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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 1950

Vol. 123 No. 1

Local Government (County Administration) Bill, 1950—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. In this Bill I propose the abolition of the county management system and its replacement by one based on popular administration.

The management system was first introduced in Cork City by the Cork City Management Act, 1929. It was extended to the other three county boroughs and to the Borough of Dún Laoghaire at various stages in the following ten years. The County Management Act, 1940, applied the system to the administrative counties, boroughs, urban districts, towns under town commissioners, and joint bodies, i.e., joint mental hospital boards and joint boards of assistance, but not to vocational education committees or committees of agriculture.

The County Management Act vested in an officer called the county manager all the functions of the local authority other than reserved functions, which include the making of a rate, the borrowing of money, the bringing into force of enactments, the disposition of property under the Municipal Corporation Acts, applications for public inquiries into extensions of boundaries, and the nomination of persons to act on other public bodies. The manager has control and supervision over officers and servants. The appointment of rate collectors by a county council was, however, reserved to the elected members of the council.

The Act contains a provision enabling the elected members of a local authority to require the manager to give effect to their wishes in a particular instance. This power can, however, be exercised only by resolution at a special meeting of which notice must be given and at which either one half the total membership of the local authority or two-thirds of the members present vote in favour of the resolution. The power does not extend to the exercise of the manager's functions in relation to staff matters, to the giving or withholding of public assistance in an individual case or to requiring the manager to take prosecutions or refrain from prosecuting in a particular instance. The manager is also obliged to furnish information in relation to the affairs of the local authority to the chairman of the local authority or to the local authority itself when requested to do so. The manager is empowered to attend meetings and to take part in discussions.

The estimates must be submitted by the manager to the local authority and may be amended by them, but, when an amendment to which the manager objects is proposed, the amendment must be considered at a special meeting.

The manager is an officer of the county council and may be suspended by resolution at a special meeting of which not less than seven days' notice is given and at which the resolution for suspension is passed by two-thirds of the members of the county council.

The Act provided for the dissolution of the boards of health and for the transfer of their functions to the county councils. Provision was made in the Public Assistance Act, 1939, for the transfer to county councils of the public assistance functions of these boards except in joint areas. Under the County Management Act, the functions of mental hospital committees were also transferred to the county councils except in cases where the mental hospital caters for a wider area than one county.

The County Management Act, 1940, the Public Assistance Act, 1939, and the Local Government Act, 1941, which consolidated and amended the law relating to officers and servants of local authorities, were brought into operation on the 26th August, 1942. The legislation thus implemented centralised the administration of local affairs in the county councils and by vesting the executive functions of the county council and the urban district councils and other elective bodies, if any, in the county, in a county manager, had the effect of transferring to one official the main part of the authority formerly possessed by a number of local bodies. In some cases two counties were grouped under one county manager.

The county management system has since its inception been the subject of considerable criticism. The main objections have been that it is undemocratic that public representatives are unaware of important aspects of administration performed by the manager, that a paid official with no representative status in whom all executive power is vested is constituted a legal part of the corporate body, membership of which was heretofore wholly dependent on election by the people. The argument put forward that financial control and general supervision rests with the local representatives had not proved convincing. When the estimates are being considered the elected representatives are presented with an estimate of expenditure proposed to be incurred by the county manager in the ensuing financial year. The council have no effective control over the expenditure and apart from the fact that a special meeting has to be called when the manager objects to an amendment of the estimate, the elected members are faced with the argument that the council have already entered into commitments or that the manager cannot effectively discharge his functions unless the estimate which he presents is accepted.

I may say, in fairness to the protagonists of the system that they never regarded it as an ideal or perfect system. The Act was at most regarded as an experiment worthy of a fair and extensive trial. I should also say that my colleagues in the Government and I quite recognise that prior to the introduction of the management system some amendment of the law was necessary to relieve the elected bodies from the burden of overloaded agendas, with resultant long sessions in which matters of detail frequently took up more time than matters of general policy and control. We recognise that smaller executive bodies, more frequent meetings and full documentation of the agenda with expert advice are needed.

The "cure" introduced for this state of affairs was, however, too radical. Local representatives resented the removal of control from their hands. The administration of many managers was, rightly or wrongly, subjected to public criticism. Successive Ministers for Local Government felt obliged to issue both general and particular admonitions warning managers that they must not exercise their functions in isolation from the public representatives who, in pursuance of their reserved functions, could, theoretically at any rate, supervise the application of the moneys which they voted for public purposes. In many cases, of course, these warnings were not necessary. Many managers displayed the utmost willingness to co-operate with their councils, to take them into their confidence and keep them informed and to consult them beforehand on important aspects of the administration. But the managers themselves were in an invidious position: they were charged by law with certain responsibilities and some of them antagonised their councils by emphasising their statutory independence. In these circumstances, local representatives could not be expected to maintain a lively interest in local administration. Many of them grew apathetic and some of those who, in other circumstances, would have taken an energetic part in local affairs would not even present themselves for election. A great deal, of course, depended on the personality of the manager, but I hold that any scheme of legislation whose success depends on so fortuitous a contingency needs amendment. When we came to consider it, we found the management system needed abolition and replacement by a new system of administration that would enable local government to be carried out efficiently and expeditiously by the people's chosen local representatives.

Apart from the change involved in the appointment of managers, many people regretted the passing in 1942 of the boards of health and public assistance. These bodies were constituted in 1925, following the abolition of boards of guardians from 1919 to 1922 and of rural district councils under the Act of 1925. The original poor law bodies, like the grand juries, had their roots deep in alien ascendancy and had little claim to popular representative status. But the bodies which replaced them in 1898 were democratic bodies and, with the widening of local government franchise, ultimately to adult suffrage, they were constituted on as democratic a basis as this House is constituted. When the functions of the boards of health and public assistance passed to the county councils and largely, in effect, to the managers, many people concerned with or interested in social problems, expansion of the health services and the relief and rehabilitation of the poor and infirm, felt that they had been deprived of a specialist, deliberative body which had rendered very significant service to the reform of the old poor law system in this country. But here, again, growing expenditure and the increasing complexity of local business demanded too much of the time and attention of these bodies: the load was becoming too great. The boards were not, however, reformed: they were abolished and replaced by the management system.

The Local Government (County Administration) Bill, now before the House, has been designed to meet both the objections to the county management system and the requirements of expeditious and efficient administration by the publicly elected councils as a whole and by their specialist committees and constituent bodies. The Bill provides that the County Management Acts, 1940 and 1942 (excepting the provisions consequential on the dissolution of boards of health) shall cease to have effect save in relation to the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. The management system in the four county boroughs is not interfered with by the provisions of the Bill, although some sections apply to all local authorities. The city management system is intended to be the subject of separate legislation.

In place of the county management system the Bill provides the machinery for an alternative system under which many functions at present discharged by county managers will be discharged by the elected members of the body or by committees elected by and composed of such members. The present county managers will become county officers and will discharge certain specified functions known as employment functions, tenancy functions and individual health functions, and will also be required to attend on the discharge by the elected members of the business of the local authority.

A county officer will be appointed for each county. He will be county officer for the county council and for every elective body (that is, borough corporation, urban district council and town commissioners) within the county. Where the functions of a joint body (a joint mental hospital authority, a joint board of public assistance, a joint library committee or a joint drainage committee) extend into two or more counties, the Minister will appoint the county officer for one of the counties to be county officer for the joint body.

The county officer will be the chief officer of every local authority for whom he performs functions. For the purposes of appointment, suspension, removal and remuneration he will be an officer of the county council only.

Existing managers of single counties will become county officers in their respective counties. The provisions contained in the County Management Acts whereby certain counties were grouped under one manager are not being continued. In these cases the Minister will appoint the manager to be county officer for one of the two counties after consultation with the councils of the two counties and the county manager. The two existing assistant county managers in Cork County will become assistant county officers and in other counties the Minister may by Order create one or more than one office of assistant county officer for the county.

Section 15 contains an important provision enabling the post of county officer to be merged in the post of county secretary on the occurrence of vacancies. This provision is intended to secure as far as possible a gradual reversion to the pre-1942 position when the county secretary was the chief officer of the county council. Where the office of county officer is vacant at the commencement of Part II of the Bill or where the office becomes vacant subsequently, the Minister may by Order transfer the functions of the county officer to the county secretary. Before making the Order the Minister must consult the council of the county and if the county secretary was appointed prior to the commencement of Part II of the Bill the Order cannot be made except with his consent. If the county secretary is appointed subsequent to the commencement of Part II of the Bill his consent to the making of a transfer Order will not be required. The Order made under the section may contain such provisions as are considered appropriate for enabling the transfer to have effect. In counties where there is one or more assistant county officer, an Order may be made transferring the functions of the county officer to either an assistant county officer or the county secretary. If the functions are transferred to an assistant county officer, then this officer will, on the occurrence of a vacancy in the office of county secretary, assume the duties of that office under the title of county secretary. An Order transferring the functions of the county officer to an assistant county officer who, before the commencement of Part II, was an assistant manager in a permanent capacity, cannot be made except with his consent.

If, on the other hand, the office of county secretary is vacant at the commencement of Part II of the Bill or becomes vacant thereafter, the Minister may by Order made after consultation with the county council transfer the functions of the county secretary to the county officer who will then be known by the title of county secretary. If the county officer is appointed by virtue of his having held in a permanent capacity the office of county manager, then the Order cannot be made without his consent.

These proposals are intended to conduce to an eventual unification of the higher responsibilities of county council staffs and to secure consequent economy in higher officers' salaries. They also explain the adoption of what I must admit is a rather nondescript title for the chief officer. The best title is "county secretary" and the title of "county officer" is one under which I hope the chief officer will labour only temporarily.

The functions of county councils and elective bodies are divided under the Bill into five classes—scheduled functions, employment functions, tenancy functions, individual health functions and executive functions. The scheduled functions of the council of a county or of an elective body will be discharged directly by the county council or the elective body. They cannot be delegated to a committee or county officer. These functions correspond generally with the reserved functions under the management system.

The employment functions are the functions relating to officers and servants, including appointment, employment, promotion, remuneration, dismissal and superannuation, other than the appointment of county rate collectors. The appointment of county rate collectors is a scheduled function and will be made as at present by the county council.

The tenancy functions are the functions relating to the selection of tenants, the making of lettings, the making of advances under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, the recovery of possession and the fixing and recovery of rents.

The individual health functions are the functions relating to decisions as to whether or not a particular individual may avail of any health service, other than medical assistance under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, and with respect to decisions as to the extent of treatment and also decisions as to the amount of any charge to be made for such treatment. Decisions relating to the admission and discharge of patients in mental institutions are also individual health functions.

The employment, tenancy and individual health functions of the council of a county or an elective body will be performed by the county officer.

The manner of exercise by the county manager or, as now proposed, by the county officer of employment functions is for the most part already governed strictly by statute and statutory regulations. The more important executive posts and all professional and technical posts are filled under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926. This Act requires these posts to be filled either by a candidate recommended by the Local Appointments Commissioners or by the promotion, within a limited period and with the sanction of the Minister, of a person holding an analogous permanent post under a local authority. In the exercise of functions relating to appointments to all these classes of posts, the county officer will, therefore, be subject strictly to a definite statutory procedure which either affords him no discretion in selection or makes his selection subject to the regulations and to the subsequent approval of the appropriate Minister.

In the case of appointments to which the Act of 1926 does not apply, the county officer will also be subject to regulations made by the Minister under the Local Government Act, 1941.

As regards suspension and dismissal of officers the position is that either the manager or the Minister may suspend an officer; only the Minister has the power of removing a suspension; and either the Minister or the manager, with the approval of the Minister, may remove an officer from office. These restrictions on the manager's powers in this regard will apply in equal manner to the powers of the county officers.

Apart, therefore, from the general control of the day-to-day work of the staff, the county officer's part in the performance of employment functions will be strictly controlled.

In the discharge of employment functions the county officer will be governed by the provisions of Section 29 of the Bill. These require him to obtain the approval of the elective body or of the appropriate executive committee of the council, as the case may be, before submitting to the appropriate Minister a proposal to create new permanent offices. Except in the case of offices the filling of which is mandatory consequent on any statute or any Order or direction given under statute, the county officer must obtain the approval of the elective body or executive committee before taking steps to fill vacancies permanently, and, where he makes a temporary appointment, must notify the elective body or executive committee who, if they so decide, can terminate the appointment.

As regards the performance of tenancy functions, the county officer will be similarly subject to strict and detailed statutory enactments or to the process of law in the courts. In the letting of houses the county officer must have regard to the character, industry, occupation, family circumstances and existing housing conditions of the applicants.

In the case of houses in urban areas the county officer will be required, wherever practicable and subject to the conditions laid down in the Housing Acts and the letting regulations, to give a special preference to applicants of the "special class", which comprise families living in one-roomed dwellings where one or more members suffer from tuberculosis, or have attained the age of 16 years, or where the dwelling has been condemned as unfit for human habitation. A next preference is to be given to other families displaced from unfit or overcrowded houses. Similar preferences must be given in the letting of labourers' cottages after a first preference, wherever practicable, has been given to persons working on the land and herdsmen. In determining the relative order of preferences the county officer is required to have regard to a report from the appropriate medical officer as to the existing housing accommodation of each applicant and as to the degree of urgency of his need for alternative accommodation.

The making of lettings, recovery of possession, making of advances, recovery of instalments and enforcement of covenants are matters governed by law and by the conditions embodied in legal instruments.

The fixing of rent is a function governed by the general finances of a housing scheme and by the particular scheme of rents determined thereunder. Differential renting schemes are, I am glad to say, becoming more numerous. In these schemes, the essential principle is a periodical revision of rent within an overriding economic maximum, according to the ability of tenants to pay. This is determined according to fixed scales embodied in the scheme, and the scheme itself, being part of the general financial basis of the work, will have previously come under review by the elected body. The fixing, revision and recovery of rent will, therefore, be carried out by the county officer under fixed rules which the local authority will already have approved.

The individual health functions which will be performed directly by the county officer or by an officer to whom such performance is delegated comprise functions such as are at present exercised in practice by the county medical officer in each county and by the resident medical superintendent of a mental hospital.

It will, therefore, be seen that the functions which the county officer will discharge without reference to the public representatives are either so regulated and controlled by statute as to give him little or no personal discretion in decisions, or are such as are not appropriate for performance in public or by a deliberative body. The county officer will be held responsible for the discharge of these functions according to whatever statutes and regulations govern them. Apart from departmental review of the manner in which the county officer carries out these functions, Section 45 of the Bill requires the county officer, at the request of a local authority or executive committee, or the chairman of such body, to give information in regard to employment and tenancy functions, including information as to the manner in which he proposes to perform the functions of selecting tenants.

The executive functions comprise functions other than scheduled functions, employment functions, tenancy functions and individual health functions. These functions are so numerous that it would be impossible fully to list them in the Bill or to recite them here in the House. Under the existing management system they are discharged by the county managers. Under the new system they will be discharged by the elected representatives.

Taking first the case of housing, executive functions will include the determination of the number of houses to be erected, the acquisition of the necessary sites, the planning of the houses, the supervision of their building (whether by contract or by direct labour), the demolition or repair of unfit houses, the maintenance of existing local authority houses, the acceptance of tenders and making of contracts for the erection or repair of houses or for materials required for housing and the acquisition of land for the provision of sites to private builders.

In so far as roads are concerned, executive functions will include all decisions in relation to the preparation and carrying out of the annual road works programme, the acceptance of tenders and the making of contracts where such are involved, the manner in which road materials are to be provided and the acquisition of lands for roads.

Under the heading town and regional planning, the executive functions will include all matters in relation to the exercise of interim control.

Under the heading public assistance, executive functions will include the granting of home assistance, the planning of public assistance institutions, and the making of contracts for new institutions and other public assistance services.

Executive functions relating to health services will include such functions as the planning of and acceptance of tenders for erection of hospitals and clinics, the adoption of health schemes, including the making of arrangements with extern institutions, the establishment of clinics, the adoption of immunisation and other schemes, contracts for supplies for all requirements for health services, including food, hospital equipment, etc.

Under the heading sanitary services, executive functions will include the initiation of schemes, the approval of plans for sanitary services, i.e., water supply schemes, sewerage schemes, sanitary conveniences, burial grounds, public baths and public lighting, the acceptance of tenders for sanitary service schemes and for equipment needed therefor and the acquisition of land.

Functions coming under the heading of general purposes, which will be executive functions, include the submission of schemes under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949, the issue of licences under the Milk and Dairies Acts and the Slaughter of Animals Acts, the selection and purchase of public library books and equipment and the making of allowances under the blind welfare scheme.

These examples of executive functions are not by any means exhaustive. They are, at best, a mere cross-section of the work which will come up for consideration and speedy decision by local bodies. Its volume has, no doubt, increased very considerably since 1942. Similarly the amount of detail involved in it is very great. To restore democratic control of this work and at the same time to maintain efficiency and expedition in its performance has been the problem to which I have had to address myself. My solution is to vest these executive functions in executive committees selected by and composed of members of the county council. The Bill also provides that urban authorities may, if they so wish, appoint executive committees. Urban bodies are in a position to meet more frequently than the county authorities.

In Part III of the Bill you will find my proposals for the constitution and procedure of executive committees. The county council is required to set up two executive committees in whom will be vested the responsibility for performance of the executive functions. These committees will be known as the general executive committee and the health executive committee. The health executive committee will perform the executive functions of the county council relating to health matters. The general executive committee will perform the executive functions of the county council relating to all matters other than health matters. Health matters are defined in the Bill as matters coming within the jurisdiction of the Minister for Health. Each committee will be composed wholly of members of the county council and will be elected annually on the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote. The numbers of members in each committee will be one-third of the members of the county council; provision is made for the appointment of a chairman and vice-chairman; the quorum is fixed at three and, subject to rules of procedure to be made by the county council, an executive committee can regulate its own procedure for the discharge of business. A report on the business transacted at each meeting must be furnished to the county council. An executive committee of the council of a county will perform the executive functions by means of an executive order signed by the chairman of the meeting at which it is decided to perform such function. It will be the duty of the county officer to submit drafts of executive orders, but the executive committee may also make orders on their own initiative or amend or reject an order submitted by the county officer.

The executive functions of an elective body will not be as numerous as those of a county council. For example, an urban district council or borough will not have any public assistance or health functions. For this reason and because they are in a better position to meet more frequently than the county committee the performance of the executive functions of an elective body is vested in the body itself but if they so desire they may appoint one or more executive committees and may delegate executive functions to them. Where an elective body appoints an executive committee, the election procedure and provisions governing discharge of functions of the executive committee will be the same as for an executive committee appointed by the county council. A delegation made by an elective body to an executive committee may be revoked at any time by the elective body.

An executive committee of the council of a county are empowered to delegate to a sub-committee, consisting of not less than three members of the executive committee, the performance of particular executive functions in relation to the whole or part of the county or the performance of all executive functions in relation to part of the county. This provision would enable sub-committees to deal with particular matters such as home assistance in different parts or in the whole of a county. The members of a sub-committee will be elected on the system of proportional representation and will go out of office at the date of the annual meeting of the county council. The procedure at meetings of a sub-committee will be regulated by rules made by the executive committee. The sub-committee must furnish a report on the business transacted at every meeting held by them to the executive committee by whom they were appointed.

An executive committee of the council of a county may also delegate to the county officer the performance of particular executive functions in relation to the whole or part of the county.

A delegation to either a sub-committee or to the county officer can be revoked by the executive committee. To keep in line with the idea of the county council as supreme authority, there is a provision that the executive committee must revoke a delegation to either a sub-committee or the county officer, if the county council pass a resolution to this effect.

Power is also given to the county council to require that an executive committee or sub-committee, or, in the case of an executive function delegated to the county officer, the county officer, as the case may be, shall perform a particular executive function in a particular way. This power can be exercised by the county council by resolution passed by a simple majority.

As I have indicated, executive functions of an elective body may be discharged by such body, but if they so desire, they may appoint one or more executive committees and may delegate executive functions to them. The election procedure and provisions governing discharge of functions will be the same as for an executive committee appointed by the county council. An elective body may also delegate particular executive functions in relation to the whole or part of the functional area of the body to the county officer. The elective body can revoke a delegation to either an executive committee or to the county officer and will have the same powers as the county council to require an executive committee or the county officer, as the case may be, to perform a particular executive function in a particular way.

Special provisions are included in Section 22 of the Bill to deal with cases where urgent business is to be transacted at meetings of executive authorities and a quorum is not present at the time and place of the meeting. Where a decision relating to the grant of home assistance in a particular case forms all or part of the business to be transacted at a meeting of an executive authority and a quorum is not present the chairman will hold a meeting and may make the decision himself. If the chairman is not present the county officer will make the decision. In so far as business other than decisions on the grant of home assistance in particular cases is concerned, the provision of the second sub-section of Section 22 are adoptive—that is, they may be applied in the rules made by the county council or elective body regulating the procedure of the executive committee or in the rules made by the executive committee of a county council regulating the procedure of an executive sub-committee. The position then will be that where a meeting has been summoned and where a quorum is not present and where the county officer certifies that a particular business before the meeting is urgent, then the chairman of the committee or sub-committee or, in his absence, the county officer may, subject to the fulfilment of any conditions incorporated in the rules of procedure, discharge such executive function.

Under existing law, local authorities have power to set up advisory committees and committees to whom they may, with the sanction of the appropriate Minister, delegate functions. These various provisions are being repealed and a new section—Section 50 —included in the Bill enabling county councils, elective bodies and executive committees of county councils to set up advisory committees to consider any matters connected with the functions of the local authority and to advise thereon. These committees may include persons who are not members of the local authority. It is expected that under the new system full use will be made by local authorities of this power. Advisory committees could be set up, say, to watch over the expenditure of a county council or elective body; to advise on the purchase of books for libraries or to advise on representations which may be made to the local authority by residents in a particular area in regard to some aspects of local government.

The county officer may attend meetings of a local authority and take part in discussions. As already mentioned, it will be his duty to submit drafts of executive orders to an executive committee or an elective body at a meeting at which executive functions are being performed. He will be included in the officers mentioned in Section 61 of the Local Government Act, 1925, whose duty it is to warn the members of a local authority whenever a proposal is made to do anything which would involve an illegal payment or a loss to the funds of the local authority. If such a proposal is passed despite objection, then the members voting for it and nobody else may be surcharged on any surcharge that may subsequently be made as a result of the decision.

Payments will be made by the county officer subject to authorisation, in so far as scheduled and executive functions are concerned, given to him by the local authority in either general or particular terms. He will not be held responsible for any payment made as a result of a decision which was taken contrary to his advice or which was taken despite objection made thereto under Section 61 of the Local Government Act, 1925.

A local authority or the chairman of a local authority can require the county officer to furnish information, advice or assistance either periodically or on a particular occasion as required. In particular the county officer may be required to furnish information in relation to receipts and expenditure and also, as previously stated, records relating to employment functions, records relating to tenancy functions and information as to the manner in which he proposes to perform the function of selecting tenants.

The estimates will be prepared by the county officer who must consult each executive committee and an estimates committee (if such a committee has been appointed) before submitting them to the county council. In the case of an elective body, he must consult an estimates committee (if one is appointed) before submitting them to the elective body. The estimates may be amended by the local authority and, as so amended, they may be passed forthwith.

A county officer may delegate any of his functions to an assistant county officer. He may delegate functions other than employment functions, tenancy functions, individual health functions or the authorisation of payments to a county secretary, a county accountant or such other officer of the council as may be approved by the Minister. Where a function (other than one of the excluded functions) relates to a borough, urban district or town, it may be delegated to the town clerk and when it relates to a joint body, to such officer of the joint body as may be approved by the Minister. Individual health functions may be delegated only to an assistant county officer or to an officer approved by the Minister for Health. The county officer cannot delegate any function which has been delegated to him by an elective body or an executive committee except with the consent of the delegating body.

A county officer may, after consultation with the chairman of the county council, appoint a person to be deputy county officer during a period of temporary absence on leave or otherwise. If, for any reason, the county officer does not appoint a deputy county officer in his absence, the Minister will appoint one. The Minister is also empowered to remove a deputy county officer.

For the purposes of his appointment, suspension and removal, the county officer will, as I have stated, be an officer of the county council only. The exercise of these powers is made a reserved function. The county council will, therefore, exercise authority over the county officer in the same way as he exercises authority over the other members of the staff of the local authority.

While the Bill does not affect the management system in Dublin City and other county boroughs, it provides that the Dublin City Manager will, by virtue of his office, become county officer for Dublin County. He will also be borough manager for the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. The administration of the Dublin Board of Assistance will also be integrated with the administration of Dublin City and County. The County Management Act, 1940, brought the Dublin Board of Assistance under the management system in the same way as other joint bodies. At the time of the coming into operation of the County Management Act, commissioners were acting in place of the board. In June, 1942, the County Management (Amendment) Act, 1942, was passed and provided that the commissioners should discharge the functions which would otherwise be discharged by the county manager. The Dublin Board of Assistance was reconstituted in 1948 and, in the same year, under the Local Government (Dublin) (Temporary) Act, a commissioner who had been discharging the duties of the board since 1942 continued under the title of chief executive officer to discharge the functions which would otherwise be discharged by the county manager for Dublin County. The Act was due to expire on the 30th June, 1949, but it has been continued by successive Orders for six-monthly periods. The Act will now be repealed and the administration of the board will be integrated with that of Dublin City and County.

There will be four Dublin assistant city managers under the Bill. The officers who will hold these posts are specified in Section 60. One of these officers is a permanent assistant city and county manager, two are acting as temporary assistant city and county managers, and the fourth is the chief executive officer for the Dublin Board of Assistance. Each of these officers will hold the amalgamated office of Dublin assistant city manager, Dublin assistant county officer and assistant borough manager for the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. The Dublin city manager will be empowered to delegate to any of these officers functions in relation to Dublin County Borough, Dublin County Council, Dún Laoghaire Borough Council, elective bodies such as the Rathdown and Balrothery Boards of assistance and joint bodies such as Grangegorman Mental Hospital Board and the Dublin Board of Assistance.

Miscellaneous matters arising out of the primary provisions of the Bill include provisions enabling an appeal against a decision affecting the remuneration, duties or conditions of service of servants of a local authority of a particular class, description or grade to be made to the elected members. The elected members will decide the appeal and to the extent to which it is confirmed by the appropriate Minister it will be binding on the county officer. Where the local authority concerned is a joint body their decision must first be confirmed by the rating authorities who defray the expenses of the local authority. Provisions enabling appeals to be made by officers of local authorities are contained in the Local Government Act, 1941.

Another provision contained in the miscellaneous part is that which enables local authorities to enter into agreements whereby one of them will perform the functions of another in cases where it is more convenient that this should be done. Local authorities have already had somewhat similar powers in this regard in relation to particular functions such as the execution of works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949. The power given by that Act is being availed of to a great extent by local authorities.

There are other miscellaneous provisions in the Bill. One amends Section 70 of the Local Government Act, 1925, to restrict the disqualification for employment of a person for remuneration by a local authority to the local authority of which he is, or has been within 12 months, a member. At present the disqualification applies also in the case of any other local authority whose functional area is, or is situate in, the same county or county borough or in any adjoining county or county borough.

Section 65 makes a temporary modification of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, to enable the Local Appointments Commissioners to set up panels of candidates for appointment to the offices mentioned therein.

The new system of administration to be set up under the Bill will encourage and enable members of local authorities to take a much more active part in local affairs and it will thus make greater demands on their time. In view of this there is a special provision in the miscellaneous part of the Bill providing that subsistence allowances will be payable to members living not less than one mile from the place of meeting. At present allowances are payable only where a member lives not less than three miles from the place of meeting.

The main objective which was kept in mind in framing this legislation was to design a system which would be democratic as well as efficient. Many lessons have been learned as to the danger of sacrificing democracy on the altar of efficiency. The democratic basis of the proposals now before the House cannot be questioned and at the same time it will be seen that the need for efficiency and expedition in the handling of local affairs has not been overlooked. An administrative machine must not be allowed to become rusty through lack of use. Neither must it be so overloaded with work that it becomes strained. The existing machinery was becoming rusty because all effective control and power had been taken from the hands of the elected representatives by the 1940 Act. Simply to repeal that Act and restore the pre-1940 system would provide an overstrained machine. The new system restores local administration in the fullest sense to the elected local representatives and provides for such devolution of the work to committees of the elected representatives as will enable it to be done expeditiously and efficiently. It has been applied in a manner calculated to achieve the fullest possible flexibility.

I have every confidence, therefore, that the public representatives will welcome their new responsibilities under the Bill and that they will carry out their public duties with conscientiousness and zeal. The managers are men of experience and ability. It is not their fault if they were given an unpopular status as a non-representative part of the corporate entity of the local body. Under this Bill, they will be integrated into the local service as officials employed and controlled by the elected bodies. I have every reason to believe that they will welcome their new positions and that they will give good service to their local authorities. So, I am sure, will all the local staffs whose establishment, mode of recruitment and conditions of service have been improved so materially in the last 25 years.

I have good grounds, therefore, for believing that this Bill will provide a system making for efficient and democratic administration of local affairs and as such I commend it to the House.

Few people will agree with everything which the Minister has said in presenting this Bill— few people, particularly those who are familiar with the problems of local administration—but I think all of us will agree that the County Management Act of 1940 was, in many of its provisions, experimental. The principle was sound; the manner in which that principle should be embodied in practical administrative machinery was, of course, one for experiment. Therefore, the approach of the Minister for Local Government, who was responsible for drafting the Act, and of the Government of the day which submitted it to Dáil Éireann, was a highly empirical one.

The various circular letters which issued from time to time during the period the Fianna Fáil Administration was in office, pointing out to the elected representatives their particular duties under the Bill and emphasising how important it was that they should discharge them, while at the same time enjoining upon the county managers the need to maintain the closest possible contact with the elected bodies, indicated that naturally at the beginning, when this principle was being embodied on such a wide scale throughout the country, certain difficulties would be encountered and certain adjustments would require to be made. But the recognition of these difficulties and of the need to make the adjustments to which I have referred was no justification whatever for deceiving the country in the manner in which the Minister now proposes to do, by suggesting that the managerial principle has been thrown overboard. Indeed, if one might look at it, there is very little change that this Bill does make in the existing system; and while some of the changes are for the better we certainly are not going to concede that all of them are improvements.

The Minister has many engaging qualities and I think among the more engaging of them is his sense of humour. Certainly, his self-control must have been strained to the utmost when he was presenting this Bill to the Dáil and to the public as constituting a revolution in local administration. In order that he might give some verisimilitude to that pose, it was necessary that he should attack the County Management Act. He described the Act as undemocratic. In view of the fact that the Bill proposes to repeal the County Management Act of 1940, it might be as well if we would consider some of the provisions of that Act and show the extent to which the control of the elected body over the county manager was, in fact, almost absolute. We will take Section 26, which might be described as defining the council's power of initiative. Section 26 reads:—

"The council of a county or an elective body may at any time by resolution require the county manager for such county or the manager for such elective body (as the case may be) to prepare and submit to such council or body plans and specifications for the execution of any particular work specified in such resolution which can lawfully be executed by such council or body together with an estimate of the probable cost of the execution of such work, and whenever such council or body passes any such resolution such county manager or such manager (as the case may be) shall, as soon as conveniently may be, prepare and submit to such council or body plans and specifications and an estimate in accordance with such resolution."

There is the absolute power of initiative. The council can order the manager to prepare the plans for any particular work that the council desire to have carried out and can compel the county manager to submit an estimate for the work.

The next thing is that, as the Minister himself said without any undue emphasis, the manager is bound to give any information that the council or the chairman of the council may require, whenever requested by the council to do so. Section 27 of the Act lays that down and reads:—

"Every county manager shall whenever requested by the council of his county or by an elective body for which he is the manager or by the chairman of such council or of any such body so to do, afford to such council, body, or chairman (as the case may require) all such information as may be in the possession or procurement of such county manager in regard to any act, matter, or thing appertaining to or concerning any business or transaction of such council or body (as the case may be) which is mentioned in such request."

Could there be fuller power of requisition than that, fuller power to demand and secure information from the county manager?

The Minister has referred in his introductory speech to the fact that among the executive functions which would be embodied in the elected body was that of examining tenders. Section 28 of the 1940 Act provides:—

"(1) Any council of a county or any elective body may, if and whenever it thinks fit, make regulations prescribing the procedure to be followed in regard to the reception and examination of all or any particular class or classes of tenders for the supply of goods, the execution of works, or any other thing for which such council or body may lawfully have invited the submission of tenders."

All regulations under this section shall be subject to the approval of the Minister, but then sub-section (3) goes on to say:—

"Whenever and so long as any regulations made by the council of a county or by an elective body under this section are in force, all tenders to which such regulations apply received by such council or body (as the case may be) shall be received and examined in accordance with the procedure prescribed by such regulations."

I do not see that the Minister is going to make any effective practical change in that existing position. It may be true in some cases that the councils did not make the regulations, but they had the power and if they did not make them the fault lies not with the managerial principle but with the members of the elected bodies concerned.

Section 29 of the Act goes on to provide the power of direction:—

"(1) Any council of a county or any elective body, at a meeting specially summoned for the purpose under this section, may by resolution proposed and passed in accordance with this section require any particular act, matter, or thing specifically mentioned in such resolution and which such council or the county manager for such county or such elective body or the manager for such elective body (as the case may be) can lawfully do, to be done in exercise or performance of the executive functions of such county or body."

Naturally, notice of an intention to propose a resolution of that sort, which it was mandatory on the manager to obey, had to be a resolution of which due notice was given and had to be a resolution which had the support of the majority of the council.

There were, certainly, reservations and limitations as to the things which the council could direct the manager to do, but they were limitations which were imposed in the interest of clean, efficient and impartial administration. They were, first, that the resolution should not apply or extend to the exercise or performance of any power or function which was generally required to be exercised by the manager, that is to say, they could not by resolution deprive the manager of any of the responsibilities and duties which were imposed upon him by the Act; next, the resolution could not apply or extend to the exercise or performance of any power, function or duty imposed on the county manager in relation to the officers or servants of a county council, or the elective body, or the control, supervision, service, remuneration, privileges or superannuation of such officers or servants or any of them. I shall come back again to this point in a moment.

If one reads the Bill one will find there that limitation is written into the Bill and written into it in an even more rigorous form than that in which it appears in the original Act, requiring the county manager to give or withhold public assistance to or from any particular individual. That, I think, is one of the changes which is being made in the Bill. I think that under the Bill the board of assistance will henceforward settle what assistance is to be given to any particular individual. I doubt whether on the whole that will make for very clean or impartial administration. I doubt very much whether, in fact, the principle will not be used to buy votes and support for political Parties and persons who wish to procure political support by improperly using public funds.

The next limitation is to—

"require a county manager to prosecute or refrain from prosecuting any particular person or to discontinue any particular prosecution."

I think that is still in the Bill. Those were the limitations which were imposed then. Mark what the elected body can have done under the Act. Under the power of initiation, they can initiate any scheme and require the manager to prepare plans, specifications and estimates for any particular public work which they wish to have carried out. They can appeal to the county manager or manager for the elective body, as the case might be, to give them information relating to any matter within his power of procurement relating to the business of the council. It might not be any harm for us to turn at this stage to Section 45 of the Bill, and see what information the county officer, as he will be called, will be required to furnish on request by the council of a county, or an executive authority, or by the chairman. Section 45 reads:—

"Where a request is made by the council of a county, an elective body or an executive authority, or by the chairman of such council, body or authority, to the county officer for information, advice or assistance (including information, advice or assistance to be given at specified intervals), the county officer shall comply with the request so far as is reasonably possible."

Just contrast that with the phrasing of Section 27 of the Act:—

"Every county manager shall whenever requested by the council of his county or by an elective body for which he is the manager or by the chairman of such council or of any such body so to do, afford to such council, body, or chairman (as the case may require) all such information as may be in the possession or procurement of such county manager in regard to any act, matter or thing appertaining to or concerning any business or transaction of such council or body (as the case may be) which is mentioned in such request."

Mark that the Act requires the manager to give all such information as may be in his possession or procurement appertaining to any business or transaction of the council—all information within his procurement relating to any business of the council. Could anything be wider than that? In the Bill, on the other hand, the manager is individually bound to give such information, advice or assistance "so far as is reasonably possible".

What does that mean?

So far as I can see it certainly means a limitation upon the council's power to procure information; it certainly means a decrease in the responsibility of the county manager to keep the council or the local authority informed. Let us go a little bit further. What do we find? In sub-section (2) we find this definition:—

"In sub-section (1) of this section, the word `information' includes—

(a) information relating to receipts and expenditure,

(b) records relating to employment functions,

(c) records relating to tenancy functions, and

(d) information as to the manner in which the county officer proposes to perform the function of selecting tenants."

I think that, even though these words are not specifically limiting or restrictive, they will be found in practice to delimit the amount of information which the county officer is bound under the Act to give to the council or to the chairman of the council. I certainly think that both the spirit and the letter there is much narrower than Section 27 of the existing Act.

Let us go on now to examine the question of financial control which is, of course, all-important in a matter of this kind. The Minister suggests that as the Act stands at present the power of financial control over the county manager is absolute in so far as under the existing law a local authority has control over its annual expenditure. I think it is well for us to bear in mind the fact that by reason of the numerous duties and responsibilities which have been imposed on local authorities the zone in which they have what might be described as absolute financial discretion is strictly limited. The Legislature has from time to time imposed on local authorities duties and functions; it has imposed upon them also the concomitant function and the duty of providing the finances necessary to enable these functions to be discharged. Therefore, so far as the vast bulk of local expenditure is concerned, most of it is expenditure which is mandatory upon the local authority and expenditure over which the local authority has no discretion whatsoever. Within the comparatively narrow limits in which the local authority has discretion, let us see now how this is dealt with under the existing Act and how it is proposed to be dealt with in the Bill.

Section 23 of the County Management Act provides:—

"Every manger for an elective body shall, for each local financial year, cause to be prepared during the prescribed period and in the prescribed form an estimate (in this Act referred to as an estimate of expenses) showing the amounts which, in his opinion, will be necessary to meet the expenses and provide for the liabilities and requirements of such elective body during the local financial year then next ensuing."

I am afraid this will be rather tedious but it is essential that the members should have immediately in juxtaposition in their own minds the terms of the existing statute and the terms of the proposed Bill with which it is proposed to replace the existing statute. Under the Bill, Section 40, which relates to the estimate of expenses of the county council, lays it down:—

"The county officer shall, for each local financial year, cause to be prepared during the prescribed period and in the prescribed form an estimate (in this Act referred to as an estimate of expenses) showing the amounts which, in his opinion, will be necessary to meet the expenses and provide for the liabilities and requirements of the council of a county during the local financial year then next ensuing."

There one has the same words except for the fact that in Section 23 of the Act the words "elective body" are used and in Section 40 of the proposed Bill the words "county council" are used. Otherwise the phrasing is identical in both instances. There is not so much as a comma changed.

Section 39 does.

It does. I am coming back to that.

I am sorry. I did not mean to interrupt.

The Act goes on to say that:—

"Every estimate of expenses prepared in pursuance of this section shall be considered by the elective body to which it relates at a meeting of such elective body at which the manager for such elective body shall be present and which shall be held at the prescribed time."

There is, I should say, however, one difference, but it is merely a difference, I think, in form. Sub-section (2) of Section 40 of the Bill reads:—

"Before an estimate of expenses for the council of a county is prepared in pursuance of this section—

(a) the county officer shall consult each of the executive committees of the council with regard to the estimate, and

(b) where a committee composed wholly of members of the council has been appointed under Section 50 of this Act to consider and advise the council on the estimate, the county officer shall consult that committee with regard to the estimate."

Does not everybody know that every county manager who has a proper appreciation of his relationship to his council will consult his council, informally perhaps, before he prepares the estimate? The only thing here is that the consultation is made mandatory. It does not affect the ultimate situation. As I have said, sub-section (2) of Section 23 of the Act says that—

"every estimate of expenses prepared in pursuance of the section shall be considered by the elective body."

We have, in sub-section (3) of the Bill, the same sort of proviso, that an estimate of expenses prepared in pursuance of the section shall be considered by the council concerned at a meeting.

Then, there is the other provision which appears in both the Bill and the Act, that not less than seven days before the day on which an estimates meeting of the council of the county is to be held, the county officer shall deposit in the offices of the council a copy of the estimate of expenses, so that, in fact, so far as a difference between Section 23 of the Act and Section 40 of the Bill is concerned, there is no practical difference between them.

Section 24 of the Act provides that—"at an estimates meeting of the council of the county or an elective body such council shall consider the estimates and may (subject to the subsequent provisions of this section) by resolution, amend, whether by addition, omission or variation, the estimate of expenses required by the Act."

The Bill, on the other hand, says in Section 42:—

"At an estimates meeting of the council of a county or an elective body the council or body—

(a) may, by resolution, amend, whether by addition, ommission or variation, the estimate of expenses, and

(b) shall, by resolution, adopt the estimates of expenses either (as the case may require) without amendment or with the amendments made therein under paragraph (a) of this section."

Paragraph (c) of Section 24 of the Act says that an estimates meeting of the council—

"shall, by resolution, determine, in accordance with such estimate of expenses as so adopted, the rates in the pound to be levied for the several purposes specified in such estimate."

We have exactly the same sort of provision in paragraph (c) of Section 42 of the Bill. But there is a further provision in the Act which has been omitted, and apparently the Minister takes credit to himself for having made the omission. Sub-section (2) of Section 24 of the Act says:—

"Whenever at an estimates meeting of the council of a county or of an elective body, an amendment of the estimate of expenses required by this Act to be considered at such meeting is proposed and the county manager for such county or the manager for such elective body (as the case may be) is of opinion that such amendment, if made, would seriously prejudice the efficient or the economical performance of the duties of such council or elective body, the said county manager or manager (as the case may be) shall at such meeting state his objection to such amendment and his reasons therefor, and thereupon such council or elective body shall consider such objection and either shall decide at such meeting not to make such amendment or shall adjourn, in accordance with the next following sub-section of this section, the further consideration of such amendment."

Now, what is detrimental to the independence, discretion or judgment of the council in that section? This Bill makes it quite clear that, in relation to the most important functions of the council, the county officer is going to be the executive officer of the council. All that sub-section (2) of Section 24 of the Act says is, that if the council is going to reduce the estimate to such an extent that the county manager feels that the efficient administration of the county services is going to be prejudiced thereby, he is bound to call the attention of the council to that fact. No such proviso appears in Section 42 of the Bill. Apparently, if there is some political advantage to be gained by doing it, the estimates may be cut and a lower rate may be struck in order that whoever happens to be the predominant party in the council at the time may secure political advantage by deluding the ratepayers into the belief that they have made sufficient provision for carrying on the work of the county council, and the county officer cannot direct the attention of the members of the council or the attention of the ratepayers to the fact that this economy, this reduction in expenditure, is going to be made at the expense of efficient and economical administration. The Minister thinks that is an advantage. The Minister thinks that, in some way, the cause of democracy is being served if, in that way, public representatives are allowed to delude themselves and to fool the people who sent them there. That is being done, let me repeat again, in the name of democracy.

We have both in the Act and in the Bill sections relating to the limitation on expenditure. Section 25 of the Act says:—

"The council of a county or an elective body may, at any time after they have adopted . . . an estimate of expenses for any local financial year, consent by resolution to the expenditure of money or the incurring of a liability in excess of the expenditure for any particular purpose specified in such estimate in respect of such financial year."

Precisely the same wording, I think, appears in Section 43 of the Bill.

But let us turn and see the amount of financial independence which is going to be conferred on the elective body by Section 39 of the Bill. I do not think you will find in the present County Management Act any provision like it. The importance of it, of course, is related to the fact that the Minister has told us that the one purpose he has had in mind in drafting and introducing the Bill is to restore democratic control in all local affairs, to relieve the members of local authorities of the sort of stranglehold or grip which county managers were supposed to have had upon them hitherto. Listen to this, if anybody thinks that the members of local authorities are going to be top dogs in relation to questions of expenditure:—

"Payments made by the council of a county or an elective body shall be subject to authorisation by an order signed by the county officer and countersigned by the appropriate nominated officer."

Now, sub-section (5).

"Payments made by the council of a county or an elective body shall be subject to authorisation by an order signed by the county officer and countersigned by the appropriate nominated officer."

So that the council cannot make payments directly. It can only make such payments on an authorisation order signed by its county officer and countersigned by the appropriate nominated officer. Who is this appropriate nominated officer? Do the House think he is going to be nominated by the council? Not at all.

"The Minister shall by Order nominate (either generally in respect of all councils of counties or particularly in respect of each such council) an officer of every council of a county to be the nominated officer for the county for the purposes of this section, and may, in respect of any such council, nominate different officers to be such nominated officers for different purposes."

So the extent to which autonomy is going to be restored to local authorities is that, first of all, all payments to be made are to be subject to authorisation by an order signed by the county officer and countersigned by an appropriate officer nominated by the Minister. It seems to me that the Minister is going to exercise a greater degree of control over local authorities than any Minister has even dared in the past and some of us may perhaps have been a little venturesome in that respect.

Let us see the close parallel that exists between some other sections of the County Management Act, 1940, and the Bill which is now before the Dáil. The Minister, when he was speaking, rather indicated, I think, that the scheduled functions which were functions definitely reserved to the council had been substantially expanded or that it was proposed substantially to increase the matters in relation to which powers would be specifically reserved to the council by this legislation. These powers which were called "reserved functions" in the County Management Act are termed in the Bill "scheduled functions". There is a list of scheduled functions at the back of the Bill and they number 37. As I say, they were called "reserved functions" in the Act; they are called "scheduled functions" in the Bill. How many are new? What additional functions has the Minister scheduled? So far as I can see—I may have erred to the extent of one or two—the number of new functions which are specifically reserved to the local authorities under the Bill is two, which are numbered respectively 34 and 35 in the Schedule. No. 34 relates to matters under Section 58 of the Bill, the marginal reference note to which is: "Appeals on behalf of servants." Section 59 refers to the power which is given for one local authority to delegate the exercise of its functions to another local authority—a matter which is not of very great practical importance from the point of view of what the Minister has described as democracy, but which might be of substantial importance from the point of view of proper administration. If you give power to a local authority to delegate its functions to another local authority, you may find yourself in some difficulty in providing for the full and adequate discharge of the functions which have been so delegated.

I shall come back to Section 58. I would prefer to turn now to the functions which are definitely to be performed by the county officer. These functions, I think, are three. They are functions the exercise of which is specifically reserved to the county officer— and these are the employment functions, the tenancy functions, the individual health functions. The tenancy functions are set out in Section 25 of the Bill which provides—

"The tenancy functions of the council of a county or an elective body shall be the functions of the county or body with respect to cottages, houses and other dwellings provided under the Labourers Acts, 1883 to 1948, or the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, 1890 to 1948, or in respect of which advances are made under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, 1899 to 1948, which relate to the following matters:"

It will be seen that tenancy functions cover the whole content of our housing code. They refer to the following matters:—

"(a) selection of tenants,

(b) making of lettings,

(c) recovery of possession,

(d) making of advances,

(e) recovery of instalments of annuities on mortgage payments,

(f) fixing, revision and recovery of rent,

(g) enforcement or waiver of covenants or conditions (including statutory conditions),

(h) disposal of cottages, houses and other dwellings."

Section 30 of the Bill reads:—

"The tenancy functions of the council of a county or an elective body shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be performed by the county officer."

There is not very much restoration of the power of disposal of the council over its own property as far as Sections 25 and 30 are concerned. I do not think that they make any substantial change in the position; I do not think that they ought to make any substantial change in the position. I think that, taking it all in all, with such safeguards as will be afforded by alert supervision on the part of the members of the elective authority, the present method of allocating cottages and tenancies and dealing with questions of that sort is as reasonably sound and clean and free from the risk of corruption as can be devised. I am not suggesting for a moment that individuals, whether they be county managers or members of elective bodies, may not prove weak in the face of temptation, but the real safeguards in regard to matters of administration of this character rest in there being alert, effective and fearless supervision on the part of those sent to local authorities as representatives of the ratepayers. As far as tenancy functions are concerned, I do not see any substantial change in the position—I may be wrong; I perhaps have not studied it closely.

Take employment functions. I have already referred to the powers of requisition which the council of a county or the elective body of a local authority have in relation to matters and to acts which they can compel the manager to execute on their behalf. Among the matters reserved to the county managers specifically by Section 29 and in regard to which the elective body has no power of interference —in theory, at any rate—are matters in relation to the officers or servants of such council or body, or the control, supervision, service, remuneration, privileges or superannuation of such officers or servants or any of them. That is in the 1940 Act.

In Section 24 of the Bill we have employment functions defined in the following manner:—

"The employment functions of the council of a county or an elective body shall be the functions (excluding scheduled functions) of the council or body relating to persons employed, to be employed or formerly employed by the council or body (whether as officers, as servants or on the basis of fees, commission or taxed costs), including in particular, functions relating to appointment or employment, promotion, service, duties, control, supervision, status, remuneration, privileges, removal or dismissal, suspension and superannuation."

In Section 29 of the Bill, sub-section (1), it is laid down that:—

"The employment functions of the council of a county or elective body shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be performed by the county officer."

Again, no change is made in the existing situation and I certainly am not advocating that such a change should be made. There are, however, one or two minor amendments—perhaps "refinements" might be a better way of describing them—in relation to this question of the exercise by the county officer of these employment functions. It is stated, first of all:—

"The county officer shall not submit any proposal to increase the number of permanent officers under the council of a county or an elective body for the sanction of such Minister as may be empowered to sanction the proposal save with the approval either of the appropriate executive committee of such council or of the elective body (as the case may be)."

In theory and principle I think that is excellent but we all know in practice what is going to happen; the council is going to be told as it has been told frequently in the past and as it is being told to-day: "You have certain functions to carry out. You must carry those out or otherwise we will have an inquiry and you may be dissolved. In order to enable you to carry out these functions, you want such and such officers to be appointed at such and such rates of remuneration and therefore you must take steps to create these posts and appoint these officers." Naturally, the council, most councils being willing to co-operate to a reasonable degree with the central authority in a matter of this sort, proceeds to give effect to the injunctions, admonitions or representations of the central authority and provides the necessary officers. I have never yet heard of any county manager proposing substantially to increase his staff without having first of all secured the acquiescence, if not the open consent, of his county council to such increases.

There is a certain change, however, not of great substance, proposed in sub-section (3) of Section 29 which states:—

"Where a vacancy occurs in a permanent office under a council of a county or an elective body, the county officer shall not take any steps to fill the vacancy permanently save with the approval either of the appropriate executive committee of such council or of the elective body (as the case may be)."

And concomitant with that, sub-section (4) which says:—

"Where the county officer makes a temporary appointment to an office under the council of a county or an elective body, he shall, at their next meeting, inform the appropriate executive committee of such council or the elective body (as the case may be) and, if at such meeting such executive committee or elective body so decide, the appointment shall terminate."

I think, perhaps, that on the whole the good features of sub-sections (3) and (4) outweigh the bad. I think if I had been drafting this I would not go so far as to say: "the appointment shall terminate." I would have given the county officer reasonable time within which to secure an appropriate person to fill the temporary appointment. I would not have left the coach to run on three wheels in the manner in which sub-section (4) here proposes. It is a minor amendment, one which I would certainly have embodied in any amending Bill, carried out in principle and I do not see that we have any reason to object. I do not think, however, that the minor amendment justifies all the printing that has gone into this Bill and the labour which the Minister and some members of his Party have done to delude the public as to what they are really doing in relation to this County Administration Bill.

What are you worried about? We are going to sack the lot.

The next functions to which I would refer are the individual health functions and there again I am not going to weary the House by reading out the individual health functions which are defined in Section 26 of the Bill, but you will see if you turn to Section 31 that the individual health functions of a council again are to be performed by the county officer.

Then we have the executive functions. The executive functions are defined in the following terms:—

"The executive functions of a county or an elective body shall be the functions of the council or body other than scheduled functions, employment functions, tenancy functions and individual health functions."

So, when we take the scheduled functions set out here which were formerly reserved functions, tenancy functions, employment functions and individual health functions and reserve three of these four categories of functions to the county manager and do not extend the list of reserved functions as it existed in the 1940 Act in any substantial way and see the widespread restoration of democratic control about which the Minister has been talking, it would seem to me, in fact, that one great confidence trick is being worked. We were told when the Coalition was formed that what had bought the Labour Party, and particularly the then National Labour Party, were the promises of the repeal of the County Management Act.

You were told that we would not stay six weeks here.

Who has been sold now? Who has been sold, except the gentlemen who sold themselves? They call this a county administration Bill. We called it a county management Act. They call him the county officer. We called him the county manager. The old Fine Gael policy still prevails. It was Fine Gael who first introduced the managerial principle. I think it was a good thing—one of the things for which they can claim credit. When they went to the country in 1932 and 1933, and, I think, even in 1937, they were promising that they would extend this managerial system all over the country. They were not in office to do it, but we were, and we approached the problem when we came into office in a very different way from the way in which the Coalition approached its problems, the country's problems, when they took office in 1948.

Having studied the principle and having been here when the other Bills were going through the House and having known how complicated and complex local administration had become, we said: "That is one good thing Fine Gael did when they were in office." They introduced the managerial system into local government. We believed that local government and local services cannot be carried on efficiently in the oldfashioned way and, therefore, even though it was a Fine Gael measure at the start, we adopted it and applied it—not to Dublin, because the Dublin City Management Act was passed in 1931—but to Limerick and Waterford first and then in due course and in a tentative and empirical way—let me make that quite clear—to local government as a whole throughout the whole of the country.

We were always aware of the fact that the cap would have to be fitted to the head, so to speak, that the suit would have to be fitted to the man, that adjustments would have to be made as experience showed what adjustments and amendments were necessary; and, therefore, our attitude in relation to this Bill is that, in so far as there are good things in it, we are quite prepared to welcome it, but in so far as it is an attempt to deceive a section of the people and particularly that section who voted in support of the Minister in the past, we think it is a rather despicable sort of trick.

Beyond that, I do not intend to say anything in criticism of the Bill. Perhaps I have over-stated it in saying that, because there is one section I want to refer to and I want to refer to it because I think it is a section which is designed to appeal to the servants and employees of local authorities. That section is Section 58, which says:—

"(1) Where a local authority have, whether before or after the commencement of this section, made a decision affecting the remuneration, duties or conditions of service of servants of the local authority of any particular class, description or grade, the following provisions shall have effect:—

(a) an appeal against the decision may be made on behalf of such servants to the local authority,

(b) the local authority shall either refuse the appeal or make a new decision in lieu of the decision against which the appeal is taken."

I should be glad if the Minister would be good enough to explain precisely what is the effect of this section. What exactly does it contemplate? We have Section 58, which seems to hold out some sort of right of appeal from the local authority to the local authority itself, after the local authority has made a decision, and then we have Section 24, which says that the employment functions shall be the functions of the council relating to persons employed, to be employed or formerly employed by the council or body

"as officers, as servants or on the basis of fees, commission or taxed costs, including, in particular, functions relating to appointment or employment, promotion, service, duties, control, supervision, status, remuneration, privileges, removal or dismissal, suspension and superannuation."

That would seem to cover every aspect of a man's relationship to his employer. I do not see that there is any aspect of that relationship which is not covered by Section 24. We come then to Section 29 where we find that the employment functions shall be performed by the county officer. It would seem, therefore, that, in so far as the local authority cannot interfere with remuneration, supervision, control, allocation of duties or anything else, Section 58 is nugatory, but I do not know.

I should like to have the effect of this section explained and I should like to have it explained, particularly in relation to Part II of the Local Government Act, 1941. Under that Part of that Act, and particularly under Sections 19, 20 and 21, it is the Minister who determines remuneration, who regulates payments and amount of travelling expenses, who determines hours of duty, who prescribes the procedure to be followed in making appointments and who, amongst other things, makes regulations governing the continuance in or cesser of office. Under Section 19, every regulation made by the Minister has the force of law and again, under Section 20, it is the appropriate Minister, whoever he may happen to be—the Minister for Health, the Minister for Local Government or the Minister for Social Welfare, as the case may be—who defines duties and who may assign particular duties. It would seem to me —again, I do not know—that the local authority has very little room and very little discretion in matters relating to remuneration, duties or conditions of service of servants of the local authority of any particular class, description or grade.

If the local authority, at the estimates meeting, reduced the rates and if, accordingly, all remuneration would have to be reduced proportionately, I think perhaps that there might be some opportunity to exercise the rights under Section 58, but I confess that—I do not quite appreciate how there is, in some way, under the section a really effective right given to officers of local authorities which they do not at the moment possess—I do not see how the section is going to operate. I hope once again that it has not been inserted merely for the purpose of making officers of local authorities believe they are getting something under this Bill when, in fact, they are getting nothing. I have said that I do not intend to criticise the Bill any further. There are a number of other matters which will arise when we come to consider the Bill section by section. There are some things in the Bill which I think are good. I think it is quite a good thing to set up these committees, but it is not new. Under the County Management Act, the councils at any time could have set up committees for certain purposes. That it is made mandatory upon them to set up at least the general executive committee and the health committee is a good thing.

What will the council do when these are functioning?

That is a matter which, I trust, the Minister will explain. When we were considering what amendments in local government might be necessary in view of the setting up of the new Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare, I had suggested in a tentative way that perhaps we might divide the membership of the county councils into three committees, one which would deal with local government matters simpliciter, one which would deal with health matters, and one which would deal with social welfare, but the thing had not been worked out and perhaps it might not have proven to be a practicable proposition in the end. But I think that perhaps there is something to be said for allocating to the members of the council certain definite responsibilities in relation to health and in relation to the general business of the council. My colleague and friend, Deputy Smith, who is chairman of a county council, and has been a member of a county council for a great number of years, seems to be sceptical about the advantages which might accrue from setting up these committees. So far as I am concerned, I think it would be worth while giving them a trial.

There are one or two other matters which we will not differ very much upon when we come to consider them. We do not propose to divide on the Second Reading of the Bill. We prefer to consider it in greater detail, clause by clause, as I have said. The only thing that we regret is that so much parliamentary time and energy should have been devoted to creating the impression that this is a measure which is going to produce a widespread revolution in local government administration throughout the country.

What about the corruption?

The Deputy had better not get on to that. Those sections of the population who want to get rid of the County Management Act are the very people who traded in corruption before.

Deputy O'Leary must cease interrupting.

I do not want to get on to that. I do not want to discuss this Bill on that particular plane, but if Deputy O'Leary wants to have this issue of corruption and the possibilities of corruption which may be opened up under some sections of this Bill, I am quite prepared to discuss it, but I will discuss it with the gloves off and without regard to Deputy O'Leary's feelings or the feelings of those who sit with him.

Who appointed the county managers?

I have warned Deputy O'Leary already. He has been interrupting for the past ten or 15 minutes and he had better cease.

I do not want to give the enemies of this country any handle by alleging that local authorities were generally corrupt. They were nothing of the sort. There were bad elements in some of them and we tried to get rid of them and we did get rid of them I think. I do hope that one of the consequences of the change that is being made in this Bill will not be to open again the avenue to those unprincipled persons who abused the confidence which misguided members of the public placed in them. Having said so much, I will sit down and allow some others who are not as familiar with the practical operation of local administration as I am to contribute to the debate.

Labour members on all occasions, in this House and outside it, opposed the carrying on of either city or county local administration by managers and I think clearly indicated on all such occasions that if the opportunity ever arose advantage would be taken of it to restore the original position in so far as that might be possible. It is fitting, therefore, despite what Deputy MacEntee has said, that a Labour Minister should be responsible for this particular measure going through the House.

The speech of Deputy MacEntee was interesting on the whole. Considering his intimate association and relationship with county managership during the last ten years, his speech might very well be understood. Perhaps the most pleasant portion of that speech was his intimation that it was not the intention to divide on the Second Reading. In view of what Deputy MacEntee has intimated, I am hopeful that we may get a discussion on this Bill such as we had on other Bills prior to the Recess, which will ensure that there will be constructive judgment on all stages of the Bill so that it may be a worth-while measure when it leaves the House. Fortunately, on all sides of the House there are people who may be regarded as experts—I am not one—on this question of local government. The Minister will be exceedingly fortunate, therefore, if these people will discuss this measure in an impartial way.

Deputy MacEntee made two or three points with which I had intended to deal. One was in connection with the list of scheduled services to which he referred rather cynically as indicating that there was no addition to the reserved services under the old councils in the list now incorporated in the Bill. The answer to that particular point is that after the detailed duties allotted to the new county officers there remain what is described in the Bill as executive functions and these executive functions, plus the reserved functions, are to be exercised by the council. As Deputy Hickey remarked to me a moment ago, notwithstanding the fact that it was necessary to produce a Bill of this extensive character, the question to be posed in this House is how to provide the managers for the councils throughout the country instead of providing them in the form we have seen; in other words, that we should clothe our new authorities with the powers and responsibilities which have been withheld during the last ten years. The burden of Deputy MacEntee's case was that under the County Management Act things which this Bill seeks to do could have been done. I venture to say that his colleagues sitting behind him most certainly would not agree with him on that point.

Deputy MacEntee also referred to Section 79 and to the question of limitation of authority in respect of finance as far as the new councils are concerned. In regard to Section 39, there is at least one point of agreement between Deputy MacEntee and myself and I shall refer to it later. In regard to the point that he made that the authority was restricted to a particular authorising officer, the sub-section must be read in conjunction with sub-section (5), which reads:

"Payments arising out of the performance of scheduled or executive functions shall be made pursuant to a decision of the council of a county, elective body or executive authority (as the case may be) given in either general or particular terms."

That gives complete and absolute financial authority to the council. I am in agreement with Deputy MacEntee that there has been a growing tendency for years past to convert local government into what is very largely a central authority—to such an extent that, in fact, the term "local government" is very largely a misnomer. It seems to me that when the Minister seeks to nominate a particular officer to do a certain thing, at the same time setting up an authority with complete and absolute powers, one intention is in conflict with the other. That is why I say that the term "local government" is very largely a misnomer. The machinery of the Custom House, as we understand it, irrespective of who is there, is spreading its tentacles —if not by a form of attraction, by compulsion—to ensure that even minor and petty matters come within its scope. In so far as that tendency is exemplified in this particular section, I am in agreement with the Deputy who has drawn attention to it.

With regard to the question of staff, Deputy MacEntee referred, in particular, to the function of the county officer under this Bill. He referred to the question of staff and to the question of tenancies and he observed that, in effect, there was very little change. There is a change and a very vital change, as the Deputy appreciates. He referred to one change in his concluding remarks: there are at least two others and I think he adverted to them. A new permanent office cannot be set up under this Bill without the authority of the county authority. Even where the county officer is authorised to employ a person in a temporary capacity, that temporary employment must be reported at a subsequent meeting—and let it be noted that the council can cancel that employment if they so desire. Then, again, there is the question of the appeals board. The Labour members of this House have already, on particular debates on local government in this House, strongly pointed out that there was a hiatus between the position of the city manager in dealing with his staff and the subsequent reporting of a particular proceeding to the Minister of the day. I think that Deputy MacEntee will, on reflection— and without making reference to any particular Minister—agree with that. There is a danger from the point of view of the individual of the staff concerned that if he is adversely affected and is the subject of a report to the Minister of the day, that report can be coloured in such a way as to affect adversely the influence of the individual concerned. That particular deficiency, if I might so describe it, is not being removed in connection with this Bill under the appeals board, as provided.

My approach to this Bill is that undoubtedly all the members cannot be telling lies or making exaggerated statements and that everyone who has had experience will tell you that in most of the counties they are subject almost entirely to the dictates of the manager. I agree with Deputy MacEntee, with regard to previous legislation, that the time had arrived when a review of local administration —say, as we understood it ten years ago—should be undertaken and when adjustments of a kind suited to the conditions of the day might be made. However, I am convinced that there were no grounds whatever for the violent change which was made in county and city administration legislation. To appreciate the action then taken, one must bear in mind, in relation to all the legislation previously bearing on these Acts, that one individual was clothed in almost despotic powers. Actually, the reverse is recited in this Bill because the responsibilities are now being placed on the representatives of the ratepayers. Adjustments might have been made and, in that respect, it is no harm to contemplate for a moment what has taken place across the water in so far as local administration is concerned. They have had long years of experience on the other side of the Channel of local administration, and I think everybody in this House must have realised, if not from observation from close association, that local administration in Great Britain has been a success. They have found no great reason this year, last year or in previous years to undertake a violent change or to switch over from that system which served them well.

Local administration in Britain is effective on the one hand and I should say that it is respected on the other hand, apart from any political considerations. Our position here was that our local machinery had not broken down when consideration of this type of legislation was on hand. There was no indication that our councils were corrupt. There were, mainly, flaws in the administration and these flaws could have been corrected, but not in the form in which it was set out to correct them. I believe that a wrong step was taken in introducing that legislation. As events have proved, public confidence and respect and interest have been impaired, if not destroyed, in recent years in local administration. What greater example of that have we than the vote which was exercised in the recent elections? At least one satisfactory feature of the recent elections, I should say, was largely due to the fact that it was known that this change was about to take place and that there would be a complete restoration of the powers of the local authorities. The feature to which I refer is the seemingly large number of candidates, mostly young and desirable people, who put themselves up for election. That the electorate did not take them quite so seriously is another affair.

The first wrong step that was taken was the complete switch-over of authority to one individual. Then, again there was the other and by no means the lesser factor in a situation which has been unsatisfactory, namely, that the personnel in quite a number of respects was entirely unsuitable and unsatisfactory. The trouble was that a number of these individuals, clothed with the authority of the 1940 Act to which Deputy MacEntee referred, set themselves up as virtual dictators in the districts which they administered. I am bound to say and I gladly record that in Dublin we have had an experience of an entirely different character.

The first gentleman who filled the post of city manager in this city, and who has now gone to his reward, set a very high example. Despite the authority vested in him under the Management Act of 1930, in his case, "I am bound to admit," he says, "that the ratepayers have sent you people in here and I shall take cognisance of your presence here and of your advice". His administration was along these lines and there are colleagues of mine in this House who will agree with me when I say that when the City Management Act is altered back again—as the Minister indicated early in his speech—a number of members of the old councils in that case will find it very hard in a great many respects to note the difference that the new state of affairs will produce, as distinct from the old, because of the headline set by that man and because of the wisdom and commonsense and prudence exercised by his two successors who were wise enough to ensure that they would strike a nice balance between the authority vested in them under the Acts and their responsibilities to the elected representatives of the ratepayers. That is what is involved in this particular legislation. Nobody will deny the fact that county administration on the whole is definitely unsatisfactory and, in view of the restriction of their powers, it is an amazing thing that even up to to-day it has retained the number of public representatives that it has retained over the past decade.

As I see it, this Bill introduces machinery of a simple character although, of necessity, it had to be recited to such an extent. It sets out that the county officer will be in the same position as an ordinary general manager of a commercial concern. Had that been done in the early stages, Labour members, or any other members, would never have opposed the County Management Acts. Could one imagine the general manager of a commercial concern ignoring his directors or shareholders, or dictating to them, as to the way they should proceed, or not carrying out their desires? The thing would be absurd. That, in effect, was the position. That, will obtain no longer. Provision is now made, that the new county officer, in every respect, shall carry out the dictates and desires of his council. If there are certain limitations, they will be by consent of the council and by consent of this House. The limitations are recited in connection with the three functions he has to exercise, first, tenancies; second, employment; and third, his responsibilities under the Health Act.

As the Minister pointed out—I know this is a sore question with some members—even though he is now being given the duty of allocating tenancies, he can only do this under well-defined regulations. Everybody in the House knows that there is an order of preference. That may be subject to variation, but the order of preference in operation at the moment is calculated to give relief where it is most needed. Under this Bill, the county officer must conform with the statutory regulations, in connection with cases of tuberculosis, dangerous buildings, overcrowding, and so on, in a particular order. In that respect, all I can say is that if it will be possible for county councils, in connection with the sore question of tenancies, to follow the same procedure as is followed in the Dublin Corporation, there will be no room for grievance whatsoever. The average member of a local authority regards housing as the most immediate and pressing subject, so far as his constituents are concerned. He will not be precluded, in any way, from making representations under this Bill. There is power to set up committees. The general executive committee will probably set up a special committee in regard to housing.

The procedure in the Dublin Corporation in regard to housing is that the officers of the council prepare a survey with the local medical officer. The local medical officer lays down the type of case that is to get preference. He indicates the number in family; whether there is a member of the family afflicted with tuberculosis, whether it is a dangerous building case, and so on, and the chief officer for housing in the Dublin Corporation, who is comparable with the new officer in the county council, having satisfied himself that the survey and recommendations are in order, lists the individuals for a house or flat as the case may be. But, before he does so—here is where I think members of county councils can be assured that they are not being ignored in so far as this section of the Bill is concerned—he submits to his council or housing committee, well in advance, before the actual letting is made, a list of the proposed lettings, with all the details, names, et cetera. Every member of the housing committee gets a copy of the recommendations and it is open to any member to say at the housing committee: "I suggest that I have a case —No. 3 on this list—which is a stronger case than No. 1." He can make suitable representations at the committee, bring any new facts to light and the case can be reinvestigated. That gives complete confidence to all the members. Every member knows who are the people who are getting houses. If I am interested in a particular case and Deputy Hickey is interested in another case, we can see the names on the list. We can see that the cases are above board and that every detail has been examined. All this is done before the letting is finally made. There is nothing to preclude an arrangement of this kind being incorporated in the regulations made under this Bill.

On the question of staff, it is clear that the position as defined in the Bill is much better than it was. Conditions are changing. Members, who are not paid for their services, have not all the time at their disposal that they might like to have. It is obvious that there must be an executive authority or manager or whatever you like to call him who would carry out certain duties in their absence. Again, so long as precautions are taken to ensure that there will not be nepotism or favouritism, I do not see what grievance any member could have if the recruitment of staff is along the lines here indicated. So far as clerical staff is concerned, recruitment is by open competitive examination. There is no question of the council interfering. In the case of the recruitment of other staff it is very largely done now as a result of negotiation and arrangement with the trade unions. There is the further safeguard that a new permanent office cannot be created except by the consent of the council.

I certainly did not like Deputy MacEntee's reference to what might happen under the individual health functions. I think it was in connection with that aspect that he suggested, in reply to an interruption from this side, that a certain state of affairs could obtain. I think it is the desire and the wish of the House that this Bill will not leave here as an instrument which could be used by any individual or any Party to make the sufferings of the poor a sort of political plaything. I think the House will have common sense and dignity enough to ensure that there will be nothing of that kind put over here.

Finally, may I say that so far as I and my colleagues are concerned, we welcome this Bill? We believe it is a good Bill and we will do what we can in this House, in conjunction, I hope, with members of all Parties, to try to make it a better Bill, if there are genuine objections or if constructive amendments can be put forward. All I ask is that the Minister will meet us in that spirit and that he will be responsive to an approach of that kind.

I must confess that I always listen with great interest and admiration to Deputy MacEntee, but very seldom have I listened with such admiration as I did to-day to the skilful way in which he completely ignored the one essential difference there is between the Bill that the Deputy, as Minister for Local Government, introduced in 1940 and the Bill that was introduced to-day.

The whole principle of the 1940 Act, that is now being changed, was that no powers were left to councils, except the powers that were definitely stipulated. The whole principle of this Bill is that all power is being left to the council, except for the small amount of power, the limited power, that is indicated. It makes an enormous difference obviously, considering the actual words, the actual schedules and the actual sections of the Bill, as to whether the fundamental principle starts out with giving everything to the council, on the one hand, or to the person who carries out the position of chief executive, on the other hand.

Deputy MacEntee completely ignores that point, for obvious reasons. He also ignored, again for obvious reasons, the fact that it was not only that the Act of 1940 was so objectionable in its tone, but the administration of that Act, and the manner in which it was thrown into the arena by the then Minister for Local Government, now Deputy MacEntee.

I have in front of me the circular letter that Deputy MacEntee caused to be sent out in August, 1942. There was nothing in that circular letter of the suggestions that we heard coming from Deputy MacEntee to-day as to the manner in which the 1940 Act could be implemented. As I know, and as my colleague Deputy Harris, who has left the House, knows, it was only as a result of a bitter fight, a very bitter fight, on the part of people who were quite honestly trying to carry out what they believed were Deputy MacEntee's wishes as Minister, that the additional practices that have grown up in the various counties, grew up.

In County Kildare we have had different managers. The first one has gone to his reward. He was an extremely conscientious man—a man could not be more conscientious—and his one ambition was to try to do what he believed was intended under the Act. He tried to do that honestly and fearlessly, and once there was a complete and absolute deadlock between himself and the council because, in accordance with his interpretation of the Act and the circulars sent out by the Department, he took the line that what he was supposed to do was exactly the bare minimum laid down in the Act, and nothing more. The result was that the Kildare County Council was converted into purely a rubber stamp. We were not satisfied with that position and a small revolt commenced in the county council which culminated in certain passages in the circular that was sent out by the Department on the 7th February, 1946, a circular which radically altered the viewpoint that was presented to the luckless managers who were thrown into the arena in 1940. If only they had put the 1940 Act into practice with the same moderation that they learned after some years of experience, there might have been a better chance for the people who genuinely tried to carry out their duties, as apart from certain others who did not.

The real point about this Bill, leaving aside Deputy MacEntee's apologia for his mistakes, is that in this measure the entire control, except in regard to three matters, is vested in the council. Whether that council operates as a council through the scheduled functions or whether it operates through the executive committee it sets up itself, is of little consequence. The councils have the complete choice of the executive committees and the council have complete power to override their decisions.

The first and most important power in any county council is the power of the purse. Under the old Act the situation was that on one day in the year, at an estimates meeting, the council could exercise some little control. I use the words "little control" advisedly, because it was only a little control that could be exercised. All the manager was bound to do was to produce an estimate under certain headings—about six headings according to the public bodies Order of 1942, and later of 1946. It was open to the manager entirely to change the basis upon which he spent the money within each of those headings. The money might have been given in order to be spent on roads, and when the county councillors were giving the money without attaching any form of condition they thought it was going to be spent in one particular way, but the county manager could direct that it would be spent in an entirely different way as long as he did not exceed the total amount granted. In this way the desires of councillors could be completely thwarted.

That can no longer happen. As Deputy O'Sullivan has pointed out, and as I interrupted Deputy MacEntee to emphasise, but Deputy MacEntee refused to deal with it, all that officer will now do is to issue a cheque on the direction of the executive committee. The powers of the county officer are being limited. He will have no power whatever to make any payments unless those payments are directed by the executive committees or by the council itself. It is nonsensical to suggest that the business of the executive committee will be held up while the chairman of the committee signs every cheque or every warrant that will be made out.

The proper and the sensible course is the one that is indicated in this Bill. The committee directs what payments are to be made and it is the duty of the officer to carry out the directions of the committee, to see that the proper warrants go out, and that they are drafted and sent out in the proper way.

So far as the other matters, to which Deputy MacEntee referred, are concerned, the same course is being adopted in this Bill. When this measure becomes operative, the council will have complete control of policy and will decide in regard to general matters. Obviously no council can, at the present time, delve into every matter of detail. The council will need to have some executive officers, who will carry out their directions and who will not try to override their decisions or see whether they can find some way of avoiding the carrying out of the council's wishes. Under the old Act, a council might express a wish in regard to a certain matter, but it could not take any mandatory action. Under this Bill, the mandatory power and action is there and the county officer, in regard to 95 per cent. of the whole field of general direction in a county council, is going to act and must act simply and solely as the agent of the council, whether the council is acting itself in general meeting or is acting through a general committee.

I was glad to see that the Minister has provided that these committees will be elected by proportional representation. I think that is the right way in which all committees of the county council should be elected. It would be desirable to provide, if possible, in this Bill, not only in respect of these executive committees, but in respect of all committees, which the county council is called upon to select, that the same course would be adopted. That would work out in a fairer way and you would not have, in one county, one side wreaking vengeance on the other, while in another county that vengeance would be avenged again.

There are some things in the Bill about which, candidly, I am not as clear as I might be, or as satisfied as I might be, but they are matters of detail which can be more properly discussed on the Committee Stage. Like Deputy Martin O'Sullivan, I sincerely hope that, when that time comes, we will be able to discuss the Bill in Committee clearly and unmistakably, with this before our minds—that we want someone to carry out the detailed work, but that we believe it is the democratically elected people who should be the bosses and who should decide how that work is to be carried out. That is what is achieved in this Bill and that, I believe, is the aim of the members of this House; but in all that, no matter what powers there may be written into Bills or given here, it is the day-to-day control of the purse that matters. The control exercised under sub-section (5) of Section 39 is the thing which will ensure that the wishes of the council will at all times be completely directive in local government.

I am not very clear about one section and, with a view to having the matter cleared up before we come to the Committee Stage, perhaps I might mention it. In Section 40 there is provision by virtue of which the estimates are dealt with when they come forward from an estimates committee. We have one now in County Kildare, as a result of our success in the battle we fought with Deputy MacEntee. There is provision that the estimates committee should be consulted—a very desirable and necessary provision—but I am not clear as to what happens if the committee or the officer brings in an estimate and the council, having considered it, decides it wants some more information and decides that it would like to postpone its further consideration for a week or ten days. There is no power in that section for an adjournment and, as I read the section per se, it means that the estimate must be passed there and then on that day. It may be that there is a power in the Interpretation Act or some Local Government Procedure Act which says that every business brought forward can be adjourned. Section 40, as it stands at present, looks rather mandatory, as it states that the council must either amend, pass or change the estimate there and then. There should be provision, if it does not already exist, by virtue of which the question could be deferred and the council could get further information that it might require.

Deputy O'Sullivan also referred to the appointment of officers. It is one of the worst bones of contention again and again at the General Council of County Councils that county managers were entitled to make, and did make, new offices and appoint new people to them without the council knowing perhaps for weeks or months afterwards. Clearly, we have an enormous improvement in this Bill, an improvement by virtue of which no new permanent office can be created without the council's approval in the initial instance and no temporary appointment can be made without it being necessary to bring it to the notice of the very next meeting and then, if the council do not like the temporary appointment, they can terminate it forthwith. Obviously, if you have that situation, there will not be a recurrence of the procedure by which these managers very much overloaded their administration with unnecessary staff and built up a great deal of unnecessary red tape and an unnecessary machine.

I would like the Minister, when replying, to be good enough to deal with a point that affects my area rather than the country in general, namely, the case of grouped counties. As I read it, under Section 10 (3) of the Bill the Minister determines the county officer for a particular county where there are certain counties which, under the 1940 Act, were grouped together. In these counties, the person who is already there as county manager can obviously become county officer only for one of them. Even if there were no other change in the Bill than that, it would be a good one, since a person trying to operate as manager in accordance with the County Management Act in two counties has been in an impossible position for some considerable time. In the future, he will be allocated to one county. Do I understand that in the other county, where the office of county manager would automatically become vacant, the county secretary, if there is a permanent county secretary, will become automatically the county officer or is a new person brought in? I understood that the county secretary would automatically become county officer in that vacant county, but there seems to be a provision in another sub-section to suggest that that it not to be the case, that where there is such a vacancy on the first operation of this Bill the position of county officer would be dealt with by the Local Appointments Commission and there would be no ipso facto appointment.

In that respect, I suggest to the Minister that one of the essential things about a county officer is, first, that he would be efficient, able to carry out his duties properly; but, secondly, that he would know the people with whom he is going to deal. A person who has been active, particularly a person who has been acting permanently as county secretary for a long time, would know personally the people with whom he has to deal and would have the local knowledge absolutely essential for carrying out that detailed work which would be required. It would be desirable to adopt some method which would ensure that some of the difficulties one has to cope with in this respect would cease—that is, where a job is advertised, the Local Appointments Commission make their recommendation and a person comes in and takes up duty, and in another three months or six months he is away again to some other job in another county. That makes for bad local administration, though I agree that it would perhaps be unfair in certain respects to limit a man's power of advancement. But one cannot possibly be expected to run any business efficiently if one's senior experienced personnel is changing day after day. I would seriously ask the Minister to consider introducing into this proposed measure some clause or provision under which in respect of future appointments a successful candidate would be precluded from seeking a new local appointment elsewhere within a period of 12 months. I would suggest that that should be made clear in all advertisements in the future for appointments to local authorities. Twelve months is not a very long period, but if we do not get some degree of permanency in regard to senior personnel it will become increasingly difficult for local authorities to carry on.

Ordinary business is carried on to a very large extent by companies, incorporated under one or other of the Companies Acts. In these Acts there is a very clear provision that directors can operate, firstly, with a governing director, who has all the say, while his co-directors may only do such things as he allows them to do; secondly, a company may be carried on by a board of directors with a general manager acting under that board. The principle of a governing director is adopted only in the case of private companies when all the shares are held by one individual or by the members of one family. It is really merely a dummy company.

Under the 1940 Act, we had a dummy local administration. Under this Act, we shall have an ordinary businessman's provision by virtue of which the board of directors in the shape of the members of the local authority will direct policy from day to day while having a county manager to carry out the work in the way in which a general manager does in an ordinary business concern. He will implement the directions of the council and ensure that the detailed work is done and that detailed information is sent forward to his council so that, with that information before them, they in turn can dictate general policy. That is the underlying principle in this Bill. There may be differences of opinion in relation to certain sections of it. Some of us might like to tilt a particular section one way or another. There is a fundamental difference between this Bill and the Act of 1940 as it was administered when it came into operation in Kildare in 1942. Kildare County Council is one of which I have personal experience. I do not blame the managers. I do not blame the House for passing that particular Act. But I do blame the directive and spirit that was quite deliberately instilled into the working of the Act by Deputy MacEntee, who at that time had control, for the express purpose of utilising the managers then appointed, not as instruments of local government but as instruments of central authority so that he might sit above them like the spider in the web.

When the House comes to consider a Bill it usually takes into consideration what the Bill proposes to do. We have been told by the Minister that the present measure before the House proposes to supplant the legislation under which local authorities have administered the affairs of their respective counties for a number of years. The County Management Act has been in operation for some eight years. That is a very short period as compared with the period during which local government has been in operation. The previous code was in operation for some 50 odd years. It was amended from time to time and, taken as a whole, it operated quite well.

The first Management Act was introduced here in 1929, in connection with the City of Dublin. Following upon that there were other cities brought within the ambit of that particular piece of legislation. Local authorities, county councils and boards of health were done away with and county councils set out to function under the control of the managers in 1942. Eight years is a very short period in which to judge the relative advantages or disadvantages of any piece of legislation dealing with local government. I do not think the Act of 1940 has been sufficiently long in operation to enable us to form a fair judgment as to the respects in which it needs amendment, if any. It is possible that the Act might show certain weaknesses if given a fair period of trial. Frankly, I have not seen any serious weaknesses in it.

If there are apparent weaknesses in it, this Bill certainly does not alter the situation or improve it, in any way. We heard a good deal of talk from the Labour Party in particular about the giving back of democratic powers to local authorities. The Minister himself definitely said that he would introduce a Bill for that express purpose. We have travelled a long road since the first of the so-called democratic powers were taken from local authorities. We had the Combined Purchasing Act and the Local Authorities (Employment) Act, which set up the Appointments Commission. There were a number of other enactments, under all of which certain powers were taken away from local authorities. It is not suggested even by the present super-democratic Minister for Local Government that the powers taken away should be given back to these bodies. Early in this Bill the title "County Manager" is changed to "County Officer." As the poet said, "A rose by any other name may smell as sweet."

I was wondering who would be the first to quote that.

The county officer will have the same powers as the county manager had under the 1940 Act.

Read the Bill.

His powers will be the same irrespective of whether you call him a county officer or a county manager.

He had too much power in Cavan anyhow and there had to be an inquiry into it.

The manager, in the future, will be responsible for the appointment and remuneration of all the officers of the council, the conditions of their service, and their pension rights and for every other function that he performed in the past. This democratic body that we are to have when this Bill becomes an Act will have no control whatever over the officers of the council, as to their salaries, their allowances, their holidays, pension rights, or anything else. It will have no control whatever over any employee of any local authority. The manager will have full and absolute control as he has under the County Management Act. It may be interesting for the House to know that the salaries, wages, allowances, pensions and other statutory charges that fall on local authorities at the moment amount to more than 90 per cent. of the total expenditure of a council in any one year. Yet, we have all this talk, all this ballyhoo about giving back democratic powers of control to the local authorities. It is all eye-wash. The manager, under this Bill, will have, as he has at present, full control over 90 per cent. of the expenditure of the councils.

I challenge any Deputy to show me where a local authority will have more control in the future over finance than it has at present, or had in the past. I am not objecting in the least to the control that we had under the County Management Act. I believe that councils had all the control they needed, and I am not objecting to it. The position is that the Department of Local Government, the Department of Health, and the Department of Social Welfare dictate to the manager the salaries, wages and allowances which are to be paid to every section employed by a local authority with the exception of road workers. I ask any Deputy is that not so. Did local bodies not get, from time to time over the last two or three years, circulars from the Department of Local Government, the Department of Health, and the Department of Social Welfare stating that the Minister concerned was prepared to sanction such and such salaries to various types of officers? Is that not so? We got those circulars. It is the Department of Local Government, the Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare which fix the salaries, wages and allowances of all the officers employed by a council with the exception of the lower paid workers. That is the position.

I have already stated that these salaries, wages and allowances, with other statutory charges, amount to over 90 per cent. of the total expenditure of a council in any one year. There is one thing that a council may have control over and that is the amount that it will provide for roads, the amount it will provide for home assistance and the amount that it will provide for repairs to houses. There may be some other small matters, but I should like to know what control councils are going to get under this Bill which they had not in the past.

Does the 90 per cent. include road workers' wages?

You are contradicting yourself then.

No. The council had no control over the wages paid to road workers. The county manager had absolute control. The council could not interfere with him under the County Management Act, and it will not be able to interfere with him under this Bill either when it becomes an Act.

The scheduled functions under this Bill are no different from the scheduled functions under the County Management Act. Deputy Martin O'Sullivan, when speaking a short time ago, made great play with the fact that the council will have power to authorise payments under the scheduled functions. It is provided under sub-section (5) of Section 39 that:—

"Payments arising out of the performance of scheduled or executive functions shall be made pursuant to a decision of the council of a county, elective body or executive authority (as the case may be) given in either general or particular terms."

I am sure every Deputy has read the Bill. I think it would be very interesting if they would again make a study of what the scheduled functions of a council are, and if, having done so, they would make an estimate of the total payments that can be made under these scheduled functions. It is true that, amongst the scheduled functions, the council of a county may appoint rate collectors. It is quite obvious that their salaries will have to be paid. If you appoint rate collectors you will have to pay them. If Deputies read through these scheduled functions they will find that they are simply the functions which are being performed at the present time by the councils. They are not being added to in any way.

The executive functions are being added to.

Which does the Deputy mean—the executive functions of the council of a county or of elective bodies?

The elective bodies have no executive functions. Provision is being made in this Bill to set up two elective bodies, one being a health authority.

The elective body in the Bill is different from what the Deputy is talking about. It is different from a committee.

The elective bodies are two committees of the council. Two new semi-councils are being set up under this Bill.

Little councils.

They can delegate all their functions to the county officer. Every single function that they are being given under this Bill they can delegate it to the county officer. Therefore, these two bodies will have no executive functions whatever.

But they need not.

They will have no executive functions whatever. These two phoney bodies that are being set up will cost the ratepayers in each county a considerable sum of money. They will cost the ratepayers a considerable sum to bring them into existence, to provide them with secretaries, with staffs and with all the other paraphernalia. They will have no proper function whatever under this Bill.

How can they delegate it then?

They will not have it, and this is all pure eye-wash. I do not see anything in the position as we have it at the moment that would prevent a council from setting up committees of themselves to perform the very same type of functions as may be performed by the two bodies under this Bill. There is nothing in the world to prevent councils from doing that. They have absolute power, amongst the scheduled functions in the County Management Act, to set up such bodies.

Under the Local Government Act of 1925 they have the power to do that, to set up committees and delegate to them any particular function they wish. That has never been altered by any Act. Many counties have committees of the council for certain functions—housing committees, general purpose committees, finance committees and different committees of that kind. They have been operating since the inception of the Management Act and the councils have full and absolute authority, under the County Management Act, to set up those committees.

You could set up a committee but when the committee was set up, it had no power except such as the manager liked to give it.

Under this Bill, they will have no more power.

Then it is only a waste of time talking about it. Is that what the Deputy means?

The county manager has full authority over the employment functions, the health functions and the tenancy functions. Will somebody tell me what functions these committees are going to perform? What executive functions can they perform under this Bill? None. Any functions they have under the Bill, they can delegate to the manager and they are not very important functions, to my mind. None of the functions which the manager had, with the one exception of home assistance, is being given to the local authority under this Bill. I am very surprised that the Minister for Local Government saw fit to embody in this Bill a provision handing over the administration of home assistance to the local authority. There have been no complaints, so far as I know, about the administration of home assistance. I believe that home assistance, in the area of the local authority I know best, was administered fairly and honestly and I can see grave danger in handing back this function to any committee of a local authority. I say that seriously after all due consideration.

As I said before, this Bill is pure and simple eye-wash. It means nothing. It means that the manager, under another name, will be there and will be performing, as county officer, the very same functions he has been performing in the past. It does not matter two hoots to local authorities by what name the man in charge of the executive functions is known. I do not know whether this Bill is an effort to belittle the existing managers and to lower their status and dignity. I am just wondering whether it is an attempt to lower their status in the eyes of councils and I question the wisdom of doing that.

The County Management Act, to my mind, was attended by a fairly reasonable measure of success. Its success in any particular area depended, in the first place, on the constitution of the council and, secondly, to a certain extent on the manager. I want to say that the experience gained during the eight years the Act has been in operation has proved that when the persons selected to be county managers had previous experience of local government and had worked in some capacity in a local government office, they were almost a 100 per cent. success as managers, while those who were appointed managers who had no previous experience of local government— although they might have been men of ability otherwise—were not quite so successful. I think that will be found to be a fact and any criticism of the County Management Act came from those areas where the managers had no previous experience of local government before they became county managers. Whether it was the Department of Local Government, the Minister or the Local Appointments Commission who were responsible, I think it was a fatal mistake to appoint men as managers who had no previous experience of local government administration. The Act should have provided that managers should have had previous experience, a long number of years of experience, in local government. I think you will have the same difficulty in the future and the same weakness will be there if persons are appointed as county officers who have had no previous experience of local government administration. The same remarks apply to any other business. If a man is appointed to a position who has had no previous experience of the duties which he will be called upon to perform, even though he may be a man of great ability, he often proves a failure, and a costly failure, until such time as he gains a sufficient experience of the duties of the office.

At the moment, local authorities are called upon to discharge functions under many Ministers. I often wonder how they are able so successfully to function under these various Ministries. We have them operating under the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Social Welfare, the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Nearly every Department of State has some control over the local authorities and it is almost impossible for local authorities to serve all those Ministers efficiently. Sometimes we find very different opinions expressed and different views communicated to local authorities from different Ministers. I think it would be much better if we had again the position, under which local authorities would be responsible only to one central Minister of State. It would be much better for the machinery of local government as it operates in the different counties. I can see at a glance, that these new committees will be set up to serve different Ministers—one to serve the Minister for Health, one to serve the Minister for Social Welfare, to a certain extent, and another to serve the Minister for Local Government. I think the Minister for Local Government should be the only Minister in contact with local authorities. You would then have far better administration and local authorities would have fewer difficulties than they have at the present time. The local government machinery, as it operates throughout the country, is becoming more complicated year after year. The functions which local authorities are asked to perform for different Ministers are increasing from year to year. Health services are increasing and they are increasing the burdens, obligations and duties of local authorities and increasing their staffs. The Minister for Local Government is a very attenuated personage now compared with what he was before the coming of the Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare and he has very few functions.

I wonder what the functions of the council of the county will be when you have those two committees of the council in future. What duties will they have? They will be concerned with making and striking a rate, and I suppose with collecting that rate, but I wonder what functions they will have. Will they be entitled to review the work of those two committees of the council? I doubt very much if they will, and as far as those committees will function I expect that they will function like the old boards of health or the present vocational committees or committees of agriculture, and that their decisions will not in any way be subject to review. I notice that an estimate will be made for each of those committees and very little will be left for the council of a county as a whole to consider in the matter of estimates. The estimate will be in three parts, to be considered by three different sections of the council, and I doubt if that is very desirable. It would be much better altogether if the council as a whole considered the whole estimate for the county.

Deputy Sweetman told us that the council had no functions, no control whatever over the making of the rate; that they met for half an hour to strike the rate; that the manager presented the estimate to them, and when they had considered it they had no option but to strike it. That was not so. In some counties the council spent many days considering each detail of the estimate. It was laid before them in absolute detail, and where they could they determined the amount of money to be provided under each heading. They had this power in regard to about 10 per cent. of the total estimate. Some counties spent half a million pounds, and they had control over 10 per cent. of that or less. They will have control over 10 per cent. of what is spent in the future when this becomes law, and over 10 per cent. only. I want to emphasise this fully.

This is supposed to give back democratic powers but the council will have no power over selecting cottage tenants or health functions or over who is to get any allowance under the Health Act. The manager has full control and full power over who is to get a tuberculosis allowance, medical treatment or hospital treatment under the Health Act and the council will not have any control whatever. They will not have control over employment, over who is to be employed or in what way they are to be employed. I am not worried about that, however, because I think it useful and right that these functions should be in the hands of the manager, but I want to challenge the Government side of the House; they are trying to deceive the country and this House and they are wasting the time and substance of the country by bringing before the House such a Bill as this purporting to do away with the present County Management Act. It is doing no such thing. It is just changing the name "manager" to "county officer" and setting up two unwanted committees which will put extra expense directly on the taxpayers of every county. There is no doubt about that.

There is every doubt about it.

I know that persons are already earmarked to be secretaries of these committees at substantially increased salaries.

Maybe in County Wexford.

It does not happen to be in County Wexford but I know they are earmarked. Many officers are expecting promotion as secretaries of those committees and they will want assistant secretaries, typists and assistants of various kinds. You will have assistant managers who are not wanted in many cases, and you will have a more expensive system of local government. The system we have at the moment is a burden greater than the local ratepayers can bear; it is being added to day by day; the bill is mounting considerably; within a very short time local government and local authorities will be spending as much as this State spent in its early youth.

That is your managerial system and the baby is dying.

No, the county managers saved the ratepayers of this country many hundreds of thousands of pounds. They were fully justified by their management of the functions of the councils. It is an extraordinary thing that the powers given to them in the Management Act are not taken away from them in this Bill. Seemingly it is thought necessary to-day that we should have a county manager or county officer or executive officer—call him what you like—in charge during the absence of the council to look after the council's interests, to mind the employees, staff and officers and to see that the machine of local government in the area is running smoothly.

I think it is a pity that this Bill was introduced even if weaknesses were found in the County Management Act. This has been brought in purely for prejudice, purely for political reasons, purely to satisfy certain interests in the country, purely to carry out the promises made by the Labour Party during the election campaign and since that they would abolish the County Management Act. The way they are abolishing it is that they are changing the name of the manager. All the other changes in the Bill are not worth the time and the expense of putting it through this House and making it the law of the country.

I have listened to Deputy Allen's speech. He does not agree with the ex-Minister, Deputy MacEntee, when he said that there are good points in the Bill. Deputy Allen can see no good points now because he supported the County Management Act when his Party put it into force in County Wexford. Ever since when the local representatives of the people, particularly Labour members, asked the manager a question he would say "that is my executive function," and that was all the information one could get from Wexford County Manager.

Deputy Allen says that we have all the powers we want. Had the people of Tipperary all the powers they wanted when they voted an increase to their road workers only to find that, when it went up to the Custom House, the then Minister, Deputy MacEntee, would not sanction it? I am surprised by Deputy Allen's statement that we have all the powers we want, in view of that case. Does the Deputy think for a minute that one man should be put in charge of an entire county and does he think that that one man can understand all the needs of the people in that county? Does the Fianna Fáil Party believe that the men they put in as little dictators in the case of 24 councils—two councils had been abolished—knew everything? I welcome this Bill and I think it a pity that Fianna Fáil did not give the Bill a chance to be passed before the recent local elections, instead of talking for hours.

We did not hold it up.

If they had given it a chance, we would have had a bigger vote at those elections. No one wants these county managers, except Fianna Fáil, because these county managers could appoint their staff officers. If there was one staff officer appointed by the Appointments Commission, the county manager appointed three of his own selected friends and Deputy Allen should know enough about that, as he was chairman of the Wexford County Council. He does not now occupy that position and he makes a speech here merely for the sake of talking and says that there is no change. Does he think the Minister and the Government and the draftsman have no brains because Fianna Fáil are out of office? There is a change, and a big change, needed in local administration and, if I had my way, I would abolish the position of county manager altogether and give the £26,000 which would be saved to the road workers who do something for it. Deputy Allen was on the right side in the Wexford County Council. He had a "pull" with the county manager and was able to get cottages allocated and to get plenty of fellows jobs. Of course, it is bad for him now.

Allegations against a public officer are not at all desirable in a debate of this kind.

I brought up the renting of these cottages in my own constituency in years gone by. They did not want to give them to agricultural labourers, but to members of their own Party. Is it not time to do away with that? On the eve of the local elections in 1942, the Fianna Fáil Party, seeing that they were losing, sent down some of their principal speakers and throughout that constituency they said that no matter who was elected the following day, the county manager would be the boss. We are getting away from that to-day and we are now to have some say in local administration because the people of Ireland are demanding it. No one could tell more about that demand than the ratepayers who are paying the piper. Jobs were filled, staff officers and engineers appointed and machinery purchased and the members of the county council were not told about it. They did not know what was happening until they got the manager's orders a month later, when they found that so many people had been appointed. They could not find out to whom a cottage had gone until they saw it in the local Press. It is time that all this was exposed.

When I stood before the people during the elections last month, I told them that the County Management Act was going to be changed. Do you think I would vote for this Bill if it did not make a change? Deputy Allen, on the other hand, told the people that there was no change, that the only change was that the manager was now to be the county officer. None of these men wants to have to go back to be a small boy. Our county manager approached me during the discussion about the County Management Act and asked me to get a clause inserted giving them the right to retire. They would all like to retire. I put it before the Minister, and the position is that that right is not given except in the case of people who are up to the prescribed age. We are not going to put them all out and give them big pensions for their eight years as county managers, and that is what is worrying some of the people who are defending the managers and the County Management Act.

People all over the country are asking when we are going to do away with these dictators, when is the Act going to be repealed so that the ratepayers can be relieved of the heavy burden put on them by the Fianna Fáil Government; and when are we going to give back to the elected representatives their right to talk for their people. These are the things which must be faced up to. Any man who is a member of a local authority knows as well as I do that that County Management Act was wrong. Under that system, the elected representatives went into their council meetings and had no say in what was done, except to vote for the estimates presented to them and give the money to one man to spend, with the result that they did not know where the money was going. If asked about it, the manager replied that it was his executive function. Was that good business for the people? Is it any wonder that at the moment there are sworn inquiries in progress in relation to these men who are being defended here? Is what is happening not public property and is it not coming to light?

What is coming to light?

Read the Press.

No references to any public inquiries, taking place at the moment, should be made. All these matters are sub judice and should not be referred to at all. No references should be made which might prejudice any committee or individual.

These are the gods who were created, the supermen who knew the circumstances of everybody in the county and who knew these circumstances better than any local man. The county management system was held up to us by the Government of the day as a great move which was going to save the ratepayers and stop jobbery and corruption. It was never the policy of the Labour Party or of any Labour man to accept the County Management Act. We never voted for it and we do not want to be sneered at by Deputy MacEntee or Deputy Allen. We represent the people and we know what the people want. We are not to be led up the garden by one man in this Government. We have the right to speak and to criticise the Government when they do wrong. We are not "yes" men and that is why we changed the Government in 1948.

Perhaps we could hear something about the Bill.

We are satisfied with the progress they are making. The system of county managers was one of the matters on which we checked them, and I am not satisfied that we have gone far enough. I think we should have got rid of them altogether, but I suppose that under the law we would have to give them big pensions. Therefore we have to put them back to do something for their salaries. We want to see clean, honest administration. I have always stood for that. I believe that the elected representatives of the people should be able to do the best they can for every section of the community, especially with regard to home assistance for the downtrodden and that they should not have to go to the county manager to beg for a few shillings a week for a person who might be in a bad way. But the county managers are supposed to know everything and to be able to cure everything. After eight years of that, a Government had to be formed here of different Parties and a Cabinet composed of Labour, professional and business men in order to see that the right things would be done and that there would be clean, honest administration. I hope that this "one-man" policy will never be carried out in this country again.

It was not my intention to speak until Deputy O'Leary gave me his usual inspiration to say a few words on this Bill. I thought I was going to hear something about the Bill, but he failed completely to tell us what change was being made by it. As a matter of fact, he never even referred to the change being made by the Bill. His only contribution was to criticise an unfortunate county manager who is just an officer of the local authority. Because this particular manager did not do everything that Deputy O'Leary wanted him to do for his friends, he was not the right type of manager at all. I have 30 years' experience of local authorities— possibly more.

You have had 30 years' experience?

Practical experience.

It is news to me.

During that time I heard a lot about bribery and corruption. I am very sorry that Deputy O'Leary reduced this debate to that plane, because if this Bill were debated as it should be debated in a cool, calm and intelligent manner we might be able to strike the happy medium. In all Bills there is something good and in all Bills there is something objectionable to certain Deputies. In my estimation this Bill has made only one change. It has changed the county manager to county officer. So far as I can see, it is a dishonest Bill in that regard, because I believe they should have left it as it stood. If they had abolished the position of county manager and given all authority to the local councils then I would say the Bill was making a complete change and going back to the days of the county secretary. Even the county secretaries had a good deal of authority in their own way.

As a result of experience and as a result of numerous complaints regarding local administration the County Management Act was brought in for the purpose of trying to improve that administration. Possibly in certain counties Deputies were unlucky enough to have county managers they did not like. In Dublin City and in Dublin County we were lucky in having decent, honourable men, men who were anxious to carry out their duties in a most impartial manner.

From my experience of the working of the County Management Act in Dublin County and City I think there is a lot to be said for it. I could say a lot about bribery and corruption but I am not going to follow Deputy O'Leary on that line. We have had insinuations that managers were doing certain things for certain people. No human being is perfect.

Looking over the years of local administration since we got our own Government in this country, I must say that a number of our local authorities did not take an intelligent view of local matters in our towns and other areas. There was a lot left to be desired. If the County Management Act has been responsible for bringing about a more intelligent outlook in the administration of local affairs then it is something to be proud of. I know the type of mentality I met with from time to time amongst members of local authorities. They were retarding local progress. I had that experience in County Dublin and I know it has happened in other counties as the result of the actions of some councillors. I do not know how they got to represent the people at all. We are told that a county manager will give a job to a friend. If a county manager gives a job to anybody but a competent person he has to take the rap. I remember when people had to go round and see this councillor and that councillor and bring friends with them, and when the best men we had in this country could not get a job except they knew some councillors. A person could not get a labourer's cottage at one time in County Dublin unless he was a member of the Blue Shirts.

That is a charge, of course.

Where the county medical officer of health recommended the most deserving cases for council cottages, as a result of the 1942 Act, I do not believe that any manager would do as Deputy O'Leary has suggested—and if he did he should not be called a county manager.

I can prove what I said.

I have often seen unfortunate people trying to get a cottage. That is something they deserve to get from this State and from the county in which they were reared. I have seen them with their hats in their hands approaching first one councillor and then others for something to which they were justly entitled. When I first entered public life I saw men deprived of cottages who should have been given them ten years before that but who, because of the rotten and corrupt system which prevailed, and because they did not belong to certain Parties, did not get them. When the county medical officer of health recommended them for cottages they got them—and they did not belong to the Fianna Fáil Party. I believe that justice is essential.

This Bill is not an honest and just Bill because the Government are making only one definite change. As Deputy MacEntee has told the House, the present system was not a Fianna Fáil invention. It was first tried out by the Government which held office previous to the Fianna Fáil Government. There is something good in every Act. Our Government at the time saw, possibly, something in the system to recommend it and it got a trial. There is no point in dealing with individuals on this matter. We must take a broad outlook if we are going to get anywhere. We are not dealing with the Bill as it should be dealt with when we say that one manager was bad and another manager was good and that there were two bad managers and three good ones, and so forth. I am firmly convinced that if the Government as a whole and the Minister for Local Government were strictly honest with themselves they would say: "We want to make amendments to the County Management Act and we shall do so. The County Management Act was given a trial by both Government—it has been experimented on, if you like to put it that way. Now, we see certain objectionable points in this Act, and we believe it should be amended." If the Government and the Minister were to say that, then I should say that the inter-Party Government were handling their job in an honest manner.

During its term of office the Fianna Fáil Government amended several Acts. We found, and every Government or Party will find, that the working of an Act and the passage of a Bill through the Oireachtas are two different matters. In the working of certain Acts we found that it was necessary to amend them from time to time. If the Minister had amended certain sections of the existing Act that he thought would be of benefit to the local authorities I should have said "Well done" to him for removing what he considered were objectionable points in the Act. The powers of local authorities under the Act are wide enough and, judging by all the work to be carried out by the local authorities, I am afraid that, unless they are paid full-time, you will require some administrative officer to carry out the functions.

The Government, instead of continuing the County Management Act and amending it, which would have been the decent thing to do, decided to change the title of "county manager" to "county officer" and are trying to convince the people that the new Act will be different. The same executive functions which the county manager had will be given to the county officer. That is dishonesty on the part of the Government, because the present Act could have been amended. Abolish it altogether, but why this idea of changing the name and continuing the substance, except for a few points? There are good points in all Bills.

Tell us what they are.

I am not going to go into details now because I do not wish to detain the House. I did not intend to speak on this measure and would not have done so were it not for the misrepresentation made by Deputy O'Leary.

There is only one change.

What is that? Tell us.

County officer.

Deputy Burke says that there are a few good points. What are they?

I should very much like to be present when Deputy Davin is speaking to his constituents and telling them that he has abolished the County Management Act. I should very much like to hear the way in which he will put it over and tell the people how democratic he has become. It is a very dishonest way of doing things because the Government are really carrying on the County Management Act. They have not approached the matter in the ordinary strong and gentlemanly manner in which any Minister or Party or Government should approach it.

I am not one of those who ever said or ever held the view that the system which prevailed prior to 1942 was an ideal system for local government. Neither am I one of those who would agree that the County Managerial Act, as it has been operated since 1942, has been ideal from the point of view of local administration. I always believed, rather, that an in-between path, namely, a path between the system which operated prior to 1942 and the managerial system, would be ideal but that the most important factor in any code of local government administration would be the provision of facilities whereby the elected representatives would have a greater interest in local affairs; that they would be enabled to examine in detail the affairs of county councils, corporations or urban councils and that, in brief, they would be conversant with the innermost workings of the local government machine in their own localities. I consider that this Bill provides such a system. I do not say that the county management system has been entirely abolished but, in this particular Bill, we have achieved a system whereby the apathy which has been apparent in locally elected representatives will disappear and we shall get back to the healthy position wherein those who have been elected as members of urban councils and county councils will take a far greater interest in local affairs than has been the case for the past eight years.

The low poll which we had at the recent local elections and the low poll which, incidentally, we had in 1945 was, to a large extent, the fault of the county management system because that system, as operated from 1942 up to the present time, has deterred people from going forward for election. It has made the local representatives very apathetic because the experience was that no matter what particular point of local administration they might happen to mention in their local councils the inevitable reply was: "This is a managerial function," and this is a function for which the elected representatives have no responsibility.

It is true to say that the majority of managers were very tolerant towards the local representatives, that they consulted them and, in a large number of cases, accepted their views but, by and large, there was a certain atmosphere of futility in all these discussions because the county manager was never bound to accept the opinions or views of the local representatives. To put it simply, it merely meant that local representatives went into the local council chamber, flapped their wings and talked in the air. That was the feeling they had.

It has been suggested here that the only change made under this particular measure is that county managers are now described as county officers. I think it was Deputy Allen who said that he was reminded of the quotation, "That which is called a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." I do not think that would apply in this case. If this Bill did nothing else than to change the title from "county manager" to "county officer," it would be a good thing and would have a good effect on the people. I do not think it is right to represent any man, as the county manager has been represented, as the actual manager of a county council, urban district council, corporation or town commissioners. The name has a ring of dictatorship about it, whether there is dictatorship or not and in many cases the manager was regarded as a virtual Pooh-Bah in his own county. I hold no brief against any man. I have met the majority of managers and found them all reasonable men but, unfortunately —this is my personal opinion—because they were given the title "county manager" they were boosted to such an extent that nothing could happen in the county, town or village without the manager being consulted. It was bad from that point of view because it gave those officers an air of responsibility which it was never intended to give them.

We have been asked by various speakers from the Opposition, what does this Bill do? I do not know whether we should take it as a recommendation or not or as a good omen, but the most sensible speech of the day came from Deputy MacEntee. I expected him—it is hard to say this— to be as dishonest as usual. I do not mean to say that he has told lies, but he is the type of person who is able to make a case against anything. Try as he could to-day, he could not in his heart say that there was anything very wrong about this Bill. As a matter of fact, I think he welcomed the major provisions in it. He did not try to persuade himself, as other Deputies did, that this Bill does not mean any change from the county managerial system other than that power is given to set up executive committees. From other speakers we have had the wail all the evening: "What new powers are given back to the county council which the managers formerly held?" Some speakers tried to gull the House by pointing to the Second Schedule and saying that that Schedule appears, section for section, item for item, as it appears in the County Management Act, 1940. That is perfectly true except with regard to one or two items which are of some importance but not of great importance. They differ in this respect that powers or functions given to local authorities under Acts of Parliament since 1940 have been added to the Second Schedule of this Bill. It has been represented by speakers from the Fianna Fáil Party that what are described as reserved functions are still the only functions which the local councils have. That is absolutely untrue. The manager has to perform employment functions, individual health functions and tenancy functions. After that, any of the other functions ordinarily operated by local councils are now the functions of the elected representatives. The reason why these particular items are included in the Second Schedule is because they are functions which must be discharged or performed by the council as a whole and which cannot be delegated to any of the sub-committees. Again, I say it is dishonest for anybody to represent that these are the only functions which the local authority has at the present time.

Personally, I think it is desirable that the managers should perform the employment functions. Personally— and it is the view of the Government —I think the manager should still perform the tenancy functions and the individual health functions. My big objection to the system which operated prior to 1942 was with regard to what are now described as tenancy functions and employment functions. I do not think that any councillor or representative on any public body in his sane mind would, if offered, accept the tenancy functions that are described in this Bill because I have seen situations and could visualise situations, if that were the case, whereby it would be not the most deserving applicant but the person who could swing the majority on a particular council who would get a house. There are sufficient safeguards, in truth, at the present time with regard to the allocation of tenancies and I do think that it is desirable that the function should be vested in a person say, like the county officer, who also must have regard to certain letting regulations laid down by the Minister for Local Government and, which is equally important, must describe to the corporation, urban council or county council the method by which he proposes to select the tenants. Therefore, even in the case of the selection of tenants, the manager must keep the council informed and must consult them before he attempts to let a cottage.

Again, I do not want to allege abuse or corruption against any manager but there have been occasions where managers have erred in the selection of tenants. They may pick out a particular tenant, make an order to that effect and have it announced in the Press. A question may then be raised by the corporation or county council but, because the manager has made his decision, he, like a good referee, is not inclined to change his decision, despite the fact that the members of the corporation or council may be able to indicate that there were more deserving cases and may bring to his notice facts of which he was not aware and, possibly, may advise him with regard to tenants who are much more deserving. Under the present system, with the present requirements, the manager makes his decision and is very reluctant—and I would not blame him—to change it. I can visualise a case, under this particular Bill, where there would be 20 to 30 houses available and, before the officer commits himself, he submits his proposals to the local council——

To the full council?

To the full council and he gets their comments and observations on his proposals.

Before he advises the tenants?

Before he announces his decision or allocations. It is important, and very desirable, that the manager should perform the employment functions. At the present time there are safeguards with regard to officers. If officers are disgruntled, or have a grievance, or feel that their position is worsened, they have power under another Act to appeal to the Minister and he decides whether or not that particular officer has a grievance. Under the present system, unfortunately, servants, such as road workers and minor employees in public institutions, in county hospitals or sanatoria, have no channel of approach to the local authority.

In this measure Deputy MacEntee sees some contradictions, particularly in regard to this particular proposal, but I do not think there is any contradiction or that there should be any difficulty in the operation of an appeal by a servant to the local authority. I think that is desirable, because, whether anybody likes it or not—and I do not make any particular accusation —there are hundreds of cases all over the country where people, such as road workers, gangers, foremen and charge hands, minor servants, feel they have been treated harshly by county engineers, assistant engineers or ordinary district engineers or other people who would be their supervisors. At the present time they have no redress; they have no channel of approach to any particular person. It is true they have their trade unions, but, as everybody appreciates, the trade unions catering for the servants of local authorities have no appeal to such an institution as the Labour Court. It is now proposed to let the local authorities act as arbitrators and they in their wisdom, which I believe they can and do exercise, will be the adjudicators or the arbitrators in respect of any grievances which any servants may have.

I will now get back to the point that was mentioned previously, the question put up by Deputy Allen, Deputy Burke and other speakers from the Fianna Fáil Party. They asked, after these scheduled functions what functions have the county councils left? Among the functions that would be left to them, apart from the employment functions, the health functions and the tenancy functions, there would be matters relating to home assistance. These are matters in regard to which the county manager up to this has made decisions, but now the county council can make its decision. The county councils will also have power in relation to the acceptance of tenders and the making of contracts. These two functions were hitherto vested in the county manager—as a matter of fact, they are vested in him at the present time—and it is proposed to hand them over to the members of the county council. It is also proposed to hand over to the council power in relation to the construction and repair of houses, the construction and maintenance of roads and bridges and control of water supplies and sanitation. It is also proposed to give the councils power with regard to the acquisition of land—that is a power which the county councils do not possess at the present time—and the submission and execution of schemes under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. All these things are not the responsibility of the elected members of county councils at the present time.

It is true to say that in a lot of cases the managers do consult the members of the council, but there is no statutory obligation on them to do so and we have to depend on the personality of a manager to consult with the members of his council. If we do not provide for that in our legislation it means that the councils have no power in any of these respects. Under this Bill councils will have the power to approve of loans under the Seeds and Fertilisers (Supply) Act; they will also have power to issue licences, to purchase office furniture and equipment and they will also have power in regard to office buildings.

Any person who is conversant with public bodies will realise that there are hundreds of functions which are now performed by or are the responsibility of county managers. Under this Bill they will become the functions and responsibilities of the county councils. Let nobody get the idea into his head that this is merely changing the name of county manager to county officer. Deputy MacEntee welcomed the idea of the establishment of a health executive committee and a general executive committee. This is one of the most important features of the Bill because it will enable one-third of the elected members of the council to go into the affairs of the county, so far as health is concerned, in the utmost detail.

Deputy MacEntee made play with the duties of these executive committees and said that in respect of the estimate the same procedure would be carried out under this Bill as is being carried out at present under the County Management Act. That is not correct. At the present time the manager prepares his estimate—he is required to do so by the Act—and he presents that estimate to the council. The estimate then is an accomplished fact. He does this before he has any consultation with the chairman or the members of the council and, no matter how people may protest that it is simple to have the estimate changed, the fact remains that the meeting must be adjourned and the members must be brought together again within a period of six days and all this elaborate procedure has to be gone through before the estimate can be amended, with the manager objecting even if the change is to the extent of only 5/-or £1 or some such small amount like that. This Bill requires the manager to take the health executive committee and the general executive committee into his confidence and they make out the estimate. In that way you will have a situation in which the members will determine what is to be spent in a particular year. In regard to matters outside health he consults the general executive committee and they make the estimate.

Unfortunately, it seems that the elected representatives on local bodies have not taken sufficient interest in such important matters as estimate meetings—not as much interest as they might take. In my opinion that is, as I have often said, due to the fact that the County Management Act killed the initiative of public representatives, made them apathetic and left the ordinary public diffident and disinterested in local affairs. It is only during elections or at particular times of the year that we hear ratepayers and organisations representing ratepayers talking about the increased rates, squandermania and extravagance. I suggest that this Bill will be in the nature of a school for ratepayers; it will be in the nature of a school whereby the elected representatives will become conversant with practically every detail of local administration. They will know why money is being raised and where and how it will be spent. It will take up much more of their time, and I think that is desirable.

I think the time has come when the elected representatives who will be required to sit on such committees will have to be compensated to a larger extent. I know particular public representatives who do not qualify for travelling expenses or subsistence because they happen to live in the particular town where the council meets, but unfortunately these people have to take the whole day off and are at a loss of 15/- or £1 per day for every time they attend the county council or any sub-committee. Therefore, in conclusion, I want to say that, first of all, even if the name is changed from county manager to county officer, it is desirable; but over and above all that, it will give elected representatives a greater interest in local affairs and a greater knowledge of local affairs. I suggest also that many of the powers which I have just mentioned and which are at present vested in the county manager are being returned to the elected representatives.

I have heard descriptions given from time to time to legislation and new types of legislation, but for the first time in this House I find we are now approaching the form which has been frankly described by the Parliamentary Secretary—not in the words I am going to use but in the sense—as psychological legislation. He spent a great deal of time stating that one of the main ideas behind this Bill is to get away from the term manager. He explained to the House the objections to that term, but if the particular officer carries out the equivalent functions under a different name or title such as county officer, the whole objection to county management practically disappears.

He paid a compliment to Deputy MacEntee, by stating that Deputy MacEntee's speech to-day was quite an honest one and quite well meant; and I want to pay him the same compliment and say that he has been honest with the House. He has not pretended that this is the abolition of county management. He has gone thus far to say that it is in between what was before and what might be desired by people who want complete control. To that extent he has, in a sense, tried to satisfy the members of his own political Party that this is something which they want.

When Deputy O'Leary spoke here, one would have imagined that he understood this particular Bill to be the complete abolition of control by officers other than those who would be under the complete control of the local elected representatives. His only acceptance of the county officer is: "We will keep him in employment now because if we throw him out on the roadside we will have to give him a pension." To that extent he understands this Bill, or at least he states that is the extent to which he understands it.

After all, what is really happening here? If the Minister had said: "We are amending the county management legislation to bring it closer into line with the City Management Act," we would have understood what is happening. I have read through this schedule of permitted functions of the council. They are allowed to nominate a candidate to stand for the Presidency of Ireland. That has always been the case. The Parliamentary Secretary said that all these items in the Second Schedule are, in fact, in the old County Management Act. If we take the Bill and examine it, first of all, in the sections in which it is arranged, we find that Part II, consisting of eight sections, relates specifically to the county officer—how and by whom he is appointed, by whom he is dismissed— certainly not by the elected representatives. It is the Minister who appoints him.

Can he be suspended?

By the Minister, but not by the local authority. He could be suspended for a misdemeanour, but it is subject to the Minister dealing with it. He cannot be sacked by the local authority. Deputy Davin has a habit of interrupting with what he thinks are darts that hit the bull's-eye. Before, when the Parliamentary Secretary was talking, he asked: "Will the allocation of lettings for cottages be done before the whole council?"

And he was quite satisfied when the Parliamentary Secretary said "Yes." He leant forward and then sat back, as if to say: "That is what I have been waiting for." The fact is that tenancies are being attended to by what the Parliamentary Secretary quite unconsciously referred to as the "manager" under this Bill. He could not get into the habit of saying "county officer" and he kept referring to the "manager"—because that is what he remains and he is exactly what he describes him to be— the manager, under a different name. It is psychological legislation. We have "the Republic of Ireland" by an Act of Parliament; and "county manager" ceases to be county manager by an Act of Parliament and you call him "county officer". Why are we not frank and honest about this?

Deputy O'Leary says that if it were not that Fianna Fáil had opposed this measure so rigidly it would have been before the people before the local elections. What stopped the Second Stage being introduced before the local elections? We had nothing to do with that. That is the kind of approach you get to matters that take place in this House—a Deputy really believes that the withholding of the introduction of the Second Stage until after the elections was our fault. Surely to goodness, one can examine the knowledge of the individual or the amount of care he has given to the examination of what this all means, by relating them to this kind of suggestion. Deputy Davin is quite happy that this means the abolition of county management. I know he is. At least, that is what he has given us to understand.

I know the meaning of the word "manager".

What is the meaning of the word "manager"?

Tell us the meaning of "county officer".

We had Deputy Sweetman, the chairman of a committee of a county council, telling us about the different forms of directors and managing directors that control ordinary private business. Local affairs are not run on the lines of a business. They are not run for profit but for the benefit of the community and the people who run them are answerable to the community. I am not against city management, nor am I against county management. I do not know that any Deputy who is a member of Dublin Corporation—there is a number of them here—would like to see us throw back the management of our civic affairs to the councils as they existed in the past. I think we are quite satisfied that we have as much say as the manager, if you like, in the running of the affairs.

Deputy Sweetman made a most unfair and untrue statement to the House. He said that county management during the period of office of Deputy MacEntee militated against the interests of people who were on the councils, because the management was directly shared between the county manager and the Minister himself. As a matter of fact, everyone here knows that circulars were issued by Deputy MacEntee when he was Minister, instructing county managers and city managers that the whole idea of this form of local administration could be successful only if there was co-operation between the elected representatives and the administrative officer whose title was manager. It does not do to say what really existed because, if one does not admit what existed, one cannot justify this half measure. I think it is a half measure. There are certain amendments. If this were introduced as a Bill to amend the County Management Act, item No. 1 being to change the name of the county manager to that of county officer, nobody would object since he would continue to administer the affairs of the county. If the Labour Party has such an objection to the term "manager", very good; we can get over that. Apparently the term is innately objectionable to certain people. They object to having officers described as "managers".

As I understand this Bill, it does not alter the fact that one has an administrator appointed by the Minister and who can only be sacked by the Minister. It does not alter the fact that the local authority has certain functions, as they have always had, and that the administrator appointed by the Minister has certain reserved functions. Would those Deputies who have spoken in favour of this Bill turn to that part of it which relates to parts of the country other than County Dublin? In County Dublin there is a whole section here setting up a series of officers as assistant managing directors—in other words, assistant managers. They remain assistant city managers but when they cross the county border they become the assistant county officers.

I hope, of course, that that is only temporary.

Deputy Cowan says something can be wrong, but it is right so long as it is only temporary. The fact is that the assistant city managers of Dublin will be the assistant county officers of the county. Did anybody ever see such a stupid attempt to make out that these officers, who have similar authority and similar work in the city and in the county, are different persons because they are described in different words? I think that to describe this Bill as implementing the promise given to abolish county management is a gross exaggeration. To claim that it is a series of amendments to the County Management Act would be nearer the position created by the introduction of this Bill.

It does not affect the city of Dublin, but there are certain "musts" in certain sections and certain "mays" in others. Section 46 is typical:—

"A meeting of the council of a county, an elective body or an executive authority may be attended by the county officer and he may take part in discussions at the meeting, but he shall not be entitled to take part in any vote."

We have known that for some time. The section says that he may attend. Does that mean that he may attend if he wishes to do so or that he may attend if he is permitted to do so? I do not know what it means. I think that the county officer, as he is described here, could say to the executive committee “I may attend if I like.” It does not say that he may attend at anyone's behest. If he is the servant absolutely of the council, then it should be automatic that he attends when he is required to do so.

References were made to the manner in which the rate is to be struck. There is nothing very novel or new in this provision as compared with the provisions in the County Management Act. The disguised county manager who is now the "county officer"—it is a pity we did not provide him with some garb to ensure that we would not confuse him with being a manager because of the powers he has and will still retain—must prepare an estimate. He must produce that estimate within so many days before the striking of the rate. He must deposit a copy of it in the office. He must send a copy of it to every member of the council of the local authority. What happens then? Section 40, sub-section (5) lays it down that a copy of the proposed estimates shall be deposited in the offices of the council open to inspection by every member of the public. What can a member of the public do? He can read the estimates. He can get into touch with some representative of the local authority and tell him to object to some particular expenditure or to increase or decrease some other expenditure. One might spend months discussing the striking of a rate. We all know that it has to be struck by a certain date from the statutory point of view. Nothing can happen except that it will be given the appearance of complete public control in a democratic sense. The so-called "county officer" prepares the estimate. He deposits a copy of it in the office and the public may walk in and inspect it. Five or six hundred people may come in together if they wish and if the premises permit of it; they can demand to see the rate that is being struck. Very little business will be done in that way. I do not know what all the fuss is about. The Coalition Government indicated its determination to abolish county management and to restore control of local affairs to the public.

Whom are you quoting?

I am quoting the Coalition Government. Deputy Davin as a member of that Government talked often enough——

I did not.

Deputy Davin spoke here on many occasions in criticism of managers.

Not on that.

I do not know whether he has spoken on this measure or whether he proposes to speak on it. Up to the present he has contented himself with throwing his own peculiar little darts, hoping they are reaching a target where they will hurt. May I tell Deputy Davin that his darts mean nothing? They very rarely hit the bull's-eye. As a result of the propaganda of the spokesmen of the Coalition Government the public believed county management would be abolished. It was said that it was a restriction of the rights of elected representatives. Now we have a series of amendments to the County Management Act. We have a change of name. I would recommend every member to read the comments made by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Corish, as to the reasons underlying this provision. He actually said that if for no other reason than to change from the name "manager" the Bill was justified. I cannot understand how experienced adults, such as Deputies are, can attach importance to continuing the same system but standing for it because it has a different name.

The dishonesty in this Bill is not inherent in the Bill itself. It lies in the fact that this Bill was kept hidden away until after the local elections. We had people down the country emphasing the importance of the election of local representatives, telling the boys that the good old days were going to come back again, the good old days when they would have the letting of labourers' cottages and perhaps an odd "fiver", when they would have the appointment of doctors which in some cases used to cost an unfortunate fellow £1,000. They were told that all those happy days were going to come back again, that the manager was going to be abolished and got rid of, that root and branch he was going to be wiped out.

I do not know what is going to happen now. I visualise a whole series of resignations from local authorities when councillors find that they were bluffed into standing for election under the idea that they were going to have about ten times the salary of a Dáil Deputy out of it, and now they are going to have nothing. I do not know how this thing is going to wind up. My opinion is that you will have widespread resignations from councillors who were bluffed into standing for election to the local bodies under the impression that the good old days were going to come back, now that they find that such is not the case.

Did they not read the Bill before the elections?

They had not the Bill before the elections nor anything like the Bill before the elections. Anybody who had ever read the speeches made in this House by Deputy Davin about county managers would never dream of seeing Deputy Davin stand up here this evening and ask the Parliamentary Secretary the perfectly idiotic question that he did ask, and then sitting back quite satisfied with the answer. The Deputy inquired whether the county manager would have to consult the council about the people whom he proposed to nominate as tenants of houses, and whether he would have to inform the council as to whom he intended to appoint. No matter how many objections the council might make, the county manager is going to have the final say. The council might think that a man with a wife and ten children were better entitled to a house than a man with a wife and one child, but as the manager has the final say he can appoint whomever he likes, despite whatever Deputy Davin, the council or anybody else might think. I hope Deputy Davin now realises what the position is.

Thanks very much.

If he does not I would advise him to read the Bill again. If he does he will see that the council has no power under this Bill—not an iota. The weakest apology that I have ever heard for the Bill was that made by the Parliamentary Secretary to-night. He told us all about the executive committees. I happen to have been a member of a local authority for the past twenty-six years. I can say from my experience that any council that is going to take its business seriously can and will appoint those executive committees. We have them at present.

Recently, we spent a whole fortnight appointing such committees in the County Cork without this Bill at all. We appointed the same committees as we had before the elections. We did that without worrying about this Bill. We appointed three health committees for the county. These health committees will deal with work concerning water supplies, labourers' cottages, housing generally, sewerage and all sanitary work. We have them in North, South and West Cork, and every member of the council in the particular area is a member of the committee. As regards these executive committees, one-third of the members are to be given some little functions to perform, but the remainder will be only ornamental. We have a board of public assistance for the South Cork area, composed partly of corporation or city representatives and partly of county representatives. I suppose the mental hospital committees will continue and the county committee of agriculture. We had a special roads committee and an area roads committee. All these committees are already in existence. They all worked under the Management Act as it was. I suggest to the Minister that the Bill makes no change so far as these committees are concerned. I cannot see where any change is made.

We are told that these executive committees will have the power to question the estimates. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary was ever a member of the Wexford County Council.

If he was ever a member of a local authority under the County Management Act, or was a member of any local authority, he should know that members are entitled to question any portion of the estimates and to reduce or to increase them. That was the main power that was left to the local authorities—the power over finance. The council will have no power to make appointments, even though some of the new councillors may have thought that they would be able to reward their election agents. On one occasion in Cork two eminent Deputies of this House said that men were given premiums for boars because they were their election agents. When a row occurred between them, and when a second premium was given one of them was asked the question: "Was he your election agent?" and he replied: "You may be hand full sure he was."

Some of the boys who were elected recently had this carrot held out before them—the abolition of the county manager, and the expectation that everyone was going to get this, that and the other. They are going to be disappointed when they find out what their powers under this new democratic legislation are going to be. They will soon discover that they cannot appoint anyone to do the smallest thing. With the exception of the change in the obnoxious name of manager, everything is left practically as it was before.

Deputy MacEntee is listening to you.

I do not mind whether he is or not. I am stating what my experience has been for the past 25 years in public life as a member of a county council. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the executive committee could challenge certain things. Can any other member apart from the executive committee now challenge the estimate? Is the ordinary member of a county council now entitled to challenge any portion of the estimate? Is the power to challenge, which we had under the County Management Act, reserved for the executive committee to be set up under this Bill? I can quite visualise a team of the boys getting together and getting on the executive committee but will the new council have the same power over finance— the provision of finance and the withholding of finance—as they had under the County Management Act? These are questions on which I should like some information from the Minister. Who is to have the last word on the striking of the rate? Who is to have the last word on what the rate is to be? Are the ordinary members of the council to have it or is that right to be taken away now? Can I, as an ordinary member of the council, challenge whether £100,000 or £150,000 will be spent on the roads? Can I, as an ordinary member of the council, propose, when the Minister robs £80,000 or £90,000 from the road funds of the county, that that money should be paid back by the ratepayers? Is that now a function of the manager?

I compliment the Minister, first of all, on withholding the Bill and avoiding the debate on the Second Reading until after the elections. I compliment him also on his wisdom in not being so foolish as to attempt to go back to the position that existed before county managers were appointed.

On a question of fact, that Bill was circulated before the local elections, whether the Deputy got a copy or not.

Deputy Davin did not make any point on it during the elections.

I am talking not about the circulation of the Bill but of the fact that the people were not given an opportunity of reading the discussion on the Second Reading and the criticism of the Bill in this House.

I hope they are saved from that.

The poor fools who were bluffed into standing for local authorities last month under the impression that they would be quite happy if they were elected, rambling in now and again to elect a doctor for some dispensary when there might be £1,000 to be divided amongst the boys, were sadly misled.

I do not know, a Chinn Chomhairle, whether there ought to be some protection for the good name of the country.

There was no particular person named. Various classes are attacked frequently in this House. No person was named.

The whole country is named.

What about Maximoe?

I do not know under what sandhill the Deputy hid his head for the last 50 years but if he were a member of a local authority before certain changes were brought about he would know all about what I am saying.

I have never known of it since Sinn Féin took control.

I can assure the Deputy that if the Bill Deputy Davin was hoping for was brought in here, to give back the powers to these bodies that they possessed some years ago, I would be able to give some specific instances of certain matters to which I am now alluding broadly and I would make no bones about it. I was complimenting the Minister on his wisdom in not handing these powers back to the local authorities. The fact that he has not done so would indicate that very few bad managers were appointed. I know that there was very little about which our county managers did not consult the members of the council. There was very little about which the assistant managers—and there are three of them—did not consult the members of the council.

I had hoped that when a Bill of this description was being brought in advantage would be taken of the opportunity to remedy some other serious defects. For instance, under the present regulations in regard to the letting of cottages—I do not mean new houses but the old ones—the manager is bound to select the man recommended by the county medical officer of health. That to my mind is a bad regulation. I have seen an instance where a man who had been working on the land for fourteen to sixteen years with a farmer was looking for a house. A tribe of tinkers went into a disused house in the same district and on the strict regulations as laid down the agricultural labourer had to be refused a vacant house and it had to be given to the tinkers.

Surely there is nothing wrong in being a tinker.

There is something wrong with this law or regulation as it stands at present. I called the attention of the previous Minister to that repeatedly. But the fact remains still and I had hoped that when changes were being made something would be done. After all you only find out the effects of a Bill when you are working it for a period. We all know that. This particular regulation to which I am alluding was certainly brought in to prevent undue influence in the giving of cottages or things of that description but it had a different effect—it kept out of the labourer's cottages the men who had first right and claim to them, the agricultural labourers working on the land. Go into any parish or any district and you will find in the houses the men with the worst character in the parish. They must get the labourer's cottages to the detriment of decent working labourers.

Those are the defects which I hoped would be covered by the Minister in the Local Government Bill when he was dealing with it at all. Instead of that those defects remain and those blots remain and we have to find ways and means of getting round them. Another instance—it is of peculiar interest to Deputy Captain Cowan—is that anybody serving in the Defence Forces of this nation cannot get a house.

He can get it now.

He cannot.

Since the recent Housing Act, yes.

That is one of the defects removed.

We changed that, thanks be to God.

Thanks be to God you did, to make up for your other sins.

If we had been here longer we would have changed a lot of other things.

At the rate you are going you will not change much.

We will not change Deputy Corry.

No damn fear. I have seen people come and go and I will see more of you go and I will look around here at a bunch of new faces.

Those are the matters I would like to hear some statement about from the Minister and I would like to hear from him who has the power of finance. Is it the local authority or is it now moved to the county officer? That to my mind is the most important thing I want to know.

Secondly, is the right to challenge any portion of an estimate, whether it be for the purpose of increasing or reducing it, vested in the whole council? Has each member of the local authority the same power in that or is it reserved to this executive committee? I would like to know those things in particular before the Committee Stage of the Bill is reached.

They are after all the kernel of our local administration. This Bill for good or ill will have to control the acts of the new councils that are elected. Instead of being an increase in power as we were told it was going to be and a giving back of functions is it instead of that going to be a further curtailment of functions and a further curtailment of rights? "Take what control you like but give me control of the purse." That is what I am most interested in in this matter. I am aware of the anxiety of the Minister's Department to infringe as far as they could on the control of finance by the local authorities, and I have very grave doubts as to what the position will be under this Bill.

I have given here a list of the committees that are at present functioning under the County Management Act, and which have been reappointed in Cork county. Each body has its own function. All they have of course is the power of recommendation to the council. Will those executive committees and sub-committees which the Minister has mentioned have only the power of recommendation to the council or will they have the power of recommendation to the manager instead? Can they and the manager do the whole work between them cutting out the ordinary elected representatives on the council? Those are matters which the Minister must clear up when replying. Otherwise we will have to come along and shove in a host of amendments and this Bill, which in the ordinary case as the Parliamentary Secretary put it means only the changing of a name from "county manager" to "county officer," might hold up this House for weeks on the Committee Stage.

For my part I am glad that the Minister has not given way to the anxieties of Deputy O'Leary and I congratulate him on being able to bluff Deputy O'Leary up to the present as to the extended powers and functions which Deputy O'Leary thinks have been handed over to the councils.

What are you worrying about?

I am congratulating the Minister on being able to bluff Deputy O'Leary to that extent and bluff him so handily.

You are a fool.

At the same time the Minister was wise in not giving way to the recommendation of Deputy O'Leary, and not alone Deputy O'Leary but the others whom I heard on every Estimate for Local Government here since the County Management Act came in spending hours in attacks on the County Management Act and its functions, and on the county managers and what they were doing. Instead the association between the county manager and the assistant county manager in Cork and the elected representatives has always been most cordial. There has been very little on which they have not consulted the ordinary members of the council. At times we have had some questions as to our rights——

This, if I might suggest it, is repetition, but as Deputy Corry says a thousand pleasant things apparently he can never say adieu.

I did not catch the Deputy.

He wants you to move the adjournment.

I had hoped that the Deputy would stop before that.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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