Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1950

Vol. 123 No. 5

Coinage Bill, 1950—Second Stage.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McGilligan)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill comes to the Dáil from the Seanad. It was decided to introduce that measure in the Seanad partly for the reason that the Bill is of a consolidating nature and secondly, because no important question of principle arises on it. The proof of the second matter is that in the Seanad the Bill was regarded virtually as a non-contentious measure and there was no division on it at any point. The only changes it made in the legislation as it was originally introduced were a few drafting amendments where deficiencies in drafting were revealed in the course of the discussion. I myself brought in a very limited number of drafting amendments to meet such points that I had discovered. If I go on to repeat the general features of it I will be repeating to a great extent what I said in the Seanad but even though most Deputies will have read what I said, I suppose I must take it that they are without information on the matter and go over the same ground again.

Before 1928 the coins in circulation consisted of British coins of either gold, silver or copper prior to the Act of 1926 which provided for an issue of Irish token coins. The first coins bore the date of the year 1928. The Act of 1926 was amended. Certain amendments were made to it by the Currency Act of 1927 and others by the Central Bank Act of 1942 but that Act of 1926 has remained the Principal Act on the Statute Book, the main statute dealing with Irish token coins and that Act will be repealed by the present Bill. The main purpose of this Bill is to authorise the issue in cupro-nickel of coins, 1/-, 2/- and 2/6, in place of the silver coins of those denominations issued under the Act of 1926. The 1926 Act was amended in the case of 3d. and 6d. pieces by the Central Bank Act of 1942. That provided for the issue of cupro-nickel coins instead of nickel coins of those denominations and this legislation will complete the transition to cupro-nickel and provide that new coins of the denominations 1/-, 2/- and 2/6 as well as coins of the denominations 3d. and 6d. will be made of cupro-nickel. Coins of lower denominations, 1d., ½d. and ¼d., will continue to be made of bronze. The Central Bank is, of course, authorised under this legislation to keep in circulation silver coins or nickel coins issued under the 1926 Act and, of course, cupro-nickel coins issued under the Central Bank Act. When this legislation becomes law arrangements will be made for a gradual withdrawal through the agencies of the banks of Irish silver coins and to replace them by cupro-nickel coins.

These changes are being made mainly because of the uncertainty about future supplies of silver and because of the uncertainty with regard to the price of silver. Prices have risen considerably in the past and if they continue to rise a further issue of silver coins would become unprofitable. There is, indeed, the danger that eventually silver coins might be hoarded and melted down. These considerations as regards silver supplies and prices have led to the complete replacement in the British token coinage system of silver coins by cupro-nickel. The use of precious metals is a rare occurrence now and on the Continent they are using base metals instead.

Cupro-nickel is considered to possess all the qualities requisite in a satisfactory coinage. It is intended that the new coins will have exactly the same design, diameter and weight as the existing silver coins. Cupro-nickel coins usually consist of 75 per cent. copper and 25 per cent. nickel. This is specified in the Bill as the standard composition of Irish cupro-nickel coins. Power is being taken, however, in Section 5 to very, by Order, the standard composition of cupro-nickel coins and there is a further section, Section 6, which enables the issue, under Orders which will be subject to confirmation by resolution of each House of the Oireachtas, of coins of any metal or mixture of metals other than gold, silver or cupro-nickel, whether or not including copper or nickel. This latter provision would permit the introduction of a pure nickel coinage without fresh parliamentary legislation and enable advantage to be taken of any minor improvement in the metallic composition of the coinage which may be discovered in future, for instance, the introduction of small portions of a third metal.

It is anomalous to have different legal tender limits for coins which have the same metallic composition, and, accordingly, it is proposed by Section 12 to remove the legal tender limit of 5/- in the case of 3d. and 6d. pieces and to make it lawful to tender these, like coins of higher denominations, in payment of debts not exceeding 40/-. In other words, all cupro-nickel coins will have the same legal tender status. The bronze coins will continue to be legal tender for the payment of amounts not exceeding 1/-.

The Bill also resolves certain doubts which have arisen as to whether British coins circulating in this country are legal tender. It expressly reserves legal tender status to token coins under the 1926 Act and subsequent legislation; that is to say, legal tender is reserved to Irish token coins only. Token coins are issued through the Central Bank as the agent for the Minister for Finance. The expenses of the issue are charged against the currency reserve maintained by the Central Bank and the proceeds of issue are credited to the same reserve. The proceeds of the melting down of coins withdrawn from circulation and of coins held by the Central Bank and not required for issue or re-issue will also, under Section 14, be credited to the currency reserve.

The opportunity afforded by the Bill is being availed of to consolidate the law relating to Irish token coins. Provision is made for the repeal of the Coinage Act, 1926, of Part VIII of the Central Bank Act, 1942 and of other legislation dealing with token coinage. The live provisions of these statutes are incorporated in this Bill and amongst the provisions so preserved are those relating to expenses and disposal of proceeds of issue to which I have already referred, to copyright in Irish coins, which will continue to be vested in the Minister for Finance, and to the publication of reproductions of Irish coins, which will continue to be prohibited unless the Minister for Finance allows it. Since the Bill went through the Seanad, a few other items have come to light which require amendment. An examination of the Bill has revealed this and I propose to circulate a few amendments which are almost entirely of a drafting nature in connection with these.

Mr. Briscoe

I should like to take this opportunity of asking the Minister whether he would be prepared to accept an amendment or to introduce an amendment himself to prevent the Central Bank from disposing of the bullion resulting from the calling-in and melting down of silver coinage and to ensure that such bullion will be kept here by the Central Bank, in view, particularly, of what he has said with regard to the reasons for the introduction of the Bill. He has pointed out, and the House will agree with him in this, that the uncertainty with regard to the value of silver is one of the main reasons for its introduction. We might find ourselves in the position, if we had not got the Bill, of issuing silver coinage at a loss to the Exchequer because the coinage would have a greater intrinsic value than its face value. If the Minister will not introduce such an amendment, I will ask the leave of the House to do so, for the purpose of retaining this bullion in the Central Bank and to remove any power to dispose of it and to credit it to the currency reserve.

The Minister has made it clear that, once this Bill becomes law, British coinage will not be legal coinage here. It has always been the position that our silver coinage has not been acceptable across the water, but what is the position with regard to the quantity of silver coinage which is in circulation in the Twenty-Six Counties?

Mr. McGilligan

British coins?

Mr. Briscoe

Yes. Will the Minister authorise the handing back to the Central Bank by the banks of this silver coinage for retention as bullion, the property of this country, or are the British coins to be handed back to Britain, with a possible consequent loss to us in relation to the value of silver when silver will rise in value, in view particularly of our history of having handed over our gold to the British so often with consequent loss to ourselves?

I have no objection to the idea behind the Bill, but I feel that, in view of the situation developing in the world, we should take advantage of the opportunity to lay the foundations for building up within our own control certain commodities as guarantees for our own currency to our own people and whatever other people might wish to take our currency in the form of the establishment of trade credits. I feel very strongly that the time has come when we should lay the foundation for the collection of commodities which will be of immense value to us in time to come, if the general tendency of things continues as it is.

Mr. Cogan

Now that we are recasting our currency, we should avail of the opportunity to discard the unnational, unworthy and, as I would say, pagan representations which disfigure our coinage. I am not one of those who suggested or would suggest for one moment that religious emblems or anything of the kind should be used on our coinage, but we should avail of this opportunity to make our coinage more national in character by having on them representations of leading figures in our national history. The emblems upon our coinage are altogether unworthy of a nation with our civilisation and history. Domestic and wild animals may have a certain appeal for certain people, but I do not think that they are sufficiently important to be embodied in our currency. Some people will say that the representations on our coinage are a tribute to the agricultural industry, but I do not think anyone will claim that hares or woodcock represent any industry in the country except, perhaps, the poaching industry. I should like the Minister to give the House an indication that he has given some consideration to that matter. There are a great many national figures in our history who could be honoured and represented on our currency. I do not see any reason why that should not be done.

I want to make it clear, as a farmer Deputy, that the animals portrayed on our coinage do not reflect any honour on the agricultural industry even. We have some coins with a representation of a sow with a very small litter of bonhams. We have also a representation of the antiquated hen which the Minister for Agriculture has been seeking to eliminate and replace by artificial methods of incubation. I am not quite sure whether the bull represented on our 1/- is a dual-purpose bull or conforms with the regulations as to conformation which are required by the Department of Agriculture. I think the whole matter requires some consideration and that we should avail of this change to improve the whole set-up of our various types of coinage, to pay some tribute at any rate to our philosophy, to our history, to our culture, and to our nationality generally.

Mr. Derrig

I think the suggestion of Deputy Briscoe is worthy of examination because the amount of gold in the currency reserve is limited and there must be an important psychological value in having precious metals to a substantial extent provided in that reserve. The £1,000,000 or so, which I understand is the value of the silver in the coinage after the deduction has been made for the cost of the new cupro-nickel coinage to replace it, is not a great sum of money, but when one has regard to the increasing value of silver and to the fact that every article of value in the way of silver is being carefully garnered in this country, collected for exportation to the U.S.A., we may find ourselves in the position that there is practically no silver available in the country. While the Minister, no doubt, will be guided by considerations of currency and economy, I think that Deputy Briscoe's suggestion is, at any rate, worthy of examination.

There is a further point, and that is, if the Minister decides eventually that whatever silver is taken in will be melted down and sold out of the country, whether the proceeds will be permanently in the reserve. As I understand—I have not looked into the matter specially—at present a certain contribution is made by the currency reserve—I think £400,000 was the amount in recent years—to the Exchequer. I do not know whether that is a statutory sum or whether, in circumstances, it may be increased. But it is certainly of value, whether the money is melted down and kept as bullion or whether it is sold and the proceeds put into the currency reserve, that that reserve should be as substantial and as solid as possible. I think it should be generally recognised that it should be part of the State policy to do everything that is possible to strengthen our currency and give it that stability and public confidence that is necessary to get the best results.

The present measure is really one of economy and, while from the point of view of economy and finance, there are no doubt good reasons for the steps which the Minister is taking, one cannot allow the opportunity to pass without calling attention to the fact that the small coinage which in the past was of value to the housewife, has become less and less valuable as time went on. The significance of the currency position is the extraordinary increase in the amount of paper money in circulation. The total amount of silver, nickel and bronze coinage has less than doubled since the pre-war period, whereas the amount of notes in circulation seems to have increased by more than three times, apart altogether from bank money, which has increased in at least an equal proportion. We have no idea whether the production of goods in the country has kept pace with that. It will no doubt be argued that it has and that the increased monetary circulation is necessary to meet the demands of business and the needs of the people. But I think the Minister ought to give the country the opportunity of enabling it to make up its mind as to whether the production of goods and, in particular, the output per man, have kept pace with the extraordinary increase in money, whether notes or cheques or coinage, in circulation.

Looking at the figures, I see that the quarterly return of the average note circulation shows that there has been an increase of £3,500,000 this year as compared with last year. We have no idea whether the production of goods has kept pace with that. The best authorities, including the Central Bank, which is our monetary authority here, are of opinion that, unless the production of goods can be encouraged to a proportionate extent so that the balance of payments situation will be eased, the increased circulation of money has a deleterious effect on the general welfare of the country in that it prevents our pound from retaining its value. I think we can all agree also that, if circumstances obtain where you have a larger circulation of money than is necessary——

Mr. McGilligan

Is the Deputy talking of token coins?

Mr. Derrig

No, I am talking of the general circulation of money.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not know whether it is relevant.

Mr. Derrig

It ought to be relevant because we are discussing the question of currency.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, coinage.

Mr. Derrig

Is not the coinage part of our currency?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In respect of token coinage.

Mr. Derrig

Surely we are entitled to ask the Government what their policy is with regard to the amount of money in circulation on a measure of this kind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We could very easily get into a very wide discussion if we were to allow that— a discussion far beyond the terms of this Bill.

Mr. Derrig

We do not get very many opportunities——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid that this is not one of them.

Mr. McGilligan

We have not got it this time.

Mr. Derrig

If the Chair considers that it is out of order to discuss the general question of the circulation of money and its effect on our economic circumstances and the welfare of the people, I shall not pursue the matter. Perhaps, however, I might be allowed to refer to a statement which was made by the late George Bernard Shaw to the effect that Henry VIII cheated his creditors by giving them short weight in his silver coins and Mr. Shaw continued to point out that modern Governments have got over that difficulty by no longer depending upon the ordinary coinage, since they have paper money to fall back on.

The report of the Central Bank for the year 1950 is not yet available. When may we expect to receive that report and, in connection with the question of currency, I should like to ask whether there is any possibility that further information will be given in the monthly Statistical Bulletin, issued by the Statistics Department, regarding the currency position? Would it be possible that summaries of the statements, if statements are supplied, from the banks to the Central Bank, could be given at as near a date as convenient after they are supplied so as to enable the House and the public to ascertain the position? It is very important, in discussions in connection with the cost-of-living figure and index figures generally, that the fullest possible information as to the currency situation should be made available at the earliest time.

The fact that this measure is being introduced and that the Minister is taking responsibility for it is, I hope, an indication that this House is the supreme authority in dealing with matters of currency and coinage and that the Central Bank is the agency through which the policy and legislation, as passed by this House, is put into effect.

Mr. Hickey

Am I to understand that this Coinage Bill has nothing at all to do with the Central Bank, as mentioned by Deputy Derrig?

Mr. McGilligan

Nothing at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has the Bill before him.

Mr. Hickey

I do not see anything at all in the Bill in regard to the Central Bank.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We do not want to go into the question of currency. That would have very wide ramifications, far removed from the provisions of this Bill which are limited to token coinage.

Mr. Hickey

I am merely interested in coinage. I hope the point made by Deputy Briscoe will be considered by the Minister, as I am sure it will. I hope that, in the interests of the community, we will take complete control over any English silver coins which may be in this country.

I agree with Deputy Cogan that the images on our own coinage are not all that we would expect them to be. We could have many other types of images on our coins of a more or less national or sentimental character but I do not approve of having the image of a fowl, horse, bull, salmon and so forth on our coins. It is possible that we are trying to be distinctive in having images of an agricultural character on our coins but there are other types of images which would, in my opinion, be more suitable for that purpose.

Mr. Little

Am I to understand that, since the Act of 1926, British coins are not strictly legal tender?

Mr. McGilligan

There has been some doubt about it. This measure provides that there will be no doubt about it hereafter.

Mr. Little

Then it was more or less by voluntary consent that the coins were accepted?

Mr. McGilligan

There were arrangements with regard to the repatriation of British coinage, but there was some doubt here as to whether British token coins were legal tender. This Bill makes it clear that they are not. I do not think there was much doubt about the old position, but this Bill will clear all doubts.

Mr. Little

There was an enormous quantity of British threepenny bits in the Central Bank when it was under the control of the old Currency Commission. I have often wondered what happened to them.

Mr. McGilligan

There were two arrangements for repatriation, but they have lapsed now. There was a good deal of handing back of coins: I am not speaking of threepenny bits in particular, because I was not aware of the point to which the Deputy refers. There is no arrangement at the moment, but we are hoping to make one.

Mr. Little

This debate brings back recollections of old debates in this House. I remember that I said in 1927 that we should have got back our gold that we had in this country before the 1914 war and that we did not get back at that time. It must be obvious that if we had got it back when I made that suggestion, the gold would be worth twice as much now as it was then.

Mr. McGilligan

It might not have been economic to keep it.

Mr. Little

Compare the 1927 price to that ruling to-day.

Mr. McGilligan

If anybody in 1914, 1918 or 1924 could have foreseen the price to which gold would go—but the calculation would have been different about keeping unrewarded gold instead of security.

Mr. Little

Just compare the 1927 price to that of to-day. The same argument holds because it kept on rising.

Mr. McGilligan

Yes—if we could have foreseen the future. The Deputy is talking about a hindsight instead of foresight.

Mr. Dockrell

What about the lack of interest since then?

Mr. Little

There is the idea in many countries now of the stock-piling of various commodities. That idea applies, in this instance, to silver. It might be very wise for the Government to hold the silver even if it is not in circulation.

Mr. McGilligan

Would the Central Bank not be a fairly good authority to rely on in connection with that point?

Mr. Little

I suppose we shall have to rely on it.

Mr. McGilligan

You, as the Government, made us rely on it.

Mr. Little

We are advising the Government now, out of experience gained in the past, that the thing should be done in the future. I have often heard the comment that the images on our coins are not very ennobling, as it were. The Minister, as a classical professor, and from his knowledge of numismatics, must surely be aware of that. I think that it will be found that in the history of coinage there was never a country that did not have some sort of ideal imaged on its coins: it may have been a religious ideal or a representation of the sovereignty of the country, and so forth.

Mr. McGilligan

Most of the best old-time coinage was Grecian and they had animals.

Mr. Little

One might crack jokes about Wood's halfpence and shades of Jonathan Swift when we are passing to baser metals. In view of the fact that all the main body of credit now is done by transactions between the banks, I think this matter is one of minor importance.

Mr. Hickey

Very minor importance.

Mr. Kissane

This Bill, it appears to me, aims at doing a certain thing. It aims at the debasement of our coinage and is a similar attempt to that which was made in the time of Dean Swift, when he wrote his famous Drapier's Letters and said that if that coinage were adopted people would have to draw it in horses and carts to pay for their goods.

Reference has been made to the circulation of British money in this country and Deputy Briscoe referred to the circulation of our coinage in England. I cannot understand why it is not possible to use Irish coins freely in England, just as English coins are used freely in this country. I do not know what the reason is. Of course, the same thing applies to paper money. I understand that, in order to get change for paper money in England, one must go to a bank and pay some small commission. If that is the case, there must be something wrong with the position.

Mr. Hickey

We are not in control.

Mr. Kissane

The Deputy is referring to the control of currency. We are not allowed to debate that here.

Mr. Hickey

It all follows.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. Sweetman)

Not on this Bill.

Mr. Kissane

I want to know why that is the position. I have had experience of it. I was unable to use Irish money on my travels on the other side of the Channel.

Mr. McGilligan

Was that long ago?

Mr. Kissane

Very recently. If British money is given free circulation here and if there are no conditions attaching to it, the same thing should apply to our paper money and coins in Britain.

Mr. Hickey

I got only 19/- for a Scotch note recently.

Mr. McGilligan

You do not want us to take up with the Scotch note now, do you?

Mr. Kissane

There is one thing about which I should like to be clear. In connection with the scheme to use cupro-nickel instead of silver, is it intended to interfere with the coins that are already in circulation?

Mr. McGilligan

After a bit, yes, when we get the new issue.

Mr. Kissane

Will they be withdrawn from circulation?

Mr. McGilligan

We hope so. We hope to arrange gradually for the withdrawal.

Mr. Kissane

For the withdrawal of the current coins?

Mr. McGilligan

Yes.

Mr. Kissane

Both silver and cupro-nickel?

Mr. McGilligan

Silver.

Mr. Kissane

Only silver. As far as I can see, if that is the case, there is nothing to prevent the hoarding of coins from now on, until such time as the position will be changed. Has the Minister envisaged that?

Mr. McGilligan

Yes.

Mr. Kissane

Is not there a possibility that people will take stock of what is being done and will collect as much silver coins as they can? I do not know whether there would be any remedy for that or any way of preventing hoarding. If there is no attempt being made at the present time to call in silver coins that are in circulation, what is to prevent people from hoarding these coins, which will be more valuable later on than the new coins that will be put on the market?

I have often wondered if it would not be possible in this country to have a note of smaller denomination than 10/-. Everybody realises that paper money is easier to handle than coins. The United States of America have the dollar bill which, I suppose, would be almost equivalent to 6/- now. That would obviate a great deal of trouble. That is a matter which can be considered later on.

As we are not permitted to discuss the question of currency and the advisability or otherwise of breaking the link with sterling, there is nothing more I can usefully say on this Bill.

Mr. McGilligan

If Deputy Briscoe cares to put down an amendment on the matter he mentioned first, I will have it considered. Deputy Briscoe's point was that he desired to put some impediment in the way of the Central Bank disposing of whatever bullion they may acquire from melting down silver coins instead of crediting the proceeds to the currency reserves. Deputy Briscoe will no doubt be reminded by some of his colleagues that in the year 1942 the Government which he supported passed an Act called the Central Bank Act of that year. Section 7 of that Act makes it lawful for the Central Bank to do one or all of a number of things. One is to buy or sell coin or gold or silver bullion or any foreign currency. They had power to hold or to sell it. I understood, when the Central Bank was set up, that the purpose of that institution was that people who were experienced and talented with regard to certain monetary matters were to be put in charge of the Central Bank and that that institution, when established, would be given the series of powers in Section 7. There are in fact some powers given to the Central Bank of that day that I questioned when the 1942 Act was going through and which I hope to question in another way hereafter, but I think this question of whether they should hold or sell such silver as might come from the melting down of coins when withdrawn from circulation, is a matter that might well be left to them.

I do not know whom Deputy Briscoe would ask to advise on such matters as to whether it would be better to sell whatever silver was accumulated by the melting down of silver coins. I do not know who would be a better adviser on the point as to whether that ought to be sold or held. As regards the suggestion about better advice, I will have that considered. There are some powers I would not be disposed to interfere with, and some of the other powers given to the board of the Central Bank I would rather see dealt with in a different way.

A point arises with regard to British coinage. There were two agreements lasting ten years as between the two countries. On the repatriation of British coinage, I would like to point out that the British are themselves withdrawing whatever silver coinage they have in circulation; they are doing what we are doing here. It is possible we may see a certain amount of silver coins which are of the English type. I might make profit out of them, but I am not sure that it would be a wise thing to do.

Deputy Cogan and Deputy Hickey have raised a question with regard to the design of the coinage. I want to draw attention to one aspect of this matter because I may have misled the House in relation to the legislation going through. There is a certain situation. I referred to Section 5 and I contrasted that with Section 6. I pointed out that Section 5 enabled the standard composition of coins to be changed by Order and that would not be subject to confirmation by this House, whereas certain things under Section 6 are subject to confirmation. They may be done by Order but that would not be operative unless it is affirmatively approved by the two Houses of the Oireachtas. I can change the design under Section 5. That can be done by regulation and that would not require authority from this House.

Personally, I would not be disposed to change the design. I heard much more favourable comment in regard to the design of Irish coins than criticism or condemnation. Possibly there are people who feel that we ought to have certain national figures represented on our coins, something more in the nature of a sentimental attachment to our coinage than, perhaps, would be represented by merely depicting the produce of the country. On the whole, our coins have merited approval. They were brought in by one Government and another Government that lasted for 16 years had power to change them but did not think it worth while to bother about doing so. I do not think there is any great volume of critical opinion, any volume sufficient to sway anyone to make a change. I propose to leave the designs as they are until there is some better argument advanced showing that a change would be welcomed by the mass of the people.

Deputy Kissane talked about the debasing of the coinage and he referred to the Swift Letters. The Swift Drapier's Letters were mainly against the handing over of the proceeds of a debased coinage to an individual for certain rather unworthy favours that that gentleman was giving. In this case, I think Deputy Kissane need have no concern. The State is taking whatever benefit will be derived from what the Deputy describes as the debasing of the coinage. In any event, debasing is only a relative term. We are somewhat apprehensive that the point may be soon reached where the silver in the coinage may be so valuable as to render necessary some further consideration in regard to it.

The Deputy raised another point. He asked me did I not realise that a situation might arise where people might be induced to hoard. There is in this Bill an offence section, Section 19, which prohibits any person other than the Central Bank from melting down, breaking up or using otherwise than as currency any coin which is for the time being current in this State or in any other country. What more can we do except to make it unlawful and impose penalties? When this matter was examined in the Seanad a fine not exceeding £100 per offence was mentioned and that offence might be associated with each particular coin melted down. If there is any apprehension on this aspect of the legislation, the way to meet it is by some amendment of Section 19—to impose a bigger penalty.

There is a danger and, as the price of silver increases, the danger is all the nearer. However, I do not think in the immediate future it is going to be profitable for anybody to hoard, for anybody to take a decision to collect and hoard coins in the hope that eventually it might be profitable outside the law—in the hope that a person doing these things could escape the law and make a gain. The sooner we get rid of that idea the better.

There is another point to be considered and that is that the silver coinage is in the position that new supplies will be required and if this Bill is not passed soon and if new supplies of silver have to be got, the price at which silver may be obtainable may become a difficult one and it may become an onerous matter to institute a fresh issue of silver coins—and silver may go even higher still.

Deputy Kissane raised a point with reference to small notes. That hardly arises in relation to this measure, but it will get consideration. As Deputies know, there are many countries notorious for issuing notes of small denominations. There are certain objections to paper notes. If the Deputy is agitated about debased coins, then I suggest that paper notes would be a still greater debasement.

When this legislation becomes statute law, after some time an arrangement will be made to have the coinage in circulation withdrawn by imposing a designation of non-legal tender upon it. One cannot do this quickly or speedily but it is hoped that over a period the coins will come in. As regards English coins, we will have to make some arrangement about repatriation—some new arrangement.

The Deputy raised a further point as to our notes and the commission charged upon them abroad. The Deputy must accept responsibility for that himself because it was the Deputy's Government that made the arrangement. Unfortunately, the arrangement is only a one-way arrangement. Legislation was passed and people thought it was a definite arrangement, a two-way arrangement, but that is not so. Our note has on the face of it a very simple statement, and that is that it is redeemable at face value in the Bank of England.

This commission to which the Deputy referred is sometimes charged by hotels or restaurants and the people who charge it say that that is to repay their trouble in going to the Bank of England and getting the appropriate amount there. That is the type of currency for which the Deputy was responsible. It would, of course, be more satisfactory if there was complete reciprocity and if our notes were freely taken by hotels and restaurants, as notes are taken here. However, I do not think that the occasion on which there is an initial charge on notes arises very often.

Mr. Hickey

I tendered a 10/- note in a post office a couple of months ago and it would not be accepted.

Mr. McGilligan

One is entitled not to accept it. You are entitled to say: "I will take this on chance" and ask for 2d. or 3d. on it. Everyone knows that the English note is accepted here. Deputy Hickey raised the question of the Scotch note. They have exactly the same complaint and criticism, when they go to London, as we have with regard to our notes. Therefore, it does not mean that if we went back into the Union we would be any better off.

Mr. Little

Would the Minister make sure that the coins will fit into the slots of the telephone boxes?

Mr. McGilligan

We are having the same weight, diameter and everything else, with that object.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. Sweetman)

When will the Committee Stage be taken?

Mr. McGilligan

This day week. I have a few drafting amendments, which will be circulated right away.

Committee Stage ordered for 22nd November.