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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Nov 1950

Vol. 123 No. 6

An Bille Gairm-Oideachais (Leasú), 1950—An Dara Léigheamh.

Molaim go léighfear an Bille don tarna h-uair. Sé is aidhm agus cuspóir don Bhille seo ná breis fáltais a sholáthar do na Coistí Gairm-Oideachais. Is amhlaidh atá an scéal faoi láthair go bhfuil cuid de na coistí sín i ndroch-chaoi cheal airgid. Is deímhin nach mbeídh ar a gcumas siúd a ndualgaísí do comhlíonadh mar ba chóir sa mbliain airgeadais 1951/52 muna gcuirtear breis gustail ar fáil dóibh.

Tá sé isteach is amach le fiche bliain ó shoin anois ó cuireadh bun suíocháin ar an Scéim Ghairm-Oideachais i dtosach. Tá an scéim sin go tréan ar a bhonnaibh um an dtaca so agus tá glactha go fonnmhar ag an bpobal leis i ngach aird den tír. Ní beag de chruthú air sin an t-éileamh ar ranganna do bheith ag dul i méid agus i ndéine in aghaidh an lae agus na gnéithe iomadúla atá tagtha go nádúrtha i ndiaidh a chéile ar an obair. Na scoileanna atá ar obair cheana féin nílid sáthach fairsing don tslua mhór dalta atá ag iarraidh brú isteach iontu agus tá géar-ghá le scoileanna nua sna límistéir nach bhfuair deis ar bith ar ghairm-oideachas do bheith acu go nuige seo.

Ach ar an dtaoibh eile dhe, is amhlaidh atá fáltas na gcoistí bunaithe ar an méid a thagann isteach as ráta a gearrtar do réir luachála an límistéir áitiúil. Mar is eol, is beag má tháinig athrú ar bith le fada anall ar an luacháil; ach i geás cumais cheannaigh an fháltais, dar ndóigh, níl ann ach tuairim is a leath i gcomórtas leis an gcumas a bhí ann roimh an gcogadh, i ngeall ar na costaisí uile do bheith arduithe, go háirithe na costaisí a bhaineann le páigh is le tuarastal.

Tá ocht gcinn is tríocha de Choistí Gairm-Oideachais ann ar fad. Tá aon cheann déag acu sin a bhfuil barr nó uas-phointe a bhfáltais bainte amach acu cheana féin. Ní bheidh deis ar bith ag na coistí sin leanúint leis an obair atá ar siúl acu fé láthair, gan trácht ar éinní sa mbreis a dhéanamh, muna bhfágha siad breis ghustail don bhliain 1951/52. Tá trí cinn is fiche eile de na Coistí, agus cé nach bhfuilid tagtha go dtí uas-phointe a bhfáltais go fóill, tá forás cuíosach mór beartaithe acu agus is deimhin nach mbeidh ar a gcumas dul ar aghaidh leis muna ndearbhaítear dóthain fáltais dóibh chun é sin a dhéanamh. Níl ach ceithre Coistí a bhféadfaí a rá ina dtaobh go ndealraíonn sé gur leor dá gcuid gnóthaí uile an fáltas reachtúil atá ag dul dóibh fé láthair. Tá sé dá thairiscint, mar sin, an t-uasphointe fáltais atá leagtha síos fé láthair d'ardú, i gcás ceithre gceann is tríocha de na Coistí, go dtí na figiúirí atá dá léiriú san Chéad Sceideal, sé sin le rá, do réir bhreise a théann ó phingin amháin go dtí cúig pingne do réir an cháis. Is amhlaidh socruíodh no figiúirí sin tar éis dianiniúchadh a dhéanamh ar an bhfóras is mó a mbeadh coinne leis ó gach Coiste ar leith. I gcolúin a 4 sa Chéad Sceideal léirítear an méid de ráta is dóigh a chuirfeadh ar chumas an Choiste a luaitear i gcolún a 2 forbairt iomlán do chur ar siúl.

Na suimeanna breise a bheidh ag teastáil i ngach ceann de na trí bliana airgeadais seo chugainn de bhreis ar an uas-fháltas atá ceadaithe fén dlí atá ann fé láthair, tá sé déanta amach nach rachaidh na suimeanna sin thar an méid seo leanas:—

1951-52:

£

Ó na rátaí áitiúia

4,746

Ó dheontas Stáit

6,438

Iomlán

£11,184

1952-53:

Ó na rátaí áitiúla

9,965

Ó dheontas Stáit

10,736

Iomlán

£20,701

1953-54:

Ó na rátaí áitiúla

10,016

Ó dheontas Stáit

11,170

Iomlán

£21,186

Sé an costas iomlán a bheadh ag gabháil leis na tairiscintí seo, dá gcuireadh na Coistí uile atá i gceist i bhfeidhm iad go dtí an phinginn deiridh, ná:—

Ó na rátaí áitiúla

124,200

Ó dheontas Stáit

166,512

Iomlán

£290,712

I geás daill na gCoistí Gairm-Oideachais do theacht i láthair chuig na cruinnithe, tá sé beartaithe cead a dheonadh chun allúntas pearsanta d'íoc le ball ar bith a mbíonn air turas míle nó os a chionn sin do thabhairt ag teacht chuig cruinniú dhó. Sé an socrú a bhí ann go dtí seo nach n-íocfaí costas dá leithéid le ball muna mbeadh air turas trí mhíle nó os a chionn sin do thabhairt ag teacht i láthair dó.

I would like to take the opportunity presented to me by this Bill to give the House a brief review of the development of vocational education in recent years. As Deputies are aware, our educational system, apart from university education, consists of three main branches—primary, secondary and vocational.

The primary system is now about 120 years in existence. The teachers are paid by the Department, which also contributes a large share of the cost of the building of national schools. The schools are under the control of the local managers, who appoint the teachers.

Secondary education is under private management, the schools are private institutions and are provided and maintained by the churches, religious orders, boards of governors and others. On the State falls the payment of capitation grants in respect of the pupils and the incremental salaries and the pensions of the teachers. The school authorities pay the basic portion of the salaries of the teachers and all building and maintenance costs.

Vocational education comprises two main sections—continuation education and technical education. The Vocational Education Act of 1930 defines continuation education as—

"education to continue and supplement education provided in elementary schools and includes general and practical training in preparation for employment in trades, manufactures, agriculture, commerce, and other industrial pursuits, and also general and practical training for the improvement of young persons in the early stages of such employment."

That is the definition set out in the Vocational Education Act

Technical education is defined as—

"education pertaining to trades, manufactures, commerce, and other industrial pursuits (including the occupations of girls and women connected with the household) and in subjects bearing thereon or relating thereto and includes education in science and art, music and physical training."

That is the definition of technical education under the 1930 Act.

Technical education in Ireland had its beginning in the Technical Instruction Act of 1889, which gave to local authorities the right to raise a rate not exceeding 1d. in the £ for technical instruction. Advantage was taken of this Act to develop schools in county boroughs and in certain urban districts, but progress was slow and very little was accomplished until the passing of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act of 1899. Special State grants (an endowment grant and attendance grants) were provided by this Act for technical instruction and local bodies were empowered to borrow money and to raise a rate of up to 2d. in the £ for agricultural and technical instruction, but generally not more than one-third of such rate as was taken up was allocated to technical instruction. A number of schools were built in the cities and larger urban centres. Such instruction as was provided in rural areas was conducted by itinerant teachers, and consisted mainly of woodwork, domestic economy and commerce subjects. Most of the work, both in towns and country, was done in night classes for about two or three evenings per week. The financial provision was altogether insufficient and there was no guarantee from year to year that the amount available from the local rate would be forthcoming.

It was not until the passing of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, that vocational education as we have it to-day really got under way. This Act was drawn up as a result of the report of a commission which was appointed in 1926 to inquire into the system of technical education—

"in relation to the existing and probable requirements of trade and industry".

Under the Act 38 vocational education committees were set up to provide continuation and technical education in their respective areas. Each committee is elected by the local rating authority and holds office for the same period as that authority. In practice, committees generally consist of about eight members of the local authority and about six representatives of employers, trade unions and local educational bodies. Each committee has a chief executive officer who acts as secretary and administrator for the scheme.

The committees derive their funds from local rates and State grants. The 1930 Act provided a maximum rate of 4d. for county and 6d. for urban areas. The maxima have been raised by subsequent enactments to 7d. and 9d respectively.

The formation of whole-time day courses in continuation education was one of the major changes introduced by the Act of 1930. Vocational education committees nowadays provide the following types of continuation courses:—A preparatory course for boys and girls, the foundation being practically the same in each case; a junior technical course specially designed for boys; a junior technical course specially designed for girls; a junior commercial course specially designed for boys; a junior commercial course for girls, and a junior rural course for boys.

These are whole-time day continuation courses, involving 25-28 hours' instruction per week, and approximately 50 per cent. of the time is devoted to practical subjects appropriate to the course, such as manual instruction, domestic economy or rural science. Attendance is voluntary. Religious instruction is given in each course by the local clergy. The normal age of admission is 14 years plus, but students who have already spent a year in the sixth standard in the primary school may be enrolled at 13 years plus.

The following extract from the normal rural school time-table indicates the nature of the course considered most suitable for boys and girls in rural vocational schools, on the basis of a week of 25 hours:—For boys, eight hours are devoted to manual instruction and drawing, five to rural science and surveying, four to practical mathematics, and eight hours are divided between religious instruction, Irish and other subjects, making a total of 25 hours. For girls, ten hours are devoted to domestic economy, three to household science and gardening, four to commercial arithmetic and business training, and eight hours are divided between religious instruction, Irish and other subjects, again making a total of 25 hours.

The rural science syllabus covers all the more important principles of science underlying farming, and the household science course for girls includes the basic knowledge required for an intelligent understanding of the work of a housewife.

Part V of the 1930 Act, which provides for the enforcement of compulsory education, introduced another important change. Power is here given to the Minister for Education to raise the school-leaving age to 16 in any area, or any part of an area, under the control of a vocational education committee. Where Part V has been put in operation, young persons between the ages of 14 and 16 years have the following alternatives:—

First, they may remain in whole-time attendance at a primary school; second, they may attend whole-time at a recognised secondary school, and, in the third place, they may attend a whole-time day continuation course. Failing this, they are obliged to attend a special compulsory day continuation course for one day of five hours each week for a session of 36 weeks. Thus, young people who do not attend a whole-time school must attend for at least 180 hours each session during two sessions at the prescribed compulsory course. The course is of the ordinary continuation type, manual instruction being included for the boys and domestic economy for the girls. No exceptions are allowed, and young persons must attend even if they are in employment. The school-leaving age has been raised in this way in the County Boroughs of Cork, Limerick and Waterford, and the numbers enrolled in the compulsory courses in these centres at present are approximately 900, 500 and 300, respectively.

A special sub-committee—Comhairle le Leas Óige—has been set up since 1942 by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee to organise suitable training courses for unemployed young persons between the ages of 14 and 16 years. Three training centres have already been set up, two on the north side and the other on the south side of the city. The three centres cater for approximately 500 boys. The boys attend two evenings a week for instruction in woodwork, metalwork or craftwork and a third evening for organised indoor games under the direction of trained youth leaders. Thirty-one boys' clubs and 25 girls' clubs formed by other organisations in the city have affiliated with the comhairle and secure for their own members the services of the instructors in practical subjects. In this manner, the comhairle influences the character and progress of over 3,000 young persons between the ages of 14 and 16 in Dublin. This scheme is still in the experimental stage and most of the cost is defrayed by a special annual grant from the State.

The main change in technical education introduced by the 1930 Act was by a broader definition to increase the scope of the work that might be done by the school. The ultimate form of evening technical courses was, however, more definitely influenced by a new system of technical school examinations introduced by the Department in 1936. This was the result of a report in 1934 of a special advisory committee consisting of chief executive officers and headmasters, of vocational education committees, of inspectors of the Department and of other educational and trade experts.

In the field of technical education, the vocational education committees have within recent years brought their work into close touch with industrial needs and have greatly extended the facilities for instruction in trades and factory operations. This instruction is now widely distributed over the country and is given not only in the technical schools, but also in the factories themselves. Amongst the trades and industries to which assistance has been and is being thus given are boot factories, aluminium factory, flour milling, shirt factories, electrical engineering, fishery industry, toy making, glove making, pottery factory, tanning industry and ready-made clothing factories.

There are two types of tests for trades—the junior trade test, which is of a standard equivalent to the degree of skill expected of an apprentice in the middle of his apprenticeship; the senior trade test calls for the standard of skill which would normally be expected to be reached by an apprentice at the end of his apprenticeship. In each case, there is a written paper on the knowledge of trade principles and processes. These trade tests proved so popular that in 1944 the Department introduced an elementary practical test in woodwork and in metalwork for boys who had completed a two years' junior technical course in the day schools.

Technological certificates are awarded in three stages, as the result of written tests—elementary, intermediate and advanced—denoting in the final stage the standard of technical knowledge suited to the needs of work managers, engineers, designers and other factory executives.

In domestic economy, provision is made for two practical tests in cookery, two in needlework, and one in laundry and household management. Written tests are also arranged in cookery, laundry and household management. Girls who complete a two years' junior technical course also enter for these tests in large numbers and are generally successful.

Examinations in commerce are divided into three groups: Group I, dealing with clerical occupations; Group II, dealing with retail distributive trades; and Group III dealing with languages. Tests of an elementary, intermediate and advanced stage are set in each subject.

Classes in domestic economy and in woodwork are common to all schemes. Classes in metalwork and commerce are established mainly in the larger urban centres. In these centres there are also classes for the building, the mechanical, the motor and the electrical engineering trades. In the county boroughs, still more specialised courses are formed to meet the needs of professional bodies such as the Institute of Architects, the City and Guilds of London, the Institute of Mechanical Engineering, the Chartered Accountants and the Institute of Insurance. In rural areas, provision is made for sessional and short intensive courses in woodwork and in domestic economy in centres where no permanent vocational school yet exists.

Up to 1930 there were few direct contacts between industry and the technical school, and the attendance of a young worker at technical classes was generally a matter of individual ambition and personal choice. Since then, and particularly since the introduction in 1936 of the new scheme of technical school examinations, there has been a growing series of contacts and many useful schemes of training have been developed by vocational schools working in association with particular industries or occupations.

Some of these schemes were temporary and intensive to meet the needs of new industries which required large numbers of operatives at short notice. Training schemes of this type were devised for industries such as aluminium, artificial silk, bootmaking, button-making, cotton, electrical fittings, fishing, flax-spinning, laundry work, glove-making, pottery, readymade clothing, sugar beet, tanning, wire products and woollen manufactures. Instruction was generally in the daytime; but occasionally evening classes had to be formed to fit in with the local school time-table or the availability of the technical trade expert.

Permanent schemes for the systematic training of apprentices are in operation mainly in the county boroughs. They fall into two categories:—

(a) Permanent schemes regulated by statutory committees set up under the Apprenticeship Act, 1931; and

(b) Permanent schemes regulated by committees voluntarily set up by representatives of particular trades.

At present, schemes under the Apprenticeship Act are confined to the furniture-making, hairdressing, painting and decorating trades and are held in the vocational schools in the county boroughs of Dublin and Cork only.

The more successful schemes are those which have been organised voluntarily. These cover a wide range of trades such as bakery and confectionery, bootmaking, bricklaying, carpentry and joinery, electrical installation, farriery, marine engineering, mercantile marine, painting and decorating, plastering, plumbing, printing, readymade clothing, shirtmaking, tailoring, watchmaking, and the trades of Air Force mechanic, chef, cinema operator, hotel cooks (women) and garage mechanic. Whilst mainly concentrated in Dublin and Cork, such courses are also held in larger urban centres, e.g., Drogheda, Dundalk and Galway, and the course for garage mechanics can be held in any vocational school which has an engineering room with adequate equipment.

In these schemes, the old tradition of evening class instruction has been broken, and the young workers attend the school during working hours, either at suitable periods during the week or for a few months at a time. A brief account of the appropriate schemes of the Society of Irish Motor Traders, the Electricity Supply Board and of Córas Iompair Éireann may be of interest to Deputies.

The Society of Irish Motor Traders' scheme for garage mechanics prescribes that boys must have attended regularly a day junior technical course, and have passed the Manual Training Group Certificate of the Department's day examinations. Candidates who pass this examination are entitled, on payment of a registration fee of 2/-, to have their names entered in the society's register, i.e., in the Register of the Irish Motor Traders.

On securing employment in the motor trade the apprentice enters on a course of apprenticeship for five years. He must attend regularly throughout his apprenticeship at a suitable course of instruction at a technical school, should such a course be available to him. He must present himself for the junior stage of the Department's examination for the Group Trades' Certificate in Motor-Car Engineering at the end of his second year and for the senior stage of the Department's examination for the Group Trades' Certificate in Motor-Car Engineering at the end of his fourth year.

As a result of the Department's examinations held in 1950, 368 candidates were entitled to registration in the society's register of candidates, as compared with 75 in 1945 when the scheme was started, and the following figures give some idea of the growth of this scheme:—

NUMBER OF CANDIDATES FOR DEPARTMENT'S MOTOR-CAR ENGINEERING EXAMINATIONS

Year

Junior Stage

Senior Stage

1945

75

14

1950

342

189

For the Electricity Supply Board scheme recruitment of apprentices is made as a result of local interviews held by the board's district engineers. These interviews are held generally throughout the country and are not confined to large centres of population. Generally boys nominated must have completed the Junior Day Technical Course, be between 15 and 18 years of age and have entered for the Department's Manual Group Certificate examination.

During the apprenticeship, which extends over a period of five years, the board, in conjunction with the Department, arranges for a course of full-time day training which is carried out with the assistance of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. The course covers a period of four years and each group of apprentices is released from ordinary employment for a period of three months each year to attend the course. At the end of the second and fourth sessions apprentices must sit for the Junior and Senior Trade Certificate examinations respectively.

There are at present 183 apprentices in training under the Electricity Supply Board scheme.

Under the Córas Iompair Éireann scheme apprentices are recruited also by interview conducted by a board consisting of two representatives of Córas Iompair Éireann and one each of the Department of Education and the trade unions. Candidates must have passed the Primary School Certificate or have attended for one session at a day junior technical school, and they must be between 16 and 17½ years of age.

The period of apprenticeship is five years. For the first two years apprentices must attend courses of training for one full day and two nights per week. After two years the best of the apprentices, as decided by the results of the Department's examinations, may be required to pursue a higher technological course necessitating attendance for two full days and two nights at a technical school. The other apprentices continue to attend the technical school for one full day and two nights per week pursuing the ordinary trade course.

The following figures illustrate the growth of the scheme since its inception in 1945 up to 1949-50:—

Session

Number of Apprentices

1945-46

84

1946-47

169

1947-48

206

1948-49

218

1949-50

221

TOTAL

898

Trade courses in farriery and smithwork and in rural building for the better training of tradesmen and apprentices of these trades who live in rural areas have been conducted in recent years by some vocational education committees in conjunction with the Department. The sponsoring committee provides the necessary accommodation, instruction and materials and the Department pays, by way of scholarships, the maintenance costs of the students during the courses.

There is a keen demand for these courses, but it is not possible at present, mainly owing to lack of suitable teachers, to meet all needs. In 1950 four courses were held in farriery and smithwork at Kilkenny, Ballinasloe, Roscommon, Skibbereen, respectively, and two in rural building construction at Tralee and Ballyhaunis. In 1951 it is proposed to hold four farriery and four rural building construction courses.

Twelve apprentices attend each course which, in the case of farriery and smithwork, is of six weeks' duration and in the case of rural building eight weeks. Maintenance scholarships are paid by the Department.

Apart from instruction in manual work and domestic economy for adults which has always been the main feature of evening classes conducted by vocational educational committees there are organised annually by the Royal Dublin Society a number of lectures on such subjects as agriculture, science, art, or archaeology, and there are also the Barrington Lectures on economic topics given by university professors and others.

Adult education is, however, forcing its attention more and more on vocational education committees and the main problem is at present being investigated by a sub-committee of chief executive officers and inspectors of the Department. An important development in this direction is the university extension courses in social science and allied subjects organised by the university colleges of Cork and Dublin in conjunction with vocational education committees. The courses although open to all comers, were originally provided in Cork for employers, trade unionists and young workers. They have been since extended to smaller towns and are beginning to penetrate to rural areas. Courses have been organised to date in the cities of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford and in the towns of Clonmel, Mallow, Macroom, Killarney, Fermoy, Dungarvan, Carlow, Mullingar, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Kilkenny, Wexford, and Newcastle West.

Another promising development in adult education is the discussion groups, which were first introduced to help farmers, farm workers and other adults in rural districts to overcome their natural reluctance to participate in anything savouring of formal class instruction or schooling. At the outset the rural science teacher initiates a discussion upon some formal topic of vital interest to the farming community, and invites questions, thereby stimulating the free exchange of views among the members of the group. I understand that it was from one of these groups that the movement now known as Macra na Feirme sprang.

A scheme of choral classes was organised in County Cork during the session 1948-49, for which purpose the committee appointed as special organiser a permanent whole-time teacher of Irish and choral singing in its employment. A short time previously this teacher had attended courses in the subject and studied the organisation of such classes in and around Glasgow. Classes were established at about 11 selected centres during the first session and at 24 centres during 1949-50. Part-time teachers, most of whom were trained national teachers, were appointed to conduct the classes and special summer courses for the teachers so employed were held in 1949 and 1950.

The County Waterford and County Tipperary (S.R.) Vocational Education Committees have requested the loan of the services of the County Cork Committee's organiser in order to inaugurate similar schemes in their areas and proposals have been received by the Department for the conduct of choral singing classes in each of these two counties.

I have referred already to courses in farriery and rural building conducted by vocational education committees, but other valuable rural courses are conducted from time to time by the committees. For example, with the co-operation of the nuns at Drishane Convent, courses in rural domestic economy have been conducted by County Cork Vocational Education Committee in each of the years 1948, 1949 and 1950 for 16 students between 18 and 30 years selected from the committee's classes. Each student received a scholarship of £10 from the vocational education committee and was given an intensive training in household management, homecrafts, poultry-keeping and dairying. Under the auspices of the County Westmeath Vocational Education Committee a similar course for 19 students drawn from the areas of six adjoining committees was conducted at the Convent of Mercy, Moate, last summer. The committees were those of Counties Dublin, Meath, Westmeath, Longford, Louth and Monaghan. Students were awarded scholarships to the value of £20 per head by their respective committees.

A course in wood and concrete work and in rural science for local young farmers was conducted at Ballymote by the County Sligo Committee in 1949-50 for 12 students, who were awarded scholarships of £5 each. This course consisted of six hours' practical instruction on two days per week from November to March.

With the co-operation of the county committee of agriculture, a course for 16 students of the committee's classes was held in Mallow in each of the years 1948, 1949 and 1950 by County Cork Committee. Intensive training was given in agricultural science, horticultural science, repair and maintenance of agricultural machinery, woodwork and rural building construction. The students, who were between 18 and 30 years of age, received a scholarship of £10 each to enable them attend the course.

About 600 scholarships of the average value of about £12 each are awarded annually by vocational education committees to enable selected students to attend summer courses in the Irish language at Irish colleges and other centres. Scholarships are also awarded occasionally by vocational education committees to enable successful students to attend courses in domestic science, institutional management or household management at Coláiste Muire, Dublin, and courses in the National College of Art.

All this recent development in continuation and technical education meant the provision of a regular and increasing supply of trained teachers. For this purpose, special long courses are conducted regularly by the Department for the training of manual instructors in woodwork and in metal-work while domestic science teachers are trained in the colleges of Coláiste Muire, Dublin, and St. Catherine's, Sion Hill, Blackrock. Teachers of commerce, general science, engineering and rural science are, in the main, university graduates. Special long courses have also been held to train teachers and organisers for promoting the Irish language under vocational education schemes. The latter courses have recently been replaced by short, intensive summer courses in the Irish language and teaching methods, mainly for university graduates or for students in their final university year, so as to familiarise them with the kind of activities required of Irish teachers in vocational education schemes.

Refresher courses are held from time to time, at the suggestion of the inspectors, so as better to equip teachers for their work. Such courses are usually in domestic science, woodwork and drawing, with special emphasis on building construction, craftwork, commerce subjects and metalwork. Many of these courses have been, in recent years, directed towards enabling vocational education teachers to cater for the special needs of rural students.

For example, rural building construction courses for woodwork teachers were conducted by the Department at Bush, County Louth, in 1948 and 1949 and at Ballina, County Mayo, in 1950, with the co-operation of the local vocational education committees. A course in farm machinery was conducted in Cork in 1949 with the assistance of the Cork City Vocational Education Committee. A course in Irish drama was conducted by the Department in 1949, in Galway, with the co-operation of the committee of Galway City, to enable teachers of Irish to promote the growth of drama in Gaeltacht areas.

Courses in crafts were conducted by the County Galway committee in 1950, and by the City of Waterford committee in 1949 and 1950, for teachers of art subjects, so as to enable them to give instruction in such traditional crafts as basket-making, rushwork, spinning, weaving and leatherwork.

Special provision was made in the Vocational Education Act, 1930, to enable vocational education committees to undertake the heavy capital expenditure necessitated by the provision and equipment of suitable schools without placing too great a burden on the ordinary income of each committee. Accordingly, since 1930, apart from extensions to existing schools, about 120 new schools of an attractive type and specially designed for vocational education classes have been provided.

Apart from the county boroughs, the general aim of each committee is to provide a permanent vocational education school at each large centre of population in its area and a small, one-room or two-room school in suitable rural districts. By this means and by the aid of itinerant classes in outlying districts, committees hope to make available the benefits of vocational training to most parts of their areas and so reach their optimum development. At first these benefits were not fully appreciated in some districts and progress was slow, but there is no doubt as to the increasing demand in recent years from all parts of the country for this service. Owing to the present high costs and the prior claims of housing and hospitalisation schemes on building labour and materials, it has been necessary to regulate the building of further schools by vocational education committees on a priority basis. This does not appear to have unduly hampered committees, however, as the rate of progress in such undertakings is conditioned by the financial position of each committee, the supply of teachers available, the obtaining of a suitable site and the drawing up of plans and specifications. It is now possible for nearly all committees to envisage what further expenditure would be needed in order to attain their ultimate development and, presuming that no untoward additional expenditure has to be incurred, it is considered that the additional rating provision proposed in this Bill for each committee should enable it to fulfil that aim.

The main purpose of the Bill is to provide the necessary funds for vocational education committees to enable them to extend and maintain their schemes to meet local demands for vocational education services. In the case of 11 committees the need for additional income is urgent because these committees have already reached the maximum income allowed them by existing legislation. Twenty-three other committees have considerable further development pending and cannot undertake it on present resources. Only in the case of four committees does the present statutory income appear sufficient, but even that is subject to the condition that no expenditure of an exceptional nature arises.

It is accordingly proposed to depart from the type of rating schedule adopted hitherto in connection with the Vocational Education Acts, that is, having the same over-all maximum rate per £ for all county committees and another maximum rate for all county boroughs and scheduled urban district committees. The new schedule provides only such maximum poundage as is considered necessary for each committee. Accordingly ten committees are being allowed to proceed to 1d. above their existing maxima, 12 committees to 2d. extra, five to 3d. extra, three others to 4d. extra and finally four others to 5d. extra. The additional cost of these provisions, which, it is anticipated, will fall due in the next five financial years, is not more than about £11,000 in 1951-52, a further sum of £20,000 in 1952-53, and a further £21,000 in 1953-54. The ultimate additional cost, if availed of to the fullest extent by all committees, is estimated at £291,000, being £124,000 from the rates and £167,000 from State grants.

The Act of 1930 provided for an annual increase of ½d. for county borough and urban districts and of 1/4d. for counties, and subsequent amendments provided for 1/2d. in all cases. This rate of progression would be altogether insufficient now in the case of some committees unless certain developments which are considered urgent were to be postponed for a number of years. Accordingly, while the Minister will continue to exercise his powers to restrict the amount of local contribution which a committee may demand in any year to such sum as may be reasonably necessary for the committee's needs, the Bill gives all committees the power to proceed in future by a rate of progression up to 1d. per annum.

In addition, it was shown recently in the case of one or two committees that schools that were urgently required could not be undertaken for several years unless a rate of 2d. could be made available at once when the schools were completed. To meet this situation it is proposed to give powers to the Minister to sanction a higher rate than 1d. but not more than 2d. in a particular year if he is satisfied that the special circumstances of the committee warrant it. It will be subject to the conditions that (i) the committee submits a copy of its financial scheme for that year to the local rating authority; (ii) the rating authority passes a resolution approving of the scheme, and (iii) the Minister is satisfied that the committee requires more than 1d. that year.

Section 2 of the Bill re-enacts, with modifications, paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Act of 1930 which are being repealed and the section substitutes the new schedule for previous schedules. Committees prepare and submit to the Minister their annual financial schemes in the month of November each year. Section 2 is, therefore, being brought into force as from the 1st November, 1950, so that if committees, especially those on their maxima, should, in anticipation of the passing of this Bill, make provision this month for additional rate next year, effect can be given thereto.

Section 3 of the Bill provides for the condition already mentioned that, where a committee wishes to take up more than a 1d. rate, it must submit a copy of its scheme to the local rating authority.

Section 4 of the Bill is an extension of the powers given to the Minister in Section 46 of the 1930 Act. In that section the Minister is empowered to give a certificate to each committee prescribing the amounts they are to demand from the rating authority, which amount is limited both as to minimum and to maximum. As regards the minimum all committees have long ago passed the minimum prescribed in Section 46.

The maximum to be certified for any year is either the amount proposed by the committee for that year, if approved by the Minister, or the amount certified for the previous year, whichever is the greater.

Previous schedules specified the maximum amount of poundage which a committee could take up in any financial year. The new schedule does not follow this pattern, except for the year 1951-52, but specifies the all-over maximum rate which will be allowed to each committee. The Minister, therefore, is being given power in Section 4 to limit the amount of rate to a maximum of 1d. in any year, except where a committee has not yet reached its existing maximum, or where the special conditions already mentioned are fulfilled. In the former case a committee may proceed to its existing maximum without complying with the special conditions and in the latter case the amount of additional rate is limited to a maximum of 2d.

The latter provision was necessary because, when the financial position of certain committees was examined, it was found that an additional amount of 1d. per annum would be insufficient to enable a committee to equip and staff a new school when built, and, therefore, the school would have to remain partly unused for one year or two.

Section 5 of the Bill merely brings local vocational education legislation into line with local government legislation in respect of the allowances to be paid to members of vocational committees for attending meetings. The previous limit of mileage which could entitle a member to subsistance allowance was three miles and this is now being reduced to one mile, again to bring it into line with local government legislation.

Tá fhios againn go raibh roinnt de na Coistí agus fiú amháin trí bliana ó shoin gur ar éigin a bhí siad i ndon leanúint leis an obair. B'éigean dúinn Billí mar atá i gceist anois a thabhairt isteach ní amháin i 1944 ach arís i 1947. Ó shoin i leith tá na costaisí méadaithe go mór; cur i gcás—bhí ardú tuarastail ag dul do na múinteóirí gairm-oideachais. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil siad sásta fós agus b'fhéidir go mbeifí ag iarraidh a thuilleadh. Tá costaisí eile ag dul i méid freisin Rinne an tAire tagairt do rud amháin sa bhfocal deireannach adúirt sé; Dúirt sé go raibh coiste ann a raibh scoil leath-thógtha acu— is dócha gur scoil bheag a bhí i gceist —agus mar gheall ar nach raibh ach pinginn d'ardú ar na rátaí i gceist nach bhféadfadh siad an scoil a chríochnú. Níl ansin ach sampla beag de na deachrachtaí a tháinig roimh na coistí, cé go bhfuil siad ag fáil tuairim is leath an airgid a theastaíonn uathu do thógail na dteach scoile ón gciste náisiúnta. Tá costaisí eile ag meadú; cuír i gcás admhad le haghaidh na ranganna adhmadóireachta. Tá na costaisí glántóireachta agus téite méadaithe go mór freisin.

Níl aon amhras ann go bhfuil athrú ar fad ar an scéal i gcomparáid leis an am ar cuireadh an príomh-Acht i bhfeidhm timpeall fiche bliain ó shoin. Tá fhios againn go léir nach bhfuil san airgead mar atá sé anois ach leath an luacha a bhí ann fiú amháin deich mbliana ó shoin. Nuair a cuireadh an tAcht i bhfeidhm ar dtús sé an rud a bhí i gceist ná go rachadh na rátaí suas leath-phinginn sna contae-bhuirgí agus feoirling in aghaidh na bliana sna contaethe. Tá sé soiléir fiú amháin le hárdú pinginne sa bpunt nach féidir mórán a dhéanamh go mór mhór ins na ceantracha bochta. Cuir i gcás Co. Liathdroma; is contae é sin atá chomh bocht sin ó thaobh luachála de gur ar éigean a d'fhéadfaí scéim a choinneáil beo ar chor ar bith ann agus bheadh suim airgid ag teastáil le dul i gcabhair ar an gcoiste ansin. Cuir i gcás bailte mar Tráigh Lí. Ní hé go bhfuil scéim an-mhór acu ansin ach tá sé soiléir go rachadh sé an-righin ar bhaile mar sin nach bhfuil thar 10,000 duine ina gcónaí ann mórán eile a dhéanamh le forás a chur ar na scéimeanna, dá mbeadh orthu cur leis na scoileanna nó dá dtagadh aon ardú mór ar na costaisí reatdha.

Bhí saghas tuairime agam go dtiocfadh an t-am go gcaithfheadh an Stát iarracht a dhéanamh ar chuid de na scéimeanna beaga a chur isteach le scéimeanna eile sa gcomharsanacht; mar shampla Tráigh Lí a chur isteach le Contae Chiarraighe agus Co. Liathdroma a chur isteach le Co. Shligigh. Ní raibh ansin ach tuairim gur cheart an cheist a iniúchadh. Tá sé soiléir go gcaithfidh an tOireachtas i gceann trí bliana nó mar sin teacht arís leis an scéal a leigheas.

Dheineas iarracht ar mhuintir Thráigh Lí a thabhairt isteach leis an chontae agus Sligeach a thabhairt isteach leis an chontae ach ní raibh siad sásta.

Is fearr leo a bheith neamhspleách.

Is fearr, ach bheadh scéim níos fearr ann dá mbeadh siad i dteannta a chéile.

Maidir leis na méadaithe seo, ní dóigh liom go ndéanfaidh na coistí chomh mhaith as an Rialtas is a rinne go dtí seo. Tá timpeall £100,000 ag teacht ó na rátaí agus £138,000 ón Stáit agus sna trí bliana seo chugainn rachaidh an £100,000 ó na rátaí suas go dtí £124,000 agus rachaidh an £138,000 ón deontas suas go dtí £166,000, sé sin le rá go mbeidh £24,000 breise ag teacht ó na rátaí agus ní bheidh ach £28,000—sin £4,000 níos mó—ag teacht ó chiste an Stáit. Is dóigh liomsa go bhfuil cás maith ag na ceantracha bochta, ní amháin ag Liathdrom ach ag Tir Chonaill, Conamara agus aon áit eile ina bhfuil limistéirí móra agus a lán gabháltaisí nach bhfuil ach luacháil an-bheag orthu.

Tá deacrachtaí eile sa scéal mar gheall air go bhfuil sé deacair—is dócha mar a thárlaíos faoi oideachas i gcoitinne—agus níos deacra chuile bhliain, múinteóirí a fháil a rachfas ins na ceantracha iargúlta. Ní amháin go bhfuil sé níos deacra stróinséirí a fháil rachfas isteach ins na ceantracha sin le múineadh agus dul ina gcónaí iontu ar feadh a saoil, ach tá na daoine a tógadh ins na háiteacha sin ag imeacht astu. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil leigheas ar an scéal ach sin mar atá. Mar sin is dóigh liom go bhfuil cás fé leith ag na ceantracha sin mar go gcaithimid gach uile iarracht a dhéanamh na daoine a choinneáil iontú. Má tá gairm-scoil le fáil agus má cheapann na daoine go bhfuil siad ag fáil buntáistí aisti len a mbeatha féin a fheabhsú agus caighdeán a saoil a ardú agus rudaí a chur ar fáil dóibh fhéin tríd an oiliúint agus an oideachas a gheibheann siad sa scoil sin is mór an gar é, taobh amuigh den smaoineamh go mbeidh siad oilte do na fostaitheoirí. Is rud atá ag dul i gcoinne na gcúrsaí nach gcríochnaítear iad. Ní leanann na daoine iad ar feadh dhá bhlian nó trí chun na cúrsaí a chríochnú mar nuair atá monarcha nua sa gcomharsanacht sciobann an fostaitheoir leis na daoine óga fiú amháin sul a mbíonn an gnáth-chúrsa críochnaithe acu.

I think rural Deputies will have their own opinions about the increased rating facilities which the Bill provides for the continuance and improvement of vocational and technical education. I take it that at some stage we will be given the particulars to which the Minister referred in connection with the First Schedule. I gather that the Minister is not in a position at present to give us these particulars.

What particulars is the Deputy speaking of?

The First Schedule speaks of "Particulars to be inserted in the Vocational Education Act, 1930". I understood from the Minister's statement in Irish that the particulars were being made out for this Schedule, but I probably misunderstood him.

The Deputy will find that the Schedule speaks for itself. In column 4 it gives the new maximum rate.

Column 3 gives the rate to which the local authorities can go without getting any special permission.

The existing rate?

The existing rate is lifted.

The Minister has given particulars of a number of committees in respect of which an additional rate of more than 1d. will be necessary. I think he said that 4d. was the maximum.

If the Deputy will look at item 18 in the First Schedule he will see that County Galway Vocational Committee can now go to a maximum of 11d. Up to the present, they could only go to 7d. He will find also that the Longford committee—item 25—can go to 12d. It is one of the committees which has had its maximum raised by 5d.

I think I understand the Schedule fairly well. The third column of the Schedule represents the maximum rating in aid of vocational education during the coming financial year. I have not the figures for the present rating. As I have said, it is a matter for the Deputies who represent the rural constituencies. My own constituency seems to get off fairly reasonably, but those Deputies can judge for themselves whether they think the provisions are such that they can recommend them.

The City of Cork, I think, was always interested particularly in vocational education. Not alone were the institutions there of very high quality, but we got a large number of the instructors who entered the service through the country from the Cork schools. In view of the keen interest which the citizens of the County and City of Cork have always had in vocational education and in education generally, I am sure they will not cavil at paying the special rate.

I take it that, as far as Section 4 is concerned, it is really a change only in procedure. The principle, as far as I can see, is the same as in the principal Act under which the vocational education committee, under Section 46, sends on its scheme to the Minister. He then authorises them, through a certificate, to make a demand for such an amount as he may consider proper. In view of the change of circumstances to which the Minister has referred, it has apparently been found necessary to make certain changes in the first sub-section of Section 46 of the 1930 Act, but the principle is really the same.

It is a change to introduce greater elasticity.

I do not think there is anything much in that. I have referred to the fact that, I think, that, as far as the provision for the next three years as given by the Minister is concerned, the committees do not seem to be doing quite as well, proportionate to the amount of State aid, as they are doing now if we call the grants from the State for the present year the basic grants. I think the percentage decrease is the same during the coming years. That may be attributable to the circumstances of the case. I should have thought that, owing to the special difficulties of certain areas, it would be necessary to make provision for additional State aid in the counties and areas that I have referred to, and perhaps in other small urban areas. Therefore, I think that on this side of the House it is our duty to recommend to the Minister that he ought not to allow the percentage contribution from the State towards the general cost of the services to decline. In view of increasing costs, and the responsibility of the committees, I think there is a very strong case for rather increasing the State contribution if special aid is to be given to what may be called depressed areas or to small rural schemes. One would imagine that the percentage of State aid, as expressed in relation to the total expenditure, ought to be at the very least static, if not an increasing amount.

There is no change.

I take it that is correct, that there is not any intention to cut down in any way.

There is no change.

I suggest that since this is a recurring matter—it has come before the House on two or three occasions already and is likely to come before it again some time in the future —it would be a pity if committees were held up in proceeding with necessary development, or if the growing trend of cost were to be such a burden upon them that normal improvements, which would otherwise have been made, had to be postponed or dropped altogether.

There is no doubt, I think, but that vocational education schemes are calculated to do valuable work in the rural areas. A great deal has been done in the way of providing facilities in these areas. There are, of course, difficulties in the way such as that the population in the rural areas tends to decrease and the fact that in the good centres you have secondary schools which very often take the cream of the young people from the primary schools. In the urban areas, I think, as well as in the rural vocational schools proper —the one and two-room schools to which the Minister referred—you will find that in a place like Tipperary a great many pupils come from the rural areas round about. You will find, perhaps, that as high as 50 per cent. of the students really come from the rural areas. Therefore, it is not only in the small rural vocational schools that work is being done for the benefit of the rural areas, but it is also being done in the town schools. Since a considerable proportion of their students come from the rural areas, I think the town schools can claim that they are also doing work for the rural community.

The agricultural committee of inquiry which reported some years ago stated that the most valuable reform and the best thing that could be done for the development of Irish agriculture and its future prosperity would be to raise the educational level of the rural community as much as we can. I take it that they meant in that connection that, not alone should we try to raise the general educational standard but, so far as possible, we should provide continuation or other education which would enable our farmers, their families and workers and all who live in the rural areas to apply the results of modern science and research to our main industry.

The difficulty, I think, with these small schools is that, if you examine the cost per pupil, it seems unreasonably high. But, apart from the congested areas proper and perhaps County Monaghan, I do not think we can say that we have very concentrated areas of population. Our rural population is rather scattered. We have the village with a large number of homesteads. I think it is only in the West of Ireland and perhaps a few other areas that that is a feature. The scattered farms are more the normal thing and it is obvious that the number of people you can draw upon is limited. When you start a vocational school, therefore, even in a comparatively prosperous farming area, the numbers, having regard to the other facilities which will be available in the way of secondary education, will be rather limited.

If you are to get the best value out of the scheme and provide full employment for your teachers, it seems to me that there is a very strong case for trying to bring in a system at least of compulsory part-time education in those areas. It is only by assuring the teachers in the particular school of the continued attendance of a sufficient number of pupils that we can say we are going to get the best results. It would also, I think, make the people take a more realistic attitude towards those facilities which have been made available for them. I do not think that, in some cases, they fully appreciate them and if the Minister would at least, as an experiment, try out making education compulsory even for a part of the year—during the busy farming periods we might not be able to get the attendance—I think that the future would be very hopeful because, unfortunately, the rural population tends to decline. The attraction of the town is very great indeed.

The Marshall Aid administration recently issued a publication in which they referred to the state of our agricultural advisory services. They said they had not time to consider the vocational education schemes, but they recognised that good work was being done in these schools for the rural population and for the benefit of agriculture. While this is more pertinent, perhaps, to a discussion on agricultural education, since the Department of Education has schools where we have highly-trained rural science teachers, engineering teachers and teachers of building construction, I presume that it will come within the Minister's province if he thinks that the observations of the committee are worthy of being considered for putting into force, that the teaching of agricultural economics should as far as possible be improved. They refer in particular to marketing and farm management. It may not be easy to get these into the curriculum of the ordinary schools, but I daresay a certain amount can be done provided some of the best of the inspectors and teachers who are familiar with rural conditions can be enabled to get time off to see how best the curricula may be brought into consonance with modern ideas.

They also referred to agricultural engineering, about which a certain amount has been done and is being done. There is often a complaint that farmers do not give proper care to their machines. Obviously, the care and repair of machines is of great importance to the rural community at present. I always had a belief that, since it is difficult to bring the farmers into the schools, sometimes the teachers will have to go out to the farmer and give demonstrations. In this particular matter of agricultural machinery, I am quite sure the Minister will do everything that is possible to enable the vocational schools to contribute to farmers having an up-to-date knowledge of the care and repair of these costly machines.

Reference was also made by this committee to the question of homemaking for farm women. I am not quite clear what they mean by that. If they are referring to preparatory courses enabling girls brought up on the land to be prepared for marriage, a certain amount is being done, though perhaps not sufficient. I fear that the trend is very much against marriage, unfortunately, and that the ordinary girl brought up in a rural area is not attracted to settling down on a small farm. As is the case with the boys, she sees that there are better remuneration and more attractive conditions in employment in the towns, in factories, shops and so on. Therefore, it is a very great problem and, undoubtedly, if anything more can be done to help the housewives and the girls in the farmhouses of the country it would be a great matter. But I think that the problem of getting domestic assistance for these women is very serious. If the idea of the experts is that more should be done to enable farm women to make preserves for themselves and to learn how salads could be utilised on the cookery side or to do pieces of craft work or embroidery, I am afraid we would be met with the reply that the ordinary farmer's wife or daughter has not enough time. Since there is practically no domestic aid available, they find their time fully occupied with preparing meals and keeping house and, occasionally, we can be certain, they are required to give a hand outside in looking after the stock. Therefore, I do not know that there is very much time or opportunity. Certainly, I know that what the Irish Countrywomen's Association seems to be aiming at would be deserving of consideration.

I should like, in connection with teachers, to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied that the arrangements in operation for securing teachers of practical subjects are sufficient to attract potential teachers. It seems to me that there is great competition, not alone with the vocational schools, but with other types of schools, from industry, and in the particular case of rural science from the Department of Agriculture for agricultural science graduates or other technicians. It is important that the House should encourage the Minister to do everything that is possible where we have good technical teachers in our schools —men who are well qualified and who are in contact with industry—to help them and to secure others as well, where necessary.

I think I can legitimately express a grievance that the Minister has not been able to indicate—he may not consider this the appropriate time— whether he has any plans in view for the introduction of compulsory education after the age of 14. Furthermore, I should like to ask whether he can give, when he is concluding, information with regard to the rate of progress in the building of schools and their equipment in Dublin. In view of the growth of the population here and the intensification of industrial activity, it seems to me to be quite clear that even with a much larger number of regional schools—the number I was familiar with was five, but I think that number may have been increased since the Minister came into office—only a fraction of the population seeking entrance into the schools can be provided for.

The Minister has also referred to the question of apprenticeship. It is satisfactory that the apprenticeship classes are progressing so well, particularly those in connection with motor engineering and the Electricity Supply Board, under the auspices of the bigger organisations. From the Labour side there has always been a good deal of interest in vocational education. Labour members of vocational education committees, particularly in the City of Dublin—I think generally in the larger areas—have been interested in doing what they could to provide suitable continuation and technical education for young artisans. It is fortunate or unfortunate that the whole question of apprenticeship is a matter, in the first instance, for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. However, I think that, with the co-operation of the labour organisations on the one hand and the employers on the other hand, it ought to be possible to extend the schemes to cover apprenticeship to all trades so that the young people of the city would have an opportunity of entering into trained occupations. We are providing secondary education. It is rather costly to keep students at school until they complete their secondary course but that is necessary if they are to go for the professions, teaching, medicine, engineering and so forth. In the future I think that industry will be more important than it has ever been. It is obvious that tremendous strides are being made and, from the national point of view as well as from the point of view of the welfare and advancement of those who will be spending their lives in industry, I think we should do everything possible to encourage the apprenticeship schemes. The number of committees has remained the same for a great many years. Perhaps, with the conditions that exist at present there is an opportunity for getting that co-operation in the other trades which would enable further apprenticeship classes to be set up.

As well as the regional schools it was always part of the programme of the Dublin Vocational Education Committee, I think, that the main technical schools, such as Bolton Street and Kevin Street, should be elevated as soon as conditions permitted to the rank of technical colleges or technological institutes, in the proper sense of the term. The Minister referred specifically to music and science in his opening statement. In the absence of my colleague, Deputy McCann, I feel he would have said, if he were here, that there have been complaints that the Dublin School of Music, under the vocational education authority, is not worthy of the city and that efforts ought to be made to provide a better building. In saying that, I fully recognise that everything cannot be done at once. Nevertheless, these things have a habit, if I may put it that way, of being shelved. The School of Music has certainly given great value to the young people of Dublin who could not otherwise secure musical training.

The Kevin Street building is unsatisfactory. You have the position at present that students are going from the university—pre-medical students and so on—for practical work to Kevin Street to get as good a practical foundation as possible. That means that, as the laboratory accommodation is very restricted, it must be nearly impossible to cater, not alone for the number of students who come from the universities but for the students who are doing pharmacy, for instance, and who intend to get diplomas or certificates in such occupations. I ask the Minister to let us know whether there are any plans in contemplation for the improvement of the Kevin Street building or for the erection of a new technological institute.

Kevin Street deals with science proper and applied science. It is, obviously of great importance to this city which now has a population of 500,000 that it should have a technological institute capable of catering for all the demands that are being made and capable of giving students who will be working in industry as good a foundation as they would get in technical colleges in other countries. I notice that the British are so keen to improve on their technical education system and to bring their technical colleges up to the highest standard of efficiency— a matter upon which they have concentrated a great deal of attention in recent years—that they have now put forward proposals that in the chief British technological colleges it will be possible for a student to go through these colleges and, at the end of the course, to get a degree which will not be inferior to the degree in science or engineering or allied subjects connected with industry which he would get in a university.

There is no question in Britain of the technology colleges being inferior to the universities but I think it is recognised that if the universities were to do their work for the nation they would give a good deal of time to the problems of research. For the actual practical training of the young man in industry who has the fundamental education, ability and initiative to better himself, it is high time that we should consider whether the provision that is made at present is at all sufficient. In my opinion, it is not. The Minister ought to give close and careful consideration to the plans which the vocational committee had in mind many years ago, by which it was intended that the Kevin Street institution would be replaced or extended. It seems to me that it would be impossible to extend it on its present site and that the only alternative is to build a school that will compare, in its own sphere, with the St. Mary's School of Domestic Science.

First of all, let me say that I believe thoroughly in vocational education. The point I am worried about is, who is to pay for vocational education. Under this Bill and under the previous Acts the vocational committees were more or less dictators as far as the local rating authority was concerned. The local rating authority, whether it liked it or not, had to impose on the ratepayers of the county a sum stated by the vocational education committee. I think that is wrong. The Minister might say that that is all right in the sense that the local rating authority appoints the committee. That is right to a certain extent but in certain counties there is an unwritten obligation on the local authority to put certain people on the vocational education committee. At the same time there may be a number of urban councils in an area and it is quite possible that there will be a vocational education committee that is not representative of the people elected by the ratepayers.

I believe in vocational education but, if you have set up a committee that can demand from the local rating authority 10d., 11d. or 1/- in the £, or whatever it may be, it is wrong that the national Exchequer should not bear the cost of vocational education.

I believe that there is a good deal of money misspent under the heading of vocational education. I would suggest to the Minister that a committee of inquiry should be appointed to go into the question of vocational education in each county, to see what is being done there that is useful for the community or what is being done as a result of a certain amount of agitation in a local area to get this thing and that thing, this white elephant built here and another white elephant built there. The committee would report to the Minister in regard to every county. The Minister would then see whether the work of vocational education is achieving the purpose it should achieve, whether it is desirable for this House to expend the taxpayers' money and whether it is desirable for this House to compel the ratepayers to expend further money on vocational education.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to have teachers in Macroom teaching people how to make éclairs when they do not know how to make soup. I am referring to domestic economy. I believe that these are matters that should be dealt with by the vocational education committees. I consider that it would be much more beneficial if people were taught the best ways of using the cheaper parts of meat in soups, stews and other dishes than to be taught how to make high-class confectionery which the people in the country do not really want.

I again would suggest to the Minister that a committee of inquiry should be appointed to find out the extent to which we are getting results from the vocational education system that we have adopted and to consider the question whether it is right to employ people in rural areas in County Cork to teach people something that will inculcate in them a desire to run into Cork City or to come up to Dublin. There are 101 aspects which this committee of inquiry could explore and on which they could give the Minister very valuable information. Before the Minister or this House inflicts an obligation on the taxpayer to pay 10d., 11d. or 1/- in the £ of the ratepayers' money, the Minister would be well advised to get a report from a committee of inquiry as to whether such expenditure is justified or not.

Thug an tAire ráiteas an-shuímiúl dúinn ar chúrsaí gairm-oideachais sa, tír seo agus do thaithnigh sé liom go mór a chloisint uaidh go bhfuil gairm-oideachais ag dul chun cinn cuíosach maith. Tá roinnt deacrachtaí ag baínt leis an gceist seo, an gairm-oideachais, ach is í an cheist is mó agus is deacra atá le réiteach ná ceist an airgid. Is dóigh liomsa dá mbeimís chun gairm-oideachas do leathnú i gceart, do leathnú go fairsing ar fud na tíre, go dteastódh i bhfad níos mó aírgid uainn ná mar atá ar fáil.

Tá difríocht mhór idir scéal na gcathrach, scéal na mbailte móra agus scéal na tuaithe maidir le ceist seo an gairm oideachais agus is é mo thuairim go bhfuil sé de cheart ag muintir na tuaithe an oiread tairbhe agus is féidir a bhaint as an scéim seo agus atá ag muintir na gcathrach nó lucht na mbailte móra, go mór mhór nuair a chuimhnímid ar an imirce, na daoine ag fágaínt na tuaithe chun dul thar lear nó chun dul go dtí na cathracha agus na bailte móra. Dá bhféadaimis, le cabhair ón scéim seo, saol na ndaoine faoin dtuaith do ghealadh agus d'fheabhsú, ba mhaith an rud é, ach, mar adúrt, ní trí airgead a déanfar é sin. Maidir leis an gcaoi ina bhfuighfear an t-airgead, ni dóigh liom gur ceart dúinn bheith ag braith ró-mhór ar lucht díolta na rátaí mar dá mbeimis chun an scéim do chur chun cinn ar fud na tuaithe do réir mar a thiocfadh an t-airgead ó na húdaráis áitiúla, is baolach go gcuirfi moill ar an scéal mar tá an oiread sin rudaí ag braith ar na húdarais áitiula faoi láthair is nach furasta dhóibh an bille a sheasamh.

Maidir le ceist seo an ghairm-oideachais, ba mhaith liom fháil amach an bhfuilimid ag cur ceiste na Gaeilge chun cinn an oiread agus is féidir. Tá a fhios agam go maith go bhfuil obair mhaith á dhéanamh, go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar ábhar teagaísc ar chlár na gairm-scoile agus is maith an rud sin gan dabht, ach níl a fhios agam an dtugtar an oiread spéise don teangan agus ba cheart, agus go mór mhór do labhairt na teangan Deirtear "Beatha teangan í do labairt" agus dá bhféadaimis labairt na Gaeilge do chur chun cinn sna scoileanna seo, bheadh obair mhaith á dhéanamh againn.

Rud eile atá de dhíth orainn is dóig liom, sna scoileanna sin, ná na brainsí a bhaineann le ceist na Gaeilge, na brainse cultúra ar nós drámaíocht, ceol Gaelach agus mar sin de. Do dhein an tAire tagairt do dhrámaíocht agus is maith liom a chloisint uaidh go bhfuiltear ag tabhairt aire agus ag cur suime sa bhrainsí sin in áiteanna áirithe, ach is dóigh liomsa gur ceart misneach a thabhairt do na daoine ins gach áit leanúint leis na brainsí sin, drámaíocht, ceol agus amhránaíocht na nGael, mar, maidir leis an saol seo, an saol atá inniu againn agus an méid rudaí atá ag brú isteach orainn ó lasmuigh, tá géar-ghá le tréan-iarracht sa tslí sin.

Is minic a bhí mé ag fáil loicht ar Radío Éireann mar gheall ar sin, ná tugtar go leor spáis do cheist ná Gaeilge agus do cheist cultúra na Gaeilge, maidir le ceol agus drámaíocht, ach b'fhéidir nach furasta an clár a leathnú an oiread sin is a shásódh sinne, Gaeil, mar bíonn an oiread sin daoine ag éisteacht. Ní hionann, áfach, cás na scoileanna seo mar daoine óga is mó a bhíonn ag freastal orthu, daoine atá tar éis na bun-scoileanna d'fhágaint agus sé is iad sin an t-aos is mó tábhachta. Bíonn gach éinne ag rá gur tar éis na bun-scoile d'fhágaint a thagann an mathallú ar cheist na Gaeilge. Sin é an chúis go n-abraimse gur ceart luí amach níos mó ar chúrsaí na Gaeilge agus cultúr na Gaeilge sna scoileanna seo. Ach ní hionann seo is a rá ná fuil obair á dhéanamh. Tá, agus obair mhaith in áiteanna, ach, in áiteanna eile, is baol liom ná fuil an oiread sin á dhéanamh, mar ní leor brainse mar sin bheith ar an gclár agus á mhúnadh mar bhrainse teagaisc. Ba cheart go mbead sé mar gnáththeangain ag na scóláiri an oiread agus is féidir agus múinteoirí oilte in a chomhair sin.

When I saw the size of this Bill, I did not really expect that we would have an opportunity of covering the whole field of vocational education in this country. Vocational education is a comparatively new experiment here, and, when the 1930 Act was enacted, I for one was rather sceptical as to the future success of the scheme which that Act envisaged. While I am not fully satisfied with the rate of progress that has been made. I am glad to say that the doubts I had when the scheme came in first have been to a great extent dispelled. In fact, it has worked better than I expected. At that time, to say nothing but the truth, I could not see any great difference between what would be described as technical education and vocational education, and even still I think that one could be described as an expansion of the other, although there are subjects being taught in the vocational schools now which would come under the heading of vocational education that were being taught even before the Act came into existence. However, that is only a side issue.

The difficulty about a measure of this kind is that there appears, to me at any rate, to be too great a tendency to ask the local ratepayers to bear the burden in these matters. I know, of course, that it will be, and that it can be, argued that it is only a very small impost on the local rates; but, when it is considered in connection with all the other demands that are being made on the local ratepayers, it is not so innocuous as one would think, especially when, as we may expect, in a couple of years' time another measure of this kind will be brought before the Dáil for an additional financial contribution from the local rates.

The burden of the local rates is already very high, and it is a little thing in some places that would make them a real hardship, especially in the county I represent, where the rate is so high; in fact, it is the highest in the whole country. It is not what we have before us at the present moment that would make a person hesitate to give full assent to this, but what may come along afterwards. There will be a tendency, like Oliver Twist, to ask for more.

I was listening to Deputy P. D. Lehane when he spoke about the rural vocational schools. I think, if I do not make a mistake, that he described them, in some cases, as "white elephants". I do not agree with him at all. There may be schools, and I know there are schools, where the enrolment, and especially the attendance of pupils, could not be said to be up to the mark, but that is no reason why the general scheme in rural Ireland should be condemned. I do not see why people living in rural Ireland are not as much entitled to vocational education as are the people living in the cities and towns.

If I have any fault to find with the present position as regards vocational education, it is that I consider there is a bias in favour of the cities and towns. Of course, that is understandable enough when one considers that it is in the cities and towns we have the big populations and it is easier to provide, maintain and fill vocational schools with students in those big centres of population than it is in rural Ireland. But it is not because of that that we should give up the idea of trying to spread vocational education in the country parts.

A lot has been said about the flight from the land and many people say that we should go out of our way and indulge in a certain amount of expense for the purpose of trying to stem the flight from the land to the cities and towns and, of course, also the flow of emigration. I think this is one way, if it could be carried to its logical conclusion, in which the lives of the people in rural Ireland could be made brighter and more interesting. I am inclined to think that we do not do enough to try to give the people in rural areas a better conception of what this scheme of vocational education could hold for them.

I do not at all agree with Deputy P. D. Lehane when he talks about these "white elephants". The people in rural Ireland are entitled to their vocational schools. They have to pay rates and taxes just the same as the people in the cities and the towns. He referred to domestic economy. I must admit I did not realise he was such an expert in domestic economy as to be competent to tell the instructresses how to prepare certain dishes. Domestic economy is one of the most important, if not the most important, subject in the curriculum of the vocational schools. There is a great deal to be learned in these domestic economy classes and domestic economy teaching provides a good profession for many of our young girls. From the little experience I have had of vocational schools I am glad to say that these classes in domestic economy are very well conducted and that the instruction given is being availed of very freely.

Deputy P. D. Lehane suggested that a committee of inquiry should be set up to ascertain how vocational education is working. I do not think it is necessary to set up such a committee of inquiry. We have had enough committees of inquiry. As I pointed out, we have not had a very wide experience yet of vocational education. As far as I can see there is no necessity for an inquiry since all of us travelling up and down the country can see for ourselves what is going on. We form our own conclusions and we can give expression to our opinions here. We might have to wait a long time for any assistance from this proposed committee of inquiry.

As to the rate of contribution, from the local authorities I am inclined to think that too much is being demanded of them as compared with the contribution made by the State. The contribution demanded from the local authorities is almost as great as that coming from the State. I do not think that is right.

What is wrong with it?

There is no burden on the rates in connection with primary education. Secondary education imposes no burden on the rates. Here, in connection with vocational education, the local ratepayers are asked to bear a burden of nearly 50 per cent. The present contribution is a small amount, as I pointed out earlier, but it can run into a considerable figure in the long run.

The Minister referred to the experiment carried out in Cork City in connection with choral singing classes. He told us that the experiment there is now being emulated in Tipperary. I think that is excellent but I would like to know what kind of choral singing it is Is .it Irish choral singing?

I would like the Deputy to understand that the organiser in charge of it has actually duplicated for circulation 24 Irish songs— that is, Gaelic songs—for use in all these choral classes, so that the Irish side is well attended to in the entire scheme.

I was anxious to know that. I am very glad that the Minister is in a position to give us a good account in regard to the particular matter of choral singing in the Irish language. I am one of those who feel that the fine arts of music and song have not got their proper place in our system of education. We are by tradition a musical people. Continental visitors acknowledge that but, at the same time, they say that we do not pay as much attention to music as we should. Certainly we do not give it as much attention as is given to it on the Continent of Europe. I hope and trust that this experiment will bear fruit and that, as a result of it, we shall have a revival of traditional Irish music and song.

The Minister referred to the subjects that are being taught in these vocational schools. I am glad to know that such things as rural and agricultural science are being taught. I think that in the congested districts where there are fishing centres instruction in the manufacturing of fishing gear should be considered. That art would appear to be dying out. I think it would be a very appropriate subject in a vocational school in a fishing centre. I know that it will be a long time before we will have enough vocational schools in these centres because of lack of money and so on. If we have to depend solely on what we get out of a scheme like this, which is financed partly out of the rates, we shall never go ahead. I think that in the congested areas, especially in the Gaeltacht, the scheme should be reconsidered because what is applicable to the country generally is not applicable to the Gaeltacht. There should be a special scheme for the Gaeltacht. However, we shall probably have another opportunity of talking about that.

Deputy Derrig mentioned the school-leaving age. I, too, have referred to this on former occasions. I am one of those who would advocate the raising of the school-leaving age. In bygone days the Minister himself was in favour of it. I do not know whether he is still quite so enthusiastic about it.

You did not do anything about it when you had an opportunity of doing something.

We did. We started it in Cork and Limerick and we were waiting for the day when it might possibly be extended to other parts of the country. I wonder if, having given full and careful consideration to the whole problem of raising the school-leaving age, the Minister could now give us some idea as to when he considers it will, or can, be done. I understand the difficulties.

I have not yet got over the fright that Deputy Derrig got, too, when he looked at the bill.

I understand the difficulties concerning the amount of money that it would involve. It would involve making extensions to the existing vocational schools to absorb pupils of the age from 14 to 16, or, failing that, to provide additional accommodation in the primary schools. That also would cost money. It is not such an easy matter as some people seem to think.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon rud eile ag rith trím aigne i láthair na huaire i dtaobh ceist seo an ghairm-oideachais. Mar adúirt i dtosach, ba cheart féachaint chuige go mbainfí feidhm as na scoileanna gairm-oideachais chun labhairt na Gaeilge agus cultúr na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn, ach beidh caoi againn arís ar an scéal san a chíoradh. Fé mar adeirtear, beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach.

The Minister, when presenting the present Education Bill, indicated, I think, in the first instance that it was to be in the nature of a purely technical Bill. On this reading, however, he has given Deputies an opportunity of reviewing the whole system of vocational education. In so far as he has presented us with this very welcome, very complete and very detailed report of the activities of that section of his Department which deals with vocational education, he has rather taken us unawares and has rather taken a jump ahead of us. However, Deputy Kissane and other Deputies have shown that the House welcomes this opportunity of dealing with the latest form and phase of education in this country. It is radically different from all other types of education. Judging from the remarks which we hear, even in this House, it will require a considerable time for some minds to get used to what is involved in the idea of vocational education. I think it was George Bernard Shaw who perpetrated the wise-crack "That those who can do; that those who cannot teach." Technical and vocational education, and those who are trained to administer it, burst that bubble, because those who teach under a vocational education scheme must know how to do as well as how to teach. As the Minister has shown us in his review, they are qualified actually to do the work, because it has to be done and it has to be administered. It cannot be theorised about in front of the students in regard to the large number of industries for which schemes have been provided, or in regard to the large number of technical classes which are held, and these cover a multitude of subjects, such as the Minister has read out.

This type of education is new, and it has been subjected to severe adverse criticism. Listening to the Minister proceeding on the even tenor of his way in giving us this review of the success of this section of his Department, one would hardly imagine that a few years ago it was a matter of touch and go as to whether we would have vocational education in this country at all. It is not worth while adverting to it except, in passing, to recall the very ill-informed barrage of criticism in which at least one daily paper indulged and in which a few other dailies followed. We had that ill-informed barrage of criticism in regard to the whole question of vocational education.

Some slight echo of that campaign could be heard in the remarks of Deputy P. D. Lehane, of the princely and palatial buildings down the country—that, I think, was the term used at the time—housing a few students, and evidently for no other purpose than to provide remuneration for a few graduates of the universities. But, thank God, the education authorities of this country stuck to their guns and maintained the necessity of this country providing vocational education for the people. That attitude has more than justified itself. The Minister has not told anything like the complete story. He might indeed add to it. A few figures might satisfy the most doubtful critic of the system of vocational education. If the Minister would give us the enrolment figures for the last couple of years, not only in the city schools but in the rural schools, I think they would demonstrate that there is hardly a technical or vocational school or a department in any one of them which is not taxed to its capacity to provide instruction for the students desiring education. In a good many cases, I understand, the schools have long waiting lists of students anxious to enrol and benefit by the form of education provided under this scheme.

The purpose of this Bill is to provide money for vocational education. Any money invested in education is a sound investment for the country. Money that is devoted particularly to providing opportunities for the technological advancement of its citizens will well repay the expenditure.

If we have an Industrial Development Authority going to initiate and advise on the establishment of new industries, if it is going to expand the already existent industries, if it is going to gear up our industrial plant to modern needs and technique, it is surely essential that, pari passu with that, there should be a Department of State charged with providing the proper form of education for the operatives, for the workers, for the technical experts who must man these expanding industries. If we require increased agricultural production, which is so often demanded, so often urged by responsible Ministers, surely the correct way of obtaining that is by providing a type of agricultural education such as is provided for in this Bill.

The Minister's review of the work done under this system of education, as I said, is incomplete in many respects. There is one significant omission; there are many others. I do not know what reason the Minister has—it may be because he has his mind on the criticism voiced by Deputy Kissane that there is a bias in favour of the urban centre against the rural centre—but he did not expand at all upon the commercial side of the work done by these technical schools. This country does a very large commercial trade. Commercial work in the shops and distributing trades forms a very large portion of the total work of the nation and these technical schools provide training for those who operate, as it were, the administrative side of many of these industries. These technical schools even feed the Civil Service. These actual copies of the Minister's speech which we have were probably prepared by recent students of the technical schools in the commercial section. They feed the Civil Service with shorthand-typists, clerks and various other type of officers. They man the offices and shops in the town and make it possible to carry on the complex business of modern civilisation.

That work is not so attractive to talk about perhaps as the work in the rural centres: the providing of rural crafts and opportunities for woodwork and mechanical work in small remote centres; but it is just as essential and necessary for the farmers that they should have their accounts properly kept, proper records kept, and all the proper overheads dealt with correctly in the big centres. Thus, indirectly, they have some gain and some advantage from the work done by those commercial classes in the technical education centres.

There is no bias in the scheme so far as anyone can see. Those in charge of it in the Department attempt to meet every genuine and responsible need there is for a class. So far as they do that, these schools cover a very wide field, an extensive field. They are developing at a rate which was unheard of in 1930 when the first Act came into force. Not only do they teach all those technical subjects which the Minister mentioned, not only do they take part in teaching Gaelic, they also provide opportunities, where there is a demand for it, for instruction in foreign languages, and instruction in such types of art as sculpture. There are classes in sculpture in some of these technical schools. No matter what type of instruction is required by the local people, if there is a genuine demand for it, it is the usual case that the local vocational education committee does everything in its power to provide the instructors and the accommodation to cater for that class. That is only as it should be. That attitude is largely made possible owing to the method by which the vocational education scheme is built up or erected.

The objection was made by Deputy Kissane that a large portion of the finances of the technical education scheme is derived from the local rates. It is that dual method of financing that gives the local committee the right of representation which they do not have, and which is unheard of in the national or secondary system of education. In so far as that type of financial control exists, it is perhaps a novel departure in the sphere of education, but it is a democratic and useful one. It is one to which, I think, we are now very definitely wedded, and it would be a grave mistake to disturb that.

One might offer this criticism of the Bill, not that too much of a burden is placed upon the local authority by the provision of these schools, but that too little is placed upon them. The Minister is unusually conservative in this matter. His report on the development of the technical education scheme throughout the country and the figure I asked for with regard to enrolment, which is the one which would most clearly sum it up, indicate that a further great expansion of this whole scheme is a matter of the near future. If there is to be industrial and commercial expansion in this country, if there is to be development in agriculture, then, with all these must go the development of some form of education. I suggest that it is the technical form of education that would best suit the needs of the nation in the future. Technical education is referred to as the poor man's university but the vocational education schemes will to a very large extent at least, eclipse, in time, the secondary education scheme. It is the nature of development in the present world that people should have a vocation. Criticisms that can be made of the workings of the scheme are based upon the fact that it is not sufficiently vocational. A defect that the Minister might well look into is this. I am not aware that any method has been tried of vocationally judging the pupil before he enters upon a course of instruction. We have no such machinery at present in our schools. In America they have tried different types of vocational tests—intelligence tests, intelligence quotients and other types of tests—to ascertain whether a given pupil is fit for a given course of instruction. The Minister has given us instances here of types of courses which are available on the one hand for boys and on the other hand for girls at certain stages of their educational development. The test of the matter at present is roughly the desire of the parent or of the pupil that the pupil should enter upon a certain course.

I think that the experience of most technical teachers is that there is a very large wastage—an unfortunate wastage—in the type of instruction given. It would take months of instruction to ascertain that a given pupil is not properly qualified and cannot be properly qualified at the stage of development at which he comes to the technical school for the particular type of education which he is seeking. In other words, there are many misfits. There are boys who would make first-class mechanics and first-class engineers but who, because of the rating that they receive in entrance examination tests, are more or less forced into commercial classes to learn subjects in which they have no interest. On the other hand, there are other pupils who, on account of the method of grading the pupils at present in operation, find themselves in engineering classes or in domestic economy or housewife classes and who are in no way qualified to benefit by the instruction they receive in these classes. I do not make this as a very severe criticism because the whole system of education is very new, but I suggest to the Minister that it might be possible in the near future to direct his mind to the question of providing some more scientific and up-todate form of grading of pupils, thus making better use of the teacher in so far as he will give to each teacher the greatest possible number of students in his class who are likely to be successful in the vocation they desire to pursue and thereby reducing the very heavy mortality that exists in many sections of the scheme. That is only one technical point that I should like to bring to the Minister's attention.

Might I ask the Deputy if he is referring to night classes or to day classes?

I am referring in particular to day classes where the pupils have a full-day course instruction. The mortality also exists in night classes but I do not think it can be prevented to such a degree there because of the voluntary nature of enrolment and the fact that most of those attending night classes are already in occupations and have made their course of life. There, mortality is due not so much to the fact that they are in the wrong type of groove as that they have become indifferent to advancement or that there are other inducements, such as the cinema and dances, to prevent their attendance at classes.

I can understand references to mortality in the night classes, where a lot of students set out with great enthusiasm in the autumn and often give up before Christmas, some more after Christmas, and so forth, but when the Deputy refers to mortality in respect of the day classes I feel he must be referring to a different type of mortality. I wonder if he could elaborate on that.

In the case of night classes it may be described as quantitative mortality or deterioration: in the case of day classes it might more properly be described as a qualitative deterioration or wastage or mortality. In other words, if the Minister is a teacher he has a class of, say, 30 pupils. A usual class in a technical school is composed of from 20 to 30 pupils. If he has 30 pupils and if each of these pupils has been, as it were, seeded so that they have certain primary qualities that would enable them to benefit most by the instruction in the course they are doing, then each of them will derive the maximum advantage from every hour's teaching. Each of them can be considered as obtaining a certain proportion of the teacher's one hour. If, however, there should be a certain number of students in the class, say four, five or ten students, who are not at all properly graded to take advantage of that course—whether it be in engineering, domestic economy, commercial subjects and so on—then the teacher has an extra strain imposed upon him in trying to teach pupils what they cannot learn, what they are indifferent to and what they will never be qualified to work at. In that way he is reducing the maximum time value that he can give to the other pupils who are properly in that class. That is the type of wastage that I have in mind. You get a certain number of girls who, on some grading system or other, are posted to commercial classes. They have no chance or possibility of ever becoming clerks, shorthand typists, cashiers or book-keepers, though they spend two or three years at the course. These girls end up as domestic servants, waitresses, kitchen hands in hotels, and so forth. There has been wastage there. It might have been possible to avoid that. It might have been possible to have posted these girls to the more important section of the school, to classes in housecraft and domestic economy, and thereby relieve the pressure on the commercial classes. In this way, those who were taking advantage of tuition in the commercial classes would have been more fully instructed and would have derived more value from the instruction they received because the smaller the class the greater the value to each individual pupil. Similarly, those who were posted to the domestic economy classes or housecraft classes would have been better equipped for the course of life they finally pursued.

Finally, I want to come to a very sore point. The Minister has indicated a very fine scheme here, on which we have all dilated. He has traversed a very broad course, showing what the progress has been and how the money that it is proposed to raise shall be spent. He has shown the necessity that there is in many scheduled areas for increased accommodation. He has shown that there is a real demand for this type of education. He has referred to the difficulty of obtaining fully qualified teachers. In this connection, Deputy Derrig talked about the competition of industrial life for qualified teachers.

The Minister must realise that the whole superstructure of the education system rests primarily upon the vocational education teacher. If the teacher is happy in his work, the Minister, and through him the nation, will get full value for the money spent on vocational education. If the teacher is not satisfied with his conditions and if there is the competition of better grade and better paid work outside the system of vocational education, the Minister will not get the value he should get for the money expended nor will the local councils get full value for the extra 1d. or 2d. in the rates that they are required to spend under the provisions of this Bill.

Is it not opportune for the Minister to give us some indication of his attitude or the attitude of his Department in regard to the long outstanding question of teachers' remuneration, salary scales and other matters which have been before him for a considerable length of time? I may tell the Minister frankly that the Vocational Education Officers' Organisation are becoming very dissatisfied, to put it mildly, with the dilatory, dilly-dally, methods of the Department. I understand that they expected the Minister to make a pronouncement on this question by the end of last month. The fact that it has not been forthcoming has had very adverse repercussions. The Minister, I am sure, would desire and would need the fullest co-operation of the professional body representing the vocational education teachers. In order to obtain that cooperation, he should avail of this opportunity to give us some idea as to the possible determination of the outstanding questions in relation to the salaries of teachers, of clerks and of the other officers under the vocational education scheme.

Some of the teachers in the higher ranks, undoubtedly, have received certain amelioration of their conditions, certain advances in salaries and bonuses, and details like that, but the vast mass of the lower paid teachers are very critical in the present situation. The teachers are not insulated from the outside. They are fully aware of the activities of trades unions in seeking extra remuneration to combat the high cost of living. The Government itself, as we know, is concerned with this question of the high cost of living which bears very heavily upon white collar workers, such as vocational education teachers. A case can be made, perhaps, to show that it bears more heavily upon them than upon other workers who receive roughly the same remuneration as they do for their work. The teachers have certain responsibilities and certain standards to maintain, which they find it extremely difficult to do at the present time. They bear the full brunt of the high cost of living, of which the Minister is as fully aware as I am. Hope deferred maketh the heart sick. Would the Minister kindly utilise this opportunity to hold out some hope to the vocational education teachers, clerks and other employees under this scheme, that the matter of their salaries, conditions, and so on, will be speedily attended to by his Department?

Is dóigh go bhfuil níos mó tairbhe ag baint le seírbhís an oideachais sna ceantracha bochta ná mar is féidir a bhaint as sna ceantracha deisiúla. Caitheann níos mó de na daoine imeacht as na ceantracha bochta ag saothrú a mbeatha ná mar is gá sna ceantracha eile. I ngeall air sin, ba cheart go gcuirfí an tseirbhís seo, gairm-oideachas, chun cinn níos tapúla ná mar atá sé ar siúl fá láthair.

Tá spéis an-mhór agam sa gceist seo, chomh fada is bhaineas sí le mo dháilcheantar féin agus ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú don Aire faoi scoileanna nua atá ceapaithe le haghaidh na Gaeltachta Thiar. Tá diomú ar na daoine sna ceantracha a bhfuil siad ceapaithe dóibh nach bhfuil siad tosaithe cheana. Do réir scéal a fuair mé ón Aire tamall ó shoin, facthas dom an t-am sin go mbeadh an ceann atá ceaptha do cheantar na Cloiche Brice ar siúl faoi seo, ach níl cosúlacht ar bith leis fós. Ansin, ceantar fíor-Ghaelach, An Cnoc, cuid den fhíor-Ghaeltacht é, ar imigh na sluaite daoine as—agus tá daoine eile ag imeacht fós—ach tá an oiread ann fós agus a líonfadh scoil gairm-oideachais. Sin áit eile a raibh mé ag súil, agus a bhful mé ag súil fós, go dtógfar ceann ann, áit eile i bhfad níos iargúlta ná ceachtar ar bith acu, sin é Arainn. Gealladh ceann do mhuintir Árann freisin agus tá na daoine ansin ag súil gach uile lá go gcloisfidh siad rud éigin faoi scoil gairm-oideachais atá geallta dhoibh.

Bhí mé ag éisteacht le duine ag cáineadh na seirbhísí seo agus níor thagair sé ach do thaobh amháin den tseirbhís seo, sin é tíos agus cócaireacht. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart nó gur féidir aon bhreithiúnas muiníneach a bheith ag duine as cúrsaí na cócaireachta. Is féidir ranganna cócaireachta a chur ar bun in áiteacha agus freastalann na daoine orthu go réasunta maith i dtosach báire agus ansin éiríonn siad tuírseach. Is é an cúis chlamhsáin is mó a bhí ag an Teachta ná nárb í an chócaireacht cheart a bhí ghá múnadh. Chonaic mé féin ranganna cócaireachta sealadacha, agus nuair nár muineadh dóibh déanamh cácaí agus sólaistí agus "fancy cooking," ní raibh siad sásta freastal ar na ranganna agus b'éigin stop a cur sa deireadh leo.

Ar ndóigh, tá sé costasach scoil mhór nua a thógáil agus caithfidh an Roinn a bheith sásta gur fiú an ceantar é. Is féidir tús a dhéanamh ar an obair gan foirgintí seasta costasacha a thógáil. I gceantar amháin i mo dháil cheantar, tá an sagart pobail ag iarradh halla a thógáil agus is é an intinn atá aige faoi ná go mbainfí úsáid as an halla sin le haghaidh cúrsaí cultúra chomh maith le cúrsaí gairm-oideachais. Molaimse don Aire an moladh sin a bhreathnú go cúramach, ar a gcúntar seo go mbeadh séisiún maith nó bliain mhaith agus freastal maith ag an timire agus ansin, mar gheall ar imirce nó cúis eile, laghdódh an freastal; agus i gceann cúpla bliain arís, b'fhéidir go mbeadh sagart pobail no múinteoir scoile ag spreagadh na ndaoine chun freastal ar na ranganna agus go mbeadh méadú agus feabhas ar na cúrsaí. Má tá foirgint nua le haghaidh gairm-oideachais agus é bliain go leith leathfholamh, bheadh daoine ag clamhsán. faoi. Ba cheart ceann a thógail in aon áit a bhfuil sagart pobail á iarraidh, ceann acu mar experiment. Má tá fonn ar na daoine dul ar aghaidh le drámaíocht—agus ba mhaith an rud é sin faoin dtuaith—thabharfadh sé caitheamh aimsire dóibh agus thabharfadh sé oideachas de chíneal amhán dóibh agus go mór mhór cuirfeadh sé labhairt ar an teangan chun cinn freisin.

Chuige sin, ba cheart go mbeadh teagascóirí agus múinteoirí drámaíochta le fáil in áit ar bith a bheadh halla mar sin ann, agus an oiread daoine óga san áit agus a dhéanfadh fuireann mhaith drámaíochta. Nuair a bheadh an obair sin ar bun d'fhéadfaí freisin ranganna sealadacha faoi adhamadóireacht, cócaireacht agus mar sin de a chur ar bun do réir mar bheadh gá leo agus daoine á iarraidh. Is feasach dom go ndearnadh a lán maitheasa leis na ranganna sealadacha, go mór mhór ranganna adhmadóireachta. Tá a fhios agam i dtaobh oileán amháin thiar, áit nach raibh fear ceirde ann, nach raibh fear ar bith i ndon teach a dhéanamh, ná troscán tí a dhéanamh, ná fiú amháin cathaoir cisteanaí, ach tar éis cúpla séasúr de na ranganna seo chonaic mé féin go raibh daoine ar an oileán sin agus bhí siad i ndon troscáin tí a dhéanamh agus sábhálfaidh sé sin a lán airgid ar na daoine sin mar b'eigean dóibh roimhe sin fir ceirde a thabhairt isteach san áit.

N1 dóigh liom go bhfuil aon duine a bhfuil eolas aige ar cheantracha bochta nach bhfuil meas aige ar na seirbhísí seo agus ba mhaith linn mar sin iad a fheiceáil ag dul ar aghaidh agus ag dul chun cinn chomh mór agus is féidir iad a chur. Ar ndóigh tá an tAire ag iarraidh tuilleadh den chostas a chur ar na húdaráis áitiúla.

Nílím, ach, an cothrom céanna a bhí orthu i gcónaí.

I dtaobh Chontae na Gaillimhe, tá cead ag an gcomhairle contae costais suas go dtí seacht bpingne sa bpunt a chur ar mhuintir na Gaillimhe faoi láthair.

Ach in aghaidh gach aon phunt eile a chaiteas siad, caithfidh an Rialtas punt eile.

Tá airgead ag dul go hÁrainn, cuir i gcás.

Deir mo chomh-Theachta—

Tá a lán eolais aige.

——go bhfuil tuille le fáil i mBaile Atha Cliath ná mar atá faoin dtuaith.

Chomh fada is atá an pointe sin i gceist má tá áiteacha deisiúla faoin tír nach bhfuil ag iaraidh na seirbhísí seo, molaim don Aire pé airgead atá dá sholáthair do na háiteacha sin a sholáthair do na háiteacha bochta a bhfuil sé ag teastáil uathu, na háiteacha is mó ar féidir muinín a bheith againn go mbeidh freastal agus tinnreamh maith ar na ranganna iontu.

Ar ndóig mura mbeadh ann ach go sholáthrófaí fir ceirde in áit ar bith le déanamh tí agus déanamh troscáin a dhéanamh b'fhiú an tseirbhís lena aghaidh sin, ach nuair a thagas tú go dtí áit ar gá don chuid is mó de na buachaillí is na cáilíní imeacht as is folas go dteastaíonn an tseirbhís seo i bhfad níos géire. Más gá do bhuachaillí óga agus do chailíní óga imeacht as Conamara nó a leitheid céanna d'áit go Gaillimh, go Baile Atha Cliath, nó go Sasana nó go haon áit eile nach fearr go mór a dhéanfhas na daoine sin amach agus eolas acu ar cheird éigean agus má tá siad i ndon a gcuid lámha a úsáid go stuama? I ngeall ar sin tá meas againn ar sheirbhís an ghairm-oideachais sna háiteacha bochta sin agus faríor géar tá an fhíor-Ghaelteacht le comhaireamh isteach leis na ceantaracha sin.

Anois focal scoir: má dhéanann tagairt do rud a ndearna mé tagairt cheana dhó tá mé dhá dhéanamh mar gur dóigh liom go bhfuil sé tábhachtach—is é sin na hallaí a bheadh úsáideach le haghaidh gairm-oideachais agus cúrsaí cultúra. Ní gá iad cinn an-chostasacha a dhéanamh; ní gá iad a dhéanamh leath chomh galánta leis na scoileanna atá ann cheana. Mura mbeidís ag teastáil le haghaidh cúrsaí oideachais, ar ndóig ní bheidís ina white elephants mar adúirt duine éigin thall ansin ar ball. Tá mise ag iarraidh an clamhsán sin gur féidir white elephants a thabhairt ar cheann ar bith acu a bhreagnú. Táim ag iarraidh ar an Aire go solathrófaí corrcheann de na hallaí sin i riocht is go bhfeicimis cén chaoi a n-oibreoidís. Tá mé lán-tsásta i dtaobh ceantaracha a bhfuil daoine san áit a bhearfadh treorú, ar nós na sagairt agus na múinteoirí, agus atá ag cur spéise sa rud, cinnte go mbeadh tairbhe mhór astu agus go n-oibréodh siad go maith. Leis an bhfocal sin cuirim deireadh le mo chuid cainnte.

Tar éis an méid a chualamar ón Aire ag rá gur socraíodh na figiúirí atá sa mBille tar éis dian-iniúchadh a dhéanamh ar an scéal caithfimid ráiteas sin an Aire a ghlacadh. Táim ar aon-intinn le beirt nó triúr Teachta a labhair ar an thaobh eile agus a nocht a dtuairim nárbh fhéidir gur leor an tsuim a bhí á éileamh faoin mBille. Ar ndóigh, ná tógtar orm é má chasaim leis na Teachtaí ar an dtaobh eile den Tigh go rabhadar tostach a ndóthain nuair a bhí an chumhacht acu feidhm éigin a thabhairt don tuairim sin a nochtadar anocht.

Ba mhaith liom a cur leis an méid adúirt an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin agus tá súil agam go n-éistfidh an tAire leis an méid adúirt sé. Bhí an smaoineamh céanna agam féin i dtaobh úsáid na hallaí, go mór mhór sa Ghaeltacht. Is é a mholaimse don Aire ná go soláthrófaí na hallai agus, sin déanta, go dtiocfaí ar réiteach éigin idir obair an choiste ghairm-oideachais agus dream éigin ar nós Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge agus coiste áitiúil faoi stiúrú sagairt an phobail nó éinne eile agus go mbainfí úsáid as na hallaí seo mar scoileanna nó mar hallaí rince agus, más féidir i n-aon chor é, mar amharclanna ina bhféadfaí drámaíocht a thabhairt ar aghaidh. Ní haon smaoineadh nua agamsa an smaoineadh sin agus is dóigh liom go raibh toscaireacht i gcomhairle leis an Aire taobh istigh den tseachtain seo, Dé hAoine nó Dé Sathairn, ó Thir Chonaill leis an gceist cheanann chéanna a phlé—is oth liom nach bhfuil an tAire sa Tigh. Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh sé aird éigean ar an méid adúirt an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin agus más féidir liomsa cur leis go príobháideach leis an Aire, déanfaidh mé é.

Ar ndóigh bhí an ceart ag an Teachta adúirt gur obair anéifeachtach a bhí gá dhéanamh ag na scoileanna gairmoideachais maidir le sábháil na Gaeltachta. Ní dóigh liom gur gá an pointe seo do neartú nó d'athrá. Tá sé intuigthe agus is dóigh liom go dtuigeann an tAire go maith é. Ní hé tuiscint atá i gceist ach déanamh dá réir.

The assurance given by the Minister that the figures arrived at before this measure was introduced were arrived at as a result of a fairly keen scrutiny of the possible demands to be made by vocational education committees, is an assurance which, I suppose, we must accept, but I incline to the view—a view which has been expressed already by Deputy Connolly and by Deputies opposite—that the Minister's assessment of the demands likely to be made by vocational education committees is rather modest. If vocational education is to develop to the extent that many of us hope, money to a much greater amount will have to be made available, whether from the rates raised by local authorities or from the central fund. Let me say that I do not consider that there is much substance in the point which I think Deputy Derrig started to make—I do not think he pursued it very vigorously—that there is some cause of complaint because increased contributions are asked from the local authorities. The Minister's answer to that is one which ought to satisfy any reasonable Deputy. The same proportion is preserved, and, if there has been a lifting of the ceiling for the local authority, the Government are leaving themselves in the position that the ceiling is lifted so far as they are concerned.

Deputy Connolly, in a very realistic approach to the whole question of vocational education, underlined a few things for the Minister which it was well should be underlined. He is particularly well qualified to advise the House on the subject matter of this Bill and his plea—a plea made by other Deputies also—for the development of our vocational schools, particularly in urban areas, into proper technological institutes is one which, I think, should be endorsed by every thinking Deputy. If we are to give this country an industrial as well as an educational arm, we must equip our citizens accordingly, and one of the ways—probably the only way—in which we can do that satisfactorily is by utilising to the fullest possible extent a proper technical education system for the training of apprentices and workers.

The high standard of living, the developed degree of civilisation and the high general level of culture which obtains in the Scandinavian countries is, to my mind, due in the main to the great importance which they have attached to vocational and technical education and the development of their folk schools. In Scandinavian countries, not alone in Denmark but in Sweden and Norway, technical schools, as distinct from the Universities, have played and continue to play an increasingly important part in the industrial development of these countries and in raising living standards and cultúral standards for their citizens.

I do not think there are many Deputies who will take seriously the criticism made here that our vocational schools in rural areas were white elephants. I do not know how seriously that criticism was intended. I would urge on the Minister, if he needs to be urged on the point—I do not think he does—that in these schools, particularly in rural areas, we have to hand potent weapons against emigration, potent instruments whereby our people can be attracted not alone to remain in Ireland but to remain on the land. Bearing that in mind, I think it is only right that there should be a rural bias, and, where possible, a specifically local bias in vocational education in rural areas. It is probably not possible for many reasons—financial considerations would probably prevent it—to build schools in different areas covering very wide curricula, but it should be possible that the immediate local bias in industry or agriculture should be taken into account when laying out the programme for particular schools.

Reference was made to the raising of the school-leaving age. I realised quite a considerable time ago—I think on the first occasion on which the Minister introduced his Estimate—that, in our approach to educational questions, the Minister and people like myself would be poles apart and I am not hopeful that anything I can say with reference to this Bill will be likely to change the Minister's point of view. The Clann na Poblachta Party have considered and still consider the raising of the school-leaving age a question of paramount importance and feel that it is essential that the school-leaving age should be raised without further delay. We have never made any secret of that belief, nor have we been slow to give expression to it in public. As to whether that can be more practically done by raising the school-leaving age in the primary schools or by extending the operation of Part V of the 1930 Act to the whole country, I do not now intend to express an opinion. I would urge on the Minister that now that somebody has made converts of the Party opposite in this respect and in as much as many of the Deputies on this side are of the same view, the Minister should grasp the opportunity and take some steps, whether by the extension of Part V of the Act for the whole country or by raising the school-leaving age in national schools to 15 years for a start, to give our children a longer period at school than they spend at present.

Reference was made by the Minister to Comhairle le Leas Óige and its operation in Dublin and he gave a figure of 50 children who are catered for in the Comhairle and then he referred to a further 2,500 children, presumably between the ages of 14 and 16, who are receiving some benefits through their membership of Boy Scouts or girls' clubs, through Comhairle le Leas Óige. Surely the figures the Minister mentioned of unemployed young people between the ages of 14 and 16 do not represent anything more than a fraction of the unemployed young people in Dublin between those ages? Surely those very figures and the fact that we have so many young people of that age unemployed should be sufficient to coerce the Government into an acceptance of the fact that it is necessary that the school-leaving age should be raised immediately at least to 15 years? Were I to have the determination of policy in that matter I would say 16 years. In my submission there is an unanswerable case for raising the school-leaving age at least to 15 years.

Deputy Derrig, Deputy Connolly and, I think, Deputy Kissane made reference to the necessity for closer collaboration and more frequent consultation between industrial interests, trade union leaders and vocational education authorities. That, I think, is something which is so demonstrably true that one might be accused of wasting time reiterating it. I would like to say that it is a principle to which I subscribe. It is a pity that in some instances where such collaboration and such consultation was instituted there was a departure, and that occurred notably in the case of the beet factory in Thurles. There was for a period an arrangement whereby apprentice sugar cooks were taken from amongst approved students at the Thurles technical school. That procedure was departed from by a semi-State corporation, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann. It is a pity that purely from the point of view of principle it was departed from. Most Deputies know that there were subsequent considerations which made it a much greater pity, because it resulted in a protracted strike in Thurles. This principle should be adhered to. It follows as naturally as night follows day that if we are to have an efficient vocational education system we must have a contented teaching body. That point has already been made.

I would recommend to the Minister's consideration the position of the part-time teachers. In many instances the position of the part-time teacher is one of misery almost beyond description. Many who are regarded as part-time teachers by vocational education authorities are part-time in this sense only, that they are not otherwise employed and are teaching for only a limited number of hours per week. I have personal knowledge of three or four cases of such teachers who are endeavouring to exist on salaries which in some cases are below the level that is paid to the most unskilled worker imaginable.

I do not want to take up the time of the House by referring to what are purely Dublin problems, but I think I am at least entitled to say that if Kevin Street is to cater even for the number of students at present seeking to be enrolled there, then that particular technical school will have to be rebuilt. I am afraid it cannot be rebuilt there because I do not think there is space available for an extension. I have had experience, and other Dublin Deputies are probably in the same position, of being approached by constituents, particularly in respect to the electrical classes in Kevin Street. I remember one of my constituents saying "I have a son who wants to become an electrician and why can he not be enrolled in Kevin Street?" The answer is that in Kevin Street there is not sufficient room for all the pupils anxious to be enrolled there. There is not much point in talking about developing our technical schools into proper technological institutes if we have not accommodation for the limited number of pupils that the necessarily limited courses call forth.

With regard to the Dublin School of Music, perhaps I had better say nothing. If I were to express myself on that subject I might go too far. Suffice it to say that the conditions under which the teachers and pupils work in the Dublin School of Music are a scandal, particularly in view of the fact that the school has quite rightly earned a reputation that has gone far beyond the shores of Ireland. Deputies may recall that within the past few weeks a young student who received no other musical education than that which she got in the Dublin School of Music was accorded a very high and signal honour by the French Government authorities and is continuing her musical education in France. If work like that is being done by teachers in the Dublin School of Music, surely it is a disgrace if vocational education committees or the central authority are going to be niggardly about the few pounds that will give us the opportunity to make the School of Music a credit to our capital city?

In conclusion, may I say that I think the Minister underestimates the willingness of the Irish people to pay for services when they recognise that those services are good. There might be many occasions when the present Minister for Education, or any other Minister, might come to the House asking us to authorise the spending of money when the House would be much slower to give that authorisation than it would be in respect of a measure of this nature. If the Minister had come and asked the House to pass a Bill involving the Exchequer in much heavier commitments than does the present measure, I still think, in view of the services we have got from the vocational schools and taking into account the nature of their limitations, he would have got any assistance he required in enacting that measure.

I welcome this Bill. For the past 15 years I have had experience of vocational education and for the past five years I have come to close grips with the system. As a member of the County Cork Vocational Committee, I found that there were times when we were anxious, perhaps, to wound but were afraid to strike because of lack of finance. I do not know what the original rate was in Cork but during my time I know that it started at 7d. and was later increased to 8d. We have at the moment 14 vocational schools in Cork County, a vocational school for every town with a population of 2,000 and over. We have one school which is unique in the history of vocational education because of the way in which it came to be built. I am speaking of the school in Coachford which was erected there by the parish council. Subsequently they asked us to take it over. That school is just as beneficial in the area it serves as are some of those in the big towns.

How these schools have succeeded in carrying on successfully considering the finance at their disposal I do not know. Lack of adequate finance meant the curtailment of the education for which the schools were intended. There are some people who may hold that no benefits accrue from this particular type of education. On the council of which I am a member there are a number of reactionaries imbued with the idea of retrenchment and the obtaining of maximum services at minimum cost. At all times they object to any increase in expenditure and, even when it is mandatory, they endeavour to reduce the estimate presented to them. I am grateful to the Minister for increasing the rate from 8d. to 10d.

There are a number of undisclosed successes attaching to the system of vocational training in County Cork. Deputy Con Lehane spoke about the cooks for the sugar factories. I was one of the first members of a local authority to propose the preparation of skilled Irish labour to replace foreign skilled labour which was employed in all the sugar factories when I first went into public life. Eventually that principle was accepted by the sugar company. I am not conversant with the reasons for the strikes but I am conversant with the fact that we were able to provide as competent Irishmen as technical workers in our sugar factories as were the Belgians, the Dutch and the Germans.

Reference was made to the school-leaving age. I am in favour of the school-leaving age being raised but I can see certain difficulties for the workers in the rural areas. It is very hard to expect a man with a wage of £3 10/- per week and a family of six to keep his eldest boy at home when he reaches 14 years of age instead of letting him out to work for whatever meagre wage he can get and thereby help to keep the family in the necessaries of life. That cannot be done until such time as some improvement is made in the wages and conditions for rural workers generally. Until that is done this question of raising the school-leaving age must remain in abeyance. I approve of the continuation system where that is feasible, but even that cannot be made a general rule in rural areas; it is only practicable where there is an established school.

I take this opportunity of paying tribute to the Minister for the courageous way in which he has faced up to the problem of providing three more schools in Cork. Each successive native Government has done its share to advance vocational education. Cumann na nGaedheal did its share; the Fianna Fáil Government did its share in advancing it still further, and I am proud to say that our Minister in the Inter-Party Government is carrying on the good work very effectively.

Sometimes I find it difficult to understand how we have managed to make such progress in vocational education. I remember when the majority of the teachers were merely amateurs. Even then they got results that seem almost unbelievable to-day when one considers the level to which the standards have been raised before teachers are now accepted by the Department for the purpose of staffing these vocational schools. Undoubtedly, the raising of the standard is achieving good results.

I am sure the Department, when preparing this Bill, has closely measured the amount required. As far as Cork County is concerned I hope the amount will be sufficient. I know it will bring in approximately £10,000 in Cork County. I understand the Department will give the equivalent of that from the Central Fund.

You will get pound for pound.

That, in itself, is a very good increase for Cork County. I think we should have in the country an intensive drive to advance vocational education. I am very much concerned with the manual trade side of it. I am afraid we do not give enough consideration to the question of encouraging boys to go in for trades such as carpentry or engineering, and girls for domestic economy. Some people seem to regard it as infra dig to ask their children to do that. It seems to me that the commercial side of vocational education is overdone. Of course the pen is lighter than the hammer, but in the long run it may be that the hammer would prove more lucrative than the pen for those people. Everybody knows that at the moment, no tradesman need be idle in the country. There is plenty of work and good wages available for him. I think that those of us who are members of vocational committees should encourage the manual side of this branch of education more. In that way we would be doing a good day's work for the country. It would mean that more tradesmen would be made available, and we want all that we can get of them at the moment. I know that in Mallow a number of boys who attended the engineering classes succeeded in getting scholarships, and they are now employed either in the beet factories or in some other factories where engineering skill is required. In the case of girls, a number of them who took up domestic economy have got nice positions in hotels and institutions. That is why I suggest that these two sides of vocational education should be encouraged.

The Minister, in the course of his statement, referred to science and art training, and to musical and physical training. I am afraid that physical training is confined to very few schools. I do not think that in County Cork we have got one such class. I would appeal to the Minister to insist on the establishment of such classes. After all, physical training is essential for the development of the youth of the country. It is good from the health point of view. I do not know if I would be in order in referring to the co-ordination of agricultural and vocational education. I believe that the two should go hand in hand.

A very considerable amount is being done in that way by the rural science teachers.

Not as much as I would like.

I would like to hear all about it.

I am glad to learn that, in referring to it, I am not out of order. I hope the Minister will bear the matter in mind when presenting his estimate next year. I am afraid that the services are too disjointed at the moment. In my opinion, agricultural and technical education should go hand in hand. The teaching of rural science is very good, but I should like if that scheme were carried out in a more elaborate way. It should not be outside the province of this Government to do that. When Deputy Derrig was Minister for Education there was, I think, a very genuine effort made by him in the matter of insisting that at least one acre of land should go with each vocational school. If we had three acres it would be better. That was a step in the right direction. It enabled some teaching to be given in horticulture and rural science.

In conclusion, I wish again to pay tribute to the present Minister for the way in which he has faced up in this Bill to what is not a popular thing to do, and that is to increase at the present moment the rate on the unfortunate over-burdened ratepayers of Cork County. They are going down under the weight of the rate. However, I guarantee to the Minister that there will be nobody going to the Douglas road about it. It is a rate that will be paid. I know that some people who will benefit by it will be very vocal about it. I am sorry that some of those reactionaries are not here to-night. They are conspicuous by their absence. I hope that, as a result of this Bill, vocational education will advance very extensively. It is a step in the right direction.

I have no intention of congratulating the Minister on increasing the burden on local ratepayers. I definitely disagree with the last speaker in regard to that. As far as the general principles of the Bill are concerned, there is, of course, a demand all over the country for an extension of these vocational schemes. I do not think, however, that the financing of these extensions should be shifted over on the local authorities. In view of the fact that other branches of education are financed from the Central Fund, there is no reason why this extension of vocational education should not also be financed from the Central Fund. The already over-burdened ratepayers should not be called upon to pay for it.

The tendency on the part of Governments since the State has been established has been to endeavour from time to time to push more and more over on the local authorities. With regard to the question of hospitalisation, the local authorities have to agree to put up a certain contribution before they will get anything from the Central Fund. In the same way, if there is a special grant given for roads, it is made a condition precedent that the local authorities come to the aid of that grant by striking an additional rate. In this Bill we have that principle continued and a further imposition is being put on the local rates. As every Deputy knows, there is an outcry, and I think a justifiable outcry, from the ratepayers in general against the increased demand made yearly for the rates. I think the local rates are getting to saturation point. They are certainly getting to a point where the people, if they go much higher, will not be in a position to meet the demands of the local authorities. In so far as this measure provides that increased finances will have to be provided by local authorities, I do not agree with it. I agree with the case made for the extension of the vocational education system, but I think that, as in other branches of education, it should be solely and wholly financed from the Central Fund.

There is one matter upon which I would like information from the Minister. It is on the records of the House that, in reply to a question about 12 months ago, it was stated that the contribution from the Central Fund to the people of Cork was £4 for £1 for vocational education, in Dublin and Dún Laoghaire £2 for £1, whereas all we get in the country is £1 for £1. I do not know if that is still the position but I understand it is. Perhaps the Minister will tell us if it is.

County Cork gets only £1 for £1., just like Mayo.

What about Cork City?

£4 for £1.

I want to know why the taxpayers of Mayo should contribute £4 for £1 for all the Cork people who have not come to Dublin. I want to know why the taxpayers of Mayo should have to contribute £2 for £1 for the people of Dublin and Dún Laoghaire. Coming from a poor area, a Gaeltacht area, where we have nothing but poverty and emigration, I do not see how this can be justified by any reasonable Deputy. I do not know what case can be made by the Minister for making a grant of £4 for £1 to the residents of the City of Cork and of £2 for every £1 put up by the people of Dublin, whereas the people throughout the country have to pay for that and all they get from the Central Fund is £1 for every £1 they put up.

I think a special case could be made for the Gaeltacht areas and that they should get special treatment on the ground of poverty. That was recognised formerly when there were special grants made, if my memory serves me correctly, for the erection of certain schools in those areas. Whatever case can be made for the Gaeltacht areas on the ground of the Irish language and on the ground of poverty, whatever case can be made for giving the people of Mayo £4 for every £1 the ratepayers put up, I cannot see how any case can be made for the residents of Cork City or Dublin City that they should get this special treatment. I do not know how this system originated. Certainly, it is a system that should be wiped out. I am sure the vocational education committees and the county councils, particularly in the poorer areas, will have a very serious complaint if this system is continued.

So far as the building of vocational schools is concerned, certain progress has been made in the country. So far as the subjects taught in these schools is concerned, a certain amount of progress also has been made. I feel, however, and quite a number of people on vocational committees feel, that so far as giving vocational education a rural bias is concerned the whole scheme has been a dismal failure. It has been a dismal failure from the point of view that the schools, in the main, have been erected in the larger towns and the main centres of population. If we recognise that agriculture is our main and primary industry, then we should try to cater for that industry. One of the most important ways in which that industry can be catered for is by giving an agricultural bias to vocational education and providing facilities in the rural areas for vocational education. It is not necessary in order to do that to erect these colossal schools. In my county we have made a start even in an isolated area by erecting a Nissen hut to give the people of that area a chance. In the different counties there is an objection by the people in the isolated areas to paying for these schools and facilities because their own children never have the opportunity of enjoying the advantages of them. It is useless for instance to tell a man who lives 80 miles from Castelbar that it is a good thing to have vocational education when the nearest school is 80 miles away from him.

If the Minister advises the vocational committees either to lease buildings or to utilise the national schools at night time in these isolated areas and in that way bring the benefits of vocational education to these areas a lot of progress could be made much more quickly than by waiting for the erection of these palatial schools. I recognise that where they have been erected in many cases they have been extended and that, owing to the increase in the number of pupils going to these schools, the accommodation in many cases is limited. But there is always the objection that the benefit of vocational education has been confined in the main to urban areas. There is the further objection that, although rural science is taught in a limited way in these schools, there is not sufficient attention devoted to that matter and farmers' sons and other people in the rural areas have not got the opportunity of acquiring that technical knowledge which they require if they are to compete with the modern methods of agriculture.

In Holland and Denmark, I understand, that three out of every four people engaged in agriculture attend an agricultural college. We cannot hope to compete with these people if our own people have not a chance of getting vocational education so far as the most modern methods of agriculture are concerned. I think it should not be beyond our ingenuity to turn our vocational education system into a type of agricultural training which would enable our people to get that necessary technical knowledge.

The question of raising the school-leaving age has been mentioned. That may give rise to some problems, but I think the principle has been accepted for some time. It was accepted by the Minister's predecessor and nobody on this side of the House, as was suggested by Deputy Lehane, has become suddenly converted overnight to the necessity for raising the school-leaving age. We have accepted it but, unlike the Deputy, we have not accepted the necessity for putting it in abeyance. If the school-leaving age were raised to 16 years, the students during the extra two years could be well catered for under the vocational education system. I think these two years would be much more profitably spent by these children in these vocational education schools or in technical schools. There are many things that they would be ripe to study at that age, particularly crafts to prepare them for future life. There is much very useful technical knowledge, particularly in these days, that children could acquire in the technical schools. I am sure the whole matter is largely a question of finance, particularly in providing the necessary teachers, outside the question of buildings.

The time has come for raising the school-leaving age. In most counties now these children, if the school-leaving age were raised, could be catered for under the existing organisation that the Minister has, with some additions to the teaching staff. The practice has grown up throughout the country, notwithstanding what has been said here, for factories, garages and businesses of that kind to apply to the vocational schools for apprentices when they have vacancies. The practice has also grown up and is now recognised by business and professional men that, when they want typists or clerks, they apply to these schools—and the headmasters of these schools are asked to recommend their students that they are turning out for these positions. That is a good thing and it will develop as the years go on, according as the public become more aware of the efficiency of vocational education throughout the length and breadth of this land. The only thing I regret, speaking generally of the scheme, is that it has not given to the country people, particularly the farmers' sons, the hope that I thought vocational education held for them. I think that is a mistake due to the operation of the scheme and I think the Minister and his advisers could, with profit, study that aspect of the matter particularly in view of all the complaints made here about the flight from the land and so forth. As I have said before, if the problem were tackled in a small way—by the use of national schools, the leasing of buildings or even, where necessary, the erection of temporary structures such as the hut I described—you would meet the local need.

I do not agree with the Deputy who, I understand, stated to-night that many of the vocational schools were white elephants. You may get an occasional one—there is only one in this country that I know of. It is that of a school which was built but which has not been utilised. It happens to be on an island I know well in my own part of the country and that island presents special problems of its own. It was no fault of the committee that provided this school. There were various other local reasons why that school was not a success. Outside of that isolated incident, there is a demand for more and more of these schools throughout the country and for more and more vocational education.

I think it was Deputy Kissane who mentioned here that so far as the cultural side of things was concerned more could be done—particularly as far as the Irish language was concerned and as far as the teaching of singing and music come under the vocational education system. Much can be done where you have a suitable teacher interested in his work for the language— particularly at the night classes in these schools. A large amount, however, depends on the teacher and on the manner of approach. I know one teacher who, during the war, kept crowded classes going night after night simply by his method of approach. He got the classes to learn songs in Irish, and to make translations themselves of modern songs into Irish and to sing them. I should like to tell the Minister that the youth of Ireland are fed up to the back teeth with Jimmy Mo Mhíle a Stór and Eamonn an Chnuic and that the quicker the Department realise that the better. If the Minister and his Department try more of Oscail an Doras, a Risteáird, or some more of these modern songs, and get young people interested in them, much more progress will be made with the language movement. Our teachers, particularly as far as the vocational education side is concerned, must realise that the young people of to-day—due mainly to the influence of the cinema and the radio—are not interested in these matters unless there is a modern slant to them. If they want to sing these modern songs by all means let them sing them, but let them sing them in their own language, namely, the Irish language. By starting classes of this kind or encouraging this kind of work, particularly at night classes in the vocational schools, I think you would get the young people in particular to take a greater interest in the revival of the language than if we continue on the old stultified lines.

In so far as this measure will bring about an extension in vocational education, I welcome it. In so far as it is going to be a further imposition on local ratepayers, I do not agree with it. In principle, I think the whole matter should be reconsidered and that the financing of the matter should come wholly from the Central Fund. In particular, I deplore the discrimination that evidently is the existing practice of the Minister's Department, under which the Cities of Dublin and Cork are put in a special favoured category for themselves at the expense of the taxpayers throughout the length and breadth of this land.

I welcome this measure. I should like to direct the minds of Deputies to one or two points that have already been mentioned. Deputy Moran had something to say about a reduction of the amount contributed by the local authority with a corresponding increase in the grant from the central authority, in connection with vocational education. Naturally, members of vocational education committees and of local authorities feel that it is much nicer and wiser to get the money from the Central Fund than to have to levy the charge on the rates, but I wonder if the Deputies who press for the larger contribution from the State funds think of one very important aspect of the matter—that the more money you get from the Central Fund the more authority will be taken away from the local authority in connection with the spending of it. To my mind, vocational education is one matter in which the local authority and the vocational education committee have a big say. There are no committees with any responsibility in connection with national school education or secondary school education. The local authority have no responsibility and no say in these matters. However, they have quite a considerable say in vocational education. For that reason alone, they should guard the rights they have in that respect jealously. A number of Deputies mentioned that great difficulty would be experienced in expanding vocational education facilities in rural areas. Naturally enough, one of the difficulties mentioned was the big stick of finance. I, in company with other Deputies, believe that whatever money we spend on education and, in particular, on vocational education, is money well spent and that we should not be niggardly with regard to the amount we spend on it. At the same time, I do not think there is any need whatever for elaborate schools or big schools in rural areas for vocational purposes.

The case is made that priority must be given for hospitals, housing, and so on. That, of course, means that vocational schools must take their place on the priority list in respect of money and material. I believe that there is no necessity for elaborate vocational schools. The County Roscommon Vocational Education Committee tackled the problem recently. It might interest Deputies to know what happened there, and the Minister may be encouraged to sanction what has been accomplished in Roscommon. Recently, a parish committee set about building a parish hall. They were a very energetic committee. They collected funds locally and erected a magnificent hall. While the hall was in course of erection, the parish committee considered that it would be possible to provide facilities in the hall for vocational education classes. They put the proposition to the vocational education committee that they would build a special addition to the parish hall, the dimensions of which would be 60 by 40—a very large room in a rural area—and would lease it to the vocational education committee provided they were given a grant of £300 towards the cost of erection of the additional wing.

I think Deputies will agree that that is a very feasible and good suggestion. At the present time the cost of erecting a one-room or two-room school for vocational education purposes in a rural area would be £3,000 to £4,000. In my submission, the addition that was built on to that parish hall is as good as a school that would be erected for £3,000. Yet that addition is being handed over to the vocational education committee for the sum of £300. It is an accomplished fact. The C.E.O. has inspected the additional wing and, according to his opinion, it will make an ideal school. I offer that as a suggestion to be followed wherever an energetic parish committee exists. If they had the incentive of a grant from the vocational education committee towards the erection of an additional wing to the parish hall, it would be a great encouragement to a live-wire parish committee.

I want to stress that in the case I have referred to the additional wing will be completely in the hands of the vocational education committee. They will be solely responsible for it and nobody else will be allowed into it. That means that the equipment that will be there for vocational education purposes will be safe. When we reach the stage when sufficient teachers will be available for all the rural areas, day classes could be conducted there. That is one way in which the cost of the erection of vocational schools could be reduced.

There is another suggestion I would like to make. In areas in rural Ireland where the population has dwindled to such an extent that one school can do the work that was formerly done by two schools, I see no reason why all the pupils in the area could not be catered for in one school and the other school handed over to the committee for vocational education purposes. If one or two such schools are available and there is an addition to a parish hall in a particular part of the county, there is no reason why a suitable system and programme could not be drawn up by the C.E.O. for various classes in vocational education.

That brings me straight away to the most important point in this connection, that is, the availability of teachers. No matter what provision is made in this Bill for expenditure on vocational education, it is useless unless there are sufficient teachers. I am convinced that there will not be sufficient teachers to fill the demand for a number of years at the present rate of progress. I think a Deputy suggested that it might be wise to have compulsion in connection with vocational education. I do not know whether he was referring to rural or urban areas but, from my experience of rural areas, there is no need whatever for the word "compulsion" to be used nowadays with regard to vocational education. There is a terrific demand from every parish that I know of, at any rate, in the West, for these facilities. The vocational education committee in County Roscommon has been inundated with applications for classes in the various subjects and the committee is not in a position to satisfy the demand, with the result that parents who are anxious that their children should have the opportunity of getting this form of education are very disappointed. As people have awakened to the immense advantages of vocational education, the Minister and whatever Government is in power should make every effort to meet that demand. The Minister should examine the possibility of getting a large number of trained teachers in the shortest possible time because, unless we have the teachers to cater for the demand, a large number of people who are anxious for this type of education for their children will be disillusioned and dissatisfied.

Tar éis bheith ag éisteacht leis an díospóireacht, tá cúpla smaoineamh ar an gceist seo, gairm-oideachas, ba mhaith liom a nochtadh. Tá an scéim seo ar siúl le fiche blian agus is féidir linn anois é scrúdú.

Ní maith liom an chaoi in ar féidir leis na scoláirí atá sna scoileanna náisiúnta na scoileanna sin d'fhágaint agus dul isteach sna scoileanna gairm-oideachais. Tá líon scoláirí na scoileanna náisiúnta ag tuitim. Is é mo thuairim nach ceart ligint do na scoláirí dul isteach sna scoileanna gairm-oideachais sar a sroicheann siad 14 bliana d'aois. Ní ceart ligint don C.E.O. ná don té atá i bhfeighil na scoile gairm-oideachais scoláirí a thógaint as an scoil náisiúnta agus a tharraingt isteach sa scoil gairm-oideachais. Molaimse go gcuirfí stop leis an rud sin i n-áiteacha ina bhfuil an nós sin ar siúl.

Maidir le scoileanna nua a chur ar bun, ní maith liom go mbeadh scoil gairm-oideachais ar gach cros-bhóthar. Bhí Teachtaí ag cur síos an tráthnóna seo ar "elephantí bána." Ní dóigh liom gur ceart scoileanna gairm-oideachais a thógaint cúpla míle óna chéile. I gCo. na hIar-Mhidhe téann na scoláirí go dtí an scoil ar a rothair. Tá rothar ag gach scoláire. Sin é an faisiún. An rud céanna i gConamara. Bhí a lán Teachtaí anseo ag cainnt mar gheall ar scoileanna nua. 'Séard a mholfainn don Aire ná ligint do na daoine in aon áit a bhfuil na daoine ag lorg scoile nua a thaispeáint don choiste agus don Aire go bhfuil ranganna maithe ar siúl ar dtúis. Cuir i gcás, i Killucan, bíonn ranganna ar siúl i Halla Naomh Seosamh agus ní féidir na scoláirí go léir a chur ann. Tá gá sa cheantar sin le scoil nua. Lig do gach áit a thaispeáint go bhfuil gá le scoil nua ann. Cuirtear ranganna ar bun ar dtúis agus ligtear do na daoine a thaispéaint go bhfuilid i ndáiríribh mar gheall ar scéim gairm-oideachais agus ansin ligtear dóibh scoil a chur ar bun.

Do dhein an tAire tagairt do chúrsaí speisialta a bhí ar siúl faoi stiúradh Coistí Gairm-Oideachais i gCo. Chorcaighe agus faoí chomhoibriú na mban-rialta i gClochar an Driséain. Nach féidir linn ranganna i gcócaireacht agus i nobair snáthaide a chur ar bun faoi stiúradh na mban-rialta faoi chúram na gCoistí Gairm-Oideachais? Ansin do bheadh múinteoirí againn i gcónaí agus is é mo thuairim go sábhálfar airgead.

Bhí Teachtaí ag cur síos ar halla. Molaimse go gcuirfí ar bun halla tionóil, cosúil leis an halla tionóil atáthar chun a thógaint sa Mhuileann Cearr, halla beag a bhead i n-aice le gach scoil nó mar chuid de gach scoil ar fud na tíre.

As regards the question of halls, I suggest there should be an assembly hall attached to every vocational school in which not alone drama will be taught, but in which dances could be performed, and it could be used for overflow classes. There, too, orchestral music could be developed, and that is a great necessity in our time.

Now, as regards teaching in these schools, the work that is being done in the vocational schools is getting more difficult every day. As I said in Irish, more and more pupils are coming long distances on bicycles. They are getting qualified for high-class domestic work and they are getting very good jobs, not alone in this country but wherever they go. These classes are increasing.

In certain schools there are no shorthand and typewriting classes, and they are a necessity. There is one overriding consideration for the committees, and that is the cost of typewriters. You want at least a dozen typewriters in a class to have it effective. Even that would be a very limited number. But each typewriter costs at least £50, and that is a very big sum. It would mean an outlay of £500 or £600 immediately, and that would debar a committee from going ahead with the shorthand and typewriting classes.

That brings me to another point. There has always been great laxity in the Department in insisting on proper qualifications for teachers in commercial subjects, particularly in shorthand and typewriting. In some cases teachers are put there by the committee following a good canvass. When they get there they get a year or two years and in some cases three years to qualify in shorthand and typewriting, and that is not fair to the pupils who go there to learn those subjects. As we advance, the ordinary small shopkeeper in the country is availing of the use of a shorthand typist. These become a greater necessity to the community, and it is an affliction to the ratepayers and the parents and the pupils when a committee puts in a teacher who is only qualifying to teach these subjects. Such teachers never can turn out good pupils. The Minister should investigate this matter and put down a hard and fast rule that, with all their other qualifications, they must be qualified immediately to teach shorthand and typewriting.

The question of new schools should be examined in conjunction with town planning and rural development. I am not going to introduce extraneous matters now, I hope, but I do think the new buildings should be in accordance with modern town planning and rural development. What is running in my mind is that in our locality we need a new dispensary, a library and other things. If in the one building we could include a vocational school and a library, if we could have something equivalent to a municipal building in which various Departments would be co-ordinated, it would be well worth while. It is deserving of examination, anyway. For instance, it would be ideal to have a library, a vocational school and, let us say, an assembly hall concentrated in the one structure. That type of thing would make life worth while in rural parts. You would in that way brighten the small town and village.

Another thing that calls for attention by the Minister and the Department is that, in addition to giving an acre with a rural school in which rural science is taught, there should be a playing-field provided for the students. There should be a playing-field attached to national schools wherever land is divided in certain areas. As a matter of policy there should be a playing-field got wherever possible for every vocational school.

I agree with Deputy Moran that the burden on the rates is going to be big. I will submit this, that vocational education is developing as the years go on. We are only at the beginning of it. The burden is going to be greater as the years roll on. You will get to the point when the rates will no longer be able to bear the burden. We know that there will be a bigger demand from the agricultural committees in the coming year. In addition to that, there will be this demand. I do not know what is going on behind the scenes between the Minister and the vocational teachers. He announced only one penny to provide in the coming year for vocational education in County Westmeath. Later on he hopes to get a few pence more. If the rumours we hear are correct, instead of the three farthings in the £ for the provision of the new school in Mullingar, that penny will disappear in order to give an increase to the teachers. Where are we then?

The case has been made by Deputy Moran for a bigger State contribution and I second Deputy Moran in that. Last February the Minister for Justice went down to Athlone and, talking from Mount Olympus, he told the managers to reduce the rates. Then we find that there is no one keener on vocational education than he is for his native county—Longford. "Ní féidir leis an ngobadán an dá thráigh do fhreastal"—you cannot have your cake and eat it. The Minister for Justice need not contend for a reduction in the rates and at the same time want schools all over County Longford.

I do not subscribe to the point of view put forward from my own benches and on the other side of the House that counties should be bunched together. I do not think any Government will ever succeed in obliterating the identities of our counties. It is no good telling us that the boundaries are a formal construction, that they were put there by the British, and so on. There are too many traditions associated with our counties to make any such attempt at amalgamation a success. The Leitrim men are quite right when they resist any attempt to be absorbed into Sligo, just as Longford would be quite right in resisting any attempt to be absorbed by Westmeath. I indicated my views on this the other day when I spoke on the County Management Bill. I said it was not possible for a man to do his duty successfully if he were acting as county manager for two different counties. Neither would it be possible to handle this vexed question of vocational education when dealing simultaneously with the smallholders in North County Longford, who have to work and strive, and the next day with the people in the southern end of the county along Ballymahon who are differently circumstanced in life and who have not the same keenness in their approach to this matter as the North Longford men would have whose children must go out and earn their bread. The man in the southern end of the county can equip his children with a better education while the children of those in the northern end must keep their noses to the grindstone. I take North and South Longford because I hate contrasting counties; but what I have said in connection with those two areas is equally true where counties are concerned. If there were the one C.E.O. over North and South Longford and Westmeath no effective work would be done. The people in Longford would not be satisfied. Neither would the people in Westmeath. We should get out of our head this idea of amalgamating counties. It is the duty of the State to come to the aid of Connemara, Leitrim and Donegal and wherever else State aid is needed.

I welcome this Bill because it will have the effect of advancing vocational education. I have made certain suggestions with regard to economy in teaching.

I have only recently become acquainted with the work of our vocational and technical schools and the experience I have gained has shown me how valuable this system of education is to the people. It is filling a tremendous gap. Excellent work is being done. I think we are all agreed that anything that can be done to further the development of this system should be done. There are a number of little matters to which one might draw attention but I think most of them will right themselves in a very short time.

For a long period the people who were pushing this form of education and endeavouring to develop it were fighting against heavy odds. The situation has changed and to-day every section of the community appreciates the value of it and endeavours to get some practical benefit from it. We are in the happy position in Dublin that we have excellent staffs and excellent committees in charge of the schools. One of our troubles is that we have not sufficient accommodation. One suggestion made recently, which might help to solve that problem, is that the sexes should be segregated. I hope the Minister will resist that.

I have not heard anything about it.

Apparently, it is in the infancy stage and the idea is rather infantile, too. We have an excellent committee in charge of vocational education in Dublin. We have a magnificent staff and the city council is anxious that the necessary facilities in regard to buildings and accommodation would be made available. A question naturally arises in regard to the responsibility for payment and naturally there will be a very substantial volume of opinion in favour of transferring the financial burden from the local authorities to the taxpayer. A lot can be said on both sides. It is probably unfair that ratepayers should carry a heavy burden, because the community as a whole benefits from this education, and quite a number might advocate the idea of transferring the burden entirely to the State, to taxation. Every section of the community can benefit and the community as a whole is benefiting. That being so, a very strong case could be made for transferring the entire liability from the local rates to the Minister for Finance.

One thing I would be very jealous about and very strong in regard to is that the control should remain with local authorities. If they are to retain the control, which is vital, they must have some considerable say in financing it.

Deputy Kissane made some suggestions regarding typewriters and equipment. That is something which might be considered not only in Dublin but elsewhere. It will be considered in Dublin in the near future and there might be some central stores in which such equipment and machines used in the schools could be kept and repaired when necessary. Under the very stringent regulations regarding finance and provision of typewriters and so on, if there is any breakdown during a course it may affect the course; while by having some central organisation to look after equipment those upsets would be minimised. I feel that that development is inevitable. Probably it would be easy enough to do it in the city. Some form of regional or central stores might be necessary in regard to schools right through the country.

This form of education has undoubtedly justified itself and is making a tremendous contribution to the efficiency of all our different organisations, trade and commerce, right through the country. My experience of teachers is that so long as they are getting pupils who are prepared to work, the hours do not matter to them at all; and they are prepared to work at all hours if they get results. That being the case the teachers in those schools deserve all the protection we can give them.

I would like to thank the Minister for the very informative and interesting review of the system which he gave in asking the House to give this Bill a Second Reading. We hear a lot about it, we have seen it in our own time developing, but it was very necessary to have a complete history of the system. An examination of the Minister's review will show the wonderful strides that have been made in a few years. Everybody wishes the system well and everyone who contributes in this debate on the subject will be pressing for what he considers to be necessary improvements. I was very much impressed by my practical association with the system in Dublin. I see a keenness there on the part of everyone connected with the system. Excellent work is being done and everything we can do here to further that work should be done. I think we can say to all the committees throughout the country and to the teachers that in improving and developing the system they will have the full support of this Parliament.

In common with other Deputies, I would like to congratulate the Minister on the comprehensive and informative statement he has given the House in regard to the growth and history of vocational education. Undoubtedly, technical and vocational education has advanced very considerably in the past 30 or 40 years, but we should all make up our minds that it must advance still further. We have got to set before us the target that no boy or girl must be expected to face the battle of life with nothing more than a primary school education. That means that in every area throughout the length and breadth of the country facilities must be provided for continuation and vocational education. If that is recognised the problem of course becomes one of providing sufficient teachers and accommodation.

With regard to teachers I have only one comment to make and that is that we ought to go all out to secure the best possible teachers in the profession. I am not against teachers being paid a reasonable remuneration. They have a very difficult and important task to perform, and one which requires a very high fund of education as well as very high character. I was struck by the figure given by the Minister of the number of hours of work in the vocational schools. I think he mentioned 25 hours a week. While it might be ample for the pupils attending the school it seems to be a rather short week for a teacher. We have had a considerable amount of agitation in this House regarding the hours worked in our fundamental industry, agriculture, and there seems to be a very sharp contrast between the short hours of vocational teachers and the long hours in the agricultural industry. If we have good teachers and pay them well we should get a little more than 25 hours' work from them, and I do not think they would object, particularly those of them who are young and enthusiastic and anxious to give of their best to this learned and important profession.

With regard to accommodation, Deputy Derrig made one very profound observation when he said that the rural population of this country is scattered. It would not be a rural population if it were not. In the last 25 or 30 years we have tidied up a good deal of our rural population into small centres, but since the rural population is still scattered there must be some sort of vocational school in every chapel area throughout rural Ireland and that raises a very important question with regard to school accommodation. We have built a number of rural schools but they can cater only for a very small radius. It is impossible to expect boys and girls of 14 or 15 to travel more than about five or six miles although I know that there are children who travel a much greater distance. While it seems to me that we must have some sort of school building in every chapel area throughout rural Ireland that does not imply building an up-to-date vocational school. It is enough to say that every chapel area requires a parish hall and sooner or later they must be provided. A well-constructed parish hall could serve the dual purpose of catering for the entertainment of the adult population and at the same time providing accommodation for rural science and technical classes.

Provided by the rates?

No, definitely I would not be in favour of the provision of parish halls either out of rates or general taxation.

Where would you get the money?

The only answer I can make is that I live in a rural parish which is very sparsely populated and which as far as money is concerned is relatively poor but in that parish through the energetic leadership of the clergy a parish hall was provided recently with a floor space of over 2,700 feet. The building is up to date, well equipped and very well constructed. It was built with the contributions of the people of the area but mainly by their voluntary labour.

It has a good dance floor, I suppose?

It has, and a very elaborate stage which will ensure that cultural entertainment can be provided in the form of drama and music. Deputy Giles seemed to hint that this hall was to be financed mainly by its utilisation for dancing. I want to make it clear that it is a parochial hall and will be used only on a very small scale for dancing. It will be used mainly for cultural entertainment and will be available for all types of agricultural and vocational classes.

I think it is essential that we should link vocational education with the training of our people to be to a certain extent self-sufficient and selfreliant. Utter and complete dependence upon the State or the local authorities for everything which our people in rural areas require would be detrimental to the whole advancement of those people. The means I have mentioned is to my mind a better solution to the problem of providing accommodation in our rural areas than the building of a lean-to or shed or even a wing to our national schools. I think that a parish hall if properly constructed would be suitable for this purpose. It would be available almost every day of the week and perhaps some nights also for classes.

In the development of vocational education, I believe that we must concentrate a little more on evening and night classes. It may be difficult in some places to obtain teachers for them, but we must aim at achieving them, because nothing is more demoralising, I think, for our young people, particularly in rural areas, than to have very little opportunity for recreation and cultural advancement. The night classes should not be confined exclusively to the teaching of utilitarian subjects, but should concentrate to a very considerable extent on such subjects as singing, drama, music and education in history, and particularly local history, thus giving our growing generation a good national and self-respecting outlook. What I am suggesting is the integration of vocational education with voluntary effort in all our rural areas. At some of the night classes, the instruction might be given voluntarily, just as in the great days of the Gaelic League teachers volunteered to give their services, and did a tremendous amount of national work. The same spirit should be aroused again, and we should not be completely and absolutely dependent on the cold dead hand of the Civil Service to provide for every need of our people.

Just as we should seek to integrate vocational education with rural local effort, so also we should seek to link up more closely our primary and vocational education systems. Vocational education should begin in the primary schools, that is to say, our national teachers should devote some time at least to technical and vocational subjects, and, in addition, travelling teachers should teach these subjects in the national schools for perhaps one or two hours per week, so that from perhaps the age of 12 or 13 up to the ages of 15 or 16, children would get the specialised training which is essential for them in after life. I believe that vocational education and technical education will never be a complete success until the leaving certificate of the technical school entitles a pupil to take up work in whatever profession he has been trained for. If a boy attends a carpentry class, he should be able to obtain a certificate from that school which would enable him to work in that trade, just the same as a boy who may have served his apprenticeship. The status and importance of the certificate of efficiency in these schools should be raised and recognised and there should be no shortage of building workers, for example, in this country, having regard to the length of time technical schools have been in operation. Any boy in any part of the country should be able to pass out of the technical school and obtain employment as a fully qualified carpenter or skilled worker in any of the skilled trades.

That is one essential need which vocational education should fill and a need which, if filled, would lend more importance to this type of education. I believe that the people generally are availing to a very large extent of these schools, so far as it is possible for them to do so, wherever the schools are within a reasonable distance of their homes. There is, of course, the difficulty which has been referred to by some Deputies of the agricultural labourer or small farmer who finds it hard to avoid putting his son into employment as soon as he reaches the age of 14 years. Where there is a large family, the father and mother usually feel that they cannot afford to keep a boy out of employment after he reaches the present school-leaving age. That difficulty will always exist so long as the people in rural Ireland enjoy or have to endure a very low standard of income; but if the value of the training given in these schools is raised as I have indicated, if it is possible for a boy attending a vocational school to become a skilled worker and to earn his wages within a few years, his parents, I am sure, as they have always done, will be prepared to make a sacrifice in order to ensure that he will get that opportunity.

I come now to the rather vexed question of financing vocational education. It seems to be rather an anomaly that while primary education is financed exclusively out of general taxation, vocational education is financed partly from central funds and partly out of local rates. There is an even greater anomaly in the fact that the people in Cork City have the advantage of receiving a contribution of £3 for every £1 they put up, whereas in the other counties the contribution from the Central Fund is only £1 for £1. I do not know why Cork should be specially favoured in this way. The people of Cork City may have some special merit which entitles them to this privilege, but, in my opinion, what is considered essential for Cork should also be available for the rest of the country. At any rate, it would not be too much to ask that the rate of contribution from the Central Fund should be raised somewhat.

I am satisfied that there are quite a number of advantages in having some part of the contribution from local funds. There is the advantage of being entitled to a share in the direction and management of vocational education, and in that connection I think local control should be moved a step further. Just as I have suggested that in every parish we ought to have our vocational schools, we ought to have in every parish a local vocational committee, taking some part in the management of that school and contributing every possible assistance to its success, because it is the enthusiasm and support of the local people in every area that will ensure the success of vocational education.

Debate adjourned.
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