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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 2 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 7

Social Welfare (Insurance) (No. 2) Bill, 1950—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. It is hardly necessary for me to say that the Bill which I am now submitting for the approval of the Dáil follows closely on lines of the White Paper on social security issued from my Department in October, 1949. Since the Paper was published I have heard various comments on the scheme and have read others. As was to be expected, some of the comments were favourable and others unfavourable. There have been, too, a number of unfriendly, I might even say, hostile critics. I have no objection to criticism and, in fact, I welcome it, particularly if it is sound and constructive. It is then doubly welcome. Little of the adverse criticism which the scheme has received warrants serious attention but, at the same time, I think it well to deal with some of the criticism.

Amongst the arguments it has been advanced that the scheme should have been fashioned on vocational lines. To that argument I would reply that we are not living in the clouds. We are dealing with an urgent practical problem, not with one that can wait until all ancillary problems of vocationalism have been solved.

It has also been said by some of the critics that the scheme has a tendency to destroy the solidarity of family life by relieving the head of the household of his responsibilities towards his family. Those critics say that the danger to family life of which they speak can be avoided by the provision of a living wage. My answer to those critics is that there would, of course, be no necessity for a scheme of social security if a living wage were a reality. But my ideas of a living wage differ from the ideas of some of those gentlemen who speak so glibly about it. My conception of a living wage is that it would be such as would provide a decent house and maintenance for a man and his family. It should be sufficient to enable him to meet the hazards to which working men and women are subject, to ensure that in periods of adversity there will be either a reserve of funds or an income to the home which, while possibly not enough to preserve the same standards as obtained when full wages were coming in, should, nevertheless, help to soften the worst effects of cessation of wages. If the critics will consult the Papal Encyclicals they will find that I am only repeating what has already been said there. But the day of the living wage has not yet arrived and, as practical people, we have to deal with the situation as it exists to-day. It will, I think, be generally accepted that where an individual is unable by his own efforts to make provision against economic hazards it is the duty of the State to come to his assistance, and by help and encouragement enable him to face the future with some degree of confidence.

The sick or unemployed man, the widow with helpless children, the aged worker, no longer able to hold his place in industry, cannot afford to wait until society produces a pattern of life where it would not be necessary to make provision, while working, against the hazards that affect them. Sickness and unemployment, particularly where prolonged, have a devastating effect in the homes of many of our people and often involve the sale or pawning of household effects which have been assembled, often by struggle and sacrifice, during periods of employment. It is at times like these that the ordinary worker realises how slender are his resources and how helpless he would be if he had to face these hazards unaided.

Recognition of these facts inspired the introduction of legislation 40 years ago, to provide some sustenance for workers against the risks mentioned. It is because these risks are still present that it is necessary to make similar provision to-day, and essential also that the benefits provided be augmented and brought into line with present-day needs. The views of theorists, living in cuckoo-land, many provide material for academic discussion or amusement but their airy views provide little consolation for the sick or unemployed man, nor do they shelter the widow or orphan from the economic blizzard which follows the death of the father or husband.

To see the question of social security in its proper perspective it is necessary to glance at the historical background. The Workmen's Compensation Act of 1897 may, perhaps, be accepted as the first social legislation which incorporated the ideas generally accepted to-day. That Act, while it does not bear comparison with present Acts, was the first Act to which the principle of social insurance was applied, but beyond that, it is of little relevance to the Bill at present before the House. At this juncture I might be permitted to mention that it is my intention to remedy the shortcomings of the existing Workmen's Compensation Acts and to bring them into line with the present Bill.

The National Insurance Act of 1911 may be regarded as the origin of social legislation as we know it to-day. It dealt with national health and unemployment insurance. On the national health side, insurance was compulsory for practically all persons over the age of 16 years employed under a contract of service. In the case of manual workers the Act applied, irrespective of the rate of remuneration, but in the case of non-manual workers it applied only where the remuneration. The salary more than £160 per annum. The salary limit of £160 was raised to £250 in 1920 and to £500 in 1947, changes which did little more than reflect changes in the value of money.

On the unemployment side, the scope of the Act was restricted to a small number of organised trades such as the building trade and shipbuilding. The unemployment part of the 1911 Act was repealed in 1920, when a separate Act dealing only with unemployment insurance was passed. The scope of the Unemployment Insurance Act was extended by the 1920 Act and put on the same basis as national health insurance, with the important exclusion of persons employed in agriculture and private domestic service. The system of financing by means of contributions from the insured person, the employer and the State, had its origin in the 1911 Act. The same system of contribution is being followed in the present Bill. The contributions and benefits under the existing schemes have been increased from time to time and other changes have been made, but it may be accepted that the general framework of the 1911 Act remains unaltered and in the normal process of progress and development is being used as the framework of the new scheme.

It will be seen, therefore, that to suggest that the new scheme is a step on the road towards totalitarianism is completely unjustified and wholly misleading. Such a suggestion, if meant seriously, should have been made in 1911 and totalitarianism, as we understand it, had not even been heard of at that time.

At this stage I would like to direct attention to the fact that apart from extensions and increases of existing benefits, the chief benefits of the new scheme are retirement pensions and death grants. In so far as the existing benefits are concerned, the moral philosophers have accepted them without question since the principle of State insurance was first applied to this country in 1911. Those who object to the new scheme must be inspired either by economic considerations or, on ethical grounds, by the extension of the benefits in the form of retirement pensions and death grants. Do they suggest that we have been living in sin for the past 40 years because we provided benefit for the sick and disabled? In this connection, I would venture to suggest that if it is unmoral for working men to have retirement pensions, the provision of pensions for certain other sections of the community is equally unmoral. No intelligent person, however, accepts that view. It should not be forgotten either that the worker pays his weekly contribution towards the cost of his retirement pension. All those who get pensions as a result of employment are not required to do so.

The code of social legislation which exists to-day is not a co-ordinated one. We have, in fact, a haphazard and disjointed pattern of social legislation. It suffers from a variety of defects and, in particular, it suffers from the fact that it is neither comprehensive in its concept nor in its application and administration. We have a number of independent Acts of Parliament dealing with different aspects of the same problem. There is no adequate co-ordination and indeed in some instances no co-ordination whatever between one Act and another. They require, where records are necessary, separate records for each scheme. We have also separate stamps for different types of benefit; separate offices from which the various schemes are administered; we have no uniform pattern running through the existing Acts; and we have various rates of benefit applied to closely comparable contingencies. As well as lacking co-ordination, all those schemes are, in my view, inadequate in their coverage and in the extent of the benefits which they provide. Our problem to-day is to integrate and extend the existing insurance schemes so as to weave them into one coherent whole, and, in the process, to simplify administration by such methods as providing one stamp and one record. In the light of the changed circumstances existing to-day we must, in addition, provide better benefits if we are to bring our social legislation into line with modern conditions.

The first question to be considered in connection with the new scheme is the question of finance and the most suitable method of financing the scheme. It is possible in theory to adopt various systems, and by utilising any particular one of them to produce a scheme which might be called a social security scheme. It would be possible, for instance, to evolve a scheme by which all the money required is raised by direct taxation and to set aside a certain sum to provide the cost of a social security scheme or heavy additional taxes could be imposed on certain commodities and ear-marked for financing the scheme. A third method, following generally on our present pattern, is to adopt a scheme whereby the funds are found by requiring the worker to pay, by requiring the employer to pay, and by asking the State to make a contribution in the same way as the worker or the employer.

There would be inherent dangers in the first or second methods I have outlined. Either method would be novel in this country and always open to the danger that changing revenues might create a situation in which the money available would be inadequate for the purpose of meeting charges or might be assigned to meet some other demand regarded at the time as more pressing.

Our people are familiar with the contributory type of arrangement, and to attempt in present circumstances to meet the cost of a scheme by such means as an all-in tax, portion of which would be ear-marked for social security purposes, would be entering into uncharted seas. I therefore decided, in the light of all the circumstances, that it was better to finance the proposed scheme on traditional lines. This enables the worker to pay his portion of the contribution in the knowledge that he is a potential beneficiary, the employer to pay because he should have a deep interest in the welfare of his workers, and the State, acting as the good father of the weakest and most helpless sections of the community, is also enabled to make contributions because of the over-all national advantages which social security confers. This arrangement creates a pool of money which has a definite statutory existence created for the specific purpose of financing social security measures, and for that reason it is most unlikely that it will be exposed to the hazards inherent in the other methods to which I have referred.

The fact that we have decided to collect contributions to finance the scheme from workers, from employers and from the Government is born out of a realisation of the conditions which exist in this country to-day. It may be interesting here, particularly in the light of the amendment which is being moved by the Opposition, to refer to their views in other days, and to their approach to this whole problem. In 1947 a conference took place in this country between representatives of the Department of Social Welfare and representatives of the British Ministry of National Insurance. That was in November, 1947, a few months before the change of Government. At that conference, the secretary to the Department of Social Welfare was instructed by the then Minister for Social Welfare to inform the British representatives that, in his approach to the problem of social security, the Minister had decided that he did not, at that time, intend to cover within the scope of a comprehensive Bill any but the employed classes: in other words, that he did not propose to cover any classes of persons in this country unless they were employed for wages or salary under a contract of service. Deputies will bear that fact in mind in appraising the value of the amendment which is to be moved to this Bill. That, however, is not the only evidence. Speaking in this House on 27th March, 1947, at column 442, Deputy Dr. Ryan, then Minister for Social Welfare, said:—

"I am very much personally in favour of a contributory scheme for all these various items, but, again, it would be a difficult problem to draw up a contributory scheme for the greater part of the population because a big part of the population, as Deputies know, are not working for wages. It is not easy to devise a contributory scheme where people are not wage earners because it is not so easy to collect the contributions that would be due from week to week."

Later, on 28th March, 1947, the then Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Dr. Ryan, used these words when speaking at columns 553-4:—

"Deputy Murphy says he thinks we could bring 90 per cent. of the people into a contributory scheme. I do not think so. At least, I do not think it is easy to bring people into a contributory scheme unless they are wage earners.... But, to return to the point, it is not easy to collect contributions unless from wage earners. I say that as a fact, and if Deputy Murphy, or anybody else, can show me I am wrong I will be delighted, because I should like to see the small farmers and small shopkeepers—between them a very big class—included. It is calculated that there must be nearly 250,000 between these two classes—250,000 who would need provision for their old age. It is a pity we cannot have a comprehensive scheme for them, and, if Deputy Murphy or anybody else can show me how it can be done, I will be very delighted to have it considered for this contributory scheme. If we cannot include them in a contributory scheme we will have to consider what can be done otherwise. That is all."

You can see from that that in March, 1947, prizes were being offered to anybody who could suggest the manner in which non-wage or non-salaryearning classes could be brought into a contributory scheme.

Again at column 554, on 28th March, 1947, Deputy Dr. Ryan, Minister for Social Welfare said:—

"Deputy Murphy said that we need more courageous proposals. I quite agree with him on that and I am afraid that when this comprehensive scheme comes along some Deputies may lose their courage, because there is no doubt that if we provide even for the aged, as Deputies would like to see them provided for, on a contributory basis, it is going to mean a very big contribution from the worker and, as I say, the courage that will be necessary to face that issue when the time arrives will be fairly substantial."

Having regard to the terms of the amendment, it is easy to see where the faulty courage now is. Some people have discovered now that riding two horses is much more convenient than riding one. However, the public will put their own appraisal on the amendment in the light of the speeches of people who could have done the things they now want to do when in office but declined to do them for the very good reasons quoted here.

Again we have Deputy Dr. Ryan at column 553, on the 28th March, 1947, saying:

"We are working towards what has been referred to by every speaker— a comprehensive scheme—but it will be, I am afraid, 12 months or so before it can be presented. I am also very glad to see that every speaker appears to be in favour of a contributory scheme of insurance by which, so far as we can arrange it, people will build up their own insurance fund and insure themselves against sickness, unemployment and so on."

The Minister at the time was distinctly pleased that so many Deputies favoured the contributory scheme which he then favoured and which is enshrined in this Bill.

Again at 2003-4 on the 12th March, 1947. Deputy Dr. Ryan in reply to an interjection by Deputy Pattison said:

"Deputies will have to keep in mind, of course, that to give a very much better old age pension and to give it at a lower age, say, 65, and also to improve these other schemes like national health and unemployment assistance will mean a very big contribution whenever the scheme comes along. It will not be a onesided matter. The contribution will have to be increased considerably."

That did not then deter Deputy Dr. Ryan from proceeding with the scheme, but he was warning people that a heavy contribution would be necessary and appealing to them that superb courage was necessary to meet the impact of the increased contributions. Now, their appeals to courage have been abandoned.

Again Deputy Dr. Ryan, speaking at column 824 on the 22nd October, 1947, said:—

"Certain people will be left who will have to get non-contributory pensions—old age pensions, widows' pensions and non-contributory unemployment benefit in the way of unemployment assistance or whatever it may be."

I quoted these extracts from the point of view of showing that in our approach to this whole matter we were confronted with the stark realism that, in present circumstances, you have, at all events at this stage, to think of a scheme which would cover the employed classes, that is any and every man and woman employed under a contract of service for wages or salary. Our predecessors recognised the same thing. They could scarcely fail to do it in any realistic approach to the problem set in our pattern of life. I do not quarrel with their views on this matter. I think Deputy Dr. Ryan was right in these views. What I do quarrel with is the somersaulting in the approach which has produced this amendment. However, I am satisfied with having put these extracts on record and given the House an opportunity of seeing that there is some truth in the saying that "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". That will drawn on the Deputy when he reads the extracts.

The State contribution in the present Bill is in two parts, a weekly contribution equal to that payable by employer and employee, and responsibility for meeting any deficit which may arise. This deficit would be most likely to arise from the fact that the scheme is applied without selectivity, that is to say, persons are admitted to the scheme even though it is clear that because of age or some other reason they are more likely to draw more from the fund than they will pay in. By virtue of underwriting their liability, the State gives the advantage to persons entering at the lowest age of obtaining full benefits in respect of their contributions, and at the same time permits those entering at later ages to get equal benefits without paying a higher rate of contribution.

In connection with any deficit on the scheme, it is explained in the White Paper that a deficit could be met either on a long-term basis or on a short-term basis by making good the deficiency each year with quinquennial reviews. Modern thought is in favour of a short-term basis and that view has been accepted for the purposes of this Bill.

In the drafting of the scheme it was borne in mind that the worker would know he had a statutory right to benefits because he had contributed towards them. It is felt that this fact tends to give him a sense of dignity and independence, a feeling all the time that the fund to which he is contributing is a perpetual fund which will always be available to pay benefits. I think it is better from the worker's point of view that he should assume an independent status and contribute towards the benefits which are being provided. It will be obvious to the workers that they themselves cannot make provision for all eventualities and for that reason, alone, if for no other, there is an obligation to contribute towards the provision of insurance against the unavoidable contingencies of life, an obligation on the worker to pay contributions whilst able to earn so that these benefits may be available for him when he is no longer able to do so.

In examining this question, we approached it from the standpoint of conditions here. We considered first the practicability of embracing in the scheme self-employed classes as well as those who work for wages. There were inherent difficulties in the position as it affected the farmer and self-employed classes.

Let us consider first the case of the farmer. If he were to be included he would have to pay the full contribution, which in the case of the wage earner can be divided between the employer and the employee. Since the small farmer does not work regularly for wages it was obviously extremely difficult to expect that he would pay contributions each week with the regularity of the wage or salary earner. This is particularly obvious if related to the pattern of life of the small farmer in this country. Nobody who approaches that aspect of the problem realistically will fail to see the difficulties. Apart from the question of contributions, there is also the special difficulty of covering a farmer or self-employed person for sickness or unemployment benefit. In many cases they are not necessarily required to give their full time to their self-employed activities. Loss of pay is nearly always involved where the wage earner becomes sick or unemployed, but it does not always follow that the income of a self-employed person disappears when he becomes sick or unemployed. While dealing with this aspect of the matter it is, perhaps, advisable to point out that even if the small farmer is not included in the new scheme he is still eligible for benefit under the old age pensions legislation. His widow and children can still qualify for widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, and in the case of the very small farmer whose means do not exceed the prescribed limit, he can, when unemployed, qualify for unemployment assistance. It will be seen, therefore, that for the three types of hazard against which he would most desire coverage, i.e., old age, death and unemployment, he could get these benefits under our existing legislation without paying any contribution whatever. When it is realised that 75 per cent. of the £7,000,000 paid each year in old age pensions is drawn in rural areas it will be seen that the old age pensions are of more value to the agricultural community than to townspeople. We have endeavoured in Sections 66 and 82 of the Bill to meet to some extent at least the needs of the small farmer.

By virtue of Section 66, farmer members of co-operative societies will be able to come within the scheme. It is intended that such farmers will be brought in on the same basis as voluntary contributors, in other words, that they will be eligible for all the benefits except those of disability and unemployment.

Section 82 provides that a farmer, the poor law valuation of whose land does not exceed £30, may transfer his holding to a son or daughter, secure in the knowledge that if he applies for an old age pension the holding will not be taken into account in the assessment of his means. Heretofore, if a farmer transferred his holding for the purpose of getting the pension his means were assessed on the same basis as if he had not made the transfer. This acted as a deterrent and in many cases farmers retained their farms, even when unable to work them, while their sons left rather than stay on in insecurity. It is calculated that about 86 per cent. of farmers are living on holdings which could be transferred under this section. It is expected that the amendment being made by Section 82 will mean an increased charge on the Exchequer of between £150,000 and £200,000.

We may proceed now to look at the scheme in more detail. One of its main features is that it brings into insurance against unemployment for the first time, agricultural workers, forestry workers and domestic servants. Heretofore such persons had been excluded from the scope of unemployment insurance.

The benefits to be provided under the scheme cover a wide range. They include disability benefit, which will take the place of sickness benefit and disablement benefit; unemployment benefit, widows' and orphans' pensions, retirement pensions payable to men at 65 and to women at 60. There will be an increased maternity benefit from £2 to £5, and there will be a special maternity allowance prior to and subsequent to childbirth. Further, a new benefit in the event of death is payable. This benefit will range from £6 in the case of a child under three to £20 in the case of a person over 18 years of age.

All these benefits are dovetailed into each other. They will be administered by one Department and will involve only one contribution. There will be only one record card. They will confrom to an overall plan in the matter of supervision and general evolution.

As the House is aware, not every person is paid the same wage or salary and, because of that fact, their domestic and financial positions, are necessarily different. We are faced, therefore, with the problem of deciding whether the same contribution should be required from a lowly-paid worker as from a more highly-paid one and, if so, whether it would be wise and expedient to pay the same benefits. We thought, at first, that this matter might be examined from the standpoint of the vocations of the persons concerned to see whether certain groups of workers, called by their vocations, might be given a lower rate of contribution and a lower rate of benefit. We decided, however, that it would be undesirable to have any exclusions on the basis of vocations because even within one vocation you can have a number of wage rates. In any case, it is not easy to describe vocations in law. For example, a man who milks cows in a field to-day is regarded as an agricultural worker and excluded from the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. But if he puts the bucket of milk into a milkcan and goes round the town and sells the milk he is a non-agricultural worker and comes under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. We finally decided that the best way of dealing with the question was to work on the basis of the wages received. This, we thought, was the best method of determining classifications.

It is, therefore, provided that there will be two classes of persons with two classes of contributions. Those earning over £3 10s. per week will pay a higher rate of contribution, that is, they will pay 3/6 per week for themselves if they are males, and the employer will pay the same amount. If they are females they will pay 2/2 and the employer will pay the same amount. But if they are in the lower wage class, then the man will only pay 2/6 or 1/6, the women 1/2 or 8d., and the employer will pay in that case 3/6 or 4/6 for the man and 2/2 or 2/8 for the woman—in other words, he does not benefit from employing persons at a lower rate of wages. It is only in the cases of disability benefit and unemployment benefit that the lower rate of benefit will be paid to the low wage group. The other benefits will be the same for all contributors.

You may ask why the lower wage group was devised. The answer to that is in two parts—(1) because we felt it would probably be a hardship to require workers to pay the higher rate of contribution having regard to their wage rate, and (2) because we thought that, at the outset, it might be risky, without previous experience of the operations of the scheme, to pay in benefit a sum of money amounting to what a person was receiving while working.

These were the two reasons why the lower wage group was devised, and I think the considerations which prompted us to approach the problem in that way will be obvious to the House. We considered that it would not be advisable to go further than we have done until we had experience and that it was more prudent to travel slowly in the beginning. I think farseeing people will say that it is better to give the scheme a trial on the basis of the two groups and, if experience shows it desirable, we can change over to a completely uniform scheme. In all the circumstances, we felt that it was desirable to begin with the twofold provision of covering specially the man and woman whose wages were below the 70/- level and, at the same time, guarding against possibilities which, if developed on a large scale, might undermine the basis of the scheme. Even though those workers in receipt of less than 70/- per week will pay a lower rate of contribution, they will, as I have already said, receive the same rates of benefit in respect of widows' and orphans' pensions, maternity allowance, retirement pension or death grant, as those who pay the higher rates of contribution. We have come down definitely on the side of having at the outset a high wage group and a low wage group with the understanding that revision can always be made if experience shows this to be prudent. This is not the last Social Welfare Bill, and we can make changes in the light of experience, and when we are satisfied that it is wise and prudent to do so.

The contributions payable under the Bill will include contributions which are being paid at present under our various Acts of Parliament for insurance purposes. If we take for example the ordinary insured worker, the person who is insured for unemployment insurance, national health insurance and widows' and orphans' pensions purposes, his present contribution is 1/11 per week. His contribution under the new scheme will be 3/6 per week, an increase of 1/7. When it is remembered that, in 1949, no less than £44,000,000, or one-eighth of the national income in that year, was spent on drink, tobacco and amusements, and that the amount so spent doubled since 1938, it will hardly be argued that an increase of 1/7 a week is a heavy imposition. Mention of the national income brings to mind the fact that the cost of social security under this scheme in the first year of its existence will amount to approximately 2.87 per cent. of the national income for 1949. This 2.87 per cent. can be broken up as follows:—.92 per cent. of the employees' contribution, 1.13 per cent. of the employers' contribution, and .82 per cent. representing the State's contribution. In view of the wider coverage provided for the worker and the substantially improved benefits being made available, it should be readily recognised that the small additional contribution being asked is a good investment. I would like to reiterate at this point that there is an obligation on every worker to provide for his family against risks from which he cannot protect them out of his own resources; 1/7 is surely not too high a cost to fulfil these high moral obligations.

I would like the House to consider the position as it is to-day. At present an unemployed man with a wife and two children receives from the employment exchange 22/6 a week for himself, 7/6 for his wife and 2/6 for each child. In other words, he receives a total of 35/- per week. Under the new scheme, if he is unemployed he will receive 24/- a week for himself, 12/- for his wife and 7/- for each of two children, making a total of 50/- per week, as against 35/- payable at present.

To-day, if a man with a wife and two children is sick and unable to work, he receives national health insurance benefit of 22/6 per week. If the illness extends over six months, his weekly benefit drops to 15/-.

Under the new scheme, he will receive 50/- per week. There will be no drop after six months. The 50/- per week will continue irrespective of the duration of his illness, so that the worker who becomes ill and is unable, because of the chronic character of his disability, to resume his employment, is assured that this higher rate of benefit will continue so long as he is unable to work.

To-day there is no contributory retirement pension under our social security legislation. There is, of course, a non-contributory old age pension subject to a means test. The introduction of contributory retirement pensions will have the important effect that in future any person who qualifies for retirement pension will obtain it without having to undergo a means test. Under the new scheme when a man reaches 65 years of age and ceases to be employed, he will be entitled to a retirement pension of 24/- a week for himself and 12/- for his wife, making a total of 36/- per week. This will be payable at 65 years of age even though the wife may be under that age. The working spinster, when she reaches 60 years of age, will be entitled in the future to a pension at the rate of 24/- per week.

Maternity benefit which to-day is £2 will be increased under the new scheme to £5 and, in the case of a woman who is working and insurable under the scheme, a maternity allowance will be paid for six weeks before childbirth and six weeks after childbirth, if she ceases to be employed. Further, if the woman is married and is not working and her husband is insured, a special allowance known as an attendance allowance, will be payable for four weeks after the birth of the child. This special allowance will be payable in addition to the grant of £5.

I should like to say a word about the retirement pensions. I think they will be of considerable value to workers whose employers, for a variety of reasons, do not provide pensions for them. I think also they will be of considerable value even where pensions are provided, since, by reason of the fact that there is no means test for retirement pensions, the 24/- per week can be paid in addition to any other income.

Under the new scheme, the discrimination against agricultural workers in the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme, is being removed and it is proposed that the widow of an agricultural worker will get the same rate of widows' and orphans' pension as the widow of any other person. The benefits provided by the former National Health Insurance Society in the form of hospital benefits, dental benefits, optical benefits and certain surgical benefits, will continue under the scheme: continue in all events until such time as a wider scheme of medical benefits, in the national sense, is evolved.

It may be appropriate at this stage to refer to the position of existing old age and blind pensioners. On taking office, this Government quickly demonstrated its desire to improve the lot of this section of the community and, through the medium of the Social Welfare Act, 1948, old age and blind pensions were substantially increased and the means test modified. Those reforms, which affected 160,000 pensioners, did much to improve their position and were warmly welcomed. The improvements referred to cost over £2,000,000 per year; it represented a sound investment in humanity. The Government has had under consideration for some time past, the question of a further improvement in old age and blind pensions and I am happy to avail of this opportunity to announce that the Government has decided to promote legislation to increase old age and blind pensions by a further 2/6 per week. Each pensioner will, in due course, receive this weekly increase, and over 160,000 pensioners will benefit thereby.

Now vote against that.

The maximum rate of old age pension will be raised to 20/- per week. The cost of this increase will amount to approximately £1,050,000 in a full year.

In addition, the Government has decided to modify the means test still further, and the effect of the modification will mean that 15,000 pensioners will receive an increase of 5/- per week. At present a person who is in receipt of an income exceeding £1 per week (£52 per year) is not eligible for an old age pension. It is proposed, however, to raise this income limit to 25/- per week (£65 per year) and thus permit persons in receipt of an income between 20/- and 25/- per week to receive a partial pension of 5/- per week.

The Government has further decided that the special allowances paid under the Military Services Pensions Acts to members of the Old I.R.A., and disability pensions payable to ex-members of the Defence Forces, where they do not exceed £80 per annum, will not in future be reckonable as means against the applicant for an old age or blind pension. Let me say that if we take the figures of persons at present in receipt of Army disability pensions, that provision will exclude 50 per cent. of them; and if we take those in receipt of special allowances it will exclude 90 per cent. of such persons. It is also proposed to exclude from the computation of means any sum of money not exceeding £1 per week which an applicant for an old age or blind pension receives from a charitable organisation. The additional cost of these improvements will, it is estimated, amount to approximately £250,000 per annum. The effect of the foregoing decisions will mean that approximately 147,000 persons will in future receive the full old age or blind pension of £1 per week. I feel sure the House will warmly approve the far-reaching and generous proposals which I have indicated. The necessary amendments to give legislative effect to them will be submitted on the Committee Stage of the Bill.

And if they want to go to the country on that, we will go.

The Minister must get a hearing. Deputies should cease interrupting.

He is getting a good hearing.

The House will, of course, appreciate the heavy expenditure entailed in effecting the reforms referred to and will realise that it will be necessary to raise the amounts to be made available by means of taxation, particulars of which will be indicated by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement. I feel certain, however, that no good or enlightened citizen will cavil at the payment of whatever tax may be involved when it is used for the purpose of brightening the lives of the weakest, the most deserving sections of our community.

Such, then, are the details of the new scheme of social security and of the improved old age pension legislation. I have told the House of the problems which confronted us; of the efforts made to surmount the difficulties and the considerations which influenced us in our approach. Unthinking critics imagine they have discovered many imperfections, but I submit that our proposals represent a creditable effort to provide social security for our people. It will hardly be maintained that we in this country should refuse to provide for our workers a reasonable from of social security. World trends indicate that we cannot afford to lag behind other countries in this or in other spheres and that it would be folly to introduce a scheme which would not bear comparison with those in operation elsewhere. It would be degrading to the nation if we did not show clearly that we have at least as high a sense of human and spiritual values as countries which have already provided comprehensive social welfare schemes.

As a Christian nation we must give practical expression to our Christianity. Surely it would not be suggested that it is a Christian attitude to allow unemployed men or women, or widows and orphans, to beg from door to door, nor would it be the Christian attitude to pay such low rates of benefit as bear no relation to the requirements of the time. The absence of social security is a challenge to our social conscience, a challenge to our concepts of social justice. We have here an opportunity of showing whether we desire a code of legislation which attempts to give a measure of social justice to the creators of wealth within the nation or whether we want to slip back to a concept of human values in which men and women are merely hands in a factory to be counted by numbers and not by their personalities, to be merely cogs in a machine. I submit in short that we owe it to our own traditions to work out a code of social legislation for those who work for the nation, one which will provide them with security which they cannot provide for themselves.

It is not sufficient for us to denounce Communism and yet to permit the growth of conditions in which Communism thrives. Communism has made greatest progress where social ills were allowed to flourish unchecked. This scheme which we have evolved seeks to remove social injustice and social inequalities. It represents an effort to build up a social code which will tend towards the promotion of harmony, industrial and commercial peace.

To the workers who are affected by this scheme I would say that it provides for them a coverage which their own resources would not enable them to provide. I would suggest to them that they ought not spend money on luxuries and at the same time endeavour to evade their responsibility for contributing under the scheme. This scheme will enable them to provide for themselves and their families. They should, and I believe they will gladly embrace the opportunity.

To the employers I would like to say that apart from their moral responsibilities for the good of those they employ, responsibilities now universally admitted, there is also the consideration even at a material level that this scheme represents for them a good investment. If employers consider this scheme fairly they will realise that a small contribution for the welfare of their workers will help to create conditions here in keeping with their human and spiritual concepts, and tend towards the eradication of conditions in which industrial strife and totalitarianism flourish. A moment's reflection should convince and enlighten the employer of the benefits, even from a narrow standpoint of social amity.

For the worker this scheme will promote habits of thrift. It will give him a sense of independence, a sense of value that from his own resources, slender though they may be, he is paying contributions for future benefits to himself, his wife and his children, and for his wife and children when he is no longer there to provide for them. And if there should be any worker who doubts the benefits of a scheme of this kind I would like to quote one example. If you take the case of a man and a woman aged 30 years, who are married and have two children aged four years and one year. If the husband dies the widow will be entitled under this new scheme to a widow's pension, without a means test, of 38/- per week. In order to get the same benefit from an insurance company, it would be necessary for the widow to bring in a sum of almost £2,000, put it down on the counter, and then the insurance company would give her 38/- per week for the same period as that 38/- per week will be paid as a widow's pension under the scheme. So that, even from an investment point of view, you can see the return yielded if death should claim the breadwinner and leave a wife and two children unprovided for. There are not many people in this country who can afford to put down £2,000 with an insurance company to buy an annuity of 38/- per week. But the fact that they have not £2,000 to give to an insurance company is no reason why the wife and children should starve for the rest of their lives.

I have told you of the scheme and of the proposals for its implementation. But if the scheme is to be an outstanding success we require not only regular employment but greater opportunities for employment and a greatly expanded production. The measure of our production to-day determines the standard of living for each and every one of us. A nation lives on what it produces because there is nothing else on which it can live. If, therefore, we can expand employment and production, not only will the over-all cost of the scheme be lighter because hazards like unemployment may not have to be provided for to the same extent as at present but it may be possible to pay higher benefits while the same rates of contribution are maintained.

The Government has already taken steps to expand the opportunities for employment, to expand the volume of production in industry and agriculture, and to enrich the whole national estate by undertaking large-scale schemes of public works dealing with land reclamation, drainage, the provision of housing, large-scale schemes of afforestation, schemes to provide hospitals, sanatoria, schools, the exploitation of our peat deposits and the carrying of electricity into the rural areas throughout the country. All these activities proceeding at the same time, one dovetailing into the other, should provide and will provide wider opportunities for employment for our people. The wider opportunities will represent stability in employment, will help to enrich the fund from which these benefits are provided and will ensure that there is no danger to the basis on which the fund has been reared.

At the present time employment has reached its highest level and the number of unemployed is the lowest since this State was founded, and it appears to me that this is an opportune time to introduce a scheme of this character.

I believe that this scheme will make a substantial contribution to the elimination of social discord and lay the basis for co-operation from all sections of our people and that it will help to strengthen the economic foundations of the State itself.

For any person to regard this scheme as an inducement to easy living in the future would be fatal. I sincerely hope that the scheme will be utilised as a springboard to greater efforts to expand production, and by this I do not mean to employ the worker for longer hours or take more out of the worker in human fatigue. Expanded production can be achieved by the utilisation of better methods, better machines and more efficient management, and, broadly speaking, by the adaptation of industry so as to ensure the maximum co-operation between those who sell their labour and those who provide the capital for industrial production. I claim nothing for this Bill except that it represents a genuine effort to produce the best, the most satisfactory, the most comprehensive scheme possible, having regard to the pattern of life in Ireland, the resources of the nation and the ability of the workers and employers to pay. We may hear it said in a smug, complacent way that this scheme aims at the welfare State. This scheme provides benefit for a sick man and his wife and children, unemployment benefit for the man who is out of work, a pension for widows and orphans, death benefits if death stalks through the home, and a retirement pension for men and women who have served the nation through the spring, summer and autumn of their lives. If doing these things represents a step towards the welfare State, then I, for one, proudly plead guilty to the charge. The provision of these benefits represents the fulfilment of its natural duty by a Christian State and it would be unworthy of us if we were to shirk the responsibility which high concepts of human values demand.

I commend this Bill to the House and I hope it will prove to be a tree under which the needy sections of our people will find shelter and shade in days of adversity.

I move:—

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following: "Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill because (1) it does not provide a comprehensive or balanced scheme covering the needs of all sections of the community, and (2) it would impose greatly increased burdens on both employees and employers whilst providing benefits little better in many cases than those now available.

I put down this amendment on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party in an endeavour to get a better scheme of social insurance, and I think it is the duty of every Party in the House, even though we have to face the scathing remarks of the Minister, to say what they think is the best scheme of social insurance. I am approaching this scheme in that way. The Minister took three years to produce this Bill. He gave it very mature consideration and we may take it that it is, in his opinion, the best that can be produced in the circumstances. It is, in my opinion, as good as can be produced in the circumstances for certain sections, but this Party believes that there are other sections who are not covered by the Bill—at least who were not covered nearly as well yesterday as they are to-day, because the Minister has announced one amelioration for certain sections in the form of increased old age pensions.

Maybe two.

The Minister was not interrupted and other Deputies have the same right to a hearing.

I only spoke once while the Minister was talking, and if Labour and other Deputies are anxious for a good scheme of social welfare and not Party advantage, let them listen. The Minister set out to give us an historical review of social welfare in this country, but, to my astonishment, he stopped at 1921. Why did he stop at that year? I can only suggest that it was to save his colleagues on the Fine Gael benches from embarrassment and to avoid giving a review of the long list of social reforms brought in by Fianna Fáil. However, I start by saying that a Bill is necessary. The Minister quoted me at length—not, I am quite sure, consciously to my advantage, although I think that when I am finished, it will be seen by Deputies that he did not quote me to my disadvantage either—as saying that, when this new Department was set up by the Fianna Fáil Government, it was intended to bring in a comprehensive scheme, so that we are all agreed that a comprehensive scheme is necessary. Let us accept that and go ahead and see what is the best scheme that can be produced.

When that Department was set up, two tasks were imposed upon it. One was the co-ordination of the existing schemes, and, generally speaking, the Minister is doing that in this Bill, although we may have some discussion on Committee Stage to show that, in the matter of details, we would like to see something different. It is obvious that one stamp for the insured person put on one card, one inspector dealing with that insured person and all such questions of co-ordination should be dealt with. The second task of the Department was the investigation of the whole field of social welfare to find out whether a balanced and comprehensive scheme was possible within our means and what that scheme should be. When I was Minister, I commenced on that task, and the Minister now, so far as he is concerned, has completed it. I do not want to wrong or to misquote the Minister. He says that this will not be the last Bill. Of course, it will not —we all know that. He has produced his comprehensive scheme of social welfare. We on this side favour a scheme. I do not say that we favour this scheme and we put down this amendment so that we might have an opportunity of making suggestions with regard to major changes in this Bill. We are not dealing with minor matters which should be dealt with on Committee Stage.

I want to make it clear at this stage, too, that I agree with the Minister that many people—I do not say all, because I daresay some critics are sincere in their views—criticise social welfare from rather a narrow viewpoint. They point to what they call the slacker who will not work, but social welfare goes very much further than merely dealing with unemployment. There are all these other schemes of old age pensions, which now will be called retiring allowances, widows' and orphans' pensions, sickness benefit, children's allowances and the minor items like maternity benefit, death grants and marriage allowances. They are all part of a social welfare scheme and there is no great objection to any of them, except the unemployment benefit. I think it a pity that we should have a prejudice against the whole scheme because, in the belief of certain people, there are men drawing unemployment benefit who do not rightly deserve to draw it. That may be true because, no matter how strict the supervision or how well the inspection is carried out, it will always be possible for some people to evade the regulations; but the great majority of people drawing unemployment benefit under the present law need it and deserve it. Let us get these things clear before we go on with this discussion. As far as I am concerned, we are in favour of a good comprehensive scheme of social welfare. We may not agree with other Parties as to what a good scheme is and we intend to point out, as far as we can, how we disagree with the scheme moved by the Minister to-day.

I agree with certain parts of this Bill. I agree, first of all, that it is right to have equal benefits for sickness and unemployment—there is no reason whatever why they should be different—but, as the Minister explained, all our various schemes came bit by bit, unrelated to each other. In that way, there were different conditions and different benefits under various schemes. The idea of co-ordinating them was to get a level benefit wherever that would be justified.

It is right that not only should there be equal benefits for the person concerned but also for the dependents, the wife and children. As the Minister pointed out, there was benefit for the wife and children in the case of unemployment but not in the case of sickness. That was a rather peculiar position and, indeed, an anomalous one; and it has been made right. Also, the position up to this has been that when a person is ill for over six months his rate of benefit goes down. No one will argue that a sick man can afford to live more cheaply after six months' illness than he could in the beginning; so it is only logical that the full sickness benefit should remain as long as the man is entitled to draw benefit.

These, therefore, are the principles with which we all can agree. I should make it clear that, while we agree with these principles and while we agree generally with the principles for qualification for benefits—they also are brought into harmony—we may have certain criticisms to make on the Committee Stage, if the Bill reaches that Stage in the Dáil. I also agree that a widow's pension should be the same whether her husband was an agricultural worker or a city worker, whether she lives in the city or country. That is embodied in the Bill.

There are certain points, then, on which I am a bit doubtful. There is the introduction of this new idea in our code, although it is a feature of the code of social insurance in other, countries, of having more than one class of insured person. In this case, we have a class of worker earning £3 10s. 0d. or more and then a class earning less that £3 10s. 0d. According to the class they fall into, their contributions and benefits are regulated. At this stage I am not doing more than questioning the wisdom of that. The Minister may have more detailed arguments when we come to that stage, that would convince us on this side that the provision is acceptable. I see certain objections to it and think it will require very full consideration before it can be accepted. The Minister gave two arguments in favour. He said that the lower-paid worker is not able to make the contribution that would be taken from the better-paid man—that is true—and he said that if the lower-paid man gets a benefit which comes near his ordinary wages, it destroys the urge for employment. That is true also and we must keep those two points in mind. Against that, I think there will be great administrative trouble in administering a scheme of this kind.

The Minister, I am sure, had certain principles in mind. These principles have been laid down by the International Labour Office and particularly at the International Labour Conference in Philadelphia in 1944. There were four principles laid down there which appear to me to be admirable, if we could live up to them. We can live up to some of them, undoubtedly, but we may not find it so easy in regard to others.

"Benefits should replace lost earnings with due regard to family responsibilities."

In this Bill the family responsibility is recognised in the benefits, so we are meeting that principle to that extent. Certain Deputies may argue that we are not replacing lost earnings. It is not expected that we should replace them completely. In fact, one of the other principles laid down by the International Labour Office makes it quite plain that that would not be advisable. It is a matter of opinion as to whether we are replacing lost earnings sufficiently in this Bill. As far as I am concerned, I am quite prepared to accept the level of benefits laid down by the Minister, as he says, on the present conditions. If the value of money goes down, or if we become a very wealthy nation, more wealthy than we are now, these points can be reconsidered.

"The benefits must be as high as practicable but not so high as to destroy the urge for working."

The Minister has kept that principle in mind and one of the reasons he gave for having these two classes was that the benefit to the lowly-paid worker might destroy the urge for working. We can consider that in detail at another stage and see whether the level of benefit is fair in that respect.

"The benefit must not be so high as to put too onerous a levy on the employed person."

We will have a lot to say about that later on. In my opinion, the Minister has not met the requirements of the International Labour Office in that respect, as he has made the levy far too high on certain classes of the population. If the Minister is satisfied that the benefit payable to the more highly paid wage-earner is more than, let us say, the subsistence, then he is quite justified in giving a lower benefit to the other class. If the Minister is prepared to state that he believes he is giving more than subsistence allowance in these various benefits, we would be more satisfied that he is justified in having these two classes.

I believe that this conference laid down certain principles that would be very difficult to follow or live up to. It might be too much to ask the Minister to express that opinion, but that is my opinion at any rate. What I am afraid of, however, with regard to this proposal of the Minister's is that you will have interminable disputes. I think that every Deputy will realise that where a man has moved a few times across the border line, where he works for a wage of £3 10s. for a while, then drops below that line, then goes back again, and that happens two or three times before he goes to look for benefit there will be a good deal of trouble. That is one of the things that should be avoided as far as possible in any scheme of social insurance.

One of the good principles which the International Labour Conference laid down was that any scheme should be simple and capable of being understood by the insured person. That is a very good principle and one which should be kept in mind by any Minister for Social Welfare, and in fact by any Deputy who is dealing with social welfare, because if you have a simple scheme which the insured person can understand and he knows exactly what he must pay as well as exactly what he must receive it will make things very easy and will also ensure that people will get what they are entitled to get. I would like to make it clear before I leave this point that I am not condemning this proposal, but I would like to get more reasons from the Minister for the proposal which I am sure he will be in a position to give at another time.

The International Labour Conference laid down certain principles which are very difficult to follow. One of them is that a scheme should cover all employed persons including the self-employed, and should be financed by contributions from the employee, the employer and the State. I do not think it is possible to adopt that, and I agree with the Minister on the point that it is not possible to collect contributions from the self-employed. The Minister quoted me at the beginning, and if he goes over his quotations I think he will see that that is one of the difficulties which I saw in a comprehensive scheme of social insurance.

The Deputy speaks with self-approval.

I do. That is one of the difficulties but it does not make the scheme impossible as the Minister thinks. Not only is it not feasible but in my opinion it is impossible to collect contributions from the self-employed so that both the Minister and I at this stage are leaving the International Labour Conference and saying that we cannot agree any further with the conference in this point. That cannot be done in this country anyway and I suppose it would apply to any other country too.

The self-employed small farmer was mentioned by the Minister. He may enjoy a fair standard of living. Many Deputies who know conditions in-rural areas know that if you happen to enter a small farmer's house when he is having a meal that it is a good meal, just as good probably as the meal of what he would consider a highly-paid artisan in the City of Dublin. He is reasonably well dressed and pays his way so that his standard of living is not so bad. But one of the great difficulties the small farmer has is the want of ready cash. He always finds it hard to have ready cash because his standard of living is possible owing to the fact that he is able to produce a great deal of the food he requires while the amount of cash he has is small. He requires it to pay the things that must be paid in cash like rent, rates, groceries and a few items of that sort. It would be very difficult for that man, I believe, to pay 7/- a week social insurance or even 6/- a week which is the level laid down for agricultural labourers because he would have to pay both the employer's and the employee's portion. It would be more difficult still, however, if he had a son helping him or perhaps a son and a daughter or two sons. It would become so difficult that you would reach an impossibility. I think that the Minister, therefore, is perfectly right in coming to the conclusion that you cannot collect contributions from the self-employed.

We have dealt with the small farmer and that may be the most difficult case. You also have small shopkeepers. It would not be so hard to take the money off them if you had somebody to collect it. Fishermen might also be difficult to deal with and then you have self-employed tradesmen who live in the country.

The cost of collection would be very high and would make it rather uneconomic to go on with the idea. The only satisfactory way of collecting for social insurance as far as I can see is through the employer. I do not think you will find any other way of doing it where you can collect reasonably economically. Every Party then is agreed I think that we will not look for contributions from the self-employed.

The suggestion was made by certain people that we should allow the self-employed in on a voluntary basis. I would not agree with that either I must say because there is no doubt whatever that if voluntary contributors are allowed to come in it is the least desirable from the financial point of view who will come in. In other words, you will have men coming in who are fairly delicate and believe they will have sickness which they would like to have covered. You will have men coming in who are afraid perhaps that they may leave a widow behind them in the near future. You cannot run a social insurance scheme on bad lives or on lives which are bad on the average. After all, a social insurance scheme can only be run on the assumption that you are getting every category of people in, good and bad, by compulsion. Therefore, I believe that the voluntary scheme proposed by some people would not work. The Minister I know has not brought it into the Bill and I would be inclined to reject the idea if it were proposed that it should be added.

I am not referring mind—and I want to make this clear—to the voluntary contributors whom the Minister is bringing into the scheme. He is bringing in only voluntary contributors who were once insured. That is all right. If a person who was insured and paid contributions for 15 or 20 years becomes perhaps a small employer himself he may like to keep in benefit either for the provision of widow's pension or of retirement allowance.

While I say that it is not possible to collect contributions from the self-employed and while I say that I do not think they should be admitted as voluntary contributors, we must remember at the same time that they need cover for certain benefits. Again, I agree with the Minister that it is difficult and almost impossible to give them certain benefits, but there is no doubt that they need the benefits in respect of widows' and orphans' pensions and retiring allowances. The fact that we cannot collect contributions from these people should not, I think, make us adopt the non-possumus attitude of the Minister of “no contributions, no benefits”. I am talking now about the comprehensive scheme. I know that they have benefits in another way.

I should like to talk about this question of contributions as a method of financing social insurance as compared to taxation. I believe that certain of the schemes should be done through contributions and that certain of them should be done through taxation. In that respect I am not departing very much from what the position is. I do not agree at all with the arguments put up by the Minister in support of the contributory system. I think he makes three points in its favour: (1) that it gives self-respect to the contributor: he knows he is paying for his own benefit and therefore it gives him self-respect; (2) that the fact that he pays his own contributions gives him a legal claim to these benefits—a claim that, as the Minister himself said on another occasion, the Legislature cannot take from him; and (3) the fact that there is not a means test.

Although I am not saying that we should do away with the contributory system, we should be clear on the arguments for and against that system and we should be clear on the arguments for and against taxation. As far as self-respect goes, what great difference can it make to any man if he says: "I am paying my taxes and, as a result, I am entitled to a retiring pension or my wife, should she become a widow, will be entitled to a pension." Is there not just as much self-respect in that statement as there is in that of a man who can say that he will receive benefit because he stamps his card? Personally, I cannot see any difference. There may be, through tradition, if you like, a certain prejudice in regard to certain benefits but I think that that prejudice has largely disappeared, and rightly so. If a man pays his taxes and is entitled by law to a certain benefit, there is no reason why he should not draw it or feel ashamed about drawing it. I do not think there is much in the argument of the Minister that it gives the man self-respect to pay his contribution any more than the paying of his taxes.

The Minister's second point is that, because he pays his contribution, it is like a contract and that the Legislature cannot break that contract or cannot take benefits from him. The Minister is not talking legally there. He is giving a strong argument, if you like, that there is no Legislature that would do it. The Legislature, as we know, can do it. As a matter of fact the Minister is doing it in this Bill. He is taking certain rights from certain people. Therefore, he has destroyed his own argument in respect of certain classes in this Bill. For instance, as every Deputy here knows, there are certain workers who are contributing to the widows' pension scheme in this country. In certain cases—I am not saying in all cases—a worker, if he died now would leave his widow with a pension from the State of perhaps £3 per week and in many cases over 50/- per week. But if that man lives until this Bill becomes law and then dies, his widow will get only 38/-. He is paying for a certain benefit for which he has contracted, according to the Minister under previous legislation, and by this Bill his benefits are going to be lessened. Therefore, the Minister himself is contradicting the argument that the Legislature cannot take benefits from a man for which he has paid contributions.

Similarly in regard to the disability benefits of a single man. If he is sick now he gets 22/6, and under the new conditions he will get only 18/-. The same also applies in regard to unemployment. It may be argued that it affects only the few. That is true. But surely, if a contract can be broken for a few it can be broken for everybody. I am not saying that the Minister is wrong in cutting off some of those extremes in the various classes and in trying to bring everything into more unity, but what I say is that the Minister has destroyed his own argument in regard to rights of contract to certain people.

With regard to the means test, the Oireachtas can at any time abolish it if they want to. As Deputies of this House are aware, it was done in respect of the children's allowances. There is no reason why the Minister could not, if he wished, bring in a Bill at any moment to abolish the means test completely in respect of old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions.

I do not think there is any great substance in the Minister's arguments in favour of the contributory system, and there are objections which would lead me, at any rate, to resist, as far as I could, any increase in contributions. I am not advocating that we should abolish contributions as they are—and I shall give reasons for that, too. However, I think that the arguments against the contributory system would make us hesitate before increasing the contributions on either the employer or the employee. It is an unfair system as between one employee and another; it is an unfair system as between one employer and another. Every Deputy knows as well as I do that there are certain employees who are well organised and well off. They are better paid and they have a better chance of succeeding in compelling their employers to pay the increased contribution than the lowly paid workers who are not organised.

The lowly paid people find it hard to get a job at all and when they get one they must stick to it. Such a person has no great chance of getting his employer to pay the contribution for him —because he finds it hard to keep in his present job. He has to pay, whereas the highly paid employee has a much better chance of getting the employer to pay the contribution for him. In the case of the employers, I think it is even more unfair. It is perfectly obvious, in the case of employers, that some can pass it on and that others cannot. Again, the case is in favour of the well-off employers. They are wealthy because they can pass everything on—they can pass it on to the consumer. The small employers, on the other hand, who are trying to make ends meet, cannot pass it on. Take, for instance, a builder who is making up his estimate for a house. He puts on the extra cost and nobody would think that there was anything strange about that. Take the farmer. What does he do? He cannot say to the buyer at the fair: "I am now paying a few shillings extra in stamps and therefore I must get more for the bullock." The buyer will say: "That is nothing to me", and he does not give anything extra. Similarly, the farmer will not get any more for his milk or his wheat, and so forth. Therefore, he must pay the increase out of his slender profits. It is obvious, then, that the system is unfair as between one employee and another and as between one employer and another. Therefore, we should be very chary about increasing the contributions above what they are at the moment. In that respect I should like to refer to what the Minister quoted about the putting up of contributions. The Minister anticipated us. He put up the contributions two years ago. The first thing he did after he came into office was to put up the contributions without putting up the benefits. He put up the contributions to pay for the benefits we had already granted; the contributions have gone up since Fianna Fáil went out of office.

You voted for the Bill.

I wonder did we?

Of course you did.

I did not interrupt the Minister while he was speaking. I shall say this to the Minister: we voted for no provision increasing the contributions and I am quite sure of that. The Minister will not deny that we did give increased benefits out of taxation in 1947 so if I am advocating more taxation I am consistent and this Party is consistent——

And the country cannot afford it!

We gave increased benefits out of taxation and when the Minister came in, all he did was to put up the contributions. He left the benefits as they were and it is only now, after three years, that he proposes to increase them. I want everybody here to consider carefully this question of contributions which is one of the big points in the Bill. No Minister for Social Welfare will come before the House with a Bill of this kind and say: "You are going to get any money you want to finance it." The whole trouble is the cost and we, therefore, must consider this whole question of the contributory system. That is why I am stressing the point as to the unfairness of the system as between one employee and another and one employer and another. I said that certain employers can pass this on, so it is the consumer who is going to pay in such cases. There is not very much difference in the long run between the consumer and the taxpayer and a person might as well pay in direct taxes as pay in the cost of articles which he buys. In paying by taxation, he would have a better idea of where he stood and he would have the statement of the Minister for Finance beforehand that he was going to pay so much on certain articles, but if he has to pay as a consumer, he would not know quite so well where he stood. It is a fairer system to pay in the form of taxation in every way.

This Bill is going to impose a big burden on the country. Some Deputies may think that a few shillings a week do not mean anything, but I suggest that if a few shillings are multiplied by three or four in a week, and if one has to meet that expense every week of the year, it amounts to a considerable amount of money at the end of the year. Take the moderate sized farmer, or I should rather say the small farmer, who employs three men in the week. He certainly is not a big farmer and his extra cost in respect of contributions will come to £20 16s. If the Labour Deputies over there carry out their promise to the agricultural labourers to make the farmer pay for all the increased contributions, he will have to pay £13 13s. in respect of his employees' contributions. That means that he will have to pay a total of £34 9s. That is an individual case. There are many cases like that in the country, not only of small farmers but of small employers generally, and remember the small farmer is the man who cannot pass it on. He must pay it out of his own pocket. A sum of £34 9s. to a small farmer is a frightfully heavy addition to his expenses. I think that anybody will admit that it would be a much fairer system if most of that or all of that were taken up by taxation.

There is a certain amount of unreality about this whole question. The Minister argues in favour of the contributory system and then the members of his Party go down the country, saying to members of their union: "We shall make the employer pay." Let us have it one way or the other. Let the Minister say straight out that, as far as he is concerned they will make the employer pay the contributions and then the employer can add it to consumption and let the consumer pay it because that is what it is going to amount to, if the Labour Deputies get their way; or let the Minister say that he deplores the action of his followers in going round the country saying: "Social welfare will not cost you anything" when talking to employees. I should like the Minister to say straightforwardly and honestly, whether he is in favour of contributions or not or whether he is in favour only of contributions by the employers and he can then say to his followers: "Go down to these fellows and say you will have to pay it."

You told a different story down the country.

The Deputy will have his opportunity of speaking about Fianna Fáil. He spends a lot of time talking about Fianna Fáil. I am talking about the Labour Party. There are arguments in favour of a contributory system and I want to tell the House what they are. In the first place, it will be difficult to administer the scheme unless you have a record of the people employed. That is, a scheme of unemployment benefit or of sickness benefit. You will require a record of the week he is at work and of the week he is not at work. The best way to find that out is by the stamp. Therefore, from the administrative point of view it is very desirable to continue that system; it is hard to replace as a test of a man's employment. Secondly, it has to be borne in mind that we are collecting now about £4,000,000 from these contributions as between employer and employee. It would be very difficult for a Minister for Social Welfare to go to the Minister for Finance and to say to him: "Drop all that and put on £4,000,000 in taxation." Therefore there is no probability that the Government will drop the contributory system and replace it by taxation.

Take the scheme for retiring pensions. Not only those working for an employer require these pensions; those not in employment also want them. The same remarks apply to widows' and orphans' pensions. They are two schemes that are needed by working people whether they are employed or not. So far as the other schemes are concerned, unemployment insurance and health insurance, I agree with the Minister that they can be applied only to those who work for an employer. There is a difference between these two classes. I think that wherever a scheme is applicable to practically the whole population, the only fair way to finance it is through taxation and that, wherever it is applicable to a certain class, we should try to get that scheme financed through a particular scheme applicable only to that class.

You will not succeed, I admit, in getting one class to finance its own scheme, but we must go as near to it as we possibly can. If you ask me how would I propose that a certain class should be levied for any particular scheme of its own, I would say that, on the whole, the nearest approach we can make to it is a contributory system, even though it is an unfair system in some ways, and even though some employees and some employers can pass it on. Still, it is the only system I can see, where you can attempt to levy the cost of a particular scheme off the class concerned.

That is the principle that I want to keep in mind when making proposals to the Minister. I would like to say to him that he is very fortunate in having the Opposition that he has in front of him here to-day, because he has an Opposition that will only make proposals which they know can be carried out, proposals which they know are practicable and workable, and which will be carried out by Fianna Fáil if the Minister does not do it himself. Now, we are not going to indulge in those wild schemes which were put up by Opposition Parties when we were the Government. We recognise that it is better for the people themselves to tell them: "Here is a scheme which is workable and which we propose to implement; if the present Government does not implement it we will to implement it." Is that not better for the people than those vote-catching schemes which the people themselves came to recognise were not workable? We may be accused of being parsimonious by some of the extravagant Deputies in this House. Certainly, they would have accused me of being parsimonious in 1947 if I had made some of these proposals, but of course they have come down to realism now, and they no longer talk of £3 and nothing else. That has disappeared.

It is more than £3 now.

Not all round.

Mr. de Valera

What is in the scheme making the differentiation?

I probably misunderstood Deputy Ryan. I thought the £3 referred to wages.

Of course, office has moderated the Minister's views considerably. I do not know whether it would be of any use in a debate like this—I do not think it would serve any purpose—to remind the Minister of what he promised when in opposition, and I do not know whether it is possible, as I said at the beginning, to convince the Deputies opposite that we have a better scheme than they have.

You kept it very dark.

The Minister kept his dark for three years. I think I should be entitled to speak for the hour and a quarter that is left. I am coming to it, and I am going to state definitely a scheme that is workable and that will be worked by Fianna Fáil—not to state a scheme for the electors and then come back like the Minister with a different one, but to introduce a scheme that is workable. I say that old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions are needed by all classes except, of course, the very wealthy. We all agree, I think, that we must provide a subsistence level for those classes; in other words, the level outlined by the Minister in his Bill to-day. I think that we all perhaps agree that the thrifty man, as he is referred to, will provide something to supplement what he gets from the State in a time of illness or unemployment or for the widow he leaves behind him. He will provide something for himself to meet any of those hazards which may occur. As far as the thriftless man is concerned, we cannot do very much for him, except to say that he will have to depend by supplementing these benefits with home assistance. As a matter of fact, the Minister had that in mind and must have had it in mind in drafting Section 68.

The point is, what would be a decent standard? Since we came in here the Minister has announced an increase in the old age pensions. That makes it easier for me, because he has met me a fair part of the way. Under the nutrition survey—I am surprised to see a Fine Gael man laughing at that in view of the fact that they took 1/- off the old age pensioners when they were hard up at one time——

You gave them 10/- for 16 years.

I am sure that every Deputy has read the nutrition survey that was made in 1947. I would like to say on this occasion that the Government which was in power in 1947 can be proud of that for the rest of their lives. Will Deputies opposite compare that nutrition survey with the nutrition survey made in any other country and come back here and say that we had failed? I do not think that could be done. I want to say that the general level of nutrition in 1947 was very, very high. That survey gives the amount of food that could be consumed, what food cost and various other items dealing with the various classes in the community. It shows that old age pensioners and widows and orphans were living according to a reasonable standard of comfort. Since then their position has been improved. Now there is another slight improvement suggested by the Minister to-day. That should be sufficient to meet any increase in costs since 1947. I think we can all agree that the £1 per week for old age pensioners, based on that consideration—that is, the nutrition survey of 1947—with the increase in old age pensions since then and what is proposed now to meet the increase in the cost of living since the survey was made, should leave the old age pensioner in probably a slightly better position than he was in in 1947, and, as I say, according to the nutrition survey, he was living under a fair standard of comfort at that time.

Mr. Byrne

He was starving.

Deputies do not pay any attention to facts at all.

Ask the old age pensioners and see what they will say.

Look up the survey and read it for yourselves. That is all one can say, but there does not appear to be much use in talking to the gentlemen opposite. I say that, with the old age pension being increased to £1 per week, it should cater for the needs of those people as well as they were being catered for in 1947. The widows' and orphans' pensions also need revision in the same way. Persons, whether they are employed under a contract of service in towns or cities, or whether they are self-employed men in rural areas or towns, their widows require the same consideration in all cases. I think, therefore, that the widows' pension should be made universal in all these various classes just the same as the old age pension.

The Minister in this Bill lays down a scale of 24/- for a widow and 7/- each for two children. I think that that could be applied to all these classes. I urge the Minister to apply that to all these classes but to do it out of taxation. That is the point I am making—that he should do it out of taxation. I am arguing now from the point of view of the insured worker. The Minister holds that the insured worker has to pay his own contribution. It is unfair that that insured worker, if he has to pay his own contribution. It is unfair that that insured worker, if he has to pay his own contribution, should contribute to his widow's pension as long as he lives and, at the same time, contribute in taxation to the widows who are getting pensions under the non-contributory scheme. I think it is only fair, where you have a scheme applied to the whole population, that it should be done out of taxation. That is what I want to impress on the Minister—that it should be done out of taxation. I think the Minister will agree, so far as a widow is concerned, whether she is living in a rural district or in a small village or town or city, she has the same need, whatever occupation her husband followed before he died. I think that the benefit outlined by the Minister in the Bill is fair enough for that purpose but that it should be applied to all the widows.

It may be said that, under the Minister's scheme, there is no means test. It is about the only argument he can make in favour of his scheme, rather than having the same widow's pension all round coming out of taxation. Why not let the Dáil enact that there will be no means test? I do not say all round. Let me put it this way. I would be in favour of having a very broad interpretation of this means test for the future. First of all, I think that the widow of any man who had been in insurable employment should get the widow's pension, so that we are leaving them as well off as under the Minister's proposal. That should also apply to the widow of any landholder, let us say, with less than £25 valuation. I cannot say whether it should be £25 or £30, but let us say £25. There should be no question of means in these two cases. We are covering a very big portion of the population in these two cases—that is, where the husband was in insurable employment, there should be no means test and where the husband was a small landholder up to a certain specified valuation there should be no means test. In all other cases let there be a liberal means test, say £100. The Minister has gone to £65 in regard to old age pensions. I suppose the same will apply to the widow's pension. There is not a great difference between that and £100. I suggest, however, that he should make it £100 and then let the widow's pension be paid to all on these conditions.

I said that I was going to make certain proposals and that if the Minister did not implement them a Fianna Fáil Government would implement them. Keeping that in mind, I have to be careful. I do not know whether everyone should get a pension or not. I do not say that they should not. At least it appears to me there is a great waste of human endeavour if you say to a young widow of 22: "We are going to pension you and you need not work for the rest of your life." I think we should require that a widow would endeavour at least to get work if she is left at a certain age with no children. However, that is a case to be considered.

I would apply the same conditions to old age pensions—that they would be applied to all classes of the population except the very wealthy and that they would be paid for out of taxation. Again, the means test arises. But we can get over that by the same conditions as I propose for widows and orphans—that there would be no means test for an insured worker who retires and draws the old age pension, no means test for the small farmer, say, under £25 valuation, and that outside that the means test should be £100 per year in cash. When I say £25 valuation, there might be a good argument put up to make it £30 or £20, but I think in or about £25 is fair enough, and £100 cash is in or about the sum which also should be laid down. After all, £100 cash is less than £2 per week and, if the old age pensioner gets another £1, he has not too much. Putting the means test at £100 would not be too high in my opinion.

I said that the widows' and orphans' pension should be at the level laid down in the Bill for all widows, but I am not prepared to ask the Minister to agree that the old age pension should be all round at 65 on the same level as in the Bill. I think it is more than the country could bear and that it is more than is needed by certain classes of old age pensioners. In the rural areas, where the great majority of the old age pensioners come from, I think the proposal made by the Minister of £1 per week is all right until, as he said, we consider the matter further and that at 70 it is all right. However, I think a case can be made that the old age pensioner in the city or town requires more than a person in a rural district, because the man who retires from a small farm or a small shop in the country has not exactly gone out of use. He does a little job here and there on the farm or he might mind the shop occasionally. In all probability somebody belonging to him has taken over the farm or the shop and there is not a great burden in keeping him if he gets £1 per week. On the other hand, in a city or town, where a man has been working all his life in industrial employment his sons and daughters may have gone away or got married and he may like to go on living in his own city or town and look after himself. I think the 24/- laid down by the Minister, with another 12/- if he has a wife, is not too high as far as he is concerned.

Therefore, I make the point that the widows should get what is laid down in the Bill, because the widow on a small farm is in a very bad way. She has to employ labour to look after the farm and, therefore, she will need the full widow's pension, unlike the old age pensioner who may be of some help to his son when he reaches 70. Therefore, I say leave the widows' pension as in the Bill for all those who are drawing it but, in the case of the old age pension, I would be inclined to say it should be £1 per week at 70 paid out of taxation for all those who were in insurable employment or had farms under £25 valuation and that after that the means test should be £100 per year. As I said, those who were working in industry want more and I think the additional amount laid down in the Bill, namely, another 4/- and 12/- for a wife, if she is eligible for a pension, should be on the contributory basis. I think the pension should be payable at 70. That, I think, is the only point where the Minister is somewhat extravagant. I do not agree with this compulsory retirement at 65. It is going to be very costly.

There is no compulsory retirement. He can work until he is 95 if he likes or he can retire at 65 if he likes.

I accept that. The Minister, however, is making it hard for the man to go on. He will not be eligible for sickness or unemployment benefit if he goes on. An employer is not likely to take the risk of employing a man like that who will be ineligible for these benefits; if the man should go sick there might be some trouble. Apart from that I think we should encourage people to work up to 70 years and not discourage them, as the Minister is doing. We know that in the Civil Service, for instance, men come along and ask to be retained beyond 65; the same applies to workers outside who prefer to earn a full wage rather than a retiring allowance. They would prefer to go on working. I believe the same principle would apply in the case of manual workers too. Why, then, not let these people continue to work? I think it is our duty to encourage them.

They will not be kept on.

I will admit that that is so in certain cases but there are cases in which they will be kept on. There are certain occupations in which employers require smart men who can move about quickly and not men who are slow or stiff. There might, therefore, be some difficulty in retaining men beyond 65 in certain occupations. But I would appeal to the Minister to make it easier for men to draw unemployment benefit from 65 to 70. If a man once qualifies for sickness benefit, he is all right and can draw it between 65 and 70 without any difficulty. There is no question about that, but there is a question of requalification for unemployment benefit. I would be inclined to amend the provision in relation to that and allow men to draw unemployment benefit more easily between 65 and 70 in cases such as those referred to by Deputy Hickey, where the employer is not anxious to keep these men on.

But are you not going to defeat the Bill on the Second Reading?

Yes, and I want to give the reasons why we will defeat it. If the Dáil has any sense it will certainly defeat it, but then we all know that the Dáil is not always sensible. Now, instead of retiring men at 65 I think we should make it easier for them to draw sickness and unemployment benefit. Why, then, has the Minister made it actually harder in Section 32? All they get is 17/6. Why not let them have the full benefit for sickness or unemployment if they continue to work?

First of all, I am against it because it will be very costly and I want to keep the cost down. The expectation of life has increased. Twenty-five years hence this country will not be able to maintain all the people over 65. They will cast an intolerable burden on those who are working because every year the number over 65 will be increasing. I think the Minister should have regard to that fact and should not bring in a scheme at this stage with an age limit of 65. The Minister may say that it is in the British scheme. But we are not bound to slavishly copy the British scheme. The Minister, apparently, copied it too carefully.

What had you in mind in your scheme?

I had all sorts of things in mind. If I had spent another three years thinking over it I might have changed my mind about certain things.

If you were 53 years you would not do it.

You might have lost your memory.

Would the Deputy like me to quote for him the Labour proposals of 1947?

I heard them before.

Order. Deputy Ryan should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

The Labour proposals might be worth hearing. Now up to quite recently men became disabled owing to certain diseases round about 65; the principal diseases were rheumatism, bronchitis, asthma, bad hearts—you cannot do very much about those—and such diseases as failing eyesight and digestive troubles because of bad teeth. Improvements have been made in practically all these. Improved treatments have been introduced for rheumatism, bronchitis and asthma. There has been an improvement in the treatment of eye defects and teeth. The result is that men at 65 are now better fitted to continue working than they were. That is a point I want to make very clear to the House. I know that the International Labour Organisation made a recommendation to the Minister. I do not say that is why he adopted the recommendation, because he obviously did throw in some recommendations of his own.

The Deputy must know that insurance companies are not anxious to have men employed after 65.

Mr. Boland

They are employing men up to 70 at the present time.

Did you not do that?

Mr. Boland

I changed it.

We had not any pals in our time.

I always think that Deputy Boland must be very simple if he expects to get consistency from the Labour Party. Widows' and orphans' pensions should be paid all round and financed from taxation. To the extent that the old age pension is paid, £1 per week should be paid out of taxation and the additional amount for insured workers, 4/- extra for the man and 12/- for the wife, should come out of contributions. That is the recommendation I make.

Is that being paid in your insurance company?

Deputy O'Leary must control himself.

Deputy O'Leary is a dab at scurrility. No one could beat him. I want to say a word now about the superannuation schemes. I think where individual firms have individual schemes every encouragement should be given to these schemes. Possibly that may be the Minister's intention. These schemes are very desirable. I think where they can be approved of, the Minister should approve of them and he can pay in a certain amount proportionate to the number of people drawing from the schemes. If the Minister adopts 65, that is his look out; I hold out for 70. My suggestion would encourage these schemes and I think they are worthy of encouragement. As far as the Minister is concerned, it would not cost him any more to pay this money through the individual schemes rather than to the individuals concerned.

The Minister has said that unemployment benefit and sickness benefit are so difficult to administer that it is desirable to confine them to those who are employed by an employer. If the Minister were to accept my suggestion the position would be that the contributions would pay for sickness and unemployment benefit and for the top level of the retiring allowance, but not for widows' and orphans' pensions. I have not the same machinery at my disposal as the Minister has, but I estimate that the present contributions would be sufficient to finance the increased benefits introduced by the Minister for sickness and unemployment because those that are now payable for widows' and orphans' pensions would be available for that purpose and so there would be no necessity to increase the contributions at all.

Talking about the self-employed, we say we cannot apply these sickness and unemployment benefits but I think there is a case for consideration there. Where a long illness is involved there should be some method of receiving benefit. A short illness is not so very serious to the self-employed, as it is in the case of an ordinary wage-earner. If a small shopkeeper or a small farmer falls ill for a week or two, it does not affect him very seriously from the financial point of view but it does affect the ordinary worker earning a weekly salary. As far as long illnesses are concerned I think we require more schemes here something on the lines of that introduced in the case of tuberculosis sufferers in January, 1948. More diseases should be scheduled on the same basis. I refer now to chronic diseases which should be dealt with in the same way as tuberculosis as far as the central authority is concerned.

The Bill also brings in farm workers and domestic workers. I do not know about this question of domestic workers coming in. What strikes me is that, if you can believe all the talk that goes on, and I think you can, there is never a domestic worker unemployed for want of a job. If that is the case, a domestic worker cannot qualify for unemployment benefit, so it is unfair to put up the contribution. She can never qualify, in present circumstances, and I am quite sure they are not going to change so that they will be looking for work and cannot get it. I would be inclined to leave them as they are. They have sickness benefit. It will go down a bit under the present scheme from what it is at the moment, but that could be dealt with at another stage.

As far as farm workers are concerned, it is only logical that they should come under unemployment benefit, but they are the one class that will probably have to pay their own contribution in full and the farmer will have to pay his own contribution. Seeing that the Government has now to pay for their unemployed periods by unemployment assistance, if the Government is going to make a profit on the change-over, the Government ought to pay the contribution for those people. There would not be very much difference, as far as I can see, between paying these extra contributions or paying the unemployment assistance, as they have been, up to the moment, and, if the fund needs it, the Government should pay a certain amount to cover the extra contribution that would be expected from the farm labourer.

I say that, as far as my proposals go on behalf of this Party, it would not be necessary to increase the contributions at all. I think they are quite heavy enough and that we should leave them as they are, but it would be necessary, of course, to pay for certain things out of taxation that are not paid at the moment.

If we agree to the sickness benefits in the Bill, the unemployment benefits in the Bill, the widows' and orphans' pensions in the Bill, having them applied to all classes, the old age pensions or retiring allowances, except, in my opinion at 70, and include the proposal made by the Minister to-day that all old age pensions should go up to 20/-, what will be the cost? I do not know. I am not in a position to give it down to the £150,000, like the Minister, but we can all make a fair guess. If we know what the thing is costing under the Bill, and if we propose adding one-eighth, we know the cost will be approximately one-eighth more, on that basis. The Minister said here to-day that the increased old age pension will be £1,000,000. That is increased taxation over the present. By modifying the means test, I think there will be another £250,000. We accept that. The only other thing that I have advocated is that the widows' and orphans' pensions should be all paid out of taxation instead of the contributory pensions being paid as they are and the non-contributory pensions being paid out of taxation. I do not know, but I think that means something under £1,500,000. As far as my proposals go, that is the increased taxation that would be expected.

I want to return to the nutritional survey. There are two classes that the nutritional survey showed were not making ends meet and could not make ends meet. We want to deal with those two classes. The first was the long-term unemployed and the second was the large families. The long-term unemployed are being better provided for now, not in particular cases, but generally speaking, I mean, the large families are being better provided for in the case of sickness and not so well provided for in the case of unemployment, strange to say. These are details that could be looked into later on. The one thing that is shown by these nutritional surveys is that in every class of society, whether it is in the city, town, village, congested district, whether it is farmers or farm labourers, the large family is not getting the nourishment that is required. So, something should be done for the large family. The Minister has not proposed anything. I think he should make some improvement under family allowances.

There are two ways proposed; one is to give something extra to the children for whom the allowance is now paid or even to give something extra after the third or fourth child, according to what our means permit. The alternative is to do something for the poorer families. I do not like that idea because it would mean having a means test in respect of children's allowances, which is not the case at present. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to consider doing something for the large families. I know that to double the allowance would mean £2,200,000. I know that that probably would not be agreed to. It would be too heavy a burden. But, would he not consider doing something extra for every child after the third, or even, every child after the fourth, if the former would cost too much? I imagine that if £500,000 was spent there it would relieve a lot of the hardship that exists at present amongst large families.

In the White Paper, the Minister said his scheme would cost in taxation £1,750,000, up to £2,500,000 in five years. He has added £1,250,000 to that to-day, and if my proposals were adopted, in addition to better old age pensions, to give better widows' pensions all round and to improve children's allowances, the taxation needed to cover that would be in the region of £2,000,000. The Minister would be in a better position to get the figure than I am.

Before I leave that point, I would like to emphasise that the taxation system is a fairer system because, if you go on to the contributory system in a big way, as the Minister proposes, some workers will pay it, some employers will pay it, some will not, and, in every case, if they can succeed, but in many cases where they will succeed, it is the consumer who will pay. So, it might be as well for the consumer to pay as a taxpayer and not, later on, to pay by the back-door method, as will be the case under the scheme brought in by the Minister.

I think that deals with the first part of the resolution which I proposed, that the Minister had failed to bring in a comprehensive scheme; in other words, he had failed to treat all classes of the community that had a certain need equally under his scheme. As far as the second part of the resolution is concerned, it says that the contributions are onerous, and that the benefits in some cases are little better than they are at the moment.

I would just like to give some instances. I will not delay very long on this point; three or four instances will suffice. Let me take the retiring allowances. I think the position is this, that a man retires and gets 24/-, plus 12/—that is 36/-. If he reaches 70, and his wife reaches 70 at the same time, they have 36/-. Let us say he has a brother in the country who has never contributed. If that man and his wife reach 70 at the same time they get 35/-. I think that if the very heavy contributions produce an anomaly of that kind, we are quite entitled to say that the contributions are too heavy and in many cases the benefits are little better than the benefits obtaining at the moment.

Now, on account of the Minister's new proposals to-day we will have this position, that not only will the brother and his wife get 35/-, but they will get £2.

I should like to put the Deputy right on two points. The number who get old age pensions at 70 is 164,000 and the number of cases where a man and his wife jointly would qualify for pensions at 70 is about 25,000, so they are not all the same class. That is point No. 1. On point No. 2, when you examine the means test modifications, you will see that even the receipt of a retirement allowance will still qualify the person to get a portion of an old age pension. He will never be able to get less than £2 a week, and he may get more.

I do not want the Dáil to think that in most cases the benefits are not much better. I say that in many cases they are not, although the contributions are high, and I am giving some examples. I have already given one, and here is another. Take a single man applying for sickness or unemployment benefit. At the moment he gets 22/6 and with the increased contribution he will get 24/-. That is not much of an increase. If a man has less than £3 10s. 0d. a week—and there is a very big number working for less at the moment—the single man would now get 22/6 by way of sickness benefit and under the new conditions he will get only 18/-. His benefit will go down in that case.

Take the unemployed man, the man with a family. If he has less than £3 10s. 0d. a week he would at the moment get 30/-, but under the new proposals he will get 27/-, so he goes back 3/-. If he has one child, he will now get 32/6, as compared with 30/- under this Bill, and there is an enormous difference there for him. With a larger family he will get 37/- a week under the new proposals as against 45/- now. These are certain instances which I think it well to mention and it would appear that in many cases the people will not get a whole lot more—in some instances you see they will get less—although the burden of contributions is heavier.

They are very extreme cases.

Some of them are not so extreme. I think the Minister will admit that those who are lowly paid are more liable to unemployment than those who are highly paid and there will be a fair proportion of the unemployed people who will be worse off under the new scheme. The Minister may have his reasons for that. I am arguing only against the high contributions. I say that they are too high.

I give these instances to justify the second part of the amendment—that the Bill would impose greatly increased burdens on both employees and employers while providing benefits little better, in many cases, than those now available. The Minister has mentioned that some of us are bound to feel envious over this measure. I do not feel very envious. If I were sitting for three years where the Minister is now sitting, and if I were to put in the Beveridge scheme and take off 2/- all round, I would not consider it, but that is what the Minister has done; he has presented the Beveridge scheme and taken off so much and he says we are now green with envy. I say that we are not.

I admire the Minister's complacency in standing so proudly over this scheme. I ask the Minister quite seriously to accept this amendment. I believe that my scheme is more comprehensive and more balanced; it is a better scheme financially and in every other way than the scheme that has been introduced by him. If he does not accept it, I ask the Dáil to do so, and if they do not, all I can say is that the Fianna Fáil Party will accept it and put it into operation when they become the Government.

In the sweet by and by.

Not so sweet and not so by and by.

It will not be long, now.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I have proposed nothing in the way of benefit that is less than what the Minister proposes. As regards the retiring pension, my proposal is 70 instead of 65. I have asked the Minister to make it possible for the man in that case to draw either sickness or unemployment benefit between 65 and 70. He should be encouraged to stay in rather than go out. All round, I am not proposing any benefit that would be less than what the Minister proposes. There is a difference, in that I am proposing better widows' and orphans' pensions. He has, in his announcement to-day, proposed for old age pensions what I also propose, with this exception: I would make the means test very much higher; I would make it easier for the person to get the old age or the widows' and orphans' pension. So, if I propose benefits better all round than the Minister every time, the only objection he can have is that it is that the scheme I propose is too costly—and that will be a new role for the Minister.

What about the 1947 motion when you voted against any modification of the means test?

There are two amendments on the Order Paper and both amendments must be moved.

Would I be in order if I were formally to move the amendment and speak at a later stage?

No, that cannot be done; it must be before the House.

Then I move:—

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following: "Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill until the views of the people in relation thereto have been ascertained."

In that amendment I am asking that the views of the people of the country should be ascertained before this Bill becomes an Act. I would like to say at the outset that I feel at a little bit of a disadvantage because the Minister in his opening statement to-day altered the proposals from what they were in the Bill that was presented to us before Christmas. The Minister announced to-day an increase in the old age pensions, which is something with which I am in thorough agreement, something that I advocated from election platforms and something I believe in. The Minister also modified the means test and that is a matter that I am in complete agreement with also. The Minister has announced that he is incorporating these two items, and also an alteration of the means test so far as I.R.A. pensions are concerned, in the Bill. So far as these amendments suggested by the Minister are concerned, I think they will improve the Bill considerably. Whether it makes the Bill generally acceptable is another matter. I can quite appreciate the feelings and the views of the Minister. Any person who feels that a particular object should be achieved, and who tries to do that in the best way he possibly can and who is up close to that problem for a number of years is probably inclined to devise a scheme which, owing to his being too intimately associated with it, is not a scheme that is acceptable to the people of the country generally.

The amendment that I suggest is something that should fit in in any country where a democracy is in operation. We talk a great deal about democracy and the will of the people in this country. Some of us are inclined to decide what is good for the people and some are inclined to inflict on the people what they think is good for them. Yet we talk about democracy and the will of the people. The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that the will of the people will be ascertained definitely and objectively.

It has been suggested that it would be a difficult thing to ask the people of the country whether they were in favour of this Social Security Bill or not: that it would be an unreasonable thing to ask the people whether they were in favour of this Bill as presented in this House or not. We had not the slightest doubt in asking the people: "Do you believe in, do you approve or are you in favour of the Constitution?" We are told that the Social Security Bill is an involved and difficult measure—a measure upon which the ordinary voter in the country cannot make up his mind. We asked the people of the country to make up their minds about a much more difficult and a much more involved matter when we asked them to make up their minds on the Constitution of the country. We also asked the people of the country to make up their minds about who are going to come into this House and represent them. I think that that is democracy.

On various occasions a Government is defeated on a particular measure. That Government goes to the country in a general election and the particular measure upon which the Government has gone to the country is never put before the people. It is the qualifications, the personalities and the general policy of both Parties that is put before the people of the country in a general election and not a particular issue.

I suggest that this amendment of mine will give the people the opportunity—if we can have a plebiscite on it—of deciding whether the people of this democracy want this Bill or not. If the amendment that I have tabled is accepted we will prove to the world that we are, in fact, a democracy.

This White Paper, which the Minister issued some long time ago—in October, 1949—has been before the people since 1949. Since this White Paper was published at a cost of two shillings, the original Bill introduced by the Minister was withdrawn. Number 2 Social Welfare Bill—social security was not mentioned in it—was introduced. To-day the Minister has come in with what I might call No. 3 Bill with the suggestions that he has made in introducing it to-day. As far as I am concerned when I went before the people to be elected I did not present to them any programme that included a limited welfare scheme. If I might say so, I do not believe that after the election there were ten points agreed upon by the inter-Party groups. As far as I was concerned, I did not see these ten points until I read them on the paper. Included in these ten points is a scheme of comprehensive social security. In my opinion, this Bill presented by the Minister is not comprehensive. It is anti-social and will mean insecurity for a number of people in the country. I wonder who wants it. Who on this side of the House had a mandate to put it into effect? So far as I know, and so far as I have read the propaganda in the election addresses of Fine Gael at the last election, there was no mention of a comprehensive social insurance scheme.

I am talking about 1948.

And in 1948 as well.

But this scheme is still not comprehensive social security in my opinion. Clann na Poblachta did suggest a scheme which was based on the Australian type of social security. That is different from the scheme presented to us by the Minister in this Bill. I know that people throughout the country—railway clerks, workers' councils, employers' associations, professional associations—have publicly stated that they did not want it.

Not at all.

I will read a few quotations in due course. There are a number of other people who have spoken against the Bill. I do not think that anybody can regard the Bishop of Clonfert as a reactionary person. He says:

"If I were asked to draw up a national scheme—and this scheme is supposed to be national—I could not look on it as a model to follow; or, if I did, I would feel bound to make so many and so important changes that an almost completely new scheme would emerge.

My general objection to the proposals is they will not give social security to the nation. Specifically the proposals, in my opinion, violate distributive justice in imposing burdensome taxation on the whole community to pay benefits to a new privileged class—wage earners—and not all wage earners are included; they fail to provide certain (non-cash) benefits which are implicit in social security; they favour the city and town to the detriment of rural areas; and they imply a bureaucratic and costly administration. Surely no scheme can give social security to a nation when half the nation's working population is excluded from it? Only 300,000 ‘wage earners' benefit from the scheme... small farmers, shopkeepers, business people, professional men are all excluded, as are certain classes of casual workers."

What is the quotation from?

From Christus Rex.

And the date?

The September issue. There is a national newspaper— the fact that its headquarters are in Cork does not mean that it ceases to be a national newspaper—the Cork Examiner, which nobody can claim is anything but a supporter of the present Government. In a leading article of a week ago, the Cork Examiner says:—

"The Minister for Social Welfare, lecturing at Cork, welcomed, or at least, said he did not object to criticism of the Social Security Bill, as long as it was intelligent, but complained about ignorant criticism. Unfortunately, he did not define which sort of criticism was intelligent and which ignorant. Because Britain adopted a scheme of social security adapted to the circumstances of an intensely industrialised country is not an infallible reason why a scheme on similar lines should fit in for an agricultural country like ours. Moreover, the British plan first drafted by Lord Beveridge, was intended to forestall conditions following the war. This, in a way, could be compared to Lloyd George's plans to make Britain a country fit for war heroes, which were equally intended to counter the period of depression which followed all previous big wars in which Britain was engaged. Lloyd George's ‘land fit for heroes' ideal did not work out according to hopes. Hence, a social security scheme was adopted in what was looked on as good time. Then there was the difference that after the second war a powerful Labour-Socialist Parliament and Government were elected whose programme is to socialise everything worth while. If the State is to take over natural resources and means of production, the least it should do is to provide for its workers in distress."

The article goes on to deal with the present scheme and says:—

"Ireland is in a vastly different social and economic position to that of Britain. Here we have an economy based on agriculture, and all the Parliaments in the world could not change something that has happened not by man-made law but by the processes of nature. Any industries we possess can only count on stability by working to supply the home population, two-thirds of which depend on agriculture, and a further percentage on catering for the agricultural population. It follows that most of the national income derived from productive work arises from agriculture. Hence, the primary consideration is, is the social welfare scheme presented for discussion suitable for an agricultural country, and can a rural population afford it? One defect is that farmers are excluded from any benefits that arise, though indirectly they have to find a greater part of the money required to finance the scheme."

I think the Deputy might make his own speech and give his own opinions, and not quote the whole of the leading article.

Can we not buy that?

If Deputies would buy it, read it and digest it, I should be quite happy.

Would the Deputy give the date?

6th February, 1951.

This is not the Corkman's Bible?

There is another aspect of this matter on which people through the country would like to give expression to their views, that is, the extent to which there will be State interference as a result of the enactment of this piece of legislation. It appears to some people in the country that when you adopt a general wholesale social security scheme, you are passing over certain rights to the State and the individual must of necessity become a cog in the wheel of the State administration. There are certain other people who have objections to the scheme on moral grounds, on social grounds, on economic grounds and on legal grounds. Deputies may laugh and snigger and chuckle as much as they like, but, while we claim to be a democracy and while we have people in the country who hold these views, we should at least give them an opportunity of expressing their views. They are entitled to have their views and to say whether a certain piece of legislation is right or wrong, if we are a democracy.

We heard a great deal during the past few days about savings, but there is no doubt that certain people in the country who are interested in the savings movement believe that in this Bill there is a great danger to the savings movement. They believe that it is ridiculous for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to be putting advertisements in the newspapers asking people to get Post Office Savings Bank books, while, at the same time, we have legislation such as this which will act as a deterrent to saving in many cases. It is, as I say, a point of view that is held by a certain section of the people.

There are certain people who believe that the Bill is wrong socially, who believe that, under the Bill, certain responsibilities are being taken away, that people are being catered for who do not require to be catered for and classes being ignored which do require to be catered for. There are other people, who believe that the Bill is wrong on economic grounds, that it will interfere with the economy of the country, that it will affect certain initiative. There are other people who believe that the Bill is wrong on legal grounds and even on constitutional grounds. They hold that under the Constitution the family is the unit and is given pride of place in the Constitution and they believe that this Bill is interfering with the fundamental family right.

There is the question of taxation. At the moment, we have an overall budget of approximately £92,000,000. There is no provision in it, so far as I know, for the extra taxation which will be necessary as a result of the enactment of this legislation. We have 3,000,000 people and with the national taxation at that level it is worrying many people as to whether we can impose a further burden of millions of pounds, on to the present budget, to cover a cost which will increase progressively. Whether it will be to the advantage of the people supposed to benefit or not, is something I cannot say at this stage.

We have been told by several speakers that we must adopt this scheme if we are to stave off Communism. It is presented by certain speakers as an insurance policy against Communism. In my opinion, and in the opinion of several people throughout the country — and I am appealing that they be given an opportunity to express their views on the Bill—this measure, instead of staving off Communism, will bring people into categories where they are more susceptible to communistic influences than they are at the moment. I believe the way to counter Communism is to give property to as many people as possible. Anyone who has something to own will not be so keen on dividing it with someone else. This Bill, unfortunately, puts the person who owns anything in a worse position than the person working for someone else. At the same time, it puts an imposition on the selfemployer and gives him absolutely no benefit. Take, for instance, the lads round the streets selling papers, the unfortunate woman in Moore Street or the Coal Quay in Cork selling her fish, the shopkeeper in a village, the rural blacksmith, the man with the small plot of land. All these people are self-employers and are completely excluded from benefit but they will be called upon to pay considerable sums in general taxation for benefits to bank managers, directors of the Electricity Supply Board and so on, who will be included for benefit under the Bill. Instead of doing something to keep Communism further away from us, we are doing something in exactly the opposite direction. We are doing something to prevent people from being independent, from starting businesses of their own, from developing plots of land of their own. We are putting a premium on the person who is working for somebody else. To prevent Communism coming into this country we must try to have as many small self-employers as we possibly can. In my amendment I am not directly speaking against the Bill but only appealing for an opportunity for the people of the country to say what they think of it, to say whether they want the scheme or not.

There are several other aspects I would like to deal with, but will not have time to-day. In this agricultural country our wealth comes from those engaged in that primary industry. I do not disparage in any way the usefulness of the goods and services rendered by others, but I say that the only wealth we have must come out of the soil. Can we afford schemes that a big industrial nation like Britain can afford? Is it a good policy for us to adopt the scheme that has been in operation in England? Does the Minister not think that conditions here are quite dissimilar? I would ask the Minister if he has considered whether the type of scheme in operation in Denmark, New Zealand or Australia would not fit into the economy of this country to a greater degree.

The Minister has brought forward proposals to-day the implications of which I have not had sufficient time to consider—the modification of the means test for old age pensions and the increasing of the old age pension to £1. Those are two matters on which I am in complete and absolute agreement with him, but I think he could have introduced them completely apart from the scheme before us, as he has done already in increasing the old age pension on a previous occasion, without waiting to enshrine it in a Bill like this. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned to Tuesday next.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 6th March, 1951.
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