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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate— B.A.O.s Allowances.

Major de Valera

I am raising this matter on the Adjournment because, in its essence, it is a question of the right of Deputies in this House to frank answers to questions which are asked. In certain circumstances a Minister is occasionally entitled to decline to give the information sought and to give his reasons—and that is frequently accepted. However, in such circumstances, it has been customary to say frankly that the information is not being given and to give a reason for taking that course. In other cases, the custom and the proper course has been to give the information frankly, and heretofore we accepted in this House— and, indeed, it is very frequently done —that, although the information would not be politically helpful to the Minister who is giving it, nevertheless it was frankly given. My reason for raising this matter is because there has been a lamentable departure in this particular case from that correct practice. The Minister who is answering to-night is in no way responsible, and when I speak of the Minister in this matter I am speaking of the corporate body, and I must, of necessity, refer to his predecessor in office.

Another point which I should like to make is that the Deputies of this House have the privilege of asking for information. They should not be put to the task of a careful legal formulation of the question in order to get the information which they require. It should be sufficient for a Deputy to make his sense clear when asking for the information and, on such a clear request, it should be sufficient to have an answer frank in the spirit as well as in the letter of the question. What happened in this case? On the 28th February last the Minister was asked whether any reductions had been made in subsistence allowances payable to battalion administrative officers attached to the F.C.A. The reference is column 773 of the Official Report of the 28th February last. The Minister's predecessor in office replied that the rates of special allowance payable to N.C.O.s filling vacancies for battalion administrative officers with units of the F.C.A. in country districts have heretofore been 3/1 a day for personnel provided with military accommodation and 4/1 a day for others. He said, further, that it was recently decided to alter these allowances to 3/3 a day for administrative officers for whom accommodation is provided or who are living with their families and 6/- a day for others. In a supplementary question, Deputy Boland asked about a reduction of 10d. a day for N.C.O.s and the net result was that the Minister's reply left everyone under the impression that rather was there not a reduction but that there was an increase and he professed not to understand the rest of the question. This was an example of a half-truth which was misleading. In view of the form of the question, I fear I must draw the inference that the reply was deliberately misleading. Reading the answer in the light of facts that, fortunately, we subsequently had available to us, it is easy to see, on parsing the answer, that it can be read as not an untrue statement but as a partial statement which was misleading.

What, in fact, apparently was the position? It would appear, and I gather this now from the Minister's reply to-day, that there was, in fact, a reduction in the amount of subsistence allowance payable to N.C.O.s, some 61 in number, of 10d. a day. The Minister's answer on the occasion referred to was to show an increase to N.C.O.s in the same category but with a slight difference of circumstances. What were the circumstances? Incidentally, in the question to-day I asked whether a finance branch or other directive or regulation providing for "arrears of allowances to B.A.O.s under Amendment to D.F.R. S/3, paragraph 70, whereunder allowances at the rate of 3/3 per day are provided for married N.C.O.s living with their families (except where military accommodation is provided) with effect from 28/12/'50 was recently promulgated...." I am not quite clear from the answer whether that is a correct reference. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong. It would appear that the new regulations provide especially for N.C.O.s living in the Dublin area— which do not concern us here; then for married N.C.O.s living with their families at 3/3 per day, and then for single or married N.C.O.s living away from their families who are to get 6/- a day. It appears that the net result of this was to increase the subsistence allowances to N.C.O.s in the Limerick and Dublin area, and also to single or married N.C.O.s living away from their families due to the exigencies of the service. But married N.C.O.s living with their families, except where military accommodation was provided, were to get 3/3 a day whereas heretofore the sum was 4/1 a day. Therefore, if I understand the matter correctly, there was a reduction of 10d. a day in the allowances paid to these men who were living with their families but for whom military accommodation was not provided. Surely a responsible Minister, in face of the question asked —whether any reduction had recently been made in subsistence allowances payable to B.A.O.s—would have given that fact as well as others. That is the first point. In its essence, it is a question of the privilege and right of Deputies of this House. I am perfectly certain that no Minister would be misled to such an extent by the officers of his Department in a matter of that nature —and I must therefore lay the blame on the present Minister's predecessor.

At the risk of repetition, I should like Deputies to appreciate what is involved for every Deputy in the House if any such lack of frankness or misleading answers to questions from the ministerial benches should be tolerated, no matter who or what group or what Party or what Government should be responsible for the furnishing of these answers.

I come now to the question of these B.A.O.s themselves.

It appears therefore that there are 61 N.C.O.s who are to suffer a decrease of 10d. per day in their subsistence allowance. The subsistence allowance is an allowance that goes to meet the cost of living and enables them to be efficient. Surely this time when prices are rising, when the supply situation is difficult, is not a time to cut the allowance of these officers. Surely a time when we want to encourage the F.C.A. which is the major part of the Reserve of our Defence Forces is not the time to do a thing like that. Any of us who have had experience of voluntary forces— and a number have been tried in the State heretofore—realise and must know that the efficiency of such a force depends firstly on the furnishing of an adequate whole-time personnel to cater for them and secondly on the enthusiasm and efficiency of that personnel. Very much indeed depends on these factors. What will be the effect of this action on the efficiency of the F.C.A. which we all profess to regard as important and encourage and which the Minister and his predecessor sought to encourage? What effect can it have but an adverse one? The amount of money involved cannot be very great. I have not done the sum. I should have, I suppose.

How many are involved?

Major de Valera

Sixty-one officers are involved at 10d. a day.

Something over £900.

Major de Valera

It is not going to break the Exchequer. Remember that the Minister has had a saving under the stores heading; he has not been able to purchase the stores he would like to purchase, or at least so we have been frequently told here. Surely a part of that saving, less than £1,000, could be usefully diverted to this purpose. There was no need to cut the allowances of these men, and therefore I take this opportunity to ask the Minister to reconsider his decision. It savours of the many regulations from which the-Army suffered in the past under different Governments; they did not do any good and the net result was not any real economy. Here is a point where I think it would be important to reconsider just this one matter, even if it were decided that those N.C.O.s who received the allowance heretofore should continue to receive it while the other cases might be considered. I would definitely go so far as to say that these officers perform such an important duty and so much depends upon them that it would be money well spent to leave them this established allowance rather than demoralise them.

Another matter arose out of the Minister's reply to a supplementary question. Perhaps I might be permitted to read it. The Minister said:—

"The difference between the two rates of special allowance (at present 2/9 a day and previously a 1/- a day) represents an element in respect of the cost of lodgings for single men not provided with the accommodation which they would normally have in barracks if they were stationed at military posts. Previously, in addition to personnel who were compelled to live in lodgings, the higher rate of special allowance was, owing to the wording of the regulation, issued to married personnel living with their families, although such personnel are not at any time or in any locality provided with free married accommodation. The anomaly which existed hitherto has been rectified as from the 23rd February, 1951, with the result that 61 battalion administrative officers who had, prior to that date, been in receipt of 4/1 a day are now in receipt of 3/3 a day, representing a decrease in their cases of 10d. a day."

I asked the Minister certain supplementaries and the Minister said:—

"There is a reduction of 10d. a day to people who are not entitled to it at all."

I said that these were allowed before and the Minister agreed they were. I said:—

"I take it that they were drawing it legally."

He said no, and I asked if the Department had made illegal payments. I am not trying to take up the Minister on that word, nor do I say that the present Minister tried to mislead me on this matter. I do not think he did, but is it quite correct to say that they were illegal payments? If there was a fault in the wording of the regulation it may have been against the intention——

That would be more like it.

Major de Valera

The Minister understands that I am not charging him.

Yes, that is more correct.

Major de Valera

Everybody understands that It was against the intention, but, frankly I cannot see the Minister's very efficient Department slipping up on an illegal payment and I am sure the Minister cannot either.

It is very hard to get them to make legal payments.

Major de Valera

They are so cautious that that is very frequently so. That payment was legal and proper as far as the regulations were concerned, whatever about the regulation not corresponding with the intention and, therefore, these men were, in law anyway, entitled to this payment. If a mistake was made, as mistakes sometimes are made, they were not at fault, nor did they draw something to which they were not entitled. That is all the more reason why it should not be taken from them now. To give anything and then take it away always causes greater hardship than not to give it at all.

I want to give the Minister time to reply, but I would ask him first of all to give the Deputies of this House an assurance on behalf of his Department that in future questions will be answered frankly even if it means not answering at all, as happened recently when the Minister said frankly to me that he did not think it would be in the public interest to give me the information I wanted. At least I knew I was not getting any information and the reasons why, and we knew where we were. Questions should be answered by the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and not by a part-truth, as was done by the Minister's predecessor with all the appearance of attempting deliberately to mislead the people who asked the question. For the sake of the 61 men involved, for the sake of the Army, for the sake of that very important element of our Defence Forces, the F.C.A., will the Minister not now adjust his regulation to see that this sum is paid to these men?

Also, from the point of good faith, it is a very important thing—and the Minister himself knows it as an officer who served in the Army—for the morale of our Defence Forces, to know that faith can be kept with trust on both sides, on the Government side and on their side; and in a sense this now resolves itself to a matter of keeping faith with them. A regulation was made, inadvertently giving them a benefit, leading them to believe they were entitled to it. Keep faith with them now, adjust that regulation and pay them. There are only 61 involved.

I think the Deputy was rather unfair to my predecessor when he said that he was misleading. The answer is very clear in view of the answer he gave on the 23rd. It appears to me, on reading it, that the facts are clearly stated. I do not believe that there was any intention to mislead, nor do I believe that the Minister did mislead, either intentionally or unintentionally. Therefore, at the earliest possible moment, I want to say that, as far as I can see, the information was that asked for by the Deputy. However, the question was asked in a more deliberate way to-day and, to be quite candid, I find it difficult myself to understand the answer—though I have had it in front of me.

Major de Valera

The first question was: was there a reduction?

The second, however, is more difficult. Married soldiers living with families, whether inside or outside barracks, pay for their accommodation, their married quarters, out of their pay, marriage allowances, etc. There are two types of such allowance payable to an N.C.O. attached to the F.C.A., one to cover disturbance expenses and the other to cover both disturbance and accommodation. Due to a flaw in the regulations, married men living with their families were hitherto getting the higher allowances as well as men in lodgings to whom it was properly payable. Advantage was taken of the recent amendment of the regulations to rectify this position. Had it continued, men living in lodgings as well as married men living with families but not attached to the F.C.A. would have a grievance. In other words, there were other people who would come in. I am quite willing to admit that when a person has some advantage that the regulation gives him, it is the devil to lose it.

It has been always the practice not to deprive them.

There is an older practice than that, that is, where a mistake occurred there are two people to suffer—the person responsible for the payment can be surcharged and the poor fellow who got it can be compelled to repay it. That is a regulation which both Deputies know as well as I do.

Major de Valera

That does not apply here. The regulation was legal.

If there is a flaw, it is in the regulation.

There is the fact that something was given to them which apparently it was not the intention to give to that class of N.C.O. I have not been able to examine the whole circumstances or the effects and the best and the most I can say is that I will examine them.

Hear, hear!

That is as far as I can go and I should not be pressed to do anything more than that at the moment. Any time there is a grievance in any section of the Army, I know that it affects the morale of the forces. A contented Army personnel is one of the greatest assets any country can have. Quite the contrary is the reverse of that. Therefore, my policy and the policy of the Government of which I am a member is to make things as satisfactory as can humanly be done for every member serving in the forces of our country.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m., until 3 p.m., on Wednesday, 14th March, 1951.

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