The Minister to conclude.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).
In rising to reply to the debate on this Supplementary Estimate and the sub-heads governing a number of the different services, I should like now, in case I might forget it, to reply to some of the insinuations and some of the suggestions contained in the speech of Deputy MacEntee. Deputy MacEntee, in speaking on this debate the other evening, stated that the policy and the outlook of the Government here for the time being was opposed to private enterprise, that they had adopted the outlook and the principles of those living behind the Iron Curtain. The clearest way to state a matter of this kind is to state it simply. I cannot state too clearly that that particular innuendo or charge is far, far removed from the truth of the situation. It is not only a free but it is a licentious translation of truncated extracts from the speeches of people over here. I never saw a speech of any public man, Deputy or Minister, so abused and so distorted in translation and interpretation as the speech made here by the Tánaiste was by Deputy MacEntee.
I would like to say this, and I would like to say it without challenge, that, irrespective of geographical positions around this carpet, every one of us, those sitting opposite as well as those sitting here, are genuinely and sincerely interested in Irish prosperity, in employment for the Irish people, in industrial advancement and in the industrial development of the country. There is no great point in 1951 in washing in public my old blue shirt or Deputy MacEntee's old red shirt. The position that matters is the attitude and the outlook of the people generally and of the Parliament generally in conditions at the moment, in conditions to-morrow and the day after. Naturally and obviously, any Government in this country will be more interested than anyone in Opposition in the continuation, expansion and development of Irish industries both from the point of the material strength, trade and employment of this country, as well as just the other point of industrial development as far as it affects private individuals.
We believe absolutely in private enterprise. Where private enterprise fails, then there is an obligation on the State to step in. Great services affecting the lives and the homes of everybody in the country, such as water, sewerage and electricity and, in modern life, transport are too huge and too vast to be undertaken by private capital, or by the capital of the private individual, or group of individuals, to face or risk the loss that might be entailed from time to time in ventures such as these. When slump periods come, bankruptcy is threatened and there is the closure of essential services such as we had not only in our railways down here but recently in the case of the railways in the North. In such a situation, the State steps in. It must step in and is entitled to step in; but in other respects the policy, the outlook and the view of this Government is that industrial development must, as far as possible, be undertaken by private enterprise.
We have done our utmost, and the Deputies sitting opposite know it, from the time of the change of Government to continue the programme already there, to encourage it, and to invite Irish capital, and inviting Irish capital means inviting Irish confidence in the building up of Irish industry in this country. That has been the attitude. Then we had that speech from Deputy MacEntee the other evening to say to industrialists outside: "These fellows sitting opposite do not believe in Irish enterprise. They have translated into their minds and into their policy the outlook of Stalin and the people behind the Iron Curtain." Translate that. What does it mean to the man with money banked up and lying idle? What does it mean from the point of view of the town or village anywhere from here to Kerry looking for an Irish industry? This is an ex-Minister for Finance and not only an ex-Minister for Finance but an ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce and an ex-Minister for Local Government and Public Health. He is saying to that man with idle capital: "Keep your money in your bank. Do not invest it in Irish industrial development. The Government of this country is against private enterprise. They are out against profits." Anything more damaging to the outlook and possible prosperity of this State I have never heard from the mouth of even an irresponsible Deputy. It would not be worth replying to except that it comes from the mouth of a man who was for 16 years a Minister in this country. I ask the leaders of the Party opposite— those of them who are sincerely concerned and anxious to advance the prosperity of this country and to expand industrial development in this country—from within their own Party to discourage that kind of propaganda. It may be a slick point in debate. In the national sense, however, it is genuinely and extensively damaging not only to capitalists inside the country but to capitalists outside the country. I heard that speech quoted back to myself, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, this morning. I am sure it can be heard in the stock exchanges inside and outside this country to-day. These kinds of irresponsible utterances by a Deputy opposite—an ex-Minister—just anxious to prod but unthinking of the damage he may do should be discouraged by both sides of the House.
Provided we stand for private enterprise, what is the next logical step? Philanthropists of financial standing are very rare birds. You do not get people to sink their money in any venture purely for the sake of helping the neighbour, helping the lad around the corner, doing something for a country. You do not get them sinking their money in Irish industry as a hobby, merely for the sake of a pastime. Provided you stand for private enterprise then you must stand also for the profit incentive. The profit incentive, the profit inducement, is the only bait to attract capital. Provided the profit is reasonable, provided the quality of the material turned out is a good quality material, and provided the conditions under which it is produced are good and sound, then every member of this Government and every member on this side of the House is lined up behind that particular enterprise. Reasonable profit, good quality goods and good working conditions. Since the time of the change of Government, through the mouth of the head of this Government, these conditions were laid down. Subject to these conditions, every help the Government can give will be given. You have, here and there, departures from these three conditions. They are few, but the few frequently damage the many. You have either bad quality or bad conditions or excessive profits. Genuine Irish industrialists condemn that kind of thing as loudly as any of us. The one can get a bad name for the many. I met representatives of Irish industry: I met representatives of Irish manufacturers.
I pointed out the black sheep here and the black sheep there and they agreed that that was so and they deplored it. I suggested that it would be much better to have that kind of thing dealt with from within their own body than for the State to intervene and deal with them. That kind of thing could get a bad name for all, not only by being accepted as an example of the whole lot but by any references to these very few being distorted as references to the whole body. That is exactly what Deputy MacEntee did.
Major de Valera
All that type of distortion came from the Tánaiste and his associates.
We will quote the Tánaiste a little more fully than Deputy MacEntee quoted him the other night. The unfortunate thing about Deputy MacEntee is that when he is sitting down he is a reasonable man. In the perpendicular position he becomes, of late, nothing but a mud-squirt. He behaves like a mud-squirt.
Major de Valera
Is that in order?
He is incapable of dealing with——
Major de Valera
I think that such references to a Deputy are not in order.
That is a matter for the Chair. He behaves like a mud-squirt.
I think it would be much better if the expression were not used.
I was trying to interpret in my own way the views of the Chair. The Chair, in reference to the Deputy, pointed out that certain of his actions were within the rules of order but that it was a matter of taste whether to indulge in those activities or not. I leave it, in deference to the Chair, as being a matter of taste for the Deputy and the Deputy's colleagues. However, in his particular anxiety to attack the Government, I would ask him to discriminate between when he is damaging the country rather than damaging the Government. It appears to me that the kind of regimented vocal unanimity that used to be a characteristic of the Party opposite has completely broken down against the rock of Government success not only in this field but in many other fields as well.
To-day the Opposition is like an unorganised or disorganised jazz band, every one of them walloping a different kettledrum with a different note. Anyone listening to the debate here the other evening could see that, though mind you, for once I will exempt Deputy Major de Valera; whether it was due to some kind of aberration I do not know, but he happened to stick to something that was before him. What was Deputy MacEntee's contention? That the policy of this Government had not only stopped any industrial progress in the country, but had completely paralysed the pre-existing industries. From immediately behind his back we heard Deputy Briscoe. What was his line? That he, Deputy Briscoe, a man who did not command a whole lot of capital, was putting it into an Irish enterprise together with a partner. He had confidence that the Administration was not Red; he had sufficient confidence to sink his bit of capital here. On the same day we had a query from Deputy Lemass as to why one of the wealthiest mining companies in the Transvaal were allowed to come and sink their capital here to develop the mineral resources of this country. Deputy Lemass deplored the fact that the financial stability of the country was such and the future of Irish industry so solid that we could attract capital not only from within the State, but from the wealthiest syndicate in South Africa.
Major de Valera
That is a complete misrepresentation. Deputy Lemass did not say any such thing.
Deputy Briscoe sinks his own little capital here; Deputy MacEntee has said that there was a complete loss of confidence and that Irish industry was not only checked but completely paralysed. I will leave it to Deputy de Valera. He is only a junior in the ranks opposite, but as a junior he may have some influence. He may have enough to make those contradictory points of view compatible. I hate to see a Party going into smithereens, a Party that at one time was great, but remember that one, two or three lunatics can destroy a whole Party. Control your lunatics and then in the course of the next 16 years you may get somewhere.
We had a further contradiction on the prices freeze and the de-frosting operation which followed. When, after very full consideration, the Government decided on the prices freeze we were denounced by the Deputies opposite. We were denounced by the tied organ, the controlled organ, the political organ of the Party opposite. It was said that this idea of freezing prices would paralyse not only industry but commerce as well. They were standing somewhere for some length of time and were campaigning with some degree of consistency. Then the Government decided to de-frost a number of items and we were attacked more bitterly by the gentlemen opposite for that operation than ever we were for the freeze, with the result that even many old-time wealthy industrialists who would battle as men of backbone told us that the gentlemen opposite were only spineless political weathercocks whose political outlook was that anything this Government did must of necessity be wrong, and whether it was right or wrong their mission in life was to denounce, criticise and oppose.
Both the freeze and the de-frosting were entirely wrong, and that is exactly what we said. We believed that both were wrong.
The Deputy is like the old lady in the Coombe who was anxious at one time to say: "I am neutral" but said instead: "I am putrid". He takes no sides, but whatever we do, according to the Deputy, is wrong. We are wrong to control prices; we are wrong to put on a standstill; we are wrong to remove the standstill. But the one thing that Deputy Childers stood for as being right was not the standstill of prices——
The method was wrong.
——but a standstill of wages. Do not forget that when we faced an emergency and when the Deputy was over here and I was over there their manner of meeting it was a wages standstill.
Major de Valera
There was price control as well.
Real price control.
Major de Valera
Effective price control.
It was a wages standstill with the hope like a carrot of a prices standstill. The wages standstill remained permanent but the prices standstill have yet to come. Nobody, not even Major de Valera, will say that there was a prices standstill from 1939 to 1946.
Major de Valera
There was from November, 1943, to February, 1947.
They came here with apologias in sackcloth and ashes to excuse increased costs year after year because of the rise in the cost of commodities, but when all the commodities were rising, wages continued pegged. They started by pegging wages, in hopes—and I do them that much justice—of pegging prices. We start at the other end.
Major de Valera
If the Minister will allow me, the prices rise did not start until after the Wages Standstill Order was removed in 1946.
Exactly—and your timing was very unfortunate there. You saw prices going to rise and you said: "Before prices rise we will peg down wages". I am not a Labour man, but I say it was the most inhuman and most brutal thing ever done.
That is a ridiculous statement to make.
Would the Deputy contain himself?
It is a ludicrous statement to make. The workers' wages were constantly increased.
I have listened to a lengthy debate and have listened to a diatribe from Deputy Childers's late boss without interruption, and I am at least entitled to reply without interruption. That is the difference between the policy on that side and on this. We start by taking a date, taking the prices on that date and saying we will freeze them as on that date and then we will look into it. We look into them and we see that there is a fair case for removing the prices freeze from certain groups of commodities, and we do that. Then we have the Deputies opposite throwing bouquets at the prices section of the Department of Industry and Commerce. That was an excellent body, highly trained, expert, most proficient at their work. Blab, hypocrisy, transparent dishonesty. Last November we had that prices section working, working as honestly, as expertly and as efficiently as is the characteristic of the Irish Civil Service, and what did we hear from those opposite? Denunciations with regard to the failure of that particular section of the Department to control prices.
Major de Valera
Did not those denunciations come from over there and not here?
That was the echo from over there.
Major de Valera
It came from Deputy Cowan, Deputy Lehane and others.
It was coming from the lips of Deputy Vivion de Valera, coming through the mouth of the Leader of his Party, coming from every Deputy over there, not only when they were in the House but with a greater degree of reckless irresponsibility when they were outside this House. We said: "Very well; public confidence is essential in the administration of the State. Let that body be as expert and efficient and competent as can be. The only justification for the charges that are made is on the grounds that the work is done behind closed doors. We will do it in the open." That body that was incompetent the day before immediately becomes the most competent and the most judicial body on this earth. I hate to see a great political Party melting——
Major de Valera
Is the Minister referring to Fine Gael?
——and melting through internal political corruption, just being eaten up by the maggot of political expediency. Stay put for a month at a time. Even if you stay put on any particular line for one month, you may cod some people that you are sincere some time. But as long as you keep changing with every cough from a person here and there, nobody can trust you and no one can look to you for relief. That is the reason why Fianna Fáil is going downhill all the time.
Have an election and see.
We had that price freeze criticised both ways. Deputy Childers says we were wrong to do it and also to remove it. That is apparently the line of his Party—you are wrong if you go right.
May I make a point of order? It is all very well for the Minister to misinterpret what I said before, but I said five minutes ago that it was to the method by which prices were frozen and de-frosted that we made objection.
The only thing wrong with the Deputy is that he scarcely ever has anything to say at the right time and when he has something to say at the right time it takes three interventions from him to explain exactly what he means to say. His difficulty is that he has to keep in line with a team which is completely out of step. Any poor Deputy in the middle of that kind of layout has my sympathy—so I will just give him my sympathy and spare him my criticism.
I expect, after the debate I have heard, that anything that might be said in relation to the Estimate before the House would be distinctly irrelevant as far as the debate goes and so I will be relevant in regard to the debate by merely recommending to the House that the Estimate be approved.
Vote put and agreed to.