asked the Minister for Social Welfare whether he will circulate the official actuarial report on the social welfare (insurance) scheme for the information of Deputies.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Actuarial Report.
Actuarial costings and considerations were incorporated in various memoranda prepared in my Department prior to the issue of the White Paper on social security and were used as the basis of costings. The principal points made appear in Part V of that paper which deals with statistics and finance.
May I ask whether there was not an actuary officially employed on the preparation of this scheme and whether that actuary made a report to the Minister; whether the report or whatever observations he made have been made fully available to the Dáil and, if not, does the Minister think that he is treating the House and the country properly by offering them a White Paper which has not available in it all the relevant material from an actuarial point of view?
As I informed the Deputy, actuarial costings and considerations were embodied in various memoranda forming part of the comprehensive consideration of the various aspects of the coverage provided for in the White Paper. The main features of the actuarial costings so ascertained were embodied in Part V of that paper and provide all the essential information the Deputy can reasonably require in the matter. The Deputy can rest assured that the costings in the White Paper are based on actuarial considerations by a competent actuary.
If that be so, what is the objection to placing all the figures and comments of the actuary before the House, as was done in the case of the British scheme?
Is that the recommendation now, that because the British did it we must do it?
The British did not conceal anything. I suggest the Minister is concealing important information from the House.
I suggest the Deputy is talking through his hat. All the costings were computed by a qualified actuary and these costings are embodied in various memoranda. The costings set out in the White Paper, and which form the basis of the Bill, are the costings made by a competent actuary employed in the Department of Social Welfare. Unless the Deputy wants to search the actuary's pockets, I do not know what further information he wants in the matter nor do I know whether he wants to question the professional qualifications of the actuary who made the costings.
I think the country is entitled to know what the cost of the scheme will be at different periods throughout its operation without Deputies being put to the necessity of asking questions like the next one on to-day's Order Paper.
I have given all that information to the Deputy before and I will give him more to-day, but the more he gets the less he appears to be able to understand it.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will state (1) the estimated expenditure on (a) benefits and (b) administration; (2) the estimated income from (a) employees' contributions; (b) employers' contributions; (c) dividends and (d) the State subsidy on contributions; and (3) the estimated deficiency of income in the 10th, 15th, 20th, 25th and 30th year after the social welfare (insurance) scheme shall have come into operation and, further, the estimated figures of maximum expenditure, income and deficiency under the above headings.
The estimated expenditure on benefits in the 1st and 5th years was given in paragraph 121 of the White Paper on "Social Security" and that in the 10th and 20th years in reply to a question by the Deputy on 21st February. No figures have been calculated for years later than the 20th year. On the basis of the best figures available, including the operation of the existing schemes, it was estimated that the cost of administration would be in the region of 12½ per cent. of the benefit expenditure. The estimated income from all sources was assumed to remain constant—see paragraphs 116 and 120 of the White Paper. With regard to part 3 of the Deputy's question, it has already been intimated that it is proposed to review at the end of five years the method of financing the scheme.
Has not the Tánaiste the information prepared by the actuary as to the extent of the deficiency over the period, at least up to 20 years, and why does he not give that information?
I have told the Deputy, and apparently I have to repeat it again, that it is stated clearly in the White Paper that we propose to review the position at the end of five years. The decisions that will be taken at the end of that period will determine the character of the scheme after that, and the financing of it.
Surely, before the House is asked to discuss this, we are entitled to know what the potential costs will be over the longest period for which the actuary can reasonably calculate?
It all depends on the policy to be pursued. This Government propose to operate the scheme until we have gained experience over a period of five years. Then we shall look at the matter in the light of the experience gained. There is provision for reviewing the whole financial structure in the light of the situation then existing, and in the light of our experience of the operation of the, scheme in the meantime.