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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Apr 1951

Vol. 125 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £9,387,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1952, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

I think, Sir, it would be appropriate in inaugurating this discussion if I permit myself to say: "Thanks be to God, spring has apparently at last made up its mind to come." We have so long lamented with Shelley that the winter wind continues to be a precursor, with the promised relief not showing on the horizon, that I think we might now fall back on Browning and, adapting his lines, say: "O! to be in Ireland, now that April is here." It is right, therefore, having expressed gratitude to Providence for the arrival of spring, to advert briefly to the fact that we have passed through an anxious and challenging autumn, winter and early spring, which period is unique in the meteorological history of this country, for that we have passed through the longest recorded period in history without more than 48 hours consecutive dry weather. It is true that, in certain months in previous years, there was a greater precipitation, but there is no previous record of a period extending from the 30th June to April which had in it no longer period than 48 hours without rain.

That, of course, has created great difficulties for the farming community and should evoke both sympathy and admiration for the exertions which the agricultural community have made, and are making, in an effort to catch up on the harvest which must unquestionably be three weeks late in the sowing. There is no use in blinding our eyes to the fact that we must anticipate repercussions of that in the autumn that lies ahead. Out of evil, however, one is legitimately entitled to seek some good. I think this good may, perhaps, be salvaged from the trying experience through which we have passed. One is, that the attention of farmers everywhere will be directed to the unique advantage of the use of silage in lieu of, or in addition to, the traditional practice of making hay.

In a country with an annual mean precipitation of 42 inches, it is clear that the foundation of our winter supplies of live-stock products should be of a character which can be made and saved without reference to the quality of the weather. It is now possible to make excellent silage from a variety of crops, amongst which one of the best is grass, good grass. It is now clear that we can make first-class silage, without the erection of extensive silos. by simply digging a pit and correctly ensiling the material available to it in such a pit, providing the compression of the contents is adequate, and providing it is covered suitably to protect it from the weather. Every acre of land so employed will provide the live-stock farmer with a larger yield of winter fodder than he could hope to get from it with any form of hay.

The second lesson that we may learn, with advantage, from our trying experience is the folly of pretending that, in a climate such as ours, we can with any degree of certainty depend on our domestic production of wheat for our essential bread supplies. With the best will in the world, it was not possible for the farmers of this country to sow the acreage of wheat for this year in spring that they would have wished to sow, because it simply was not possible to get the seed into the soil. There is still time, and there will be time until the end of April, safely to sow certain varieties of spring wheat. I know that very considerable acreages are at this moment being sown, but we should not lose sight of the fact that our circumstances make it a dangerous thing to pretend that our domestic resources can effectively provide for the bread requirements of our people under modern conditions. The wheat we elect to grow here in our rotations cannot ever be more than a part, more or less substantial, of our total wheat requirements, much of which will continue to be drawn from Canada, the United States, Australia and the Argentine, as circumstances and finance permit.

Now, as I adhere to my view that results are the best tests of policy, and that facts are the best arguments, I have taken the opportunity of offering to Deputies the paper which is on every Deputy's desk to-day setting out certain statistics and recording certain facts. It will be no harm, briefly, to recapitulate certain of the more striking changes which have taken place during the last 12 months. If we look, first, at the acreage of crops, and bear in mind the serious inclemency of the weather, it is not discouraging to find that out of 366,012 acres of wheat in 1950, we have collected into the mills as at to-day—these records speak only up to the 24th March—2,000,000 barrels of wheat, while an acreage of 579,646 of wheat in 1947 yielded us no more than 1,463,200 barrels.

The yield of oats and barley shows no striking variation, though it is interesting to see that in 1950 from 123,241 acres of barley, we had 119,000 tons of barley, whereas in 1947 from 145,983 acres of barley we had a return of no more than 88,300 tons. When we come, however, to the live-stock enumeration of the January census, the figures must be accepted with a certain reserve because they are not of the same exhaustive nature as the June census, but if there be any discrepancy in it we may assume that the discrepancy is approximately of the same dimensions in every year. It is interesting to note that, when this Government came into office in January, 1948, the total number of our cattle was 3,531,500 head which to-day is 3,910,600 head. Our sheep population in January, 1948, was 1,626,400 and is to-day 1,949,100, and is rising. Our total pig population in January, 1948, was 369,700, and is now 530,700. These figures include breeding sows the number of which was 39,700 in 1948, and is now 59,400.

I should like also to direct the special attention of the House to certain figures relating to our exports Our exports of cattle in 1947 were valued at £15,629,000, correct to the nearest £1,000, and in 1950 they were valued at £22,277,000. Our exports of poultry in 1947 were valued at £1,926,000 and in 1950, £3,916,000. Egg exports in 1947 were valued at £1,574,000 and in 1950, £5,146,000. Raw wool exports in 1947 were valued at £894,000 and in 1950, £3,516,000. Exports of bacon, hams, and other pig products in 1947 were nil and in 1950 were valued at £994,431. Exports of tinned beef in 1947 were valued at £753,000 and in 1950 at £1,541,000 Exports of chocolate crumb in 1947 were valued at £472,000 and in 1950, £2,785,000.

Deputies may wish to be informed of the present state of our stocks in connection with wheat for our bread supply and maize for our animal fodder supply. It is comforting to know that on 31st March, 1951, the wheat in stock, floated, loading and waiting to be loaded was 2,100,000 odd barrels and in respect of maize coming within the same categories we have 121,000 tons. This satisfactory situation would not be a source of equanimity unless we were satisfied as to the available storage waiting to keep it. In that connection, a careful survey of the storage has been proceeding and, in round figures, we count on having available in September, 1951, in silos at ports and mills and in storage at mills, merchants' and maltsters' emergency storage up and down the country approximately 421,000 tons of storage which represents approximately one year's wheat supply, were it all employed to that end.

In regard to the uneconomic fraction of that storage, I should tell the House that one of the principal difficulties is that, annexed to it, we have not got adequate drying facilities. To provide adequate fixed drying facilities at all points would not be feasible between now and harvest time. To surmount that, we are in process of acquiring four mobile drying plants which can be used to dry and fill one storage unit and then be transferred to another until all are filled with grain in a condition which we may depend on to keep.

It has been the policy of this Government since it took office primarily to seek for security for the farmers over a long term. Before dwelling on that in detail, the House may be intrigued to have one rather startling statistic about our exports of rabbits, because in the last six months it appears that we have shipped to Great Britain no less than 6,750,000 rabbits which have yielded the astonishing return of over £1,000,000. I cannot regard this as a very important contribution to the agricultural exports of this country and, if we could eliminate the rabbit altogether, it is an export which I would gladly see vanish. But, as between gassing them and burying their carcases and trapping them while their carcases furnish prime meat when we can collect £1,000,000 for them, on the whole I suppose it is as well to trap them while in prime condition, and to sell them, rather than engage in intensive destruction. I want, however, to make this quite clear to the House, that, if at any time the rabbit should expand to the dimensions of a pest on the agricultural industry of the country, despite the value that at present attaches to them, I would not hesitate to recommend to Oireachtas Éireann that an intensive destruction policy should be initiated with a view to wiping them clean off the face of the land.

I do not give that export statistic from the point of view of the income, but merely as an interesting thing to show what an extraordinary power of supply is inherent in an urgent demand accompanied by an adequate price. If there is a demand and a readiness to pay a reasonable price for a food of any kind, it can almost always be filled. But, if there is a demand from outside one's own domestic circle of the nation, despite the best endeavour, unless the price is commensurate with the effort required to produce foodstuffs, it cannot be made to come forth. From the rabbit shipment a lesson is to be learned; that if the consignee were prepared to pay for a very much more normal agricultural produce a price in any way comparable to the uncontrolled price which has been paid for the last six months for rabbits, the consequential exports of a normal agricultural produce to that destination would be proportionately growing. But instead of that I have to report with profound regret that they are rapidly declining in so far as eggs are concerned. Why it should be deemed expedient to pay 4/6 apiece for rabbits and 2d. apiece for eggs must be for ever a mystery to me. So long as that continues, those who desire to pay such a price will get rabbits and no eggs, and that is a result which affords me profound regret. I would prefer to ship eggs and rabbits to that consignee, but, if I were constrained to choose between the two, I would certainly prefer to consign expanding quantities of eggs rather than multitudes of trapped rabbits.

It has been the policy of this Government to secure for the farmers stability and a decent standard of living for those who own the land and those who work upon it. To secure that, it was necessary to get not only a good price but the assurance that over a long term, if they kept up the production of agricultural output, they had no reason to apprehend that there would be a consequential assault on price levels. I am glad to be able to report to the House that in respect of cattle, sheep and milk we have secured for the farmers over a long term guaranteed minimum prices which should enable them to know with certainty what the product of their labour will be worth when they bring it to market. I have every reason to hope that in the next two or three weeks we shall be able to provide a similar long-term guaranteed market for all the pigs that our people can produce at a price in or about 220/- per cwt. deadweight for bacon.

I have every confidence that the market available for fowl, chickens, hens and turkeys will be highly remunerative taking the long-term view; but I am obliged to state that in my considered judgment, unless the price available for eggs is of a character to attract the average countrywoman to increase the number of her flock and the output of eggs generally, there is very little prospect of any great expansion in our fowl exports. If the price of eggs were satisfactory and if the price of fowl continues satisfactory, as I believe it will, the potentialities of expansion are vast. But in the absence of a satisfactory price for eggs, I cannot see the supplies of fowl from this country being as great as we would wish to make them.

The purpose of circulating the White Paper which has been sent to Deputies is mainly to abbreviate the length of my observations in introducing this Estimate. I mean no discourtesy to the House if I do not follow the sub-heads closely, as I believe substantially all we want to know is furnished here. However, I am at their disposal to give them any further information they may require in the course of the debate. There are a few special matters to which I would like to draw the attention of Deputies before I conclude.

I am happy to report that the co-operative scheme for the growing, storing and marketing of apples based on Dungarvan is now under way and we have horticultural instructors operating in that area. The farmers seem to be enthusiastically joined in the enterprise and I am not without hope that with the new planting this year and next year, we shall pass the 500-acre mark and continue to expand. I think I have good reason for being sure that the class of apples produced under the supervision available there will equal the best that is to be had from any orchard in the world and will command for those who grow and market them a highly remunerative price. It is a particular source of satisfaction to me that the project is being carried out by the co-operative effort of the farmers so that my contribution requires to be no more than facilitating them in getting under way, and, my having done so, they will carry on themselves. That, of course, is the best way for an enterprise of that kind to be administered.

The scheme adumbrated by the Department last year, and since proceeding, for the suppression of contagious abortion in cattle is an unmeasured success, a greater success in this country than in any other country in the world. I am happy to report to the House that the results of last year's inoculation have been most satisfactory in suppressing contagious abortion in herds where heretofore it had been endemic. The demand for the services of inoculation is a striking tribute by the farmers to their own confidence in the plan.

I should like to tell the House now of an interesting experience we had in running to earth a veterinary problem which afflicted the West of Ireland for many generations. In the Gaeltacht a condition of "Brios Bruan" and "Galra Trua" had been long known as a scourge. Brios bruan resulted in a debility in cattle on the mainland for which the traditional remedy was to send them out to a neighbour on an island; strangely enough, on the islands the Galra Trua presented a somewhat analogous picture of debility in cattle, the traditional remedy for which was to send the cattle so afflicted to a neighbour on the mainland. The interesting thing was that both these venerable remedies were signally successful. If one has been reared and lived in the province of Connacht, as I have, one has a healthy respect for the traditional knowledge of the old people and, though it does not seem sometimes to be either logical or comprehensible, one comes to know that the old people do not do things just for fun. It seemed to me, however, with the resources we now have at our disposal, to be a somewhat inadequate procedure simply to bow our heads in deference to the old people and leave things as they were. It was an inconvenient arrangement for the people on the mainland to send their cattle to the island and it was often equally inconvenient for the people on the island to send their cattle to the mainland. Accordingly, I despatched a team of veterinary surgeons to the west to investigate these two conditions in an effort to find out if more convenient remedies could be devised.

After a careful search conducted by one of the most distinguished officers of my Department, we established that brios bruan was aphosphorosis plus copper deficiency; and Galra Trua was parasitic worms. I make no apology for delaying the House a moment to show how the extraordinary devices employed by the old people had precisely met these two difficulties. If the mainland beast was suffering from aphosphorosis the trouble was due to the fact that he had no access to phosphorus. A period of convalescence on the island meant that when the island neighbour received the cattle he allowed them to stray on the shore. The moment the cattle had access to the shore, they hastened to the seaweed beds and extracted from them such of the seaweed as was phosphorescent and ate it, thus restoring the phosphorus balance in their diet. The affected cattle from the island, who were suffering from Galra Trua, were suffering from parasitic stomach worms and, being on restricted grazing, every time they shook off the infestation they reinfested themselves because the droppings of cattle contain the stomach worm. While the cattle remained closely concentrated on infected land, no matter how often they threw off the infection they subsequently reinfested themselves by picking up the worm again in their grazing. But when the island cattle came ashore for their convalescence, they were turned out on the mountain and, as the range on the mountain was much too large ever to become densely infected as the smaller island pasturages did, the beasts threw off the infection on the mountain and did not become reinfected. After a short convalescence therefore on the mainland the beast was restored to health.

Unfortunately, because of lack of knowledge of the source of these troubles the island people used to bring their cattle back to the island following their cure and the mainland people brought their cattle back to the mainland whereupon they not infrequently developed the same symptoms all over again. Now that we have discovered the source of Galra Trua it has been possible for us to provide the people with hexachloroethane and phenothiazine and spray the land with sulphate of copper, thus destroying infestation of the land and curing chemically the condition of the beast. And we have been able on the mainland to provide the people with dicalcium phosphate which provides the necessary phosphate in the cattle's diet by giving them an occasional drink, and the trace of cobalt in their diet without which cattle suffer and sheep develop pine.

Nor is this the end of an interesting story, because those of us who were born west of the Shannon are familiar with the chronic affliction of the small farmer who brings his yearling calf to the fair and there is told that 10/- or £1 must be deducted because it is a "yalla-looking" calf. I was often troubled to know why the poor man had to suffer that deduction because his calf was "yalla". It is not really yellow but a rather poor orange red colour which is much disliked by those who deal in yearling cattle. The man who is relatively prosperous rarely has a "yalla" beast but the poor man frequently has. I thought that was a condition, seeing that it is an affliction of many of our poor neighbours, to which the veterinary research institution might appropriately turn their mind. With their customary skill and versatility, they did so and, by consultation with colleagues abroad and by their own exertions, they established that the quality of a "yalla" beast is cobalt deficiency and if anybody has a "yalla" calf and will consult the veterinary surgeon or the leaflet of the Department of Agriculture, he will find that, by administering cobalt in suitable quantities over the appropriate term, his "yalla" calf will turn into a dazzling mahogany yearling, with material financial advantage to himself and to his neighbour, and with the utterly gratifying result that, when he brings the beast to the fair, his blushes will be spared because there is nothing more embarrassing than to stand in the market place or fair green with a "yalla" calf and to have every helpful neighbour in the countryside saying: "That is a nice calf, but he is very ‘yalla'." I do not know if the House shares my satisfaction in the isolation of these simple problems which most people consider to be beneath the attention of the great, but I think these things matter much more to our people in their everyday life than the wider policies which perhaps may sound more becoming on the lips of the political head of one of our largest Departments of State.

I want to say a word, too, about the marketing of fowl and turkeys. Last autumn, the welkin was made to ring by every fowl buyer and turkey dealer in Ireland that a most cruel and savage outrage was being perpetrated on this disinterested body of men because we were canalising fowl exports through Eggsports, Limited. They pointed out that freedom, Magna Charta, the Bill of Rights and all the foundations of human liberties were being struck at by our failure to give them a free field. I thought they were wrong. To tell the truth, my primary interest was to see that the producer got a suitable and remunerative price. If the fowl dealers could get a living handling the stuff, they were very welcome to it, so far as I was concerned, but the first and all-essential aim with me was to see that those who reared the birds got paid for them. I fixed the price at 4/- per lb. for turkeys. In the early part of the autumn, there was no doubt that turkeys were making up to 6/- and 6/6 per lb. and there was loud lamentation, but, about a fortnight before Christmas, the market broke in London and turkeys fell to 2/6.

If we had not canalised exports, what would have been the position? The dealers would have paid up to 6/- for turkeys in the first two weeks in December, and, when the market broke, they would have had on their hands thousands of pounds weight of turkeys at 6/6, and they would have had two weeks between then and Christmas to recover their losses. Those whose turkeys had to be marketed between 14th and 24th December would have had not only to take the lower price obtained on the British market, but would have had to suffer a levy as well to recover the mistakenly high price paid in the early part of the season and the people in the latter two weeks in December would have got, perhaps, 1/9 per lb. for their turkeys. In the process, many fowl dealers would have been wiped out. By canalising exports, everybody got 4/- per lb.; every fowl buyer and dealer in Ireland got a modest but reasonable margin of profit; and nobody suffered any loss. I think that, having stood all the abuse in October, November, and December, I am entitled to that moment of recrimination, now that April is here.

The ground limestone problem, I think, is now reaching a solution through the scheme at present in operation whereby any farmer anywhere in Ireland can have as much ground limestone as his land requires delivered to his farm or to the nearest point thereto on a hard road at 16/- per ton in bulk in six-ton lots. But I am conscious that we have become so well accustomed to amenity in rural Ireland that the absence of spreading facilities has caused uneasiness. Fortunately, we have been able to solve that problem as well. Ground limestone, unlike burned lime, is storable in the open and does not deteriorate if rain should fall upon it. In fact, for spreading, some people will say that it is better to allow it to weather in the open for some time. We propose, and the appropriate advertisement will appear in the newspapers in the course of the next ten days, to make available, on the basis of one-third grant and one-third loan, the purchaser putting up the remaining one-third from his own money, suitable lime-spreading machinery to cost £250 per unit, which I hope country boys will get their fathers to buy for them, so that they may provide for their neighbours the service of spreading the lime which the limestone grinding company has deposited in their yard. It is a good way to do it, to decentralise it. It provides a good living for the chap who wants to engage in the contract business, spreading lime at one time of the year, ploughing at another, and reaping at a third time of the year for reward, for his neighbours, and it brings within the reach of the smallest farmer amenities which could not possibly be provided on the basis of the small farmer buying the machinery for his own use. I should much prefer—pace Deputy Hickey—to see a man being his own boss and working for himself rather than being employed by the State or by anybody else. This device is designed to multiply the number of young persons in rural Ireland who will develop into independent contractors, working for themselves, in one sense of the word and for their neighbours, in another.

Or through the co-operative societies.

I put no limits, but my primary concern is to persuade young people to set up in rural Ireland working for themselves, in one sense of the word, and for their neighbours, in another. I trust that Deputies will spare my blushes when they come to comment on my foresight in having secured 100,000 tons of superphosphate at the lowest price at which super was sold in Europe during the past few months for our farmers. If we had not secured that additional 100,000 tons of superphosphate, the resources of our fertiliser industry being extended to their full capacity would have fallen far short of our minimum requirements.

I would like to mention the feeding of live stock in this country, a matter which has been indissolubly associated in the minds of our people with dependence on outside sources of supply, but every obstacle to securing adequate supplies of suitable feeding stuffs from our domestic resources has now at last been successfully surmounted. We can now grow on our own land the Ymer barley, the potatoes, the oats, the raw material of the white pollard and skimmed milk which provides for any class of live stock in this country not only an adequate but a dietetically complete ration. There are areas in which skimmed milk is not universally available, and, unless an alternative source for protein were available, I could not make the boast which I have just made. It gives me satisfaction to inform the House that one meat-meal factory is in operation in Cahir, County Tipperary, and in the West of Ireland, a meat-meal factory is in course of construction which will be adequate in capacity and source of supply to cater for all the protein requirements of the live stock in this country in the foreseeable future.

There is an interesting development in beet, because if it proves to be what I believe it will be an adequate substitute for the diet of the pig. It will mean that the day when it was necessary for women to cook for pigs is done. We will be able to provide pigs with a full and balanced diet, fodder beet taking the place of potatoes, Ymer barley taking the place of maize and skimmed milk providing the protein. If, on top of all this, we can eliminate on our small holdings the traditional necessity for sitting up for three or four nights after a sow has farrowed by making available to all on reasonable terms farrowing boxes, we will have removed from the business of pig breeding two of the most difficult problems with which we have hitherto been faced.

So long as we have 220/- per cwt. guaranteed minimum price, there is available to the smallest farmer in Ireland a form of production to which there do not seem to be any absolute or necessary limits, because when the pig on the farm has consumed all the pollard, beet and barley, oats and potatoes that he produces, there is no difficulty about his buying additional supplies of domestic or foreign products. We should never consent to the folly of assuming that our livestock production must be limited by the capacity of our own lands to produce fodder. When our domestic produce is extended to the full we should supplement it by the importation of raw material for conversion, just as the manufacturer imports cotton for spinning and the brewer imports hops to brew into beer.

I want to say a special word about butter. The capacity of our people to consume butter is frankly taxing our resources. The last time we produced over 700,000 cwt. of butter, we exported 400,000 cwt. of butter to Great Britain; they paid us 53/- per cwt. and we paid them 83/- per cwt to eat it. We are now producing over 700,000 cwt. of butter but our own people are eating it, more power to their elbow. I have reached a point where I have done my level best to ensure that the domestic ration will be maintained, but until our own full supply of butter comes along, people will have to take whatever butter we can give them for the next six weeks. I have gone to the limit of effort to give everybody Irish butter on their ration. The fact of the matter is that Irish butter is not there, and they will have to be satisfied to get a mixture of Irish butter and imported butter, until Irish production catches up on the demand. It is a fantastic situation on which we have every reason to congratulate ourselves that our own people are so well off that they are eating us out of house and home. I am going to give them the best butter that money can buy. I did say, and substantially performed up to recently, that the distribution of Irish butter would be on the basis of fifty-fifty. I want to explain to the people that if, from now until the middle of May, they cannot get a fiftyfifty proportion of Irish butter, they should blame me and, if they want to blame me, my only answer is that if they do not like it they can lump it.

Another feature to which I have to refer is a scheme for water supplies to farms. I hope that a growing number of farmers will avail of this service. It is there open and available to everybody who has not running water in his kitchen. We want them to provide for it. The scheme provides 50 per cent. grant of the total expenses of bringing the water into the kitchen.

I do not want to dwell too long on the land rehabilitation project, but I think the House will be interested to know that I have decided to call in, after kind consultation with the Government of Holland, a Dutch engineer to give us an expert opinion on the estuarine marsh problem as a pilot experiment. I wish I could tell Deputy O'Grady that it was in Clare, but the first pilot scheme we propose to embark upon is the reclamation of the flooded land at Tramore.

That falls into two degrees, so to speak. When we have carefully surveyed and investigated it, we shall be able to make up our minds as to whether we shall confine ourselves to reclamation of that racecourse or go further afield and aim at the reclamation of the whole area of the back strand. That involves a certain agricultural survey, to see whether we can make of that larger area land which it would be reasonably economic to reclaim. In so far as the racecourse area itself is concerned, it is rather more of an urban than a rural amenity factor that is to be considered and we are satisfied that it would be prudent and reasonable to carry out the lesser enterprise of keeping back the sea from it. While we aim—and I hope we may be able to do that—at reclaiming the whole of the back strand, we must bear in mind the question—we are getting the very best technical advice on it—as to whether the sea barrier would be of sufficient substance to hold out the sea from frontal encroachment. All these matters arise in one form or another in every estuarine marsh problem on which we propose to embark. We shall seek in this pilot case to familiarise ourselves with the best technical advice we can command on all of these points, agricultural and engineering, attendant on such problems, so that we may turn with confidence to similar problems in other parts of the country when we have the trained personnel, the experienced engineers and agriculturists, to guide us.

I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Board of Works has afforded the Department of Agriculture its invaluable co-operation in dealing with a number of rivers which stand half-way between the main drains and the arterial river. One river is the Blackwater in Monaghan, the Rye in Kildare and the Boyle River in Roscommon. Having disposed of these three, we intend to go on to deal, one after another, with such field drainage as may be required. In that work we have, by arrangement with the Board of Works, provided three survey parties, over and above the survey parties associated with the arterial drainage division of the Board of Works. Deputies know that the Board of Works are themselves at present engaged in arterial drainage of the Corrib, the Glyde and Dee— the plans for which were made under our predecessors' supervision—and the Brosna. We now propose to put survey teams on the Boyne and, I hope, on the Moy in Mayo; and, I think, on a river in Kerry. About the Moy, I wish to speak a word. I have been giving the Moy very careful attention myself and the engineers of the Board of Works have been there, examining every aspect of the problem there pertaining. There is no solution of the Moy flooding by removing the rock or by plugging or picking at it. The Moy must be dealt with as a unitary. It may involve the building of locks on Lough Cullin and Lough Conn. It certainly constitutes a unitary drainage problem and that is the way it is going to be done. The survey authority will start on it this year. Living as close to the Moy as anyone, and closer than Deputy Commons——

I walked every yard of it.

Were not my people born in a house on the Moy—the house which is at present the convent in Foxford— so I ought to know? It flowed under the drawing-room floor of my grandmother's house, where I spent many a long day, and I am familiar with the difficulties that appertain there. I know that it would evoke a certain amount of enthusiasm amongst the neighbours if I went ahead with the dissipation of public money in making new and handsome gestures. I am concerned to relieve my neighbours from the perennial inundation of land by the Moy.

What about that area so dear to the Minister's heart and to mine, the Erne?

To what does the Deputy refer with regard to the Erne?

What has the Minister to say regarding it, the area which should be so dear to his heart and mine?

I do not quite understand the question which the Deputy has in mind. Does he refer to the electrical project?

I thought the Minister was making a speech on arterial drainage, although I was not aware of any item in this Estimate for that purpose. However, I have no objection to that, provided the Minister can say something about the area in which he and I have a special interest.

The Deputy has not quite followed me. The Chair, I presume, will see that I keep strictly to the terms of relevance. I am trying to explain that, quite apart from the arterial drainage works proceeding under the Board of Works, under a system of drainage in which the Board of Works is entitled to act on an agency basis for the Department of Agriculture, they are carrying out medium drainage projects and actually undertaking arterial surveys at our expense, which will be available for them when their arterial drainage machinery is available to embark on it.

The Deputy asks me about the Erne and what I have to say about it. The answer is nothing, as I am not briefed to deal with that problem here and now. I take it he is referring to the Erne catchment area, where the electricity works are, at Ballyshannon, that he refers to those rivers, the head waters of which——

The Anna Lee, the Dromore and those tributaries of it.

The Dromore is a matter of continual interest for the people of Ballybay and along down the catchment. I am not directly concerned with the work undertaken there, except in consultation with the electrical authority. As I understand it, some difficulty arises in respect of some points in that catchment area with the authorities north of the Border, but if the Deputy should, in the course of his observations, require any information, I would be happy to tell him and will provide it when the time comes to close the debate, or sooner, if he wants it.

The last thing I would mention is something which has been dear to my heart for a long time, that is, the parish plan. I do not want to dwell unduly on certain unfortunate incidents which transpired, but suffice it to say that my effort to inaugurate the parish plan last year was frustrated. I now propose to close that chapter and I have published a new advertisement asking for applications for positions as parish agents. If my plans are not again frustrated, I hope to inaugurate the parish plan this year, albeit 12 months too late. The House will want to know what I have done in respect of the parish plan designed specially for the congested areas. The answer is that an examination is now in course of preparation, as it was felt that we ought to make the established posts of parish agents available for competition not only to the agricultural overseers and assistant overseers in the congested areas but also to the farm buildings supervisors within and without the congested areas. For that reason, it was necessary to hold up the examination to prepare a rather more comprehensive one than that at first envisaged. That will take some little time to prepare. I think the position now is that applications for admission to the examination are in course of being received and as soon as they are received the examination will be held. If my memory serves me aright, there will be posts for 100 parish agents. Most of the other candidates will have the option of securing unestablished employment under the land rehabilitation project where they failed to meet all the special requirements of parish agents, whose work applies primarily in the congested areas. I want to say that there are excellent men who will not qualify for the position of parish agent in congested areas, not for want of proficiency in their general knowledge and capacity but because they have no knowledge of the peculiar conditions obtaining in the congested areas and those who have such knowledge would naturally take precedence in a competition, the primary purpose of which would be to get agents in congested areas.

If there is any information which I have inadvertently overlooked communicating to the members of the House, they have only to ask for it and I shall be glad to provide it to the best of my ability.

Will the Minister deal now with the export potato problem?

I shall, though I think the Deputy will probably understand me when I tell him that this is a matter in respect of which the less said at present the soonest mended. I do not think we have any serious problem in regard to seed potatoes. The seed potato crop—Arran Banner and Arran Pilot—has been satisfactorily sold. The Kerr's Pink variety is more for the domestic trade.

The seed potato problem in Donegal was raised in this House last week. I am particularly interested in the ware potato. We have exported only 6,000 tons and the British do not seem to be prepared to take any more.

The seed potato position at present causes me no anxiety. I think the bulk of it has been absorbed. Always, towards the end of the year, people begin to get apprehensive lest the particular quantity they have will not be taken. I have no reason to apprehend that we will have any serious surplus of seed potatoes.

I shall deal now with the question of ware potatoes and I shall take the House frankly into my confidence though I should prefer not to at this stage—but maybe the Deputy is as wise as I am. Originally, we agreed with the British Ministry of Food to sell them 50,000 tons of ware potatoes. Last autumn, the House will remember, the strongest representations were made here — particularly by Deputy Cogan and Deputy O'Reilly of Cavan—that there was a danger of a famine in the spring and that all the live stock would die of starvation. I could not foresee that that would take place but I thought it better to be prudent and accordingly I cancelled 20,000 tons of the British contract. That left us in the position that we had to deliver 30,000 tons to the British. The British trade is largely a fish and chip trade and for that they like a large round potato or indeed a medium-sized round potato.

Is it correct to say that last year we actually cancelled 20,000 tons of that 50,000 ton contract?

Were no other efforts made by us to fill that contract or, if other efforts were made by us, what were they?

I did not want to fill it.

You just abruptly terminated the contract with the British?

By mutual consent. If the Deputy will have patience and hear me out, he will see that Providence was on my side. I was now down to 30,000 tons. I wanted to keep the other 20,000 here at home lest there should be a shortage for the live stock in the spring. I promised the House that there would be enough foodstuffs in the country to feed the live stock. Accordingly, there was no question of a difference with the Ministry of Food. I have always found the British Ministry of Food most reasonable and fair to deal with in regard to any matters of that kind and there was no difficulty at all in adjusting the quantity. The time came to deliver the 30,000 tons. We sent a few shipments to Great Britain. Then the Ministry of Food notified us that there was a cargo at Cardiff which they would not accept. We asked them why they would not accept it and they contended that it was not fit for human consumption because the percentage of boast potatoes in the consignment was too high. "Boast" is a condition which we used always associate with exceptionally large round varieties of potatoes as opposed to kidney-shaped potatoes. The Arran Banner variety is peculiarly suitable for the fish and chip trade because it is round, and in that variety you sometimes get a boast condition. No agricultural scientist knows the reason for that condition.

The older people—and again, may I direct the attention of the House to the wisdom of the old people—incline to the view that if you get a dry period in the early part of the growing season and very wet weather for the remainder of the season you are liable to get a high percentage of boast potatoes. That may be true but nobody quite knows why it seems to be certain that the tendency of the structure of the centre of the potato to break down and leave a hole in the middle is associated with certain varieties more than with others—and Arran Banners seem to be peculiarly susceptible to it. Our problem was that, though we knew of this condition and had experience of it, it was always associated with exceptionally large potatoes. I am obliged at this stage to say that this year there seems to be a higher incidence of this defect in the 2¾ inch and 3 inch potatoes than we have ever known before.

With regard to the Cardiff consignment, it was agreed that the British Ministry of Food should dispose of the potatoes and that the matter should go to arbitration. We maintained that the potatoes were fit for human consumption whereas the British said that they were not fit for human consumption. We maintained that the defect, which no human skill could ascertain before the potatoes were packed and despatched, was not a defect within the meaning of the contract, which envisaged a defect due to injury or careless handling or something of that kind, or possibly disease which would render the potatoes unfit for human consumption. That issue is at arbitration on a perfectly friendly basis between us and the British Ministry of Food.

But there remains a large amount of the potatoes. I turned my mind to the question of what I was going to do with them. Suppose I sent them to Great Britain and staked my chance on arbitration, and it went against me, they would then be liable to be disposed of to alcohol factories and the difference charged to me.

Would the district of origin have anything to do with the condition?

I am obliged to say that in certain districts the incidence may appear to be higher than in other districts, but, in respect of that variety, the incidence of boast this year is much higher than is was in any previous year in our experience. I fully appreciate that Deputy Aiken is not anxious to make my task in connection with the arbitration more difficult. Accordingly, I suggest that it would be more advantageous if we allowed this matter to rest until we have arrived at the appropriate adjustment. However, now that it is opened it is as well to open the whole thing. I propose, therefore, to grapple with the situation as best I can and to take such steps as I can best devise to protect the growers as far as I can from the consequences from any defect in their ware potatoes which nothing Deputy Aiken would have done would have averted, but which they on their side must recognise as a serious defect.

Whether it is a defect within the meaning of the contract is another thing and I intend to the best of my ability to show that it is not a defect referred to in the contract. I propose to hold my ground as long as I can in saying that there is nothing wrong with the potatoes. That is my attitude vis-á-vis the Ministry of Food but I cannot keep up that attitude for ever. I will hold that it is not a defect within the meaning of the contract but the matter will go to the arbitrator. If I had held my front sufficiently on that perhaps we would have made a deal but, perhaps, it is all for the best, on the whole. The arbitrator will decide whether to allow the Cardiff lot or to stop the Cardiff lot. I am not in a position at the moment to say what will be the best means to protect the grower but I hope in so far as the 30,000 tons are concerned for which the contract was entered into to protect the growers and the dealers against the greater part of any loss they would have suffered if they had to suffer unsupported the consequences of their ware being rejected on the contract requirements and if they had to dispose of it through some other channel. I do not know if that covers the matter as fully as the Deputy wishes?

Would the Minister answer this question: I am informed that there is a surplus of 2,000 tons of Arran Banners in the Cooley district and no buyer for them? What are they going to do with those 2,000 tons?

My answer to the Deputy is that he is as familiar as my friend Deputy Coburn is with my friends in Cooley and Deputy Coburn is never behindhand in raising a loud hullabaloo in good time. I have exactly the same representation from Donegal, Mayo and Galway to all of which I reply that in so far as the potatoes were potatoes grown under the Ministry of Food contract measures are being devised which I hope will substantially relieve the growers and dealers from the greater part of any loss which they might reasonably anticipate if they were required to dispose of their ware through whatever channel they could find. I cannot go beyond that at the present time but I hope that the plans which I will operate will in fact effectively meet the legitimate expectations of the people of Cooley, Donegal, Galway and Mayo.

I put Deputy Cogan to sleep, I see.

Will the Minister discuss the matter with the potato growers before doing anything?

Certainly.

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

Before dealing with a few aspects of agriculture, I should like to say a few words of encouragement to farmers who, as the Minister states, find themselves this spring in a very backward condition because of the weather we have been experiencing. Listening to what the Minister had to say on the subject, I could not help thinking of the years 1946 and 1947, which were very difficult years, too. In 1947, we had a special discussion on the subject because, as Deputies will remember, most of our land had been covered with snow for a period of seven or eight weeks which, I think, extended into the mouth of the month of April. When the Minister attributes all sorts of dire results to this Party's activities, he sometimes conveniently forgets the attitude of the members of the Opposition during those years. No purpose will be served by our going into these matters now, but one might point out that 1946-47 and 1950-51 are in some respects comparable. It is noticeable that in his approach to this Estimate and in dealing with agricultural matters with county committees of agriculture and otherwise, the Minister always selects 1947 as the year on which to base comparisons with 1948, 1949 and 1950. Deputies supporting the Government do the same.

To-day the Minister has warned us that this year and in the future we must not expect the sort of effort from our farmers which they made in years gone by. There is one test to apply to these two years, 1946-7 and 1950-1; late and all as the spring of 1947 was, when you look at the figures showing the acreage under wheat, oats, potatoes and other crops circulated by the Minister you naturally say to yourself: "There must have been a tremendous amount of enthusiasm somewhere during that year; there must have been a tremendous amount of energy on the part of the farmers; a tremendous amount of encouragement must have been given to them when they were able to achieve such an acreage as the Minister has given in this White Paper." We will, at a later stage, be able to see where that energy has gone to; we will be able to ask ourselves if, as a result of the Minister's own policy, that energy has increased amongst the agricultural community, or if it has decreased.

There is another aspect of this matter that, I think, should be examined, too. For some years past the Minister has been very prone to recommend to farmers the advisability of mechanising their farms. I remember here—I do not know exactly in which year of his period of office it was—saying to the Minister that the worst of arguing with him on this question is that he is so full of enthusiasm for mechanisation that he drives those who are doubtful to the other end, and he succeeds, perhaps, in misrepresenting them before the community at large as men who have no vision and as men who do not want to lift farmers out of the sort of rut in which they have been living, and in which many of them still find themselves, in so far as work on the land is concerned.

I think, from what we have seen of the last three or four months—I am not speaking, I suppose, with a knowledge of what is taking place in any wide area in the country, but I am speaking for the area I know best, and this is something on which I have been thinking since we were previously discussing the advisability of mechanisation— those farmers, where the land is wet and heavy, who have been depending upon tractors and other forms of mechanisation, have been, in the main, unable to get on with their work. While I agree, having regard to the difficulties of securing labour, having regard to labour costs and a number of other factors, that mechanisation would be a very desirable thing, I believe that, in my district anyhow, it has been established that as regards farmers who are the owners of heavy land—in this part of the world where we get such a volume of rain—it is very doubtful if the use we would like to see made of tractors can, in fact, be made with any certainty, and I believe that farmers who depend entirely upon mechanisation will find themselves, as do many farmers that I know, with very little land broken up at this stage.

I agree that while that is an argument against the use of tractors and all the rest, you have to admit when the weather does take up that there is an enormous amount of work that you can do quickly with them. We must remember, however, seasons such as the one we have just gone through, 1950-51, and when we think, as I have pointed out, how we were faced with the same sort of situation only three years back, it makes us wonder if we can do as apparently they have succeeded in doing in other countries—if we can develop along the mechanised lines that have been spoken of here with such wonderful enthusiasm by the Minister on a number of occasions.

When we try to speak words of encouragement to people engaged on the land, especially because of these circumstances over which neither the Minister nor any of us has any control, I cannot help expressing the hope that the Minister will bring his influence to bear upon members of this House who are supporting the Government and who have seen fit to select this opportunity to call a strike of agricultural workers.

Hear, hear!

I have no doubt the people who are working on the land have the same right as any other organised section to strive as best they can to improve their conditions but, at the same time, I cannot help saying that I regret very much that this particular time of the year and this particular season should be seized upon to indulge in a strike or to engage in strike action.

They have not struck yet, have they?

I understood they have.

In some areas, perhaps not in Meath?

In County Dublin.

Do not worry too much about County Dublin, Deputy; it will look after itself.

I worry about the whole country. When talking about the circumstances of the present season, I suppose I may as well say just a few words now in connection with this whole question of tillage and the Minister's policy in regard to it. In his opening remarks he made some reference to the difficulties farmers will experience in laying down wheat. In that regard did it not occur to the Minister that, if he was seriously thinking of wheat as a crop this year, any announcement he thought fit to make in regard to it should be postponed until the month of April? If the Minister was serious in trying to induce our farmers, bad and all as the season was, to lay down a reasonable area under that crop, surely to goodness the time to make an announcement as to the conditions under which that crop would, when harvested, be marketed, should be somewhere around September, October or November of last year? I am at a loss to know what purpose could be served by telling farmers on the 1st April that they were going to get an increased price for the wheat they would produce in 1951, and how it could have been difficult for the Minister to see the need for a revision of the wheat price, having regard to the price at which oats and barley were sold.

In any part of the world oats was making from £3 to £4 a barrel of 14 stone. That being the case, if we wanted to have an increased area under wheat, it would beat the ordinary man's understanding to see why farmers were asked to grow wheat at a price of 62/6 per 20-stone barrel. If there is one thing more than another, one subject more than another, on which the present Minister can be attacked and in respect of which he has no defence whatever, it is the whole question of tillage. We, here, who know the Minister well, realise that when he came into office he took a devilish delight—I do not believe that he had the slightest suspicion as to the consequences that would follow from the course he was pursuing at the time— in preaching a certain gospel to farmers, because he thought he was speaking to and cultivating the support of, a certain section of farmers who, undoubtedly, were hostile to the policy that this House and the Government were obliged to pursue during the war years. Deputies remember the dramatic way in which that policy was departed from in 1948. I have always contended, and I am convinced, that no greater disservice was ever done to our people than was done by that abrupt change in agricultural policy which was effected by the present Minister on his coming into office. The peculiar point about it is that he had announced—I believe it was in this House the announcement was made— that a new Minister for Agriculture should not behave like a bull in a china shop. That seemed all right but his performance was certainly not in keeping with that statement.

I am not saying this in order to excuse myself for the extent to which the Government had to go during those difficult years in order to secure our food supply but I maintained at that time and I still maintain that, whether we had gone too far or far enough, having regard to the amount of money that farmers were induced to invest, the amount of effort and organisation they had put into the tillage drive during all those years, the wise policy for the Minister who is now responsible for agriculture to follow, if he thought he should depart from that policy, was to taper it off gradually so that those who had invested money would have an opportunity of securing a reasonable return and so as to ensure, in a difficult world supply situation, as even then existed, we would be in a position to look after ourselves and our live stock in a reasonable way.

I shall not cite or produce here all the arguments advanced by the Minister for his policy, which has left us in the position in which we now find ourselves. One speech that I can always remember as having the most damaging effect on tillage farmers was the speech made by the Minister in his constituency in July, 1948, when he told the farmers, who were awaiting the harvest of 1948, that he would import unlimited quantities of maize at £1 a cwt. I know hundreds of farmers who, taking the Minister seriously and accepting his word, naturally and, I would say, very wisely, determined that, if foreign feeding stuff could be imported at that price, there was no point whatever in their continuing with the tillage policy. Instead of making what I would regard as a sensible approach, the Minister set out by all the eloquence at his command to cultivate the impression that we were a Party composed of men who wanted to meddle in the farmers' affairs, who wanted to tell the farmers what to do and, not only to tell them, but to compel them. With all the ballyhoo that went on, farmers who, in the normal way, were accustomed to tillage, became sick of it and there is growing evidence from the Minister's own figures year after year, of a decline in tillage.

I saw an advertisement—maybe it was not an advertisement—but I read an assurance given within the last few weeks by the Minister to farmers that unlimited supplies of seed wheat were available to those who wanted to sow spring varieties. I confess that I am speaking for an area in which very little wheat is commercially grown, but I could mention to the Minister half a dozen towns in which a farmer would not get a single stone of seed wheat. Not a single stone of seed wheat was available this year in half a dozen important towns that I know and I can tell the Minister also that I met farmers who were looking for seed wheat who could not find it.

I am not contending that there was not, taking the country as a whole, seed wheat available sufficient to meet perhaps all our requirements and more, but it was because of the lateness— the lateness of the Minister's interest in the wheat crop—that merchants in these areas naturally thought it a waste of effort, a waste of time and a waste of money to put in even the smallest stocks of seed wheat.

Would the Deputy give me the names of the towns in which there was a shortage?

I shall. Cootehill, County Cavan.

And the others?

Ballyconnell, Belturbet and Arva. I do not know how many that is.

Well, in these four anyhow.

I shall get a report on these at once.

The Minister cannot really expect results suddenly to accrue from some announcement made from Merrion Street as to what the farmer should do and what crop he should grow, having regard to the interest of the community. There has to be, as there was in 1947, a certain preparation such as produced in 1947 an acreage of 579,000 odd acres even though, as I say, the lands of the country were sealed over with snow and frost for eight weeks and it was only in the month of April that farmers had an opportunity of breaking land to enable them to lay down their crops. I think myself that it is not fair to blame the Minister for Agriculture alone because of his failure in this regard. After all, he was only one of 13, and I would have expected that the Government as a whole would have taken an interest in these matters, but on whomsoever the responsibility rests, be it the Minister himself or the Government as a whole, there is no line in which their failure has been so crushing, so expensive and so dangerous from the community point of view, as their policy in this regard.

There are two or three matters with which I am anxious to deal, and in respect of which the Minister has also made some observations. One is eggs. I shall, if I can in the few words I have to say on the subject, endeavour to clear up the position as I honestly and truthfully know it. My reason for referring to this subject at all is because of the efforts of the Minister, not during his speech on this Estimate but efforts in this House and outside it for some time past, to create the impression that I was responsible, by negotiating the agreement in 1947 with the British, for leaving him as my successor with a certain legacy with which he found it impossible to deal effectively. It is true that an agreement was made with the British in 1947; it is true that following the making of that agreement in 1947, and because of its provisions, the present Minister for Agriculture who was then a member of the Opposition, was critical of it. It is also true that the Leader of Fine Gael expressed himself as being hostile to that agreement. I believe I am justified in saying that both Deputy Dillon and Deputy Mulcahy, as they then were, expressed the view in 1947, following the making of that agreement, that the poultry industry was being placed on home assistance.

I am going, before I conclude my case in regard to the agreement of 1947 dealing with eggs, to place on record. I hope, facts that cannot be refuted. It was only a short time afterwards—the exact period was from October, 1947 until February, 1948— that Deputy Dillon became Minister for Agriculture. It was understandable and I am not making any complaint against the Minister, on that account, that he should have expressed criticism in 1947 of the agreement on eggs. I know that, being a private Deputy at that time, he could not be in possession of all the facts to which one would have to have regard, before one could really express a balanced judgment on the terms of the agreement. As I say I have no fault to find with the criticism expressed by Deputy Dillon up to the point that he himself became Minister for Agriculture. Having become Minister for Agriculture he was then in a position to have a look at the whole background of the making of that agreement—how it came about and how it came to contain all its provisions. Apparently, he had a look at it, and he must have had discussions with the officials who were largely responsible for negotiating it because, speaking in this House on his first Estimate in 1948, on the 9th July, at column 2065, he said what I am going to quote for the House in a moment. He had just given us a long speech telling us of the advantages of a trade agreement which the House had not had an opportunity of discussing, and he came to eggs and to the egg agreement negotiated in my time. This is what he had to say:—

"I do not think it is necessary to dwell at length on the necessity for expanding our fowl industry. My predecessor in office negotiated in London an agreement relating to the price for eggs and the development of the fowl and egg industry. There was some misunderstanding about the terms of that agreement which, I think, should be made more clear, particularly as I myself was perhaps responsible for a part of that misunderstanding. It was stated at the time that the British Government were giving us a grant to use in this country for the development of the Irish fowl industry and the production of fowl and eggs. I cannot deny that, during the election campaign, I myself demurred to that, and said: ‘This is a very peculiar procedure; why should the British Government give us a grant to develop our own fowl industry; what business have they in coming in here to bestow benefices on this country any more than any other country in the world'? I would make it clear that it was necessary for the Government at the time to announce the price agreed with the British Government in that form for certain reasons associated with other trade agreements that Government was at that time negotiating with other parties. Substantially, what happened was that 5/- more on the published price was, in fact, secured from the purchaser for our egg production. In so far as the Minister succeeded in doing that, he is deserving of our congratulations and those of the egg producers of this country for the bargain he struck. We are doing our best to develop and, possibly, in the later stages of the bargain to improve the terms which, in the circumstances, I feel sure it was impossible for him to grapple with in respect of the more remote years of the agreement's currency.

The agreement itself is one on foot of which, I think, we ought to be able to expand very largely indeed our egg industry. I want to say this, Sir, in public. I had occasion to use a form of words during the recent London negotiations that made some pressmen say that it was our intention under the existing agreement to ‘Drown the English in eggs'. One of the remarkable consequences of that was that everyone keeping a hen in England was thrown into hysteria and represented to the British Minister of Agriculture that they were going to be swept away when the flood of eggs came."

My point in raising this matter, and in giving that extract, is to place on the records of this House the facts in regard to it, and to end for all time, in so far as I can, this habit and this policy of the Minister in going before county committees of agriculture on which there is no one who is equipped with these facts and able to challenge him upon some of the statements he makes. But, out of the Minister's own mouth, I have shown that he was critical of the agreement until, as Minister, he came to see the reason for the making of it, and until, at a later stage, it became his responsibility as Minister to talk to the British in regard to egg prices when, as a result of the agreement to which I have been referring, the industry rapidly expanded and production increased. The Minister himself was the one who claimed credit in 1948 for the rapid increase in the quantity of eggs produced. It was only when, in negotiations following with the British, he found himself unable to repeat what his predecessor had done, that he then started off by attributing a certain legacy, which flowed from his predecessor, to himself. My challenge is this: that in 1947 we secured from the British a price for our eggs greater than that paid to the Danes. The Minister himself, in the passage which I have quoted, has admitted that we secured from the British a price greater than that paid to the Danes who were then negotiating with the British Government on matters relating to the price of eggs and other agricultural produce. My challenge to the Minister and to Deputies supporting him is this: why is it that they have been unable to secure from the British Government the same advantages which we secured in the agreement of 1947?

The poor Danes were only getting 1/7.

I am asking the Minister why it is, in view of the fact that these advantages were secured by us, that he has been unable to secure similar advantages during his period?

The poor Danes are only getting 1/7.

I am asking the Minister a question, and I think the people of the country are entitled to know the reason. There must be some reason for it. I think it was the then Taoiseach, with the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Aiken, and the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, who were with me in these negotiations.

That is right.

The former Taoiseach asked me recently:—

"What impression did you get during the course of the 1947 negotiations with British Ministers?"

He asked me that question in relation to the way in which they have treated the present Government and Minister, especially in regard to the price of eggs. In reply I said:—

"I must admit that I found them very hard, but I definitely came to the conclusion that they were decent. Having regard to the attitude which I found amongst them, I cannot understand how they came to treat the egg-producing industry of this country as it is being treated as a result of the failure, whoever is responsible, to negotiate a satisfactory agreement."

Because of the declaration of the Republic.

Whether or not it is, as Deputy Keane says, because of the fact that the Minister for Agriculture decided, because of the struggle in which he had been engaged all his life to secure a republic for Ireland, because of the efforts he made in that direction—perhaps Deputy Keane is right and it was the declaration of that Republic—no one has given us that as an explanation, no one holding a ministerial and responsible post has stated that that was the cause of the failure of the Minister for Agriculture and this Government to secure an agreement that I thought it was possible to secure with the British. From my experience in dealing with British Ministers, I would not expect they would be just falling over themselves to give high prices for our agricultural produce, but, as I say, I found they were decent.

The Minister himself, after he came into office, gave us something to guide us, something that I had often heard myself but which had slipped my memory until I read his words of encouragement to the poultry producers in a paper published at that time called Pep. In his message to the producers, the Minister said it was always accepted that while the producer can get for ten dozen of eggs the price of 1 cwt. of maize meal he could profitably engage in egg production. The Minister went on to say then:—

"The price of maize meal is now 28/- a cwt. and the price of a great hundred of eggs is 30/-; therefore, I can wholeheartedly recommend farmers and producers to engage in egg production and be assured of a profit."

We did not at the time regard the agreement made with the British in 1947 as an attractive agreement. We were so unimpressed by its provisions that there was a general understanding that, should costs increase from the producers' point of view, we could at any time seek to have a revision of prices. Having established how unjustifiable was the campaign engaged in mainly by the Minister and some of his henchmen to prove that some legacy was handed on to him of which he was not aware, I can only say that after the agreement was arrived at in 1947 there was an understanding that should the cost of production increase we could again approach the British with a view to having the price of eggs reviewed in the hope of getting a compensatory advantage to meet the increased cost of feeding stuffs.

Therefore, I am issuing a challenge to the Minister. I will go before any tribunal, I will go before any committee of agriculture, I will meet the Minister in any part of this country he likes, and I will prove by the production of documentary evidence that that agreement of 1947 was negotiated in the form in which it was negotiated in order to save the British from embarrassment because of the fact that they were giving us preferential treatment over those with whom they were then engaged in discussions with regard to food prices. I will prove that the Minister, after coming into office, although he was a critic of the agreement, having studied the agreement, having seen the reasons why it was negotiated in that form, admitted in the words I have cited the wisdom of the course which was taken. I will meet him before anybody and establish the truth of that. I invite him now to tell the unfortunate egg producers why it is that something we were able to do in 1947 he has not been able to repeat. We may talk about the cattle population and its importance and appreciate it as much as we like, but the Minister will have to realise how important are the egg industry, the bacon industry and the production of milk.

What about the strike of farm workers?

What about giving me a chance——

Deputy Keane should allow Deputy Smith to make his speech without interruption. If the Deputy wishes to speak, he will have an opportunity.

I am going now to deal with pigs and bacon. I find that in regard to this important branch of the agricultural industry the whole question is shrouded in mystery. No number of parliamentary questions will apparently induce the Minister to give us any clear idea of where we stand with regard to that matter. Deputy Dillon, when speaking as a Deputy on October 15th, 1947, at column 474 of the Official Report, made the following statement:—

"I could restore the pig population in 12 months. I could provide every farmer and every consumer with all the bacon they would want, and leave a substantial surplus for export to Great Britain. If you set out now to plant feeding barley and potatoes on the land at present being wasted in the cultivation of beet and some of the rubbish called wheat— but leave wheat out for the moment —we could restore the pig population in 18 months at the longest——"

It is a little more than twice 18 months now.

"—make a profit on every pig, provide the bacon for every table in this country and have an export for Great Britain wherewith to purchase goods we want, because we would have an export which they particularly want. Of the total of their consumption, our production would fill an appreciable percentage. Instead of that, we are to subsidise to the tune of £400,000 the increased acreage under beet, every acre of which will complicate the world situation created by a sugar surplus and every acre of which represents a serious loss to the national income."

That was Deputy James Dillon speaking in October, 1947. What had Deputy James Dillon, now Minister for Agriculture, to say when speaking of pigs and bacon to-day? What had the Minister to say in 1948 when recommending the agreement he and his colleagues made with Great Britain about the unprecedented advantages that would flow to the agricultural community as a result of it? That is three years ago? Three years afterwards, all we could get from the Minister to-day was that he was endeavouring to negotiate and complete an agreement with the British Government. An agreement on the price of what? Is it bacon? What is the Minister negotiating about now? Is it the price of bacon that is involved in these discussions? Or, is it, as the British Minister of Food once put it, the price of pigs on the trotter? If it is the price of pigs on the trotter, why must the pig be supplied on the trotter? These are questions to which the Minister should give to the House, and, through the House, to the country, an answer. I know that the Minister was in opposition when he made that speech in October, 1947. That was only a few short months before he became Minister. I will make all the allowances anyone likes for all his extravagance of language and everything else, but, in order to clear up this mystery surrounding the pig and bacon industry to-day, will the Minister say why it was necessary to pay a subsidy on whatever little quantity of bacon we have to dispose of to Great Britain? Will the Minister say why it is necessary for the producer to subsidise the sale of that bacon in the British market? Will the Minister say, either when he is concluding or at some stage, what is the meaning of these negotiations that are now taking place between the British and himself and his Department? Will he say why it is necessary to have an agreement dealing only with the pigs on the trotter? Will the Minister say why it is, if there is a possibility of our having pigs or bacon for export in the future, that 26, 27, 28 or 30 bacon factories studded all over the country, some of which are now closed down for want of supplies——

There is one in Cork, anyhow.

Lunham's.

Are they curing bacon again?

They were closed.

No. The Deputy was hoping they would close, but they have not closed yet.

What about Cappoquin?

It will not be denied at any rate that the bacon factories are not overworked at the present moment. It will not be denied, I take it, that the bacon factories could handle three times the quantity of pigs they are curing.

They are handling a damn sight more than they handled when you were in office.

This is an important question because there are now Deputies supporting the present Government who, over a long period, have complained because of the way in which our live-stock trade with Britain developed and because of the desirability of selling our surplus cattle other than on the hoof since there are many advantages that would accrue out of a tinned meat or dressed meat trade. Such a trade would mean that we would retain the hides for ourselves. Such a trade would mean that we would have certain employment resulting from that because of the industries that would grow up subsidiary to such a development. It has been a cause for grievous complaint amongst our people that we allowed the cattle trade to Britain to establish itself in a particular form to our ultimate detriment. I do not know what the arguments are in favour of selling pigs on the trotter —there may be some substantial reason for it—but there has not been a word said by the Minister to-day as to why this practice will be established. My confusion of mind on the present position of the pig and bacon industry does not end there.

On the 11th May, 1950, as given in Volume 120, column 2226, Deputy Dr. Maguire asked the Minister:—

"If he will arrange to facilitate the export of pigs to Northern Ireland in view of the high prices prevailing there."

The Minister for Agriculture replied as follows:—

"The British Ministry of Food, which is the purchaser of all fat pigs exported from this country, accepts such pigs only at designated centres in England, namely, Liverpool and Birmingham. There is no approved purchasing centre for our fat pigs in the Six Counties.

The future position as regards exports of pigs as well as bacon is at present under discussion with the Ministry of Food and pending the outcome of these negotiations it is not considered desirable that there should be a departure from the present arrangements in regard to the export of any classes of pigs."

On June 6th, I asked the Minister a question, given in Volume 121, column 1179:—

"Whether, in view of the necessity of subsidising the sale of surplus bacon in Great Britain, he will amend the instructions on which our customs officers are at present acting on the Border in preventing the movement of pigs to the Six Counties, where a profitable market is at hand to pig producers in the Republic."

The Minister replied:—

"I would refer the Deputy to my reply to the question asked by Deputy P.J. Maguire on this subject on 11th May."

In a supplementary question I said:—

"Will the Minister not agree that it is absurd to be paying out of taxation the salaries of men to act as customs officers to prevent our farmers disposing of their pigs in the sundered part of Ireland, while, at the same time, if the pigs are not disposed of in that fashion, they have to be sent to Great Britain where they can only be sold profitably by the payment of a subsidy which comes directly from the producers themselves?"

The Minister replied as follows:—

"If the Deputy will look at the answer to the question to which I have referred him, he will find an explanation for the present situation fully set out."

There were some other supplementary questions along that line. One would naturally take it from the Minister's attitude in replying to those two questions that there were only two centres, Liverpool and Birmingham, at which we could dispose of pigs. Here is where the mystery lies for me. Shortly after this, the Minister attended a meeting of his supporters. I do not know whether they were his supporters or members of a secret organisation of which he is the national vice-president, the Molly Maguires. He attended that meeting in Ballybay, one of the towns in his constituency, and suddenly, without consultation with anybody, and in spite of the fact that he had assured us here in the House that pigs could not be disposed of except in Birmingham and Liverpool on the trotter, he removed the ban on the export of pigs and the trek across the Six-County Border started. I want the Minister to explain to this House what the factors were, what the arguments were, on whose advice he made that decision.

What decision?

To remove the ban on the export of pigs across the Border.

On my own advice, to put behaviour on the bacon curers.

Am I to take it that the gentlemen whom the Minister interviewed in Ballybay did not by their pleadings in any way influence the Minister in that regard?

I do not know what the Deputy is referring to at all.

Does the Minister deny the fact that he met these gentlemen the day before his decision to remove the ban?

I do not know what the Deputy is talking about.

We want to know why and how this came about. If, then, the Minister can at will remove the ban, on whose advice was it reimposed a month later?

On my own advice.

The Minister is sure now that the secret, corrupt organisation to which I have referred did not enter into the picture at that stage at all?

Now the Deputy is being ignorant and insolent and I will give him no more information.

I am asking for information.

The Deputy is being impudent and ignorant.

I am asking for information about what is locally known, these facts whispered around the Minister's own constituency. He knows that the facts as stated now are commonly spoken of in the county which he represents. The people know that on the 25th October he removed a ban which he told me in this House could not be removed. The people know that he removed a ban which a short time before he had informed another Deputy from Monaghan could not be removed. They know that the removal of the ban followed the meetings to which I have referred and especially one meeting of what is known to be a secret organisation in Monaghan of which the Minister is national vice-president. Surely the House and the country are entitled to know something about this shady sort of business.

If it is possible, then, for the Minister at will to remove this ban, why is it necessary to go through all this painful procedure, apparently, of trying to negotiate with the British a price of 220/- for our pigs on the trotter —the deadweight value being 220/- — when by removing the ban one can immediately secure 285/-? I want the Minister to deal with this matter, as it is important. Here we have a Minister who for one month, only recently, allowed our producers access to a market for their produce in the Six Counties in which they were able to get attractive prices. He closed down on that market and now he tells us in moving this Estimate that he is busily engaged for the last three years in trying to get the British to give us 220/- for what we can get 285/- if he only removed the ban. That is surely one point of mystery which the Minister should endeavour to clear up.

Milk prices have been increased recently. The way in which that business has been handled reflects no credit on the Minister. We cannot get from him at any time any indication of what he is likely to do in the near future in relation not only to milk but to any other matter.

I will make this statement in regard to milk prices, that while the Minister is and has been for the last three years a member of a Government from which the organised sections of our people were able to get concession after concession—there is even the case of one paid official who was allowed to secure an increase in his salary of £1,000 per annum, and whose salary had been revised only in 1947—not a solitary effort would appear to have been made by him on behalf of the milk producers of the country, the price for whose milk up to a week or so ago was that fixed by the then Government in 1947 on my recommendation.

Twelve months ago, if you do not mind, a proposal came from the Minister that the price then prevailing should be reduced to 1/- per gallon all the year round because of certain fears he had, which apparently did not last longer than a couple of months, as to our capacity to more than produce what we could consume at home. Now we have heard, 12 months after, of our incapacity to produce what we want to feed ourselves. The price which has been fixed recently, on the recommendation, I take it, of the Minister, of an increase of 1d. per gallon on milk supplied during the summer months is an insult and a disgrace. It is an admission and a complete proof of the lack of real interest the Minister has shown on behalf of these people while he was a member of the Government.

What does the Deputy suggest the price should be?

I am suggesting to the Minister what I think his behaviour has been. The comparison I am drawing in regard to his behaviour will be approved by every milk supplier in the country. By the way, for the last couple of months, the Minister has seen fit, when requested to meet representatives of the milk producers, to refer to this organisation as a Fianna Fáil ramp. There is no doubt about it, the majority of the people in that organisation must be Fianna Fáil.

I thought so.

Because the majority of the milk suppliers of the country are Fianna Fáil. Where does the Minister expect our support would come from? Is it the Minister's contention that because they are supporters of Fianna Fáil they have not a right to make themselves heard? Is it the Minister's contention that because some of them are Unionists and some of them Fine Gael and because they are not in the majority, they must be Fianna Fáil, they must be supporting us, they must believe in us? Any time the Minister wants to have that tested, there is a simple way of having it done.

What price does the Deputy suggest should be paid for milk?

I had no hesitation in saying what the price should be in 1947, when I was Minister. I had no hesitation in going to my colleagues and to the Minister for Finance and seeing to it that they got what I thought was fair. They got it, too.

What do they get now?

If I were again responsible for the post of Minister for Agriculture I would see to it that if these smash-and-grab raids were to be carried out by every section of the community, the farmers would get their grab, too. But the Minister has lain low. He has allowed them all to have their pluck and their rake-off, but when this organisation and its representatives endeavoured to have an interview with him, it was termed a Fianna Fáil ramp, a Fianna Fáil racket. He would not say then that he was not going to help the political fortunes of the chairman, who is a Unionist, and who, as he contended, was after a certain parliamentary seat in the constituency in which he lives, and so on. What right has a Minister for Agriculture, even if he intended to refuse the request that he knew in advance they would make, to refuse to meet such people, in order to hear, at least, what they had to say and in order to give them an opportunity of advancing the arguments which they had satisfied themselves were sound and necessary to advance to the Minister because of his—in their view—inactivity in coming to their rescue? Suppose that this organisation had been a branch of the Molly Maguires in County Monaghan and had sought an interview—it is a corrupt and secret organisation—I wonder would the Minister have refused them? If the Minister had received a request from that organisation, would he have turned it down? Yet, when the milk producers wanted to have a talk with him, it was a different matter. They were not to be seen; they could not be heard. Instead of meeting them, the Minister chose to meet the representatives of an organisation which, although all right in its own way, is not an organisation in which the producer would have the same degree of confidence that his case would be made in the same effective way. I have no hesitation whatever in saying that the treatment by the present Minister of the milk producers of this country has been indefensible.

Other Deputies have raised this question from time to time, but never with any satisfactory result. It would have been far better if the Minister had withheld this paltry increase in the price of milk, because those who produce milk know that wages, rates and other costs have increased and that many other things have happened to make the cost of milk production soar enormously since the date on which the previous price was fixed in 1947.

What are the milk producers asking for? They are asking for arbitration. They are asking for an opportunity to go before an impartial body of men or women so that they can state their case for an adequate increase in the price of milk. Am I not entitled, then, to charge the Minister responsible for their industry with being negligent in not securing for them that right when he sits, as Minister for Agriculture, with 12, or now, 11, colleagues and when arbitration can be conceded in the case of other organised sections, such as teachers, civil servants and so on? Is it any wonder that there should be a tendency on the part of farmers and people who are obliged to live on the land, who are obliged to live in rural conditions, to move away from these conditions, from the hardships and the slavery associated with working on the land, when they see that, no matter how much they talk, or crave or demand it, they are denied even the simple concession—it is not a question of giving 2d. or 1d. per gallon—of being heard. They merely say: "You are a member of a Government which has made arbitration available to a number of classes in the community who are not half as important as we are," and we are asking, on behalf of these people, that arbitration facilities should be extended to them. That is a just demand, but not only has that demand been refused, but we have had the performance to which I have referred of the Minister refusing to meet representatives of that association.

There are many other phases of this subject with which other speakers will deal. I stated, when opening my remarks, that I had three matters which were most important to the greatest number of farmers. One was eggs and the others were pigs and bacon and milk prices. I have invited the Minister to make the position clear with regard to the first two, with regard to the mystery surrounding his inability to secure something in the way of a reasonable price for eggs and the mystery associated with the pigs and bacon situation. I do not know if we can hope to get any clarification from the Minister, because my experience of him is that, when one tries to get to the bottom of things, when one tries to unravel questions of this nature, he will use all the skill he possesses not for the purpose of assisting but for the purpose of thwarting us. He has succeeded on many occasions in that effort here, but that would be a small matter indeed if his achievements had stopped at that. He has thwarted more than that.

Deputies who support the Government blame us for keeping in office the present Minister. They say: "You have been so critical of the man that we could not afford to remove him, could not run the risk of exposing ourselves by removing him. If you were not as critical of this man, we could have changed him from one Department to another, but in view of the way you have conducted yourselves and the campaign you have carried on, we could not take the risk." There are others, Deputies and Senators, who through the country make the excuse that the Minister has a way of saying things that nobody else has, and a particular Deputy will say to some of his supporters who are critical of the Minister: "I would not say the things the way he says them, but he means well." These are the defences being made for the Minister, and I am revealing no secret when I say that there is no confidence in him amongst any section of the community who will speak their mind, and, worst of all, there is no confidence in him on the part of those employed by the State to implement his policy. Servants of the State in all Departments, as I have known them for a long time, are faithful. They will serve any Minister or any Government, but when they have to engage in the operation of a policy with a Minister who is so fickle, so extravagant and so impossible to estimate in any way they, too, will lose that confidence in him which is necessary if a policy of any kind is to be successfully put over.

I suppose it is in the nature of things that Deputies supporting this Government should behave so. Undoubtedly, they will stand up and defend his actions as best they can, but lurking behind that defence is the firm belief and conviction which is shared by the community at large and by the very outdoor officials through the country, from the lowest to the highest, who have no political views, so far as I know, that the Minister is a man in whom they can have absolutely no confidence, and, so long as that situation exists, there can be no progress in the agricultural sphere.

The Minister to conclude.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Have you called me?

Acting-Chairman

Yes.

The Minister is called.

Mr. Dillon rose.

Is the Minister concluding this debate?

Acting-Chairman

Deputy Corry.

The Chair has called me.

Acting-Chairman

I know that, but we have that privilege in calling Deputy Corry.

On a point of order. Is it correct that the Chair, knowing that nobody stood up after the last speaker, should now call on Deputy Corry, who was in the House when Deputy Smith sat down but did not offer himself until after the Minister was called on to conclude? Deputy Corry was available but he did not stand up until after the Minister had been called on to conclude. I want to know that for my own information.

Acting-Chairman

I think that that happens occasionally.

On a point of order. While I was out having tea, the Minister for Defence took my place on the Front Bench. I understand that when Deputy Smith finished speaking nobody offered and the Chair called on the Minister to conclude.

Acting-Chairman

That is quite so.

I promptly attended to conclude. Now you tell me that you are going to call on Deputy Corry who was present in the House when you called on the Minister to conclude. Is it in order, having called on the Minister to conclude, to tell the Minister not to conclude?

I stood up on behalf of the Minister.

Acting-Chairman

It is the practice of this House to call a Deputy even if the Minister has been called.

I have been 20 years in the House——

The point is that the Deputy was in the House and refused to offer himself.

Do you expect me to talk when there is nobody in the House?

And even subsequently, Deputy Corry refused to offer himself.

Acting-Chairman

Deputy Corry was not aware that the count was over.

On a further point of order. Considering that Deputy Corry did not offer and that the Minister was called on to conclude—the Minister for Defence standing and claiming for the Minister for Agriculture—and that, after that, Deputy Aiken drew attention to the fact that a quorum was not present, can the Chair reverse the procedure in such an extraordinary manner?

Acting-Chairman

It is a recognised practice in the House to do that. I call on Deputy Corry.

I am at the disadvantage that I have no notes but I do not require any notes to deal with the agricultural policy that has been administered for the past three years by our present Minister for Agriculture. Nobody requires any notes for that. All one has to do is to look around to-day and see the flight from the land—and the flight from this House.

When you are speaking.

The first thing I wish to discuss is the rather contemptible insult offered by this Minister to the agricultural community — and by "agricultural community" I mean the working agricultural community. He insulted the ordinary dairy farmer of this country and I may say that the dairy farm is the foundation of agriculture and the foundation of any agricultural policy in this country. Last week this Minister for Agriculture insulted the dairy farmers by fixing an increase of half a farthing per pint on their milk. If ever a more flagrant and contemptible insult has been offered to the agricultural community I should like to hear of it.

I should like to bring the minds of Deputies back to the last time the price for milk was fixed in this country: it was in March, 1947. Deputy Smith, the then Minister for Agriculture, fixed the price at 1/2 per gallon for the summer months and 1/4 per gallon for the winter months. There was a general complaint from the Deputies who are now over on the Government side of the House, but who were on this side of the House at that time, that the prices should have been higher. As a matter of fact, when this present Government came into office there was a notice of motion, signed by Deputy Halliden, Deputy Cogan and some other Deputies—I think there were five in all—complaining about the uneconomic price of milk. In November, 1947, the price was regarded as uneconomic. It was wrong then. Yet the very Deputies whose names were attached to that motion afterwards trotted into the lobby—with the notable exception of Deputy Cogan—and voted against any increase in the price of milk. The Minister then admitted in a public statement here that the cost of agricultural produce had been put up by him by something over 20 per cent.

The Minister has got from me personally and from Professor Murphy of University College, Cork, certain costings which he has used here periodically whenever it suited him. We look on our industry as an industry. Those costings omit interest on capital and farm management but the Minister has used those costings without those two items and says: "Here is the cost of the production of milk." If those two items were included it would increase the cost of milk by about 3d. a gallon. Professor Murphy himself has stated publicly that production costs have gone up since Deputy Smith fixed the price of milk by about 3½d. a gallon. The Minister has plenty of opportunity of finding out what is the cost of the production of milk. In this Estimate we are discussing he pays for seven or nine farms of land, most of which keep dairy cows. If the Minister is correct in his attitude or in his figures why does he not produce in this House costings from the university farm in Cork, for instance, Clonakilty farm or Glasnevin and have them examined by us and let the farming community know what is the cost of the production of milk?

For the past three years he has definitely refused the appeals of the agricultural community and has continued to refuse until this year we have the result which is the same as we had for the oats, the barley, the wheat, the sugar—we rush abroad to the Continent and endeavour to buy for the Irish people, of all things in the world, butter. In this agricultural dairying country why had we to send for butter to the Continent? Because in a brazen bluff to endeavour to prove the truth of what he knew absolutely was not true, namely, that there was a surplus of butter, the Minister went abroad and endeavoured to sell our butter. To whom? To a country that could get nothing from anybody in the world to-day because she cannot pay for it and will not pay for it, the country that is living on the rabbits and the horses because she is not prepared to pay for food.

The Argentine refused them meat and everywhere they go is closed to them, but the Minister went there with our butter and was offered 271/- a cwt. for it. He came back to our farmers who, if the Deputies over there are to be believed, were getting an uneconomic price for butter in 1947, and said:—

"I have a guaranteed price for your milk for the next five years at 1/- a gallon instead of 1/2"

—a 20 per cent. increase in costings and a reduction of 2d. a gallon, and this was to increase production!

Last August I had published in the public Press the figures from January to June, 1950, showing what the Danish Minister for Agriculture had received for butter on the Continent. He sold a large quantity of butter to France at 463/- a cwt.; he sold it to the American forces in occupation in Germany at 498/- a cwt.; he sold it to the German people at 414/- a cwt.; he sold it to Italy; he sold practically as much butter as we produce. He sold 228,000 cwt. of butter between January and June, 1950, and he got for that an average price of 438/- a cwt. Our Minister went over to Britain and was told: "I will give you 271/- a cwt." He came back to the Irish farmers and said:—

"You have got to eat dry bread"

—and, mind you, he says that yet—

"you are too well fed, you are consuming too much butter. You have got to pare down and do with less and give me your butter. I will sell it on the Continent at a price that will give you 1/- a gallon for your milk. You will not even get 1/- a gallon for milk; you will only get it with £2,800,000 from the taxpayer to help you out."

If the Minister was such a wretched salesman as all that, why the dickens did he not go to the Danish Minister for Agriculture and say: "Look, here is our butter and there is 10 per cent. commission; you go and sell it." Would that not be a decent thing for him to do instead of endeavouring to grind down the agricultural community? He grinds them down and then he sells butter on the Continent. He sold it to France; at what price? This great Minister, who extracts the last farthing, sold it at 98/- per cwt. less than the Danish Minister got for his. Would it not pay us well to give a commission of 10 per cent. or even 20 per cent. to the Danish Minister and tell him to go and sell our butter? The Danish Minister got 463/- and our Minister got 365/- in France. He sold that butter on the Continent and he knew the day he was selling it that there was not sufficient butter here to meet the ration. I have not the figures with me; I am speaking here without my notes.

It sounds like it.

Thank God I have a good head.

So has a pin.

I will give the Deputy full liberty to speak in a few minutes. That is the manner in which this Minister carried on. There were two questions asked here last year by Deputy P.D. Lehane at the time when this Minister was pretending there was a surplus of butter. One question was addressed to the Minister for Agriculture, asking for information as to the quantity of butter produced; the other was to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, asking about the quantity required for the ration. The position was that we were short 20,000 odd cwt. of butter to meet the ration. That represented the condition of affairs when this Minister went to the Continent and sold butter.

He found he could not carry on the bluff any longer and he went over and bought butter from the Danes. He brought back some butter, the history of which I gave here some time ago. It was the butter that was whipped out of Brian Boru's tent the day he was killed at Clontarf. It was taken over and held by the Danes in cold storage ever since. It was brought back here and now, when the ice is melting out of it, the water content is rising and some of our unfortunate shopkeepers are being lugged into court and prosecuted because the ice has melted in the butter. James now finds 20 to 25 per cent. of water in the butter. What did he pay for it? He paid 376/- for 20 to 25 per cent. of water.

The position is that, in the worst winter that has been experienced in this country for a generation, this Minister has stood by callous and sneering, with his "do not give a hang" attitude. He comes along in the month of April and says: "I will give you half a farthing per pint of an increase, and I hope you will fatten on it". That is the Minister whom this Government put in charge of the destinies of this nation in the matter of agriculture. I am not going to enter into the long history of all the things this gentleman did. I would like to say a few words about the unfortunate farmer's wife. I got this parcel when I came into the Dáil; it was sent to me by post.

This is not the place for samples.

This is a letter from a lady in Mallow and it contains a present for the Minister for Agriculture.

Acting-Chairman

Nor is this the place for presents either.

She tells me in the letter that, having been told by the Minister for the past few years that the more eggs she could produce the better would be the price,

"I and many other poultry breeders have gone to trouble and expense to produce more, only to discover that feeding stuffs went up by leaps and bounds, while the price of eggs went down much faster. You can see by the eggs enclosed in this that the hens have gone on strike and refused to produce a normal egg any more, at the low price offered for eggs. I would be glad if you would present them to Mr. Dillon and ask him on our behalf to do his best to get a much better price for them or they will soon be as scarce as gold sovereigns in Eire."

That is from a lady in Mallow and perhaps the Minister for Defence will present them to Mr. Dillon.

Give it to him yourself.

If the election is to come in a fortnight, maybe the Minister for Agriculture would get them down the country; he would meet with a rough reception. However, there they are, and that letter comes from one of those people who have been bluffed by this cry of the Minister for Agriculture, when he told the people that the more eggs they could produce the better would be the price. When the eggs got plentiful the price fell. That will not happen again. The more eggs you produce, he told the farmers' wives, the higher the price will be. The present price, he said, is 3/- a dozen, and that was signed, "James M. Dillon." The people had it off by heart. It was headed, "A message to the Irish people." That was the message, and what happened? I believe that whereever you went you could see a farmer's wife having a hold of her husband by the arm, saying: "You will have to buy an incubator for me," and every house you went into and every outoffice had its nice little lamp burning and nice little chickens gathered around it for the heat. Everywhere you went you saw chickens.

You would make a nice old hatcher.

What did the Minister tell the English people? He said to them: "I will drown you with eggs." To our people he said: "The more you produce the higher the price will be", but, with the increase in the number of eggs, down came the price. Last week he was telling us about the number of cwts. of old hens that were being sent to feed the British people. Old hens he is sending over now. Anyway, that was his attitude towards the eggs.

He then issued another statement. He said:—

"I am your Minister for maize. The price of maize at present is £20 a ton. I cannot see, within conceivable time, that price increasing; it will not increase while I am Minister."

Twenty pounds a ton for maize and 3/- a dozen for eggs. It looked all right, and no wonder the farmers were persuaded to buy hoovers and produce chickens—one - day chicks. When everything was ready, the maize started climbing up in price. Now he has a kind of mongrel maize, 25 per cent. maize and 75 per cent. sorghums, or 75 per cent. sorghums and 25 per cent. maize, at £30 a ton. I will give you my views on sorghums later on. It is well worth hearing. That is the position as regards poultry.

The first inkling we got of the new move was when another Deputy stood up here and told us about a dual-purpose hen that the Minister would produce, with beef on her back and eggs behind. It was Deputy Rooney that thought of that. Deputy Rooney spent several days here telling us about this dual-purpose hen that the Minister would have for us but the dual-purpose hen, unfortunately, seems to have disappeared like the dual-purpose cow that the Department of Agriculture has been dreaming of for the last 23 years.

The dual-purpose cock is talking.

The Deputy should keep cool. I am sure many of the unfortuate people from Connacht who went into the Deputy's constituency and started there with little hoovers and flocks of hens, are looking for the Deputy now, that is, if he gave them any advice on it. I do not know whether he was "cod" enough to do that, or not.

What about the ranchers?

I will deal with the position as regards the ranchers too.

You are one yourself, now.

I will give them all their turn in time. That is the position of this Minister for Agriculture as regards poultry—2/- per doz. for eggs; £30 per ton for a mixture of mongrel maize. The first adventure we had with this Minister was immediately after his coming into office, when he issued a new dictum: "Grow more oats, grow more potatoes; assured market for both. Any surplus you have the Department of Agriculture will take it off your hands." The people, getting a new Minister, were anxious to please him and they produced the oats and the potatoes. Lo and behold, the Minister quite forgot to produce the market. I happened to be one of a deputation that was requested to interview the Minister in connection with that matter. I interviewed him. There were other Deputies with me—Deputy Lehane, Deputy Lahiffe—and members of all Parties. The Minister told us:—

"I have no intention of putting a floor under Rank."

That was his reply as far as oats was concerned. He wound up by telling us that he did not give a fiddle-de-dee if they never got £1 for it. That was the Minister for Agriculture who had advised the farmers to grow oats that year.

Another Deputy questioned him about the price of potatoes and said the price was very low, that he had got only £7 a ton for them. He said: "You got £7 a ton for your potatoes. You are one lucky man, Deputy." That is the Minister for Agriculture and that was his attitude towards the people who went to appeal to him to carry out his pledge to the farmers, the pledge he gave when they were setting the crop. He did not do it. He left them there. "Walk it off the land," he said, and it walked off the land that year, for there were the biggest and the fattest rats that were ever seen around the country after they had been fattened on the oats that Mr. James Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, advised the Irish farmers to grow.

What was the result? A burnt child dreads the fire. Very little oats were grown in the following year, and this Minister for Agriculture of ours went out to the Argentine and paid £26 10s. 0d. a ton there for oats and brought them in here. I happened to see a sample of it and I was frightened. I inquired where they were getting that stuff and I was told that it was the oats that the Minister for Agriculture brought from the Argentine. I brought a sample of it here and if I had blown on it, it would have floated across to the opposite side of the House, it was so light—chaff. It was just like the light dust or chaff that comes out in the blast when oats are threshed. That is the kind of oats he bought. It was a beauty. This Minister, who refused to find a market for the Irish farmers' oats the year before, who has driven the farmer away from producing oats, went over to the foreigner with £26 10s. 0d. a ton of the Irish people's money to buy that muck and to bring it in here.

He followed that up by going out to Iraq and there he purchased barley, if you please. I showed it to Deputies in this House who said that I had mixed it. In their presence I phoned the company who had brought it in and told them kindly to send over a couple of samples. I was speaking to Deputy Hickey about it. I brought Deputy Hickey along with me and collected the samples from the office, brought them into the Library and put them on the table. "My God," said Deputy Hickey, "where did that stuff come from?" I told him: "That is the stuff that you told me I had mixed." The Minister takes that stuff and the Argentine oats out to the Irish farmer to feed the poor hen—no wonder she lay dead after it—and to fatten the pig and the more the pig ate of it the more the hair stood on his back. That was paid for by the Irish people's money. When he found that the cheapest stuff he could buy abroad would cost £30 a ton here, he followed that up with a rather contemptible pretence that he wanted the Irish farmer to grow feeding barley.

Remember, he paid £26 10s. 0d. a ton for the mixture of rotten black oats, bad white oats and barley that must have been there since the day of the flood, and he came along this year, a couple of months ago, and told the Irish farmer:

"Oh yes, I want 300,000 acres of feeding barley. I shall pay you £10 10s. 0d. a ton less than I paid to Iraq for barley. I want 300,000 acres of feeding barley at £16 a ton."

I happened to be one of a deputation who was sent to the Minister on that particular job also. He paid me the tribute here the following day, together with a load of abuse, that owing to the argument I put up, he was increasing the price by £4 a ton. It was a pretty good tribute. I am prepared to give him a rattle and spend half an hour in his lovely company any time if I can get £4 a ton extra for the people I represent. I shall put up with anything in that line. There is no farmer growing barley to-day who does not know that the minimum price he will get for that barley will be £25 per ton. Would the Minister be honest or be at least straight? Will he not come along to the farmers and say:

"Look, you are not going to have any feeding stuffs next year. That maize I promised you is all gone. You cannot get it. It is not there and it will not be there."

Any man who knows the different belts in this country, knows that in one portion of a constituency or of a particular area, you have a body of small farmers who have no grain and in another side of the area you have a number of big farmers who are grain growers and who grow grain for sale. Knowing that position, and knowing that unless these farmers with the big acreages grow barley, he will not have it anyway, will the Minister not come along and say:

"I am paying £30 to the foreigner and it will probably be £35 next harvest, if I can get it at all and I am prepared to give you at least as much as I gave the foreigner last year, £26 a ton."

Then he would have some hope of getting the farmers to grow it.

The next item that we put on the Minister's books is the position as regards wheat. The price of wheat was fixed by the late Minister for Agriculture at 62/6 per barrel.

In the end of 1947. It was publicly announced at 62/6 per barrel then, and it is 62/6 per barrel now.

What was the price of barley then?

I promise you I will give you enough about barley and it is I am able to do it.

There is a fine gallery here.

Would you ever believe that in a country like this, with the world situation as it is, the Minister for Agriculture would fix the price of wheat at the same price as it was in 1947, and have it £3 15s. 0d. a ton less than the stuff to make the pint —£28 15s. 0d. a ton for malting barley and £25 a ton for the wheat to produce the bread which we eat? That is the position which the Irish farmers are facing now and these are the inducements offered to them to grow crops— £28 15s. 0d. for malting barley—not fixed by the Minister, but fixed by the committee that frequently had to call on the Minister.

They did not fix it in 1944 when it was 30/- a barrel.

I even squeezed £4 a ton out of the Minister. I may tell you that when I was able to squeeze £4 a ton out of him——

Acting-Chairman

Perhaps the Deputy will address the Chair.

For Deputy Keane's edification, I want to repeat that I squeezed £4 a ton out of the Minister on feeding barley and, mind you, it took some squeezing. I am giving that as an instance of the position of agricultural produce, the price of which is controlled by the Minister, namely, the price of wheat, the price of feeding barley, the price of milk and the price of eggs. Those prices are fixed by the Minister for, as he will tell you, a profitable market. The result is that last year you had an enormous reduction in the wheat acreage. To-day you stand to lose further on the acreage of wheat, and the Minister and the Government stand coolly by and make no effort whatever to meet that situation, a situation in which we do not know the month when we shall be told by the countries from which we are importing grain: "There is a grave danger that you will get no further grain. We cannot give you any further supply. It is your duty to produce it yourself. Why do you not do it?" That is the position as regards grain, and particularly wheat. Deputy Keane was anxious to know the situation regarding malting barley. I shall give it to him.

In 1944-45.

The first statement made here by the Minister for Agriculture was on malting barley. In one of his first statements, he told us very bluntly and plainly that the Fianna Fáil Government had robbed the farmer on malting barley and had given a present of over £2,000,000 to Messrs. Arthur Guinness and Sons out of the farmer's pocket. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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