On the 18th April——
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Spreading of Ground Limestone.
Could I save the Deputy time by saying that I have had an opportunity of inquiring into the matter and, as soon as Córas Iompair Éireann and the sugar company have settled the matter, retrospective payments will be made to the 12th March?
Will you pay the money retrospectively?
What will happen will be that as soon as they have agreed the payments will be made back to the 12th March and the sugar company will make refunds to the farmers.
That is lightening the burden. My objection is——
Is the Deputy proceeding with the debate?
Yes, Sir. My objection is this: that we expect from a Minister of Dáil Éireann who interrupts a debate that he interrupts it for good reason and, above all, of necessity. I understand that the expression that I would use towards the Minister would be out of order in this House. I will read for the House what did happen. On the 18th April, 1951—columns 987 and 988—the following debate took place:—
"I come now to a matter to which, I hope, the Minister will devote his serious attention. He must be aware that, undoubtedly the Irish Sugar Company were the pioneers of ground limestone in this country. They started their quarries in Ballybeg. They bought their plant and machinery and they set about producing ground limestone for the Irish farmer. I do not know the present position, but when I wrote to Mallow last week stating that I wanted lime spread on my farm I got a reply informing me that if I wanted it spread on the farm I should have to take it without any subsidy at 30/- a ton or that I could send my order to Córas Iompair Éireann and have the lime delivered on the roadside at 16/- a ton. Labour is not got for nothing on Irish farms to-day. Would it not be far easier, where you have a fleet of some 80 lime spreaders——"
I understand that the Sugar Company have 170 spreaders——
"owned by the Sugar Company in Mallow, to have the lime filled into these spreaders by machinery, then sent directly to the farmer's land and spread at 5/- per ton of an increase in price? Would it not be far easier to do that than to have the complete dislocation of work that is incurring at present? The farmer who takes advantage of the fact that the lime will be spread on his land by the Sugar Company is being deprived of what his fellow farmers can get, namely, a subsidy of 9/- a ton. Surely it is possible to surmount this difficulty. If the Minister is not prepared to deal with a State company, which the Sugar Company is, and to give to that State Company the subsidy which he is giving to others——
Mr. Dillon: Everything is working perfectly smoothly.
Mr. Corry: What about this letter I received last week from the Sugar Company?"
—which was sent by the Cork County Committee of Agriculture to the Minister—
"What has the Minister to say about that?
Mr. Dillon: The Deputy is out of date.
Mr. Corry: Has the Minister changed it since?
Mr. Dillon: I cannot say, since the Deputy has got the letter, but it is working perfectly smoothly now—if the Deputy does not upset the apple cart.
Mr. Corry: Can I get——
Mr. Dillon: ——all the lime you want.
Mr. Corry: ——and spread on my land at the subsidised price?
Mr. Dillon: Everything is now working perfectly smoothly."
That was a statement made by a Minister for Agriculture in this House. Anybody who heard that statement would be under the firm impression that this difficulty had been removed and that the farmer who wanted lime spread on his land would get the subsidy out of the £1,000,000 given by Mr. Millar of the E.C.A., that my farmers in Cork would get their share of that money. Instead of that, ever since this subsidy scheme was brought in, these unfortunate farmers are bringing out that lime and paying at the rate of 30/- a ton for it. There are 170 spreaders at work drawing out that lime every day and those people are deprived of their share of the £1,000,000 grant given by Mr. Millar of the E.C.A. to subsidise lime in this country. There is no justification for it. I hoped that they would get it when I read that, but I found afterwards that the Minister was only a brother of Annanias. I cannot use any other expression.
Who did you say he was?
A brother of Annanias. Did the Deputy ever hear of Annanias?
Have you any relations?
I had hoped that when the Minister's attention was brought to the matter in this House he would remedy it. That was the 18th April. This is 2nd May. The lime spreaders are still going out, and the 30/- per ton is still being paid. I got into communication with Ballybeg yesterday. I asked them were the farmers in my district now entitled to the subsidy. They said "No", that they were not entitled to the subsidy, that they had heard nothing about it. They had heard nothing about it, yesterday. I consider that it is my duty as representing my constituents and the farmers of my area to see that my farmers will get the same crack of the whip and the same subsidy as is given to anyone else. I cannot understand a Minister of State, coming here and, like the cow that kicked the bucket of milk, upsetting the whole business as he has done ever since this subsidy was brought in. Every farmer, anyone who has anything to do with agriculture, knows that during the months of March, April and May there is more lime put on the land than there is in the other nine put together.
During the last three years only.
Will the Deputy mind his tomatoes and his glasshouses and see that the Minister for Agriculture will not put any more bricks into them?
I forgot to deal with the tomatoes.
We will give you plenty of opportunity, under a different Minister, in a fortnight's time.
Deputy Corry would not have liked to hear what I would have said.
I do not like to hear what Deputy Flanagan has to say on this occasion. Deputy Corry.
I have read for the House the Minister's statement when he intervened in the debate on the 18th April. I put down the following question to him for answer to-day:
"To ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will state (1) what arrangements, if any, have been made by his Department with the Irish Sugar Company, Limited, for the delivery and spreading of ground limestone under his subsidy scheme by the company's lime spreaders; (2) if he is aware that this company have about 80 lime-speading lorries"— that should be 170, thank God—"that they spread the lime at 5/- per ton, that farmers using these lime-speading facilities are deprived of any benefit under his subsidy scheme, and, if so. (3) if he is prepared, failing any agreement between the sugar company and himself, to allow the farmer making use of this method of delivery and spreading of lime the amount of the delivery subsidy on production of the sugar company's receipt."
That would be a very simple way out of it, if this wrangle is going on. I got the following reply:
"Discussions are taking place between the Irish Sugar Company and Córas Iompair Éireann with a view to enabling farmers who purchase lime from the sugar company and who desire to avail themselves of the company's spreading service to participate in the subsidy scheme. I am confident that a satisfactory arrangement will be reached."
That is the reply I got on the 2nd May, but I was told on the 18th April that everything was working perfectly smoothly.
A fortnight after, the agreement has not yet been made between the Sugar Company and Córas Iompair Éireann. I do not know what brings Córas Iompair Éireann into this game at all, to be quite honest about it. The lime spreaders belong to the Sugar Company. There was a perfectly smooth-working machine there for the last couple of years, under which we got lime delivered and spread on the land by the Sugar Company. I cannot see the purpose of this bullocking in by Córas Iompair Éireann, unless it is that Córas Iompair Éireann want grab as much as possible of Millar's £1,000,000. That is my reading of it anyway; I may be wrong and I hope I am wrong. Where the Minister found quarries working, ground lime stone being produced, and the lime being taken 40, 50, 60 or 70 miles to be spread over the farmers' fields, I cannot see why the Minister should come in with messers like Córas Iompair Éireann to mess up the job. The Minister had the experience that we had as beet growers of the activities of Córas Iompair Éireann and he knows that they have enough to do in their own particular line without meddling in lime particularly having regard to the fact that there was a perfectly smooth-working machine there already.
Might I ask what the administration of Córas Iompair Éireann has to do with the question addressed to the Minister for Agriculture?
Except in so far as it affects the distribution of the lime.
The Minister's reply to me was that discussions are taking place between the Irish Sugar Company and Córas Iompair Éireann. I am aware of Deputy Flanagan's anxiety that as little of this as possible should get out but these are the facts.
You have said nothing yet.
What has happened is that thousands of tons of that lime have gone out since the subsidy was announced here by the Minister, and announced down the country by Mr. Millar, and these unfortunate farmers are deprived of that subsidy. They have to pay the full amount for their lime. And for what? So that the Minister could bring in here certain proposals. I admit they might be needed in some parts of the country and I would be sorry to deprive any portion of the country of the facilities they can get, but I cannot understand this idea of the Minister's coming along with lime spreaders to be purchased and 170 lime spreaders being put off the road by the activities of the Minister. There is a big difference between getting your lime delivered on the side of the road at 16/- per ton and having to pay 30/- a ton for it. There is a wide difference between having a lorry coming along to within half a mile of your house, tipping up seven, eight, or ten tons of lime, and your being compelled to have a man there to shovel that lime into a horse butt, and then trying to scatter it in the field. I am amazed at the Minister harbouring that idea for one moment. I would suggest to him that he should not be like the cow that gave a bucket of milk and then kicked the bucket and spilled it.
This money, after all, is not the money of the Irish taxpayer. It is a grant from America to the farmers, and the farmers are entitled to it. Why that money should be dished out in such a manner that Córas Iompair Éireann are going to grab 75 per cent. of it I do not know. The Government should get some other way of subsidising Córas Iompair Éireann apart from that. That is briefly the position in which I find myself in this matter. I am glad that even now, at the eleventh hour, I have dragged from the Minister this much anyway: that my farmers in Cork County and in Kerry, Limerick and Waterford who have got this lime from the sugar company and who, to their credit, have continued taking it from them, without any subsidy, are now going to get the subsidy and the share of the American money to which they are entitled. The idea of depriving them of that because they were using up-to-date methods was a perfectly ridiculous attitude for the Minister to take up in this House.
I would not dream of raising this matter on the Adjournment were it not for two things. The first was the untrue statement made by the Minister to me in this House on the 18th April. It is hardly worth while bothering about it now, but I would not allow a Minister belonging to any Party to get away with an untrue statement of that description in this House. I wanted to nail it and I have nailed it. The second thing is that time is going on and my unfortunate people in Cork are bearing the brunt and losing money. Worse than that, they do not know where they are. They are nervous of putting out lime, nervous of taking advantage of the scheme. I would say that you would practically have at least another third as much lime put out if the Minister had come in here the first day and said what any Minister would have said to the sugar company: "You have perfect machinery for that work and we will give the subsidy on lime you distribute." That was a very simple way out of it instead of sending the sugar company to Córas Iompair Éireann to know what Córas Iompair Éireann would charge for doing this work. What is going to become of the drivers of the trucks employed by the sugar company? Are they going to be replaced by employees of Córas Iompair Éireann? Is the whole machinery going to be wrecked in order to gratify this departmental whim in an endeavour to cover up the losses of Córas Iompair Éireann by an arrangement between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture leading to a further robbery of the farmers?
I should like to ask one question.
I have ten minutes to reply.
I think there is one minute left. I just want to ask one question. I understand this subsidy is now being made available on lime distributed by the sugar company. They have a very fine fleet of lorries suitable for this purpose. There are other firms manufacturing lime which have also their own distributors and I should like to ask if the subsidy will be made available on lime distributed by them.
That is outside the scope of the question.
Deputy Corry's conduct and language are as mischievous as those of a Gibraltar monkey. It is a new departure when Deputy Corry assumes the baronial "my" and "mine"—"my farmers in County Cork". Since when did the farmers of County Cork belong to Deputy Corry? "My farmers!" God knows the farmers of this country will have sunk to a low level, the day they belong to Deputy Martin Corry.
They will pitch you out next week.
The facts of this are that the sugar company and Córas Iompair Éireann have been in discussion about this whole business of distributing lime ground at Ballybeg. The facts are that, owing to circumstances of which Deputy Corry has full knowledge, there were certain unavoidable delays in connection with those discussions owing to the unavoidable absence, consequent on a protracted period of hard work and the enjoyment of a holiday for the first time in six years by one of the managerial persons concerned, so that it was not possible to bring the discussions for the co-ordination of the work of Córas Iompair Éireann and Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann to a conclusion as rapidly as was hoped. Certainly, I consider that any delay that has taken place is no reflection on either of the two distinguished gentlemen who were responsible for the negotiations, and it ill befits Deputy Corry to hold them up to public odium in this House because either of them has done for this country more in one month than Deputy Corry has done in the whole of the 63 years that he has been stumping Ireland.
You are a good judge.
The fact is that the Ballybeg lime will now be available to those who want it spread on their land at, I understand, 20/- per ton. If there is anybody who has drawn lime from Ballybeg between the period of the initiation of the scheme and to-day, I understand he will be facilitated in getting from the sugar company a refund of whatever excess charge was made as from the date of the initiation of the scheme and to-day. Deputy Corry knows that. I told him that earlier to-day.
You refused to tell me if they would get the subsidy.
But he just wanted to come in here and make mischief if he could. Now he cannot.
To have a last talk with you.
He is naturally irritated and exasperated by the fact that it has been possible for this Government to make available to our people everywhere abundant supplies of calcium for their soil. The Ballybeg limestone was there for the last 10,000 years, and for 16 of those 10,000 years Fianna Fáil was the Government of this country, but if Fianna Fáil was the Government of this country for the next 10,000 years the Ballybeg limestone would continue to be covered by fossils as it had been covered for the last 10,000 years.
The position to-day is that the limestone is now being quarried out of Ballybeg. It is being ground there, and carted to the farmer's gate and spread upon his land, not only in Ballybeg, but in every county in Ireland. That is what makes Deputy Corry and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party irate, vicious, vindictive, disappointed and desirous of making mischief. It is about all they have ever been good at. Now it does not matter what they say or do, the lime is going to go out and the land of every farmer in this country is going to enjoy the benefit of this scheme. Whether Deputy Corry wants it or not it does not matter a fiddle-de-dee. It will be the same price for everyone, and nobody will be asked what political party he belongs to, and no one will be told that, if he licks the feet of the Fianna Fáil wheel horse, he will get it before his neighbour gets it, or that he will get it cheaper than his neighbour gets it and nobody will be called upon in the middle of the night and warned that if he does not vote right in this election he will get no subsidy. (Interruptions). I remember the time when our people in every general election were warned in respect of every scheme operated by the Government of this country that if they were not prepared, corruptly, to purchase the favour of Fianna Fáil T.D.s, they would be denied their lawful rights under those schemes.
That is untrue.
Everyone in this country, poor or rich, small or great, will get the benefit of this scheme. It is not reserved for Fianna Fáil hacks or Fianna Fáil victims. It is for everybody, and that is what has made Deputy Corry and Deputy Ó Briain so mad about it. Well, they can get as mad as wet hens and go down to Cork and Limerick — Deputy Corry in English, because that is all he will be able to do, and Deputy Ó Briain in English and in Irish, and begin "A Chara dhíl," and end "Mise le meas mór." The fact, however, remains that, so long as this scheme is operated by this Government, it will be operated honestly. If it ever falls into the hands of those whom Deputy Corry supports, it will be operated corruptly, viciously and vindictively.
Is that in order?
It is perfectly in order.
Is it in order for the Minister for Agriculture to say that any scheme will be administered corruptly by anybody in this House?
He has not said anything against any Deputy. He said a scheme administered by certain people would be corrupt, but he has not picked out or named anyone in particular.
And Deputy Derrig knows that.
We will get other opportunities of dealing with him.
You will be very welcome.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 8th May, 1951.