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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1951

Vol. 126 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 60—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £230,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1952, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

Beyond mentioning a few facts in regard to the figures, I do not intend to make a very long statement. The Estimates, as the Dáil is aware, were prepared under the directions of my predecessor in office. The total amount required under the seven Estimates is almost exactly the same as that required for the year 1950-51, some of the Estimates showing small increases which are offset by corresponding reductions in others.

The total amount sought for old age and blind pensions—£7,240,000—shows an increase of £91,500, and is based on an anticipated average of 164,000 pensioners, as against 162,000 pensioners provided for in 1950-51. When this Estimate was being prepared, the quarterly statistics relating to old age and blind pensions had shown a continuous upward trend in numbers and cost since the winter of 1946-47. At the 30th September, 1950, the actual number of pensions in payment was 161,509. Since the Estimate was framed, however, the figures for the 31st September, 1950, and 31st March, 1951, have come to hand and show decreases to 161,232 and 156,638 respectively. The decreases were due to deaths of pensioners which, in these two quarters, amounted to the unprecedentedly high total of 11,917. This figure exceeds by more than 4,000 the numbers of deaths in the two previous winter half-years and it exceeds by 2,300 the number of pensioners who died in the bad winter of 1946-47.

I have had the death rate for old age and blind pensioners over the past 20 years examined and find that for the year ending 31st March, 1951, 120 per 1,000 pensioners was the highest, while the rates in the three previous years, viz., 92, 89, and 94 per 1,000 were the lowest. This unprecedented and unfortunate death rate will affect the Estimate already made. It now seems probable that, in all the circumstances, there will be considerably less than an average of 164,000 pensioners in the year 1951-52 and a lesser sum paid in old age pensions as a consequence. In view, however, of the fact that the Government has introduced legislation which will increase pension rates and effect further modifications of the means test and that, in consequence, a Supplementary Estimate will later be required to give effect to the increase, I do not propose now to reduce the provision sought for old age and blind pensions.

The provision for children's allowances shows a slight increase on the amount provided last year. This is a continuation of the trend over recent years in which there has been a steady increase in the number of children's allowances claimed.

There is a small increase in the amount required for unemployment insurance and an appreciable decrease for unemployment assistance in the current year as compared with the amount required last year. The Estimate is based on the unemployment position at the end of 1950. There is a small increase in the amount required for widows' and orphans' pensions which reflects the continued increase in the number of these pensions in course of payment. There is also a small increase in the amount required for national health insurance which is due mainly to the increase in the Exchequer grant in respect of expenditure on benefits and administration. The expenditure on benefits of which the Exchequer provides two-ninths has shown an increase in recent years, due, in part, to an increase in the number of insured persons and, in part, to the increasing popularity of the non-cash additional benefits such as the dental, optical and hospital benefits.

The last Vote with which I have to deal is that for Miscellaneous Social Welfare Services. The increase in the amount required under this Vote is due to an anticipated increase in the expenditure on school meals by way of grants under the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, 1914 to 1930.

The trend of expenditure on social welfare has been upwards for the last 20 years. It is interesting to note that the expenditure from the Exchequer on all the services now administered by the Department has varied almost uniformally over the years. In 1931-32 it was £3,351,000; in 1947-48 it was £11,262,000 and in 1950-51 it was £12,762,000, so that we have for the 16 years from the end of March, 1932, to the end of March, 1948, an average increase in expenditure of £500,000 per year. In respect of the three years from the end of March, 1948, to the end of March, 1951, we have an exactly similar increase of £500,000 per year. It would, therefore, appear that the late Government had maintained the average increase that was there for the previous 16 years. My predecessor in office, Deputy Norton, was able to maintain the pace in increase of social services that was set by Fianna Fáil.

To-day, a Chinn Comhairle, I introduced a Bill dealing with old age pensions which will be circulated, I hope, in a few days. It is practically on the lines of the proposals made by my predecessor when he was dealing with the Social Welfare Bill on Second Stage earlier this year. The Government intends to bring in a comprehensive Bill on social welfare as soon as it can be drafted. It will be on the same lines as those given by my predecessor on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Social Welfare Bill that was brought before the Dáil. No time will be lost in bringing that comprehensive Bill before the Dáil.

I suppose it would be unreasonable to expect the Minister, after a short time in office, to give us any detailed survey of the Department of Social Welfare as time was not available for any such survey by the Minister. As he quite rightly points out, the Estimates are sound, having been prepared by the previous Government. He can rely upon the prudence of the officials. That must be a great source of consolation to him to-day and should console his spirits during the remainder of the financial year.

I would like, at this stage, to express my very sincere appreciation of the work of the staff of the Department of Social Welfare during my association with them. The present officers of my Department worked zealously and enthusiastically. While I made inroads on their time and probably on their patience and on their toleration, I must say that in return I got only kindness, co-operation and understanding from them. I would like, therefore, to put on the records of this Dáil my very sincere appreciation of the help and assistance which I got from these officers. I feel sure that the new Minister, who is not unfamiliar with the Department, will find he will get the same loyalty and the same co-operation from an excellent set of officials.

The Minister was getting rather puppish when he came to talk about old age pensions and social services generally. One thing we did in the past three years was to push the whole question of social services into the forefront of national affairs. We have taken social welfare services out of the ruck and brought them up to the top of the queue. If there has been a wide discussion on social services during the past three years, it was because of the manner in which we brought those services to the forefront, making them what they are in most other progressive countries, namely, a prominent subject for discussion.

We have during the past three years, by means of the White Paper and by means of the discussion which it aroused, and even by the heat which it sometimes engendered, given people an appreciation of the principles of social security and of the difficulties which must be surmounted in any intelligent approach to the application of an enduring scheme of social security in the special circumstances of this country. I think that is a considerable achievement. I think that is something which must help any Minister and any staff concerned with disseminating a wide knowledge of social security and social welfare generally. I think during the past three years, however much we may have differed as to the proper approach to problems affecting social security or however much we may have felt that taking a different course would be a wiser line, we nevertheless succeeded in attracting public attention to a problem which will tend more and more to absorb the time of Parliament and which will tend to appear more and more in the forefront of public discussion.

I think, whatever view we may take individually of social security, that is all to the good in a country like ours, which is almost invariably inclined to turn its back on problems because many of our people are unfortunately too lazy to study the difficulties involved in the solution of them. Anything that contributes to a better and a broader understanding of social security, irrespective of whether it is pro or con a particular scheme, has much to commend it because knowledge gained of social security, or indeed of any other problem, is the lightest of all burdens to carry.

The Minister said, and I welcome his statement, that he will introduce an old age pensions Bill which will follow on the lines indicated by me here a short time ago. I feel, and I am glad that he feels the same, that an increase is due to old age pensioners and blind pensioners. We had proposed in the Social Welfare Bill introduced by us to increase the amount to £1 per week and to modify the means test. I am glad that that part of our programme will be continued. Any Bill designed to provide for these additional benefits will receive a warm welcome from both sides of the House.

I would like to tell the Minister frankly that I do not like the ring in that portion of his speech relating to the main scheme of comprehensive social security. From what the Minister said and from the economics on which his own scheme is based, I have a feeling that it will be a long time before we see a comprehensive scheme of social security. Probably this is not the time to become acrimonious but the Minister will find, now that he has the service of the officials of his Department at his disposal, that he made a trifling error of over £3,000,000 in his calculation of the cost of widows' and orphans' pensions when he hurriedly prepared the scheme he adumbrated when the Dáil adjourned after the discussion on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare Bill. Can the Minister to-day be any more precise than he was then and can he give us now some indication as to when we are likely to see a comprehensive scheme?

As Minister, it fell to my lot to decide hundreds of matters affecting the introduction of the last scheme. All these decisions in principle have been taken. An administrative staff was set up for the purpose of devising an administrative machine for the implementation of a comprehensive scheme. Records of all kinds have been made. Plans were made to introduce the scheme and I had hoped myself that it would be possible to introduce a comprehensive scheme in January next. True, my officials thought I was cutting the time rather fine. They asked that such a scheme should be deferred until 1st April because they felt the task I was imposing on them was a very heavy one. But it was my view all the time that we should aim at 1st January next; their view was that we should aim at 1st April.

I would like to know now from the Minister if he can give us some indication to-day as to when he thinks his scheme is likely to come into operation. I would also like to know whether we may assume that the scheme will follow the lines indicated by the Minister when he was in opposition. If that is so, then the Minister of course has made no provision for certain services included in my Bill. He made no provision for the retirement pension which was a cardinal principle of my Bill. Are we to understand then that retirement pensions will disappear completely in the new Bill? Are we to understand that those issues upon which the Minister was silent when he issued his counter scheme will not be embodied in the new scheme? As the Minister has pulled aside the curtain to some extent in revealing his intentions in respect of social security, perhaps he would give us some indication now as to whether we may definitely assume that the Minister intends to kill the scheme of retirement pensions at 65 and whether he intends to do nothing in respect of the other services which were not mentioned in the alternative scheme submitted by him.

I tried to be complimentary to Deputy Norton but he did not take it as a compliment. I said that he maintained during his term of office the pace set by Fianna Fáil in relation to social security. Over our 16 years we had increased social services by £500,000 and Deputy Norton continued that for three years. Deputy Norton has said that he has prepared public opinion for social welfare. That is something to claim and I am grateful to the Deputy that we have public opinion on our side.

With regard to the comprehensive scheme, I have not been able to find out how long its preparation will take. I am anxious that there should be no delay. I think myself that it should not take very long to change our legislation in such a way as to relate it to the proposals made by me on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party when that Party was in opposition. I have not yet succeeded in finding out from the staff of the Department or from the Draftsman's Office whether or not they consider it to be a very big job. I sincerely hope we will have the Bill passed through the Dáil before the end of this year.

Perhaps I was mistaken in my calculations, but if the scheme costs more than I anticipated, I am sure Deputy Norton will not object, however much he might have objected as a Minister. If I made that mistake when speaking on behalf of Fianna Fáil, then we will stand over the mistake.

I do not want to go into the big question of retiring allowances. I did make it quite clear that any insured person would not suffer as a result of the changes proposed by me. I said that the rates payable by means of unemployment or sickness benefits, as the case may be, would be as high as the retiring allowances. I do not think it will make any great difference to a person between 65 and 70 if the amount of money he receives is the same, irrespective of whether it is called unemployment insurance, sickness benefit or retiring allowance. I do not think the Deputy need have any fears that those between 65 and 70 will be treated any worse than they would have been under the measures proposed by the Deputy when he was Minister. I think the Deputy will agree with me that it is difficult to discuss a matter of this kind on the Estimate and I think we must wait until the Bill comes before the House.

Did I gather from the Minister that it is the intention to drop the retirement allowances at 65 years of age?

Yes. When dealing with this matter on the Second Reading of the Social Welfare Bill introduced by the last Government I said that my alternative proposal was that between 65 and 70 a man would receive unemployment insurance or sickness benefit at the same level as retiring allowances and that the allowances would be given at 70 instead of 65. To put it positively, I think a man should be encouraged to work rather than discouraged from working between 65 and 70.

I am not quite clear as to which set of proposals the Minister is standing over.

There was only one set.

I want to know whether he is standing over the proposals indicated in the House by him on the 2nd March, or whether he is defending the proposals, and whether he is going to put them into a Bill, that were decided by the Fianna Fáil Party at 13 Upper Mount Street on the evening of the 2nd March and which were published in the papers of the following day? Which set of proposals is he standing over? Are we to understand that it is the proposals decided upon by the Fianna Fáil Party on the evening of the 2nd March and published in the papers the following day or will the Bill follow the line of criticism the Minister offered on the Second Reading of the Social Security Bill when he spoke here on the morning of the 2nd March?

I did not know that there was any difference. It is the first time I heard it. Whatever I said in the Dáil holds.

What about the one you decided upon in Mount Street?

What is the difference?

You ought to know. You were in such a hurry that evidently you did not stop to consider it.

Deputy Davin and Deputy Norton are not satisfied that we are bringing in much better proposals.

I am asking you to state the difference between your two proposals.

There was no difference.

Are you standing over the proposals which you outlined in the debate on the Second Stage of the Bill on the 2nd March as being the Fianna Fáil attempt at social security, or are you standing over the proposals adumbrated as having been considered at a meeting of the Fianna Fáil Party in 13 Upper Mount Street on the evening of the 2nd March and published in the papers on the following day?

Whatever I said in the Dáil holds. I do not believe there is any difference?

Oh, indeed there is.

Would the Deputy look at them and tell me what is the difference?

If there is any difference, then it is the Dáil proposals that are going to hold?

Yes. I should like Deputy Davin to let me know what is the difference.

The Minister's figures were out by £3,000,000.

Deputy Norton stated during the election, and he was followed by the then Taoiseach, that the widows' and orphans' pensions under my proposal would cost £10,000,000. They said that my proposal would cost £10,000,000 more than his.

Your proposals would involve taxation of £10,000,000.

Deputy Norton and the then Taoiseach said that my proposals would cost £10,000,000 more than his.

Will you read my speeches on it?

I am sick and tried of reading your speeches.

Will you not try to learn something from them?

Deputy Norton stated and the then Taoiseach evidently believed him, that my proposals would cost £10,000,000 more than his.

What I stated was that on an actuarial calculation as I stated on the Social Security Bill——

Oh, yes, you went and got cooked figures.

That is a reflection on your officials.

I am saying that that is not true although Deputy Norton advised his Taoiseach at the time that my proposals would cost £10,000,000 more than his.

May I point out that this did not come out on Second Reading?

Acting-Chairman

The Minister has concluded.

The Minister did not make any statement relating to the concluding portion of the new scheme thought out at 13 Upper Mount Street. It was stated that the Government scheme would cost £3,500,000 in increased contributions from employers and employees plus £3,000,000, increasing to £4,000,000 after five years, in taxation. That was the estimate of the Fianna Fáil Party in regard to the Government proposals. In regard to the alternative proposals, he did not say so much in this House. He said that there would be no increase in contributions but an increase of £4,600,000 in taxation. You did not say that in the Dáil.

Did I not show any increase in contributions?

No, you should read it.

The Deputy should read it again.

Vote put and agreed to.
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