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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1951

Vol. 126 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £4,384,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1952, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928; No. 14 of 1940 (secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (sec. 23); etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

In view of the very short time since I assumed office Deputies will, I know, not expect me to have made myself adequately informed of the activities of the Department or to have examined its policies. In presenting this Estimate, therefore, I propose to do no more than give an account of the working of the various services during the year 1950-51 and to indicate the Department's proposed activities for the coming year.

The gross Estimate for 1951-52 amounts to £6,980,066 but, allowing for receipts to be appropriated in aid, the net Estimate is for £6,712,000. This represents an increase of £1,204,130 over the net provision for 1950-51. This figure is not that shown in the published Volume of Estimates (page 297) but there is a simple explanation of the difference. Because of the early date by which the Estimates Volume had to be circulated this year, it was not possible to show, as is the custom, the effect of the Post Office Supplementary Estimate approved by the Dáil on the 14th March, 1951. This Supplementary Estimate was for £19,270 and this amount should be deducted from the increase of £1,223,400 shown in the Estimates Volume to get the net increase of the 1951-52 Estimate over the previous year's figure. In making comparisons later between sub-heads of the Estimate, account has been taken of the provision made by the Supplementary Estimate.

Of the net increase of £1,204,130, £806,600 is required for the purchase of reserve stocks of engineering maintenance stores and general postal stores. The balance is required for increased expenditure under several of the various sub-heads.

The more substantial variations on the sub-heads (those of £5,000 or more) occur on the following:—

Sub-heads A (1), A (2) and A (3)— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—The increase of £65,670 under these sub-heads is mainly attributable to increased provision for staff to meet the expansion in Post Office business, for normal incremental increases and for approved rates of payment for the delivery of telegrams.

Sub-head D—Purchase of Sites—The increase of £28,500 is for the acquisition of sites for premises.

Sub-head E (1)—Conveyance of Mails by Rail—Decrease, £16,525. The decrease is mainly due to an expected reduction in our inter-State payments to Great Britain on account of the changed incidence of cross-Channel parcel post traffic. This reduction is offset by increased provision for the carriage of letter mails by rail.

Sub-head E (5)—Conveyance of Mails by Air—Decrease, £33,600. This is due to the fact that heavy arrears of air mail accounts, mainly from the U.S.A., were received and discharged in 1950-51. The reduced provision to be made this year is offset by this Administration's share of the cost of the new cross-Channel night air mail service.

Sub-head G (1)—Stores (other than engineering)—Increase, £75,250. The increased provision is required to meet anticipated heavier expenditure on miscellaneous reserve stores.

Sub-head G (2)—Uniform clothing— Increase, £184,300. The bulk of the increase is for reserve stocks of cloths, serges, cottons, etc.

Sub-head G (3)—Manufacture of Stamps, etc.—Increase, £45,760. For purchase of reserve stocks of watermarked paper used for the production of stamps, postal orders, etc.

Sub-head I (1)—Engineering Establishment—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—Increase, £25,800. This sub-head provides for the total pay of the engineering branch staff, less the cost of staff time devoted to the development of the telephone service (as distinct from its maintenance) which is defrayed from telephone capital funds. The increased provision made is for maintenance and renewal work.

Sub-head K—Engineering Materials —Increase £561,000, due in the main to the purchase of reserve stocks and to higher prices.

Sub-head L (3)—Contract Work (Engineering)—The increase of £66,550 is mainly in respect of anticipated increased payments for work to be undertaken by contractors, including modernisation of the coast wireless stations at Malin Head and Valentia.

Sub-head M—Telephone Capital Repayments—Increase £131,561. Funds for the development of the telephone system are provided under the authority of the Telephone Capital Acts (1924-1946) which authorise the Minister for Finance to issue sums out of the Central Fund for this purpose. Repayment of these funds is made by means of terminable annuities extending over a period not exceeding 20 years. In consultation with the Minister for Finance provision is made each year under this sub-head for the repayment of the instalments of principal and interest on the annuities created. The increased provision in the sub-head is an indication of the continuing expansion of the telephone system.

Sub-head N (1)—Superannuation Allowances, etc.—Increase £5,700, attributable to an increase in the number of pensioners and to greater provision for marriage and death gratuities.

Sub-head Q (2)—Provision and Installation of Equipment, etc.—Increase £7,800. Due to larger provision for airport construction works.

Sub-head T—Appropriations-in-Aid —The decrease of £46,154 here results mainly from the cessation of payments by the British Government in respect of the staffing of the Malin Head and Valentia wireless stations.

The financial position of the Post Office as a whole is not satisfactory. In 1947-48 and 1948-49, there were deficits amounting to £99,611 and £200,612 respectively. At the end of 1949-50, the latest year for which complete figures are available, another deficit resulted, this time amounting to £167,251. In that year the postal services and telephone services combined to show a profit of £115,576 but the heavy loss of £282,827 on telegraphs turned the scales.

The completed revenue and expenditure figures for 1950-51 are not available, but preliminary figures suggest that there will be an even heavier deficit in that year, perhaps of as much as £500,000. Furthermore, as compared with 1950-51 considerably higher wage rates are already in operation in this year (1951-52) for some sections of the Department's staff. The recent Civil Service arbitration award and other proposals for increased pay affecting the Department's staff which are in various stages of examination are obviously exceedingly costly and, if granted, will produce a further deterioration in the financial position. In addition, the Department is laying in heavy stocks against an emergency and these will have to be paid for either out of revenue or borrowed moneys. Increased annuity charges consequent upon capital sums advanced for development also substantially increase the annual outlay.

It is impossible for me at this stage to anticipate the outcome or the full effect of these matters, but it is at least clear that the Department's financial position in the coming year will be considerably worse than last year. In the recent Budget speech the former Minister for Finance dealt with this worsening position and, having drawn attention to the Department's traditional policy of making its services pay for themselves on a commercial basis, indicated that increases in charges have become necessary. The Irish Post Office is not alone in having to take this step. Other administrations have recently been obliged to revise their charges or are preparing to do so. I am aware from information available to me that the former Administration before leaving office had approved and were preparing to introduce certain increased charges with a view to reducing the deficit. I am having these proposals examined in the light of the whole financial position.

The internal mail services generally are working satisfactorily.

A special night air service between Dublin Airport and Ringway, Manchester, was introduced on the 12th March last for the conveyance of a considerable portion of the cross-Channel mails. The service is on a charter basis and is being used for both first and second-class mail (that is all mail except parcel mail) in each direction between here and Great Britain. Over 1,000,000 items weekly are being conveyed by the service. No additional air mail fee is being charged. Cross-Channel correspondence posted up to 6 p.m. at the General Post Office and College Green Branch Office, Dublin, and correspondence included in day mail despatches from the main provincial centres connects with the despatches by the night air service, which leaves Dublin Airport at 8.20 p.m. The mails secure first delivery next morning over the greater portion of Great Britain, including first delivery in London, which represents a very big improvement on the service obtainable by means of the mail steamers. The air service reaches Dublin Airport at 11.45 p.m. on return from Ringway and inward mails received by it secure the first morning deliveries in Dublin and district and day mail delivery in the main provincial centres.

On the 7th May last a further important development in the use of air services was brought about with the introduction of a day air-mail service to Great Britain supplementary to the night mail charter service. First-class mail, that is letters, postcards and letter packets for a large part of Great Britain, is forwarded by morning Aer Lingus planes from Dublin. Postings reaching the Dublin Sorting Office between 6.15 p.m. and 5 a.m. are forwarded in the new despatches, including night mail postings from provincial centres. Letters for London are being delivered on the day of despatch.

The Department is continuing to retain the use of the sea service as the present night air service could not accommodate all the mails available and provision must, of course, be made for occasions on which the air service cannot operate because of adverse conditions, for Saturday night despatches (when no advantage would be gained by having the mails conveyed by air) and for periods of pressure such as are experienced around Christmas, St. Patrick's Day, Easter, etc. So far the new service has operated very satisfactorily and a big improvement in the cross-Channel mail service has been effected as a result.

There has been a general growth in the volume of inland letter mail traffic. There was, on the whole, some decline in the volume of parcel post traffic during 1950 but since the beginning of this year an upward trend has been manifest.

The normal operation of the mail services was adversely affected during the year by the occurrence of the partial railway strike over the Córas Iompair Éireann system, which took place on the 18th December last and lasted until the beginning of February of this year. The strike involved the setting up of a complete network of special road services to deal with letter mail traffic. Despite adverse conditions and the unprecedentedly heavy volume of mail handled during the Christmas period, the emergency services worked satisfactorily and the letter mail service was fully and effectively maintained. Because of the strike and the inability of the company to carry parcel traffic it was, unfortunately, necessary to impose a temporary suspension on the acceptance of parcels for a period of a fortnight from the 18th December to the 31st. As from the 1st January, however, the railway company was in a position again to accept parcel post on the trains that were running and the service was restored as from that date. During the period of the rail strike no restriction was, of course, placed on the size of letters or packets which might be sent by letter post, so that the suspension of the parcel post did not involve a complete suspension of the conveyance of sizable articles by post.

So far as the foreign mails are concerned the volume of traffic continues to be high and the air mail services are continuing to be used extensively. Because of the heavily increased conveyance charges for air mail and in order to comply with the requirements of the Universal Postal Convention, to which this country adheres, it was necessary recently to revise the postage rates for air mail and for foreign surface mail. Advantage was taken of this revision to unify the air mail charges on letters and postcards which previously varied from country to country. The second class air mail service which had previously been available only to North America was extended to all overseas destinations as and from the 1st March.

Regarding the rural postal services, the work of revising them with a view to giving daily deliveries on restricted posts and improving the arrivals and despatches of mails generally was continued throughout the year and new services were introduced in the Gorey, Birr, Wicklow and Tullamore districts. The Nenagh postal district has also been revised and it is hoped to introduce new services there at a fairly early date. Revisions or partial revisions of eight other head office districts are receiving attention at present and at least six of these should be implemented during the current financial year.

The arrangements in hands for modernising and improving fittings and equipment in sorting offices throughout the country continued to receive attention during the year. Specially designed conveyor bands were installed at the chief parcel office in Amiens Street, Dublin, and in the Dublin letter office a conveyor band system, mechanical facing table equipment and modern sorting fittings were installed. Improved fittings were also installed in several of the main provincial centres.

In order to facilitate the public, arrangements are being made to extend the introduction of stampvending machines at offices throughout the country and 100 new machines have recently been received.

In September last, a special stamp in three denominations was issued to mark the occasion of the Holy Year. The stamps were produced by the recess process and received favourable comment from the public and philatelists generally. This country also participated in an International Philatelic Exhibition held in Madrid in October, 1950, and the Irish display at the exhibition evoked favourable comment.

During the year, 17 new sub-offices were provided and money order and savings bank facilities were extended to 14 existing sub-offices. Fifty new letter boxes were erected.

It is unfortunate that an increase in the loss on the telegraph service has again to be reported. This is due in the main to the increase in salaries and wages which became operative towards the end of 1948, but also to some decrease which took place in traffic and consequently in revenue. I have been informed by the Department that the telegraph service generally has been under examination in an effort to improve its financial position and efficiency and that, towards that end, the question of an extension of the use of teleprinters to replace morse working is being considered. Provision has been made this year for teleprinters for a number of telegraph circuits. The investigation into the service is being pursued actively but, having regard to the general experience throughout the world of losses on telegraph working, the most that can be expected here is that the loss will be curtailed.

A major difficulty affecting the operation of the telegraph service is that of providing satisfactorily for the delivery of telegrams from small offices where the employment of a regular departmental boy messenger would not be justified. At offices where there are only a few telegrams a day to be delivered it would be uneconomic to provide a messenger to "stand by" for the work and consequently a messenger must be sought by the subpostmaster to deliver each telegram as it arrives. In many districts it is not easy for sub-postmasters to secure the services of casual messengers. It has just been decided to pay higher fees to casual messengers engaged for the delivery of telegrams and this, it is hoped, will improve the position considerably.

A sum of £34,000 is included in the Estimate to obtain transmitting and receiving equipment and to provide for other items of apparatus for the coast radio stations at Malin Head and Valentia. A good deal of the existing equipment is old and out of date and the expenditure is necessary to modernise the station.

Some years ago telegraph or telephone radio communication was established with those islands off the coast on which there was a fair population. The equipment, which depends on wind chargers to keep the batteries charged, is not thoroughly efficient but no better type of apparatus was hitherto available. The laying of a submarine cable would be a fairly formidable job and the cost would be prohibitive. The Department is now, however, studying with interest developments in the provision of more efficient radio apparatus for island requirements and if, as is expected, these developments prove fully successful the newer equipment will be installed where needed. A sum of £7,000 has been provided for this purpose in the Estimate.

The telephone service continues to expand. During 1950 the number of trunk calls was 9,432,000, an increase of 482,000 on the figure for 1949. Local calls increased by 6,000,000 to 68,000,000.

As in the two previous years the Department concentrated its main engineering effort on the installation of telephones, and continued the policy of dealing with the accumulation of applications in bulk by exchange areas. 6,800 lines in all were connected, 4,815 of these being connected to exchanges in Dublin and the other main centres of population and 1,985 to exchanges in smaller towns and villages. The total number of subscribers exchange lines in service on the 31st December last was 52,506 of which 36,069 were in Dublin and other large centres of population and 16,437 in the rest of the country.

For several years past the demand has been steadily growing and 1950 showed a still further increase. The greater the number of telephones in service the greater is the value of the telephone to subscribers and the rapid growth of telephones therefore stimulates demand still further. Every effort will continue not only to keep pace with demand but also to whittle down the arrears of applications on hands. This problem of arrears is one common to all telephone administrations.

During the year progress was made with the extension of the capacity of the Dublin automatic exchanges so as to cater for additional subscribers. Some 100 exchanges throughout the country were extended. At four provincial exchanges, An Uaimh, Drogheda, Dungarvan and Enniscorthy, the exchange switchboards, which were worn out and of an obsolete pattern, were completely replaced by new switchboards of modern design. There now remain only four exchanges where switchboards of this pattern are in use and, as these switchboards are nearing the end of their useful life, it is proposed to replace them within the next year or two.

A small automatic exchange of a type intended for use in rural or semi-rural areas was installed at Castleisland— this being the first provided outside the Dublin district. Since the beginning of this year two further exchanges of the same type have been opened—at Swords, County Dublin, and Mitchelstown, County Cork. This type of exchange gives full automatic service for local calls, i.e., subscribers dial all local calls in the same way as subscribers in Dublin do. They are also enabled to dial directly subscribers connected with other automatic exchanges within a certain radius, at present limited to 12½ miles. This latter facility cannot be availed of at present at Castleisland and Mitchelstown because there are no other automatic exchanges within 12½ miles of either of them. When a subscriber connected to one of these automatic exchanges requires a trunk call he dials "O" and is answered by the operator at the trunk exchange to which his automatic exchange is connected. That operator then sets up the connection required.

It is proposed to install these unit automatic exchanges in towns in which there are expected to be between 100 and 400 subscribers within the next ten to 15 years. There are approximately 120 such places at present. It will, of course, be many years before this full programme can be completed.

It is hoped during the current year to open a main automatic exchange in Dublin to serve central city subscribers. A new automatic and trunk exchange at Dundalk will be opened next month. All Dundalk subscribers will then be enabled to dial their local calls in the same way as Dublin subscribers do.

In pursuance of the policy already announced of giving 24-hour service from the larger exchanges continuous service was introduced at 60 additional exchanges during 1950. At a recent date approximately 93 per cent. of subscribers' lines were connected to continuous service exchanges and another 3 per cent. were being given continuous service by switching their lines through at night to distant exchanges. Of the remaining 4 per cent. which had not continuous service, approximately half had service up to 10 p.m. on week-days and the remainder up to 8 p.m.

Work on the scheme for installing call offices in rural post offices was resumed early in 1950 and some 150 call offices have since been opened. There are still about 700 post offices to be dealt with and, as most of these are in remote areas, heavy construction work is involved in bringing the telephone to them. The scheme will, therefore, take several years to complete. In order to enable the most rapid progress to be made without interfering unduly with other urgent work, the offices to be dealt with are selected mainly on engineering considerations. The programme for the current financial year provides for the installation of 137 call offices. Thirty new kiosks were erected during 1950. It is hoped to erect at least as many during the current year in the areas where the greatest use is likely to be made of them. This is the determining factor in the selection of sites.

A number of additional trunk circuits amounting to a total of 2,700 miles was provided during the year. Owing to the steady increase in trunk traffic in recent years, there is, however, still considerable delay on calls during the busy hours on many routes, and I understand that, owing to the volume of urgent engineering work in sight, it will be some years before such delays can be fully eliminated. As many additional trunk circuits as possible will be erected during the current year and they will be provided on the routes where the need for relief is greatest.

The underground cable from Dublin to Cork via Portlaoighise and Limerick, with spurs from Portlaoighise to Waterford and Athlone, has now been almost completely laid, but testing, and the installation of equipment required for full functioning of the cable will take about another year. In the meantime, short distance circuits have already been brought into use on part of the route between Dublin and Portlaoighise and it is hoped to obtain some circuits in the Mallow-Cork sector shortly. Other short distance circuits will become available gradually over the next year, and it is hoped to have some few long distance circuits to Cork and Limerick within the next six months. When the full number of circuits provided by the cable becomes available on any part of the route, delay over that part is eliminated; and when the whole work is completed within about a year, there should be no delay to calls on any part of the cable route. The laying of a trunk cable from Dublin to the Border will begin next month.

The existing skilled engineering staff of the Department is insufficient in number to enable all phases of telephone development to be proceeded with as quickly as could be wished. In the past three years, the main construction effort has been devoted to installation of new telephones. This concentration on connecting new lines for subscribers has meant that less could be done to improve the trunk service for existing subscribers. I propose to consider carefully whether a somewhat greater proportion of the engineering effort should be devoted to improving the service to existing subscribers, but if this is to be done, it will, it is feared, be for the present at the cost of reducing the rate of connection of new subscribers. The real need is, of course, to ensure that all phases of telephone development can receive adequate attention and I shall consider urgently what it is possible to do to reach this position.

So far as the Department's building activities are concerned, fair progress was made during the past year. Works completed include a new automatic exchange building at Dundalk, a telephone repeater station building at Limerick, a temporary post office at Loughrea and three new automatic exchange buildings at smaller centres. Structural alterations to improve accommodation were carried out at several offices.

The new main telephone exchange building and telephone headquarters at the rere of Hammam Buildings are nearing completion. Other new building works at present in progress include: post office and telephone trunk exchange at St. Andrew Street, Dublin; mechanical transport repair shop and garage at St. John's Road, Dublin; engineering garages and workmen's headquarters at Distillery Road, Dublin; automatic telephone exchange at Mount Merrion, Dublin; automanual exchanges at Waterford and Athlone and reconstruction of Cork head post office.

Work will commence in the current financial year on a number of automatic exchange buildings and on the provision of new post offices and telephone exchanges at Drogheda, Kilrush and Rathluire. Improvement schemes at Ballina, Clonmel, Cahir, Boyle, Clifden and at a number of other offices are also due to commence. Site difficulties have held up a number of schemes at such places as Galway, Letterkenny and Wicklow, where new buildings are proposed, but relief measures are being taken where practicable and the difficulties referred to are being disposed of as expeditiously as possible.

Plans for the provision of a central sorting office in Dublin had to be extensively revised in the light of the substantial growth in postal traffic in recent years. Re-examination revealed that the increased demands could not be met, as had been contemplated, on the site of the existing sorting office in Pearse Street and that a new site would have to be obtained. Inquiries to this end were instituted and negotiations for the acquisition of a suitable site are now nearing completion. In view of the urgent need to replace the existing inadequate sorting accommodation, everything possible will be done to expedite the planning work and commencement of building operations on the new site.

The Post Office Savings Bank as a medium for savings continues to be popular with the general public. Deposits for the year totalled £11,286,000, exceeding withdrawals by £3,094,000. The amount, including interest, to credit of depositors at 31st December, 1950, was £48,133,000 as compared with £43,920,000 at the end of 1949. The amount remaining to the credit of depositors at the end of various three-year periods may be of interest to Deputies. The amount in 1939 was £10,650,739 and had increased by 1942 to £16,742,875, an increase of £6,092,136. By 1945, the amount was £32,653,360, an increase of £15,910,485. By 1948, the total was £38,981,315, an increase of £6,327,955, and in December, 1950, the amount had increased by £9,151,685 to £48,133,000.

The total amount invested in Savings Certificates during the year ended 31st December, 1950, was £1,409,000 as compared with £1,440,000 in the preceding 12 months. Withdrawals, principal and interest, amounted to £1,355,000 as against £1,217,000 in 1949. The amount remaining invested at the end of 1950, exclusive of interest, was £13,012,000 as compared with £12,561,000 at the end of 1949.

The amounts remaining invested at the end of various three-year periods were as follows:—1939, £7,717,487; 1942, £8,220,571, an increase over 1939 of £503,084; 1945, £11,053,620, an increase over 1942 of £2,833,049; 1948, £11,979,488, an increase over 1945 of £925,868, and 1950, £13,012,000, an increase over 1948 of £1,032,512.

The figures for 1948-1950, while showing improvement over some previous periods, are short of what would be desirable under present economic conditions.

Under the scheme for conciliation and arbitration for the Civil Service a departmental conciliation council was set up in the Post Office. It held its first meeting in May, 1950, and since then a number of important claims by staff associations have been submitted to it. The meetings of the council are characterised by a spirit of goodwill and a readiness to examine both sides of a case with an open mind, and the existence of this spirit augurs well for the future of conciliation machinery in the Department.

The Department's policy of keeping under review its organisation and methods of operating was continued during the year with satisfactory results. I should like to assure the staff of all grades that the zealous and efficient service which, the Department assures me, has been given during the year is greatly appreciated.

In concluding my observations, I should point out that the plans for telephone development were being prepared in the years before 1948 and were one of the objectives regarded as of vital national importance by the Government of that day. These plans are now being implemented and the Minister who held office before me, it is only fair to say, gave active encouragement to this work.

I was glad to hear of the progress that was being made in the utilisation of air services for mail deliveries. I hope that the Minister will use his best endeavours—I am sure he will—to push on this development. I am not quite certain whether there is a direct mail service to London yet: I think that, so far, the mails are delivered to Manchester and there sorted and distributed in England. It always occurred to me that there should be a possibility of arranging a direct mail service to London, thereby saving, as far as mails to London are concerned, a fairly considerable proportion of time and handling. We have a number of direct air services to London every day and it might be possible to avail of them to carry mails.

There is one other matter I would like to mention; the Minister adverted to it and I am sure he will keep it before his mind. It is the necessity of providing radio communication with many of the islands off the coast. I know that in the winter months especially, the lack of communication is often the cause of great hardship. The cost of providing small radio transmitters on some of these islands would be negligible in proportion to the whole Estimate and I think it is a matter which should be kept well before the Minister.

On the question of the general finances of the Post Office, I think that, on the whole, the Post Office is to be congratulated that its finances are not in a worse condition. The Post Office has had to undertake very considerable expansion in recent years and I hope that no attempt will be made to restrict that expansion, which is so necessary. I know that the Post Office suffers from a shortage of technical staffs and I often wonder whether that shortage does not arise from the mistaken belief that the expansion is purely of a temporary nature. I think that for many years to come, at least for 20 or 30 years, our Post Office will still be expanding, to catch up with modern development. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that the question of the provision of additional permanent technical staffs should be considered by him. It might in the end be cheaper and make for greater efficiency.

There is a quotation which has been getting a certain amount of publicity through being made the title of a book published some years ago: "On Another Man's Wound." I think it could apply to the Minister who has read us this interesting account of the work done during the period over which he had no responsibility for it and where I see he is taking credit for another man's work. It is probably for that reason that he is conscious himself of the fact, when referring to the work for which he is in no way responsible, that he was able without embarrassment to refer in the terms he did to the question of conciliation and arbitration. Conciliation and arbitration now, of course, is a settled type of machinery and it is already working through various Departments. Among the phrases used about it in this statement in connection with the Post Office we find:—

"The meetings of the departmental conciliation council are characterised by a spirit of goodwill and a readiness to examine both sides of a case with an open mind."

As long as the Government with which the Deputy was connected was in office, no effort was made to provide such conciliation and arbitration machinery and there was no effort to examine both sides of the case. There was one side, the official side, and that went. If there has been anything in the way of proper conciliation machinery, it certainly did not come in with the approval of the Government to which he previously belonged. At any rate, it will probably help him in association with unknown members of the Northern Parliament who now find that he has come over to this matter of arbitration. I understand he was quoted yesterday in Stormont as a person who decided to discuss our business here with a member of another Parliament and recommend a policy of arbitration for the stockholders who are members of a railway concern which is the subject of discussion and determination between the two Governments.

I am not sure whether he is responsible for one change in the typescript, one interesting change in the early part of it. The document as drafted had the phrase: "The financial position of the Post Office as a whole is far from satisfactory." The two words "far from" have been struck out and the word "not" put in. I do not know whether the Minister is responsible for that change in emphasis with regard to the rather bad and deteriorating position of the Post Office. However, I think the typescript might be amended still further in order to make it up-to-date at least with what his colleagues are doing.

At the start of the proceedings to-day we were told that the new Government have accepted the arbitration award of the 24th May and that it will be implemented. In this document we are told:

"The recent Civil Service arbitration award and other proposals for increased pay affecting the Department's staffs which are in various stages of examination are obviously exceedingly costly and, if granted, will produce a further deterioration in the financial position."

They have been granted, I understand. I do not know if I heard it aright, but that is the way it sounded as I heard it read. This phrase sounds ominous: it seemed as if there were to be some pulling out by the Department which is responsible for a greater number of civil servants than any other Department. I do not know the figures exactly, but there are roughly 34,000 civil servants and almost half of them are in the Post Office. If there is to be any change with regard to arbitration or the implementing of the recent award, in connection with Post Office staffs, that change of course would affect about 50 per cent. of the employees of the State.

May I interrupt the Deputy, to clarify the whole position? The statement was issued at a time when, so to speak, in a legal sense, the increases had not been granted.

The Minister just decided to read this "early edition"?

Yes, that is the position.

When I saw that somebody thought fit to amend this statement in the slight particular I have mentioned, describing the financial position as "not satisfactory" where the typescript described it as "far from satisfactory", on reading the typescript I thought the more critical phrase was the one which was more consonant with what the rest of the typescript disclosed.

I notice another point. The typescript goes on to say:—

"In addition, the Department is laying in heavy stocks against an emergency and these will have to be paid for either out of revenue or borrowed moneys."

I suggest there is an alternative. I suppose that what was decided in the Budget statement that I read this year could be described as payment out of borrowed moneys, but I think it is rather straining the term to say that one is going to allow payments for certain stocks to be put on the taxpayers for the year in which the stocks are used.

As I read this it would appear— whether it is an early edition I do not know—that there is still some doubt whether these emergency purchases or forward purchases are to be paid for out of current revenue. If that is so the deficit in the Post Office will certainly be far higher than anything so far incurred; the deficit will, of course, go up. The typescript contains one part of a phrase from what is described as the Budget speech. I said:—

"The increase is mainly in Post Office revenue and is due to normal expansion of business and recent increases in certain postal charges which form part of a plan to redress the serious discrepancy between Post Office costs and receipts and restore commercial solvency."

Later on I said:—

"It is traditionally the Department's policy to make its services pay for themselves on a commercial basis and, to achieve this, increases in charges have become necessary."

That refers to increases already brought into operation, not to increases which may be in contemplation. I went on to say:—

"The Irish Post Office is not alone in having to take this step. Other Administrations have recently been obliged to revise their charges or are preparing to do so."

When that was written, of course, the award of the 24th May had not been published. Earlier to-day we were told that the award in a full year—I leave out arrear payments, as that is a complicating factor—in its application to civil servants would cost £1,250,000. That applies to some 33,000 civil servants, 16,000 to 18,000 of whom are servants of the Post Office. They are in the lower grades, of course, and they will absorb more than 50 per cent. of the cost of that full award. If the Post Office is to follow its traditional policy of raising charges to meet the cost of its services, whatever deficit was forecast prior to the award will have to be magnified by the addition of about £600,000. If that is the case the House should know and the country should realise just what increases in Post Office charges are likely to be brought about.

The arbitration award has to be paid back to the 15th January. There will be in this year two and a half months' extra payments and those payments will, I assume, be made right away. If they are, extra expenditure will have been incurred and will go on over each week and over each month as the rest of this year goes by. We are now in the month of June and I do not know whether it will be possible to have increased Post Office charges brought in with any speed. If extra payments should fall to be met in the year, a very big deficit faces the Post Office this year. The Minister has referred to increases in charges that had been considered by the previous Administration. Quite a number of charges were proposed for our consideration. Some of these had, as far as I was concerned, been found acceptable, while some were found definitely unacceptable, as being very heavy and imposing a rather severe burden on a certain portion of the charges for Post Office services.

The increase in State expenditure announced this morning of £1,250,000 as far as the civil servants are concerned, and with equivalent increases to the Army (all ranks) and to the Guards, will mean a charge, we were told to-day, in a full year of £2.4 million. Facing that, I do again emphasise the necessity for announcing to the public whatever new charges are to be made by the Post Office at the earliest possible date. I should mention also that the £2.4 million includes nothing whatever for the teachers who are going forward to arbitration on their own and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility or even of probability that some payment will be recommended for them. If it is anything like the award made to civil servants or the equivalent grant to be made to other Government servants, the £2.4 million bill will swell to something very much heavier indeed.

In order to give the public a better appreciation of his point, I think that the Minister might make an addition —it could possibly be made at a later stage. Bank and Savings Certificates statistics are of particular importance to the people of the country and they should appreciate that the staff of the Post Office plays such a large part in gathering in all these small savings. To a great extent the Post Office provides the machinery for small savings. It must be remembered, of course, that for the last three years these savings will be in addition to whatever subscriptions were given to the national loans which were floated in each of these three years by people who normally would have made small savings. They are all savings to the country and it is not a fair representation of Savings Bank and Savings Certificates not to relate them to the very big subscriptions which were made to each of the national loans floated in each of these three years.

I would like to raise the question of the exchange in Claremorris, County Mayo. The matter was raised on a number of occasions in the 11th and 12th Dáil by the Deputies of my constituency, but since then very little progress has been made to ease the situation. I understand that the Minister comes to my county on various occasions for holidays and I wonder if he ever had the experience of putting a call through to Dublin or anywhere nearer home from Claremorris. If he had he would have found that he had to wait from one to three hours to secure the call. It would be much quicker to travel by train or car, as you would be in Dublin by the time a call would be through. The Minister's predecessors promised Deputies from South Mayo on a number of occasions that the matter would be attended to, but so far nothing has been done. It is most unfair to subscribers in South Mayo who use that exchange and who pay revenue to the Minister's Department. As you all know, the telephone plays a big part in business but if you must wait for three hours in the post office or in your home before you can make contact with this city, it is a bad state of affairs.

I would like to impress upon the Minister that the whole system, not only in Mayo but everywhere else, is not up to date. Here in the City of Dublin if one wants to phone only from one street to the other, there is great difficulty in getting through, and one does not always receive courtesy. I think that the matter might very well be overhauled. I do not intend to say any more on that point as I am new to the House. I was not present for the Minister's explanation. I know he is new to his Department and is merely presenting another Minister's Estimate. He is not responsible for what has been happening over the past three years and, for that reason, I do not intend to be hard on him or to dwell too long on that particular subject. Let us hope that if this Government continues in office for the next year some effort will be made towards bringing about a change in the situation, as far as my constituency is concerned, and as far as subscribers in Mayo as a whole are concerned.

I now come to the question of auxiliary postmen. The auxiliary postman is a person who gives very good, honest and honourable service. Yet he receives very little consideration. Many of these men have given service for 20 or 30 years. The sub-postmaster's job is not an easy one; in wet weather and in fair weather he must do his duty— which means hard work. He has got to be honest and it is very hard lines that, after 20 or 30 years' service or perhaps longer, he gets no remuneration in the latter days of his life. I think it is most unfair that a man who has given such good service to the State should be dispensed with by his Department when he reaches the age of 70 years, or is no longer able to work. In his old age he has nothing to fall back on except whatever little savings he has managed to put aside. If he is a married man who has raised a family, we can all well imagine what he has been able to save! If he is lucky he has a few pounds at his disposal for the rainy day.

With regard to the question of the weekly half-holiday in sub-offices throughout the country, I agree that sub-postmistresses or sub-postmasters should have a half-holiday. However, it does sometimes happen that a half-holiday follows in succession to a Sunday and a bank holiday. That means that the sub-office is closed for three days. I think this is a most unfair situation in a rural area, and the Minister should take the matter up with the association or organisation concerned, and try to get them to realise that, while the Department agrees that the sub-offices should have a half-holiday, they think it unfair to the public that such half-holiday should be availed of when it follows a Sunday and a bank holiday, or even a bank holiday. In Mayo a very large amount of business is transacted in most of these sub-offices, as a big percentage of the people have emigrated to Great Britain and America. In consequence these offices have to handle heavy mails, money orders and telegrams. Apart from the business point of view, I think it is very unjust to the community that a sub-office in a town like Swinford or in other towns should be closed down for three days in succession, or for two days in succession. The association in which officials of the sub-office are enrolled should give some consideration to that state of affairs and the Minister should, at his earliest possible convenience, bring that fact to its notice.

I wish now to refer to the employees in these sub-offices. The Minister is well aware, and so are many members of this House, that these people are not paid a remunerative wage in relation to the hours they work and the duties that they carry out. In many instances this results in fraud and theft. As the Minister is aware, such has occurred over a number of years, and I would say that, in most cases, it arose out of being underpaid. Whether it be in sub-offices or in any other occupation where the employee is not sufficiently paid, we are putting him in danger of doing the other thing to secure the difference between his rightful wage and that which his employer pays him. You are creating a source of temptation, particularly if he has responsibilities in life as a married man or if he has other responsibilities. The Minister should look into that matter. It is unfair that young men and young women should be in the employment of an important Department or in the employment of sub-post offices and not be properly paid. It is not right and you can hardly blame people if they stoop to something which they should not do. It arises in most cases out of being underpaid.

I would like the Minister, at his convenience, to consider the points I have mentioned, namely, the exchange in Claremorris, the auxiliary postmen, the half-holiday, and the staffs employed in sub-offices throughout the country.

Another point which has come to my mind is that it is much easier to get a telephone into a private house than it is into a business concern. I cannot understand that for the life of me. I think the business community of this country are worth considering whether they be in a large or a small way. I know many people, such as mineral water companies, breweries, solicitors, doctors, who require urgently the use of a telephone and cannot secure one, but if I, or any other private citizen, want a telephone, I can secure it in a very short time. If it is needed as a means for the development of business, to give more employment, for the extension of business, one has to wait a considerable period of time, perhaps a year, 18 months, or even two years. I do appreciate that during the war years it was difficult, owing to the scarcity of material. That difficulty should have been overcome by now and the material required for the installation of telephones should be in large supply.

I would ask the Minister that in regard to future applicants for the installation of telephones, people who require them for the furtherance of their business—solicitors, medical men and that type—should get prior consideration. Furthermore, I would ask the Minister to see that in every sub-office in rural Ireland a telephone is installed. In regard to a number of villages in County Mayo representations have been made—I am sure the Minister will find them if he looks up his files—and so far nothing has been done. A telephone is availed of by a large section of the community.

No village, no matter how small, and no sub-post office, no matter how small the amount of business transacted in it, should be without a telephone to-day. It is essential that a telephone should be available if a person wishes to call a doctor or a priest or to transact some important business. I do not know the present position as regards crossChannel communications but if it is as bad as our inland system then we are in a deplorable state indeed. I ask the Minister, through his Department, to give prior consideration to Claremorris exchange.

I welcome the Minister's statement that his Department have 100 stamp machines on hand. They should be distributed among the small towns and the new housing schemes in our cities. The residents of Cork Road housing scheme, Waterford, have to walk up to two miles in order to secure a 2½d. stamp. It is mostly working people who experience difficulty in procuring stamps. The post offices are open during their hours of employment and when these people have the leisure to write a letter in the evenings or on Sundays they find they are unable to purchase stamps because the post offices are closed. The provision of stamp machines in appropriate places would help very materially to ease that position.

The Minister has stated that a good deal of money has been spent on advance buying. I trust that we have laid in an adequate supply of copper wire and telephone equipment. Every rural district and every small town should have at least one telephone kiosk. In rural areas it is usual for sub-post offices to close at 7 o'clock. The Civic Guard stations have, in the main, been the centre of communication and have delivered urgent messages. I understand that there is now a proposal to close the barracks at 7 o'clock and if that happens it will mean that the people in the areas in question will be completely cut off as regards telephonic communication from 7 o'clock each evening. It is essential, therefore, that kiosks be made available in order to enable people to call a doctor or a priest, when necessary. We owe it to the people on the land to provide them with every possible service in order to induce them to remain on the land and continue the essential work which they are carrying out. The Minister should see to it that his Department's engineers will continue the job of installing telephones in small towns and rural areas. He should ensure that this important work will not be neglected.

The Minister also states that his Department have under consideration the question of increased charges. Increased charges, unless they are very modest, may have the effect of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. If the charges are unreasonably high the people will have to do without the facilities which they would otherwise avail of.

I join with Deputy Cafferkey in appealing for consideration for auxiliary postmen. I believe they are the Cinderellas of a Cinderella service. By reason of the nature of their work, which is supposed to be part-time, it is impossible for them to secure employment for the balance of the day. They are out in all weathers and they work for a miserable wage. I do not suggest that that is the fault of the present Government or of any other Government, but if the Minister addresses himself to the solution of that problem he will earn the gratitude not only of the auxiliary postmen but of all the people who benefit by and appreciate the work done by them. These men deliver letters in bog areas, in swamp areas, in mountainous areas, and in rural areas in general, thus enabling the people in those parts to keep in touch with their friends who live in the towns and cities.

Like Deputy Cafferky, I also should like to mention the importance of giving attention to the position of auxiliary postmen. It is vitally important for us to realise that by the time these men complete their rounds in rural areas there is not much of the day left. They must, therefore, live on the sole wage they get in the service of the Post Office. At the end of their days it frequently happens that they have to retire on a small gratuity.

I cannot altogether agree with Deputy Cafferky in the matter of the half-day. In many rural areas the people in the sub-post offices do not seem to enjoy the half-day at all yet. These people should be in a position to enjoy a half-day. It will be found that, within a very short time, people will get used to the system which is in operation in our towns and cities, where every establishment closes for a half-day every week. That facility should be made available to every subpostmaster and every sub-postmistress in the country.

My approach to this Estimate to-day is the same as it would have been had I happened to be sitting on the Government side of the House when it was introduced. I believe that due recognition must now be given to the Minister who was in charge of this Department for the past three years. I do not wish to say anything harsh but I feel that if the present Minister and his Party were sitting on the Opposition Benches to-day there would have been a lot of opposition to this Estimate. Even at this late stage, I think that due recognition must be accorded to Deputy Everett for his administration of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and for the efficiency of the staffs in the various departments of the Post Office. We realise that this important Department has much to do with the daily lives of all our citizens from the businessman down to the old age pensioner.

In the past few years the Cork postal district has gained the advantage of a daily delivery of mails. People in many remote areas were handicapped because letters were delivered only every second day and often only once or twice in the week. For the past 12 months or so, the people in those areas have had a daily delivery. That speaks well for the organisation and the work of the Post Office authorities.

I am anxious that, at the earliest moment, a system of daily delivery will apply in the Bandon postal district. I appreciate the fact that, for some time, the possibility of having it has been under consideration. I know, of course, that a daily service will be provided in that area some time, but what I am hoping for is that it will be at as early a date as possible.

With regard to the provision of public telephones and extra sub-post offices, I was one of the Deputies who were stressing their importance in the various areas for some time. I appreciate the fact that the last Minister, over the last three years, adopted a system which, I understand, was put up to him by the Post Office authorities. Undoubtedly, it has worked very satisfactorily. Instead of adopting a piecemeal system of providing public telephones simply to suit individuals, the former Minister adopted a system of working in block areas. I believe it is the only system which will give real satisfaction, because it will make sure that at the earliest possible date the rural areas will be supplied with a proper public telephone system.

I agree with Deputy Kyne that it is of vital importance for the people in rural Ireland to have a public telephone system in their areas. If the inhabitants in those areas are left without such a service, then they are very seriously handicapped, particularly in cases where the services of a doctor or clergyman are required urgently after 7 o'clock at night. I hope that the system of providing public telephones, which has been operated within the last couple of years, will be further expanded to meet the requirements of people living in remote areas. If an up-to-date system of telephonic communication is soon made available for them then the disadvantages from which they have suffered in the past will be removed.

I should like to say that Cork City has gained immensely by the improvements which have been carried out to the Post Office building in that city. I think nobody appreciates that more than the staffs engaged in that building. Heretofore, they had to carry out their work at a great disadvantage. It is a great satisfaction to them to find that the bad conditions under which they were obliged to do their work have been completely altered for the better. In the future, they will be able to do their work under decent conditions. From the health point of view, the improvements carried out are of the utmost importance to the staff.

I should like also to urge on the Minister the possibility of providing extended telephone facilities on Sundays in sea-side areas. In my experience the lack of such facilities on Sundays has meant the loss of a few lives. That was so last year at Garrettstown in County Cork. We all know that a big number of people flock to these sea-side resorts on Sundays during the summer months. Perhaps, if we had a satisfactory public telephone service in operation on Sundays at these sea-side resorts, lives could have been saved and these tragic drownings would not have occurred. It may be that there are certain difficulties in the way of doing what I ask, but I would urge the Minister to consider the matter, and see that, in those areas where there is a public telephone service on week days, it will be extended to Sundays up to 7 or 8 o'clock at night.

I will conclude by urging on the Minister to speed up the provision of a daily postal delivery in the Bandon area. I know it is under consideration, but what I am asking is that it should be introduced at as early a date as possible. I know it takes time to do that, and I am not expecting miracles. I also hope that the Minister will consider the position of the auxiliary postman and the demands that are made on him. He has to be out in all kinds of weather, winter and summer. He has to work to a pretty regular time-table. His time is checked pretty severely. He is subject to an overseer who, of course, has to do his own work, and very often may have to question him if he is ten minutes or a quarter of an hour over his time. I hope that the Minister will consider the position of the auxiliary postman and also an extension of the public telephone system, a matter which was very capably dealt with in the last few years. I believe that, if the Minister is able to deal satisfactorily with the matters to which I have referred, in 12 months' time every member of the House will come to realise that the Post Office is one State Department which is giving a good return.

Deputy Cafferky has spoken about the needs of South Mayo. He referred to the Claremorris area. What is true of Claremorris and South Mayo is also true of Ballina and of the towns in North Mayo. We, in the North Mayo area, use the telephone extensively. What Deputy Cafferky stated in regard to South Mayo is true of the North Mayo area and applies to many towns there such as Ballina, Belmullet, Ballycastle, Killala and others. Deputy Cafferky referred to delays of one, two, three and four hours in making a call. I do not want to say that these delays are due to any inefficiency on the part of the staffs in North Mayo. As a subscriber, I can say that I am quite satisfied with the staffs in our post offices in the North Mayo area. They carry out their duties in an efficient manner. Having said that, I would ask the Minister, in this matter of the telephone service and the Post Office generally, to consider the position in what may be described as the very neglected area of North Mayo. In that area of North Mayo we are very far removed from the City of Dublin and in most cases we are very far removed from hospitals. For that reason, I ask the Minister to give special consideration to the matter. The truth of the matter is that, in the North Mayo area and in Mayo generally, we seem to be the most neglected people in the whole of Ireland. Since consideration is not given to us in other matters, the very least we expect is to be given good telephonic communication.

I understand that the Minister has in mind—as had his predecessor—the purchase of additional equipment. I also understand, not from the Minister but from various officials who have been connected with Post Office work, that it is the practice of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to buy second-hand equipment from other countries. I think that if that was the practice in the past it is a practice that should be discontinued at once. If we buy second-hand or inferior equipment it follows, of course, that you will have breakdowns from time to time and our servicing costs will be very high. For that reason I would advise the Minister to buy, if at all possible and if it is obtainable, new equipment instead of purchasing second-hand equipment.

As a Deputy from North Mayo, I should like to impress upon the Minister the necessity for special consideration for the auxiliary postmen. Mayo is rather a mountainous county and this makes it difficult for these men to get round. I say, as Deputy Cafferky and others have said, that these men should get very special consideration. In my own particular area very old men are doing the rounds to-day as they did many years ago. They are very poorly paid and they have seen many winters. The job is very difficult and the roads are not so good. I should like to impress on the Minister that their pay should be increased, and substantially increased.

I should also like the Minister to provide a 24-hour, round-the-clock, service in all our towns. It is true that we have a 24-hour service in some of the towns but, if at all possible, I should like that to be extended to all the towns in Mayo.

I do not want to delay long on the subject, since it has been dealt with very well. I am just making those few points to show how we are affected in North Mayo. I expect that the Minister will give these matters serious consideration. As I stated at the outset, we are affected in many ways in North Mayo and the least we should get is good telephone and post office services.

Mr. O'Higgins

There is one matter I would like to raise. It is rather a local matter. I received some complaints with regard to the reorganisation which has taken place in the postal deliveries in the Clara area in Offaly. I am told that the reorganisation which has taken place recently has resulted in some inconvenience in the town of Clara, both to postal officials and people in that area. I know that general reorganisation has been carried out in the last 12 or 18 months by the Minister's predecessor, but I would like if the Minister, at his convenience, would investigate that particular area of Clara, where, I am informed, certain inconveniences are caused both in the post office and to residents in that area. As far as residents are concerned, apparently the postal delivery is now much earlier than previously and, with parcels and other deliveries of that kind, it has meant that residents in the area are disturbed at a much earlier hour. I should like if the Minister would investigate that particular matter.

I would like also to join with other Deputies who have raised the question of pay and allowance for different postal officials. I raised this matter previously when this Estimate was discussed. I have nothing to add to what has already been urged by other Deputies. I think that the entire matter should be reorganised.

May I also join with Deputy Desmond in his tribute to the Minister's predecessor? I should have started, perhaps, by congratulating the Minister on his selection by this House as a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and wishing him not a long life as Minister, but every success for the short time he will be there. In doing that, I must congratulate Deputy Everett, whose Estimate we are now discussing, for his excellent work. As a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs he has been maligned by that former Independent Deputy for the County of Wicklow, Deputy Cogan, who is now the second Fianna Fáil Deputy for that constituency. Deputy Everett was consistently maligned by Deputy Cogan as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Certainly his reputation as Minister, his conduct of his Department and his work in office were recently judged by the people he represents in the constituency of Wicklow. Decisively they decided in favour of Deputy Everett and against Deputy Cogan. No doubt Deputy Cogan, bearing a grudge against the people he represented, endeavoured to work out that grudge by deciding against their wishes and putting Deputy Everett from his post as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I feel that if the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs endeavours, even in some small way, to carry out the policy of his predecessor, he will be administering this Department in an excellent and in an efficient manner. I do not think he will be long there. I have no doubt that by the time the next Estimate comes up Deputy Everett will occupy the Minister's place in this House, but so long as the present Minister is there I can only commend him to carry on the policy of his predecessor in endeavouring to improve the conditions of postal officials, the conditions for the ordinary public and, generally, bettering the services available to subscribers and ensuring fair play. That is what the Minister's predecessor did.

I should like the Minister, at his convenience, to inquire later into a particular local matter which I raised, because I am informed that it has caused concern in my constituency.

There are one or two matters to which I would like to direct the Minister's attention. In the course of his speech to-day he referred to revisions of rural services. In so far as these have proceeded very valuable work has been done from the point of view, firstly, of improving the organisation of deliveries and collections in the areas concerned and, secondly, of expanding part-time posts to full-time posts. It is to the latter portion of the beneficial effects of such revisions that I want now to refer. I know the Post Office has carried out some of these revisions. The Minister indicated in his speech the areas covered, but there are still very substantial portions of the country which have not yet been touched under these proposed revisions. While I know that the Post Office is at heart sympathetic with the idea of proceeding with the revisions, unfortunately it does not seem to have the tools with which to do the job. I think that particular section of the Post Office is altogether understaffed. If my memory does not mislead me, I think there is, in fact, a vacancy in that section and it is on that vacant post that the continuance or suspension of these revisions really depends.

I, therefore, would like to direct the Minister's attention to the fact that this is vital work, that it is urgent work and that it is work which should not be neglected merely because it is difficult at the moment to fill a particular vacancy. Wherever staff can be got they should be got for the purpose of proceeding with the revision of rural post offices because by carrying out that work you can provide daily deliveries and give better delivery and collection services, which will in turn enable you to expand part-time posts to full-time, with a consequent improvement in the present rate of remuneration of part-time postmen.

To me it seems a complete distortion of values to find ourselves talking in 1951 about air lift for letters and circulars, about the installation of automatic exchanges in rural areas, about radio telephony to the islands and about a dozen and one other mechanical processes which crop up during the year in relation to the telegraph and telephone services while, at the same time, we are not able to organise the Post Office services on the basis of giving full-time employment to many thousands of officers serving in that Department.

I do not know if the Minister is aware of the matter, but it is a fact that thousands of persons have been employed as part-time officers in the Post Office for upwards of 40 years. Whatever the mentality was in the Post Office approach to part-time employment 40 years ago, I do not think any person is to-day intellectually so poor as to try to justify part-time employment and part-time rates of wages. While, as I say, I give the Post Office credit for having cultivated, especially in recent years, a much more liberal approach to the problem of expanding part-time posts to full-time posts, the problem is still so big that it justifies taking special measures to bring to an end what can only be described in 1951 as a scandal, namely, that men should be employed on part-time duties at part-time rates of wages and expected to live, in many cases with no other employment, on the rates of wages offered for part-time posts.

I would direct the Minister's attention to the continuance of that problem. It is not a new problem. It has existed down the years. It was the method first adopted in order to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria away back in 1897. Because we wanted to celebrate Victoria's Diamond Jubilee with a daily delivery in rural areas, unfortunately Irish auxiliary postmen have been crucified with part-time employment at part-time rates of wages ever since. It is time that relic and memory disappeared. The best way we can remedy the situation is by organising the services on the basis of providing full-time employment for every person employed in the Post Office service.

I would like the Minister to concern himself with that problem in particular. I do not say the Post Office has not liberalised its view on the matter, especially in recent years, but I would urge upon the Minister that he should give more attention to the problem. It is a blot on the entire Post Office service that it, the largest Department of the State, should still permit this problem of part-time employment to defy solution. I do not think the problem can be solved very easily. If the Post Office recognise the basic principle that it is wrong that men should be employed on part-time duties at part-time rates of wages and if it accepts that as being wrong in principle, then there is no insuperable difficulty in abolishing that evil by replacing that part-time employment with full-time employment.

The other matter to which I want to draw the Minister's attention is the question of Post Office buildings. Anybody who has any long association with the Post Office knows that the work it does to-day is far in excess of that which it undertook 30 years ago. Practically every new social service in one aspect or another is thrown upon the Post Office. Old age pensions, expanded as they have been, children's allowances, widows' and orphans' pensions, methods of rationing and the collection of coupons—services which have grown up rather rapidly in the last 25 years—have all turned to the Post Office for their administration, with the result that the Post Office to-day is carrying out work for which it was never originally intended. I do not complain because it does that work. I think it is an excellent agency. I think it has an excellent staff for carrying out that kind of work. What we must remember is that the Post Office is endeavouring to fit into the same old buildings work which is three or four times greater than it was 25 and 30 years ago.

That brings me then to the necessity for providing up-to-date accommodation for the transaction of Post Office business. Many of our post offices to-day are just the same as they were 50 years ago. It is in these buildings, some of them dark and dreary edifices, that the Post Office staff to-day is trying to do the greatly enhanced volume of work which now falls to its lot. Unless the Post Office seriously bestirs itself, I can see that problem still with us 50 years hence. I have always thought it desirable that the Post Office should have control of the power of making decisions to meet its own needs; in other words, that it should do the work itself, after ascertaining its needs, out of money allocated on a repayment basis by the State. Unfortunately, all the building of all the Departments is concentrated in the Board of Works. I hope I will not hurt Deputy Donnellan's feelings now when I say that if one wants the Board of Works to do anything quickly, that institution quickly cures any impatience one may develop. Everybody is tugging at the Board of Works. One Department wants a post office; another Department wants a school; some other Department wants offices.

It has to work for all.

Everybody is tugging at the Board of Works. When one approaches the Office of Public Works to find out the reason for some delay, one is told that they cannot get staff. When one asks why the Board of Works cannot get staff one is told that it is because the board's proposals are held up in the Department of Finance. Then you sit down and wonder where you should go next. If you go to the Department of Finance and say that you approached the Board of Works, they will tell you they gave them staff two years ago. You find that you get nowhere, with the result that unless you are a crusader you just give up the struggle altogether, leaving it to them to complete the building in their own good time. My experience of the Board of Works was that the only person who got any attention was the person who was able to insist on having his representations dealt with immediately.

The Board of Works is like the fond father from whom the crying child gets most attention. If you approach the Board of Works with a quite and patient demeanour, you will find that you will be the second last in the queue; the quieter you are, the less you will get. Your only chance of getting anything done is by forcing the issue. If you adopt really gentlemanly tactics you will get nowhere. I do not know whether the Minister would like to enter the field as a gladiator against the Board of Works, but I can assure him that writing plaintive letters marked "Urgent" will have no effect whatever on the board. You might as well try to keep back the Atlantic with a fork as to expect to get any attention for such letters from the Board of Works. That has been my experience and I recount it for what it is worth. I do not think the Board of Works changes its tactics even when there is a change of Government and I draw the Minister's attention to the necessity of fighting his corner so as to have erected for the Post Office the many necessary buildings which the Post Office requires to provide for the accommodation of its staff and the transaction of public business.

Before the Minister concludes, I want to raise one matter. I should like the Minister to indicate what is the present position in regard to the appointment of sub-postmasters. I understand that, during the course of the past year, a reform was introduced into the Department by which the power of making appointments was taken out of the Minister's hands and put into the hands of a Selection Board. I should like if the Minister would give us some details as to how the Selection Board works. Is it completely immune from ministerial interference? I should like to ask is the recommendation of that board final or has the Minister the last word? If the position is that the board has absolute and complete powers similar to those of the Local Appointments Commission or other bodies of that kind, I think it is a satisfactory arrangement because I think the old tradition in regard to Post Office appointments was bad and an incident which happened during the past year revealed how evil it was. Deputy O'Higgins went out of his way to launch an attack on me.

Mr. O'Higgins

Was that an attack? You have not heard anything yet.

He suggested that in some way I had maligned the Minister's predecessor. Nothing, I think, would be further from my wishes or desires than to malign Deputy Everett. Deputy Everett is my fellow Deputy for Wicklow and he and I have always been the best of friends. (Interruptions). When the position arose in regard to the Baltinglass appointment, I had to take a very definite stand and I took that stand. To suggest that in taking that stand in defence of ordinary fair play and decency I was maligning the then Minister is absolutely absurd. Does Deputy O'Higgins suggest that the parish priest of Baltinglass was maligning the Minister when he said: "I am convinced that your Minister has done a grave injustice in appointing Mr. Farrell to the position."

Who wrote that letter?

"I am with my people in their agitation." That letter was written by the late parish priest of Baltinglass and it was written to the then Taoiseach. I think, in view of that fact, the Minister will acknowledge that there was complete justification for, and a complete vindication of, the stand which I took in that matter. The fact that the person appointed was able to hold the position for only 11 days shows that the appointment was altogether an unsatisfactory one. Since the matter was raised by Deputy O'Higgins—I had no intention of raising the matter since there has been a change of Government—I should like to ask in connection with this appointment, which of the two applicants for the position which was advertised, Mr. Farrell and Miss Cooke, was recommended by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? Which applicant was given priority in the recommendation to the Department, Mr. Farrell or Miss Cooke? I should like to have a clear and definite answer to that question.

There is another matter on which I should like some information. What was the total cost of transferring the post office in Baltinglass for a short time from Mill Street to Cuckoo Lane and what was the cost of re-transferring it to Mill Street? I should like to have the exact figure in regard to the whole transaction, the full and complete figures.

What about the telegraph and telephone poles that were cut down?

I think there was a great waste of public money. The people cut down more than telegraph poles and telephone poles. They cut down jobbery and corruption, and they have rendered a great service to the nation.

A Deputy

What about Major-General Dennis and the Masonic Order?

The former Minister for Agriculture and other Deputies imitating him have ventured to bring the name of Major-General Dennis into discussions in this House. There has been a major general election since this matter was raised——

A Deputy

And you only scraped in.

——and the election has dealt rather severely with some of those people who tried to brazen out the grave injustice by adopting the methods——

Were you not last in the list?

Mr. O'Higgins

He scraped in. He got the Fine Gael vote, but he will never get it again.

The fact remains that I increased my poll in Wicklow by 700 votes, while the Labour poll went down substantially, as Deputy Everett can testify.

Did you not get all the Freemason votes—Basil Brooke's fifth column? Did not every Freemason in the county vote for you?

Deputy Everett, the ex-Minister for Agriculture, and Deputy O'Higgins, by raising this cry of sectarian bigotry, are helping to strengthen and fortify the Border between the Six Counties and the Twenty-Six Counties. They should go back to school again. I think it is true to say that most babies are reared on milk, but it seems that the milk on which the O'Higgins's babies were nurtured was vinegar and gall. Perhaps they might refrain from injecting bile and venom into every public discussion.

Mr. O'Higgins

They react to dishonesty, as every decent person does.

I do not want to be drawn by Deputy O'Higgins into saying all that might be said in regard to this unsavoury transaction—an unsavoury transaction such as was described by one of the Ministers of the former Government who stated that unsavoury transactions are inseparable from Party politics. That was the statement of Deputy MacBride. I pointed out that if Deputy MacBride and his Party had taken their stand for clean government on the occasion of the Baltinglass appointment they might have saved not only their Party's soul but a substantial portion of its body. However, they decided in the wrong way, they marked out their own destruction and they dug their own grave. I should like to think that the fight made by the Baltinglass people has resulted in a permanent improvement in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

I should like to think that in future no such unjust appointment will be made as that which was made in Baltinglass. I should like to feel when appointments are being made in future that long service to the Department, though it may not be direct service, long service to the public in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs will be recognised and rewarded. That would be only in accordance with ordinary decency and justice. I trust that the Minister when replying will make it clear that as a result of the fight made by the Baltinglass people there has been a substantial improvement in the matter of making those appointments. I hold that every citizen of this country is equal; that every citizen is entitled to equal fair play and justice. I hold that entry into the public service and promotion in the service should be on the basis of merit and merit alone.

Who gave the post office to the Cooke family? Major-General Dennis.

That principle should be accepted. I do not think that anyone in his senses would dare to stand up and defend the action which the former Minister took in Baltinglass. As was pointed out by many people, particularly by the priest of the parish, a grave injustice was done and such an injustice ought not to happen again. I have no intention of pursuing the matter further. I should like the Minister, however, to make some comment on the statement which was made by the father of the postmaster who was appointed at that time— Mr. Farrell—when he stated that the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs had promised him this position two years before when he failed to secure a local rate collectorship.

Will you repeat that story outside?

It is as correct as the story that you were offered a parliamentary secretaryship.

I should like to know if that statement is correct because it was definitely made in the presence of reputable persons—that an appointment can be made because it was promised by the then Minister two years before to a colleague. The position which arose in regard to Baltinglass Post Office has ended for good. I should also like to comment on a statement which was made recently by the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs before he went out of office in which he accused Miss Cooke of having made a statement for which he would demand withdrawal in his position as Minister. I think that that represented a petty victimisation. In the same way, his attitude towards the Guards, when he threatened them with action because they failed to persecute the Cooke family and their supporters, was also a grave interference with the administration of a Department over which Deputy Everett had no control. I think that is one of the reasons why the ex-Minister proved himself to the majority of this House unfitted to retain office as a member of the Government.

What did you leave the Guards for?

Another important matter was raised by Deputy Norton. Here again I think Deputy O'Higgins should take Deputy Norton in hands and seek to prevent him from defaming the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Deputy Norton drew attention to the fact that there are a large number of persons working in the post office on part-time rates. I think that is a gross scandal. Why that should have been allowed to continue for three and a half years while a Labour Minister was in control I do not know. I know that in my own parish there is a very efficient auxiliary postman working for 43/- a week for a six-day week. It is true that he does not work a full day each day. But the fact, remains that he leaves his house to go to work at 9.30 in the morning and returns at 4 o'clock. It is very hard for him to supplement his inadequate part-time pay of 43/- in the remaining few hours in the evening. The fact that Deputy Norton so strongly condemns that system is in itself a condemnation of his colleague, the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Deputy Everett did more to reduce that in the last three years than was done in the previous 50 years.

It still exists on a large scale. Perhaps Deputy Norton wanted to "get back" on his distinguished colleagues who described him as a Communist a couple of years ago.

That is the police style.

You should not make misstatements and deny them outside.

Acting-Chairman

If the Deputy did not look for interruptions, he probably would not get so many.

I challenge him to prove that statement. Why did he leave the Guards?

I have raised the question of how those sub-post office appointments are to be made, what is the existing system, has it been reformed or is it only just something superficial, just petty window-dressing. I have also raised the question of the part-time underpaid auxiliary postmen and I hope the Minister will deal with these questions when he is replying.

Deputy Cogan does the usual run-out which is characteristic of him and a few of his friends. When I heard the hooves of the Baltinglass hobby-horses immediately Deputy Cogan rose, I anticipated that we would have seen what we saw before— the gallery filled with the working-class people of Wicklow in fur coats and the quadrangle outside filled with the workers' cars in order to hear what Deputy Cogan had to say about the Baltinglass episode. I do not know if it was very much in order that this discussion should have been allowed, but it seems to have been. Therefore, I suppose I am as entitled as anybody else to address myself to it and to the general principle of appointments which is to be followed in future by the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I want to say, and I think any fairminded person will agree, that I regard the present Minister as one of the luckiest members of the present Government, because he is taking over a Department which has had a reputation for the past three years of being excellently run. Any Deputy in any part of the House who had any reason to make representations to the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will acknowledge freely the fact that service of a kind which is seldom found in any Government was forthcoming so far as Deputies were concerned from the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and from those who surrounded him, his private secretary, to whom great tribute is due and, I am sure, the secretaries of the Department.

We have had this question of Baltinglass bruited about this House so many times that many people must be sick of hearing it. It is interesting to note that issues which appear great to some appear to be of very little importance to the mass of the people. Deputy Cogan, in my view, is one of those people who never learn, who just will not learn. He has been whistling the tune of Baltinglass in the House since the occasion of the appointment of Mr. Michael Farrell, and all to no avail. It must have been obvious even to the most foolish person who ever stood for a Dáil election that the people of Wicklow were behind the ex-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to a man and that they were not behind Deputy Cogan. Deputy Cogan crawled in at the bottom of the poll on preferences which he got from Deputy Everett, and he gets up in this House and, in order to draw a few lines in the paper, harks back to what seems to be the only tune he knows, Baltinglass. Deputy Cogan will find that, compared with what will happen to him when the next election takes place, he has been very lucky in what happened to him recently. He had a very narrow shave recently but I believe the next election will produce an entirely changed situation. The people of County Wicklow who voted for Deputy Cogan did so in the belief that they were supporting Deputy Everett when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Deputy Cogan referred to the wages of an auxiliary postman in his particular townland or the area in which he resides. I do not propose to address myself in that parochial fashion to any individual case. Of course, everybody in the House knows Deputy Cogan's record in so far as the wages, conditions and treatment of workers are concerned. Nobody has fought harder in this House on issues relating to workers to stop the improvement of their wages or conditions than Deputy Cogan. He must have some friend in the area in which he lives who works in the Post Office when he raises this single case. The Dáil should concern itself, not with any single case, but with the whole question of auxiliary postmen throughout the country. Auxiliary postmen are essential to the efficient running of the country. The work which they perform in the Post Office is essential. Many Deputies, over many years, have raised the complaint which I now raise, that these men have not been treated with justice in the matter of wages. It is not right, it is not just, it is not fair to men, most of whom are married, that in this day and age they should be asked to work for 30 or 40 hours a week for a wage which does not enable them or their families to live in any sort of comfort.

It may be said that the position could have been rectified in later years. I believe Deputy Everett, when he was Minister, was making very good progress towards the remedying of that position in recent years. This is a matter which must be tackled by the present Minister, and which should be tackled. The Minister will be able to indicate what he proposes to do. It is quite obvious that it will make for the more efficient running of the Post Office if men who are now badly paid are adequately paid and men who are now working only a couple of hours a day can have their working day extended to the normal average of eight hours, which applies to most workers, and thus have their wages increased to a living standard. This would apply particularly, and should be easy of accomplishment, in areas such as County Dublin, particularly areas such as that which I represent, areas surrounding big cities, where there is a very big population and consequently a very heavy volume of post.

It should not be outside the competence of the Post Office officials and the Minister to make a start in areas such as those surrounding the big cities, Dublin, Cork, Limerick and elsewhere, and so to reorganise the postal service as to ensure that the position of auxiliary postman will be abolished, and that the existing auxiliary postmen will become full-time employees of the Post Office. That can be done if sufficient effort and energy are devoted to the task and sufficient attention is paid to it by the present Minister and, if it is done, it will be welcomed by the members of all Parties in this House.

That is the principal matter to which I wish to address myself on this Estimate. I have already paid tribute to Deputy Everett, who acted as Minister for the past three years. I do not think that anybody will deny the tremendous service which he rendered to the people and to the Post Office. The workers generally will be very happy in the knowledge that he as a Labour Minister was instrumental in having wage increases granted to them, and in having a decision taken before the present Government assumed office which the present Government must honour, and has undertaken to honour in accordance with precedent, whereby the employees of the Post Office will receive an increase in wages on similar lines to that which will be accorded the workers in the Civil Service.

Deputy Cogan has gone. Unfortunately, he went as soon as we took the opportunity to reply. Deputy Cogan in his usual fashion waited until he thought every member of the House had had his say on the Estimate before he tried to get in his stab in regard to Deputy Everett and the Baltinglass incident. I can only say— I only wish that Deputy Cogan were here so that I could say it in his presence—that Deputy Cogan need not think that by harking back to that incident he is enhancing his own prestige or political position. The people have spoken very recently. In my view and in the view of many people outside this House, Deputy Cogan has not obeyed the command of the people in the manner in which he should. That is something for which he will have to answer.

The people have spoken in Wicklow on the conduct of Deputy Everett as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in no uncertain fashion and it remains that we have Deputy Everett in the House, not on any preference votes, not representing the rag, tag and bobtail of the Masonic Order, not representing all the dissatisfied cranks in Wicklow,- but representing the ordinary common decent people and Deputy Cogan is still here, just barely here and for a short time, as the veritable toe rag of the elements to which I have referred.

That is a decent type of speech.

You know all about that.

I want to refer the Minister to the latter portion of his speech in which he said:

"In concluding my observations, I should point out that the plans for telephone development were being prepared in the years before 1948."

If they were, they were never submitted to me. I had to call a conference of the engineers and make arrangements for meeting the demands of the people. I may say that the engineers responded whole-heartedly to my efforts in that connection. I insisted on a reorganisation of the services in the rural areas because I maintained that the men on the hillsides, in the valleys and in the outlying districts were entitled to daily deliveries just as much as the businessmen in the towns and cities. I felt that these people should not have to wait unduly for a wire if a relative were dead or dying, but should have the same facilities, as taxpayers, as the people in the cities and towns. I organised that scheme and I hope the Minister will continue that scheme and will not allow the heavy hand of Finance to turn him down.

In the Department, he has a staff which is equal to, if not better than, the staff in any other service in the State, a staff of good loyal officials whose sole object is to serve the State and the public and he is lucky in that he has such efficient officials. These officials have been recognised as being very efficient not alone in this country but in many of the countries in Europe. They have been offered the highest positions and the chairmen of various conferences have sent messages of congratulation to this country on our having such distinguished men in our service. With the co-operation of that staff, there is no fear of the programme which we set in progress not being continued.

We have heard about Baltinglass and I propose to give the history of that affair. Mr. Farrell and an old lady, who did not produce her birth certificate, applied for the position. He was recommended by a number of Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators. Mr. Farrell was not recommended by any of the Labour members. I knew his people. He himself had served his country and his father's property was burned down by the Black and Tans. The family had to live in a little hut, and the famous Major-General Dennis was the landlord who charged £1 a year ground rent. When the Shaw Commission sat, it awarded Mr. Farrell's father £2,000 for the erection of a house. He erected the house and Major-General Dennis increased the ground rent to £25 per year.

A decent man.

I have nothing against Miss Cooke, and, when it was not popular, I voted for her relatives to fill positions for which they were qualified. Mr. Farrell had no connection with the Black and Tans. He had served this country and not one belonging to him worked in Wicklow as a Tan. Can the other party say the same? When the matter came before me, I did not worry about the Department. These were the two applicants and I selected the one who had served this country and the person who, I believe, was best qualified. During the previous fortnight, two Fianna Fáil men, one from Laois-Offaly and the other from Meath, had been appointed in similar circumstances, simply because they were young men who were about to marry and settle down here instead of emigrating. If anybody in this House were in the same position, what would have happened? Would the appointment have been given to a man who had served his country or to an old lady who did not submit her birth certificate? She said she was 58 years of age. I do not know about that, but I know she came to Ireland some years ago. She was not an Irish citizen. Her people were brought over by the ancestors of Major-General Dennis from Scotland and given jobs in Ireland of which Irishmen were deprived. She was not a naturalised Irish citizen, because she was here only temporarily, so that it was a question of giving it to an Irish or an English person. I decided to give it to the Irish person.

Deputy Cogan has made certain statements and we have asked for proof. He has refused to make them outside. He has said I made a certain statement and I admit I did. Miss Cooke is alleged to have said in a letter to the Press that I suppressed her recommendations. I challenged her and told her that she would be answerable for this libellous statement outside. I did say that. Deputy Cogan said that I had made an attack on the Guards. I never mentioned the Guards. He has again taken the Irish Press report which was supplied by a gombeen shopkeeper and not by a recognised journalist. The journalist sent a report to the Irish Press and it would not be accepted because they had already taken from the gombeen shopkeeper, who was on the protest committee, an alleged report of a speech I never made. I did complain about one individual whose job it was to preserve law and order. I protested against his dining and wining with a cousin of the British queen. I have got the votes of the plain people of Baltinglass. Who were those on the protest committee?—cousins of the British queen, a gentleman from Poland, another from another part of the country and the famous Major-General Dennis, the rackrenter and member of the Basil Brooke fifth column. Thank God, I did not get their support nor do I want it. I got the support of the plain people and Deputy Cogan has the members of the fifth column in Wicklow of Basil Brooke in Belfast, and he can keep them. If trouble takes place, we will send these Brookes and fifth columnists across to the place where their spiritual home is.

Now let me give some of Fianna Fáils history. A post office became vacant some years ago in Kerry. The postmistress there was assisted by her niece, Miss O'Sullivan, in a little shop. She was fully competent and suitable for the vacancy, but she was turned down and a sister of the Taoiseach's private secretary, Miss O'Connell, was appointed to the job. That was the only qualification she had for the job. I am referring now to documents which I have received, not from the Department. That girl is still alive to tell the tale of the vacancy in Caherdaniel post office. Let me give another case —the Waterville post office. The post office there became vacant some years ago owing to the resignation of the postmistress, Miss MacSweeney. There were several applicants.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy can refer only to matters arising from administration during the past year.

We would like to remind them of the various things done.

Mr. O'Higgins

Surely, when the case is made here by Deputy Cogan that Deputy Everett, as Minister, had done something unusual, Deputy Everett is entitled to answer the charge?

Is this the answer?

Is there not a Baltinglass in every county?

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy may give a slight illustration of his point.

Let me give the case of the Ballymacelligott post office, to which the daughter of a Fianna Fáil Deputy, who is still in occupation there, was appointed. In these cases, neither the Broy Harriers nor Basil Brooke's fifth column took any interest. It is only when the poor labouring man whose father was attacked by the Tans comes up for appointment that the Masonic Order in Baltinglass takes any interest. Their number appears in the 1950 directory of the Freemason report of that year. They are there for anyone to see and there you will find some of the prominent people with their names, numbers and lodges. This is the crowd that pretends they are looking after the interests of the people of the country. In Carndonagh the position was given to a Fianna Fáil representative. The removal was done at considerable cost, notwithstanding the hardship on old age pensioners who had to walk half a mile uphill, and it cost £20 a week for five months to keep the Department's staff there. We had Basil Brooke's columns and the lodges siding here in the House but we are in a position now, having that 1950 directory, that we can publish their names and use them on the platforms in the various parts of the country. Mr. Cogan can——

Acting-Chairman

Deputy Cogan.

He is called something else outside at the present time. Deputy Cogan spoke of the parish priest. That saintly priest was dying. We have seen his letter signed by himself, but Deputy Cogan knows who concocted the letter. He did not tell us what the destruction of the telephone poles cost or what the Guards were doing that they could not find out who cut down the poles. It was common knowledge in Baltinglass. What I did protest against was as regards the drinking of wine and the celebration of victory in the presence of the Queen's cousin. Of course, to be associated with royalty was something new for Deputy Cogan. He has not told this House why he left the Civic Guards.

Acting-Chairman

That does not arise on this Estimate.

Probably it will on another Estimate.

For a Parliamentary Secretary's job.

There were statements he made when he got his colleagues at a meeting alleged to be called for farmers, where he could attack us; but I only wish there could be an election very soon and he would find out that the people will give him what they are entitled to give to any man who goes in on one ticket and changes to another.

The Minister has a staff which is second to none and I appeal to him, in regard to the programme outlined, not to worry about the finance part, as there will be the heavy hand against everything that means improvement. If he looks up the record, he will find that for years previously every time we wanted economy it was said: "We will start to reduce the deliveries in the rural areas." We have given the rural areas, one-fifth of the country, a daily delivery at no extra cost. I am proud at the achievements and cooperation of the whole staff over the past three years. There were demands for telephones and no materials, but to-day the Minister will find a two years' supply of materials should an emergency take place. He is not placed, as we were, practically down to one ton of wire. We found people crying out for letter deliveries all over the country, no air delivery, no trains, and a letter taking about three days from Dublin to Wexford. That has changed from the emergency. The trains and aeroplanes are in service and there is a delivery to America. We are proud of our achievement in three years.

I assure the Minister that he will receive the support of this side of the House in his march of progress. I compliment him and congratulate him on being appointed to the position. He has a staff whose whole concern —I do not know their politics, though I have been associated with them for years—is to improve the service and improve the Department. Their one desire was to give the best service they could to the State. So long as that continues, the Minister in introducing his next Estimate, will be able to show further progress in connection with the revision of the deliveries and the improvement of the telephones. I recognise the difficulty in regard to trunk calls, but the Minister will find that the cable has been laid from Dublin to Cork and work is proceeding with the contract signed for the cable from Dublin to the Border to relieve the situation in Drogheda. In those lines of progress he will have the support of the members of the House. I can assure him, as far as I am concerned, that it will be given without any undue criticism. Other things may pass over, but the Post Office remains there.

The Minister will be faced with difficulties, but I hope he will not be faced with the same problems as I had in the last three years—shortage of material, the question of reorganising the whole service, the problem of a strike on the railway last Christmas, and so on. I hope he will not have the same problems and that he will be able to show success in his position.

I am not going into the merits or demerits of Baltinglass or Carndonagh, but I understand that the ex-Minister has set an example whereby we may never again have a Baltinglass or a Carndonagh. I understand a commission of civil servants has been set up and that in future all appointments such as postmasters will be made on the recommendation of that commission and that only. That is a very good thing and it is a tribute to the ex-Minister.

For years past the radio telephone service to the islands in the West and North-West part of the country has been a disgrace. I have known telegrams sent to islands off the coast of Donegal which were not delivered— through the inability of the receiving set to receive them—for seven days from the date on which they were handed in. The ex-Minister took a very keen and personal interest in the radio telephone service to the islands and I am glad to see from the Estimates that he and his staff were instrumental in procuring up-to-date radio telephone equipment for the islands off the West and North-West coast. I hope the present Minister will augment the scheme inaugurated by his predecessor and that in a very short time we will have each and every inhabited island connected with the very latest radio telephone service. I hope it will not be confined to a day service but will be a 24-hour one. That is a duty which we owe to the islands.

Wherever possible, telephone exchanges should not be placed in post offices. The disadvantages of having these public exchanges in local post offices are quite obvious. A separate staff should be employed to deal with the telephone exchange and it should be completely separate. Again, it should be impressed upon the staff of both post office and telephone exchange that secrecy is absolutely essential in regard to all messages. The Minister should take a very strong disciplinary stand on this matter of secrecy.

Furthermore, wherever possible there should be at least one public telephone kiosk in every village. I know professional and business men who have been inundated by requests from their clients and customers to use the telephone. It would be for the benefit of all, and particularly for the benefit of the Post Office, if we had a public telephone kiosk in every village and town in the country. As a last request I would appeal to the Minister to have a telephone installed as soon as possible in every sub-post office in the country. I understand that there are some 800 sub-offices in which there are no telephones and the sooner phones are connected there the better for the telephone service and for the public generally—Deputy Everett has told us that we have a two years' supply of materials.

Like Deputy O'Donnell, I do not propose to intervene at any great length in this discussion. Like him, I am presented in my constituency with the problem of the inhabited islands. Even an island which is close to the shore in Bantry Bay, Whiddy Island, suffers from tremendous irregularity in postal deliveries. That arises from many reasons and the Minister might consider the type of boat used for mail delivery because an improvement in the type of boat would obviate the difficulty. It would not be so difficult as heretofore because, as a result of the agitation which has been going on for facilities for the delivery of cream from the island to the mainland, it might be possible for the Minister, in collaboration with the Minister for Agriculture, to get a boat to brave weather conditions there—the gap to be bridged is a short one.

Like Deputy O'Donnell, I would appeal to the Minister to speed up the provision of telephones to sub-post offices, particularly in isolated rural districts such as abound in Deputy O'Donnell's constituency and mine. If it is not possible to have a separate installation and a separate staff, a portion of the post office premises should be reserved for people using the telephone so that they would not have to use it in a semi-public way. The telephone cannot be used in any other way in many post offices in rural areas.

Deputy O'Donnell urged the Minister to consider very seriously the fact that the lack of secrecy in the telephone system of the country is becoming alarming. It is amazing—I say this deliberately—that in the exercise of your duty as a public representative, no matter what message you endeavour to get through to your constituency there will always be leakages which can only be traced to one source, the Post Office itself. That not only occurs to Deputies of one Party, but to Deputies of all Parties. That should not be so, and I would urge upon the Minister the need for the enforcement of any regulations possible to ensure the secrecy and privacy to which the person using the telephone and paying for its use is entitled.

The Minister should review as quickly as possible the question of the routes and the times of postmen in the rural areas. I know of one extraordinary instance in my constituency where a postman operating in the Glengarriff area has lost his right to be considered permanent and pensionable by virtue of a 35 minutes' discrepancy in his times. This is a very old case. In these border-line cases I would ask the Minister in his new found office, in which we wish him well, to exercise sympathy and mercy and to make such a person permanent and pensionable.

There has been considerable agitation by people in the Ballylicky area where an effort is being made to get certain telephone installations. A levy by way of deposit that strikes me as being inordinately high is charged against these people. I have been in constant communication with the Minister's predecessor, and indeed in the last day or two I have raised the matter again with the Minister himself. Some method should be adopted to guarantee against loss which would not involve the necessity for an individual to deposit large sums, thus losing the benefit of the use of the money or interest upon it merely because he wishes to have certain facilities.

The Minister has a comparatively easy task because, no matter what slander or abuse his predecessor received, I think that he did a workmanlike job. As the representative of a rural constituency I feel that it would be unfair of me to let this opportunity pass without paying a small tribute to Deputy Everett for the way he got things done during his period of office. I was very pleased to hear him state— and I hope the position is so—that the Minister has two years' supply of equipment on hands. In the light of the present ominous situation, which changes from day to day, I would urge the Minister to make use of that equipment to develop communications in the rural districts so that never again will the needs of human beings in their extreme hour be unfulfilled because a telephone is not available in the area to call either for medical assistance or for the assistance of a priest.

These may seem small things, but they are very large to the people in the rural areas. They are facilities to which the people of rural Ireland are entitled. They should have priority and the Minister should give priority to this public type of service, this most necessary service in rural Ireland, rather than to the installation of private telephones for subscribers who seek them. I would urge upon the Minister in his present situation to speed up, if possible, the installation and development of rural telephonic communication. I want to conclude on this note that I hope the day of disputes with regard to appointments in the post offices or sub-post offices is gone, and that the Minister will continue to allow the committee or selection board of the senior personnel of his own Department to make the recommendations as to who should be appointed in any case, and, having got that recommendation, that he will implement it irrespective of class, creed or politics.

I promise that I shall keep the Minister only two minutes to refer to a local matter to which I expect he will not be able to reply in the course of his speech tonight. It is something which affects a number of workers down in Wexford town. I would like it to be taken up immediately and perhaps the Minister would let me know, in the course of a few days, what the position is and if something can be done in connection with the workers attached to the engineering section of the General Post Office in Wexford town. About two weeks ago nine of these workers were assigned to a place called Ardee in County Louth. I think it is daft that nine men attached to the engineering section of the Post Office should be sent to work approximately 130 miles away and I think Deputy Walsh will agree with me.

The workers in Deputy Walsh's constituency are not very favourable towards nine Wexford men going up to County Louth to work for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

That was two weeks ago.

I am not making any crib about that. I am not trying to make a smart speech nor am I interested in who was Minister at that particular time. I wonder if it is wise policy for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to have nine workers assigned to a town 130 miles away. I appreciate it is not always possible to have the work localised in Wexford town or centred around Wexford but I think at least they could be kept in the county or in that postal area. If work shifts up the line, the workers in Arklow could be sent to Wicklow, those in Wicklow to Bray and workers from South County Louth or North County Dublin could be assigned to Louth. It is very hard on these workers; six of them have families and it is tough on these families to have their breadwinner domiciled in a place 130 miles away.

You are not blaming the present Minister?

I am not blaming the present Minister. I appreciate this could happen under the present Minister's régime. A Minister cannot have his finger on every single section of the Department. Deputy Childers could not, any more than Deputy Everett, keep in close contact with every single thing that goes on in the Department especially as far as the employment of men is concerned. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to have that situation examined immediately with a view to seeing if these nine workers could be given employment nearer to their own town in Wexford.

With regard to a remark Deputy Killilea passed in the discussion on Baltinglass in connection with my employment in private life outside this House, I challenge Deputy Killilea to raise that particular question when the Minister for Local Government comes into the House.

In reply to the many observations made by Deputies, I want, first of all, in a general way, to say that I will have all the questions they have raised, where they are of interest or where they throw some light on administration, examined with a view to seeing where some improvements could be made.

I now propose to deal with the details mentioned by Deputies. Deputy MacBride spoke of the question of communication with islands. Deputy O'Donnell also referred to this point. As I said in the course of my speech on the Estimate, we are doing all we can to improve the radio communication with islands. A sum has been provided in the Estimate—£7,000 I think— with that end in view. All islands with a population of 100 or more have some sort of telephonic communication, either by radio or otherwise, and it is the object of the Department to improve that service as time goes on.

Deputy MacBride and other Deputies too have asked me whether I had any intention of restricting the expansion of the telephone service. So far as I can foresee, and that is not very far at the present time, we have every intention to continue expanding the telephone service and to continue expanding and improving the postal services throughout the country.

Deputy MacBride also referred to the shortage of staff that he was aware existed. I think I ought to take this opportunity of appealing to the young people of the country to consider becoming electrical engineers. Employment is assured for them in the postal service of this country where vacancies await them. At the present time all electrical engineers who come forth from the universities are absorbed by the Post Office. In fact, insufficient numbers are available. The rates of pay are satisfactory and compare favourably with those of other State boards. I would, therefore, appeal to universities to consider whether they are doing enough to attract young people to this particular service. As I have already said, the Department is able to absorb all the suitable persons who are trained as electrical engineers and who offer themselves for employment. There is a bottleneck in telephone development arising from the shortage of staff. Some people are attracted abroad, possibly by higher inducements, a love of adventure or other considerations, but they are needed in this country.

The previous Minister tended to emphasise the construction of new exchange lines, the placing of telephones in dwellings of private individuals, in businesses and so forth. As a result, there are already arrears of maintenance work, and further planning must be done. We must get more electrical engineers if all this work is to go ahead. Deputies will be of great assistance to the Department if they will do all they can to encourage young men who are not quite sure what type of career they will take up, and who have some mechanical aptitude, to consider electrical engineering. It is a very safe career and there are enormous opportunities for employment abroad in case there should be any lack of employment here. I would like to put it the other way around—we can assure them of good employment in the Post Office, that is, those qualified sufficiently for the various grades. The Department has actually sent persons to give lectures in University College in order to attract people to this particular service. These lectures have had some effect. Every step has been taken to avoid, so to speak, bidding for such engineers as become available by State boards in competition with each other. We are doing everything possible to avoid such competition, so that each State board can get its particular proportion of engineers.

Deputy McGilligan referred to one sentence in my statement in which I suggested that the award of higher remuneration to the postal staff was still a matter for consideration. I only used the words "if granted" in that connection because any proposals put forward by the staff side to the Conciliation Council in the Post Office which had not yet been decided must be decided in some way or other. I was using the term "if granted" in a purely technical sense, having regard to the decision made and to the date upon which the award was decided. I think this is quite clear to the House.

Deputy Cafferky, Deputy Kyne, Deputy Desmond and a number of other Deputies referred to the position of auxiliary postmen. I agree with Deputies who feel that their work is, in some cases, exacting, and their wages more than modest. In common with my predecessors, I will do all I can to see that their position is safeguarded and, if possible, improved. The number of full-time temporary postmen, in relation to the number of partly-employed temporary postmen, is not so unsatisfactory as may be imagined. Some auxiliary postmen have other sources of employment, which makes the position easier for them. Others are not so successful in that regard. I am glad to say that their modest wages were very considerably increased during the time of our Government and since 1939—and they have increased since that date under the Minister who held office before me, though their wages are still very modest. I think that everything that can be done for them should be done for them. I have not been in this position long enough to know what the general state of affairs is. I cannot say anything more than that. It would be very unwise of me to make foolish promises which I should be unable to implement. Wages went up between 1939 and 1948 by anything from 70 to 80 per cent., and the wage which was achieved still was not anything remarkable in the way of a wage. Wages have increased since that date by a small amount—obviously not the same amount, but by a certain amount.

Deputy Cafferky referred to the delays in connection with telephone calls from Claremorris and district. In the course of my opening speech I indicated that there would be inevitable delays until we increase the number of circuits and trunk lines. I indicated that, if anything, during the past three years the emphasis has been upon an increase in the number of exchange lines and stations or individual telephone points as compared with the number of trunk lines. As a result, there are still arrears in the work of providing sufficient trunk lines, minor trunk lines and circuits in order to deal with the increased number of telephone calls.

Deputy Cafferky suggested there was some discourtesy shown by certain telephone officials. Any discourtesy should be investigated. A great number of people serving in sub-post offices are, on the contrary, extraordinarily polite and give a kind of informal assistance to subscribers in the area which is altogether beyond what is expected of them in a very large number of instances of which I am personally aware. While there are bound to be variations in the conduct of persons of their kind, as in the conduct of all other persons, I should like to have any suggestion of discourtesy reported. As I know it, the tradition of the Department has been one of courtesy and kindness and thought for other people.

Deputy Cafferky made various suggestions in regard to the order in which telephones were attached to the system. We have a priority list which includes people who have public duties to perform, and the priority list is followed as far as circumstances permit. Over and above that, we try to reduce the time and expense involved in the creation of new exchange lines by dealing with all the applications from a particular area at once and trying to complete them. Inevitably, there are departures from that plan and it does not work perfectly but, as far as possible, the group plan is carried out to a fair degree.

Deputy Cafferky referred to places where the sub-postmasters have no half-holiday. The practice is for the sub-post office to close when there is a half-day in the area. If there is any exception to that practice, we should like to hear of it and see if we can remedy the situation.

A number of Deputies referred to the importance of establishing telephone call-offices in the country. Some of them must have omitted to hear that part of my opening statement in which I said that 150 call-offices had been established since 1950; that 700 were left to be established and that, of those, 137 were in progress this year. That shows progress of a reasonable kind.

Deputy Kyne spoke of the necessity for more stamp machines. I have already indicated that these are on order and are being established wherever required. We shall do all we can in regard to the establishment of telephone kiosks. The actual charge, consequent upon the erection of telephone kiosks, is rather heavy. I have been informed by the officers of my Department that it is as much as £35 a year. They must be placed in areas where they will have some chance of paying their way. I am always prepared to consider special exceptions. One Deputy referred to the possible early closing of Garda stations. That is a matter which should receive consideration. I cannot promise anything but if an area is completely isolated from telephonic communication at night, and persons who want to make urgent calls for medical assistance or religious aid, or something of that kind, cannot do so because no telephone is available, we would have to reconsider that matter. I can hardly believe, however, that there are many areas of that kind in question.

Deputy Cafferky suggested that assistants to sub-postmasters are badly paid. It is established that sub-postmasters will pay wages applicable to comparable forms of employment in the area. If the Deputy knows of any case where there is no family connection, and somebody is clearly underpaid, the matter should be brought to the attention of the Department.

Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy S. Collins referred to the absence of secrecy in the postal service. I trust that Deputy Collins was exaggerating. I think that examples of failure to observe secrecy should be given. In some remote areas, where there are hardly any secrets of any kind, it is very difficult for people not to imagine that maybe a secret was given away by a postal official when, in fact, it was repeated in the nearest pub. It is extremely difficult to secure evidence of that kind. There is no clear evidence that there is an absence of secrecy in the Post Office.

Deputy Desmond made one of the most useful and original suggestions in the course of this debate. He suggested that during the tourist season in holiday resorts there might be a temporary alteration in the hours during which the telephone service operates. I think that that was an excellent suggestion which will have the immediate attention of the Department. It was novel of its kind and it deserves sympathetic attention. He also suggested that some of these telephone exchanges might remain open on Sundays during the holiday period. That might be difficult to arrange but we will at least examine the question of changing, temporarily, the hours of operation of the telephone exchange in the months when we can expect a large number of holiday-makers both from our own country and from abroad.

Deputy O'Hara and other Deputies referred to the delays in the installation of trunk lines, call-office and subscriber services in the West and North-West country generally.

I am informed that steps have been taken to catch up on the arrears in those areas by transferring the engineering gangs from other areas into the areas of the West and North-West. I cannot foretell what the effect of that will be in this financial year, but I understand that we are going to try and catch up on the arrears in respect of various types of equipment in the near future in the West.

Deputy Everett made the suggestion that there were no plans in regard to telephone installations when he became Minister. It depends on what you call a plan. A certain general outline of work to be done had been prepared and a great deal of the equipment had been ordered. I am informed that 6,025 subscribers' lines were established in 1948. In connection with those lines of telephones, most of them certainly must have been ordered in 1947. I think the House will accept it as being inevitably true—I cannot say of all of them—that a great part of them were ordered in 1947. Great progress has been made in recent years. One of the interesting things about the telephone service is the progress that was made during impossible and difficult times, even during the war. I was amazed to find that in 1939 there were 26,986 subscribers' lines, and that in the years of the armistice in 1945, there were 33,417. Where the telephones and cables came from I do not know, not having been Minister at that time. I think it was a remarkable piece of work during the emergency. The number of telephones then increased from 1945, when there were some 33,000, while by the end of 1948 there were 42,000 subscribers. I think that credit for a great deal of that was due to the previous Government. Equally, there is credit due to the Minister who held office before me for the fact that since 1948 the number has gone up again by some 10,000. Great credit is also due for this to a zealous staff and to the work done by the officers of the Department. One has only to read the report of what was done, both in planning, before 1948, and in work done during the war in difficult circumstances, and in the work done from 1948, to know that there is in the Department a very highly efficient staff of which we should be proud.

I should like to give Deputies the number of temporary postmen—and grade B delivery postmen—at the present time. It is approximately 2,300. The number of auxiliary postmen and allowance deliverers is 3,200. The ratio to men who have full-time work is not so unsatisfactory as might have been thought. I thought myself that the figure of auxiliary postmen was rather large. I quite agree that to increase the number of men who could get a whole week's work is not, necessarily, possible, because of the technical considerations involved.

Deputy Cogan asked that I should say something in regard to the methods by which sub-postmasters are now appointed. The previous Minister agreed to, and appointed, a selection board consisting of two assistant secretaries, the principal officers in charge of the establishment in telephone branches and the chief inspector of services. This board, from the time the Minister made the appointment—the 2nd January—has been appointing sub-postmasters, and there has been no interference by the Minister in the appointments. Political patronage has been discouraged in that connection. It is provided that: "the board shall disqualify for the said positions any candidate who uses, or attempts to use, political influence for the furtherance of his candidature for any of the said positions". It is not my intention to alter the system which has been put into operation by the previous Minister. I should add that, legally speaking, the Minister must make all appointments himself, and he must ultimately take full responsibility for the character of those appointed. There is no escape from that obligation on his part, and I hope that this new system will work and succeed.

Do you not approve of this new system?

I have approved of it, and I have said that I hope it will succeed. It is to be regarded as an experiment which we hope will succeed. I have no intention of altering the plan made by the previous Minister in that regard.

It is not my intention to say anything more in regard to the Baltinglass case or to speak of it in detail.

Would you like to speak about Carndonagh?

Nor is it my intention to deal in detail with the observations of the previous Minister. I do not intend either to say anything in regard to previous cases of which the former Minister gave alleged facts and details. The public are well aware of the history of the Baltinglass case. They are well aware of the fact that public opinion revealed overwhelming support for the person who was finally appointed. Public opinion revealed itself in a manner which had no connection with the alleged machinations of any societies or of persons of any particular faith or religion. In fact, so far as public opinion revealed itself, it was represented in the proportions of all the faiths of this country as far as one could see. It was fairly representative of all faiths. As I have said, in so far as there was an expression of public opinion, it was unique in the history of postal appointments. Even if everything the previous Minister said about certain other appointments were true, there never was that expression of public opinion which took place in connection with Baltinglass. As I have said, and I want to speak quite frankly about it, that public opinion was expressed by people who were in proportion to persons of all faiths, creeds and classes in this country. There was no special emphasis on the part of persons of any one faith or one creed or one allegiance.

It was financed by Fianna Fáil.

I regard a great deal of what the previous Minister said——

A statement has been made which is absolutely untrue. The Baltinglass protest was not financed by Fianna Fáil. It was financed by the local people of Baltinglass and by public subscription.

I am trying to confine my remarks without going into detail. It is time the whole matter closed. We hope that there will be no further recurrence of that kind. I have represented the people of Longford for many years, and I have never heard observations of the kind he made at all among my friends of that constituency nor have I heard them made in Wicklow. I do not think they do any good to this country. I want to say that. In conclusion, I did not follow the previous Minister's argument altogether. I do not want to say anything to detract from the work of the previous Minister. It is quite evident from reading the report of the work done that there has generally been great progress. I wish to refer to the work of the Department rather than to help reopen the debate on this subject.

It is hardly fair to say that the ex-Minister opened it.

Vote put and agreed to.
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