Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1951

Vol. 126 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £4,292,380 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1952, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government.

The total net amount required in the Vote for the Department of Local Government for the current financial year is £6,688,380. The total net amount for the last financial year was £4,382,160, but as the Estimate for the current year includes unexpended balances from other Votes now transferred to this Vote, the actual comparable figure for 1950-51 should be increased by £2,000,000 in respect of the former Vote for Transition Development Fund and by £240,000 from Vote 10, being the amount provided in the Employment and Emergency Schemes Vote in respect of sanitary services schemes. After making these transfers, comparison of the provision for 1951-52 with that made for 1950-51 shows a net increase of £66,220 in respect of the Department's Vote as a whole.

The Transition Development Fund was instituted after the emergency to ensure that post-emergency schemes could proceed with expedition notwithstanding the heavy and erratic increases in costs of labour and materials which had been brought about by international conditions and which were likely to persist for some considerable time after hostilities had ceased in Europe and elsewhere. The fund has been utilised, so far as the Department of Local Government is concerned, for supplementing the normal pre-1939 rates of subsidy towards loan charges on housing schemes. It was also drawn on to supplement the grants which were allocated from the Employment and Emergency Schemes Vote towards waterworks and sewerage schemes. Early in 1950 it was decided to terminate the grants from the Transition Development Fund before the end of the financial year 1950-51 and, accordingly, no grants from the fund have been allocated towards schemes sanctioned after the 1st November, 1950. The Estimates which I am introducing make provision for the continuance of a proportion of the balance of the Transition Development Fund and employment and emergency schemes grants applicable to schemes sanctioned before the 1st November, 1950, to the extent to which payments therefrom are likely to be made in the current year.

As far as sanitary services schemes are concerned, the local authorities have already been informed that subsidy in future will be dealt with on the basis of contributions to loan charges corresponding in extent to the assistance hitherto given by way of grant.

In the case of housing, the fixing of alternative subsidisable limits for the purpose of recoupment of a proportion of the loan charges in respect of houses and flats of the type hitherto ranking for Transition Development Fund grants, is at present under consideration.

During the financial year ended 31st March last the number of houses and flats completed by local authorities was 7,787 and there were 10,222 dwellings in course of construction at the same date. Since then, further large schemes have been commenced by the Dublin and Cork Corporations and by the Carlow Urban District Council. In addition, sites have been acquired by local authorities for about a further 14,000 houses and plans for the development of a number of these sites are already well under way.

Deputies will be aware that there has recently been a retarding of the Dublin Corporation's housing programme owing to a cement shortage and certain difficulties in regard to the working of overtime. It is my earnest hope that these difficulties will be overcome and that a steady output of dwellings may be maintained.

The post-war housing needs of the working classes were estimated to be 69,908 dwellings as at 31st March, 1947. Since then 15,686 dwellings were provided up to the 1st April last.

Up-to-date housing surveys are necessary to ascertain the present position in each area. Arrangements are being made to have these surveys carried out and also for the compilation of information on progress in each area since 1947, the rate of commencements, and the numbers of sites being acquired, planned and developed.

Of the 69,908 dwellings estimated at the 31st March, 1947, to be required to be provided by local authorities the needs of Dublin City accounted for approximately 30,000. Between March, 1947, and March, 1951, the corporation completed 5,490 houses and flats and on the latter date had 3,205 dwellings in course of construction, while sites were held for a further 5,063 dwellings.

An increasing number of local authorities have been introducing systems of graded and differential rents. I am aware of the objections in individual cases which may arise. It is quite possible that the application of the system may create temporary injustices, but these matters are open to review by the local authorities concerned, according as difficulties arise in the several local areas.

The administration of the schemes of grants in aid of private enterprise housing has, I am glad to learn, been proceeding with increasing efficiency. About 4,331 new houses were erected in 1950-51 with the aid of grants, while 2,045 were reconstructed. Staffing and other administrative difficulties gave rise to complaints of delay in dealing with individual cases in the period immediately following the enactment of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948. I am informed that these difficulties have now been largely surmounted and that grants generally are being issued with commendable promptitude. The amount provided for under this head for the current year is £1,700,000 as compared with £1,635,000 in the last financial year. The latter provision was disbursed practically in full and it is anticipated that a similar rate of payments will be maintained this year.

Road administration claims the attention of many Deputies in every discussion on this Estimate. Road expenditure is largely concentrated in rural areas so that, apart from its primary purpose of maintaining our general road system in a fit condition to bear modern road transport, it has also a very great influence on the disposition of the wholetime or part-time employment of a large number of rural workers. It represents the greatest single item of revenue expenditure by county councils. Although the main source from which State grants are made towards road expenditure does not appear in the Department's Estimate, it is relevant to both departmental and local administration to survey the position affecting the Road Fund income and the contributions of local authorities towards road expenditure.

The Road Fund grants for 1951-52 are the same as for the preceding year. They consist of a 100 per cent. county road improvement grant amounting to £1,200,000, 100 per cent. main road improvement grant of £600,000 and a main road upkeep grant of 40 per cent. of approved expenditure. It is estimated that the total allocations will amount to over £2,400,000. This represents approximately half the total expenditure of county councils on roads. A further grant is under consideration to assist county councils in stock-piling a portion of next year's needs of tar and bituminous materials. The county engineers have also been advised to concentrate on surface dressing work so as to use as much tar and bitumen as they can obtain, in carrying out this year's programme.

Not only the main roads but the county roads are becoming more and more in need of transformation to take motor traffic, which is rapidly replacing horse traffic all over the country. There are about 40,000 miles of county roads, most of which are unrolled. It takes approximately £2,000 a mile to improve a typical county road up to modern needs. At the same time, the hazards of main road traffic on dangerous alignments or ill-kept surfaces cannot be overlooked. The problems which we have to solve and the programmes which we have to undertake are, therefore, necessarily complex and long term. They must be fitted as best we can into the general problem of State finances and national economy.

Deputies will have visible evidence of the progress of a much-needed scheme of street improvements in Dublin and Dún Laoghaire. Grants have also been given to the other three county boroughs for the resurfacing of badly deteriorated streets.

Road Fund income from motor licence duties amounted to £2,814,000 in 1950-51, as compared with £2,552,000 in the preceding year. The number of vehicles of all classes under current licence in August, 1950, showed a total increase of 15,598 on the corresponding date in 1949. The greatest increase in any class was in that of private cars. I hope to keep fresh borrowing on the security of the Road Fund to a minimum during 1951-52, particularly in view of the prospect of repayment commencing in March, 1952, in respect of the amounts borrowed since 1948. The amount to be repaid to central funds next March is expected to be over £200,000. This liability added to administrative charges, £100,000, will reduce the available Road Fund income to about the equivalent of the allocations to county councils for works in the year, after making allowance also for the contribution of £300,000 to the aid of general taxation for which provision was made in the Budget.

As regards the schemes financed by State grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949, £1,250,000 was provided for this service in 1949-50. In the following year the Vote provision was £1,750,000, while this year it is £1,220,000. This expenditure is classified in the Book of Estimates as a capital service proper to be met from borrowing. The works to be approved for execution by the aid of grants will, therefore, be expected to be of lasting value.

The fuel position came up for review at the beginning of 1951, and it was decided to ask local authorities to produce a quantity of turf which was calculated to work out at about 300,000 tons, representing three years' supply of the local authorities' own requirements. A later estimate put that figure at 540,000 tons. It was not considered possible that this latter figure could be attained this year even with an all-out drive under the most favourable conditions. The targets to be fixed are within the discretion of the several county councils concerned and these indicate that the amount which will actually be produced in 1951 will be approximately 180,000 tons. A considerable amount of bog development work was done from 1941 to 1947. This work will be restarted now, and grants are being made available for the purpose up to a sum of about £70,000, of which £40,000 is being met from the Vote for special employment schemes and the balance from grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949.

The results attained by some county councils in connection with hand-won turf production in 1951 suggest the need in certain areas for machine production of turf in 1952 and subsequent years. A number of county council have agreed to the purchase of semiautomatic turf producing machinery. Each of the machines has an output of 700 to 800 tons per season. The turf produced by Bord na Móna with the use of these machines is of first-class quality and superior to the hand-won production, particularly in areas where there is not available labour skilled traditionally in hand-winning methods. Machine-won turf has always been an acceptable fuel, and even if coal were to become freely available at normal prices machine-won turf would probably hold its own, and is acceptable to the managements of various local institutions as well as for other local authority purposes.

I have already indicated the new financial arrangements which will apply to the subsidy of loans raised for sanitary services works. The provision of waterworks and sewerage schemes continued during 1950/51 at an accelerated rate. The total of loans sanctioned for these works in 1950/51 was £718,251 as compared with £609,669 in the preceding year and £497,386 in the 1948/49 period. At the 31st March last 51 water and 31 sewerage schemes were in progress at an estimated total cost of £1,556,000. It is expected that the level of activity reached at the end of last year will be maintained and probably increased in the present year.

Tenders have been approved for two out of the three sections of the North Dublin Regional Water Supply. The planning of the Howth Outfall Sewerage Scheme which will drain large areas to the north of Dublin City is proceeding and arrangements have already been made for the laying of pipes to deal with the area between Finglas and Raheny which is scheduled for early development.

General progress with sanitary services schemes would have been even more satisfactory save that the supply position regarding materials remains difficult. There is a delay of from six months to two years in the delivery of water mains, fittings, pumping and filtration plant. Mechanical equipment for sewerage schemes is subject to similar delays.

A provision of £1,400 is made in the Estimates in connection with the revision and codification of Local Government law. Considerable progress has aleady been made. Detailed proposals for both a Revision Bill and a Codification Bill dealing with sanitary services, fairs and markets, burial grounds, etc., have been prepared. Substantial progress has also been made in the proposals for the revision and consolidation of the law relating to the constitution and general powers of the local authorities.

A measure of co-ordination on town planning and allied problems has been effected within the Department so that the town planning section is now responsible for bye-laws relating to new buildings, extensions of borough boundaries and acquisition of land by local authorities for all purposes. Town planning schemes are in course of preparation in 48 of the 60 urban areas and 19 of the 27 county health districts. The main concentration practically everywhere is, however, on interim control. The number of appeals submitted to the Minister during the year was 214 as compared with 226 in the previous year. In a large number of cases it was possible to secure agreement between the appellants and the planning authority and a formal decision was not required.

The administration of the Combined Purchasing Act reflects the existing unsettled trade conditions. The prices quoted for most commodities, both home and foreign manufactured, were higher than last year's prices. Applications for permission to increase contract prices were received from 841 firms in 1950-51 as compared with 277 in 1949-50.

A general tendency towards increased costs of supplies and services is reflected in corresponding increases in the rates struck by most county councils for the current year. While a large percentage of the increase may be attributable to expanding programmes in respect of health, roads, housing and sanitary services, even under these heads the increase is also partly attributable to increases in the costs of commodities and labour. So far as the share of the ratepayers in the liability for increased commitments is concerned they have been relieved very considerably by a very large increase in State subsidies. In 1950-51 the total amount of the State grant to all local authorities amounted to £15,000,000 as compared with an estimated contribution of £11,000,000 from rates. The agricultural grant which, since the enactment of the Local Government (Relief of Rates on Agricultural Land) Act, 1946, increases automatically with an increase in rates, considerably alleviates the burden on farmers. The amount of the grant for 1950-51 was £3,934,421. The state of the rate collection was generally satisfactory at the end of the financial year.

One of the functions of the Library Council is to assist local authorities to improve their library services. In addition to the maximum State contribution of £2,500 towards the expenses of the Library Council, a token provision of £5 has been made in the Department's Estimates for the present year to enable the council to provide for financial aid arising out of the results of a survey which it is proposed to institute of existing library services. The Library Council has appointed two surveyors to undertake the survey immediately. A token provision only is being made as expenditure will not arise in this connection until the results of the survey are available.

I am sure that Deputies will wish to ask me a number of questions on the matters to which I have referred in this statement. I want to assure them that I have tried to make myself as conversant as possible with the subjects dealt with, but in all probability I will be unable to give them the detailed information which they will wish to get. If I am unable to do so now, I promise that information on any points to which I am unable to refer will be sent to the Deputies if it is available.

Mr. Keyes

My only comment on the Estimate just announced by the Minister is to compliment him on his translation to a Department which, while it has played a prominent part in the life of our people at all times, has in recent years taken on additional importance, being, in conjunction with the local authorities, the hub of the national revolution which has taken place, the peaceful and, thanks be to God, non-political one of the housing of our people, the translation of our people from the slums, cabins and hovels in which they were condemned to live for so long. This heavy responsibility has been cheerfully undertaken and I am glad to note that, with the co-operation of the local authorities under the guidance of the Department of Local Government, the work goes on apace. It cannot go on too steadily for this House and the people of the country. It is a magnificent thing to pass through the country and see the beautiful houses which have sprung up, mushroom-like, to replace the old mud cabins and hovels in rural and urban areas. These houses, together with the water and sewerage schemes undertaken in conjunction with the housing schemes, plus the sanitary schemes in areas left unserviced for too many years, have not alone improved the health, life and comfort of our people, but also have given magnificent employment to our workers at good rates at a type of work than which I consider none better.

These are all heavy responsibilities weighing on the Department of Local Government because if there were to be any flagging at this particular juncture, I think it would be disastrous. We have embarked upon a scheme and aroused the enthusiasm of all who are concerned with it, and responsibility falls on the Department of Local Government to maintain that flame, and by their energy and devotion to duty to encourage the local authorities to continue that grand work. I commend that work to the Minister, and I am quite sure that when he examines the various sections of the Department he will be impressed by their efficiency.

I wish to pay a tribute to each and every member of the staff in the Custom House, whether engaged on town planning, water sewerage, housing, Local Authorities (Works) Act or other schemes. I never found a more devoted, loyal and able staff than the Minister will find at his disposal there, and I am sure that when he has experience of the Department he will be able to bear out my words.

I wish him God speed in the work he has undertaken, and I suggest to him not to let anything from any other channel whatsoever hamper his efforts. I admit that we all have had our difficulties with the Department of Finance. I would encourage the Minister not to be deterred because of the enormity of the work he has engaged upon. As I have said, it would be disastrous if anything were to happen which would break the continuity of the work that is taking place. The men have been recruited, the materials mobilised, and the only hope, to my mind, for eventual and speedy success is to keep that work going by the preparation of schemes in advance to ensure that people can be transferred from one housing scheme to another where sites have already been secured. There should be a 12 months' programme planned in advance.

In addition to having been desired by everybody in the country, the work should be a means of rescuing, as soon as possible, our people from their present tenements. It will also provide a magnificent amount of employment, particularly in rural areas where it is so badly needed. The Local Authorities (Works) Act, which has been framed to provide employment for the rural workers, will also enable them to get houses built for themselves, so that they can live in their natural environment. That is an important section of the work.

The turf-cutting programme, which is under the control of the Department, should also contribute to the grand programme of employment and housebuilding of which the Minister ought to be very proud.

The water-sewerage scheme is going ahead at an increased tempo such as never occurred before. Any money that is put into that development is money well spent. It is an investment in the health of our people and in their future happiness.

I want to pay a tribute to the members of this House of all Parties and to all staffs for the co-operation they gave to me during the couple of years I was in the Department of Local Government. As Opposition Deputy, I now extend that same co-operation to the Minister in so far as it is possible for me to assist him. I trust that in 1951 he will ruthlessly smash the record I made in 1950 and lay such plans or schemes in advance that 1952 will again beat 1951, so that by our combined efforts, we may succeed in winning through to the day when nobody in this country will want for a decent house to live in. That is the aim we are all aspiring to and in that desire I commend the Minister to redouble his efforts, smash all records and go on with the work. I wish him God speed.

Mr. Dunne

The ex-Minister for Local Government is a kindly man. That is a fact which is acknowledged by all members of all Parties in this House. He is a man who gave tremendous service to the people of this country when he held the high office which is now held by Deputy Patrick Smith.

I acknowledge that a week is a very short time to hold a public office so weighty as the Ministry of Local Government, and it would be impossible for any man unfamiliar with the ramifications of such a Department to embrace in that time the various aspects of the work which it must necessarily have and to be able to give as comprehensive a statement as might be desired. However, there are some points that emerge from the Minister's statement which, to me at any rate, require some clarification. I am more than disappointed that the new Minister for Local Government has done nothing more, on this occasion, than tell us what has been achieved by his predecessor in office. He does not tell us how he proposes solving the many pressing and urgent problems that face this country.

Let me take the mind of the Minister and the minds of the Government Deputies back a little—to two years ago—when it was found necessary by the late Mr. Tim Murphy—God be good to him—who was then Minister for Local Government, to reduce the road grants. There was an outcry from the present Government and from those associated with them and from the Fianna Fáil Organisation from one end of the country to the other. The road grants were being cut, thousands were going to be unemployed, and it was all laid at the door of two Labour Deputies, principally myself. In the event, the reverse happened.

I am disappointed that we have heard nothing about proposed future increases of the road grants, that we have heard nothing about the restoration of the road grants which were talked about here so loudly and so long and also at every chapel gate and crossroads in Ireland two years ago. I am disappointed and I am sure the Fianna Fáil Organisation is disappointed. Even Deputy Paddy Burke, of my own constituency, availed of that particular hobby horse to his personal political advantage on as many occasions as he could. What of the road grants now that the power is vested temporarily, and for a very short period, in the Fianna Fáil Organisation and Party? What is going to be done about them? Are we going to have them restored to their former proportions? It is important that we should know whether those speeches which were made during the lifetime of the inter-Party Government—during the period when Labour had a share in the reins of office—were, in fact, seriously meant at all, because some of us doubt it.

The road grants have an important bearing on the question of unemployment. I was very glad to hear the commendatory reference to the employment details in the Minister's statement and also the reference to the Local Authorities (Works) Act as a method of improving the country through providing employment in rural areas. Let us take our minds back a little and recall that the Minister and those associated with him voted no less than eight times against that Act in this House. They employed every device and every artifice that they could employ to try to obstruct its passage. Now reason has dawned, apparently, or, perhaps, it is just the change of position from one side of the House to the other. Whatever it may be, there is a different national attitude now to the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

We stated, when that Act was being introduced, that it was one of the most beneficial and constructive and progressive proposals ever introduced in this House. I recall very well that when Deputy Allen and other Deputies of the present Government Party were on these benches, they did all in their power to hold up the passage of that Bill. They kept us here until the light burned low at night telling us how grievous a wrong was being done to the Irish people and to the farmer whose land would be trespassed upon by the introduction of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. What is going to happen to that Act now? Will it be repudiated? Is it going to be operated on the same scale and on the same lines as it has been operated by the ex-Minister and by his predecessor? Is it going to be operated along lines which will mean, as it has meant in the past three years, continuous employment in rural areas on a scale such as never existed before? County Meath is a county which has returned two Fianna Fáil Deputies to this House. The workers of County Meath will be interested to know whether, this year and in the future, the record of 100 per cent. employment, which was created there in the past two years by the ex-Minister for Local Government, will be maintained by the present Minister and by the Fianna Fáil Party.

It is disappointing that we have not heard what proposals there are for the future. The Minister has told us what has happened in the past three years and what plans were made by the ex-Minister for the coming 12 months. But we have heard nothing at all about Fianna Fáil policy—not one word. We have not heard a word about what is going to be done by the new broom that was going to sweep so clean, before it achieved office. We will be interested to hear, before this debate is over, what is going to be done. Last year, in County Meath, grants to the amount of £95,000 were made available under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. Some 1,400 or 1,500 rural workers were kept in continuous employment for the first time in the history of this country in County Meath by virtue of that Act. That Act was voted against solidly by the present Government, then the Fianna Fáil opposition.

They walked into these lobbies and they tried, by every means in their power, to block the passage of that Bill through the House.

The various matters which arise on this particular Estimate are of tremendous urgency and importance. Apart from the Department of Agriculture, I think it will be agreed by everybody in public life in this country that the Department which reaches nearest to the everyday lives of the ordinary people is the Department of Local Government. The Estimate for this Department deserves very serious consideration and every aspect of the administration of the Department should be examined. In the past it has been the practice of Fianna Fáil Deputies to pay particular attention to this Estimate. Many of them have done so with the experience behind them that some of us have, and that the Minister has, of local authority administration and in the knowledge of the tremendous importance of this Department. In the light of its importance, I should have thought that a picture would have been presented by the Minister on this opportunity which he has been given of what the Fianna Fáil Government propose to do in respect of local authority administration.

Take the matter of housing. The Minister has acknowledged the progress that has been made in housing. In all honesty, can it be said that in the past three years one word of appreciation of the work being done by the ex-Minister for Local Government and his predecessor emanated from the mouths of the gentlemen who are now in government and who were then in opposition? Did one word of credit emanate or was one compliment paid or one statement of fact made in relation to the tremendous work which was done in that Department by the ex-Minister for Local Government and his predecessor? On the contrary, was every opportunity not seized upon— even if it were only a meeting of a racing pigeon club to which the local Deputy was invited to say a few words —to try to make people believe that the housing drive was not going on so well because Fianna Fáil was not in office? No matter what the occasion, the moan and the groan and the caoin were raised despite the fact that; during that time, we were experiencing the most tremendous housing drive ever known in this country. Since the end of the war, 16,000 houses have been built. Can anybody deny that?

Can anybody deny that building started only with the advent of the inter-Party Government? I do not say for one moment that it was not the desire of the former Minister for Local Government, who held office prior to 1948, to provide houses for people. But the impetus, the energy and the drive did not come until we had the late Deputy Tim Murphy and, following him, Deputy Michael Keyes as Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Gallagher

Did we not inherit a legacy of bad housing from the Cumann na nGaedheal Government?

Mr. Dunne

You can have your say later. You can tell us about Cabra and about Dublin. I am talking about the national housing drive which was carried out by the ex-Minister and by his predecessor. I am talking about the efforts that were made to decry that drive and to endeavour to prove that there was no housing drive. These efforts were made by gentlemen who now stand up and say: "Here are the facts. We made great progress"— and they omit to tell us what they propose to do in the future.

If we are to be charitable—a thing which, of course, politicians are not wont to be—but if we are to be charitable and to judge the Fianna Fáil Party by its past performances, I pity my constituents in County Dublin and I pity Deputy Burke's constituents too.

Mr. Davin

Himself, in particular.

Mr. Dunne

I pity them for this reason, and it cannot be denied. I have stated it in this House on many occasions and, at the risk of being repetitive, I shall state it now again. The houses which were built in the past two and a half years in County Dublin represent a very big advance in construction, quality, size and situation on what went before. Is that policy of giving better houses and larger houses to working-class people going to be maintained? It would be interesting to have that information because, in the lifetime of the Fianna Fáil Government—14 years ago—houses were built in County Dublin which were not fit for animals to live in and which could be condemned now and knocked down. Deputy Burke, as one who knows, will bear that statement out. I have in mind the houses at Turnapin. You could push them down with your hand.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Estimate. We can go back only a year.

Mr. Dunne

I am inquiring whether it is the policy of the present Minister, and the Party behind him, to give us houses of a quality which working-class people, who are seeking houses, will be satisfied with. I am inquiring whether it will be the Minister's policy to ensure that the houses that are built will be houses which will not fall down in 14 years' time. I am inquiring what proposals there are, if any, or what ideas the Minister may have. He may have some very progressive and constructive ideas—but, so far, he has not revealed them—on the very vexed and urgent question of the cost of housing to local authorities. This question has so many ramifications and facets that it can be considered in many ways. I propose to consider it in one respect only, namely, the way in which it affects the ordinary people. It has been found that the cost of the houses built during the last couple of years by local authorities has been three and four times what it was in pre-war years. Take the case of the average worker in the County Dublin who applied for and eventually became tenant of a county council house. Owing to the comparatively low figure for building costs in 1937 and 1938, the rent he was charged for a house in these years was from 4/- to 6/- a week. Houses now being built by the Dublin County Council are costing £1,200 or £1,500 or £1,600. That is for serviced houses. I am sure that example can be paralleled in almost every county.

Repayment in respect of those houses must be found in two or possibly three ways: (1) by a State contribution from the Central Fund, (2) by a contribution from the rates, and (3) by the rent paid by the tenants. The situation is that, where a county council refuses to impose substantial charges on the rates so as to help to offset the high rent they would otherwise have to charge a cottage tenant, it is customary for it to bring in a differential renting scheme. I do not know whether the Minister has had any experience of that scheme, but we in Dublin have very great experience of it. There is no more unpopular scheme so far as it exists in Dublin City, and on the fringe of the city in my own constituency of Ballyfermot.

That arises from the fact that the local authority, in its anxiety to keep the rates at as low a level as it can and to make up the difference between the grant from the Central Fund and the amount levied by the rates, imposes heavy rents on the tenants. We have tenants in the county paying 24/4 per week for a labourer's cottage. The rents are graded from 9/- to 24/4, based on the total income of the family occupying the cottage. The difficulty of persuading county councils to increase the rates so as to reduce cottage rents is obvious to every member of a county council. You will have a cleavage of opinion invariably as to whether that is justifiable either morally or from the point of view of its utilitarian value.

You will always have difficulty in trying to get local authorities, whether they be corporations, urban councils or county councils, to increase the rates so as to reduce the rents. The only alternative to increasing the rates in order to meet the building costs of houses would be to have a larger contribution from the Central Fund. In that connection, perhaps the Minister would tell us what proposals he has in mind with a view to increasing the contributions to local authorities from the Central Fund in respect of the building of labourers' cottages throughout the country. It would be interesting to hear what his proposals are for the reason that in my constituency my colleague and political opponent, accompanied by some of his henchmen, have spent the last three years travelling the county saying that there was only one way to bring down rents of county council houses and that was by getting a larger contribution from the Central Fund. Now the opportunity is there to do that. I hope it will be done. If it is, it will save myself and others an awful lot of trouble because we need not try any longer to persuade the members of Dublin County Council to increase the rates in order to help to reduce rents.

The Minister stated, in his opening remarks, that the question of rents and of differential rent levels was primarily a matter for the local authorities concerned. I think that there devolves on the Minister a responsibility to see that inordinately or unjustifiably high rents are not charged by county councils to the tenants of working-class houses or of labourers' cottages. Even though county councils and urban councils may be the exception, yet you will find that some of them are prepared to tax unduly the capacity of tenants of cottages to pay high rents in their anxiety to keep the rates down. There are some who will say that there is no justification for asking the Central Fund to provide more money, and that the rates should be increased to reduce the level of the rents charged by county councils to cottage tenants. I would be in agreement with that because the highest rates are paid by those who own the most property in this country, and the collection of rates is, in the last analysis, a re-distribution of the wealth of the country. The volume of opinion, however, would appear to be in favour not of increasing rate levies in the different counties, but rather to have increased grants from the Central Fund for the building of houses. I hope the Minister will give attention to that matter and see that the implied undertakings given by Deputy Burke in the County Dublin during the recent election campaign, and for some months before that, when he prosecuted a vigorous campaign on behalf of the downtrodden tenants of council houses who were being mulcted in high rents by the inter-Party Government, are carried out, and that Deputy Burke will not be disappointed in this present Minister. I hope, too, that in a very short time we will see substantial improvement in the amounts made available from the Central Fund to local authorities for the building of houses. I have thought it desirable to bring this matter to the Minister's attention in the hope that he may issue some directive to local authorities in so far as these rent levels are concerned.

We have the position at present in Dublin City and County that houses are being built at a rate which was never before reached. In Dublin City, houses are now being produced at the rate of one house per working hour. That is a great tribute to the former Minister and to the housing director who has worked night, noon and morning to secure that end. But while these houses are being built and made available to the people, we have this system of renting which is totally unsatisfactory so far as the people are concerned.

I do not think it is just that local authorities should be permitted by the Department of Local Government to assess the total income of a family regardless of what may be the particular circumstances in that family. I do not think it is right that any local authority should have the complete and absolute power to demand from the family of a new county council or corporation tenant full details of their total income. I think there is something wrong about that. I think it could easily be described as an invasion of the privacy of the home. But that is what is being done. I hope—if I am not expecting too much—that some attention will be given to that and that the Government will direct, in accordance with the undertakings given by my colleague, Deputy Burke, that this differential renting system will be either abolished altogether and a flat rate, which would be much simpler, made available to the people who live in county council or corporation houses, or that there will be some other reasonable approach made by members of local authorities to this question.

I hope the sole determining factor shall not be to keep the rates as low as we can at the expense of the unfortunate agricultural labourer, road worker or manual worker of any kind, who is trying to raise a family, by inflicting a higher rent on them just to keep at ease the mind of farmer John Murphy, who has four or five shops in the local town, so that he will not have to pay too much in rates. This is a very important matter and it is one to which I hope the Minister will give attention.

I am glad to hear that the North County Dublin regional water supply scheme, which was referred to by the Minister in his statement, has progressed to the stage he indicated. Of course, this scheme has also been one of the hobby horses of the representative of the Fianna Fáil Party in my constituency for God knows how many years. The matter was first mooted, I think, in 1938 and it was, so far as our knowledge can go, on the shelf in the Custom House for several years. It was not until the advent of the inter-Party Government that anything was done about it. We have now reached the stage where tenders have been invited and, I understand, accepted for the North County Dublin regional water supply scheme. That scheme is of tremendous importance. I hope nothing will be done to prevent its early implementation because upon that scheme depends the well-being of thousands of citizens in my constituency in North County Dublin and, indeed, of the City of Dublin. No houses can be built in that very big area running from the city to Howth and taking in that entire expanse of country from the main Swords road down to the sea until this scheme is in operation, because no drainage exists.

I trust—I hope I am not being too optimistic—that the Minister will ensure that the dead hand which was laid on that scheme from 1938 to 1948 will not be laid upon it again. I trust that the scheme will be pushed forward with at least as much expedition as it was pushed in the last three years by the predecessor of the present Minister.

It is interesting to learn that in the year 1950 there were 7,787 flats and houses built. That must surely constitute a record. No matter what may be said to the contrary, these houses and flats are the most eloquent testimony that can be paid to the work of the previous Minister, the officials of his Department and the hardworking officials of the local authority who had to deal with the housing drive in the last three years. To my own knowledge, it was quite obvious that many of them in the Dublin Corporation and in Dublin County Council were overworked in the extreme. I think the time has come when some recognition should be given to each and every one of these officials, many of whom sacrificed their spare hours and time and worked Saturdays and Sundays in order to try and get the housing drive on the way.

Some recognition should be given to them. They were the apparatus and the machine that made possible such progress as we have made. In the City of Dublin, I understand, it is possible for the corporation to deal now with the case of families of four in one room. I recall some years ago trying to get a house for a family with 11 in one room. It was not possible to do it for love or money. Now we have reached the stage where families of four in one room can be dealt with. With God's help, in the foreseeable future, providing there is no halt put to the impetus of the housing drive, we will see a solution to this problem.

The present Minister's predecessor was handed a problem that was unenviable. It was probably the worst problem that could be handed to a man coming into a Department—the problem of finding houses for 30,000 people, many of whom did not quite appreciate the difficulties involved in the building of houses, and the difficulty of tackling the lengthy and responsible process of the acquisition of land. Some of the ancient methods we have of dealing with that particular problem of land acquisition are unsatisfactory. That is an aspect to which, I hope, the Minister will give consideration in relation to the housing drive in the future. Very often the efforts of local authorities are, to a great extent, negatived by the absence of adequate legal means to make possible the acquisition of land for houses, especially in large city centres. Yet, in spite of the difficulties that did exist, in spite of the slow process of land acquisition and of compulsory acquisition of land, tremendous drives were made. I hope the present Minister will live up to the efforts of his predecessor so far as housing is concerned. If we can judge by the energy he displayed on these benches in other directions he should be able to live up to those efforts. If he lives up to them he will do a very good job. My own opinion is that his time will be very short and we will not be able to judge.

There is another aspect of the activities of this Department upon which I would like to have some enlightenment as to its future policy for this year.

I refer to the question of the official attitude of the Minister towards the employees of the local authorities, their working conditions and their rates of wages. Local authorities constitute one of the largest employing organisations in this country and every Deputy who represents a local constituency knows that the county council is looked upon as being practically the only resort for unemployed men. Very often county council employment provides a convenient stop-gap for the small landholder or the man owning a horse or two. These people can earn some money by working for the local authorities and from that point of view county council employment in recent years has become quite important in relation to the administration of the Department of Local Government.

It is essential, therefore, that those of us who represent rural constituencies should know what the Minister's intentions are in relation to the matter to which I have referred. Will the employment which has been given in the last three years be continued? That is a very important question and the workers want an answer to it. Will the progressive wages policy introduced by the Labour Ministers in the Custom House be continued? We all know that at one time the present Minister for Finance. Deputy MacEntee, was Minister for Local Government. We all know that his policy at that time was diametrically opposed to that adopted by the recent Labour Minister. The policy of the present Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not discussing Deputy MacEntee's policy.

Mr. Dunne

I am merely inquiring from the Minister does he propose to pursue a future policy in consonance with the progressive policy pursued over the past three years? Does he propose to pursue a policy of spancelling the rates of wages paid by local authorities to road workers to the agricultural rate in the different areas? I can recall occasions when a rule of thumb method was applied by a past Minister where, if a local authority wished to increase the wages of its employees by 10/- per week, it was permitted to increase them only by 1/- per week. That policy was in existence not so very many years ago. Is that the kind of policy to which the road workers may look forward for a second time under a Fianna Fáil Government? We would like to have an answer to that. We do not want any equivocation about it. We want to know exactly where we stand. The workers are interested in the reply. They want to know whether they will have full employment and well paid employment.

In my own constituency in County Dublin the road workers are anxious to know if the Minister will sanction increased wages for them this year. I am sure the same applies throughout the country where recommendations are made by local authorities. Will we have in the future a continuance of the happy relationship that existed over the past three years between the Minister for Local Government and the local authorities? We all know that that happy relationship can only be maintained on the basis of co-operation. Will we have that co-operation or will there be a reversion to the dictatorial attitude of former years? I sincerely hope there will not be such a reversion. I am sure many members of the present Government hold similar hopes because, apart from it being a bad thing to have unhappy relationships existing between local authorities and the central authority, it is also bad politics. That is a very important consideration for Fianna Fáil.

So many aspects of this Estimate enter into the ordinary lives of the people that more time would be required in dealing with them fully. The Minister referred in his opening statement to libraries and the work of the Library Council. I think much more can be done in the future in regard to the provision of adequate library services. We all know that the library service is practically the only solace rural dwellers have. It is fully availed of at the present time, but I believe that very often the service leaves much to be desired, not through any lack of effort on the part of the committees but purely because of the fact that inadequate financial provision is made for the service. I think there should be at the earliest possible date a complete reorganisation of the library service from the top down so as to ensure that the people who avail of it in the rural areas will have a wide and varied selection of books of all kinds rather than a restricted or limited selection of a number of books of various kinds in order that they may get the maximum amount of enjoyment in their leisure hours. From that point of view the provision of an adequate library service should receive the attention of the Minister. I sincerely hope it will. I trust that the provision of library services will be reviewed, and that steps will be taken to improve the present situation along the lines I have suggested.

I have referred to many matters which are of importance. They are for the most part matters which are burning topics of discussion up and down the country amongst members of local authorities. I hope the Minister will give us some indication when he has examined the problem of the proposals he has in mind for improving the condition of the ordinary people. It must be remembered that the present Minister sits where he does by virtue of the fact that he was successful in persuading a majority of the representatives of the people here to vote him into office.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 21st June, 1951.