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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1951

Vol. 126 No. 4

Post Office (Amendment) Bill, 1951—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

This Bill is designed to remove defects in existing Post Office legislation and to give a greater degree of freedom in the conduct of certain types of Post Office business.

The principal piece of legislation governing Post Office activities is the Post Office Act of 1908, which, with relatively few amendments, is in force to-day. I think it is a tribute to the framers of that Act that it has stood the test of time so remarkably well and that the principles laid down in it have provided so satisfactory a foundation for the conduct of Post Office business. However, it is only to be expected that changing conditions and developments would make modifications of the Act necessary. The provisions of the Bill now before the Dáil represent the changes which are required to bring the measure into conformity with modern needs.

The explanatory memorandum which has been circulated explains the various matters included in the Bill, but there are some sections with which I will deal in greater detail.

Section 2.—The 1908 Act gave general power to the Treasury to fix, by warrant, rates of postage and other sums to be charged on postal packets and to regulate the scale of weights and circumstances according to which those rates and sums were to be charged. This power was qualified by certain restrictions as to the maximum amounts which might be charged for certain classes of postal packets, including letters, postcards, book packets (now printed packets), inland newspapers and newspapers for places outside the British islands. These restrictions were all gradually removed by subsequent legislation except that restrictions remained as to the maximum postage which might be charged for newspapers.

In introducing revised postage rates as from 1st July, 1948, I understand that the existence of a limitation on the rate of postage for inland newspapers was inadvertently overlooked and a rate of 1½d. was introduced compared with the permitted maximum of 1d. Section 2 of the Bill is designed to rectify this position.

Section 3 provides for the removal of the limitation of 3d. on the postage which may be charged on a newspaper posted to a country (other than Great Britain) outside the State. This proposal is in keeping with that in Section 2 dealing with inland newspapers and is made in order to permit postage rates for newspapers for foreign countries to be fixed by warrant as is the case with rates for all other classes of postal packets.

Section 4.—It is the general practice of postal administrations to accord special postage rates not only to books and papers for the use of the blind but also to sound recordings, plates for embossing Braille and other articles specially adapted for the use of the blind. The House will, I am sure, have no hesitation in agreeing to the proposed extension of the application of the special postage rate for literature for the blind which is the purpose of this section.

Section 5.—The Post Office Act, 1908, Section 24, lays down that the form in which postal orders are issued must be prescribed by statutory regulation, and limits to 21/- the amount for which a postal order may be issued, and to 2d. the maximum poundage per order which may be charged. Section 5 of this Bill proposes to abolish the necessity for prescribing the form of postal orders by statutory regulation and also to remove the limits of 21/- and 2d. referred to. These provisions are necessary in case, for instance, it should be found desirable to vary the form of the existing postal order or to issue postal orders of a higher value than 21/- or to charge higher poundage.

Section 6 is designed to give power to operate a business-reply service for which a demand exists and which has proved very successful in other countries. This service would enable firms to send an unstamped card, envelope, folder or label of a special pattern with their advertising matter to be returned through the post unstamped to the originating firms who would be responsible for the normal postage, plus an additional fee on the returned items.

Section 7 is designed to regularise the position in regard to the customs examination of "Green Label" packets. The "Green Label" service is an international service governed by the Universal Postal Convention under the provisions of which "Green Label" packets containing goods may be sent by letter post to countries which have agreed to accept them. The "Green Label" serves both as a customs declaration and as authority from the sender that the packet may be opened for customs examination.

Section 8 proposes to extend to aircraft the obligations and duties imposed on ships in regard to mails. This is necessary, because the Post Office is now very considerably engaged in the conveyance of mails by air and because of the likelihood of air conveyance continuing to increase. This section also proposes to abolish the statutory obligation on the master of an inward-bound vessel to sign a particular declaration form relating to postal packets on board. The declaration in question is not now considered necessary in this country.

Section 9 proposes to deal with defects existing at present as regards the proper registration of newspapers to enable them to qualify for the newspaper rate of postage. To qualify for that rate newspapers must, in accordance with Sections 20 and 21 of the Act of 1908, comply with certain conditions, including registration with the Post Office in London. These sections have not hitherto been adapted to provide for the registration of newspapers at the G.P.O., Dublin, and permit their transmission at the newspaper rate of postage although the service has always been operated here. The proposal in this section will remedy this position.

Section 10—The Department is advised that it is doubtful if its existing powers adequately cover the operation of the cash on delivery parcel service and this section is designed to give legislative power to conduct the service in accordance with Post Office regulations.

Section 11 proposes a more convenient and workable method of fixing foreign telephone fees. At present the Department is required to issue a statutory regulation for the purpose. The fees depend largely on the payments and terminal credits which have to be made to the countries through which the calls actually pass. These charges are not within the Department's control and the foreign telephone rates are, therefore, liable to variation from time to time. It is proposed in future to fix them by notice in the Iris Oifigiuil.

Section 12 of the Bill is designed to prohibit without authority the use of certain words, letters or marks associated with the Department's services. The unauthorised use of some of the Department's signs in the past has given rise to difficulties and this section is intended to give adequate power to deal with abuses of the kind.

Section 13 is necessary to enable the Department to deal adequately with telephone offences, e.g., nuisance calls. false ambulance calls, grossly offensive or annoying conduct on the telephone. The Department's existing powers to prosecute for such offences are extremely limited. The only statutory power that can be invoked is that contained in Section 67 (1) of the Post Office Act, 1908, which makes it an offence "whilst in any post office or within a premises belonging to any post office or used therewith" to obstruct the course of business of the Post Office. This section can only be used in cases where the offence is committed from a post office call office or a kiosk. A prosecution cannot be brought under this Act where the offence is committed from a subscriber's telephone. The proposed clause in this Bill will enable prosecutions for such offences to be taken where warranted.

Section 14.—Section 64 of the Post Office Act, 1908, prohibits unauthorised imitations of post office stamps, envelopes, etc., or marks which might lead to the belief that a postal packet bearing them is sent on the service of the State. The section needs to be adapted in order that it may have full force and effect in the State, and Section 14 of the Bill provides accordingly.

Last week, on the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs, I drew attention to the mounting losses in recent years on the Department's working and said that I was examining certain proposals for increasing postal and telephone charges, designed to ease the situation, which the late Government were preparing to introduce when the general election was announced.

The estimated deficit at the end of the financial year 1950-51 was of the order of £500,000. The increased charges contemplated by our predecessors are expected, in a full year, to yield enough to offset that deficit but, with about a quarter of the present financial year already spent and the difficulty of changing telephone rates for some time, the additional revenue likely to be received in 1951-52 will not be more than £220,000.

The principal changes involved are in the printed paper rate which will be 1½d. for the first 4 oz. instead of 1d. for the first 2 oz. and an increase in the surcharge on telephones from 5 per cent. to 25 per cent. These two items together will give £413,000 per annum. Increases in the poundage on postal and money orders and in the charges for foreign, inland and British parcel post will, it is estimated, add another £72,000 in a full year.

The Government are satisfied that in the circumstances in which the Post Office finds itself these increases are justified and have authorised me to give effect to them as soon as may be practicable. It is, therefore, proposed to introduce the new postal rates right-away and to make the new telephone charges operative as from 1st October in the case of charges for calls and 1st January next for rentals. In justification of the increases, I may say that the wage bill of Post Office employees has increased by 139 per cent. over 1939 (excluding the recent Civil Service Arbitration Board award) while the cost of a wide range of materials largely used by the Post Office has increased in the same period from 200 per cent. to 600 per cent. As compared with 1939, the poundage on postal and money orders has not changed at all, the telephone rates at present in operation are only 5 per cent. higher, most other postal rates have been advanced by from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent. only, while in only two directions have charges gone up 100 per cent.

I should like to emphasise two points—(1) what we are now doing is to give effect to a decision taken before the change of Government, and (2) the increased charges are only roughly sufficient to meet the deficit disclosed at the end of the last financial year. Since that time the Civil Service award has been accepted by the Government, other claims affecting departmental classes are being negotiated, while the cost of materials and services which the Post Office has to buy continued to mount. In these circumstances, and having regard to the Department's policy of paying its way, it is more than probable that further increased charges may have to be announced later.

I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of my Bill. He is in the fortunate position that it will be well received by those of us on this side of the House whereas if I were introducing my own Bill the members of the Fianna Fáil Party would denounce it. They are silent to-day because they are sitting on the Government side of the House.

This piece of legislation was necessary if for no other reason than to give some facilities to the blind and also to legalise the position in regard to the expression "on His Majesty's Service". The sooner that latter position is legalised, the better.

The Minister has stated that the Government are satisfied that, in the circumstances in which the Post Office finds itself, certain increases which the previous Government were preparing to introduce when the general election was announced are justified and that he has been authorised to give effect to them as soon as may be practicable. We are not going to make any political capital in regard to this matter though our attitude is different from the way in which I was met when I had occasion to bring in proposals for certain increased charges.

When the Minister's Party was in opposition there was much adverse comment in regard to the fact that I had failed to give any increase in the pensions of men who retired under Article 10 of the Treaty. These men had refused to work under any Government of this country. I am sure that the Minister will adopt my policy which was that the men who refused to work for any Government of this State are not worthy of receiving further compensation from any Government of this country.

The Minister is getting off lightly now, but I can assure him that he will not get away so easily on his next Estimate. This is my Bill and I accept responsibility for it. We were responsible, as a Government, for initiating it. We have no apologies to make.

The Minister referred to the increase in wages. What increase in wages took place in the Post Office between 1948 and the present time? Greater increases took place between 1948 and 1950 than took place during the previous ten years in all sections of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

The Minister states that probably there will be a new Bill to increase further the charges in the Post Office. I can only sympathise with the Minister. I am sure he will get all the opposition which we can possibly command in relation to all extra charges which have not been announced so far. He says:—

"Since the time the Civil Service award has been accepted by the Government, other claims affecting departmental classes are being negotiated, while the cost of materials and services which the Post Office has to buy continued to mount. In these circumstances, and having regard to the Department's policy of paying its way, it is more than probable that further increased charges may have to be announced later."

I have always objected to the Department making a profit. I maintain that their sole duty was to be of service to the nation and not to make a profit. They are a nationalised service, if you like. It is their duty to provide all the services and facilities they possibly can for the benefit of the public.

We have gone a great way in regard to our air service. I hope the Minister will also continue the revision of all the country areas. For too long—prior to my taking over responsibility as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—has the Department of Finance been forced to reduce the services in the country while giving greater facilities to the towns and cities. I hope the Minister will stand up to any treasurer or Finance Department that tries to interfere with the facilities and amenities for rural areas. One-fifth of the country has been revised. The people in the hills and in the hamlets have their daily delivery.

I appeal to the Minister to continue to press further until we have the whole Twenty-Six Counties revised so that the people in the rural areas will get facilities similar to those in the towns and cities. The Minister will receive our support in that work. I know he will have opposition from the Finance Department but he can stand up to it, knowing that he will have the support of all fair-minded Deputies in this House in spending money when it means a benefit to these people.

By the reorganisation I initiated with the help of the officials, we were able to give a daily delivery to the people in rural areas without any extra cost. Formerly, they had only two deliveries a week and sometimes only one. I will give the Minister every help and assistance to carry out that policy.

I have always objected to retrospective legislation, but it was necessary in this case. In this case, it was needed in order to legalise some of the things we should have accomplished years ago. We are bringing consolation to the poor blind who have very few friends. For those reasons I am supporting the Bill.

I think that a change of Government is a very desirable thing at times. We have here a Bill prepared by Deputy Everett of the inter-Party Government, which is now introduced by a Fianna Fáil Government. That means that the Bill will receive constructive criticism and will be dealt with, as all Bills ought to be dealt with, purely on its merits.

I think it is fundamental that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should, as near as possible, pay its way. Certainly, there ought to be no justification for a loss on the working of the Post Office amounting to approximately £500,000. Where there is a deficiency of that large amount, it is necessary that charges should be increased and that is one of the major objectives of this particular Bill.

Reference has been made by the Minister's predecessor to increases in wages and that those increases in wages and to the fact that those increases in wages that have been sanctioned increase the deficiency and that it is necessary to have these increased charges to pay those authorised increases in wages. I think that it would be right on this Bill to refer to the fact that a large number of employees and officials of the Post Office are still inadequately paid and, although I accept what has been said by Deputy Everett that there have been considerable increases in the past three years, there is no doubt whatsoever about it that temporary postmen, particularly in rural areas and even in the cities, and sub-postmasters all through the country are paid a scandalously inadequate wage. The Minister would be doing great work if he would make provision in the increase of the charges to enable a decent living wage to be paid to those officials of the Post Office. The Post Office is an essential service. It is a Government service. We hear quite a lot nowadays about social teaching, and certainly with regard to social teaching the Government ought to give a lead by the proper payment of its own servants and employees. I would avail of the opportunity offered by this Bill to make a plea to the Minister on behalf of those particular Post Office employees and officials.

There are many desirable things in this Bill. It is desirable that there ought to be a legalisation and a regularisation of things that have been done without proper authority in the past. I am glad to see steps being taken to increase the value of postal orders. I think that would be of great benefit to the community as a whole. With the decreasing value of money, particularly over the last ten years, I do not think anyone will object to the increased charges that are suggested in the Bill.

I hope it will be possible on the Committee Stage of this Bill, which is an amending Bill, to amend the original 1908 Act. I hope it will be possible to go into a few more sections of that 1908 Act, those sections that authorise the censorship of letters and those sections, whether they are in that Act or not, that make provision for the tapping of telephones. This House ought to take the opportunity now of seeing, if it is necessary to open and censor the letters of private individuals, that that can only be done under the most stringent precautions and that it will not be possible, as it has been suggested was done in the past, for political communications passing from one citizen to another to be detained, opened and photographed, without the knowledge of either the sender or the receiver.

In the new temper of the country there will be no necessity for that type of action, but now that we are getting the opportunity on this Bill we ought to make those sections water-tight so that they can be used only when it is necessary that they should be used in the interest of and for the preservation of the State. As I said, I am glad that this Bill is being approached in a constructive and sensible way by the House, and I hope that all of us will contribute to the discussion of the Bill so that any defects which we are aware of in the administration of the Post Office may be removed with the goodwill of this House acting unanimously in the public interest.

The Deputy who has just sat down knows much better than anyone listening to him that it is not the Department of Posts and Telegraphs or the Minister in charge of that Department that is responsible for the censoring of letters. He knows perfectly well from past history—it may have applied to himself—that the Minister for Justice is the Minister who authorises the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to perform that function, desirable or undesirable as it may be. I suggest to Deputy Cowan, with his fairly intimate knowledge of the constitutional and legal position, that he should have a friendly conversation with the new Minister for Justice in the matter, as he is now in a position to have. I am sure that if Deputy Cowan has a friendly conversation with the Minister for Justice, he will be able to persuade him with very little argument, now that he is in the position of controlling the Ministers and the Government, which is a Coalition Government, not a Fianna Fáil Government, that it is undesirable to continue the practice which has hitherto prevailed and which probably applied to himself when the previous Fianna Fáil Government were in office with their clear majority.

I do not think the Bill could be amended in that way.

I was afraid of that, but perhaps it could be done by agreement.

I am sure Deputy Cowan and every other Deputy will agree that it is about time that sections of any Act of the Victorian days like the 1908 Act or any other Act of Parliament passed by the British House of Commons when in control of the affairs of this country were amended, if not altogether repealed, and that this Bill is long overdue. I was glad to hear from Deputy Everett, and I am sure the Minister will confirm it, that he was the first person, with his advisers, to consider the urgency and the necessity for bringing in this amending legislation. The Post Office Department should be regarded, and I am sure is regarded by every Deputy with experience, as a public service corporation set up, not for profit-making purposes, but for the purpose of giving the best possible facilities to every section of our citizens, whether they live in the cities or towns or in the rural areas.

Deputy Everett has indicated that the revision of the postal facilities since he was appointed Minister had been carried out to the extent of about one-fifth of the whole area controlled by the Post Office. I am sure that the Minister, with his reasonably good outlook, and I know him to have a fairly good social outlook on matters of this kind, will continue that good work, speed up the job and get it brought to a satisfactory conclusion as quickly as possible.

We are getting very far back to the Estimate now.

I am following the good example set by the Minister in introducing his predecessor's Bill and in making the speech prepared for his predecessor which dealt with all these matters. I am also following the good example set by my colleague, Deputy Cowan, who now controls the Minister and all his colleagues in the Government and can put them in or out at his sweet will, as he put them in some time ago. Speaking of my own constituency, I urge the Minister to speed up the work of revision and to give every occupier of a holding, whether in the remote rural areas or in the villages or towns in my constituency, the same public service facilities as are afforded to citizens who live in the cities. It is a public scandal and a disgrace to any Government, past or present, that they should tolerate the conditions under which 2,000 or 3,000 auxiliary postmen are employed at present. If a Labour Government with a Labour majority were in office, I certainly would not tolerate for ten minutes that we should have citizens of this State, wearing the uniform of the Government, paid for by the taxpayers of the country, engaged on part-time work at as low a figure, in my constituency at any rate, as 37/6 per week. The unfortunate thing about these temporary auxiliary postmen is that when they have completed their part-time work they have no alternative employment to supplement their Post Office earnings. They have to go and dig their own gardens because they will not be employed part-time by Bord na Móna, the local authority, or even by the majority of farmers. The majority of farmers are looking for men who can work a full day or a full week. That is the position as I see it, and the sooner we blot out from the records of the Post Office the disgraceful condition in which temporary part-time postmen are employed the better it will be. I urge the Minister to speed up the work of revision and give to every citizen in the State equal facilities in regard to a public service of this kind and also to give to every Post Office employee conditions of service which can be defended by a Christian Government in a Christian country.

First of all, I wish to assure Deputy Everett, the former Minister, that it is not the intention that the postal services and the telegraph and telephone services should make a profit. I gave a very limited kind of warning in regard to higher charges soley because people should be prepared for eventualities which may or may not occur. As I have said, we do not intend to make a profit on these services. The actual figures may be of interest to the public and to Deputies as I think they were lost sight of during the discussion on the Estimate. Assuming that the bonus award comes into operation—we know it is coming into operation—and retrospective increases are granted to the 15th January, 1951, the loss on the postal services for the financial year 1950-51 will be £316,000, the loss on the telegraph service £250,000, and the profit on the telephone service, £92,000, making a net loss of £474,000. In future, there will be a large commitment on the telephone service in paying the annuities arising from telephone capital charges. In other words, we are borrowing money for a long-term telephone development and spreading it out as best we can. Certain annuities will fall due and they will increase the total charges for expenditure on the telephone service.

Deputy Everett, I think, should know that during our term of office we had to pass certain items of retrospective legislation. I can hardly believe that we would have dealt so hardly with him if he had been Minister as he suggests. One can never tell what the temper of the debate will be on any particular occasion and one should naturally avoid retrospective legislation. In this particular case there were matters of no great importance although it was rather fantastic that for a long time we have had to have newspapers registered in London in order that they should be the subject of certain administrative regulations here. Now that has been changed. Deputy Everett will also recognise that we did a great deal during our first 16 years of office to establish Irish institutions and to bring about a more satisfactory state of affairs in regard to that matter and we may be forgiven for some of these omissions.

The revision of the postal service now extends to about one-fifth of the country with a view to providing daily post and better facilities. The work will be undertaken for the rest as soon as possible. In fact, it is going on continuously area by area.

Deputy Cowan referred to the rate of wages for part-time postmen. I am glad to say that they went up very considerably during the period of office of the previous Administration but one and they went up further in the time of the Administration that has just now terminated. The total increases varied from 77 to 90 per cent. in certain grades and, as I said during the course of the debate on the Estimate, the wages paid to unestablished postmen and auxiliary postmen are over modest. There have been increases and there will be further increases under the Civil Service arbitration award which will affect in turn all grades of postmen in the country. They will get their share of the increase resulting from the general arbitration award by the Civil Service Tribunal. In other words, they had increases during the period 1939-1948, further increases during the last three years and almost immediately will have another increase dating back, I hope, to January 15th. So that progress is being made in that direction.

Deputy Davin spoke of these postmen as being part-time and finding it difficult to secure alternative employment for the rest of the day. So far as I understand, a good number of them manage to produce an income— shall we put it that way—a supplementary income—during the remainder of the day. That may not apply to all of them, but, knowing their rates of wages, I am thankful that a good many of them at least are able to do that. It is a source of consolation to me because I am well aware that, taken as a weekly rate, as suggested by the Deputy, the wage is obviously grossly inadequate as the person's total remuneration. I have not gone into the matter. I have not been long enough in charge of this Department to have any idea of how many get an additional income and what form it takes and how far their work as part-time postmen fits into a family scheme of life which suits certain individuals in rural areas. I have not had time to investigate that.

Deputy Cowan referred also to postmen's wages and to the position of sub-postmasters. The remuneration of sub-postmasters has been increased in the same way as that of postmen and all other grades in the service during the last few years, since the increase in the cost of living. As the Deputy knows, in country districts, the demand for sub-postmasterships and the pressure brought to bear on Deputies and others interested for sub-postmasterships would seem to suggest that the remuneration, if not adequate, was at least worth while from the standpoint of the social status conferred on the shop concerned.

It is only a side-line.

Deputy Cowan himself has been interested in time past in rural areas and I think he probably knows what happens to the Minister of the day when a sub-postmastership becomes vacant. The pressure brought to bear for these positions, sometimes where the contract is for a figure of anything up to £57 a year, is appallingly difficult for the Minister to face. The last Minister established a selection board, as the Deputy knows, and we are continuing that experiment, but, of course, as I said in the course of the debate on the Estimate, the Minister is ultimately and solely responsible for the appointment of subpostmasters and we are continuing the experiment with a view to seeing how it works.

Censorship does not form part of this Bill and it would be irrelevant for me to discuss it even because under the old Post Office Act of 1908 the position is that it is an offence against the law to open letter packets except on a warrant which in former cases was under the British authorities and which is now under the Minister for Justice. In other words, the Act says that the Minister for Justice can compel the Post Office to have letters opened, but it does not form part of the Bill and I do not think any amendment will be accepted by the Ceann Comhairle which will revise those parts of the old Act relevant to censorship because two Ministries are involved and it is not relevant to the Bill which deals with purely minor matters of a different character. Not one of them, as far as I can see, has any relationship to censorship or is even remotely connected with censorship. Section 7 for example deals solely with customs regulations and simply makes it possible for the customs authorities to open letter packets that have attached to them a green label, in the same way as they are permitted under other regulations to open parcels for customs purposes. So, therefore, it is not really relevant to the Bill.

I took an opportunity of mentioning the increase in telephone charges and, although the Deputies know from their previous experience that we are not obliged under the law of the land to obtain the consent of the Dáil for these charges, I took what was almost an illegal opportunity of making a statement in the matter. It would have been more correct of me to ask the Ceann Comhairle in the first instance for leave to make the statement on the increased charges for posts and telegraphs simply by way of statement to the house. It is not relevant to the Bill and cannot be discussed either now or on Committee Stage, but perhaps the Acting-Chairman will forgive me for not having asked formal leave to make the statement.

The former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs increased certain postal charges after coming into office and he was criticised by members of our Party. So I thought that in future, although the postal service is a commercial service in one sense, in that it presents commercial accounts which have been viewed by the Auditor-General, as it is a matter of public concern, it is a good thing to make some statement when telephone or postal charges have to be increased. I made the statement for that reason. If the House will give me permission, I would just like to reassure the minds of the public in regard to the colossal increases that have taken place in certain types of costs so that they will be prepared for these increases and will understand the necessity for them.

I mentioned in the course of my statement that the total wage bill had gone up by 139 per cent. since before the war. Deputies will be interested in the cost of materials used in the Post Office, the increases in respect of which in some cases are quite fantastic and which are the result of examination by the Controller of Stores and the contracts section and therefore can be regarded as the lowest possible under the circumstances. A postman's uniform—tunic, vest and trousers—has gone up from £1 10s. 5d. in 1939—it would be undesirable for me to give the exact figure—to something round about £7 in 1951. That is one item very largely used. If you take ordinary cable, that has gone up from £43 per 1,000 yards to somewhere between £190 and £200 per 1,000 yards—nearly five times—in the period from 1939 to 1951. Light poles, 22 feet long, which the public can see every day when moving around the country, have gone up in price, too. They were 7/4 each in 1939, and they are well over £2 each in 1951.

I mention those items because the increases in the price of materials used by the Post Office are far greater than the increases in the case of articles more commonly bought in the shops, although there have been increases there too. Copper wire, for example, has gone up from £56 per ton to somewhere between £265 and £275 per ton. It was those tremendous increases, together with the wage bill, the growth in telephone development, and increased capital annuity charges which have given rise to the increased charges we have announced in this way so as to give the public some idea of the reason for them. Perhaps Deputies might like to hear the comparative rates for foreign surface mail in European countries compared with this country. Taking the rate for the first unit of 1 oz., the charges in European countries for foreign surface mail are: Belgium, 8d.; Denmark, 6d.; France, 6¼d; Norway, 5½d.; Holland, 4½d.; Switzerland, 8d.; Sweden, 5d.; Portugal, 7d.; Great Britain, 4d. general and 2½d. preferential; Ireland, 4½d. general and 3½d. preferential. These figures show that we have not increased our charges in comparison with other countries, and that our position, comparatively speaking, is satisfactory in that respect.

That, I think, is all I have to say in reply to Deputies. I think I have answered all their points. I do not know whether Deputy Cowan intends to examine the Post Office Act of 1908 so as to make the amendments, relevant to the present Bill, that he has in mind. I had a faint idea that perhaps the House might permit me to have all stages of this Bill to-day. I want to say that I am entirely in their hands in that respect.

Will the Minister say what the average percentage increase for materials is now as compared with 1939?

They vary enormously. One may say that there is a group of them in which the increase would be from 200 to 300 per cent. May I put the matter this way? As regards about seven items, the increase is 300 per cent.; for five items, the increase is 400 per cent.; for one item the increase is 200 per cent., and in the case of another single item the increase is 600 per cent.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

On that question, I think the Minister can be assured that we agree it would not be in order to introduce any new matter into the Bill as drafted. His mind can be happy on that point; but, on the other hand, there are a number of matters in the Bill which closely affect the commercial community here. This Bill, while it was circulated before the Dissolution, was reintroduced the other day. I think that the Minister himself would, ultimately, be more satisfied, and so I think would all parties concerned, if the Committee Stage were put down for next week. All stages can be taken on Wednesday next. In view of the fact that a number of matters in the Bill affect the commercial community in a close way, it would be better, I think, to give an opportunity both to the Minister and those who are interested in the way of moving amendments, if the Committee Stage were taken next week.

I accept the Deputy's suggestion.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, the 4th July, 1951.
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