Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1951

Vol. 126 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government (Resumed).

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

In concluding my introductory statement on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, I invited Deputies to raise any matters affecting local bodies of which they had knowledge and experience. I assured them that, to whatever extent it was possible for me to reply to those matters, I would do so when concluding on the Estimate. When extending that invitation to Deputies, I had no idea that the number and variety of the questions raised would be as large and as wide as they have proved to be. Hence, I am afraid I will not be able to keep the general sort of undertaking which I gave in that regard.

There are, however, a few matters which were raised by Deputies of all Parties with which I would like to deal. These largely referred to questions as to what my general line of policy would be on the matters raised. For example, I was asked what my attitude would be towards the Local Authorities (Works) Act which was passed by this House in 1949. When that Bill which, ultimately, became an Act, was going through the House, I was a member of the Opposition. Although I am not objecting to the charge that was made here, still I think it has been unfairly charged against us that our attitude to that Bill was one of violent opposition.

I deny that charge. I admit that, on that occasion, we did what I would expect any Opposition to do, what I would expect the present Opposition to do when a measure of that nature or, indeed, of any nature is introduced here, namely, to make use of the machinery provided here to criticise the provisions in a measure about which they are in doubt, and to propose any amendments that they think would be of importance, or that would tend to improve it. I have looked over the discussions which took place on that occasion. I find that, far from there being any substance in the charge of obstruction made against us when that Bill was before the House, eight of the amendments which we, as an Opposition Party, moved to it were accepted by the Government without a division, and eight other of our amendments were defeated. These results indicate, I think, that at least there was some merit in the course which we pursued on that occasion.

So far as the administration of that Act is concerned, I want to draw the attention of Deputies to this fact, especially the Deputies who were supporting the Government and the Minister who was responsible for the preparation of the Estimate to which I am now speaking, that not one of those Deputies has drawn attention to the fact that the provision in the present Estimate in respect of that Act is £1,220,000 or £530,000 less than it was last year. While I am not in any way laying a charge against my predecessor that he had not good reason for reducing the Estimate in the way in which I have described, I suggest to those Deputies who have been critical as to what my policy in relation to this Act will be in the future that, although they were anxious to find out what my policy might be in the future, they offered no criticism of the fact that the money made available for expenditure under this Act will be £530,000 less this year than it was last year.

Mr. Davin

Why?

Mr. Smith

I do not know.

Mr. Davin

Because the local authorities have not put up the schemes yet.

Mr. Smith

That is not so. We have £4,000,000 worth of schemes.

Mr. Davin

What have you sanctioned?

Mr. Smith

I am merely stating that so far as my information goes there is roughly £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 worth of schemes submitted by local authorities. I am merely reminding Deputy Davin and others who are inquisitive as to what my attitude will be that they might have directed their questions first of all towards finding out why this Estimate was reduced in the way in which I have described. In the knowledge that the works to be undertaken by local authorities under this Act will be works of a permanent nature, I want to assure Deputies that I and my Department will consider fairly and reasonably all the proposals that are put up by local bodies and there will be no question of any serious departure from that policy.

Mr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister give a guarantee that the schemes will be continued next year?

Mr. Smith

I have made my statement.

Mr. O'Higgins

You have not stated anything.

Mr. Smith

I am standing here over an Estimate for £1,200,000, an Estimate inserted in the Book of Estimates by my predecessor. I am drawing attention to the fact that there is a certain sum of money available to me. I am giving an undertaking that so far as I can I will ensure that this money is wisely spent. I am reminding Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, Deputy Davin and others that the Estimate has been reduced this year by £530,000. I am reminding them that the logical conclusion to be drawn from that reduction is that the previous Minister responsible for this Department must have had some reason for making that reduction. What that reason was I do not know.

Mr. Davin

You will increase it, if necessary, and if it is justified.

Mr. Smith

I have made my attitude clear so far as the Local Authorities (Works) Act is concerned.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister has not yet made his policy clear.

Mr. Smith

Other Deputies were anxious to know what my attitude would be in relation to wages. Although no definite charge was made, it seemed as if they had in mind that I might have some desire to interfere unnecessarily with something that I regard as the true responsibility of local authorities themselves. I was for a while a member of a local authority. As a result of my association with that body, as a result of my experience here and as a result of the practice that has always been followed, I know that it is the responsibility of local authorities and the county manager to determine both the rates of wages and the general conditions under which their employees will work. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see local authorities approaching their task with a full and proper sense of their responsibilities. As long as I am satisfied that they discharge their responsibilities fairly and equitably, I assure the House that I have no desire on my part to interfere unduly with any decisions they may arrive at in relation to rates of wages or conditions of employment.

I think it was Deputy Davin or Deputy Cowan who asked me to state in a general way what my attitude will be towards the County Administration Bill, a Bill which had reached a certain stage here prior to the Dissolution. I have not yet had time to go into all the ramifications of the Bill. I have not yet had time to seek the advice of my colleagues in the Government as to what out attitude should be in relation to that measure. Like all measures, I take it there may be some provisions in it that are useful and some provisions that may be either unnecessary or undesirable. Although I had an opportunity, as other Deputies had, of taking an interest in the measure when it was under discussion here and acquiring more knowledge of its provisions, I did not take advantage of that opportunity and since taking office I have not had time to go into the matter in detail. I intend to do so as soon as I can. When the appropriate opportunity presents itself I shall inform the House and the public as to what my attitude is in relation to it.

The question of the direct labour system in the construction of houses by local authorities was raised here. I have an open mind in regard to that matter. I am not prejudiced in one direction or the other. I regard anything that will introduce into the construction of houses that element of competition which will tend, I hope, to reduce the cost of this service as good and useful. Local authorities can, therefore, proceed to adopt either the contract system or the direct labour system, whichever they regard as most suitable to their needs. So long as they do this, they will find that they will not be obstructed, but they will be encouraged rather, as far as I am concerned.

I do not claim to have made a study of the matter since taking office, but some time ago I remember reading discussions which took place at meetings of local bodies where a good deal of hostility seemed to be directed towards the introduction of the contract system in the construction of roads. What I cannot understand is that while some of those who were hostile to the idea of the contract system in the making of roads where the direct labour system prevailed, took the opposite view in relation to the erection of houses where the contract system was in operation. While I have not gone into this matter in a very thorough fashion, I think it would be a good thing if we had both these systems in operation, because as most well-informed people are aware one system serves as a check upon the other and ensures that the best value is obtained for the money spent.

Every Deputy who spoke referred to housing. Despite the fact that one sometimes finds a tendency on the part of public men to make claims of one kind or another, one against the other, depending on the particular political affiliations of the individual concerned, throwing our minds back over a great many years housing is the one item on which there has been almost entire unanimity. Not only was that unanimity shown here, but it also prevailed throughout the country. I thought that the position in Cork City as outlined by Deputy Dr. O'Higgins, Deputy Seán MacCarthy and Deputy McGrath could not be absolutely correct. I thought it strange that the story they told in regard to the progress made there could be accurate. Since hearing them speak I have made some inquiries as to what was taking place in that area, and I have to admit now that there appear to be some grounds for the general complaint made as to the rate of progress in housing.

I am afraid I have to admit that there were some grounds for the general complaint that was made as to the rate of progress in housing. We have already taken some steps that may tend to improve the position there but the only thing I can say to the Deputies who are representing that constituency is that the Department and myself will take an interest in the complaints that were voiced here and we shall do everything we can with their co-operation. The members of the corporation are men who are not slow to make their voices heard and to make their point of view known. I do not say they should not; in fact, they should initiate a fairly strenuous discussion with the city manager on the matters about which they spoke here. Knowing that they are reasonable men, that they will make their case in a reasonable way and that they will only expect reasonable results, I can assure them that in taking that line of action in order to speed up the erection of houses in Cork City they will have the support of myself and the Department in full measure.

Mr. Hickey

The blame, then, for the delay in building houses is with the Cork Corporation and not with your Department?

Mr. Smith

If you ask me to answer that question I will have to say that it is not with the Department of Local Government. I would prefer that we were not asked now to decide that issue, because it is not of any importance. The past is gone. I am talking of the future and I am suggesting to Deputy Hickey and to the Aldermen and members of the corporation a way in which, perhaps, we may secure an improvement in the position as it exists. I will carry out the undertaking I have given if I get, as I expect I will, the co-operation I have asked for.

Mr. Davin

The city manager has more power than the corporation in this matter.

Mr. Smith

I am not discussing the powers of the corporation. I am discussing the question of housing in Cork City.

Mr. Davin

The power is in the hands of one man.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

You may be thanked for that.

Mr. O'Higgins

The people who brought in the County Management Act—the temporary Government.

Mr. Smith

There was a good deal of discussion about that much debated question of the differential rents system. I am in the happy position that I was not, at any time, until I came into the Department of Local Government, charged with making up my mind as to what I thought of that particular system. I listened with the greatest interest to what Deputies in this House, who are members of local bodies and who have some experience of its working, had to say. I have since made inquiries from the officials of the Department as to the accuracy or otherwise of some of the statements that were made as to the amount of hostility that prevailed against the differential rents system. I take it that the officials responsible are briefing me accurately when they say there is no evidence of volume of hostility to the system that was spoken of here. Without claiming any special knowledge of the way in which the system operates, I do admit, from my own general knowledge, of how people react to a system of that kind, that you are bound to have a good deal of criticism, a good deal of misunderstanding and, perhaps, a fair share of dissatisfaction from place to place. If this scheme is fair and equitable as it seems to be, one cannot find any strong argument to make against it. While admitting that that is the case, in the operation of something that looks fair and reasonable, you sometimes find that things do not work out, as they say, according to plan. In so far as most local bodies are concerned with this new system, there undoubtedly have been complaints. Local bodies have the power to hear those complaints from day to day, to investigate them from time to time and to revise, as they think fit and proper, any of those schemes. As far as I am concerned in that work which is their responsibility, any amendments that they may think fit to suggest from time to time will be very carefully and sympathetically considered by me.

Mr. Davin

Is not that the function of the county manager, not of the council?

Mr. Smith

Wise county managers always have regard to the views of the members of the body that employs them.

Mr. Davin

Hear! hear!

Mr. Hickey

Would the Minister not consider that the differential rent system should be borne by the rate-payers of the city rather than being borne mainly by the tenants of the corporation houses?

Mr. Smith

We will consider every and any aspect of the differential rent system which Deputy Hickey may decide from time to put up.

Finally, I would like to refer to the criticism levelled by several Deputies here against the operation of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. I must admit that I have not had much time to see if the complaints that were made in regard to this matter were legitimate or otherwise. I suppose there was some reason for their being made here but, as far as I can find out, the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts worked reasonably smoothly since the passage of the 1950 Housing (Amendment) Act. Of course, one will find complaints arising here and there in a general sort of way. I am merely telling the House the experience of those who have watched the operations of these Acts, especially since the passage of the 1950 Housing Act.

I will consider later some of the statements that were made here and some of the cases that were cited. I would like to give the House and the country an assurance that if I find there are any grounds for the charges that are made, I will do my best to see that the difficulties are remedied.

I am grateful to my predecessor for the words of good wishes which he spoke to me in the office in which I have succeeded him.

Breanndán MacFheorais

I had intended raising this matter at a later stage, as I did not expect that the Minister would have finished so quickly. It is a matter which affects every Deputy in this House, one with which each Deputy had contact during the last election and during local elections—that is the method of compiling the register of electors. Frankly, I think the method is a bit loose; it does not ensure that every person over 21 years is included in the register. In America and in other countries every person, who in the ordinary course of events is eligible for a vote, registers. In this country at the present time it is the responsibility of the rate collectors to include in the register of electors those persons, men and women, who have attained the age of 21 years.

Unfortunately, the Minister has had the experience, as other Deputies and I also have had the experience, where there has been failure on the part of rate collectors—I shall not say maliciously—to ensure that the names of people who should be on the register are on it. I have had an experience in my own town where the occupants of six houses were left off the register. Again, I do not say that it was done deliberately, but I say that much more publicity could be given at the appropriate time—that is, between October and December—to the fact that the register of electors was being compiled. All qualified persons over 21 are supposed to have the duty, the responsibility and the honour of electing Deputies and, consequently, of electing a Government and the State Departments concerned—whether they be Radio Eireann, the Department of Local Government or the Department of Justice—ought to take the responsibility of giving publicity to the fact that a register is being compiled. I would suggest that a notice should be sent to the electors notifying them that they were included on the register, so that if, say, 90 per cent. of the people in a village or a street are notified that their names have been included, the 10 per cent. who have been left off will then make it their business to see that they also are included. At the present time the people who are charged with the responsibility of making sure that the register of electors is properly compiled are, in fact, the political Parties. That should not be the case and I would suggest to the Minister that he should try to tackle this problem and to devise some better method of compiling the register, so that we would not all have to encounter the grievances and difficulties with which we have to deal especially on the day of an election.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I should like to support the plea made to the Minister by Deputy Corish in regard to the compiling of the register. At present there appears to be a good deal of laxity and I would suggest that a penalty be imposed on any rate collector who fails knowingly in his duty in this regard. We have had such cases. People who should be on the register were not included due to the neglect of rate collectors.

Acting Chairman (Mr. M. O'Reilly)

We cannot have a debate on the matter now.

Mr. Davin

This is not a debating point. Perhaps the Minister would give an assurance to the House that the cottage purchase scheme will not be held up unduly and that it will be brought into operation as soon as possible?

Mr. Smith

I am afraid I cannot give the Deputy any definite information on that matter. It is one of the matters to which i have not had time to give consideration.

Mr. Davin

The Minister will look into it?

Mr. Smith

Certainly. So far as the compilation of the register is concerned, I can only say that my experience has been identical with that of the Deputies who have spoken. I do not know what we can do to rectify the matters complained of. While the system seems to be elaborate enough and, on the surface, appears to give sufficient protection, what Deputy Corish has stated is true, that it is left to the political Parties to see who are on the register. Unfortunately, the political Parties do not always see to it any more than the individuals themselves who are left off. I have seen villages where people on one side of the street were on the register and people on the other side were not. I do not know how these things can happen. I can only say that the matters complained of will be examined. If possible, some better system will be provided, but I cannot give an assurance on that head.

Mr. O'Hara

Like Deputy Corish, I was not present when the Minister started his reply. I should like if he would go into the question of the cost of obtaining loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. In my county I have got a number of complaints in regard to the exorbitant fees charged by the county solicitor for his services in connection with loans made under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. I understand that a borrower of £500 has to pay something like a fee of £20 to the solicitor who is already being paid by the rate-payers of the county. I should like the Minister to give me an assurance that he will go into this whole question of fees charged by county solicitors in matters of this kind.

Mr. Smith

I shall examine that matter as well as the other matters that have been raised here.

Vote put and agreed to.