Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 6

Election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle—Motion.

The Taoiseach

I move that:—

That Deputy Cormac Breslin be appointed Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Tairgim go gceapfar an Teachta Cormac Ó Breasláin ina Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Sa mbliain 1937 a céadtoghadh an Teachta Ó Breasláin chun na Dála agus tá sé ina chomhalta ó shoin i leith. Tá sé ina chathaoirleach ar Chomhairle Chontae Dhún na nGall agus bhí sé roinnt bhlianta ina chathaoirleach ar an gCoiste Gairm-Oideachais sa gContae chéanna.

Ina theannta sin, is Gaeilgeoir dúchais é. Beidh sé i ndon gnóthaí na Dála a stiúradh i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla. Is deimhin liom go stiúrfaidh sé gnóthaí an Tí go héifeachtach agus go dtiúrfaidh sé cóir agus cothrom do gach taobh agus do gach Teachta. Molaim don Dáil é cheapadh.

I am proposing that Deputy Cormac Breslin be elected by the Dáil as Leas-Cheann Comhairle. He has been in the Dáil since 1937. He has been Chairman of the Donegal County Council. For a number of years he was chairman of the vocational committee of that county. He is a native Irish speaker and would therefore be in a position to preside over the Dáil in relation to the functions of the Chair both in Irish and in English. I am satisfied that, if he is elected, he will do his duty in the Chair with fairness and justice to every side and every Deputy.

Mr. Fagan

I propose Deputy Alfred Byrne who has been a member of the Dáil since 1922 except for a period of two years when he was a member of the Seanad. For nine years he was Lord Mayor of Dublin and conducted the business of the city to the satisfaction of the citizens. He has been an alderman for close on 40 years. He has contested six elections and lost only one. The citizens of Dublin have expressed their opinion of him in no uncertain way. I am confident that he will give the same satisfaction presiding over the affairs of the Dáil as he gave to the citizens of Dublin when he was Lord Mayor.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I second the motion moved by Deputy Fagan. In asking the House to accept Deputy Alfred Byrne as Leas-Cheann Comhairle I am doing so in the full knowledge of the very fine record he holds. Since 1914 Deputy Alfred Byrne has represented the people of his native city continuously both in the British Parliament and in the Irish Parliament. For nine years he occupied the highest position in the City of Dublin during his term as Lord Mayor and has advised on and guided the business of the Dublin Corporation with full satisfaction to all. I believe he is suitable in every respect to fill the office of Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

It is true that he has not got a very full knowledge of Irish. I do not regard such a knowledge as an essential qualification for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The duty of

Leas-Cheann Comhairle has been discharged very efficiently on occasions by Deputies who do not possess a knowledge of Irish. Even though Deputy Alfred Byrne has not a knowledge of Irish, that lack will be more than compensated for by his wide experience and knowledge of procedure and of discharging the position of chairman in an efficient and impartial manner.

Practically every position to be filled to-day required that every candidate must have a knowledge of Irish. It is true that one of the signatories of the Proclamation of Easter Week had not a knowledge of Irish. It is also true that that proclamation was one of the most important, if not the most important step taken in the history of our country. Therefore, the fact that Deputy Alfred Byrne has not a full knowledge of Irish cannot cast any grave reflection on him. It is also true to say that during Deputy Byrne's schooldays Irish held neither the very high nor the very honoured position that it holds to-day.

I should like to point out that, so far as Deputy Byrne is concerned, no one can deny that he has done more than his share, not alone for the people of Dublin, since he had the honour of being first elected to represent them, but for the country in general, and his services have been appreciated by many men who were prominent in the national life. On one occasion, Deputy Byrne was written to by the late Michael Collins. On the 24th November, 1916, Micheal Collins, wrote to him:—

"We appreciate your humanitarian efforts and all you have done for the boys here. Best wishes and many thanks.—Michael Collins."

Why should we, on this side of the House, be ashamed to put forward for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle a man who was held in the highest esteem by the late Michael Collins? It is well that members of the House should know further that the late Right Rev. Monsignor O'Riordan, Rector of the Irish College in Rome, thanked Deputy Byrne—and this is on record— for his efforts when Irish students were threatened with conscription in August, 1917. At that time he wrote to Deputy Byrne:—

"I thank you very sincerely indeed for the very lively and effective interest you have taken in the position of Irish students. You certainly mean business when you undertake it."

I think a Deputy who has won the recognition of men like the late Michael Collins and a former rector of the Irish College in Rome certainly deserves the support and co-operation which we on this side propose to give to Deputy Byrne in his candidature for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I ask the House to accept this nomination because I believe that if there is one man who can carry out the duties efficiently and impartially it is Deputy Byrne. For that reason I recommend the House to elect Deputy Byrne as Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Captain Cowan

I should like to support the nomination of Deputy Breslin for this position, and I regret very much that there has been a second nomination. As I understand it, a rough and ready practice has grown up in this House, amounting almost to a precedent, that where the Ceann Comhairle belongs to one side of the House or is appointed from one side of the House, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is taken from another side.

Deputies

Oh, no.

Captain Cowan

It is a practice that has grown up, almost amounting to a precedent. I want the House to say that we should go a step further now in making it a precedent. Otherwise if we look to the future of this Parliament, we may find that the time will come when some Party will come in here with an over-all majority, when they can appoint a Ceann Comhairle and when they can also appoint by their majority a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Fagan

You will change that.

A Deputy

You will not be one of them then.

Captain Cowan

I think that would be a most undesirable position to arise.

Mr. Fagan

From Meath-Westmeath to Dublin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Fagan must restrain himself.

Mr. Fagan

I am sorry but I could not help it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan.

Mr. Fagan

The Gaelic Athletic Association in Mullingar.

Captain Cowan

Is this Deputy intoxicated by his own exuberance or by something else?

Mr. O. Flanagan

He has not been bought over, anyway.

Mr. Fagan

The Gaelic Athletic Association.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have warned Deputy Fagan that he will have to control himself.

Captain Cowan

I am putting it to the House, and particularly to the smaller Parties in the House, that they should consider what I am endeavouring to put before them, that it is desirable that, if the precedent I have mentioned has not already been created, we should go to-day a step nearer to the creation of that precedent and that where the Ceann Comhairle is drawn from one side of the House, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will be taken from the other side. If we appoint Deputy Breslin to the position, I am satisfied that we shall be helping to establish that precedent and that no matter how strong one Party may happen to be in future, there will be accepted the position that the Ceann Comhairle will come from one side of the House and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle from the other. For that reason I wish to support the nomination of Deputy Breslin.

Peadar Ó Duigneain

Is rud antábhactach ar fad é seo agus sílim go mba cheart go mbeadh Gaeilge ag an Teachta a bheas ina Leas-Cheann Comhairle anseo. Deirtear go bhfuil an Ghaeilge riachtanach ar fud na tíre ar fad; sí seo Dáil Éireann agus sílim ar a laghad go mba cheart go mbeadh muid i ndán a thaispeáint don tír go bhfuilmuid Gaelach. Tá Teachta ainmnithe agus chuala mé ón taobh eile nach bhfuil Gaeilge ar bith aige. Anois sílim féin mar Theachta a thagas as an nGaeltacht gur náireach an mhaise dúinne Teachta ar bith a chur sa gCathaoir, nó a thoghadh mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle, nuair nach bhfuil Gaeilge aige. Deirtear go bhfuilmuid ag ligint orainn go bhfuilmuid i bhfhábhar na Gaeilge ach taispeánaimís inniu go bhfuilmuid i bhfhábhar na Gaeilge. Deirtear nach bhfuil ann ach caint. Is féidir le chuile dhuine caint a dhéanamh ach nuair atá post tábhachtach le líonadh ba cheart ar a laghad go mbeadh muid chomh Gaelach is go líonfhadh muid le Gaeilgeoir é. Ba náireach an rud é go suífeadh duine ar bith sa gCathaoir sin gan Gaeilge a bheith aige agus mar sin iarraim ar na Teachtaí a mhol an Teachta Ó Broin tarraingt siar. Beidh mé ag breathnú ar na Teachtaí eile a bhfuil Gaeilge acu, má tá vóta ann, le feiceáil a bhfuil siad chomh Gaelach is a bhíonn siad ag leigint orthu.

O. Ó Flannagáin

Abair as Bearla é.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Tá ceist an Leas-Chinn Comhairle ós ar gcomhair anois. Tá an Ghaeilge le sábháil sa tír seo agus ba cheart don Tigh seo sampla a thabhairt le súil go leanfhaidh an tír an sampla úd. Sí an Ghaeilge cloch dubhshraith ár náisiúntachta. Tá mórán slithe lenár neamh-spleáchas a bhaint amach ach sí an teanga an t-arm is láidre atá againn chun ar náisiúntachta a chur i bhfeidhm. Thuig an Piarsach é; thuig daoine a chuaigh roimhe é agus tuigeann daoine san am i láthair gur ceann de na ceisteanna is tábhachtaí é atá againn inniu. Tá daoine nach cuireann suim in ár dteangain; tá daoine ann atá ag oibriú in aghaidh na teanga.

O. Ó Flannagáin

Níl sé sin ceart.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Tá sé ceart. Duine ar bith a thugann vóta sa Tigh seo inniu do Leas-Cheann Comhairle nach bhfuil Gaeilge aige, tá sé ag oibriú in aghaidh teangan na hÉireann.

O. Ó Flannagáin

Tá níos mó den teangain againn anois.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Deirim— agus ni chuirim fiacal ann go ndearna an Rialtas a chuaigh amach, an Rialtas a bhí anseo le trí bliana, rudaí in aghaidh cúis na Gaeilge. Cuireadh fógraí amach do Stát-sheirbhísigh.

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl aon bhaint aige sin leis an gceist atá ós ar gcomhair.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Tá ceist an Leas-Chinn Comhairle os ár gcomhair. Is ceist tábhachtach í agus sé mo bharúil sa go mba cheart Leas-Cheann Comhairle a bheith againn a bheadh abálta an Ghaeilge a thuiscint agus a labhairt agus molaim an Teachta Ó Breasláin. Is Gaeilgeoir dúchasach é; is Teachta Dála é le fada agus bheadh sé in ndán obair an Leas-Chinn Comhairle a dhéanamh.

Mr. MacBride

I regret that this matter was not discussed by the Leaders of the Parties on both sides of the House before these motions were put down. I feel that the appointment of a Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be by agreement on both sides of the House and, accordingly, that this matter should have been discussed before it came before the House. I fear that a bad precedent was created following the general election. The present Government side of the House decided, in order to secure an additional vote, not to propose the Ceann Comhairle.

A Deputy

That is not correct.

Mr. O. Flanagan

It is correct.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Mr. MacBride

It does, because I think it is one of the factors which have to be taken into consideration.

Captain Cowan

On a point of order. Is not the Ceann Comhairle elected by the unanimous decision of this House?

Mr. O. Flanagan

It was a mean, low, political trick typical of the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will give Deputy MacBride an opportunity of making it relevant, but so far I do not see that it is.

Mr. MacBride

As a result of the action of the Government in that matter, I consider that the Government have deprived themselves of the usual privilege of nominating the Ceann Comhairle from their side of the House and that, therefore, they are not entitled to come in at this stage in order to secure the appointment of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Boland)

I have long experience of this business. I remember that when we came in here in 1927 the Ceann Comhairle was recognised as a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party as they were then, and when it was proposed by the Government of the day to appoint a Leas-Cheann Comhairle years ago we understood that that was always going to be the practice and it has been up to now. At the time, we would not accept the person that the Government Party wanted and said that if we accepted anyone it would be one of our own choice. Then a Labour Deputy was put forward as Leas-Cheann Comhairle and subsequently another Deputy to whom we objected on the ground that he had not Irish. That was always our attitude and it is our attitude still. We thought that as the other side had nominated the Ceann Comhairle it automatically would be for this side of the House to nominate the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We were surprised that anyone was put up in opposition as there was no consultation. I would remind Deputy MacBride that it was the outgoing Taoiseach who proposed the Ceann Comhairle and not the Government.

Mr. MacBride

That was after Deputy Fahy, who had secured his return to this House, had declined to continue to act as Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. O. Flanagan

On the advice of the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss that matter on this motion.

Seán Ó Duinn

Is oth liom nach féidir liom morán Gaeilge a labhairt. Ní raibh an chaoi céanna agam í fhoghlaim agus a bhí ag daoine eile ach tá athas mór orm cuidiú leis an rún go n-ainmnítear an Teachta Ailfrid Ó Broin mar Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is a matter for regret that this issue should be discussed in this fashion. As one of the younger Deputies, I think that it is no great gaisce for Deputy Breslin, for whom I have great respect, or any Deputy who had an opportunity of learning the language, to have the language. It is a different thing, and I suggest it is an unfair thing, to make a comparison between a relatively young Deputy and a Deputy of the age and with the service of Deputy Byrne. Deputy Byrne, by virtue of his lifelong service to the people of the City of Dublin, of his status in the country generally, and of his competence and knowledge of matters relating to this House and chairmanship generally is well fitted to fill the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is a matter of regret that every Deputy has not got a fluent knowledge of Irish but, if any individual happens to have it, it is nothing to boast of. It is something we should all have and many of us have done our best to assimilate what we could of it. But there are many Deputies who left school long before it became compulsory or fashionable to learn Irish. I do not think any penalty should be imposed on such Deputies at this stage in our development because of what happened in their youth so many years ago. I have great pleasure, therefore, as one who knows a little bit of our beloved language, in supporting Deputy Byrne.

The Taoiseach

May I say a few words in reply to some things that have been said? First of all, this is not a question of penalties or comparisons. The question is whether the occupant of the Chair should be able to conduct the business of the House properly. If some Deputy, in accordance with his right, chooses to speak in Irish, if the occupant of the Chair does not know Irish, the Deputy can say anything he wants to say; he can be out of order as long as he chooses. The Chair cannot control him. The person in the Chair is not able to understand questions put to him in Irish. The national language is one of the two official languages and it is right that every Deputy who wants to speak it should be at liberty to do so, with the knowledge that what he is saying is being understood by the Chair. If he wants to make a point of order in Irish he is quite entitled to do it. Surely it would be wrong to have a Chairman who did not understand the language and who would compel a Deputy who did not want to do it—I am supposing—to turn from the Irish language and to speak in English?

That is the first thing so far as the language is concerned. The next is as regards precedent. The Minister for Justice has pointed out what the precedents have been; when the Government had the proposing of the Ceann Comhairle, it was left to the other side to choose the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. What has happened in this case? We did not propose anybody. We were then on the opposite side of the House. What was going to be the result of the vote on that occasion, I doubt if anybody knew for certain until it was given.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do not give us that hypocrisy.

The Taoiseach

I can speak for myself.(Interruptions.)

Mr. O. Flanagan

You bought them.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Flanagan had better not repeat that outside?

Mr. O'Higgins

Deputy Briscoe was well into it.

The Taoiseach

I can stand up to opposition just as well as the people on the opposite side, and I will not be prevented from saying what I want to say. I say that I did not know, and that nobody could have known for certain, until Deputies declared the side they were going to take, what the result would be.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Deputy Lemass knew the night before.

Mr. Corry

What about the man who was buying at 3 o'clock in the morning?

The Taoiseach

A question was raised with reference to the Ceann Comhairle. The Ceann Comhairle, as a matter of fact, was proposed by the outgoing Taoiseach. We put no pressure on him to propose the present occupant of the Chair as Ceann Comhairle, but when it was proposed we accepted it. I am perfectly certain it was proposed by the outgoing Taoiseach knowing the consequences that might arise from that. As it happened it had no effect on the result of the vote——

Mr. O. Flanagan

It had every effect.

The Taoiseach

——as far as deciding which side was going to be the Government.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Are you serious?

The Taoiseach

It has been suggested by Deputy MacBride that the former Ceann Comhairle did something that was wrong. The former Ceann Comhairle, to my knowledge, had asked to be relieved of the responsibility of the Chair some months ahead and was asked to retain the Chair until the election. That information was conveyed to the Government as well as to the Opposition at the time. When the election was over he did what he had intended doing, and that was to resign the Chair. It is now suggested that a person is relieved of going before his constituents at an election because he is about to occupy the Chair. That is not the fact. A man is relieved from the responsibility of a particular election because, during the preceding period, being in the Chair, he has not been in the position of representing his constituents and to argue from the body of the House in their behalf. It is because during the preceding period he has been unable to represent his constituents like other members that he is relieved of having to go through the activities of an election. There was nothing wrong whatsoever about Deputy Fahy's not going forward on that occasion; there was nothing wrong either about his voting. On a previous occasion, when the re-election of the outgoing Ceann Comhairle was opposed and he became an ordinary member, he voted——

Mr. Morrissey

Where is the relevancy there?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot see where the relevancy is here.

The Taoiseach

The relevancy to my mind—for you, Sir, to determine—is that it answers some of the objections made during the course of the speeches here.

Mr. Morrissey

Oh, no.

Mr. Davin

Tell us about 1932. What did you insist on then?

The Taoiseach

What did we insist on then?

Mr. Davin

Will you tell us?

General Mulcahy

On a point of order. The Chair is ruling certain matters out of order which, in fact, have been fully put before the House by the Taoiseach. Are Deputies, in the circumstances, not to be allowed to make as effective a comment on these matters as the Taoiseach has actually made?

Mr. G. Boland

Will the Taoiseach not be allowed to reply?

Mr. O'Higgins

Sit down you.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

These matters were partly raised by Deputy MacBride. I allowed Deputy MacBride to proceed a certain length in order to make himself relevant to the motion before the House. I prevented Deputy MacBride when he was going too far. I am allowing the Taoiseach to go as far as I think proper in order to enable him to reply to the statements made by Deputy MacBride, but no further. I suggest to the Taoiseach that he has now gone as far as I think it is desirable he should go in that matter.

General Mulcahy

On a further point of order. The statement of Deputy Cowan, it seemed to me, invited a whole discussion and if, in addition to the invitation by Deputy Cowan to open a whole discussion, the Taoiseach has been able to say as much as he has said, it seems to me you will have to extend a certain amount of latitude.

An Ceann Comhairle

The trouble about ruling whether a matter is in order or out of order is this, that the Chair never knows whether the matter is in order or out of order until it has been mentioned, and the Chair has no opportunity of control until that point has been reached.

Mr. S. Collins

May I ask for a ruling, arising out of this discussion? I should like to know whether or not the Chair has ruled that the question of precedent in the appointment of a Ceann Comhairle and a Leas-Cheann Comhairle has any relevance to the issue before the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled it has not.

Mr. S. Collins

Then why allow anyone to continue a discussion on it?

Mr. Davin

Will you allow the Taoiseach to tell us the history of the 1932 appointment?

Mr. McGrath

Keep your hair on.

The Taoiseach

We would like to know what the Deputy's suggestion is. The Deputy is splendid at hinting things, but if the Deputy would only say plainly what he hints at, we would know how to answer him.

Mr. Davin

I will.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is concluding the debate on the motion.

Mr. Morrissey

He has no right to conclude.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a motion, and the Dáil is not in Committee.

Mr. S. Collins

I intend to speak. I have a right to speak. The Taoiseach was not called upon to conclude; he merely intervened.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach moved a motion and the Standing Order provides that a Deputy who moves a motion will conclude the debate on it.

Mr. S. Collins

But there are two motions.

Mr. Morrissey

May I submit a point of order?

The Taoiseach

I did not intervene in the debate; I was called on by the Chair.

General Mulcahy

You were not.

Mr. S. Collins

You rose and asked permission to say a few words.

Mr. Morrissey

On a point of order. There are two motions before the House and both are being debated. I am speaking now entirely from recollection, but I suggest, with respect, that neither the mover of the first motion nor the mover of the second motion has a right in a matter of this kind to conclude, or to make a second speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

The mover of a motion in the Dáil has the right to reply.

Mr. Morrissey

Very well.

General Mulcahy

The Taoiseach rose to ask might he say a few words. We are all quite familiar with that formula in this House, and we have never known it to stop that.

An Ceann Comhairle

No Deputy offered himself. The Taoiseach rose, and I assumed that the Taoiseach rose to reply.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. I confidently trust in you, Sir, to reserve my right to speak on the motion proposed by Deputy Fagan and seconded by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, and lest you might be under any misapprehension through my failure, for want of agility, I should like to say that I desire to contribute to the debate, and to be seen as soon as your convenience will permit.

Mr. Boland

He wants to talk through his hat.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair called on the Taoiseach to conclude the debate.

General Mulcahy

Nobody heard you say that, Sir.

Mr. Morrissey

On a point of order. This is a serious matter.(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need for the Chair to say definitely, "The Taoiseach to conclude." The Taoiseach, as the mover of the motion, rose when no other Deputy offered himself to make a contribution to the debate. I definitely rule that the Taoiseach is concluding.

Mr. Morrissey

Will the Chair allow me to make a further submission? I submit that the Taoiseach may have the right to conclude on a motion which he has moved himself, but he has not the right to conclude the debate on a motion moved by Deputy Fagan. That is a right which Deputy Fagan holds equally with the Taoiseach or with any other member of the House.

The Taoiseach

Are the two motions not being discussed together?

Mr. Morrissey

On the point of order, I am making the submission that Deputy Fagan, or any other Deputy, is equal before the Standing Orders with the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will understand that a decision on the motion which I am going to put will decide whether there will be any motion at all before the House.

Mr. Morrissey

What I am putting to you, Sir, is this that Deputy Éamon de Valera, the Taoiseach, is being allowed to conclude not merely on a motion which he moved himself, but to conclude the debate, and that Deputy Fagan is being deprived of his right to conclude on his motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is entirely incorrect. The Taoiseach is getting no privilege that any other Deputy would not get.

Mr. Morrissey

That is what he is claiming.

An Ceann Comhairle

Well, he is not getting it. The Taoiseach is concluding the debate, and I am putting the motion.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. I am an Independent Deputy and I have as much right to be heard in this House as any member of the Government. A motion has been made by Deputy Fagan, an Independent Deputy. It has been seconded by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, an Independent Deputy. Common courtesy demands that, if the Taoiseach rises in this House and seeks to catch the Ceann Comhairle's eye, Deputies will naturally give way. I am claiming my right to intervene in the debate on the motion moved by Deputy Fagan and seconded by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, and I look to you, Sir, to protect that right.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not presume to be an authority on common courtesy. I do endeavour to know as much as I can of the Standing Orders, and the Standing Orders provide that when a Deputy moves a motion in the Dáil he has the right to reply. No other Deputy offered himself, and I called on the Taoiseach. It is the loss of other Deputies who wished to speak if they did not rise. If Deputies, through the operation of common courtesy, did not offer themselves to the Chair, instead of the Taoiseach, well that is not the business of the Chair. I am now ruling definitely that the Taoiseach is concluding the debate.

Mr. S. Collins

On a point of order. The present situation is that there are two motions before the House. One is proposed in the name of the Taoiseach and the other in the names of two Independent Deputies. Does your ruling now mean that the Chair of this House is ruling preferentially in favour of one Deputy who has the same standing as any other Deputy on a motion, and ruling that the motion standing in the names of Deputy Fagan and Deputy Oliver Flanagan, neither of whom has been asked to conclude——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will sit down. The Deputy has said that the Chair has made a preferential ruling which is a polite way of saying that the Chair has been partial. I cannot accept that from Deputy Collins and the Deputy will withdraw it.

Mr. S. Collins

I think you misunderstood me. What I said was are we to take it that it could be assumed to be a preferential ruling? If I said anything improper, I withdraw it. I am making a submission on the Standing Orders. There are two motions before the House. What we are asking now is, has the Ceann Comhairle ruled that one motion can be dealt with on a completely different basis from the other, and that the proposer of the motion in the name of Deputy Fagan will not be given an opportunity to conclude?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has already indicated that what will happen on this motion will rule whether or not there will be any motion before the House. I am putting the motion now.

Mr. Dillon

What motion?

An Ceann Comhairle

The motion in the name of the Taoiseach.

Mr. Fagan

On a point of order. I may be a bit dense. The Taoiseach got up and said on a point of explanation that he moved a definite motion. I did not understand that the Taoiseach was going to finish, and I obeyed the ruling. There was a complete misunderstanding. I am not representing anything, Irish or English. Irish was not taught when I was at school. I am putting Deputy Alfred Byrne forward. I am doing so because the young people of this generation want to get a different atmosphere altogether from what they have had.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I want to ask the Taoiseach this, if, as an act of common courtesy, he would now withdraw?(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Higgins

No, we want our rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will allow Deputy Fagan to reply if he wishes.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. This is one of the few remaining Legislatures in the world where individual Deputies' rights are recognised. I respectfully submit that I have as sacrosanct a right as any other Deputy to intervene in an orderly way in the debate on the motion before the House. I am asking that right now. I want to intervene within the strict rules of order in the debate which has been proceeding in my presence during the last quarter of an hour on the motion of Deputy Fagan and Deputy Oliver Flanagan.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should have offered himself before the Chair called on the Taoiseach.

Mr. Dillon

I want respectfully to submit that no Deputy of 20 years' experience of this House, such as I have, could ever imagine that the Taoiseach would be called upon to wind up on the motion of Deputy Fagan.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Fagan can reply on his own motion.

Mr. Dillon

I want to intervene on this motion before Deputy Fagan concludes.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot help that. The Chair is calling on Deputy Fagan, and on no other Deputy.

Mr. Dillon

I am asking the Chair to allow me to intervene. Will the Chair accept a motion for the Adjournment of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not. Deputy Fagan to conclude on his own motion.

General Mulcahy

The Taoiseach tricked the House.

The Taoiseach

That is an untruth. It would take a Deputy Mulcahy to make that statement.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I will ask you to take a motion to adjourn the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Fagan to conclude on his own motion.

Mr. Dillon

I have offered myself twice——

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Dillon persists I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Dillon

For asking to exercise my right to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Dillon persists I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Dillon

The right of an Independent Deputy to speak in this House——

Mr. Lemass

At the right time——

Mr. Dillon

——is a stabiliser of liberty in this country. I claim that right under those Standing Orders.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have told Deputy Dillon that if he offered himself before I called on the Taoiseach I would have freely and willingly called on him. I cannot allow him to say that the Chair has been partial. Deputy Dillon will resume his seat.

Mr. Dillon

I asked leave to intervene on the motion moved by Deputy Fagan and seconded by Deputy Flanagan and I asked you to see and to hear me before your attention was drawn by Deputy Fagan. I now ask my right to intervene in that discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am asking Deputy Fagan to conclude now and I will hear no further points of order.

Mr. Dillon

I demand my right to be heard.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dillon has his remedy, if he thinks my ruling is incorrect.

Mr. Dillon

I respectfully submit that my remedy is to stand here and claim to be heard.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to ask the Deputy to leave the House.

Mr. Dillon

If the Ceann Comhairle considers that I have no claim to be heard in Dáil Éireann after 20 years' service here, then I must insist on my rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

I regret that I have to name Deputy Dillon for disobeying the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Dillon

I intend to stand my ground, and I claim my rights.

Mr. Norton

On a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no point of order. Deputy Norton will resume his seat.

Deputy MacBride rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy MacBride will resume his seat. There are no points of order.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Derrig)

"Chair", "Chair".

Mr. S. Collins

Do you hear the Minister for Lands. He is like a jackdaw —"Chair", "Chair".

General Mulcahy

The Taoiseach has tricked the House.

Mr. O. Flanagan

He has tricked the country.