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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 12

Adjournment Debate—Cork Fertiliser Project.

While I am raising this matter here to-night on the Adjournment of the House, I am doing so because there seems to be some mix up between the question I had down, No. 113, and the answer from the Minister. Embodied in the question is the word "investigate", whereas the reply given by the Minister stated that "development" would have to be by private enterprise. The difference between us may be only in one word, but that difference can mean an awful lot. The investigation into this whole matter is something that will give definite information as to the possibility of such a project being carried out. That is what I am seeking now.

I know that in the areas surrounding Passage West there are large deposits of limestone. That is one advantage at the start. The Minister says the area is well supplied with ground limestone—yet it is not the supply of a restricted area that I had in mind. Coupled with the availability of such a supply, there is another very important point. In Cork Harbour—and Passage West is a town on the harbour—there are millions of tons of sea mud, mud that has to be removed from that harbour every year by the Cork Harbour Board at great expense. In olden times, before modern ideas of fertilisers came into being, the farmers on at least the western and southern sides of Cork Harbour used this sea mud for top dressing their land, with very good results. That brings to mind the possibility that, if we were able to utilise the enormous amount of such material at hand free of all charge, mixing it with limestone and considering the possibility of importing phosphates, we may then be able to put on the market a fertiliser of good quality at a cheap price. In doing so, we would be doing something for Passage West area by giving employment, something that is of great importance there.

I need not say that I have not raised this question here to-night simply because the Minister is in office for a few weeks. The case of Passage West as regards employment has existed, not for three weeks or for three years but for 30 years. I believe that if this investigation were carried out we could be in a position to tell our Irish people who may be willing to invest money that there is a good possibility of their getting a financial return by investing it in such a project. In this area the people are not at present in a position financially to undertake such an investigation themselves. There are experts coming to this country advising us about the possibility of improvements in different phases of life here, telling us about the possibility of mineral development and so on; and I cannot see why it is that the responsible Department could not investigate this and give the results of such investigation to the public. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to understand that the whole point in this question has not any connection with the answer he gave. This is a matter of "investigation". I know that the Minister would naturally be interested from his own personal point of view in having the investigation carried out; and I appreciate his difficulty, as I appreciated the difficulty of his predecessor. I may say here that, a matter of a few weeks before the Dáil broke up for the general election, I had a private discussion with the Minister at that time and pointed out to him the necessity for such an investigation.

It is of no use to say that the development must be left to private concerns. That attitude has been the cause, in some parts of Ireland, of a large amount of unemployment and of the fact that we have still so many backward areas. I know there is a firm in Cork City interested in the manufacture of these fertilisers. It is of no use to us to ask such a firm to investigate the possibilities of development in the lower harbour for such an important project as this, as that is the old system of holding the markets for themselves. If we are not willing, for such an important project as this, to break away from that system whereby the markets have been left to a small number of firms, it means that, as well as denying the farmer the possibility of a good quality fertiliser, as well as denying the right of people to get work in their own districts—and unfortunately Passage West could be considered for the last 30 years as a ghost-town—we are adopting the system of leaving it to private enterprise and we are just passing the buck to someone else.

I want the Minister to understand clearly that there is no political idea behind this question to-night. It is simply the difference of the approach to his answer from the approach to the question. He has stated that the admixture of these important elements, that is, the limestone and sea mud available locally, with modern phosphates, should be a matter of private concern. This town, Passage West, is situated well in the entrance of Cork Harbour, where they have every facility for the importation of phosphates, with all the conveniences at hand. Unfortunately, the only handicap is finance. It is a sad reflection that we may have to admit that we are prepared to let all these possibilities go by and we are not willing to have even an investigation by an important Department of State into the possibility of producing such an important item for the market and giving employment.

I do not wish to delay either the House or the Minister. I want him clearly to understand that all I am asking in this question is about the matter of investigation. Even at this stage perhaps he could say that he is willing to have such an investigation carried out, combining the three important factors—local limestone, the enormous and unlimited amount of sea mud in the Cork Harbour area and imported phosphates. I may mention that the limestone quality of the hinterland of Cork is such that the mud in the area to which I refer contains many important and valuable elements. Proof of this was established recently at Cork on an analysis. Perhaps, the Minister even now can state his willingness to have the investigation carried out in relation to the limestone, the unlimited quantity of sea mud available and the possibility of having these mixed with imported phosphates. I am not asking the Minister to set up an industry there. I know that even with the greatest enthusiasm in the world the Minister could hardly do that.

If the investigation is carried out, a report published, and the results of such an important investigation put on the market, then I believe there are people in this country—God knows it is a sad thing to think that there is a large number of people who find it more suitable to invest their money in foreign concerns and in foreign countries—who will definitely go on with this important project, provided they get a fair and just return for any capital they may invest. I would again ask the Minister to realise the importance of the investigation. That is what the question is based upon.

I should like to support Deputy Desmond as far as his advocating of the development of a ground limestone industry in the Passage area is concerned. I am satisfied that there are adequate deposits of lime in that area, and I thoroughly agree with everything Deputy Desmond has said about the considerable amount of unemployment that exists in that area.

As far as the slob mud is concerned, I think that the Department of Agriculture have at the moment undertaken to carry out certain experiments. I cannot see any reference to it in the question, but I understand that Dr. Walsh is experimenting at the moment with six tons of it. I do not want to delay the House, but I do want to support the views put forward by Deputy Desmond that this limestone is available at Passage West. There is a considerable amount of unemployment in that area. Deputy Desmond has described the town as a "ghost" town. It is almost a deserted village now, even though it was a big and prosperous town at one time. If a limestone industry could be established there it would be in a very convenient site suitable in very many ways, and it would give this very much needed employment.

It is a pity that Deputy Desmond, when he was putting down the question, did not mention sea mud, because I understood, when I was asked the question, that it dealt with phosphates or lime. We know there are deposits of limestone in the place referred to by Deputy Desmond. We also know that there is not a sufficient number of plants in the country at the present time. We know that we have two plants in that particular area which should be sufficient to cater for the needs of the people there. You have the Buttevant and Aherla plants. The Buttevant plant, which is run by the Irish Sugar Company, is producing more than there is a demand for and there is not sufficient demand to keep it going. If there was a further demand the plant would supply the needs of the people there. Cork, I might say, is well supplied with limestone plants and there are parts of the country not so well supplied.

As regards the two points raised, one, in connection with unemployment, was not mentioned in the question.

Mr. Walsh

It was incidentally mentioned. As far as the unemployment question went, I regarded it as being in connection with the production of ground limestone.

That is not so.

Mr. Walsh

And there would be a mixture then of phosphates, but the Deputy's contention is that it should be related to the mixture of this mud with ground limestone.

The mud taken from the sea is of very little value from a manurial point of view. It has been analysed. If the farmers are induced to put out 30 to 40 tons to the acre, and if they are able to get an equally good fertiliser in four bags, they will not use the former.

The Minister should not condemn it.

Mr. Walsh

I am not condemning it. That is the position having regard to the analysis. You must have some regard for its value. If the man who is going to use it on the farm is able to get an equally good fertiliser in a few bags he will use that.

We should wait until we get the result of the experiment.

Mr. Walsh

It is not in any condemnation of it that I say that. You have the same type of mud in other parts of the country. That is a factual statement regarding it so far as I know. If we are to mix phosphates with lime, then you are going to face very great difficulties, for if you mix ground limestone with fertiliser it may not suit the farmer, because you may have a farmer who will need limestone but who will not need phosphates. The farmer may require two tons of limestone to the acre, but he may want only four or five cwt. of fertiliser. That will not be an economic proposition for anybody. We have to import phosphates, as we do not produce them ourselves, but if we mix them with ground limestone there may be nobody who will either need or buy them.

As far as limestone itself is concerned, every inducement is held out to farmers to use it. There is a good subsidy for it, running into thousands of pounds. The unfortunate thing about it is that our farmers are not using enough of it. Cork is amply supplied with ground limestone. Deputy Lehane asked that the mud should not be damned until such time as it is analysed. I am not damning it. If the mud has any fertiliser value it can be used. We are anxious to provide all the fertilisers we can. We have to import all our fertilisers. Certainly, if we are able to produce fertilisers at home we will use them to the fullest extent and every effort will be given by the Department to have them produced. The mud mentioned may or may not be good manure. So far as the question itself is concerned, I did not think that, as put down, it indicated that I was to answer anything in connection with sea mud.

We need have had no adjournment debate to-night to keep the House for the few extra minutes. As I pointed out we have to import the rock phosphates. You cannot mix super-phosphates with lime and neither can you mix it with basic slag; the only thing you can mix is rock phosphate. The only thing is that you cannot have both side by side because certain farmers need lime and certain farmers need phosphates.

You can have an admixture of both which would be beneficial.

Mr. Walsh

It would not be economic from any point of view to have an admixture. That is the point. Many of the commercial firms which grind limestone would not for a moment countenance admixing it because of the difficulty of spreading it for one thing, the difficulty of getting farmers to buy the admixture and thirdly the principal difficulty which is its necessity to the farmers themselves and the big amount of lime you would have to use to a small amount of phosphate.

If there is anything in the idea of sea mud, it is being investigated. No decision has been made but if there is anything in the idea it will certainly be pursued to the fullest possible extent and if it is good the farmers will be advised. I do not know that I have any more information. If the Deputy had asked me a question about sea mud I could have given him the answer I am giving him now.

I am sorry that the Minister was in doubt and I will be satisfied if the results of the analysis are such that the Minister will investigate further.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on July 19th, 1951.

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