Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 1951

Vol. 128 No. 5

Grain Storage (Loans) Bill, 1951—Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of this Bill is to enable loans to be advanced, up to a maximum of £2,500,000 for the erection and equipment of grain storage. As the Bill is short and simple, a detailed comment on each section is hardly necessary. It may, however, be of assistance to the Deputies if I give a general outline of the storage position.

The storage problems with which we are confronted to-day are mainly wartime and post-war developments. In pre-war years grain imports and, in particular, wheat and maize imports, were arranged on a hand-to-mouth basis and millers and grain merchants in effect used ships' bottoms as storage. As a result of these two factors it was not found necessary to provide storage capacity for more than five or six weeks' grain requirements.

The position has changed materially since 1939. We have now to cope with a very substantial harvest of Irish wheat, practically all of which is delivered to the flour mills within the first three months of the cereal year commencing on the 1st September. In addition imported wheat and maize, purchased by a centralised buying organisation, are now carried in ships of up to 10,000 tons burden and coastwise trans-shipment from Liverpool and other large ports has ceased for all practical purposes. During the war years and since we have had to grapple with recurring annual storage difficulties and the need for improving and extending our storage facilities has long been recognised. My predecessor in office directed that steps should be taken to close the storage gap and I think it would be correct for me to say that the present Bill is on such lines as to commend it to all sections of the House.

The Government would naturally prefer that the provision and equipment of grain storage should be undertaken entirely by the private enterprise of those firms which have an intimate knowledge of the trade. It is recognised, however, that the very high level of building costs may render it difficult for some of the concerns to undertake this work. As an instance of the present inflated level of storage costs, I might mention that a concrete silo which could be erected pre-war at a cost of approximately £6 a ton now costs upwards to £20 a ton, depending on location. The cost of grain stores as distinct from silos has also increased proportionately and in some cases is in the neighbourhood of £10 per ton. The Government has therefore decided to come to the assistance of private enterprises by granting loans for the erection, improvement and equipment of grain stores and silos.

It is intended that the loans will cover a very substantial portion of the capital costs involved in each case, but generally business interests will be expected to contribute some portion of the cost from their own resources. The loans will be granted on as favourable terms as possible both as regards the rate of interest and the length of the repayment period.

What I have said above in regard to storage applies with equal force, in the case of Irish wheat, to drying facilities and loans will also be advanced for the installation of drying facilities both in old and in new stores.

While our overall grain storage capacity falls short of requirements, the deficiency is particularly acute in the case of wheat storage. It is intended, therefore, to concentrate, in the first instance, on the provision of additional wheat storage so as to enable us to handle without difficulty our current wheat requirements and if possible build up a substantial wheat reserve. When this problem has been disposed of the question of storage for other grains will receive attention.

During the course of the present year the milling inspectorate of my Department has carried out a comprehensive survey of grain storage as a result of which we have available up-to-date information on the subject. The concerns surveyed included flour mills, wheat dealers, wheat agents, seed wheat assemblers, maltsters and general grain merchants. Expressed in round figures, the total capacity surveyed amounted to 615,000 tons. As far as could be estimated the amount available for the long-term storage of millable wheat amounted to 380,000 tons, but this figure is subject to qualification in so far as comparatively few grain stores are entirely reserved and available for wheat. Grains other than wheat compete for the limited accommodation available at all stores except those located at flour mills. At first sight it might appear that, even subject to this qualification, our storage accommodation available for wheat, viz., 380,000 tons, is ample, having regard to the fact that our annual requirements of millable wheat based on current flour deliveries are in the region of 450,000 tons.

Mr. Sweetman

Has it not gone up considerably beyond that?

Mr. Walsh

450,000 tons are our total requirements of wheat.

Mr. Sweetman

Has it not gone up to 480,000 tons?

Mr. Walsh

It may vary but 450,000 tons is the generally accepted figure. Any such conclusion would, however, be mistaken. A substantial proportion of the storage in question is unsuitable and uneconomic and is only used for wheat storage because we have no alternative. Broadly speaking, all storage which is not located either at the flour mills or at portal silos is either unsuitable or uneconomic for wheat storage. This applies particularly in the case of Irish wheat because storage at outside stores usually involves the drying of Irish wheat at a place other than at the flour mill. The drying of Irish wheat is a preliminary and a fundamental process in the manufacture of flour and it is essential that it should be under the control of the flour millers, who are responsible to the appropriate Department for the quality of the flour produced. Outside stores are generally uneconomic because in many cases they are too small, lack proper intake and discharge facilities, involve double and, in some cases, even treble handling of wheat, etc. The additional storage and handling charges incurred during the present enforced use of these premises inflate milling costs and thereby add to the present burden of the flour subsidy. It is desirable, if not indeed necessary, that our present dependence on these stores should be terminated as soon as possible.

Of the total storage nominally available for wheat, viz., 380,000 tons, grade A storage amounts to 205,000 tons. Grade A storage might be defined as storage which in the case of the flour mills is economically and mechanically linked with the milling plant, and in the case of portal silos, storage which is economically linked with ocean cargo discharge. This figure of 205,000 tons is a maximum figure. It includes some floor storage at mills which might properly be classified as sub-grade A storage, and furthermore, it assumes that the three silos at Dublin, Cork and Waterford, are fully available for wheat. This latter assumption may not be correct at all times, but it is difficult to assess the extent to which these silos will be used for grains other than wheat.

Our main efforts will be directed towards improving and expanding our grade A storage. Many of the 36 flour mills already have adequate grade A storage, but 25 have storage capacity for less than 50 per cent. of their licensed wheat quotas. The flour and bread inquiry which examined this matter recommended as follows:—

"Steps should be taken to ensure that each licensed miller makes provision for the drying of native wheat and the storage of both imported and native wheat in the most efficient and economical manner, up to at least 50 per cent. of his licensed milling quota."

In view of the changed conditions since milling licences were first issued in 1933, it is not unreasonable to expect the flour mills to make available storage accommodation equivalent to 50 per cent. of their quotas. Some mills are already undertaking, on their own initiative, the extension of their storage facilities, and it is hoped that the offer of loans will induce others to follow their example. Discussions have already taken place with representatives of the flour mills on this matter, and while it is recognised that there are difficulties, particularly in relation to the operation of the present profit control of the industry, it is hoped that all mills which are deficient in storage will take steps to increase their storage capacity. If not, the Government may be compelled to consider other means of ensuring that the flour mills play their part in closing the storage gap.

As regards portal silos, the new silos which are being erected in Cork and the recent installation of pneumatic discharge at that port represent a welcome easement of the position. There is still, however, a very considerable leeway to be made good, particularly in the Port of Dublin. Our other ports are not equipped for the accommodation of the largest grain ships and it is necessary to divert an unduly large proportion of our total grain imports to Dublin, with the result that the silo in that port, with a capacity of 37,000 tons, is entirely inadequate to meet the demands on it. In recent years we have had to resort to many expedients in order to overcome the difficulties occasioned by the bottleneck in the Dublin Port. The need for additional portal accommodation is most evident in Dublin and we are at present in negotiation with the owners of the silo for the erection of a new silo with a capacity of 50,000 tons, to be built alongside the present silo. This extension should enable us to handle without difficulty the grain imports at Dublin and at the same time should provide some much-needed holding storage.

As I have already stated, our deficiency in grain storage has prevented us from building up adequate wheat reserves. Our objective is not alone the elimination of the many difficulties which confront us in the handling of our current wheat requirements, but also the provision of storage to accommodate a substantial reserve of imported wheat—if possible amounting to one year's requirements—which can be put at something less than 200,000 tons. Our annual wheat user is now running at the rate of 450,000 tons.

While the maximum amount in stock at any given moment depends on the amount of the native harvest, it has never exceeded 275,000 tons and might safely be put at 250,000 tons. In order to cope fully with our current wheat stocks, we would, of course, require storage for more than 250,000 tons, as it is necessary for many reasons to have a margin for safety. The storage required to accommodate current stocks, after allowing a margin for safety, together with one year's reserves of imported wheat, might be put at, approximately, 450,000 tons. Our grade A wheat storage amounts to 205,000 tons, and there is a further 40,000 tons in course of erection, so that the prospective total amounts to 245,000 tons. Our net requirements of new grade A storage can, therefore, be put at 200,000 tons.

While a maximum of £2,500,000 has been placed on the loans which may be advanced under this Bill, it is not possible at this stage to indicate with any degree of certainty whether this amount will be sufficient to finance the provision of the additional storage needed. The amount advanced will depend on the extent to which private enterprises avail themselves of the facilities offered, the particular types of storage erected and the proportion which the loans advanced will bear to the total costs. If in the light of developments it appears that the limit now proposed, viz., £2,500,000, is too low it may be necessary to increase the provision in an amending Bill.

In view of the purpose of the Bill I am confident that the House will readily accept it.

Mr. Morrissey

I welcome this Bill, belated as it is. It is the type of Bill, of course, that we should have got in this House at least 15 or 18 years ago. I want to say at the outset that in my opinion it is not going to solve the problem. The Minister has given to the House a lot of figures none of which he is very sure of, none of which I think he can be very sure of. I do not think he is prepared to be dog matic about them and say: "This is X number tons of storage we require and this is X number we have," but it did emerge from the many figures that our requirements of grade A storage must be double what we have at the moment. This Bill is not going to get us that and the Minister might as well make up his mind to it. That in itself does not condemn the Bill; it is a start, belated as it is, and it is a start in the right direction. If you like, it is a continuation of what the Minister's predecessor was working on and had in mind.

The Minister has very truly stated that the lack of storage, particularly the lack of economic storage, has had a substantial, I think a very substantial, effect on the price of the finished article. What the Minister did not refer to, although I am quite sure he was aware of it before he ever became Minister, was the dead loss of good native grown wheat because of the lack of accommodation in the way of drying and storage facilities. I have very personal knowledge of cases—I have seen cases—where green wheat which could not be dried and stored, because drying and storing facilities were not available, became almost entirely useless. It was almost a dead loss. You would want to get a fork to pick it out of some of the sacks. Let me relate what happens.

In recent years a practice has grown up, as Deputies know, whereby the farmer threshes his wheat into the sacks and very often at the same time the sacks are loaded on to the assemblers' lorries. They reach the local assembler, and it is quite on the cards that his drying and storage facilities are completely filled. At the same moment—this has happened over and over again; it happens every year —there is a message to the local assemblers from the millers to stop all further deliveries for three days, six days, or even a fortnight because their storage has been choked up. That green wheat is then left lying there.

Any practical farmer in this House knows quite well what is going to happen to green wheat which has been sacked and left there, particularly if you have bad weather, such as we had last year. I would venture to say that the losses, apart altogether from the increase in the price of flour, as a result of the antiquated method we have of dealing with wheat here would run into considerably more than the sum which the Minister has mentioned in the Bill. The losses in most cases had to be borne by the farmer because very often when the wheat was taken and rebushelled he was paid on a lower bushelling than his original samples showed.

Let me get on to another aspect. The mills have not sufficient storage or drying facilities to deal with the inflow in any normal year of native wheat. Some assemblers have made very praiseworthy efforts and some of them have sunk considerable sums of money to increase their storage and to acquire drying plants. Look at the costly and wasteful way we have of dealing with it. The lorry load—the 100 barrels of green wheat—is brought from the farm to the local assembly, where it is unloaded. The following morning it is tipped out of the sacks, put on the elevator, and sent to the kilns for drying—or, if not for kiln-drying, for other drying. Then it has all to be resacked and reloaded, taken by lorry to the local railway station, unloaded from the lorry and put on the train to be taken to the mill, where it must be unloaded again. All that labour costs a considerable sum of money.

I wish to be very brief and only to touch on the general points in connection with green wheat. When the Minister talks about 615,000 tons, or about 380,000 tons or about 205,000 tons of grade A storage being in existence in this country, frankly, I do not believe it. I am not suggesting that the Minister is trying to mislead the House. I know he has the figures before him and that he is putting them before the House for what they are worth. No other storage but grade A storage will be economic and we have got to aim at it. It is obvious from the figures which the Minister has given us that we must get, as soon as we possibly can, another 200,000 tons of grade A storage. I am afraid that this Bill will not get it.

I want to deal with this matter in a more general way. Wheat storage is the most important and the most vital. Next, in my opinion, comes storage for fertilisers Some people, perhaps, might even put fertilisers before wheat. On the Fifth Stage of the Bill which has just been passed by the House, the Minister for Industry and Commerce talked about storage for fertilisers. I do not want to dwell now on the acrimonious debate which has been going on for weeks and weeks on the question of fertilisers. That Bill has been passed and I do not want it brought in now, by anybody who has the interests of this Bill at heart, to confuse the present issue. Deputies on both sides of the House are anxious that the maximum amount of fertilisers will be available in this country at the lowest possible price. I am told that the reason why we have not more fertilisers available here at a lower price is that we had not adequate storage in the country to house them. I do not accept that.

Mr. Hickey

It is true.

Mr. Morrissey

It is true of Cork City, of Dublin—perhaps of Waterford and perhaps of Limerick. But right round the coast of this country we have harbours where there are buildings that could be used to store the fertilisers. I know some of them in the West. I have been in them during the past 12 months.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not open the question of fertilisers now.

Mr. Morrissey

I said that I did not wish to go into the controversy about fertilisers. I am talking about storage. I take it that in this Bill we are talking about storage in general and that it is not confined to wheat storage. I have something to say which may surprise Deputies. A couple of years ago, when I was Minister for Industry and Commerce, we tried to get additional stocks at least of essentials because the international situation at the time looked bad. I was almost dumb-founded when I was informed that we could not bring in the quantity of tea I wanted brought in because there was nowhere to store it. It is not a question of wheat storage or of fertiliser storage. We are told that there is enough storage for only from a 12 months' to a two years' supply of tea in this country. Is there a Deputy in this House from any town in rural Ireland who does not know that throughout this country we have very substantial buildings which would be ideal for this purpose? It is true that they may require some reconstruction or repairs. There are a fair number of old poorhouse buildings in this country. These buildings have big, long wards and good floors. For years past a large number of them have been left there to decay. I do not say for a moment that that sort of storage would be the most economic sort of storage, but some storage is better than no storage at all. I should like to see either wheat, tea or fertilisers—and preferably fertilisers—put into these stores. It may cost more now to do so than it might have cost last year or the year before to put them into some of the nation's old buildings——

Mr. MacCarthy

Some of the old gaols.

Mr. Morrissey

Exactly. I am glad to say that we have less use for the old gaols and for the new gaols to-day than we have had for perhaps a century. If, a few years ago, we could have availed of the storage in these buildings, the supplies would have been infinitely cheaper than what we have to pay for them now.

I do not want to make any difficulties and I want to be as helpful as I can because this is a vital matter for the people of this country. It is something that all of us in this House should desire to see resolved at the earliest possible moment. It is possible that I have handled as much wheat as most members of this House—thousands or tens of thousands of barrels of it almost every year—and I know the tremendous losses that are liable to occur. I know the additional costs placed on farmers—apart altogether from the additional costs on the flour and bread ultimately made from the wheat. I know that we have not enough storage even for tea. We had not enough storage for oils, petrol, and so forth, but that position has been improved considerably. It is had enough to be vulnerable in respect of the storage of goods which we are importing but surely it is much worse not to have enough storage for the goods which we produce at home.

I have often wondered what our position during the past ten or 12 years would have been if we had been able to get our people to grow something approaching our full requirements of wheat. The losses of wheat in this country would have been very serious because we are not in a proper position to handle even the present amount of wheat which is produced in the country. I can only wish the Minister well and I can only hope that advantage will be taken of the loans which will be made available when this Bill becomes law. As far as I am concerned—and I think I can speak for all my colleagues on this side of the House—we are anxious to be helpful in this matter and will be as helpful as we can possibly be.

Mr. Cogan

This is, perhaps, one of the most important Bills that have been introduced recently and certainly one of the most useful. Its utility cannot be denied when we consider the kind of climate which we enjoy or endure. Recently an American visitor who was being shown over this country said: "You have a swell country here, if only you put a roof on it." Everything we produce—whether grain or turf or anything else—is exposed to complete ruin and loss as a result of the climate. We have to provide against that. I visited one farm last week and I happened to compliment the farmer on the extensive haggard which he possessed. He had a very extensive rick of straw, which showed a very great effort during the year and a great amount of work. He told me he had 80 barrels of wheat still lying on his hands a month after it was threshed. That is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs and it is to be hoped that this Bill will go some distance towards ending it.

We should never be satisfied until we have sufficient storage accommodation for all the wheat we produce. Not only that, but we should have sufficient drying facilities to be able to ensure that all the wheat grown in this country will be dried within one week after its harvesting. It is unknown what amount of loss has been suffered by farmers, grain merchants and the country generally as a result of damage to grain. I suppose it is unknown to the general public what amount of damage has been done to wheat with, as a consequence, an inferior quality of flour and bread, as a result of the wheat not being dried sufficiently or dried quickly enough to be in first class condition. There is not very much advantage in drying wheat after it has heated in sacks, after it has fermented and is becoming mouldy. That will make inferior flour and bread and the unfortunate consumer will have to suffer as a result. There is no doubt that wheat which has been damaged in the course of drying or before it is dried is gravely injurious to health. If this Bill achieves its purpose, it will have gone a long way to solve a very grave national problem.

If we had been as wise ten or 20 years ago as we are to-day, we would have solved it at far less cost in those days. The cost of building and roofing materials is very high to-day but we have to face that problem. There is no absolute security that building costs will go down in the near future, so we must face the problem, even though it involves considerable expenditure in trying to solve it. I was impressed by the Minister's statement that he is relying on the millers, in the main, to provide this accommodation. Another point was the advantage of having the wheat dried by the miller or in close proximity to the mill. At the same time, there are large areas in the country where you have not got the flour mill convenient and where there are merchants who could undertake this work efficiently. If they are prepared to do it efficiently, providing drying facilities and storage, I do not see any great reason why they should not be allowed to do so. It may be said that taking the wheat in to the local merchant and retransferring it to the mill would involve additional loading, etc. I suppose that is true, but the big problem is to get the wheat dried as quickly as possible after it has been harvested, and if there is a drying store in a district, centrally situated in a local town or village, there is no great reason why it should not be able to do this work efficiently. The wheat might have to be transferred again to the mill but there again the main additional labour involved would be the labour of filling it up. We all know that considerable economies can be effected there by the use of mechanical means and the time needed can be shortened very much. I think there is much in that point, that we should concentrate on the drying facilities that we attach to the mill.

There is another problem that does arise to a certain extent in regard to the whole question of drying wheat and storing it. It is not always easy to know exactly in advance the exact amount of wheat that may be put into a certain mill or store in a particular week or month. The harvesting operations are confined to one or two weeks, and it is a time of intense rush. It would be an advantage if each merchant could know exactly the amount of wheat he was going to receive at his store. Then he would be able to make all possible provision, and if space were short he could make provision elsewhere. That is why I have suggested that wheat should be grown under contract in the same way as beet, so that preliminary arrangements could be made for its collection, drying and storage. There is a lot to be said for that inasmuch as it would make for efficiency in the handling of the crop. In addition—though it may not be relevant to this—in this Bill we are providing £2,000,000 with a view to securing better storage and drying facilities, and it would not be any harm if we provided by some other legislation a similar loan to ensure that farmers would have additional supplies of fertilisers for their wheat, so that they could obtain it on a credit scheme and thereby increase their yield per acre. That could be embodied in a system under which wheat would be grown by contract.

We must organise this whole question of the production, collection and storage of wheat better than we have done in the past. We must not continue wheat growing on the assumption that every year will be an exceptionally fine year. As a matter of fact, I suppose we have a wet harvest almost every three or four years, and we have to make adequate provision for that wet and unfavourable harvest. The suggestions I make would, I think, help us towards solving that problem.

It is true that farmers, as a result of high labour costs and other difficulties, have been inclined in recent years to turn more and more to the combined harvester for the harvesting and threshing of wheat and that does add to the problem of drying. I do not think we can turn back the hands of the clock or prevent farmers from using it, because it is certainly far more economical, from a cost and labour point of view, and much more speedy for the farmer who has to deal with a substantial crop, than the old method; but following the combined harvester, we must have complete and adequate drying facilities within easy reach of the farm and sufficient to ensure that the wheat will be dried speedily and not allowed to remain in the sack or stored elsewhere in a damp condition.

The Bill, I am sure, has the unanimous approval of the House and I think it ought to succeed. If it does not, if merchants for some reason do not avail of it, other measures will have to be adopted to provide additional storage, but those who are engaged in the purchase and drying of grain are people of enterprise, and the facilities being granted under the Bill are fairly generous and, I am sure, will be availed of to a very large extent. I want particularly to stress the point with regard to drying facilities. There may, in some towns, be adequate storage facilities for the amount of wheat grown in the area, but drying facilities may not be adequate, and in such cases I should like to see this loan readily available to threshing millers or merchants, so that they could install these facilities immediately or in time for next year's harvest.

Mr. Cunningham

I am disappointed that this Bill does not contain provision for the giving of grants as well as loans for those who decide to erect grain stores where they have drying facilities. At the present cost of building, a merchant must be prepared to invest a good deal of capital in a grain store. That type of building is very expensive and the fact that loans are available is not just enough. The abnormal price of building materials warrants, or should warrant, the giving of grants as well. However, I am sure that the loans will entice people to go in for the building of the larger type of grain store.

I should like to see in the rural areas what I might more or less call grain depots where the farmer could store his grain, instead of having to go to the trouble involved in having his stacks of oats or wheat lying out until early spring, at the mercy of the elements and of rats. I am speaking for my own part of the country where that is a common enough procedure—the haggards full of stacks until well after the beginning of the new year. Great loss is caused by that practice and that practice is due. I think, to the fact that we have not got in the different areas what are termed grain depots. In order to get these, it will eventually be necessary to give grants as well as loans to the smaller type of grain merchant.

Mr. Hickey

What about the cooperatives?

Mr. Cunningham

If there were grants, co-operative concerns would avail of the facilities. It is necessary to have in some of the larger places drying facilities, especially for wheat. I find in my area that wheat has always played second fiddle to oats, and it is more or less bandied around and, if the flour mills are unable to take it, any old place does to dump it. That should not be the position.

My main purpose in contributing to the debate was to stress the point that grants should be available. We in Donegal who are very much interested in the seed oats position, find that it is not the most satisfactory thing to have seed oats stacked until very near sowing time. The ideal thing would be to have depots in different convenient places so that the merchant in the autumn, after threshing time, could buy up the oats, have it processed, select the best oats for keeping as seed and store that seed in proper condition.

Mr. Corry

In welcoming this Bill, I feel, like Deputy Morrissey, that it is a number of years behind time. I was rather amused to hear Deputies opposite telling us the stories about fertilisers and I wondered why they did not impart that information to Deputy Dillon when he was bringing in all the thousands of tons of superphosphate last year. I had a rather interesting experience in looking for storage for that superphosphate in my constituency. You went into a town and were told: "Their store is here or there." When you examined the store and saw what it was like, you realised you would not put a heap of manure in it, not to mind anything on which you placed any value.

As a matter of fact, in the town of Cobh both I and an official of the sugar company, who had been looking two days for storage for those fertilisers, had to end up by taking over Coras Iompair Éireann wagon sheds, where we stored from 5,000 to 6,000 tons of superphosphate. We had to do that because there was no storage available in the district. We spent two days travelling the whole of that district looking for storage and could not find it. To-day, the position is entirely different from what it was five, six or even two years ago. The "combines" have come to stay. Any man who has had experience of a combine harvester is not going to go back to the reaper and binder. I think that is clear enough.

I admit that a large number of farmers want a bit of schooling as to the particular time to cut. They generally utilise the combine to cut at the time they put in the reaper and binder. That is too early for the combine. When the harvest starts there will be an enormous inflow of grain to mills which they will not be able to dry. There is very little use in storage unless you have drying facilities. If some of the money that is used up in carting wheat and grain from one store to another all over the country—I think the grain is shifted five times in some places before it finally arrives back at the mill to be manufactured into flour-were given to the farmers we might get more grain produced. I am concerned not only with the storage of wheat but with the storage of barley, an enormous quantity of which will be available next year. At the present moment we are paying from £35 to £40 a ton for maize. That has got to be replaced by grain grown by ourselves. Again, the combine is going to come into play. Thousands of tons of grain will pour into stores and mills every day of the year. This grain will have to be both dried and stored.

Those are the difficulties I see confronting the country so far as storage is concerned. There is very little use talking about the stores throughout the country. In most cases, if you stand on the floor of one of them you would take the floor with you. Most of us who travel around the country for the purpose of storing fertilisers know the condition of most of those stores. I do not wish to delay the House except to suggest that where grain stores have been built they should be accompanied by a drying plant. The cost involved in this useless shifting of grain from one place to another has got to be paid for by somebody, and that somebody is the poor farmer.

Mr. Hickey

I will not delay the House very long. I have some knowledge of the lack of storage for grain in the City of Cork. I have seen huge sums of money paid to both Fords, Dunlops and the owners of other warehouses throughout the city for storing grain. Grain has been stored even in the Agricultural Show Grounds. On the question of fertilisers, there is no storage for fertilisers as such to-day. I am not at all in agreement with some of the Deputies who advocate that we should have big stores and big drying plants. My view is that the stores should be situated right through the country where there are co-operative creameries and to which the farmers could take the grain direct, have it dried and prepared and thus get the full benefit of that grain.

It is sometimes sad to see the farmers coming into the mills concentrated in Cork City and there waiting their turn to deliver their supplies because there is not storage anywhere throughout the country. If some £2,000,000 is to be spent I would suggest—I think Deputy Cunningham mentioned this—that it be spent on building stores that are needed in areas where there are co-operative societies. I am not so keen on concentrating too much storage in the big centres. Huge stores have been built in Cork and this means that farmers throughout County Cork and Munster, who have no place to store grain when they thresh it, have to come to these warehouses. With all the handling of the grain that takes place from store to store, the consumer pays for it in the end in the price of the flour.

I appeal to the Minister not to concentrate those stores in the big centres. It would be more desirable to see that these stores are built in the areas where co-operative societies are functioning. I have such areas in mind as Mitchelstown, Deputy Corry's own area, Lombardstown, Mallow, Mourne Abbey and Drinagh. I would like to see facilities given for the building of stores for all the farmers so that they might not be all the time going to the combines which operate in the bigger centres all over the country.

Mr. Sweetman

We are all in agreement with and support this Bill which has been introduced by the Minister. As he said himself, it is a Bill that was framed by his predecessor.

Mr. Walsh

Oh, no.

Mr. Sweetman

Did I understand the Minister to deny this was his predecessor's Bill?

Mr. Walsh

I said no such thing.

Mr. Sweetman

I thought the Minister said it, but whether he said it or not it is a fact.

Mr. Walsh

Not quite.

Mr. Sweetman

It does not matter whether or not the Minister said it. Whether it was his predecessor's Bill or the Minister's own Bill it is a good Bill and should go ahead. I think that some of the problems we will have in the immediate future in regard to storage will not be problems that can wait the long-term storage accommodation that will be produced under this Bill. I listened to Deputy Corry on the subject of storage and I must confess that I agree with him. Next year we are going to have a very serious storage problem, a problem which certainly will not be dealt with by the storage that will be put up with loans made available by this Bill.

In that regard I think we will have to try to make some arrangement at least to delay the non-combine wheat coming in to the drying facilities until the combine wheat has been dried and got out of the way. Otherwise, it seems to me fairly clear that you will have a jam in the drying facilities available and that the result of that jam will be that large quantities of grain will be left in sacks with the farmers with obviously much too much moisture in it and will become unusable. I am not suggesting it at all as a permanent solution for our problem, put I think that until such time as we can get on with the building of storage—and the Minister will, I think, agree that the building of storage takes a long time—some method must be found by which the price paid for wheat would increase as the season goes on. That would mean that those people who had proper facilities for putting up the wheat would be encouraged to defer sending in their crop and would withhold their supplies at the time when the drying facilities were being pushed to the utmost.

There are farmers throughout the country, of course, who will not cut by combine but by reaper and binder, farmers who have adequate facilities to rick and thatch their corn when it is cut and who, in some cases, have not the urgent necessity to thresh it. If that proportion of the farmers could be induced, by means of higher prices, to hold back their crop and thresh later in the season when the extreme pressure on the drying facilities was over it would meet some of the temporary difficulties which the Minister will encounter until such time as new storage capacity is produced.

I understood the Minister to say that our annual consumption of wheat was 450,000 tons. I think it has risen to 480,000. The likelihood will be that the consumption will be over this figure rather than under it and therefore the other estimates he gave of storage capacity are more likely to be underestimates than overestimates. Bearing that in mind it will be seen that there is a very substantial problem.

Mr. Dillon

450,000 tons of wheat only?

Mr. Sweetman

Yes. The Minister indicated, in opening, that the 615,000 tons storage capacity is for all grain. Of course, it is not possible to put grain in the type of old building that might be used as a store for fertilisers. For anybody to suggest otherwise is nonsensical and I do not think that Deputy Corry was serious in the suggestions he was making in that regard.

I understand that at one period during the war, at the beginning of 1945, our storage position was so serious that in spite of wartime and emergency difficulties we nevertheless had to refuse 50,000 tons of wheat which we were offered at the time because we had not adequate storage facilities. It shows to what limits we were pushed when in those difficult times we had to refuse wheat because we had not the facilities. It was as a result of the discussion of that fact by the Minister's predecessor, I think, that the plan for the erection of new grain storage was started.

I believe that during this year about 18,000 tons capacity in one silo was completed at Alexandra Wharf in Dublin. Then it transpired that the cost worked out at, approximately, £20 per ton storage space. I do not know if the Minister can verify that figure or not, but I think it was anticipated that 18,000 tons space would cost between £300,000 and £350,000 then, and I am sure that the cost has risen in the last three months.

Mr. Hickey

Is that storage space alone?

Mr. Sweetman

It is not merely the actual shelves for storage but the whole apparatus for dealing with grain which would be put in that store as well. If we relate those figures as they were to the facts which the Minister has given us, that we want 235,000 tons grade A storage space, it will easily be seen that this Bill will not be sufficient.

Mr. Walsh

200,000 tons, grade A.

Mr. Sweetman

I thought it was 235,000 tons. On the £20 per ton basis the Minister's figure would amount to £4,000,000. I think, therefore, that something more than the facilities mentioned in this Bill, £2,500,000, will be required.

Mr. Walsh

We do not mean only to build new stores. There are stores to be renovated.

Mr. Sweetman

If that is the case it merely strengthens the point made by Deputy Morrissey. In addition to the 18,000 tons space completed this year at Alexandra Wharf another 7,000 tons space was in course of erection earlier this year in Dublin.

Mr. Dillon

And 15,000 tons in Cork.

Mr. Sweetman

More than 15,000 tons. There was another 50,000 tons space negotiations for the erection of which started early this year in Dublin. I think that the contract for the erection of that 50,000 tons space had actually been signed and I was disappointed to hear from the Minister that negotiations were only in progress. I wonder did the Minister mean negotiations with regard to terms of payment and not with regard to the contract for erection which I thought had been completed previously. In addition, in Cork there were, I think, two stores, one of 10,000 tons space and the other of 13,500 tons in course of erection at an early date this year. An extension of 4,000 tons in Limerick was, I think, completed early this year and another silo was erected in Carlow for 1,000 tons giving a total either erected, in course of erection or planned of 85,000 tons. That would mean that on the Minister's figure another 115,000 tons would have to be planned elsewhere. I would urge that in so far as is compatible with the economic use of drying facilities that 115,000 tons would be spread as far as possible over the country.

It would be very undesirable that the additional facilities that will be provided should be concentrated, but I would confess at once to the Minister that I do not know what the minimum storage capacity is that it is economical to utilise bearing in mind the fact that there must be facilities to dry down the Irish wheat to 16½ per cent. water content, which, I think, is roughly the water content at which wheat is milled. I would like the Minister to clarify when he is concluding whether the 200,000 tons new building space and renovated space that the Minister mentioned includes the 35,000 tons already completed or a-building and the 50,000 tons planned or is in addition to that.

I would also like to make it clear to the Minister that, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned, if this Bill does not go far enough in providing funds to meet all the storage difficulties he will have not the slightest trouble from us if he comes back to us again at a later date and says more is required.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

The necessity for the introduction of this Bill is well reflected by the welcome it is receiving in the House. I would join with Deputy Hickey in asking the Minister to consider the erection of well-distributed grain depots. Where there are co-operative societies and dairy disposals board creameries, there would be ideal locations for the establishment of these smaller storage facilities. Apart from the question of wheat and fertilisers, if the people had proper storage they would go in for growing more grain so that they could carry over more stock, particularly with the development in relation to Ymer barley.

All through the years, as a result of a lack of proper storage, we have lost too much of what we grow on our farms through the depredations of vermin on grain intended for stock feeding. In the dairying counties, people coming in with their milk in the morning could take back the grain they require. They would know that what they would sow and harvest would be safely stored and that they would not have to bear the heavy losses which they have been suffering through the years because of the fact that they could not store the grain on their own farms.

I would endorse everything said by the Deputies who have contributed to the debate and who have welcomed this Bill. The Bill will be equally welcomed throughout the country. As Deputy Sweetman has said, if an extension of the financial provisions is necessary, the absolute necessity of providing storage will ensure that the House will afford the necessary facilities to the Government.

Mr. Allen

There are just a few matters on this Bill to which I should like to advert. We would like some more information from the Minister as to whether this A.1 storage is to be concentrated on the ports or distributed over the country. It is admitted by everyone in this country that we must produce the grain for both human and animal feeding for all foreseeable time. Therefore, instead of milling all our wheat at the ports, as has been the traditional practice, we should mill it as near as possible to the area where it is grown. In order to save transport costs, as a long-term policy, the stores provided for in this Bill should be erected convenient to where the grain is grown.

The Minister did not tell us in introducing the Bill whether the stores would provide drying facilities or not. As has been pointed out by other Deputies, the provision of drying facilities is necessary owing to the use of the combined harvester. The Minister and his Department are fully aware of that. Big problems arose for the last few years and even greater problems will arise next year. Unless more drying facilities are provided convenient to where the corn is grown grave losses will occur during the harvest. I would suggest to the Minister that he should plan to have sufficient storage and sufficient drying facilities provided, especially in the counties where most corn is grown. If new corn-growing belts are developed, storage should also be provided for them. It would be a very wrong policy to concentrate all our new stores at a few ports. If that were done, it would look as if we intended in future to import the grain we need. I am sure Deputy Dillon would highly approve of building all the storage at the ports. I have not a bit of doubt about that. He may have changed his mind.

Mr. Dillon

It is Deputy Tomás Breathnach's schedule that you are discussing now.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Dillon saw the daylight much later than a great number of people in this country. It is from the land of this country that the grain that is needed in the country must come.

Mr. Dillon

Now that you have raised that topic I will have a word to say about it.

Mr. Allen

It is good national policy for the people of Ireland to grow the food they need from the land of Ireland. I should like again to impress upon the Minister the necessity of getting for next year's harvest additional drying facilities convenient to the areas where the corn is grown, out of these moneys or otherwise. If that is not done, the farmers and the nation as a whole will suffer very serious loss. A great deal of grain will be badly damaged if adequate drying facilities are not made available.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen has raised a matter on which I think he and a number of Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party require some education which I propose now to give them.

Mr. Allen

We will have to travel beyond you for that.

Mr. Dillon

Grain storage has to be provided for the accommodation of the cereals our people intend to use. Those fall into two categories. One category is bread grains and the other category is cereals for animal feeding. Under the category of bread grains the average consumption of our people has been reckoned for many years as a sack of flour per annum per head of the population. That is 3,000,000 sacks of flour per annum. Bearing in mind that your average extraction is in the order of about 80 per cent., it means that you require something like 480,000 tons of wheat per annum. It works out at something about that. Three million sacks of flour are about 400,000 tons, and if you add a fifth on to that, I think it works out at about 480,000 tons of wheat per annum for bread grains. This is what I should like Deputy Allen and some other Fianna Fáil Deputies to get into their intellects. It does not matter how much wheat you grow in this country, if you want to continue to supply our people with bakers' bread as opposed to cake bread, you must import from Canada a certain proportion of Manitoba wheat to get the high protein content to provide the texture of dough which will bake in a baker's oven into yeast bread. A great many well-intentioned Deputies do not know that.

Mr. Allen

That is not a fact.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen does not know it. I appeal to the Minister for Agriculture to take Deputy Allen away into some quiet place and break the news to him, because he and I are getting to be middle-aged men and it is a terrible thing to carry into your later middle-age the illusions of your youth because their loss in later middle-age is liable to be out of all proportion to their value. Before Deputy Allen finally attains to his seniority, I suggest that the Minister for Agriculture would share with him the pain of losing the illusion which the Minister for Agriculture had until relatively recently himself but has now prudently shed, and tell Deputy Allen that if baker's bread is to be made in this country we must have access to Manitoba wheat.

Major de Valera

Will the Deputy give us his authority for that statement? It is very interesting.

Mr. Dillon

Twenty-five years' experience at the baker's oven.

Mr. Allen

Did you ever make a loaf?

Mr. Dillon

Yes; I am the only baker in Ballaghaderreen.

Mr. Allen

Did you do it yourself?

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a Bill to provide loans for grain storage.

Mr. Dillon

And the question arises as to where the grain is going to come from in order to fix the location of the stores.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think it does.

Major de Valera

Are we to understand that this statement is made on Deputy Dillon's authority only? If there is a technical backing for it, I should like to have it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want the Deputies to get back to the Bill which is before the House.

Mr. Dillon

The source which wheat comes from must naturally determine where the transit storage will be located. If we are bound to bring some wheat in through a port, we must advert to the necessity for transit storage for that. I think the Minister for Agriculture will confirm me when I say that in the current year we will buy no dollar wheat at all except Canadian. The balance of the soft wheat will be bought in Australia, and the wheat from Canada, the wheat from Australia and the wheat from our own domestic production will complete our bread requirements. That is the position. Storage to deal with wheat or any grain from abroad can be either permanent storage or transit storage and it is vital to make up your mind before you embark on a programme of storage whether you are going to use the storage at the ports purely as transit storage or whether you are going to build permanent storage.

Deputies should remember that when they are dealing with grain storage they are not only dealing with wheat but with animal feed as well. Here is the dangerous error into which many Deputies fall. It becomes a kind of virtue to say that we should not import any grain for feeding live stock because, says the virtuous illusionist, "we ought to produce it at home". But no such dilemma exists. The fact is that we are able to use all we produce at home for stock feeding and import as much more.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy going into agricultural policy now?

Mr. Dillon

I am arguing for the provision of adequate storage for grain.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not appear so to the Chair.

Mr. Dillon

I will tell you what happened in the past. The storage at Dublin and Cork used to fill up with maize and imported barley, with the result that wheat and other cereals filled up the provincial storage. Therefore you very often had in Dublin capacious stores, with drying equipment attached thereto, full of dry grain, with mountains of wheat grain being tendered for storage and the drying facilities in rural Ireland breaking down completely under the strain of trying to dry the grain offered. The result is that, on occasions, I have known cases of grain being grown in Kilkenny, being sent to Dublin to be dried, being directed to Ardee for storage, and then returned to Dublin to be milled satisfactorily, simply because the big stores in Dublin were packed with the imported grain, which did not require to be dried, and the stores which could have received the dry grain and held it comfortably were in fact being tendered wet grain which they could not safely take until it was dried.

Therefore, I assure you that it is a matter of very urgent importance to clarify our minds as to what the future is likely to hold before we start spending from £2,000,000 to £4,000,000 on building storage. If we build storage in the wrong places, we pile transport costs on the grain which at present fall on the flour subsidy. I think the House would be astonished at what it has cost the community to pay the transit charges on grain from one place to another because the storage and the drying facilities are not suitably located.

It is for that reason that in envisaging this question of storage I would implore Deputies to face this fact: that there is no contradiction whatever between growing all the feeding stuffs our land is capable of producing and bringing in substantial quantities as well. It is a disastrous economic heresy for our people to be persuaded that they do something unpatriotic or wrong in producing and finishing on their holdings more live stock than they can feed and finish with the feeding stuffs produced on their own holdings. My hope would be that the small farmer would engage in mixed farming and, having produced all the animal feeding stuff his holding would economically produce, he should then double the quantity by adding to his own domestic production as much more feeding stuff purchased from outside, whether it be from a neighbour or from a foreign country, and on his holding he should in that way produce and finish twice as many live stock as his own acreage will sustain for the great advantage of the whole country.

Now, if we are to do that, and we ought to do it because the main product of our farming is meat of which there is a world shortage and of which there will be a world shortage for as far ahead as we can see, our storage possibility should be based on two assumptions. One is that we aim to produce all the animal feeding-stuffs that the land is economically capable of producing. They fall into two classes, grass and cereals; I include for the purpose of this debate grass and roots on the one hand and cereals on the other, allowing for the necessary rotation which involves inescapably a considerable acreage of cultivated grass, the most valuable crop that can be grown in a country with an annual rainfall of 42 inches.

There will also be the corresponding acreage of cereals. The cereals, taking one year with another, will have a moisture content of between 20 and 24 per cent. They cannot safely be kept in store with a moisture content in excess of 16 per cent. If they are milled forthwith they will probably be reduced to a moisture content of about 13. That means, and this is what I would beg Deputies to bear in mind, rural storage without drying facilities is nonsense. To erect a store or to appropriate an existing building for storage without drying facilities annexed thereto is to put around one's own neck a blister for all time. It may not be necessary to put a drying unit in every building but if you have conveniently grouped stores at three ends of the one town or on three sides of the one town you must have a drying unit which will serve all three stores preparatory to the grain being deposited there.

When erecting storage not only must there be drying facilities but there must be every device for mechanical handling that can be advantageously procured. Now I am afraid that Deputy Hickey will shake his gory locks at me because here, as in Great Britain and various other countries, and America as well, we have run into the difficulty that at the docks and at the mills our labouring men have fallen into the common chartist illusion that machinery displaces men and we are faced then with the fantastic situation, which, I think, obtained for some time in the City of Cork and for a time at the Port of Dublin, in which there was modern up-to-date discharging machinery, but no one would be allowed to work it because our men, whose standard of living and standard of dignity everyone wanted to raise, preferred to go on tramping down into the hold of the ship, filling a bag with grain there, tramping up again out of the hold and walking the grain off the ship, as was done by the servants of Pharaoh 7,000 years ago.

Mr. Hickey

That does not happen now.

Mr. Dillon

I sympathise and understand their apprehension, but I do hope the trade union leaders equally understand that, in the long run, machinery has never permanently displaced any man, though it may require him to change.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will admit that this is a trifle removed from the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

We intend to put up 50,000 tons of storage at the Port of Dublin. To put up 50,000 tons of extra storage there, if mechanical unloading is not installed and regularly used, will be suicide because the demurrage on the ships will nullify it.

Mr. Hickey

It is there already.

Mr. Dillon

Until recently it was not being worked at all.

Mr. Hickey

It is working very well now.

Mr. Dillon

I am glad to hear it. I think some trouble arose in Limerick. The plain fact is that where this difficulty has been overcome we can with safety proceed with the erection of suitable storage. Where the dock workers are resolutely opposed to its user, it would be madness to erect storage. All I hope is that that difficulty will be overcome at all costs.

In fairness to our own men, I think we should make it clear that the same problem at present afflicts the Port of London. It has arisen not infrequently at the Port of Baltimore and New York. It is not a peculiarity of our men alone. It is being slowly overcome. It is closely integrated with the problem we are now considering. Therefore, in respect of rural storage, I beg Deputies to bear in mind that storage does not mean a store; it means a store plus adequate drying facilities.

Our storage programme, in my submission to the Minister, should follow broadly these lines: there should be available in every grain-growing county storage and drying facilities which will enable every farmer who grows grain to get his grain dried without being under a compliment to the man who dries it. The present position is that in many parts of the country, if you want to get grain dried for storage, not only must you pay for it but you must beg the miller who does it for you to do you the favour of taking over the doing of it.

Secondly, I suggest to the Minister that he must consider forthwith whether he will nationalise the milling industry or leave it in its present state. If he intends to leave the flour-milling industry in its present state, I suggest to him that he has the right and duty to say to each miller: The Government is prepared to help in providing storage provided the millers do their part. Every individual miller has the inestimably valuable gift from the Government of a milling licence. What that milling licence is worth it is difficult to estimate, but it is worth a great deal of money and I think it would be perfectly fair to say to every-miller that one of the conditions attaching to the renewal of his licence hereafter will be that he will provide storage and drying facilities for at least 50 per cent. of his annual throughput. When you have done that and I see the general picture, I will be prepared to weigh in and try to fill up the remaining gaps in our national economy.

I had not the advantage of hearing the Minister open on this Bill, but I have no doubt that he was careful, with his characteristic generosity, to record faithfully the storage projects which were in progress when I left office, and which, no doubt, he has made substantial progress in bringing to fruition. There was the merchant-warehousing proposal, there was the Port Milling Company silo, there was the Dublin North City Milling provision——

Mr. Walsh

Proposals.

Mr. Dillon

There was the Cork milling proposal, and I think the second National Milling Company proposal from Cork. There was Rank's new store in Limerick. I take it that the Minister has given the House full particulars of these, and, therefore, it is unnecessary for me to go further into them. The Minister, I know, will agree with me—I agree with him-that, in addition to these arrangements, it was necessary to get power to lend money on attractive terms to other parties who would erect the additional storage necessary after the millers have provided 50 per cent. of their own. If, on the other hand, the Minister contemplates nationalising the milling industry, which I think he ought to do forthwith, he should bear in mind that one of the most useful purposes to which the uneconomic units in the milling industry at present being used could be diverted to would be as grain stores.

Mr. Hickey

Hear, hear!

Mr. Dillon

As the Minister must know, at the present time there are a number of fantastically small mills operating with antediluvian equipment. They are kept in operation by the millers for the purpose of fixing high average costings for their flour milling so that the well-equipped modern mills will earn fantastic profits because they can prove that, if they were required to mill as efficiently as they could, some of the small rural mills would be wiped out at once. Therefore, they have carefully kept these in operation for no other purpose than to raise their own authorised margin of profit.

Mr. Hickey

They are all combined now.

Mr. Dillon

Not all. Ninety per cent. of the flour milling capacity of this country is owned by two men. Now, I bear no grudge whatever against any hardworking man.

Mr. Davin

Someone else works for them.

Mr. Dillon

I have often said very sharp things about one of them, who was not born in Blackrock, but let this be said, if we have had to say severe things, that he was a good friend to this country throughout the war, and that without his help in getting supplies of grain we might not have got on as well as we did.

Mr. Hickey

I am not convinced of that.

Mr. Dillon

My experience of one party was that he was as tough as leather, but that if you were straight with him he would be straight with you, but that if you wanted to do any double-crossing with him he could give you 100 yards' start and beat you by a quarter of a mile. If you were prepared to deal with him in a straight and honest way, then, so far as I know, I never knew him to reciprocate with anything but a 100 per cent. honourable, straightforward business in return.

Mr. Davin

So long as he got his 25 per cent.

Mr. Dillon

I speak of things and people as I know them, and I have never been afraid to speak critically where that was necessary. I do put this to the Minister, that, where a situation has come about that two men however public-spirited, however responsible, and however admirable in effect control the entire flour-milling industry of the country, the time has come, with no hard feelings or recriminations, equitably to compensate them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely, the nationalising of the flour-milling industry does not arise on this Bill.

Mr. Dillon

If it is to be done, there are at least ten flour grain stores.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not object to the Deputy making the case that there will be more storage if that has to be done, but he, surely, cannot make a case for nationalising the flour-milling industry on this Bill.

Mr. Dillon

I do not make that case, but I say, if it is to be done, there will be a double benefit in using these small mills for storage. It will provide you, at virtually no expense, with quite good storage, in the main fully equipped with drying facilities, and will, at the same time, eliminate uneconomic units. Last, and by no means least important, these mills are situated mainly in small towns where they constitute a very large volume of local employment and preserve in existence the economic life of the community which has grown up around them, quite distinct from preserving the individual employment of the men or women employed in them. If you destroy completely and obliterate an industry, or an occupation, however small which constitutes a large part of the economic life of a small town, then you reduce that town to a state of destitution.

Therefore, sight should not be lost of this. Taking the economic value of say ten of these small units as storage, to build new stores as good would easily cost you £500,000. After all, £500,000 is worth considering, and, therefore, I think it is something that we ought to put our minds to.

The second consideration is this. Our storage must cater not only for the domestic wheat crop, but for the domestic oats and barley crops. It is quite astonishing the quantity of oats that goes mouldy in farmers' lofts in this country. I think that any farmer who wants to keep his oats in good condition should have facilities for getting it dried if he means to retain it. I think cheap facilities should be provided for him for the purpose. Over and above that, if our live stock expansion is to continue on the scale on which it is expanding at the present time, we must, and should bring in, in addition to what we produce at home, very considerable quantities of cereals where they can be economically purchased for conversion into meat for sale abroad. That is the justification for building permanent storage at the ports of Dublin and Cork.

If we were handling nothing at these ports except imported wheat, then I think we should confine ourselves very much to transit storage. It is because we ought to look forward to steadily increasing the quantity of cereal feeding stuffs, of one kind and another, coming in here to supplement our domestic production, so that our meat product exports may continue to expand, that I urge on the Minister that the programme which, I assume, he outlined to the House of 50,000 tons by the merchants' warehousing, the 6,000 to 8,000 tons by the North Dublin City Milling Company, the 13,500 tons by the National Flour Milling Company in Cork, and the 10,000 tons by the Cork Milling Company, should be regarded as our short-term minimum.

We put that in hand as being what was urgently necessary, but, in fact, on the assumption that we would persuade the mills to provide storage and drying for 50 per cent. of their own. Our additional requirements, when I last calculated it, were 235,000 tons. The programme for additional port storage was 23,500 in Cork, 56,000 in Dublin, and 4,000 which Messrs. Ranks provided for themselves in Limerick, and the Barrow Milling Company. I think, which provided 1,000 tons of storage. That gave you, in toto, about 84,000 tons, and it left about 150,000 tons storage to be built in the long-term programme.

Mr. Walsh

When were the 84,000 tons provided?

Mr. Dillon

My recollection of it is that there were 10,000 tons supplied by the Cork Milling Company, 13,500 by the National Flour Milling Company in Cork; the Barrow Milling Company and Ranks had acquired and converted buildings in Limerick to provide 5,000. The Merchant Warehousing were negotiating with us for the erection of 50,000 tons and, I think, I advised them if they did not build it I would build it. In addition to that, the North City Milling Company were to erect between 6,000 and 8,000 tons storage—I think 6,000 tons on their own initiative and if they got help or a guarantee of user they would extend it to 8,000 tons. That is my recollection. It is five months since I left the Department, and it is not easy to recall such things in detail because, as the Minister by this time knows, the preoccupations of the Minister for Agriculture are many and varied.

Mr. Walsh

And varied.

Mr. Dillon

"Varied" is the operative word—everything from a turkey-cock to the building of storage with suitable drying arrangements for imported grain. When you come to the provision of the long-term storage, I found that we must be dominated by the sequela of nationalisation of the flour-milling industry or, if you are to lay that aside, by the consideration that there ought to be in every grain-growing country storage associated with drying sufficient to enable a farmer to get his corn dried.

The last thing I want to say is this. The provision of money is not the only thing to achieve the purpose here. There is no use persuading ourselves in this House that all we have to do is to wave our hands and the thing is done. The equipment for establishments of this kind is not easy to procure at the present time, and it may take some considerable time to get it. It should be, in so far as the Minister is responsible, of the most modern kind and of the most labour-saving kind because that is the equipment which will make the operation of storage and drying cheapest for the farmer. I would look forward, were I Minister for Agriculture, with dismay to the attempt to provide cheap and adequate storage for the farmers of this country if I had to do it in a running battle with the flour-milling industry. I would look forward to it as a relatively easy task if the flour-milling industry were under national control.

I think the Minister is undertaking a task in which he will find it appallingly difficult to get this work satisfactorily done on equitable terms if the existing vested interests are to be allowed to continue their operations. I do not think, in any circumstances, he will contemplate nationalising the coarse grain milling business, and I think he would make a great mistake if he did. He would find them as tough and as ruthless a group—the Millers' Association—as you could meet in a day's walk.

So long as he does not cross them they will be like cooing doves; but let him, in the discharge of his duty, trespass on their slightest perquisite and there is no tougher gang in Europe and they will block and harass him to the limit of their capacity, which is not inconsiderable. He will find it from time to time his duty to challenge their claims to protect the distribution to farmers and he will then find himself derided in public as plunging into matters about which he has no understanding and upsetting the economic life of the country.

Let me say to the Minister here and now: when that kind of dirty fraud is tried on him, let him rest assured they will find no spokesmen in this House. I had too long and bitter an experience of the reverse ever so to treat my successor. When he does have to challenge the vested interests they will stop at nothing to prevent him doing his duty. Whether in Recess or while this House is sitting, let him rest assured of this: he can face them fearlessly in the certain knowledge that they will have no specious spokesmen from this side of the House.

I wish the Minister luck with his programme and I can assure him that I will not minimise the difficulties with which he will have to contend in so far as he desires to pursue this programme —as I do not doubt he does—if it provides facilities for the farmer and, in so far as he views this problem from the point of view of the farmer and not from the point of view of those who live out of the farmer, let him never apprehend that he will be presented with dilemmas and challenges in Dáil Éireann. But I do exhort him to view every suggestion presented to him by the milling vested interests of this country in connection with the outlay of this money patiently but with, I go so far as to say, suspicion.

Make certain there is not a nigger in the woodpile before you buy in all the smiling proposals which will be put before you by the vested interests in this country, because you will discover, the moment you begin to ask them questions, the smiles disappearing and a very different cast of countenance confronting you. It should be a source of strength to my successor to know when it becomes his duty to beat down on that kind of challenge that he can depend on all sides of this House to hold up his hand.

Mr. Rooney

I am very glad to see a measure of this kind introduced. It is unfortunate that it was not introduced many years ago, especially before compulsory tillage was embarked upon. I have no doubt that very grave losses were suffered by the nation and by the farmers by reason of the fact that proper grain storage was not available when the compulsory tillage campaign was being carried on in full force. I hope, when this Bill is passed, finance and facilities will be made available through proper channels and that every effort will be made to ensure that no attempt will be made to monopolise the facilities which the Bill proposes to give.

I would like to hear from the Minister something more about the general plan-whether he has in mind the provision of grain storage accommodation for imported grain, including imported wheat. We have been importing a certain amount of wheat which took much of the available storage—the very limited storage-which we had. We were very lucky that the previous Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, pointed out the very real need for proper storage facilities in this country, especially in the event of an emergency. The real value of this storage will be to ensure that there will not be wastage in the matter of production, that nearly 100 per cent. of production will eventually reach the consumer and that the difference that exists between the original amount produced and the actual amount eventually reaching the consumer will be wiped out.

When the Minister is replying, I would be anxious to hear from him what plans there are for drying this grain, whether it is proposed, for instance, to establish drying plants in various parts of the country.

I am in favour of having grain storage established at many points in the country. I do not believe in having storage concentrated in a few places, even though it might be better from the point of view of economy to have such big stores in a few places where we could have gear and facilities. In the long run, it might be better to have these stores spread throughout the country. This will mean a certain amount of economy in the matter of transport. If all the grain produced in this country has to be transported over long distances to these proposed big stores, not alone will the grain suffer in the course of transport but it must eventually bear the extra cost of that transport.

I hope that this grain storage space will also be used for the storage of oats and barley and of any cereals produced in this country. Up to the present, facilities for the storage of oats and barley have not been good. Many of the ordinary farmers dispose of oats and barley at what appear to be uneconomic prices at a time when there is, possibly, a surplus of these cereals on the market. He has not got the facilities which would encourage him to hold these cereals in order to ensure there would be more even distribution in relation to supply and demand. I feel that, in conjunction with this grain storage provision, the Minister should also put forward a plan to the farmers of this country on the basis of floor prices for oats and barley. They have a guaranteed price for wheat but not a guaranteed price for oats and barley. They have not even got a floor price. If a floor price were provided, I think they call it a price support programme in America, I feel that farmers would be encouraged to avail of the finance that will be granted in relation to grain storage.

In the long run, I think it will be of benefit to the country as a whole and to the farmers. I hope that this is not a long-term scheme and that we will start immediately on the provision of this storage. I know that it is a new departure from the point of view of the present Minister when we take into consideration the forecast of the wheat acreage some years ago when the American experts asked about our programme at that time. It was indicated, I think, that the number of acres of wheat would be something like 230,000. I presume that the average yield of wheat for the emergency years was taken into consideration, and that it was acres rather than production which was considered at the time the forecast was being made. I am much more in favour of increasing production in relation to the number of acres. I feel the amount of grain storage to be provided should be based on a certain acreage and in so far as the farmers find it economic, we should produce a certain acreage of wheat, oats and barley.

It should be possible to indicate from statistics the amount of grain that might become available in any good year. I think we should take a good year or a peak year as the basis for our calculations in connection with grain storage, instead of taking a year in which there was a minimum yield owing to weather conditions or other circumstances. I am particularly in favour of this plan because in the long run it may enable us also to encourage a programme under which oats and barley possibly could be mixed with other feeding-stuffs produced on our farms so that we would have feeding-stuffs for all our animals. The world market price of feeding-stuffs has a tendency to upset our economy here when we have to import these feeding-stuffs for the purpose of feeding live stock such as pigs and poultry. I hope that in this scheme provision will be made for the storing and drying of oats and barley.

Mr. Walsh

I am very grateful to Deputies on the opposite side for the manner in which they have received this Bill. There has been no criticism of it. As a matter of fact, I have been commended for introducing it and I do not believe there is much necessity for me to delay the House in replying to any of the questions raised because they were of minor importance. They were raised principally by Deputies who were not in the House when I made my opening statement. Had they been here they would have realised that attention was being given to these matters. For instance, Deputy Rooney raised the question of drying and storage facilities and asked whether they would be provided. They will be provided. In addition loans will be made available for the renovation of old stores and derelict stores and for the installation of necessary equipment. All these points were fully covered in the opening statement which I made.

I agree with Deputy Morrissey and with other Deputies that storage is a great necessity in the country at the present time. That has been particularly true of the years since the increased tillage policy was entered upon. Much grain has been lost year after year, principally because we had not sufficient storage. I have had personal experience of many cases in which corn, after being threshed, was left in sacks and stored, not in houses, but in the haggards actually, for a week or so. Dampness from the ground percolated into these sacks and when the corn was taken out, some time afterwards, it was found that for four or five inches from the bottom of the sack, the corn was sprouting and was no use for any purpose. By having proper storage and proper drying equipment, we shall be able to avoid all these losses. I believe that when additional storage accommodation is being provided in the country drying equipment will also be installed.

As regards the erection of granaries and suggestions that co-operative creameries should take over responsibility for the erection of stores and the installation of drying facilities, I do not think that is feasible because the creamery areas where there are a big number of co-operative creameries, are not the areas where you get corn production on any big scale. In the Counties of Kilkenny and Carlow, for instance, you have very few creameries and consequently you have no co-operative societies. But you have people who have been assembling wheat and who have been in the business for many years. They are known as corn merchants. They buy all types of corn-wheat, oats and barley. They have a certain amount of storage and if we help them, by making loans available to improve and add to the storage accommodation and to install drying equipment, I think we shall be meeting the case pretty well.

Mr. Dillon

Might I interrupt the Minister for a moment? Surely the would consider a proposal for the establishment of ad hoc co-operative societies by farmers to dry and store grain just as we had ad hoc co-operative for the drying and storing of apples?

Mr. Walsh

We could possibly do that in districts where you have not corn merchants, but you have corn merchants in the grain growing districts who have been in the business for a number of years, and who have fairly good storage. It may not be classed as grade A storage, but it is good storage, and if we make available a fair amount of money to enable them to install drying equipment and to improve their storage facilities, their stores would be perfectly all right for the purpose of storing wheat, barley and oats. I do not see why we should start off to make a survey with a view to erecting new stores all over the country until such time as we have discovered whether these other stores are sufficient or not.

Mr. Dillon

But where the Minister makes up his mind that a new store is required——

Mr. Walsh

We have to take that into consideration. We are starting off in the other direction at present by making loans available for the purpose of renovating old stores. It is very necessary to have them in the country because the tendency in the large grain growing areas is to have more harvest work carried out by combines. Somebody has suggested that an effort should be made by farmers who are not using combines to hold back wheat in order to give them a chance of hiring combines. That is a ridiculous suggestion, because I do not see why the corn of a farmer which is ripe should be held back in order to facilitate the man with the combine. We may possibly be able to facilitate both of them. Even before the war years, when you had differential prices in harvest and spring, that arrangement did not prove a success. There are many reasons why it might not prove to be a success even now. For instance, a farmer may want cash in the harvest time. Oats and barley are cash crops, and the farmer may not be in a position to hold them back until the following spring. Of course I agree that anybody who does hold them back will get better seed from the straw in the following spring, but in the majority of cases farmers require the money in harvest time. That is why you have practically all the wheat sent into the mills within a period of three or four weeks. That has been the system, and I think it is going to continue to be the system. It would, I agree, be a good idea if some of the corn could be held back, as it would minimise the storage difficulties with which we are confronted at present. I do not know that I have missed any of the points that have been raised in the debate. As I say, most of the remarks that have been made have been complimentary. Because of that, and because of the objects for which the Bill has been introduced, I hope the House will agree to give me all the stages of the Bill within the next 20 minutes.

Mr. Davin

There is one very important question which the Minister has evaded.

Mr. Walsh

Not evaded; perhaps forgotten.

Mr. Davin

I do not say it was done deliberately. Has any consideration been given to the suggestions made by Deputy Dillon that the flour-milling industry should be nationalised?

Mr. Walsh

None in the world.

Mr. Davin

Has the Minister any viewpoint on it?

Mr. Walsh

None.

Mr. Dillon

I wonder could the Minister tell us with a little more precision his view in relation to the storage which it is desirable to provide at ports? If he remembers, Deputy Allen took the view that there is a certain minimum requirement at the ports.

Mr. Walsh

Of course, provision is being made for storage at the ports. Up to the present 60 per cent. of our requirements have been imported. We have three ports in the country—I might indeed reduce the number to two—where you must have storage facilities for wheat. Consequently, provision is being made for further storage. Deputy Dillon mentioned that we were going ahead with the new storage in Dublin and in the other places. With regard to the 50,000-ton silo that was to have been erected in Dublin, negotiations have not yet been completed though I hope they will be completed in a short time and that we shall be able to go ahead with the building. I am sure the Deputy is also aware of the difficulties that obtain in condition of their licence, to provide Dublin regarding storage facilities. He knows that we had to go to the Royal Dublin Society to store 4,000 tons of wheat there this year and that we had to take storage from Córas Iompair Éireann. Apart altogether from the question of the importation of wheat, it is essential to have storage in Dublin because of the huge quantities of flour that have to be manufactured in the city and because of the number of months to be fed there.

Mr. Dillon

I understood that the reason why we had to go to the Royal Dublin Society and to Córas Iompair Éireann for the extra storage this year was that we had the largest ever accumulated stock of wheat in this country.

Mr. Walsh

No. We imported more this year.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the next stage?

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister may take it that there is no objection to the Bill from this side of the House. However, there is the possibility that it may be necessary to put down a simple amendment or two to it. I suggest that the Minister defer the Committee Stage to, say, Thursday, when we will give him all the remaining stages.

Mr. Walsh

Thank you.

Mr. Morrissey

I am not making that suggestion now for the purpose of delaying the passage of the Bill. The Minister will appreciate that we want to have a further look at it.

Mr. Dillon

In the event of the question of nationalisation not being dealt with, has the Minister considered requiring the flour millers, as a condition of their licence, to provide storage equivalent to 50 per cent. of their throughput?

Mr. Walsh

In my opening statement I said that if storage is not provided we shall have to take other action.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Minister propose, then, to require millers, as a condition of their licence, to provide storage equivalent to 50 per cent. of their throughput?

Mr. Walsh

The Minister intends to have storage provided in this country.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to put down an amendment which may cause inconvenience. I understand the Minister's difficulties perfectly. Can he assure the House that what can be done is being done? Is that his general view?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Rooney

In connection with this scheme, has the Minister considered taking steps which will present the operation of a monopoly which is costing the consumers of this country the best part of £1,000,000 for bread?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Bill. It is a separate issue altogether.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 13th December, 1951.