I think the Tánaiste was not being quite fair to himself in reply to Deputy Davin's question. Surely this Bill is one for the purpose of providing loans to private enterprise as well as grants.
Committee on Finance. - Undeveloped Areas Bill, 1951—Committee Stage.
Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."
No. Only grants. In so far as my reply to Deputy Davin's question may be misleading, I think it is well to make it clear that there will be no question of a continuing subsidy. The help that will be given to any group promoting an industrial project will be given initially and finally and there will be no question of any continuing subsidy.
But ther is power in the Bill to maintain an industry.
Perhaps we had better discuss that when we come to it.
Does this arise on Section 1?
No, I merely wanted to mention it while it was clear in the Tánaiste's mind.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
I move amendment No. 1:—
In Section 2, between lines 11 and 12, to insert a new definition as follows:—
"industrial undertaking" includes an undertaking in existence at the passing of this Act;
I have some slight hesitation in proposing this amendment. I considered carefully whether the help to be given under this Bill should be confined to new enterprises or whether it should, under any circumstances, be made available for the purpose of extending an existing enterprise. I initially decided against giving help for the expansion of existing enterprises because I felt that an existing enterprise was one that having been located in an undeveloped area already, presumably did not regard itself as being at any great disadvantage because the decision to go there was voluntary; and, secondly, because it might lead to difficulties in deciding what constituted an extension of an existing enterprise.
I was pressed, however, by a number of speakers in the course of the debate on the Second Reading to agree to make it clear that help could be given for the expansion of existing enterprises and I must admit that it would be illogical not to do so, because we can foresee circumstances in which the expansion of existing enterprises might be just as beneficial to the area concerned or just as productive of increased employment there as the establishment of new enterprises.
I, therefore, am agreeing to make this amendment to make it clear that Foras Tionscal can consider applications from existing concerns seeking to extend their operations. But I think I should also make it clear that such help will only be given where a new form of activity is being undertaken by some existing concern; in other words, I would not like Foras Tionscal to be dealing with applications for the renovation of obsolete plant or of repairing defects in existing equipment which should have been remedied by good management. They should be asked to deal only with propositions such as the erection of a new wing to a factory, the extension of a new line of production that might conceivably have been done by a new undertaking as a separate enterprise.
My anxiety in this matter is perhaps excessive but I want to make it quite clear that the purpose of the Bill is to encourage new enterprises and activities in the undeveloped areas rather than provide any sustenance or support for existing enterprises which, because of bad management or defective planning, are getting into difficulties.
However, I think the case urged by Deputies for making it clear that the expansion of existing enterprises could be considered is sound and that is why I am making this amendment.
I think the Minister's decision in this regard is sound subject to one qualification. I think it must inevitably give grave scandal if Oireachtas Éireann gives grants of money to industrial plants at present operating in the province of Connacht because you will be confronted with the situation that people who have the reputation locally of being relatively wealthy people are receiving grants from the Government whereas they are living surrounded by people in relatively humble circumstances, whose minds never even conceived the possibility of asking the Government for a sum of money similar to what their wealthy neighbour appears to have received.
Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that to make this decision on the basis of grants not only puts him but I think puts us all in an impossible position. There is, however, a way out. I put it to the Minister that it is a perfectly legitimate thing to give a loan free of interest if there is an industry which is functioning in this part of the country which has not adapted itself to the changing times sufficiently rapidly and is now threatened with possible destruction because it has not equipped itself to meet the situation, and it cannot raise the capital because the interest on the capital necessary to bring its equipment up to date would cripple it, within our existing tax structure. I think that the Minister knows that if an old business tries to raise capital to re-equip itself now, by the time taxation has finished with its profits, it is put to the pin of its collar to pay the interest, not to speak of repayment of the loan. If the Minister would say: "I will in this case lend £3,000 or £4,000 if they satisfy me they are going to put the money into this project of modernisation and development so that if a person puts £1 into the creation of a new industry or into the rehabilitation of a rundown industry, to create more employment and diversity of employment in the province of Connacht or these other areas, I shall make that £1 in effect do the work of £4 or £5 by advancing by way of loan to be repaid in 20 equal annual instalments of 5 per cent. of the capital"——
The Government has that power already.
I do not think the Government has power to lend money without interest.
Not without interest.
That is what I am asking. I am asking that instead of giving the Minister power to give a grant to a man who looks to people in the area relatively to be a plutocrat, we should give him power to give a loan. Say we are advancing A B £20,000 for the next 20 years. He must pay back £1,000 a year to the Government. He is getting no grant and he will not be free from his obligation to pay back £1,000 a year until the loan is completely extinct. I think that is the practical thing to do.
Would that not arise more relevantly on Section 5? This is the definition section. Section 5 will give the Deputy the opportunity to argue that matter.
I think it is madness for Oireachtas Éireann to give the Minister authority to give a grant of a substantial sum of money to a relatively wealthy man but I think to give him a loan which will be repayable over 20 years would command the assent and approval of his neighbours, rich and poor. The giving of a grant to him will give rise to a scandal.
I think the amendment proposed by the Minister is a desirable one. The method by which it is to be operated can be debated on another section. I think the Minister is right in taking this power and we can discuss the matter further on Section 5.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3.
I move amendment No. 2:—
In sub-section (1) to delete paragraph (b).
When I was addressing myself to the Bill on Second Reading, I pointed out that this was a power I did not like. When a Minister takes power to add something by Order, and it requires a deputation or representations from some body to be made to him, there is something of the procedure of the mendicant about it and I do not like that that is necessary. I would much prefer if the areas to be served by this particular Act were set out in the Act. It would be declared that these were the areas which had this right by statute and we would not then be dependent on the whims of a Minister as to whether a place should come in or should go out. While perhaps it is an advantage to have the provision there, I do not like the way in which it is to be operated or the possibilities which it opens up. I am not actuated by any objection to the Minister personally but I say it is a power that should not be vested in any Minister.
Perhaps it would be convenient if, on this amendment, I commented on the general form of the section because I take it the amendment is in some way linked up with other amendments in which Deputies seek to add other counties and areas to those named in sub-section (2). This section of the Bill caused me more difficulty in the framing of it than perhaps any other because I realised that, whatever I did, some legitimate criticism could be expressed of it. We can either apply the Bill to the whole country, which would make it meaningless because the purpose of the Bill is to induce industrial development from the eastern half to the western half of the country if possible, or else we can leave out the congested areas as defined in previous statutes and leave the whole operation of the Bill dependent on ministerial Order to apply to particular districts. The objection to that course, which I had originally in mind to follow, is that it obscures the main purpose of the Bill. If we frame the Bill merely with a provision that an undeveloped area is what the Minister declares to be an undeveloped area, then it will be less obvious that its purpose is to give this attraction to industry to move west rather than east.
We, therefore, decided to take, mainly for the purpose of emphasising in a special way the purpose of the Bill, the congested areas as defined in previous statutes. The advantage of following that course is that it removed any suggestion that the counties or areas which are set out in paragraph (2) were determined by any process of selection at the present time. These congested areas have been defined in statute for a long number of years and defined in statute for purposes somewhat analogous to that which inspired the Bill. At the same time it was quite obvious to us that it would be argued that there are areas in the country which are as undeveloped as any of these congested areas, where the economic circumstances are practically the same and where a new industry would be at the same or somewhat the same disadvantage as it would be in the congested areas as defined here. Therefore, we adopted this device of saying that the Bill must apply to the congested districts as defined in the previous legislation and may apply to other areas.
I would be the last to deny that West Cavan, North Longford and part of West Limerick, or any of those areas which are more or less similar in economic conditions to adjoining areas set out in the Bill, are as much in need of the type of help which this Bill offers, if there is to be any industrial development there at all, as the congested areas defined.
If it would be of any help to Deputies for me to put it on the record now, I would have no hesitation in saying that on getting an industrial proposition from any such district, I would let it go to this board to be established, An Foras Tionscail, to decide whether there was in fact competitive disadvantage in the location which it would be possible in the manner proposed in the Bill to remove and, if the board thought there was, to make an Order bringing in that area. I urge Deputies, however, not to seek to amend the definition of congested areas as set out, not because it is intended to confine the Bill to these areas or to exclude from its benefits areas like West Cavan, North Longford and West Limerick or other areas adjacent to the congested districts where conditions are similar, but because if we do attempt to amend the definition of the congested areas, we will get ourselves into considerable trouble. The definition of the congested areas was decided on a calculation which related population to valuation. We could easily, if we wanted to do it, amend that formula or get some other formula, and then find out what results it would give us when applied to individual counties.
I think Deputy MacEoin, as any other Longford Deputy, would have difficulty in defending a proposal to extend this Bill to some areas in North Longford and not to other parts of Longford. I think he would be compelled by local considerations to urge that the whole of Longford should be included. Deputies from Cavan and Deputies from Limerick would find themselves in the same position. In my view, it is not merely wiser but simpler to leave the Bill as it stands, to take the definition of the congested areas as laid down in a number of existing Acts, and to give power to somebody to extend the Bill to other areas where economic conditions are similar and where a new industry would have equivalent competitive disadvantages.
I considered whether that power of extending the areas should be given to An Foras Tionscal or kept by the Minister, but my conclusion was that it was wiser to keep it in the hands of the Minister, because An Foras Tionscal will be primarily concerned with the administration of the fund entrusted to it. It will be composed of people with special qualifications for that purpose, but they will not necessarily be familiar with the economic conditions in these areas and it would be unreasonable to ask them to carry out an investigation of these conditions to make themselves familiar with them before coming to a decision. It is far more convenient for the Minister to get any information which he would require to enable him to make a decision from the Central Statistics Office or any other source. In fact, there will not be much difficulty in making a decision because in the areas which everybody knows are similar in character to the congested areas and which are not likely to secure industrial development except helped in this way a new industrial enterprise would have competitive disadvantages because of the location, and the Minister will have no difficulty in deciding what those areas are. I think, however, that if we try either to alter the definition of congested areas in the Bill or, as Deputy MacEoin's amendment would achieve, confine the Bill solely to the congested areas——
To the areas set out in the statutes.
Does the Deputy think that we here are a suitable body to decide that on any realistic basis? We could decide it only on the basis of general knowledge.
I shall argue that on the other amendments.
I ask the Deputy to remember that the congested areas, as defined in legislation, were defined on the basis of a formula of relationship of population to valuation. If we depart from that definition, we have to get some other formula to proceed upon or else agree that any Deputy who wants to name an area could have it put into the Bill, but that, I think, would have serious consequences.
I think that in most of what the Minister says he has more or less the same ideas as Deputy MacEoin. I also rather imagine that if the Bill were to have been applied to the congested areas, it would have been much more satisfactory. I smile, and I am sure many eastern Deputies smile, when we see these various amendments down to include Leitrim, part of Longford, portion of this and that and this townland and the other. I rather imagine that Deputy Allen and I could argue a case for the parish of Kilrush in Wexford or for some State assistance for the promotion of industry in New Ross. We could very well argue a case for assistance to industries in the four major towns in Wexford.
That is not the point at issue.
It is not, but I am taking up what the Minister said. If we did that, I imagine the Bill would be a huge joke. I do not think the Minister should have power to apply the Act to any other areas that he considers suitable for assistance. As a matter of fact, I rather imagine that this Bill will go some distance towards decentralisation, but I rather think in the wrong way. I may be the only Deputy to approach this Bill from this particular point of view. What struck me rather forcibly was that the congested areas listed here comprise in the main the counties of Connacht. I remember that Cromwell banished the decent Irish people from the North, East and part of the South to Connacht. It was, "To Hell or Connacht." We have there tens of thousands of people who are trying to exist in what Cromwell considered to be the worst part of the country. We are trying to keep these tens of thousands there.
It is true that there has been an industrial revolution to some small extent in this country and that Connacht has changed somewhat from what it was in Cromwell's time. But if we think that we are going to industrialise Connacht or the congested areas, I think we have another guess coming. I do not imagine the Minister, for whom I have a lot of respect, is so foolish as to imagine that we can industrialise even in a very small way the Province of Connacht or the congested districts.
In this particular section, power should be given to the board, not to the Minister, to come to the assistance of industries or of industrialists who propose to start business in all parts of the country, because I rather imagine that one result of this Bill will be that there will be unfair competition. Business people and industrialists in the Province of Leinster consider that there is unfair competition between them and manufacturers in the City of Dublin. I could quote one particular case in my constituency of a furniture factory. It is not a very big business. I think, however, that this particular firm will not be very pleased if a similar type of factory is to be subsidised in a place situated, say, about 100 miles from the City of Dublin. That firm in Wexford Town will be labouring under the same difficulties and disadvantages as the firm situated in the West 100 miles from Dublin.
I trust that the board in determining the people to whom they will give assistance will take all these factors into consideration and preserve that balance whereby there will not be unfair competition so far as the industries established in the West will be concerned.
I think, though I do not believe it properly arises under this amendment, that the first effort Fianna Fáil made to industrialise the West and to relieve the economic situation there was the establishment of the Tuam beet factory. I think that is recognised as one of the biggest mistakes Fianna Fáil ever made. I have no political axe to grind in this. I must confess I could not persuade the last Government, of which I was a junior member, or some of my colleagues who were of the same opinion even though politically opposed to me, that that factory should be transferred to somewhere in the South, preferably New Ross, and that the building itself should not be closed down but should be used for some purpose, such as the manufacture of artificial manures, in order not to inflict hardship on those at present employed there.
Every year the managing director of Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann has submitted in his report that the Tuam factory is not an economic venture. To-day, beet grown by farmers in Wexford, Carlow and Kilkenny is being sent up there via Carlow to keep the factory going. I say that merely to sound a note of warning in order to ensure that the board will not lash money around all over the West to establish white elephants there. Undoubtedly the Tuam beet factory is a white elephant. The western Deputies will not agree with me on that but I respectfully submit that that was a blunder by Fianna Fáil away back in the 1930's. That blunder was not made by the experts who were studying the problem at the particular time.
I agree that if the Minister has the right or power to determine the area to which the Act will apply there is a possibility that it may be very well used.
I think the view expressed by the Minister counteracts the view expressed by Deputy General MacEoin. I have mentioned that in my own constituency we hope that at some period certain areas will be included such as Passage West, Kinsale and Bandon.
Put them in now.
In time they can be included by Order of the Minister. If we try to put every area in at this stage probably nothing will be done and I believe it is wiser to have the provision there that at any time when the Minister, no matter of what Government he may be a member, is fully convinced that an area is not alone congested but also depressed he can include it under the Bill. If the resources are available and there is a certain amount of capital for the establishment of an industry, then the concessions being given to the present congested districts under this Bill can be made available to other areas.
Under this amendment, I take it every Deputy will begin making suggestions as to what he considers to be a congested or depressed area in order to have it included in the Bill. I think that is wrong. Deputies may have a good knowledge of the difficulties that exist in certain areas but we are not at the moment in a position to pass judgment as to what other areas should be included. I think the present provision is the lesser of two evils. It is better to have that power there so that if the Minister, having taken everything into consideration and with the advice of experts available to him, decides that an area should be included it will be time enough to consider its inclusion then.
I would prefer that the Minister should exercise this power rather than anybody else because the Minister is responsible to this House and he is susceptible to representations made to him. What I do object to is having to make representations to him so that one must come to him and say: "Dear Mr. Minister, we are in a bad way in X place and we want you to do something for us." One will have to come like a mendicant as the Irish tenant farmers did in days gone by and the possibility is that one may be thrown out. On the other hand, if the Minister is susceptible to political influence he must bow to one's demand. Whatever is done should be done by statute so that everybody will know to what exactly people are entitled.
If people think it is unwise to include the areas of which they have knowledge, but which are not included under this Bill, I will argue here and now for certain areas. I disagree with the Minister when he says that the congested areas were established because of density of population and so on. That was only part of it. I remember the evidence tendered by the various counties before the Congested Districts Commission and I know why certain counties were excluded.
I think that was the Gaeltacht Commission, not the Congested Districts Commission.
You are not that old.
This commission was set up in 1902 or 1903. I can turn up the records of the evidence tendered at the particular time. What I am arguing on this amendment is that the principle that the Minister can grant a favour by including an area is wrong; vice versa, he can punish an area by excluding it. If one gives him power to put them in, one also gives him power to keep them out. If it is there by Order, it must be at his will and pleasure and at the will and pleasure of the Government. It is on the principle of that section that I am arguing. If the House is of opinion that somebody should have the power, then I think the best person to exercise it is the Minister. I do not care how political he is or how politically-minded he may become because, in the ultimate, he has responsibility to this House. I am prepared to give the Minister the power which, I think, he ought to have. He can answer to the House. I would much prefer that the Minister would have the power rather than some person over whom we have no control except, perhaps, the power of dismissal. Then we would have a row.
I think the Minister should carefully consider the whole matter of taking this power. There is a great inclination on the part of Governments and of civil servants, in particular, to give Ministers the power practically to legislate by Order. We have that in practically every Bill coming before us. The Minister is given power to do something which this House itself should do. I do not think that is wise. I think that the Minister and the Government should seriously consider this question not only in regard to this Bill but to every Bill, that is, the question of letting us have statute law and not law by regulation or by Order. That is a thing which, I think, has gone too far already and is not in the interests of the country.
The Congested Districts Board was set up in 1891. I do not think the Deputy was very much interested in its proceedings then. The congested districts were defined as areas where more than 20 per cent. of the population lived in electoral divisions of which the total rateable valuation, when divided by the number of the population, gave a sum of less than £1 10s. 0d. for each individual. That formula was applied and the result accepted regardless of any other consideration. If we could get a corresponding formula now and apply it we could equally accept the result with a reservation, however, that the aim is to induce private enterprise away from the East if it can be done. I think we would have that aim, irrespective of the applicability of that or any other formula to a particular western county or to any county on the western seaboard.
I had thought of several alternatives to what is in the Bill as it stands, that the Minister can extend it to other areas by Order. I do not think that will be done in the circumstances visualised by Deputy MacEoin, of local deputations coming up and saying "We are in a bad way in this area" and "Make an Order extending the Bill to our district," assuming that there are that many projects forthcoming. It will be some group of people who propose to engage in an industry coming to the Department of Industry and Commerce and saying: "We are agreeable to locate this industry in some of those districts, West Cavan or North Longford or some other, provided we can get for that industry the same help which we would get if we had gone into one of the congested areas" and on that case the Minister would make his decision. The amount of help would be decided by the board, the board being empowered to apportion the help on the basis of the competitive disadvantage which the project would suffer by being in that area.
Most Deputies are thinking of this Bill functioning as a result of the activities of local development committees or organisations of that kind. I hope that such committees will be formed and will get some useful projects put forward for consideration, but I think it is likely to be far more effective in another way. Already, there are some people who have shown an interest in the provisions of the Bill, people who were contemplating engaging in industrial enterprise in any event. Every other day we have individuals or groups of individuals coming to the Department of Industry and Commerce to discuss ideas they have for establishing a new industry, or for participating in some industry already established, and asking for information about the market for their products, about the protection in force or the help which the Government might give. When that happens in the future, the official discussing their ideas with them can inform them of the help the Government might be able to afford. He will be able to say to them that if they go to some of those districts, then, over and above the help which they would normally get, they will get this additional help subject to the approval and decision of An Foras Tionscal. It is in that way that any development that takes place under the Bill will, in the main, be secured.
If there was in the minds of Deputies any apprehension that the Minister might respond to political pressure in the making of Orders, or might make such Orders for political purposes, I would be quite willing to put into the Bill a provision requiring such Orders to be submitted to the Dáil for approval. I do not think, however, that it would be desirable to do that. That might help to arouse doubts in the minds of people promoting an industry. The position would be that they would not know, finally, whether they were going to get help until the Order had been approved by the Dáil. On the other hand, I think it would be unwise to limit the Minister's power to extend the Bill to counties which are contiguous to those named in the Bill, because if other counties are named for that purpose no Minister on earth could resist the pressure that would be exerted on him to make an Order to extend the Bill to the whole of a county.
I realise that it would have been easier for me to get the Bill through the House if, instead of being in this form, I had brought in a Bill which said that an undeveloped area was an area that was declared to be an undeveloped area by ministerial Order. The argument against that is that it would have made the purpose of the Bill less clear. It was only by naming the congested areas in the Bill that it was made abundantly clear that the purpose of the Bill was to get development towards the western seaboard counties.
Deputy Corish referred to the establishment of the Tuam beet factory. I would not like any false deductions to be drawn from his observations regarding it. It is quite true that when putting the beet factory in Tuam the Government acted against all the expert advice which they had sought before determining the location of the three factories on which we decided on at that time. If we were to rely on expert advice, however, there would be no industrial development in the West. The experts will always say that the most suitable location for a major industrial project is at a large port or in a large centre of population, or where the facilities of a large town are available. They nearly always exclude the West of Ireland. If, therefore, we are going to organise industrial development there, we have to act in the teeth of expert advice of that kind. We need not be too anxious about the result. It is quite true that the Tuam beet factory never got in the area its normal supply of beet. Beet had to be transported to it from other areas. For a long time the energies of the Government were directed towards getting enough beet grown in the area by the farmers there. Now another development is being attempted. The beet company has taken large areas of bog, the aim being to develop these to grow enough beet. Should that aim be realised, there will be a further benefit conferred on the area.
There was a factory established in Castlebar by private enterprise which, I understand, is exporting more than half its production to European countries at the present time. That factory would never have been established there if purely commercial considerations had applied. I think it was Emerson who said: "If you invent something new, even a new mousetrap then, although you live in the depths of the woods, the world will beat a path to your door." And who knows we may get, through the ability of some individual or the enterprise of some group, an industry which can develop, even in the unpromising conditions now existing in the congested areas, to be of major importance. You do not know till you try and, while State enterprise may always be cautious—whenever a Bill for the promotion of State enterprise is brought to the Dáil there is always a demand on the part of Deputies for the production of the expert reports upon which the Government took its decisions—private enterprise will take a chance. That is why I think we are far more likely to get development of industry generally in the West through private enterprise, assisted by the State, rather than by State corporations. The State would naturally be confined to industries of a kind that had not previously existed in the country while private enterprise, even under this Bill, can engage in any industry getting no more help through Foras Tionscal than it requires to offset competitive disadvantages attaching to location. It would be wrong I agree, in the light of what Deputy Corish said, to give an industry in the West such help that it would have a substantial competitive advantage over an industry in Wexford or any other east coast county. The aim should be to level up. Deputy Corish mentioned furniture factories.
Not furniture in particular, just factories.
It induces me to say that there are numerous industries throughout the country producing kitchen furniture and farm furniture and engaging in other enterprises of that kind, which I do not think should be assisted at all because they are functioning now in normal competitive conditions. They have the advantage of a local market in which they have not to bear heavy transport costs to other areas. It is only where there is a competitive disadvantage that help should be given and the help should be related to the competitive disadvantage.
In a way I would be very anxious to get agreement from the Dáil on this section, but I would despair of that if we were to depart from the existing definition of the congested areas. This definition is taken from the 1909 Land Act and to attempt to attach on to that other areas—I would have no hesitation in putting in West Cavan, North Longford and West Limerick, but if I put them in, many Deputies would say the next area is in need, if not quite the same need, of help. I know there is one Deputy who wants to include an area in County Louth. But I do not think that that help should be given under this Bill which is for taking industry away from the East to the West. It does not mean that no State help would be given to an industry anywhere else. If it was given, it would be given under some other measure.
The Minister has given an indication of what his intentions are towards the other amendment. If I had known them when moving this amendment, I would have been much more specific. Let us get these two points clearly. The Minister says that the main purpose of the Bill is to develop the congested areas. He is going to give a sort of prompting to the people of those areas for the purpose of this industrial development. I think he is right in doing that but I want him to carry on the main purpose of the Bill so that the same thing would be done in those other areas which are only excluded from the congested areas for certain reasons.
I am personally prepared to give the Deputy this assurance: that I would regard the areas of West Cavan, North Longford and part of West Limerick as quite eligible for inclusion under the Bill. If propositions came from those areas I would not hesitate to make an Order under this Bill to include them. I think it is unwise for us to get away from a definition of the congested areas that is already there because we would get ourselves into a lot of difficulties.
That is some of the distance anyhow. I am satisfied with getting that assurance from the Minister. That does not get over the other difficulty that you will not always be the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
I am speaking for myself personally.
That is all you can do. This is something big that can have far reaching effects. The amount of money could be extended at some other stage; you cannot stop some other Minister for Finance making it £7,000,000.
Or putting County Dublin into the Bill. But it would be a complete reversal of policy.
But it can be done by the Minister signing his name. On the other hand, if it had to come through the House it would be a different thing. The Minister has been correct when he said he considered getting Dáil sanction for the Order. He is quite correct in the line he takes to do that without unduly holding up the development. I think it would be bad if development were held up for the purpose of deciding at length what the Dáil thought. However, I do think it is a better principle but in my anxiety to have the work proceeded with I will not hold up the matter any longer. I have drawn attention to the danger.
The Minister has given an undertaking binding himself and his Government —and his predecessor has given it—to ensure that there will be no partisanship in it, that it will be done in the most objective manner and in the interests of the people. I accept that and I, therefore, withdraw the amendment.
In regard to the question of bringing in a new Order I assume that if, as the Tánaiste has just described, there were indications that an industry would be started in an area which is not included in the Bill and the Minister subsequently made an Order including it in the Bill, the particular group would then have to approach the board and the board would have to be satisfied that the industrial undertaking was worth while and would be a permanent benefit to the area.
You are quite right. The making of an Order by the Minister does not necessarily mean that the industry will get help. It is the board that decides that, on the basis of the rules laid down.
Surely that guarantee in regard to a Minister's Order in relation to an industrial undertaking is a guarantee that no political suggestions can be made if the board have power to reject the Order.
You are very innocent.
If a particular group in Sligo approach this board it does not necessarily mean that they would get financial assistance.
No, it does not.
It is a port town.
If we are going to get industrial development at all it will be mainly in the urban areas of the West. There are very few industries that can be successfully operated except where there are transport facilities, gas supply, water supply, and so on. Personally I would be quite satisfied if we could see substantial development beginning in the towns of the congested area even though it meant that employment problems there had to be solved by the people moving in from other areas for employment.
The particular power and the only power which the Minister has under this Order is in relation to areas and not in relation to the technical side of the work—purely area.
He will have no power to interfere with the decision of the board, nor will the board have to submit decisions for his approval.
If the Minister makes an Order under the Bill he will have to consider it as such.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 3:—
In sub-section (2), paragraph (a), line 24, before "Leitrim" to insert "Cavan".
The people of Cavan have been very dissatisfied because Cavan has not been included under this Bill which is designed to aid industrial development in undeveloped areas. From a consideration of the facts and statistics which I propose to place before this House, I trust the Minister will accept this amendment. I would like to ask the Minister what were the qualifications or the determinate factors which guided the Government in selecting counties or portions of counties. Were these based on the number of home assistance recipients, on congestion, or were they based on the numbers of people who failed to register for Fianna Fáil in the last election? I wonder did any major blunder occur in regard to Cavan's geographical position, or was there an assumption on the part of the designers of this Bill that we were not part of the Republic but were governed by Stormont?
I have here statistics of emigration figures which I will read out—emigration figures for the years 1936 and 1946. These are as follows: Cavan, 8.2 per cent.; Sligo, 7.5 per cent.; Leitrim, 12.4 per cent.; Roscommon, 6.5 per cent.; Donegal, 4.2 per cent.; Galway, 1.8 per cent.; Mayo, 8.2 per cent.; Kerry, 4.2 per cent. That is an illustration that, as regards emigration figures, we are second to Leitrim.
I will now produce further statistics which will show we should not have been excluded from this industrial Bill. These figures relate to home assistance recipients, and surely people who are well off do not look for home assistance. I am giving the 1949 figures:— Cavan, 2.6 per cent.; Sligo, 1.24 per cent.; Leitrim, 1.51 per cent.; Roscommon, .1 per cent.; Donegal, 1.01 per cent.; Galway, .99 per cent.; Mayo, 1.3 per cent.; Kerry, 2.08 per cent. These figures clearly illustrate the fact that the number of home assistance recipients in Cavan is nearly twice what it is in other counties. This clearly demonstrates the point that the Government should have included Cavan in this Undeveloped Areas Bill.
I will mention a few counties which have farms under 15 acres:—Cavan, 34 per cent.; Leitrim, 27 per cent.; Galway, 26 per cent. These figures clearly illustrate that the congestion in Cavan is much higher than in some of the counties that have been included under this Bill.
The Minister may ask, if he accepted this amendment, what could be done in Cavan. Many advances could be made there towards industrialisation. In Cavan, we have an abundant supply of raw material for ground limestone. If we had the money and the machinery this material which has had to be imported from the Counties of Donegal, Dublin, Louth and Monaghan, could be developed in Cavan. Not alone would it give employment, but it would bring our land back to a state of fertility and production.
As the Minister knows, West Cavan is a barren, mountainy country, but if money were made available it could be utilised for the development of afforestation. I think the Minister would be well advised to see that forestry inspectors are sent down there. They would undoubtedly come back and give him evidence that more employment would be provided if afforestation were introduced there. While afforestation would be on its way, it would give employment to our people who are leaving by the dozen every day.
We have also in West Cavan a coal mine at Gubaveeny—a place where employment is needed. Although this coal mine is in its crude state at the moment, the coal there will be found to be of very good quality.
If money could be spent on industrial development in Cavan it would not only solve the problem of unemployment in that district but it would also, in no small way, give us the material which we have to obtain with great difficulty at the moment.
Cavan and Donegal have grown flax very extensively. I feel that if a linen factory were erected there it would give employment to our people, especially on the processing part which has to take place at the present time at the Belfast spinning mills. I would strongly recommend to the Minister to use his influence in that direction.
While I welcome the effort to help these undeveloped areas, I cannot see why Cavan is not included, and I sincerely hope that it will be included. Nobody can dispute the fact that we in Cavan are a people who are worthy of encouragement. I cannot see why we should have been omitted, and I would recommend to the Minister when the Report Stage comes along that he will include Cavan under the scope of this Bill. If the Minister will not accept this amendment, I would suggest to him that he should call this new Bill, which I am afraid has been nicknamed, a Gerrymandering Bill designed to recover lost seats. We in Cavan cannot see why this Bill is applied to places such as Roscommon and why it cannot be applied to Cavan. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the position and to include Cavan as suggested in my amendment.
May I ask the Minister, is the definition of the congested areas as it is given here in subsections (2) and (3) the same—
As in the Land Act of 1909.
I have a hazy remembrance that portions of Cavan and Monaghan were included in the congested districts.
This is the definition as scheduled to the Land Act of 1909. The original congested districts were a still more restricted area, if my information is correct. Under the first Land Act of 1891, under which was established the Congested Districts Board, they were defined as parts of Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry only.
In none of the Land Acts was Cavan or Monaghan mentioned?
Not as part of the congested area.
In view of the Minister's previous statement and the undertaking he gave, I think that we should discuss amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5 together.
And perhaps amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9.
I think there is no point in moving the amendments separately when the Minister has taken a certain view on them. All that we can do is make our arguments on them now, instead of moving them separately. Let me say in regard to the amendments which Deputy O'Reilly and I have put in, that we want to stress the main object of the Bill and to apply it to those areas so that we can give an incentive to the local people to put their best efforts into this project. If these areas are included, an incentive is given to the local people and to private enterprise to come forward to give the assistance necessary to make the Bill a success. It is, I think, agreed that the Bill can best be made a success through local initiative and private enterprise. By including at an early stage an area such as Longford, you make sure of getting the support of the people of that area for the project which the Bill envisages. I remember quite distinctly when I was five or seven years old the evidence that was tendered by certain people to the commission set up to establish the congested areas and the criticism which was made at the time of members of Parliament for County Longford because of their failure to support the local people, in North Longford in particular, who came up to Dublin to give evidence on the proposal to include North Longford as part of the congested areas. The average valuation in North Longford—that is in the areas which I have set out in amendment No. 7—is under £2 and the number of people resident in the area is more than the number resident in even the most congested areas in either Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Donegal or any other place I know. The people are very hard working and industrious and if they get the opportunity or the incentive, there is no doubt they will give the Minister the co-operation that may be needed.
When Fianna Fáil came into office one of the first things they did was to declare these electoral divisions— I do not know the exact wording of the declaration—the equivalent of a congested area so that the benefits accruing to congested areas might also be applied to that area. As I stated on Second Reading, good work was done under that Order but what I objected to then was that the Minister could by a stroke of the pen put in North Longford and by another stroke of the pen take it out.
No. Once it is in it is in.
That is what has happened in the past. As the Minister knows, once there is a precedent established in a Department it is like the laws of the Medes and Persians ; it cannot be changed. The precedent is nearly equal to a statute. I am therefore moving that the Minister should accept as congested areas the areas mentioned in amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5. Failing that I think that he should accept amendment No. 7. In doing that, he would be doing only what this Government did under a previous administration. I am merely asking that he should now do by statute what was previously done by Order. If amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5 were accepted perhaps amendment No. 7 would not be really essential but if the three first amendments are not accepted I would ask the Minister at least to accept amendment No. 7.
I rise to support the proposal that Cavan should be included in what are known as the undeveloped areas. I think the Minister has already admitted that West Cavan should be brought within the scope of the Bill.
It was stated that this particular area of West Cavan was not known as a congested district. My information is that it was and is still, because at the moment there are two Departments' overseers employed in that area for the purpose of distributing seed oats and potatoes at a cheap rate to poor farmers. That in itself shows that it is a congested area.
Deputy O'Reilly has referred to coal mines in West Cavan. I was on a deputation some time ago to the Department of Industry and Commerce in regard to a coal mine which was being opened down there by a farmer. That farmer spent over £4,000 to make a road into this mine. He was at the end of his resources when he had spent this money and had no more funds at his disposal and the result was that he had to give up the project. That is one of the reasons, as well as others, which convince me that this area of West Cavan should be included in this Bill. I should like all Cavan to be included, but the eastern part of Cavan could not be classed in the same way as the western part. I hear a lot of talk about "west of the Shannon". I should like to remind Deputies that the Shannon rises in Cavan and that part of it is west of the Shannon.
I put down a question yesterday in connection with the quantity of land offered to the Department of Forestry for afforestation purposes and the answer that I got was about 5,000 acres. Most of the land offered is in West Cavan. That is proof to me that the people of this area want assistance in some way or other. I also put down a question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to mineral deposits in West Cavan and the Minister stated that there were mineral deposits there. The fact that the Minister admitted that should be a reason why Cavan, especially West Cavan, should be included in the Bill. I do not like to say hard things about anybody, but I cannot understand why the Minister for Local Government who sits in the Cabinet had not this part of Cavan, or all Cavan, included in the Bill. I ask the Minister to help out in this respect and see that we will get every help in regard to new industries there. For that reason, I support this amendment and I ask the House and the Government to accept it. If it is not accepted, I am afraid we shall have to have a division on it and I shall have to look on it in a way which I do not like and in which other Deputies look on it— that this Bill was conceived and designed more for political or Party purposes than from a national point of view.
I cannot quite follow how it could be argued that it is for a Party purpose. Let me start off by removing any false impression which might be created by the remarks of Deputy O'Reilly. Cavan is not excluded from the Bill, nor is any other county for that matter. As it stands, the Bill must apply to certain named counties and areas and it may apply to others. I have argued against departing from the definition of the congested areas set out in the Bill, because I think it is safe to stick to that in view of its long association in the public mind with a certain part of the country and the fact that it is something we did not think of ourselves because it was taken from existing Acts unchanged.
It is a very old definition.
Yes. I said that personally I would not have the slightest hesitation, if a proposal for a new industry came to me from West Cavan, North Longford or certain other areas, in making the necessary Order under this Bill which would enable An Foras Tionscail to consider whether any assistance was required. Deputy O'Reilly, Deputy Tully and other Deputies, if they had moved amendments, would find themselves in this position, that they would hesitate to exclude any part of Cavan. I am sure that if they attempted to define certain townlands in Cavan for the purpose of including them in the Bill and left other townlands out, they would have some difficulty in explaining to residents in an adjacent townland why they were not included.
Is it not true that Cavan as a whole, without any assistance under this Bill or any corresponding legislation, has already had a significant development of industries? I may say with good reason that industrial development in Cavan, whether this Bill is passed or not, has not stopped. But, if we include the whole of Cavan, how can we argue that we should not include Monaghan? Are not the circumstances there the same as in Cavan? If you do not exclude Monaghan, how can you exclude Cooley in North Louth? Once you start departing from the clear definition of congested areas so as to include other areas, you will be driven back in such a way that the whole country will be in the Bill and the purpose of the Bill will be lost.
The purpose of the Bill is to attract industrial development over towards the West. I urge, therefore, that these amendments be not pressed. I do not think that any Deputy need have any apprehension that any Minister for Industry and Commerce would not deal with the areas of West Cavan which have been mentioned, North Longford and other areas contiguous to the congested areas as being similar in character and, consequently, entitled to the help of this Bill if, in an individual case, An Foras Tionscal decided that help was necessary.
Reference was made to mineral development. I already expressed the view that, generally speaking, mineral development would not qualify, in my opinion, for help under this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to give certain financial help to projects which are developed in the western area but which, without that help, would have been located in the East. Mineral development must normally take place where the minerals are and, consequently, there can be no question of that project transferring somewhere else. That does not mean that help will not be available for mineral development. It has been given in the past. There is a proposition before the Department in relation to the coal deposits in Cavan to which Deputies referred. That application can be considered without any reference to this Bill and would normally be considered without reference to it. In fact, I think it is necessary to emphasise what I have said already, that help in the special circumstances contemplated when this Bill was framed to offset competitive disadvantage will be given on the decision of An Foras Tionscal, but other forms of help can and will be given, as in the past, to sound industrial propositions anywhere.
In my view, most of the worthwhile mineral deposits in the country can or will only be developed with Government help in some form, at least Government help to offset the heavy initial expenditure which sometimes has to be incurred before actual profit-earning can begin. There was also no help for the construction of roads or the removal of overburden or opening up of mineral deposits. Mineral development has been in progress now for a long number of years and it does not depend on this Bill whether or not that will continue.
I strongly urge the Dáil to leave the Bill as it stands. I think we are safe so long as we stand over the present definition of the congested areas because no Minister can stand up to a refusal to extend the Bill to an adjacent area of similar character if there is a sound proposition put up to him that should be submitted for consideration by Foras Tionscal. But even if the Minister makes an Order, it does not mean that help will be given. The decision as to what help or how much will be given will be taken by the organisation on its own initiative and will not be subject to any sort of Government interference.
Do I understand that a place like Leitrim, which is included for mineral development, is not included in this?
I do not want to be quite as specific as that. If there was any competitive disadvantage in working minerals I imagine that as far as mineral development is concerned any board functioning under this Bill would help. The fact that minerals happened to be located in one county rather than another is relatively unimportant because one can easily contemplate circumstances under which the processing of minerals in a particular place instead of somewhere else, or some other development of that kind, might be worth encouraging by giving financial assistance. For example, in one of the western counties at the moment there is a mine producing minerals which are exported in the raw state. I would be very keen personally to encourage any progress towards the processing of these minerals so that to a greater extent than at present the production of usable materials would be done here.
I am afraid I must press this amendment. As I said earlier, North Longford would have been included in the congested districts—
I agree, I think it is precisely similar.
—were it not for the fact that two members of Parliament held two completely different views at the time. Believe it or not, there is a local history attaching to it which even the best informed Minister in Dublin does not know.
I will not contend with the Deputy on local history.
I do not intend to resurrect that ancient battle. The facts are there. During the previous Fianna Fáil Administration the Minister did accept this area as a congested area. I want to put the people in North Longford on a par with their colleagues at the mouth of the Shannon because the Shannon is part and parcel of it and I want to give these people the incentive to move rapidly.
What I have said is sufficient incentive. North Longford need have no hesitation in asking that an Order will be made under the Bill.
I will accept that and trust the Minister.
I am quite sincere about that, because if I thought it worth while taking the risk I myself would have attempted a re-definition of the congested areas in order to include Cavan, North Longford and the west of West Limerick. But it would be an impossible task unless one could get a rigid formula which would make it quite clear that it was not political influence or personal bias which was at work.
I will take that. We will chance anything.
Amendment No. 4, by leave, withdrawn.
I am sorry the Minister cannot see his way to include the whole of Cavan. On the statistics I have placed before the House I cannot see why the whole of Cavan should not be included under the Bill. West Cavan is a congested area. I have gone into the baronies in East Cavan and I have found that emigration there has been equal to that in the baronies in the west of the county. I must push my amendment.
Is it too much to ask the Minister to include Cavan in view of the figures we have got?
You cannot include Cavan without including North Meath and Longford.
If the Minister includes Cavan and does not include North Longford I shall have something to say.
A number of new industries have been established in recent years in Cavan. Around the gypsum areas in Kingscourt one of the major industrial developments in the country is at present taking place. One could not regard East Cavan as an undeveloped area and leave out North Longford and North Meath. West Cavan is similar in economic circumstances to Leitrim but I would remind the House that there is already one quite useful factory there.
In other words, the Minister will not prevent Cavan applying to the board for financial assistance if there is any useful development which can be established there.
Certainly, and the Deputy need have no anxiety that West Cavan will not be considered in the same light as the other undeveloped areas.
Is it the Minister who decides to include other areas on his own initiative after representations have been made to him here or elsewhere?
That is so.
Then that can be done in Cavan, and Deputy O'Reilly has the same assurance that Deputy General MacEoin has.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 35; Níl, 67.
Tá
- Beirne, John.
- Belton, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Cafferky, Dominick.
- Cawley, Patrick.
- Collins, Seán.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, John A.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Dill n, James M.
- McQuillan, John.
- Madden, David J.
- Mannion, John.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton, William.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finan, John.
- Hession, James M.
- Hickey, James.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Lynch, John (North Kerry)
- MacEoin, Seán.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Redmond, Bridget M.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Bourke, Dan.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Breen, Dan.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- Fanning, John.
- ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McAuliffe, Patrick.
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maguire, Patrick J.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Laurence J.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Sweetman and D.J. O'Sullivan; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Amendment declared negatived.
Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.