It was moved earlier.
Committee on Finance. - Undeveloped Areas Bill, 1951—Committee Stage (Resumed).
Amendment No. 4 not moved.
Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 were taken with amendment No. 3. Amendment No. 4 was not moved. Amendment No. 6 is out of order.
On a point of order, may I ask on what grounds it has been ruled out of order?
On the grounds that it is outside the scope of the Bill as read a Second Time.
I may be stupid but I would still like to know on what grounds. Any legislation passed in this House is supposed to apply to the national territory which includes the whole of the 32 Counties and its islands.
I am not going to construe the Constitution, but even on that point—regarding the reintegration of the national territory— the district specifically set out is not within the scope of the Bill as read a Second Time.
Other amendments have been tabled to include Leitrim, Cavan and other places within the Twenty-Six Counties. If I might quote the Constitution, Article 3 says:—
"Pending the reintegration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory, the laws enacted by that Parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect."
I do not raise the feasibility of the implementation of the amendment but I respectfully submit that such an amendment is in order in view of the fact that we in this Dáil regard Ireland as being the 32 Counties and surrounding islands.
The Dáil has to take cognisance of the fact that the district mentioned is outside the jurisdiction of this State as at present constituted.
On a point of order, Article 3 of the Constitution states specifically "without prejudice", that the jurisdiction of Éire shall extend merely to the jurisdiction formerly exercised under the Constitution of Saorstát Éireann.
If the Deputy wishes, he may take it to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, but I have ruled it out of order.
Does that necessarily mean that if the Six Counties——
I am not going to discuss constitutional law with the Deputy.
The Deputy is not fit to discuss it. He is merely asking for information.
We are merely asking the amendment to give some relief.
The Deputy may discuss the matter on the section.
Even though we were told it would be quite possible that areas outside the areas mentioned in the Bill would be taken, does that mean they are all excluded?
The Six Counties evidently.
It means that the particular areas outside the jurisdiction of this State cannot be included in this Bill.
I make this point that it necessarily means that if the Six Counties comes within the jurisdiction of Dáil Éireann tomorrow morning, we must re-pass in this House hundreds and thousands of laws.
I cannot say what will happen when that happens.
I wish to ask a question. I welcome the Bill but I would ask that not alone would the three or four rural areas mentioned in Clare be included, but we want all Clare included. I have specific reasons for that inasmuch as there were industries in the urban parts——
The Deputy is on the wrong track entirely. This amendment proposes to include a county that is outside this State, where our laws do not operate at the present time. To pass laws here which would be inoperative in a county outside the jurisdiction of this State does not seem to the Chair to be within reason.
The Constitution gives this Dáil power to legislate for the 32 Counties.
The Deputy can raise the matter in another way, but I am ruling it out of order, as being outside the scope of the Bill as read a Second Time.
I move amendment No. 7:—
To add to sub-section (2) a new paragraph as follows:—
(d) The electoral areas of Ballinalee, Drumlish and that portion of the Granard Electoral Division comprised in the parish of Gowna in the Counties of Longford and Cavan.
On this particular amendment, I have already said practically as much as I wanted to say except that the Minister said that Deputies moving an amendment in respect of other counties would not like to specify positively the areas within the county, that they would not be prepared to select the areas. In this amendment, I have selected the areas which I know ought to be included and that evidence was tendered before a commission to include them at a particular time.
The charge was made that political considerations operated in connection with this Bill. I do not make that charge. I do say that in the course of your administration it was found that these particular electoral divisions could be classified and treated as congested districts. You did that for a number of years and then you took them away. They operated as a congested area, when it was included by Order, then you removed it again from that benefit by Order. I am asking you to put these electoral divisions in the Bill by statute and not by Order.
I appreciate that the Deputy has done something which other Deputies have not, in defining an area for which a strong argument for inclusion could be advanced. If I found that by accepting the amendment I would not leave myself open to a number of similar amendments which would be of more debatable character, I would do so. I would like, however, to assure Deputy MacEoin that, so far as I am concerned, the area concerned will be treated under this Bill precisely as if it was a congested district.
Amendment No. 7, by leave, withdrawn.
I did not want a vote of the House to turn it down.
I think, as far as the area is concerned, it will make no practical difference.
I intended to include it at some other point.
Amendment No. 8 not moved.
Mr. Coburn
I move amendment No. 9:—
To add to sub-section (2) a new paragraph as follows:—
(d) The electoral division of Carlingford.
I move this amendment because of the fact that Carlingford embraces, in addition to Carlingford itself, the area known as Omeath. As far as my memory goes, Omeath was looked upon 40 or 50 years ago as a Gaeltacht area. In fact, there was a Gaelic college there one time. It is a district which is very much akin to the districts on the western seaboard; it is mountainous and has very little good land, and the people there have to earn their living mostly by migrating during the summer months to places like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. I feel that, in all justice, this area has the same claim to be included in this Bill as have the areas which have, in fact, been included.
Another reason which prompted me to put down this amendment was that, at the moment, that area is more or less threatened with further unemployment due to the closing down of the Greenore line which has been a great boon to that area so far as the tourist trade is concerned. I can quite understand the Minister's difficulty in regard to the question of keeping that line open, but I want to remind him that it will have a detrimental effect on employment there.
So far as the development of particular areas in the future is concerned, I think that the people of Carlingford can put forward as good a claim as the areas which come under the scope of the Bill under discussion. The areas of Carlingford and Omeath are inhabited in the main by a very industrious type of people. I think I am correct in saying that the population per square mile there is greater than in any other area of the Twenty-Six Counties. In fact. I think it is the most thickly populated area in the country.
I would like to pay tribute to the industry and thrift of the inhabitants of the district. I would appeal to the Minister, if at all possible, to place this area on the same plane as the other areas mentioned in this Bill, namely Leitrim, Donegal, Sligo, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway and Kerry. Anybody visiting this area will see that it is very much akin to the areas to which I have referred, being a mountainous district and noted for its scenery. In fact, travelling through it, if one were not familiar with the district, it would appear as if one were travelling through the districts mentioned in the Schedule to this Bill.
I would appeal to the Minister to include this area for the reasons I have already mentioned; there is not any industry there, and there is a large incidence of migration each year. The young men and the young women go every summer to the Isle of Man and to other centres of tourism across Channel in order to eke out a livelihood for themselves and for their families. They return to their homes in wintertime and have to depend absolutely on what they have earned during the summer and on sheep rearing, etc. There is no such thing as anything approaching continued employment in that area which is a very thickly populated one. So I would make a final appeal to the Minister to bring it under the scope of the Bill.
I am aware that there are special problems in the Cooley area. I think the Deputy is aware that I have pledged myself to give all the assistance in my power to anybody undertaking industrial development there. The Deputy is aware, no doubt, that that pledge is in process of being redeemed. The Bill under discussion is primarily designed to give special assistance to industrial undertakings in the western portions of the country— assistance designed to offset the competitive disadvantage of western location. We would be made to look a bit foolish if we included, by special mention, an east coast town. In case the Deputy has in mind that the absence of any reference to Carlingford in the Bill would prevent assistance being given to that area as far as industrial development is concerned, I would like to correct him. So far as I am concerned, I will honour the undertaking I gave, and give whatever help is required to a sound industrial project in that area. I would be glad if the Deputy did not press his amendment here, because I do not think it would make any practical difference whether the area was mentioned or not. It seems to me that Foras Tionscal which is set up for a specific purpose, would be less sympathetic towards helping an industrial project in that area than would the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Mr. Coburn
As far as I understand it, on the Second Reading of this Bill you made a statement that other areas could be included.
Yes.
Mr. Coburn
You said you would bring in Carlingford.
The decision as to what amount of help would be given would be made by the board set up under the Bill. I think myself that Foras Tionscal would be less interested in an approach coming from an east coast town, having regard to their special function, than in projects coming from the areas mentioned in the Bill. I feel that the special circumstances of the Cooley area must be taken into account as a special problem rather than a portion of the problem with which this Bill is meant to deal.
Mr. Coburn
You mean that the Cooley district should be considered distinct from this Bill?
Yes.
Mr. Coburn
Apart altogether from this amendment, I would like the Minister to pay particular attention to the problems of the Cooley area.
Do I understand that the Minister will have nothing to do with the areas, and that that will be left to the board?
The board alone will have the right to decide what application should be helped and the amount to be given.
And the extra areas to be included?
The Minister does that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Perhaps I might make some remarks with reference to the effect of the section. The House will remember that concluding the Second Reading debate, I had only five minutes to speak and I did not deal with some of the points of detail that were raised in the debate. Some of these points of detail have been cleared up since but there were a couple of matters mentioned to-day to which I think it would be well to make reference now, so as to put the position clear. Under this section of the Bill, the board can provide premises or give other help to persons proposing to embark on industrial projects. I am anxious that there should be no misunderstanding as to how that section will be worked. First of all there must be a project. I mean that some group of people who have got some financial resources and the technical competence to run the particular industry they have in mind, must put up a proposition to establish a factory for the purpose of engaging in that industry.
Mr. Coburn
They must take the initiative?
Yes.
And they must have the technical competence?
They must be competent to manage the industry. The point I was trying to stress in speaking on Second Reading is that the board will decide upon what help is required by any particular project and will give that help, but they will have nothing more to do with the project, once it is started. From that on, the project will be on its own. It will succeed or fail according as its direction or management is competent.
Reference was made to the provision of technical help or advice to industrialists. That will be available in some measure through the Department of Industry and Commerce, not through the board. In other words, the Department of Industry and Commerce is not just bowing itself out of the picture of industrial development in the West and the services and help which it can give to persons engaging in any new industry in any part of the country will be equally available to persons engaging in industry in undeveloped areas. That help will be a continuing help; it will not be merely advice or help given at the initiation stage but will be available at all times to persons engaged in industry.
The fact that Foras Tionscal will not have this power of initiation was mentioned here during the Second Reading. That does not mean that the Government, or some Department of the Government, may not initiate projects in these areas but if they do, it will be under the authority of different legislation, existing or yet to be enacted, and any such project, to the extent that it requires help out of public funds, will get it under some other authority. That help will not come out of the funds provided under this Bill. The funds provided under this Bill will be administered by Foras Tionscal for the sole purpose of providing help for industrial projects in their initial stages.
Deputy Cosgrave referred to the industrial survey undertaken by American experts under an E.C.A. technical assistance project. I have not got the report of that survey yet. In any case, the second stage has yet to begin. The intention was that the experts who came here should take a look at the general position and then recommend a more detailed examination of certain possibilities for which a second team of experts would be required.
Any information forthcoming as a result of these surveys, or other technical assistance projects, will be available to anybody interested in the particular matters to which the reports refer. If, arising out of those reports, some people get the idea of developing a new industry in any of the undeveloped areas, they will come along, take it to the Department of Industry and Commerce, and bring it to the stage where they can put up a definite proposition to Foras Tionscal.
I mentioned already to-day, and it is no harm to repeat it, that I contemplate the Bill functioning in this way: People who come into the Department of Industry and Commerce with an idea for a new industry or with the intention of engaging in some industry will be told there whatever they want to know concerning the market possibilities or given the help which the Government would ordinarily give to people undertaking such developments. They will also be told that over and above the help and advice they may ordinarily get, if they locate that enterprise in one of the undeveloped areas, then they can get this further assistance, and it will be mainly as a result of these contacts and discussions that projects that might otherwise have developed in an eastern area, or which might not be developed at all because of financial problems, will nevertheless proceed in western areas.
It is true, as Deputies know, that most people who come at present to the Department of Industry and Commerce with an idea for a new industry or to discuss some industrial plan of theirs, generally come with a location in mind. They have got some particular reason for choosing the location, or have already contacted people in the area who are going to participate in the financing of the enterprise or to help it. Occasionally, some people come who have no fixed ideas as to where the proposed enterprise will be located. In such circumstances, it would be the aim of the officers of the Department assisting these projects to put the promoters in touch with local development committees or organisations which could give them information as to the facilities available in particular towns or as to financial participation in the development of the industry that might be forthcoming in particular areas.
As a rule, these local development committees are merely concerned to get a factory. They do not mind very much what sort of factory or they have not a very clear idea of the sort of factory that might be practicable. It will be appreciated that the desire to get a factory, or willingness to raise the money locally, does not necessarily get one established, until the desire and financial resources are linked together by somebody who has the "know-how" and the capacity to supervise its management. It is not intended that Foras Tionscal should participate in the financing of any industrial enterprise on a shareholding basis. Aid will be given in one or other of the forms set out in the Bill—the erection of a factory, the giving of grants towards the building of a factory or towards its equipment, grants towards the training of workers, or things of that kind.
When it has made its decision and furnished that help, that is the end of any contact between that particular industrial project and An Foras Tionscal. If the project runs into difficulties afterwards, it is to the Department of Industry and Commerce those concerned will have to come, not to An Foras Tionscal.
Is the Minister satisfied with the wording of sub-section (1):—
"For the purpose of providing or facilitating the provision of sites or premises for the establishment, development or maintenance in an undeveloped area of an industrial undertaking ....
The word "maintenance" is also mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (b). Does that not seem to suggest that the board can come to the rescue of an industry afterwards?
The board can build a factory and lease it. I gather that it is necessary to have the wording in that form so that continuing help in the form of a low rent for the premises can be given.
Surely not.
I was interested in that wording because I thought it covered the point of helping existing industries. But that was not the intention of the draftsman and that is why we put in another amendment to achieve that result.
The Minister is satisfied that when the Bill passes into law advantage cannot be taken of that wording.
For what purpose?
To compel the board to come to the assistance of an industry.
It is for the purpose of providing sites or premises, not for any other purpose. On the whole, I think, the wording will not cause difficulty. Some Deputies have put down parliamentary questions asking whether under this Bill a grant can be given for a harbour scheme in Youghal, a viaduct to Valentia Island or some other transport or public work of that kind. In theory it could, but only if that work is necessary for the development of some industry. In other words, the fact that a public road a bridge or harbour work was desirable for the general development of an area would not in itself qualify it for a grant. It must be a road, bridge, harbour work or railway siding required for the development of a particular industry in the locality. If, say, in the case of Youghal a case can be made for Government assistance for the development of the harbour, that can be given under another Government scheme, but it cannot be given under this Bill. It can only be given under this Bill if it can be shown that the establishment or development of a particular industry in that centre necessitates the construction of the proposed work.
Mr. Byrne
If a firm offers to establish a new industry in one of these areas and asks for a substantial subsidy from the Government, will the Minister take steps to protect a similar industry in an adjoining area which is getting no subsidy? In other words, will the Minister allow one industry to crush out the other?
That is the job of An Foras Tionscal. If an industry is established in a county in the West and is operating there profitably and successfully, then the obvious conclusion is that that industry is at no competitive disadvantage because of its location and, therefore, a similar concern in the same locality would not be entitled to any help. It could be effectively established by a private group without any special Government help such as is contemplated in this Bill. The purpose of An Foras Tionscal will be to decide if there is any reason why a concern should not be able to establish itself without any help and be able to meet competition from a similar concern somewhere else. If it decides that, the board will not give any help. It is only where it comes to the conclusion that the western location is a competitive disadvantage which should be offset that a contribution will be made.
In your opening remarks the other day you said that you would protect any industry in these undeveloped areas from any foreigner coming in and competing, but you said that you would not prevent any internal competition in the country. Supposing you establish an industry in one of these undeveloped areas and somebody in Dublin, who has an existing factory, thinks he can produce something similar to what is produced in the undeveloped area, are you prepared to prevent him from duplicating the industry?
The purpose of the help will be to give a factory in the West an opportunity of meeting competition from Dublin, but, equally, the board must consider the measure of help necessary to get that result. If it is decided that no help will put that factory on level terms, they will decide that it is an unsuitable industry for the West.
My point is that when it is already established in the West somebody in Dublin or Cork may find that he can develop such an industry in Cork or Dublin. From your statement, it would appear that you are not going to prevent that person from competing with that factory.
No, there will be no restriction on internal competition. It is true that that was our original idea for getting industrial development in the West, to give a reserved commodity licence under the Control of Manufactures Act. It was intended that when a new industry was established in the West, a similar industry could not be established elsewhere. It was found, however, that that was open to the objection that you would be giving a virtual monopoly to that industry.
If there is a firm established in the West and somebody in Cork or Dublin thinks he can add that line of business to his existing industry, it is not fair to expect the industry in the West to carry on successfully against such competition.
If they are given help under this Bill, they will be started with a very considerable reduction in their capital charges and liabilities and with the release of their own financial resources for working capital purposes to an extent that would not be practicable if the industry was located somewhere else. That is the theory.
The position is that you realise you cannot prevent internal competition. If what Deputy Hickey says takes place, there is nothing you can do.
The theory is that by help of this kind you can put these factories, no matter where located, on level terms and let them compete with each other.
In the northern portion of my county, there are what you might call slips from which fishermen go out to fish. Under the scheme as outlined, will these little slips be entitled to get a grant for their improvement so as to make them safe for fishermen to earn a livelihood?
No. The improvement of fishing harbours or piers will not arise under this Bill. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture has got control of certain funds for that purpose and I am sure he will use them. I know that some tidying up has to be done because, at present, before any such work can be undertaken, the Department of Agriculture, the Board of Works and the local authority have to get all their engineers together to agree and the Parliamentary Secretary has some idea of simplifying that procedure. If a factory was established in Ballyvaughan which required harbour facilities for its development, then it would be possible, under this Bill, to give help.
According to that statement then there is no heading in the Bill under which the fishing industry along the western seaboard can be improved.
Nothing will be done under this Bill. This Bill has nothing to do with fishing.
I thought it would as it is an important industry.
There will be a Bill dealing with fisheries introduced during the next session and the Deputy will have an opportunity of putting forward his views then.
I had a question to-day to the Minister for Agriculture in connection with the setting up of a ground limestone factory in Kenmare. If a number of people come together and form a company with the intention of setting up such a factory, would that project qualify under this Bill?
It would certainly qualify. I do not want that to be taken as a promise that help will be given. It will be entitled to apply for help; but I can contemplate a decision by Foras Tionscal that a ground limestone factory in Kerry to supply Kerry should be capable of being operated without any special help. On the other hand, there may be a decision to give help. I think we will have to look into the whole question of ground limestone production.
Deputy MacBride suggested that one form of help would be a flat rate charge for transport. I think that is completely impracticable. A flat rate charge contemplates the same rate per ton whether the goods are carried for one mile or for 100 miles. If you institute that then Córas Iompair Eireann will get the thin end of the wedge. They will be carrying the 100 miles and the private lorry will carry the one mile because a flat rate can only be operative if the carriage of goods is prohibited in any other way except over Córas Iimpair Eireann and exclude private lorries altogether. Córas Iompair Eireann would have to try to make up by the higher profit on the short haul for the loss on the long haul. Unless you can guarantee the short haul Córas Iompair Eireann will carry at a loss. A flat rate charge will not work out unless you can guarantee the whole of the business. Where that can be done, as in the case of contracts with individual firms, flat rate charges are in fact in force.
One of the matters referred to was the desirability of developing coastal shipping in order to open up the industrial possibilities of the West. I am personally very interested in the possibilities of coastal shipping services. I have stated that it is the Government's view that they should be provided by private enterprise. I know some people are in fact interesting themselves in the possibilities of that development. But I think it should be made clear that the provision of shipping services does not mean anything unless the local traders in the ports concerned are prepared to consign their cargoes through the ports.
At the present time State funds are being expended on the improvement of a number of harbours—Fenit, Limerick, Sligo and Ballina. Money has been spent on Westport and Buncrana and other harbours along the coast. But the shipping services have not come. The reason for that is not that the people are not prepared to provide shipping services but the habit of consigning goods by inland transport rather than by coastal services has become so strong amongst the traders concerned. If the new effort, which I understand will be made to develop coastal shipping, is to succeed it will only succeed if local traders in these centres avail of the services, services which I think would prove to be to their substantial advantage.
Deputy McQuillan referred to the possibilities of developing the tomato industry. I understand the Minister for Agriculture has some plans for that development. I think the processing of tomatoes for various purposes would be a very suitable industry for the West. It is one which I would be particularly keen to encourage. I am afraid, however, that I cannot promise help to the poteen industry to which the Deputy referred.
I move amendment No. 10:—
Before sub-section (2) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(2) Where the board is satisfied that the establishment of an industrial undertaking is desirable in an undeveloped area, and where it appears unlikely that any person, or company, will undertake such development, the board may, with the consent of the Minister, take steps to promote the establishment of an industrial undertaking in such area, and for this purpose may invest funds in and take all steps as may be necessary to establish such industrial undertaking.
The Minister has now discussed the section and he has made points which he did not mention the last day. Realising, as we do, that the strength of a chain is reckoned by the strength of its weakest link, I believe that the strength of this Bill can be reckoned by the fact that the weakest link in it is that it is left solely to the initiative of private enterprise. It is true that the Bill in itself offers certain concessions. It is also true that the Minister may by Order have other areas included, areas which I on the last day described as depressed areas.
The board may afford such facilities as are mentioned in the Bill. They may finance the building of a factory and its equipment. They may make provision for the improvement of roadways, etc. No later than this evening, the Minister has reiterated the one outstanding feature; that is, that when the factory is built and equipped, the people who start the industry must straight away paddle their own canoe. That might be all right in small industries. That may be all right where a group of industrialists, with the aid of technical advice from people sufficiently well informed as to the possibilities of manufacture, proceed to manufacture an article for which there is a ready and guaranteed sale. That would naturally provide a certain encouragement to manufacturers to start such an industry. They may be quite satisfied to do so when they know that they will get financial aid in the erection and equipping of a factory.
There is another side to the picture. In considering the other side of the picture, we must also consider some of the outstanding events of the past. Many speakers have adverted to the fact that consideration should be given to the manufacture of synthetic products from seaweed and kelp. I believe such a development would not attract private enterprise. I do not believe any group of people would come from the West or the South before this board and say that they were prepared to start off on a big scale. People are entitled to invest, as the majority of investors do, in the safest securities they can find. To-day, people want to invest in old-established industries that pay a fair dividend. If we pin our faith on the fact that people from these areas will come forward and invest their money in such industries and put products on the market for which they will have no assurance of a ready sale because of competition within the State itself, I believe there will be a difficulty.
I should like the Minister to remember that we have one outstanding industry, the sugar beet industry, which has created a lot of employment not only in the areas concerned but particularly amongst the farming community and the country as a whole. It would never have been started if left to private enterprise. I am not blaming people if they would not invest their money in it at the time. It may have seemed to them that the risk was too great. We all know that, at the time the Carlow factory was built, the number of individuals in this State who would be willing, on their own, to start such a factory, even with help from the State, was relatively small.
There was a reference to-day to the Tuam factory. We know that at the present time the sugar company have purchased land in its vicinity. We know from the quantity of beet sent into that factory that the local people did not find it safe for themselves to invest in it. Bearing in mind the circumstances surrounding the building of the first sugar factory in the country, we get a clear indication that there will be different lines of approach to the starting of any industry, and that we will not be able perhaps to get individuals or groups of people to make a start on their own.
I believe myself that, as regards the West, the best line of approach would be to consider the possibility of starting an industry for the manufacture of products from kelp and seaweed. We know from what is being done in other countries, that there are vast possibilities in that direction. Of course, such an industry would need the assistance of the highest type of technical skill. Even when allowance is made for the various grants that may be available, the people who would be anxious to start such an industry may not be in a position to secure the highly skilled technicians required. It is, unfortunately, true that highly qualified people are leaving the country day after day.
The newspapers reported some days ago the departure of a man of that type who had gone across to the big firm of Vickers-Armstrong. If possible, I believe that we should keep such people at home, but the trouble is that industrialists in the West or the SouthWest may not be in a position to offer them salaries attractive enough to keep them at home. That is why I urge on the Minister that power be given to the board to start industries in places where it is proved conclusively that we will not be able to get, through lack of finance or otherwise, groups of persons to start industries. You may find groups of people here and there who would be anxious to start certain industries in their areas, but who may be discouraged through difficulties arising from lack of transport or the fact that the raw materials required may be far removed from a seaport or large town. In those circumstances, they may not be prepared to act as pioneers in such an industry, particularly if there is the likelihood that their investments are not going to prove profitable.
With these considerations in mind, I consider that it is the duty of the State if we want to make this Bill a success, to step in and build up an industry in an area where it is proved that it is possible to do so. I am not advocating, of course, that we should go around the country and start an industry irrespective of all other considerations, but I think it should be the duty of the State to start an industry in any particular area where we cannot get local enterprise or local finance to do it. If the State made such a start and if, after a number of years, they were able to build up an industry on satisfactory lines, I would see nothing wrong with the State offering that industry to the local people to be worked by them on a co-operative basis. It could be offered to them on their undertaking to invest their money in it. I believe we would be able to get that done, especially if the people were assured of a fair return on their investment. On the other hand, if we expect people to invest their money at the start in an industry, I believe that this Bill will be found wanting.
This amendment has the full support of every member of the Labour Party. We maintain that you simply cannot sit back if you want to make the Bill a success and if you want to get the industrial arm in the West in full swing or even in medium swing. It would not do for the Minister to await the arrival in his Department of would-be industrialists, because many of them may fight shy of these projects. The Minister made it clear time and time again that after the giving of grants at the start and after the factory has been built and after grants have been given towards equipment, full responsibility will then devolve on the people themselves. It may be all right to give certain contributions by the State. These will be a help. I believe that in view of the restricted number of products which people may think of going into they may ultimately be driven to take up some line of manufacture which would need the assistance of highly qualified technicians. That applies to a certain extent to the slate quarries. It is clear, at the present time, that some of the slate quarry owners are not in a position to work the quarries economically because they have not proper machinery. The Minister may say that certain facilities are available to them from some other source, but what is to happen if those people do not even look for that consideration? With all the materials that are available, are we to continue roofing our houses with concrete tiles? I know, of course, that the manufacturers of those tiles and the users of cement, and Cement Limited are anxiously awaiting the time when our slate quarries will not be working to full capacity. The tendency at the present time would appear to be to use any type of roofing material other than slate for our houses. The fact, however, is that we have large deposits of slate which are undeveloped. These deposits will never be developed if the development is left to private individuals. I believe that the acceptance of the amendment would make the Bill a success.
While I fully support the Deputy's insistence that the State should play its part in the industrial development of the West, I am absolutely opposed to the amendment because I think it would do the Bill a considerable amount of harm. This Bill, as I see it, is a pilot scheme. I say that because of the limited amount of money to be made available. The object of the Bill is to see if industrial development can take place in the West. If we are going to mix State development with the Bill, which is obviously designed to stimulate and encourage private enterprise, then I think you are going to discourage private enterprise. Take any area in the West of Ireland where there are people who want to start an industry. If they think the position will arise that that industry may, at a later date, be in competition or may be superseded by a State industry, I think the whole countenance of private enterprise in the Bill is going to be interfered with. I would far prefer to see this Bill go through as it is, without any amendment, and wait and see what the result will be. I am sure that there will be some result. I do not want to relieve the Government of its responsibility to provide employment where private enterprise cannot provide it.
The last Deputy who spoke is, evidently, a great believer in private enterprise. The reason why I am supporting this amendment is that I know of a number of industries that have been dependent for years on private enterprise and have absolutely failed, for instance, the barytes mines in West Cork. Before this State was founded there was a great export trade from these mines. When the State was formed the vested interests in the mines did not think it wise to continue them, and they are closed down since.
Previous to the first World War there was a great demand for barytes, not alone in England but in Europe. It took a Hungarian to come into this country and to charter ships and take away the barytes which remained on the surface since the period of the first World War. He shipped it to England and elsewhere. A group of individuals here would not develop the industry, even with encouragement from people who knew how to develop it. There was such an export trade of barytes from Cork during 1914, 1915 and 1920 that the dockers in Cork had to get a special rate for handling this volume of export trade. We are told now that we must wait until private enterprise will come along and develop that industry.
Deputy Desmond has adverted to slate quarries. During the last Government's régime, I tried to get something done about developing these quarries, not alone in Cork but in Clare as well. I felt that it was a terrible state of affairs that we should be covering thousands of our houses with artificial slates.
What do you do in Cork?
In Cork we have a slate quarry which has been working for years. There were 130 men employed there at one time, and now there are only 50. People in charge of Killaloe told me that the Dutch would take all the slates that they could give. Killaloe's biggest customer was the Glasgow Corporation. Yet houses are being roofed by municipalities in this country with a type of slates or tiles imported from Holland or elsewhere. I watched three lorries taking imported tiles from the quayside in Cork last Sunday to districts in West Cork. Yet we are told that we are acting unfairly when we interfere with private enterprise; we are told we might discourage it.
I have letters in my possession from Killaloe saying that the reason they cannot develop the slate quarries there is that they have not sufficient capital. A certain amount of expenditure would be needed to clear away the waste and get down to the slates proper.
I heard Deputy Flynn asking a question recently about slate quarries in Kerry. The answer he got was that they were inspected and that the report which was got back was not favourable. I suggest to the Minister that the reason that report was not favourable was that private enterprise did not want any interference with the slate quarries because they are doing very well and receive substantial dividends.
I have a letter in my pocket from Carrick-on-Suir asking if anything could be done about the slate quarries located there. Must we wait on private enterprise to achieve what we want done? I am quite satisfied that if we are waiting for private enterprise to start the industries, large or small, in the undeveloped areas, it will not do it. I would suggest to the Minister that you will not get people to invest money in that type of industry while they are able to draw big dividends elsewhere. We are not going to depend on private enterprise to develop even small industries. I am rather keen on starting small industries right through undeveloped areas along the coast of this country. I support this amendment for the very good reason that private enterprise will not do the job. If we were dependent on private enterprise to establish our industries and to help the people of this country, we would be disappointed.
Deputies have wasted a lot of time on this particular amendment, which seems to me, on the face of it, to be unnecessary. We have established a board to assist private enterprise. Why put on that board the additional function of running industries? I think it would be complicating matters somewhat for the board, and I doubt if it would be able to fulfil the dual purpose of developing private enterprise on the one hand and establishing industries on the other. I do not think it is necessary to wait for any length of time for the development of any industry which cannot be undertaken by private enterprise. If there are mineral deposits in an area, or a slate quarry which is capable of being developed by the investment of capital, I think that the Minerals Development Company should be instructed to undertake the working and development of that particular industry.
I think we should aim at leaving this board to deal with the functions which are given to it. If there is other work outside that such as mineral development it should be left to a State company established for the purpose. If there is an opening for some other industry in the matter of developing essential raw material, it might be necessary to establish another State company to undertake that work. The functions of the new board should not be overlapped or functions should not be transferred to it which are outside its scope and which it might not be equipped to undertake. I have already mentioned how all this industrial development could very profitably be undertaken by a State company established for the purpose. Any development in regard to turf, for instance, could be undertaken by Bord na Móna. Similarly, any development in regard to electricity could be undertaken by the Electricity Supply Board. Also, it may be necessary to establish a State company to deal with the marketing of fish.
If it is necessary to establish a State company for any other branch of production, particularly in the matter of raw materials, whether it be lime or ground limestone or anything else, I do not see why it should not be done. There is nothing to prevent it from being done. I do not think there is any real reason for imposing upon the board established under this Bill the additional function of running industries. It may, as a matter of fact, impede it in doing the work which is entrusted to it under the Bill.
I believe we are all in agreement as to what ought to be done. We are all in agreement with the proposal that whatever resources are in the country, whether it is slate, phosphate rock, limestone rock or anything else, that require development, ought to be developed as far as possible. There is no necessity for waiting any length of time on private enterprise. If the board or the Minister sees that the particular line of production cannot be undertaken by private enterprise, he can go ahead and promote public enterprise in that particular direction.
My reason for taking part in this debate is that, listening to the remarks of Deputy Hickey, I felt compelled to stand up and agree with him so far as private enterprise is concerned. He has mentioned slate quarries in the Killaloe area. As a young lad, I remember the stone quarries in Doonagore, which were worked by an English firm long before we had the freedom we now enjoy to-day. They came from England and not alone did they work those quarries but they developed the harbour in Liscannor to ship from Liscannor the products of those quarries. After some years, they fell through for some reason or other. Deputy Hickey mentioned the Killaloe slate quarries. As I said here the other night, and say again now, I would ask the Tánaiste to extend this Bill to the slate quarries at Killaloe. These quarries were never properly developed and in what I might call the miniature attempt that had been made to develop them by private enterprise, they have still been a great success so far as the slate is concerned. I would like the House to remember that after 100 or 150 years they are still there to the good when the compositions that are put in the roofs of our houses will have fallen down and gone.
In regard to private enterprise, the Minister knows just as well as I do that during the emergency when the farmers could not get manures to carry this country through the scarcity— because of which the farmers had undoubtedly to produce more and would have been unable to do so without manures—it was the phosphate mine in Doolin which produced the manures and enabled the crops to be grown to feed the people of this country during that emergency. That was done by the Government and not by private enterprise.
It has been proved here in the course of the debates for the past fortnight or three weeks that some people can never see the sense of investing money in their own country. It has been invested with our neighbour and at a very small rate of interest. If that money could be used at home—and I do not see why the Government would not insist that it should be so used— it would give us a chance to develop industries here and that is essential if you want to make the Bill a success.
I think that Deputy Cogan and Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll are under a misapprehension about the amendment suggested by Deputy Desmond. This is not an attempt at nationalisation of industry of any kind in these congested areas but is merely an attempt to ensure that where private enterprise does not develop industries in these particular districts this board, after detailed examination, will, where it sees fit, advise the establishment of an industry that will be appropriate to a particular locality.
In this Bill the Minister is providing a good financial incentive to industrialists or manufacturers in an attempt to get them to carry out to some extent the industrialisation of the West. This is a suggestion to him, to go just a small way in nationalisation of a particular type of industry in the congested areas and in the West generally. Nobody suggests that the Government should set up any type of manufacturing industry but the amendment does seriously suggest that the Government would interest itself in the development of the natural resources of the congested districts and all the other places mentioned in the Bill.
Deputy Desmond has made a very good case for the inclusion of this section and Deputy Hickey has followed on on practically the same lines. I think it is evident for a long time that the development of the natural resources of the country as a whole is in need of greater exploitation by somebody. Private enterprise has not done it. Private enterprise for years failed to take an interest, for example, in the development of electricity in this country. The State had to do it. Private enterprise failed to take an interest in the beet sugar industry in this country and again the State had to do it. The Minister himself admits to-day that the Government of around 1934 took steps in the direction of establishing a beet factory in Tuam. He admitted that for years that particular factory has not been an economic success——
What is the reason?
The factory is in the wrong place. It should have been in New Ross.
The reason is that the farmers cannot get an economic price for their beet.
In any case private enterprise failed to take any interest in the development of the sugar beet industry in this country and the State had to intervene. I think everybody recognises that the development of the slate industry, for one example, is an absolute necessity for this country. For some unknown reason private enterprise has failed to take any interest.
For some reason private enterprise has lost a lot of money in it.
I would not be prepared to believe that anyway.
In any case there is a market for slates in this country and, if private enterprise does not develop slate quarries, we suggest that it is the State's duty and function to do it, because it is ridiculous importing or using slates that are not suitable for houses in this country.
You cannot get any slates at all.
There is another example where private enterprise has failed and where the State has had to step in in recent years. Private enterprise in many towns and counties failed to take an interest in house building. The result was that local authorities in different places had to step in and provide the houses themselves. Nobody can deny that there was a market for houses and that there was a reasonable profit for private enterprise in the house-building industry but, for some unknown reason, private enterprise took no interest in it. Local authorities had to take a hand and build in some cases by direct labour. As I said, this amendment is not intended to provide a method in substitution for private enterprise and we do not disagree with any financial incentive that private enterprise may get towards the establishment of industry in the congested areas. We merely say that where private enterprise fails to take an interest and where the board thinks it would be desirable and feasible to set up an industry, that they should do so. The Minister has expressed the belief that the natural resources of the West can be developed by private enterprise but if private enterprise does not proceed to develop them, will he avail of the terms of this Bill to enable the board to do it?
I am sure the Minister has all the necessary information at his disposal but there seems to be something mysterious about the failure to produce slates in this country. A quarry that was opened in Louisburgh in my own county has failed. A similar complaint has been made about Killaloe out of which, beyond question, a very good slate was coming at one time. The same is true of Driminagh in West Cork and of a quarry which was opened in Galway. Why is it that these quarries have been a failure?
I think the answer is, although I should not like to express it as an authoritative opinion, that the Irish slate is a small slate and its utilisation for roofing involves the use of a considerable amount of timber and timber is very dear at present.
Is it true that natural layers of slate are being broken up by volcanic action in places throughout the country?
I have not heard that. Deputy Hickey referred to the Carrick-on-Suir slate quarry. I think, if my memory is correct, that we got that quarry started twice and it failed twice in my own time. We spent a great deal of money in West Cork trying to develop the quarries there. The Louisburgh quarry was also opened with the aid of State money at one time. I think if the total amount lost by the State in an effort to keep these quarries open, even at a time when tiles had not become so popular as they have since, were computed, it would amount to a considerable sum. I think it was Deputy Corish, rather than Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll, who misunderstood this amendment. Deputy Corish said that the purpose of this amendment was to ensure that the Government would interest itself in the development of the natural resources of the congested districts.
The Government is quite prepared to interest itself in the development of the natural resources of these counties but the amendment suggests that the development of any enterprise on which the Government decided to embark should be undertaken through the board. That is the only issue between us. I listened to Deputy Desmond and, to a large extent, I could not disagree with his arguments. It is true that we cannot leave the development of our natural resources and of industrial possibilities to private enterprise alone.
I agree that, to the extent to which private enterprise is either unable or unwilling to avail of the industrial possibilities that exist, the Government should undertake the task itself through some State organisation but I think that, if it does, it will have to be done through some specialist organisation. I do not think it practicable to give the three men who will constitute the board the task of running any industry. That must be the job of people who have technical knowledge of the particular enterprise concerned. Even if the members of the board were technicians they may have technical knowledge in regard to only one enterprise and they would have to confine their activities to that. If there is a case for State activity in the production of sugar, fertilisers or sea-weed, or the products of sea-weed, then it will have to be done by a specialist organisation directed by people chosen because of their special knowledge of that one task, who can bring to it the concentrated attention it would require.
This Bill is intended to provide assistance for private industrial firms undertaking industrial activity in these areas. If over and above all that any private enterprise so assisted can do, there are other industrial possibilities which because of their complicated character, risk or some other feature, are not likely to be attractive to private enterprise, then I agree the State should try to undertake such developments. Looking back over the past twenty years, a good deal has been done by the State in that direction but it was done by specialist organisations set up by Statute.
That is the way to handle such developments. My disagreement with Deputy Desmond is not on the principle that State activity should supplement in these matters whatever private enterprise can do, but on the practical issue that the State must work through some organisation other than that contemplated in the Bill. This board will have one function—to administer the finances provided under the Bill. Any other function concerned with development must be carried out by some organisation specially set up for the purpose.
In other words, apart from the functions of the board, the State has already ample legislation to set up industries if they wish to do so.
Particular industries. The State has set up the alginate company for seaweed industries along the western seaboard. Bord na Móna for the production of turf and the sugar company for manufacturing sugar. There are other State concerns of that kind. Some of these will extend their activities into new lines, which are within their powers as defined by law, but if there is a new enterprise likely to be deemed practicable for these areas, the right way is to entrust the development of it to people who know something about the industry and give them powers under a special Act. If funds are required the State would not have the right to call on the funds provided by this Bill, because these funds will not be more than sufficient to finance private enterprise.
I waited with interest to hear what the Minister had to say as to why the amendment should not be accepted. I listened to Deputies who signified their opposition to it to see if they could give any reason in the world why the right should not be given to the board to initiate a scheme in any undeveloped area under the Bill. No one pointed out what harm it was to have this power in the Bill. Assuming it never did any good, surely it would be there as a spur, as a precautionary measure, to ensure that where private enterprise did not— either because of the fact that the promoters were not going to get dividends or because they had already started an industry in the East which might clash with some of the industries established in the West—take the initiative, the board would act. Surely it is only reasonable to expect that private enterprise will not attempt to enter into the West until the promoters are satisfied that big dividends will result.
If they find from their expert advisers that that industry can be established in some western area which would be just sufficient to pay the wages of the workers and the overheads of the factory, but which would not yield very much in dividends, would it not be a national dividend to us to have the workers of those areas employed and kept at home even though we do not gain very much else from it? Is it suggested that private enterprise is interested in the Gaeltacht areas for that reason alone? Business people are not worried whether the people find work in the Gaeltacht areas or anywhere else. The only interest they have is in getting dividends.
There are a good many industries, such as fish curing, which may not yield a big dividend but which could be run by this board. The Tánaiste made the point that these men will not be experts. Nobody expects them to be experts themselves but, having been advised that there was a possibility in a certain industry, surely they could, with the money in their hands, employ experts who would run the industry for the first few years and, as Deputy Desmond said, then invite shares to be taken by the people of the area? They could contact the local development committees or even the local authorities and point out what had been done over an initial period of five years, what were the profits and the results from the industry, and then invite the people to take £1 shares or some shares of that kind. I feel that if the right to initiate industries was put into the Bill it would improve the Bill, even if private enterprise had the first right to try to establish an industry before the board started. Therefore, I support the amendment.
I am interested in the debate on this particular point and in the amendment because it is I think a rather important matter. I am particularly interested in the Tánaiste's reply. This Bill will be welcomed by all sides and it is very desirable and necessary in the circumstances. Unfortunately, it is not unlikely that the pattern of industrialisation which should and will, I hope, follow the allotment of this money to the West will follow the lines of going to Westport, Castlebar and the largest towns, because, if an industrialist wants to make money out of an enterprise, he will find in those areas water, electricity, etc. and the other things which are necessary for the establishment of an industry. I have no experience of industry, but I find it difficult to imagine an industrialist taking a look at Lettermore or Lettermullen and establishing an industry in either of these places owing to the attraction of Galway. There is very little money in those areas and, consequently, there is unlikely to be any great capital forthcoming from the inhabitants for the establishment of an industry. Therefore, I imagine that in the area from Spiddal up to Carna and all round the islands there will be very little development by private enterprise under the Bill.
Admittedly, it is a pilot Bill and for that reason it is worth watching. If it does not give us all the things hoped for it will at least show up some mistakes and in that way we can learn from the experience we get. But there is the difficulty that you have in those areas poor people with very little money. The spoken language is largely confined to those areas and, consequently, taking Connemara anyway, it is an area in which I imagine the Government would be interested in seeing that certain employment is provided. One of the unfortunate things there is the lack of the necessities for modern industries such as electricity, water, etc. The other thing which I personally have some experience of was the lack of available employees over the whole year.
It was possible to get people for a certain number of months in the year, but it was not easy to get a good pool of employees for any industry over the whole year. Consequently, there are such considerable risks in that particular area that I wonder if the Tánaiste has given the matter consideration and if he is prepared to have a recommendation put forward by this board at the end of a particular period that the problem of preserving what remains of the language in that area is not adverted to in this Bill and that it will be necessary for the State to take a hand and establish small industries there.
I feel that the people who framed the Bill have taken most of the facts into consideration and will bear them in mind, knowing that this matter has the sympathy of all sides of the House and that it is an extremely difficult task in those cases. Most of us have very great sympathy with and understanding of the matter and we wish them every encouragement in carrying out this job.
Deputy Dr. Browne referred to a rather specialised problem and it is no harm that I should mention it, because it was also discussed during the Second Reading debate and I did not have an opportunity of commenting on what was said. I do not think that this Bill will in fact benefit the half dozen parishes or so that constitute the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. I do not think that it is desirable that we should actively try to attract industrial development by private enterprise in those areas. I think that private enterprise in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht would only have an anglicising effect. If there is to be development of industry or other activities there, it must of necessity be done by State organisations, organisations which will have instructions to subordinate commercial success to the preservation of the language and the Gaelic character of the area.
After this Bill was announced, I had a discussion with the executive of Comhdháil Náisiúnta on that question and I expressed the view that no financial help we could give would in fact attract a private industrial group into the Fíor-Ghaeltacht instead of into Galway or Clifden or some of the towns in the vicinity and they, in fact, said that that is what they would prefer. They wished to see industrial employment developed in the areas around the Fíor-Ghaeltacht so that those who had to leave it, or desired to leave it for economic reasons, would not wander too far from their homes and would still be in contact with the home atmosphere. They represented that in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht development would have to be through State organisations and I fully and completely agree with that.
Would the Minister consider then an amendment on the Report Stage to the effect that the board would have power to initiate the establishment of an industry without investing funds in it?
No. That implies a different type of organisation from what I have in mind here. I contemplate under this Bill an administrative organisation which will have funds, which will receive propositions and assess their merits from the point of view of permanency as set out under the Bill and assess the competitive disadvantages of a location and, having made that assessment, appropriate aid under one or other headings of the Bill.
That contemplates an organisation that will go out, investigate, get expert advice on industrial possibilities and then prepare propositions. That will be a different type of organisation altogether. I think that is work for the Department of Industry and Commerce.
It is necessary to keep in mind the position of the Industrial Development Authority in this connection. Under the previous régime that authority was snowed under with administrative responsibilities. It was handling export and import licences and other administrative duties of that kind to such an extent that it could in fact do little else. I have taken all those functions from it and I have given it a list of industries which are of major importance and which are only likely to be established here if someone goes out to plan them. That authority has got the job now of planning the development of these industries.
In some directions at least they are making considerable progress. If they produce a sound plan for any one or other of these industries entrusted to them, a plan which seems practicable for the West, and if we cannot get that plan put into operation by private enterprise then we will contemplate doing it as a State enterprise. But all that work of planning industrial development, considering the possibilities, getting expert reports and making that information available to people who may be keen to follow the information up, all that work will be done by the Industrial Development Authority in respect of one group of industries. In respect of all the others it will be done by the Department of Industry and Commerce. It is only when all that has produced a particular project that the board will come into the picture to decide what inducement can be offered in respect of that project to establish it west of the Shannon instead of east.
Is it proposed under this Bill to further the extension of the Electricity Supply Board lines to rural areas?
No.
In many areas in North Mayo there are people who would be willing to provide a little industry giving employment to perhaps six or ten people but because the power is not available they can do nothing. I know a number of such people. Is it proposed under this Bill to provide money for the extension of the Electricity Supply Board lines?
No. If the Deputy will turn to Section 10 he will see that it is set out there that the Electricity Supply Board must provide, if so required by Order of the Minister, a supply of power to any industry in these areas at the lowest rate of charge.
I can understand Deputy Desmond's anxiety in this matter and I can view his case with a certain amount of sympathy. I do not believe there is a Deputy who does not know of at least one undeveloped area in his constituency. In our constituencies in the South, we are faced with problems that were created by the departure of the British from this country and they have remained unsolved ever since. In Cobh, the departure of the British left 2,000 skilled workers unemployed from 1922 to 1939. In 1939, Irish Steel was established and that eased the pressure.
Deputy Desmond has Passage West on his side of the river. We hoped there that employment would be found in the Rushbrooke dockyard but, unfortunately, Rushbrooke is being squeezed out by Dublin. Kinsale is in practically the same position. The town of Fermoy is derelict. In both those towns, employment was given either by the British Navy or because British forces were quartered in the area. Fermoy has remained undeveloped ever since the British left. I hope that in the next six months a decent industry will be established there but I do not want an Undeveloped Areas Bill in order to have that industry established. I hope we will get it without that.
I understand the particular purpose behind this Bill. I know the areas it is hoped to cover. Ever since I came into this House close on 25 years ago, we have listened to continuous complaints by western Deputies of unemployment and of people emigrating year after year. That has been used as a lever in order to extract from the Land Commission land in Meath and other counties.
Is the Deputy speaking to the amendment?
I am.
The Chair does not think so.
I am speaking very definitely to it.
The Chair does not think so and the Deputy must now come to the amendment.
I am giving the reasons which I believe induced Deputy Desmond to put down this amendment.
Then the Deputy ought to speak to it.
We are faced with the position of undeveloped areas in every constituency, areas which every Deputy hopes will be clapped into this Bill. I am giving the special reasons why in my opinion this Bill should not be confined to the western seaboard.
The amendment is seeking to give power to the board to do certain things.
Yes.
The Deputy has not said a word about that yet. This is amendment No. 10 to Section 5.
It sets out here that where the establishment of an industry is desirable in an undeveloped area the board may take steps to promote the establishment of an industrial undertaking in that area.
It is giving power to the board to do certain things.
I am sorry. I thought it was for the extension of the area.
Is the Deputy going to keep on?
No.
Is Deputy Desmond pressing the amendment?
I would like to say a few words by way of reply. I was rather surprised at Deputy Corry taking the line that he did and I was wondering what the Minister was thinking of it. It now seems he cannot make up his mind. We thank Deputy Cogan for his opinion that the Minister can arrange for State enterprise in other directions. That line was taken up by other Deputies. To be quite frank, I do not know what line Deputy Dr. Browne is taking. He was for and against the amendment. Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll used the words, appropriately perhaps, that this was a pilot Bill. He considered that because, being a pilot Bill, it was of importance and it should get a good try. Coming as I do from a seaboard area, the word "pilot" has to me a certain significance. People living, perhaps, in inland areas may not take the same notice of it that I do. But the fact is that the materials, the goods and even the passengers who come into this country are at all times dependent on the services of a pilot. The pilot must go out to the various liners that come into Cork Harbour. If this Bill is to be considered as a pilot Bill and if the pilot fails, then the Bill is on the rocks. I maintain that the Minister who introduced the Bill must accept the responsibility of pilot.
The Minister said something that I was not aware of before, that there has been a loss on the manufacture of slate. If there has been, is that not an indictment of the manner in which private enterprise has dealt with the industry? Otherwise, it must be due to lack of necessary machinery, equipment or technicians to operate such an important industry. It is one important industry which may have resulted in a loss of money simply because the available resources were not being utilised by the industrialists themselves, or because they may not have been in a position financially to avail of them.
Deputy Dr. Browne mentioned that he had in mind the idea of small industries. On the Second Stage of the Bill, I referred to the importance of local industries which industrialists either will not operate or may not be in a position to operate. The Minister did mention, in connection with some of these possible larger industries, that other boards or bodies may be set up to deal with them. I think he did mention during the debate that a list of possible industries has been given to the Industrial Development Authority. What I am anxious to know is whether there is such a thing available as a true sense of co-ordination. I am not, of course, attacking the Minister, because I believe that this is a matter which should have been considered not within the last few months but 30 years ago. If we have these bodies dealing with possible industries, and if we have a true sense of co-ordination existing between them, it should be possible, within a short period of time, to embark on some of the larger ones which the Minister must know industrialists will not embark on.
The duration of this Bill is for a period of seven years. We know, of course, it can be extended. The term of office of the three members of the proposed board will expire after five years. They, too, can be re-employed. The point that I want to make is, are we going to wait for seven years to find out whether private industrialists will be able to, or will agree to, undertake the development of various manufactures and processes in the West and South West? According to the statement of the Minister, it seems quite evident that, because we are leaving this entirely to private enterprise, we cannot embark on the alternative system whereby, within a shorter period than seven years we should be able to move in the opposite direction of State enterprise. Deputy Kyne and myself have indicated that we would be quite willing to see these industries based on a sound paying basis and that after a number of years arrangements could be made for offering their shares on the market. If that were done, the State would be relieved of all responsibility, provided we could make them pay.
I think it is perfectly evident from what has been said here, for and against the amendment, that this Bill will not operate successfully, and cannot give the desired results unless we are prepared here and now to put certain facilities at the disposal of this board. The Minister knows quite well that there is not behind the amendment the suggestion that the members of the board should run any of these industries. He made it clear, when presenting the Bill to the House, that even in the case of private enterprise, the duty on the members of the board is finished when the factories are erected and the equipment for them provided. The Minister has stated that the members of the board will have a staff to help and advise them. If private enterprise cannot succeed in dealing with a certain industry, I believe that the only feasible way in which we can operate the Bill is by telling the people in the West and the South West areas this: that the Bill can be made a success if they work together in harmony and in conjunction with one another by promoting private enterprise, and that where that is not possible the State will help through State enterprise.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 10; Níl, 63.
Tá
- Belton, John.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Hickey, James.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- McAuliffe, Patrick.
- Norton, William.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Breen, Dan.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- Fanning, John.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Bourke, Dan.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- Ormonde, John.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Laurence J.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Desmond and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Amendment declared lost.
I move amendment No. 11:—
To add to the section a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) No stamp duty shall be payable on any instrument under which any land, easement, way-leave, water right or other right whatsoever over or in respect of land or water is acquired by the board.
As this board will not be a board constituted with share capital it would contract stamp duty under the Finance Act in respect of any property acquired. The purpose of this amendment is to exempt it from the payment of stamp duty.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 12:—
To add to the section a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) Nothing in sub-section (1) of this section shall be construed as affecting the operation of Section 130 of the Transport Act, 1944 (No. 21 of 1944).
The purpose of this amendment is to put in a saver for Section 130 of the Transport Act. That section prohibits the compulsory acquisition of any property of Córas Iompair Éireann except with the consent of the Minister, and it is intended to provide that this board cannot acquire compulsorily Córas Iompair Éireann property.
Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."
It seems to me that the success of this whole Bill will depend on the extent to which Section 5 is used for the purpose of establishing industrial undertakings in what may be described particularly as the western areas. Quite frankly, as I said on the Second Stage of this Bill, I do not think it is wise on the part of this House to give the impression that the enactment of this Bill in its present form will produce an industrial revolution in the West. I am quite satisfied it will do nothing of the kind, the pattern of life being what it is in the West. The West is mainly a trading and pastoral area and it will be extremely difficult to induce the ordinary private person to establish industries in the West, even with the facilities provided in this particular section. After all, considerable difficulty is experienced in inducing the ordinary private investor to put his money into an industry in urban areas or in city areas because in this country, unfortunately, the establishment of a new industry is accompanied by more than the normal growing pains. The private investor has to face up to the problem of acquiring premises, converting green labour into skilled labour; he has to face up to the problem that there is an industrial tradition in particular industries. The accumulative effect of even these three sets of difficulties is such that it imposes considerable handicaps on any new industry. That is inevitable and it is something that we cannot get over. It is part of the price we have to pay for the policy of developing our secondary industries. In the case of many of the industries which have been established in urban areas, even where the labour position might be considered to be better from the standpoint of starting an industry than a western area, or where other difficulties might not be as obvious as they will be in western areas, investors have not got dividends for many years and some of them have not got dividends at all.
We are glad you admit that.
I never denied it.
You always attacked them for having dividends. You did more damage to the development of industry in this country——
I did more damage to a collection of industrial sharks. I did more than you ever did in the interest of the workers. I did damage to a particular collection of continental so-called industrialists who came in here with shamrock in their hats to exploit the Irish workers. I will continue to do it in spite of what Deputy Briscoe or any of his ilk may say when I see Irish workers being exploited by any kind of capitalist.
You were going to put them behind walls.
The Deputy must be allowed to make his speech without interruption. Deputy Briscoe can have his say afterwards.
He is a company promoter and a paid industrialist himself.
It does not arise on this Bill.
He does not want to see Irish workers protected from those who want to exploit them. I will continue to do it whether it begets you annoyance or not, and remember that.
Section 5.
I wanted to call attention to those facts because of the disorderly interruptions of the company director in the other benches. I say, Sir, that many of the difficulties which have confronted investors in the matter of investing money in eastern areas will be difficulties which will show themselves in a more intensive form in the development of industry in the West. Therefore, I am afraid that reliance on the ordinary private investor to start industries in the western areas will not give us the response which is essential if we are ever to give an industrial pattern to these western areas.
As I said on the Second Stage, the whole problem of the economic regeneration of the West resides not in reliance on the establishment of industrial undertakings alone; there are a wide variety of national activities which could be carried on in those areas involving the development of our sea fisheries, our mineral deposits, the fullest utilisation of land and the development of our afforestation programme.
I do not want to develop the advantages offered by schemes of that kind on this particular section, but I believe it is only by a combination of all these activities that we can make a substantial contribution to the solution of the problem of the underdevelopment of the West and the constant emigration from these undeveloped areas.
It is because of that that I think the Minister will, before long, be forced to recognise that, while this Bill may make some contribution—I fear a very small contribution—to the industrialisation of the West, it will be necessary to have the efforts of this board supplemented either through the board or independently, by State activity calculated to ensure the development of our industries on the largest possible scale. It is quite true, as has been said, that private enterprise has attempted on a number of occasions to exploit the mineral deposits and the state deposits in these areas. Unfortunately, there is a long trail of failure and disappointment arising from these activities. Very often, that has not been due, probably, to any want of enthusiasm on the part of private enterprise. In many instances, it may be due to incompetent management, even due to incompetence, deliberate or accidental, on the part of imported technicians. In some instances, it has been due to the fact that the industry ran into heavy seas and was not able to hold on because its financial resources did not permit it to do so.
But many of the most successful industries in this country are industries which, if the spotlight of efficiency had been put on them at one time or another, might have been found sadly wanting, but they nevertheless managed to keep going and ultimately to triumph over their infant difficulties.
I think the State would have at its command resources which will not be available to the ordinary small industrialist, or to any of the smaller undertakings which may be thrown up by the Bill. It is because I believe that only the State has the financial resources necessary for the fullest exploitation of the areas, the ability to get the necessary technical assistance to command in any field the knowledge which enters into the necessary "know-how" of attracting technicians to this country, that I think it is necessary, through this Bill or an Order to cap or flank this Bill, for the State to engage in the fullest exploitation of these areas. What after all can private enterprise do in the matter of developing mineral deposits in the West? Does anybody know anybody in the West who in 1952 would invest money in looking for copper deposits there? Does anybody know anybody in the West who would subscribe £100 to explore the possibilities of getting sulphur deposits in Connemara? Of course they will not do that because they know too well that it is a line of country in which it is too expensive to try to plough the possibilities of success. They know only too well that it is a line of country which can suck up a considerable sum of money. If I may use a paradoxical expression, the loss of that money may be their only reward for investment of that kind.
The position is different with the State. The State has the resources to prospect and develop deposits. The State has the resources, if deposits are found, to hold on until these deposits can be produced in quantities to make their exploitation a commercial proposition. The State has the resources to get the necessary technical aid from wherever that aid is available. It is the State, and only the State, which can ensure that whatever deposits are in the area will not be lost from the standpoint of inadequacy of financial assistance to ensure their fullest exploitation. The Minister, however, has indicated that he does not want this board to have the responsibility of setting up such undertakings.
If the Minister takes that line, I regret it but I urge him to recognise at the outset that the response under Section 5 is, I fear—and there are good grounds for the fears—likely to be disappointing and that if any real progress is to be made towards bringing industries to the West, then it can be done only by the State occasionally participating in the establishment of those industries into which, for one reason or another—many of the reasons may be good reasons—it is not possible to attract private investors. I urge him to recognise that the other way in which we can help to bring industrial employment to the West is by supplementing the activities of private enterprise under the Bill by State activities on a large scale, with the development of other activities by other Departments, so as to help to make a general contribution towards providing in the West of Ireland employment, the absence of which to-day unfortunately sends many of our people overseas to find a living which they cannot get at home.
I shall not delay the House very long as I merely wish to comment on the speech which has just been delivered. Deputy Norton, apparently, does not understand the most simple requirements necessary to bring industry to the undeveloped areas. He does not realise that what has militated against the development of industry there in the past is the fact that the market for the disposal of whatever goods might be produced there, will not in the main be in the West. Obviously nobody is going to start industries there, confronted with the disadvantage of competition from better placed industries from the point of view of a market.
Apparently he does not understand that this Bill is going to attempt to attract industries in that part of the country by giving them certain advantages in order to make their products as competitive as if the factories were functioning in the biggest centres. Deputy Norton does not see the many problems that face persons investing money in industry. In his heart he has a horror and a hatred for what he described as the capitalist mentality.
Deputy Norton's attitude towards industry does not arise in this Bill, except in so far as he referred to it in his statement just now.
He referred to company promoters.
Not in his statement. That was in an interchange across the House.
He did not refer to the fact that under this Bill there could be a reduced charge for electricity, as compared with the charges in similar industries situated on the eastern seaboard. He did not realise that there was further assistance from the State, in the provision of a subsidy for the erection of a factory, reducing the capital cost in the actual building. There is also to be assistance provided in the acquisition of plant. In other words, in order to balance the disadvantages of a western location, this Bill seeks, as a beginning, to attract industries to the western seaboard by taking away from investors handicaps which they normally would incur in setting up industries in these areas. When Deputy Norton says he fears the Bill will not be a success, I think he wishes and hopes it will not be a success.
That is a falsehood.
I said "I think" and I still think it.
You can easily compound with your conscience, if you have any.
When it comes to an examination of one's conscience, it will not be over here that the person will be found lacking in readiness to submit it for examination.
That hardly arises on this Bill.
I am as entitled to answer an interjection as the Deputy is. I believe that a very substantial change of outlook with regard to the need for the establishment of an industry on the western seaboard has taken place. I believe it will attract private enterprise. When the Deputy talks about the other industries in regard to which State assistance is necessary, if the Deputy listened to the Tánaiste when he spoke on amendment No. 10 he would have found that that was clearly stated. This Bill is limited to giving assistance to private enterprise for the establishment of industries with the consequent employment they will give and the saving to the national economy by establishing them in parts of Ireland where industries have not been traditionally known. I am satisfied that this is a good Bill, that it will have good results, and when the £2,000,000 provided has been exhausted more money will be provided for such industrial development.
On Section 1, I understood the Minister to inform Deputy Dillon that existing enterprises will not be assisted by this board.
They will now. We made that clear beyond all doubt by introducing amendment No. 1.
Therefore, in regard to an existing industry which has not, for want of capital, been developed as fully as it might, the board is free to make a grant for its development?
To extend their activities.
Very good. As to the maintenance of an industry under Section 5, I still hold that the board has to maintain such an industry after it has been established, despite the Minister's assurance that the board has only power to make an initial grant and that then the industry must sink or swim.
Section 5 says that the board can provide sites or premises for the establishment, development or maintenance in an undeveloped area of an industrial undertaking.
Does that not definitely include maintenance after the business has been got going?
No. The board may only provide financial assistance in the form laid down in the Bill.
In cases where there may be mineral deposits and it is possible to work them, can the board make a grant or give assistance to a group of private industrialists who may wish to extract minerals from the land and to process them?
No. There is assistance available at present and has been for some time for the opening up of mineral deposits. It would be possible for the board to consider an application from a group wanting to process minerals.
Will this Bill prevent the same body from mining minerals and providing their own raw material?
Mineral exploration is a different matter. Exploration work, in the sense of prospecting for minerals is done by private individuals who get a prospecting licence or by the geological survey or Mianraí Teóranta. Following prospecting, there comes exploration which may mean boring or digging in the ground to find out what is there. Then there is commercial development which private enterprise may undertake. For commercial development there has been considerable State assistance to those interested.
Assuming that a deposit has been discovered, then the board can come to the assistance of a company to mine that deposit and process the raw material?
That is right.
A good deal of discussion has centred around the fact that industries in the West may suffer because of the distance from the ports here. We should not lose sight of the fact that we hope that the market for some of these industries which may be established may be our own country. We hope that the people of this country will purchase a large portion of their output. Let us hope also that they will have a good exportable surplus. On the Second Reading, I said that the development of other ports should ease the present situation and help towards breaking up the monopoly which exists to a large extent by having all the traffic canalised through the ports of Dublin and Cork. We all know that during the last emergency we were dependent on these two ports for the import and export traffic of the country. The development of other ports is essential, particularly in the West where most of the industries will be established under the Bill.
The Deputy must be aware that all the western ports such as Limerick, Galway, Sligo, etc. are being improved and extended with State financial help.
I know that they have been improved very much but further improvement is necessary. It will also be necessary for some Department to put before traders the necessity of diverting some of their traffic to these ports. It is not good enough to spend sums of money in the development of these ports if they are to be allowed to lie idle. Some efforts must be made to induce traders and others to use these ports. Prior to the first world war most of the western ports were very busy centres of activity. The first world war disorganised that trade and the western ports have never recovered from that. That has been a huge loss to the country and I believe is responsible for the lopsided working of Córas Iompair Éireann in recent years. It is not a good thing that the bulk of the traffic should virtually be confined to two ports. The volume of traffic has increased very considerably in recent years. Now that quite a few of the western ports have been put into a reasonable order by the expenditure of public money, coupled with this Bill there should be an increase of activity in the Department to ensure that a reasonable proportion of the trade will be diverted to those western ports so as to get them going again. We hear a lot of talk about people not investing in enterprise in the so-called undeveloped areas. If what I suggest is done there will be a change of attitude in regard to that.
This is the most important section in the Bill because it includes the general powers of the board. While I agree with Deputy Briscoe that it is a good Bill, I only say it is a good Bill because it is not a bad Bill.
But I would not wax too enthusiastic about it. I have expressed fears and I trust that my fears are unfounded. I would like stronger assurances from the Minister in relation to the question of competition with eastern industries. We have given substantial sums of money and we have bent a tremendous amount of effort towards the preservation of the Gaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and towards the preservation of the people in Connacht generally. This is just another effort to keep the people in the Gaeltacht by providing employment for them.
I have no decided views on the matter and I have no suggestions to make to the Minister but if I were to tackle the problem I would do the reverse of what Cromwell did when he gave the people the choice of hell or Connaught. I think we should industrialise that portion of the country best suited for industrialisation and we should develop the West in an entirely different fashion. Deputy Norton is not very optimistic about the Bill. I may appear optimistic when I say that I do not want to see a number of what I describe as artificial industries created in the West, artificial industries which may try to command from the consuming public artificial prices.
I want to see the natural resources of the West developed. I want to see processing industries established there. I want the resources that are actually there developed. I think I am right in describing industries such as the toy industry, which requires its raw materials to be transported to the West and the finished product transported back again, as artificial industries. To some extent the West is being pampered under this particular measure.
Some pampering.
For a number of years the Government has given food subsidies. It gives the same subsidy to the man in the West as it does to a man in the City of Dublin or the town of Wexford. Here it is proposed to give a subsidy to an industrialist who wants to go to the West and to the people who are living there. I suggest that the East is industrially underdeveloped. There are unemployed in Wexford town, in Enniscorthy, Gorey, and New Ross just as there are unemployed in the towns of Wicklow and Louth and Dublin City. They are unemployed because we are not fully industrialised.
I want to urge upon the Minister that he should impress upon the board that it should not encourage in the West the establishment of artificial industries which would be in unfair competition with those established elsewhere throughout the country. I rather imagine that the board should have greater powers to implement a policy of decentralisation and I would like to see power given to the board to give a certain concession, whether it be a tax concession or a rates concession, to every industry established outside the City of Dublin.
In the provincial towns we have to-day industries which are suffering from unfair competition. I might name one of which the Department has knowledge and which was set up at the instigation of the Fianna Fáil Government from 1932 onwards. I refer to the Irish Driver-Harris Company. Recently a similar industry has been established in Dublin and the former is suffering unfair competition because of the burden of transport charges. There is nothing that the Minister can do about it at the moment but I suggest that the Government should give some type of protection in order fully to implement the wishes of the House in relation to decentralisation.
I impress upon the Minister that he should urge this board to give assistance and encouragement only to industries which are absolutely appropriate to the West. He should not try to develop a part of the country which is not suitable for industrial development. Perhaps in the future we will have a measure to discourage the industrialists from setting up their industries in the City of Dublin which has become top heavy and to give them the fullest encouragement we can by way of tax concessions and so forth to establish themselves in the provincial towns where they will absorb the unemployed.
I am wondering why the board is given power to give financial assistance to ensure the maintenance of a factory or a business. I cannot understand what type of assistance will be given or under what circumstances it will be given. I cannot see why a grant should be made for maintenance purposes to an existing industry. To my mind that is giving a grant more or less in retrospect. These people have taken their chance.
I do not pretend to be a draftsman but the grant is given for the establishment, development and maintenance of an industry; in other words, help cannot be given merely to get the industry started if it is going to flop immediately. There must be some assurance that it will be maintained and the grant is given for the purpose of ensuring that, if it is established, it will be maintained. I agree the legal phraseology is a bit misleading.
Suppose the Board gives £50,000 to a particular group to start an industry in the West and, six months later they decide to sell they will probably pocket £60,000.
No. That is provided for in the Schedule.
When Deputy Norton spoke on the section, I listened carefully to him and I found very little difference of view between himself and the Minister. I think an examination of what he said will indicate that. It is being sought on this section to discuss the relative merits of private enterprise and State enterprise. I am one of those people who believe in State enterprise as the more satisfactory method, but, as far as this Bill is concerned, its object is to encourage private enterprise, and for that purpose a particular type of board is provided for in the Bill. I do not think any sensible person could give to the type of board visualised and provided for in this Bill the power to set up State industries. I do not think that is feasible at all.
Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,
I think there was no necessity for a discussion on this section on the relative merits of these two ways of doing a particular job. Everyone agrees that this is one of several measures designed to assist in the development of industry in the western seaboard areas. We have the activities of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, the activities of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, mineral development by Mianraí Teoranta, the Electricity Supply Board, Bord na Móna, and the Industrial Development Authority—we have all these State organisations—contributing in one way or another to the desirable objective of providing employment in those undeveloped areas, to stem emigration and raise the standard of living of the people there.
I can see, in regard to this measure, that it has an exceptionally good objective. It is desirable to encourage industrialists to get industries going in these areas. It seeks to encourage local effort by local development associations in the starting of industries in those particular areas. I think criticism on the line that the Bill is not going to do any good, or is going to do comparatively little good, is not desirable. I think that what we ought to do is to encourage both industrialists and local organisations to avail of the provisions of this Bill. I should certainly like to see the £2,000,000 provided in the Bill expended as quickly as possible. If that money is expended, it will achieve the object of the Bill. It may be that this Bill will not achieve its purpose and that more radical steps will have to be taken. That may be necessary. I hope it will not be necessary, but if it is, at least we will have had the experience of this Bill to guide us, because everything that could possibly be done to encourage industrialists to start industries in the undeveloped areas is to be found in this Bill.
The Government and this House are providing the money and providing all those exceptional facilities. I think that the Bill ought to leave the House with the blessing and support of every Deputy so that industrialists and local associations will be encouraged to avail of the very fine financial provisions that are in it. As I said at the beginning, I do not think that this particular section afforded a suitable occasion for a contest on the issue between private enterprise and State enterprise.
We want one to supplement the other.
That was the issue in the amendment we have just voted on. What I want to say is that State enterprise can be more efficiently provided for in another measure, because to give the board that is visualised by this Bill power to set up industries would mean giving it work which it was not fitted to do under the Bill. I think that is perfectly clear. This Bill provides financial assistance for private industry to create, establish and maintain industries in the undeveloped areas. I think we should leave the Bill in that form.
During this debate we have got more information on this subject than we have got at any other time.
That is the object of debate. If debate enlightens it is successful.
I would call it the most successful debate that we have yet had in the House.
What we want is not successful debate but successful industries run in an efficient and successful way. I think the Bill ought to be taken as a comprehensive measure to encourage private enterprise and to get industries going in these particular areas. If it is to be supplemented by State enterprise, then a Bill to do that can be introduced in which efficient machinery for the establishment of State-run industries can be set up.
Will the Minister explain further what he said in answer to the last point raised by Deputy Corish?
I was not quite correct, except to this extent, that where the board builds a factory premises and leases it to somebody to carry on activities there it will remain the property of the board, but, under an amendment which I propose to put in the Schedule, the board will be free to dispose of it if, at any time, it is not being used for the purpose for which it was built.
The Minister says that he intends to move an amendment. I have been looking through the Schedule to see if that point was covered.
Where the board gives a grant either for the cost of construction of premises or providing equipment, it can attach such terms as it thinks fit. You may assume that normally the board will attach such terms to the grant as will ensure that in the event of the people getting the help not proceeding with the enterprise they will be liable to repay the amount granted.
I wonder can the Minister do it exactly in that way. I see what the Minister is aiming at and I am aiming at the same thing. But I do not think he should restrict himself to the word "grant" in this section, and even more so than it applies in this section, it applies in Section 6 in connection with machinery. After all, premises cannot move overnight, machinery can. If it is a grant it should be made subject to the condition that the business remains in the same place
Or the particular business will be carried on.
Yes, but would it not be a proper technical way of doing what the Minister has in mind to provide that the board may give a non-repayable loan if the conditions are carried out? As I see this from a legal angle, you can give a grant but you cannot provide that the grant can be repaid because it is a grant. If you gave a loan it could be turned into a grant and you could provide that, in the event of a breach of conditions, the money would be repaid.
Or give the grant under contract to the recipient, providing that in the event of his not carrying on the business he will repay the amount of the grant or not dispose of the premises or the machinery without the concurrence of the board.
As an interest bearing debenture—that would meet the point of the Deputy.
I am inclined to think that if the board give a grant of, say, £50,000 to set up an industry in, let us say, Belmullet, the board may wake up some morning and find that the machinery for which they gave half the cost has gone. They would have an action perhaps against the company which may be then in liquidation; the company liquidators will have done nothing wrong in paying out the proceeds of the sale, because until such time as the board get their decree that the conditions of the grant have been broken, there will not be a fixed claim against the liquidators and the liquidators will be entitled to distribute the assets. If it was a loan, repayment of which would be waived provided the conditions were kept for a period of seven years or whatever the period was, then the liquidator would not be in the same position.
I admit that there is more risk in the case of a grant towards machinery because it is transportable.
The question arises more urgently under Section 6.
In the case of premises, it would be based upon the theory that in the event of the industry not proving practicable the premises could not be sold for what it cost to construct.
In any event in the case of premises it would be of some utility for a factory for the State.
Is it not a great danger to have too many restrictions imposed?
Yes, you must leave it to the discretion of the board.
I do not think, using the word "grant", they can impose restrictions.
I do not wish to make a speech on the Committee Stage of this Bill but having heard speeches from some of the Deputies, particularly my friend Deputy Peadar Cowan, I think it would not be right to let them pass without some comment. I heard the Tánaiste to-day saying that the purpose of the board would be to give grants not loans—I think I am quoting him correctly in saying that. But we find under this particular section that the board may acquire land and may build premises and then it may look for recipients for the grants. I think the Tánaiste said in reply to a question to-day that they built a beet factory in Tuam, and that they found difficulty in procuring beet. They had to encourage the local farmer to grow it and they had to transport some. We may find the board acquiring premises and land, and building premises, but then they may find no private enterprise.
I do not think that is likely to happen initially. It is true that is what the British Government did and got substantial results—they built factories and then they looked for people to operate them. But I do not think we will work on those lines.
There is the danger we will leave it to the discretion of the board to acquire these premises and acquire land and possibly expend a considerable amount of the £2,000,000 on the lands and the buildings and then we may have no private enterprise willing to come in and operate them. It would be quite all right if we had State enterprise. One could imagine such a situation arising as occurred in the case of the Tuam beet factory.
That is a State enterprise.
It is, but one can imagine the board finding themselves in the same position, building premises such as that.
The sugar company are now growing beet in order to fill the factory in Tuam.
It is a good thing to see them growing it but it is a bad thing to see them transporting it from other areas into Tuam.
Their costings would be interesting.
That is the only thing I see wrong with the section. I welcome the Bill. The one criticism I have is that it includes too many counties. I think it should be confined entirely to the electoral areas of the old Congested Districts Board. I do not for instance see that the entire County of Roscommon should be included. I am saying on the Committee Stage what I should have said on the Second Reading. As I say, I welcome the Bill but that is the one fault I find with Section 5. The board may acquire premises and land. It would be much better if they let private enterprise acquire land and build premises and then give them the grants.
There must be an undertaking but, of course, the power to acquire land is to prevent the value of land being pushed up against the board.
Would it not be a greater incentive to pushing up the value if the board took the land?
The board can acquire land compulsorily.
Surely it would acquire it at market value. My idea is this. Private enterprise would acquire it much cheaper than a public board and I think if we made the grants available for the purpose of acquiring and erecting the premises and establishing industry, it would be much better than having the board acquire the premises.
They can do that. Under paragraph 7 of sub-section (1) the board may make grants to aid persons to acquire land.
That is nullified by the previous sub-section. You may have two sides clashing. You may have the promoter endeavouring to acquire and at the same time you may have the board endeavouring to acquire. You can visualise the two sides who wish to establish a certain industry— one of them saying: "We will forestall the board by acquiring ourselves," whereas the other says: "We will get the board to acquire."
The board will not be helping two factories to start on the same site.
I have seen it in my area.
Not on the same site.
That is the only criticism one can find in the section. I welcome the Bill. I think the Minister has done a fair amount towards relieving unemployment in the congested areas by introducing it. I think he has brought in too great an area under the scope of the Bill and that is my only objection to this particular section.
I want to correct what I believe to be a misapprehension on the part of Deputy Cowan. He said we were raising on this section State enterprise as opposed to private enterprise. We are not doing anything of the kind. We are allowing Section 5 to stand.
Deputy Murphy did.
We can allow Deputy Murphy his social concepts. I do not think he will stay long with us.
I speak from the experience of what I have seen in my constituency.
I am very glad to have that resolution on your part.
If I can get this scheme going and can achieve all the objects, I do not mind who comes up against me.
On this section I sought to include an amendment, the purpose of which was not to displace private enterprise as a means of developing industries in the West but rather to supplement it by encouraging the State to come in and develop industries in areas where it was satisfied private enterprise was not likely to come in and start an industrial undertaking. It was not, therefore, the desire on our part to replace private enterprise by State enterprise.
Our desire was, in our anxiety to develop the West, that the State should be entitled to encourage private enterprise to come in and start an industrial undertaking and that, at the same time, where private enterprise was likely not to be forthcoming the State should itself undertake the establishment of these industrial undertakings, so providing employment. We feel that the State should step in where private enterprise was unwilling, even with the advantages set out in this Bill, to establish industries.
That was my point.
We welcome this Bill. Deputy Briscoe has sought, in his typically mischievous way, to misrepresent our attitude towards this Bill. Every Deputy on these benches welcomed this Bill and supported it on the Second Stage. Our main desire is to ensure that the Bill is utilised to the fullest extent as a means of planting industries in the West. Our fear, however, is that this may not be done satisfactorily, having regard to the magnitude of the task, by relying on private enterprise alone. We in the Labour Party seek to supplement private enterprise by State activities. We believe that a combination of both will give the West more industries than they will get by a reliance on private enterprise alone.
I am not satisfied that private enterprise could not have done more in the West, and the reason it has not done more is the very basis of this Bill. As the Minister has pointed out, the people who had the money and those who had some technical skill knew very well that they could not hope to compete successfully with a similar industry operating elsewhere. I cannot understand the viewpoint of the Deputies who say that the activities of Foras Tionscal should be directed, in the main, to what I would call basic industries, or industries founded on the mineral deposits of the West, and that the setting up of secondary industries ought not to be encouraged in that area. I do not see any virtue in that argument. I would say that export commodities should be given priority in the West because, in any event, they would have less fear from internal competition. It would be a matter of exporting the goods from the nearest harbour.
On the question of secondary industries, I will make the following comments. Is there any reason why ropes could not be manufactured as economically in Connacht as in Leinster? If the raw material for secondary industries has to be imported, I feel that it is quite immaterial where these industries are placed. It seems to me that secondary industries should be encouraged in the West more so, in fact, than in the East for the reason stated in the introduction to the Bill; where you have not got good land, then you must endeavour to keep the population from emigrating by some other means. It is quite possible that we can increase the total population of the country by a scheme of general industrialisation without reference to any particular area.
I take it that the purpose of this Bill is to ensure that the population will be distributed as fully as possible over the entire country. In view of the fact that the preservation of the Gaeltacht is inextricably linked up with these proposals, I think that the encouragement of all types of industry west of the Shannon will help to achieve that objective. These Gaelic speakers mostly emigrate to towns, whether they be in England or in America. The function of this Bill is to secure that the industrial centre will be as near to their native habitat as is possible to achieve. The fact is that the population of Connacht has been falling more heavily, proportionately, than in any other constituencies in the country.
I do not think the speakers who brought up questions such as land development, or even mineral exploration, have a proper conception of what the problems are. What we should encourage are industries that can be most readily established, because of the urgency of this problem. Mineral exploration in the West is a very problematical proposal entirely. A fair amount of prospecting has been carried on there. The people who undertook it told us that the minerals were there all right but they were not satisfied that they were there in sufficient quantity. Whilst in operation, these works give employment, just as the making of bog roads, which is also a very useful activity, gives employment. It is not, however, the type of employment that induces men from the West to make their homes here, because their future is doubtful. We are making a new departure under this Bill in setting up ordinary industries which will hold out an inducement to young men to settle down and make their homes here. That is what is required.
With regard to State industries, we have made an attempt in that direction. We have in the West alcohol production, sugar production, boatyards, knitting, weaving, spinning and the manufacture of toys—all State industries. Everybody admits that the way to solve the problem of inducing private enterprise to engage in industrial development in the West is to encourage and protect it. Here for the first time we are developing the idea of home protection by creating a bias in favour of these areas. It is for that reason that I think the idea enshrined in this Bill is a good one. Industries are the only way by which you can stop emigration which is a problem apart from, and which has nothing to do with, land development, afforestation or anything of that kind.
Is the Deputy serious about that?
The Deputy is quite serious and I shall demonstrate it to Deputy Blowick if necessary.
On some other occasion.
Is Deputy Blowick not aware that you cannot rearrange holdings on a large number of estates without migrating families from these estates?
I am aware that it is possible to give them a very large measure of employment outside industrial employment and side by side with it.
I am afraid that our views do not coincide on this question.
Or on several.
You cannot have land development and afforestation in places where you have not got land sufficient for either purpose—for either planting people or trees on it.
This does not arise on Section 5.
In any event, this idea is quite new. I am convinced that private enterprise in the West will now rise to the occasion. I have had very practical evidence of that in one particular town in the West of Ireland. It is a new idea and it is putting the question up to private enterprise which, I think, is desirable. All the handicaps which existed against private enterprise are now being removed. If private enterprise in the West does not now take advantage of its opportunities, then, as the Minister has said, he will have to see what other powers he will use to achieve this purpose. If it cannot be achieved, we have got to look forward to the continued depopulation of the West. It has been suggested that we might transfer workers from the West to other parts of the country but how that would affect the Gaeltacht I do not know.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."
Will the Minister look into the point I made?
I shall, certainly, but I do not quite see what safeguard you can provide except to leave it to the intelligence of the board.
It is only a question of whether by using the word "grant" you are tying the board's hands.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 7 agreed to.
SECTION 8.
I move amendment No. 13:—
In sub-section (1), paragraph (a), line 22, after "lines" to insert "and facilities".
This is a drafting amendment to make it clear that in addition to railway lines, other facilities, such as landing chutes, will be provided.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 8, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 9.
I move amendment No. 14:—
To delete sub-sections (3) and (4) and substitute the following:—
(3) The remission shall, subject to sub-section (4), have effect in respect of the local financial year next following that in which the decision to grant the remission is made and in respect of each of the next nine local financial years.
(4) If, in any local financial year, the board certify that the undertaking has failed to observe the terms upon which the premises were provided, the remission shall not have effect in respect of that local financial year.
As the section stood, if a person getting the concession failed to carry out his undertakings and the remission was withdrawn, it was withdrawn irrevocably and he could not get it back. The amendment is to ensure that should the conditions, under which the remission of rates was originally granted, be fulfilled at a later date, then the remission can be given back to him.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 15:—
To delete sub-section (8).
Amendment agreed to.
Section 9, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 10 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
I move amendment No. 16:—
To amend paragraph 2 by the deletion, in sub-paragraph (3), lines 34 and 35, of the word "remuneration" and the insertion before sub-paragraph (4) of a new sub-paragraph as follows:—
(4) Each member shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the board such remuneration as the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, determines.
This amendment is to provide that the remuneration for members of the board, whatever it may be, will be paid out of the funds of the board—in other words, that the total expenditure will come out of the funds of the board.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 17 and 18 not moved.
Amendment No. 18 provides for quarterly reports which I think would be impracticable.
It is not a question of the wording of the amendment. I think that a report should be put on the Table of the House at some stage. The amendment which the Minister has moved and which has been accepted does not provide that the board shall give full particulars. If the Minister would give an undertaking to give all the particulars in the annual report——
This section of the Schedule is in the usual form—
"that the board shall submit in such form as the Minister may direct."
I certainly agree that the report should contain particulars of the grants given.
I take it that provision will be made in the Bill to provide the information asked for?
Yes, under Section 11 of the Schedule. It will be an annual report instead of a quarterly report which, I think, would be impracticable.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
I move amendment No. 19:—
In paragraph 1, page 8, to delete sub-paragraph (4) and substitute the following:—
(4) A notice under this paragraph may be served on any person by sending it by registered post in an envelope addressed to him at his usual or last known address.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment No. 20:—
To add a new paragraph as follows:—
The board may sell or lease any land vested in them which is no longer required for the purpose of their functions.
As the paragraph stood, the board had no power to dispose of property of which it recovered possession. Amendment No. 20 provides that the board may sell or lease any land which is no longer required by them and any moneys secured by the board will go back into the Exchequer, not into the board's funds.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 21:—
To add a new paragraph as follows:—
Any moneys received by the board in respect of the disposal of land, whether by sale, lease or otherwise, shall be paid into or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer in such manner as the Minister for Finance may direct.
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Second Schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Can the Minister say whether the powers and procedure as regards the acquisition of lands that are incorporated in the Bill are the same as the powers and procedure of Bord na Móna?
Yes. These are standard provisions.
Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill as amended reported to the House.
Report Stage ordered for Thursday, 13th December, 1951.