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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Feb 1952

Vol. 129 No. 8

Tourist Traffic Bill, 1951—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Byrne

I shall not detain the House very long because any comments I have to make concerning tourist traffic will be very brief. I join with my colleagues who have already spoken in saying that we welcome any measure calculated to improve tourist traffic in this country. My opening comment is concerned with the first impressions which people visiting this country are likely to receive. These first impressions are not likely to be very pleasant when tourists arrive at Dún Laoghaire at 7 o'clock in the morning and are packed into overcrowded shabby carriages which were upholstered some 25 or 30 years ago and in which the upholstering is now worn out. As many as 20 persons are packed into a coach which has accommodation only for 12 persons. There is generally a delay of about an hour before they get to Westland Row. I would ask the Minister to point out to Córas Iompair Éireann that the impressions which people are likely to gather from treatment of that kind are not good for the country and that he should urge on Córas Iompair Éireann the necessity of taking steps to improve the facilities available at Dún Laoghaire.

Again, the Minister might turn his attention to the accommodation provided for passengers travelling by the Scotch boat to and from the North Wall. Last year many passengers were stranded there for quite a considerable time. The sheds were not opened nor was any toilet or rest-room accommodation provided — not even a glass of water for mothers accompanied by their babies. Passengers were delayed for many hours; in fact, on one occasion they were waiting there all night to get on the boat. I hope the Minister will impress on these companies that if they wish to increase their passenger traffic they must provide the same facilities as any up-to-date railway company would.

I pass from that to dwell for a moment on the system by which cross-Channel travellers have to get two sets of tickets. They first of all go to the booking office on the other side and buy a return ticket. Some of them foolishly believe that that entitles them to get on the boat at any time from the date of issue and when they wish to return from their holidays they find it very difficult to get travel tickets for the day on which their holiday expires. I have known some passengers who had to wait seven hours in a queue outside the shipping offices to get travel tickets and who were even then disappointed and had to come back again the next day. In most cases the type of travellers concerned were not the millionaire type, but the good type of people who bring over a couple of weeks' wages and spend them here. They generally leave on the last day of their holidays when they are down to their last 10/- note. I hold that no obstacles should be placed in the way of their travelling when their holidays are up so that they may always have pleasant recollections of this country.

I should like to refer to the provisions dealing with the licensing of hotels and holiday camps. I do not know whether anybody who has so far spoken has touched on this matter, but Deputies will note that we, the elected representatives of the people, are being asked to surrender certain rights to criticise legislation for the licensing of such houses. Mind you, I am not a kill-joy; I like to see a man take a bottle of stout or a glass of whiskey, but I think this Bill provides facilities for excessive drinking. The erection of a 20-roomed hotel or building, temporary or otherwise, appears to give a guarantee to the person erecting that building that he will get a fully-licensed house — not an ordinary hotel or restaurant licence but one which will enable him to keep open doors for everybody. What is to prevent anybody who cares to erect a building of that kind capturing the trade of, say, four small local public houses in a district near the City of Dublin, between here and Bray or between here and Wicklow, a little beyond Bray? He has only to submit the blueprint of such a building without spending any money and on the submission of these plans he is told that he can have a full licence, a licence which will permit him to have a fancy lounge bar in the building.

It will not be open to the public.

Mr. Byrne

He can take the trade from the three or four public houses that may be already in existence in the vicinity and crush out the unfortunate proprietors of these public houses, people who have been in the business for years. They will find themselves pushed out because of the encouragement given in this Bill to somebody to put up the money to build a 20-room hotel for which they are guaranteed a licence.

Only a hotel licence, not a public bar.

Mr. Byrne

I am glad to hear that that is so. It is not clear in the Bill.

It is quite clear.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister's word is good enough for me. But even if what he says is right, people can always get round these restrictions by going in for a sandwich merely as an excuse to consume drink. I notice in the Bill a provision to which considerable opposition was expressed here in another connection two years ago. When a person applies for a licence for a hotel with 20 bedrooms, although that licence will mean increased drinking facilities in the neighbourhood, no other person can object. What does that mean? I refer to the provision at the top of page 12 of the Bill which says that

"the court shall not receive any objection to the application".

If the authorities or any private persons think that there are already sufficient drinking facilities in that neighbourhood and want to object to any additional facilities being granted, why should we take that right from them? That is what we, the elected representatives of the people, are being asked to do.

Are we not trying to get in tourists and to provide hotel accommodation for them?

Mr. Byrne

Not at the expense of excessive drinking.

That is all bunkum.

Mr. Byrne

Certainly I want tourists to come to this country. We are getting them at present and we are going to get them in larger numbers this year, because they will have no other place to go to. Nobody can take any special credit for that. Visitors are coming in their hundreds, if not in their thousands, to Dublin this year. Please God, they will come and spend their money here. We should not provide these drinking facilities in every little town and village in this country where there is a hill or a lake and capture the trade from our own people. I will go further — and this will shock a lot of people. There is provision in the Bill for Sundays, Christmas Day, Saint Patrick's Day and even Good Friday. The relevant sections in the Bill are Sections 43, 44 and 45. Section 43 refers to prohibited hours and Sections 44 and 45 read, respectively, as follows:—

"Nothing in Section 43 shall operate to prohibit the licensee from supplying intoxicating liquor on a Sunday, Christmas Day or Saint Patrick's Day to be consumed on the licensed premises —

(a) by a person who for the time being is bona fide lodging in the holiday camp—between the hours of half-past seven o'clock in the evening and, during a period of summer time, half-past ten o'clock in the evening, or, during any other period, ten o'clock in the evening, or

(b) by any person—between the hours of one o'clock and three o'clock in the afternoon or between the hours of six o'clock and nine o'clock in the evening, if, in this case, the intoxicating liquor is —

(i) ordered by that person at the same time as a substantial meal is ordered by him, and

(ii) consumed at the same time as and with the meal, and

(iii) supplied and consumed in the portion of the licensed premises usually set apart for the supply of meals.

Nothing in Section 43 shall operate to prohibit the licensee from supplying intoxicating liquor on Good Friday between the hours of one o'clock and three o'clock in the afternoon or the hours of six o'clock and nine o'clock in the evening to a person who for the time being is bona fide lodging in the holiday camp, if the intoxicating liquor is —

(a) ordered by that person at the same time as a substantial meal is ordered by him, and

(b) consumed at the same time as and with the meal, and

(c) supplied and consumed in the portion of the licensed premises usually set apart for the supply of meals."

The provision is made for the people in the holiday camps—but what about the position of the small licensed traders in Balbriggan or Skerries or anywhere else near a holiday camp? The provision is not for the people in County Wicklow or elsewhere. You are providing the facilities to enable people in holiday camps to drink on Sundays, Christmas Day, St. Patrick's Day and Good Friday. A year ago this House would not tolerate that position — yet now it is being incorporated in a measure and being rushed through the House. I think that that is wrong.

I hope the Minister will agree that my points are worthy of consideration by every member of the House. If holiday camps are established here, they are welcome. I have been through some of them and I found them well run and well managed and that they give good employment. Nevertheless, the principal portion of their business must not relate to continuous drinking which can lead to so many other dangers, especially as these camps are generally situated within reasonable distance of towns and cities. Take, for example, the danger of motor accidents.

Though the Bill is a step in the right direction, I earnestly entreat the Minister to give careful consideration to the problems I have outlined. I think he should seek advice from other authorities on whether this encouragement of and provision for excessive drinking facilities are wise.

What authorities has the Deputy in mind?

If I had the task of producing "The Merchant of Venice" I should allot the part of Shylock to Deputy Byrne because it is obvious from his statements that he is looking for his pound of flesh.

You produce a play!

Mr. Byrne

This matter is much too serious to be made a joke of.

That, indeed, would be a queer production. Would you have the widow in it?

This Bill is a serious matter and should be given the attention and consideration it deserves.

Deputy Byrne praises the Bill — but dare we do certain things. The part of Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" would indeed suit Deputy Byrne. This Bill is a very important Bill from an economic and a national point of view. I am delighted to note that since the Minister for Industry and Commerce made his opening statement on this Bill in the House yesterday there have been so many conversions to his outlook. A number of Deputies on the Opposition Benches have changed their minds on the matter of tourism over the past few years. Experience in office has at least succeeded in enlightening these Opposition Deputies on the value of the tourist industry to the country. We must not forget that the tourist industry is the second greatest industry in this country and that it is a national industry.

I welcome the provisions of this Bill. I feel that the Bill is a step in the right direction towards national self-sufficiency. I consider that it should not be left to the hoteliers alone to see that this industry functions. I feel very strongly that it is wrong from a national as well as from an economic point of view for any hotel in any part of the country to take advantage of any visitor, whether the visitor be a native or a foreigner, by overcharging or by not treating him as he should be treated. I hope the Minister will take action to deal severely with such people because they are a peril to the advancement of the nation so far as this industry is concerned. I have received reports in that connection on various occasions and I have had personal experience of it. However, I do not intend to take advantage of this House to refer to anything of a personal nature. Anybody who is gaining anything through the tourist industry should realise that it is more than an individual effort. If it should be proved that people who want to get rich quick, by means of the tourist industry or of any national effort, abuse their privileges and abuse the trust that is placed in them, they should be deprived of their licence and not allowed to operate an hotel.

When world affairs settle down, please God, in the near future, we shall be up against the problem of competing for tourists with other countries. In order to make a success of the industry we shall require honest and faithful service from everybody connected with it. I think it would be well for those people in our towns and villages and cities who profit by the tourist industry to form committees and go a bit out of their way to welcome strangers who may visit their area. By these remarks I do not mean that the committee should go out with a band or anything like that but they could do a lot of good work, from a publicity point of view, in their area. They might even go so far as to publish pamphlets containing information on matters of local interest. If there are any landmarks or historic monuments or beauty spots in the district it ought not be very much trouble to write a few paragraphs about them and so make the visitor's stay more interesting and enjoyable. The whole of the work should not be allowed to devolve on those who are running the hotels in the district. Other people in the locality should co-operate with a view to making the stay of the visitor more pleasant.

Any act which may cause people to spend more money in our country will react beneficially on everybody in the country, from the labourer to the highest man in the land. For that reason, I think that a greater national revival should be encouraged amongst our people — and our county councils should have a hand in that matter also. I suggest that, if at all possible, a responsible officer of the county council should be asked to prepare a short and simple history of the district so as to assist the Tourist Board and to encourage the people to visit the area. If visitors are given an outline of the history of the district and get some information as to the landmarks and the historic places of interest there, they will derive more pleasure from their visit and take more interest in the district. I think that the importance of that aspect of the matter cannot be over-emphasised. People like to remember something of a district when they leave it. That type of publicity work has been done for years past in other countries who realise the value of the tourist industry and experience has shown that these little extra attentions pay good dividends. Therefore, I should like to see that type of work done in this country, too, and I think that our county councils might be asked to co-operate. After all, it would result in bringing more money into their districts.

I come now to the question of signposts. Signposts are very important and under no circumstances should we neglect signposts to places of historic interest. All signposts should be capable of being easily read by motorists and should be well placed.

We all know that at most seaside resorts and, indeed, in other places also, there are well-known paths and walks which are very pleasant. A tendency is creeping in, especially in County Dublin, to block these paths with barbed wire and to put up notices to the effect that the paths are private. It can easily be understood that it is often very pleasant to walk along these paths and that it is most annoying to be debarred from doing so. The Tourist Board and the county council should take up this matter and try to remedy it. If this develops it will mean that they will prevent people from walking along by the sea except there is a main road there. I do not suggest that anybody should interfere with private property or destroy it. I am talking of old paths which have been there for generations and are now being interfered with by people who took up residence and who say: "This is my place and I have a right to it." These are things which should be preserved by the county councils and the Tourist Board.

I also welcome the section in the Bill dealing with the improvement of our seaside resorts and providing for the giving of loans to companies or private individuals through the Tourist Board in order to improve the amenities of certain places. In wet weather families who come to these places have no amusement provided for them. We have to move with the times, and I am delighted that the Minister, in his wisdom, is dealing with that matter in the Bill. County councils and people who are gaining by the tourist industry in an area should definitely co-operate in this matter. We cannot expect the State to do everything. If they do not co-operate, then the Minister's work will not be completely successful. The Minister is doing his best and the Government are doing their best. This has been one of the chief points in our programme all along. We want to see that the work is carried out properly and the people concerned throughout the country will have to realise their responsibilities in regard to it. People who gain by the tourist industry will have to spend some money in order to encourage tourists to come here. They will have to provide amusements and other amenities for them. Under this Bill they will be able to get a loan to assist them in doing that work.

The county councils around Dublin and the Dublin Corporation have been lacking in providing such amenities in the seaside resorts. Dublin is one of our biggest tourist centres. More tourists stay in hotels in Dublin and adjacent to Dublin than in any other part of Ireland. In regard to the provision of amenities at Howth, Portmarnock, and other seaside places along the coast these bodies are trying to pass the baby from one to the other. On a wet day there is no place in which people can take shelter. The county councils and private individuals who are profiting by the tourist industry should take the matter up and try to assist in every way they can.

As to the membership of the proposed board, I heard suggestions made last night that there should be some specialists on it. I should like to see some specialists on it, but I have misgivings about certain gentlemen. I am not referring to any person on the present board or any board. I would prefer, if possible, to see men on it with specialised training but they should also have a national outlook generally on the matter and not a narrow outlook. If people with a narrow outlook are on the board, you will never get anywhere. We have many people with a few hotels who would not be any addition to the board from the point of view of the general interest. If we are to get anywhere, we have to get people with a proper outlook, people who will take the long view, who will see that the proper thing will be done, and that there will be fair play for all sections dealing with the tourist industry.

There is a lot to be desired in connection with the accommodation provided for the reception of tourists at Dún Laoghaire and the North Wall by the companies operating the services there. That matter should be taken up again. Proper facilities should be at the disposal of people coming into the country. That may require a certain expenditure but the country will gain by it. Even in regard to the provision of facilities for people coming from one side of the country to the other a lot more could be done. I am sure that the Minister and the Tourist Board will see to that matter.

There are a number of other points which I propose to raise on the Committee Stage. I welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the Minister on his foresight in bringing it in. I also wish to be associated with the compliments paid to our American friends who came here to give any assistance they could. I am definitely in favour of men with a proper outlook being connected with the promotion of the tourist industry, men who will not be concerned only with bringing people to their own hotels or this or that hotel, but people who will have regard for the welfare of the nation as a whole. It is up to every person concerned with the industry to see that people who come here will be treated in such a way that they will come back the following year and the year after. We should try to inspire that feeling in people who are in contact with tourists — hoteliers and their staffs, railway companies and their staffs, taximen, etc. We should try to educate these people to have the interests of the country at heart and thus create a good impression amongst tourists. They should recognise that these people are here as our guests and treat them with courtesy and hospitality so that they will be induced to come back. If that is done, as time goes on the lead given by the Minister will be taken up by the nation as a whole.

In his rather rambling speech, Deputy Burke did direct the Minister's attention to one feature which has been a very serious deterrent to tourist development here. There is no doubt that there are certain elements, whether unscrupulous boarding-house keepers or hoteliers, that are exploiting every opportunity they get to charge extortionate prices to the tourists who fall into their clutches. Whether any hierarchy of boards can deal with that is another matter. That is something that I will discuss more fully during this discourse.

I, myself, feel, I think in common with a lot of people in this country, that our whole approach to the tourist is wrong. We seem, for some extraordinary reason, to be anxious to change or to adapt ourselves for tourists, forgetting that we have a country which, in its own history, in its own intrinsic qualities, in its own particular national make-up, in its own tradition and in its own antiquity, needs no change to be an attraction to any tourist. We have that happy variety of lake, mountain and sea; we have happy alternatives for the sportsman, whether it be shooting, fishing, hunting or other forms of sport; we have an inherent, innate and decent sense of courtesy in the normal Irish people, and we have an international reputation as a hospitable race. Why we are anxious to ape somebody else rather than develop our own individuality and develop tourism in this country on the basis only of improving our general conditions for the reception of tourists, as distinct from trying to change the character of our country, I do not know. We seem to be anxious to try to please this section or that section. We seem to be anxious to try to make Ireland something that she is not. I want to see an approach to this problem that is neither apologetic nor in any way anxious to change the face of this country, or the habits of the people of this country, for the benefit of any tourist.

We in this country, at the moment, have everything that is essential to make us distinctively attractive to the tourist. For the tourist from across the water in England, we have the juicy steak that he can only dream of over there. We have here a variety of food and a variety of luxury articles that are not normally available to him under an austerity régime in his own country. He is not coming to Dublin, or to other parts of Ireland, for a holiday on any other basis than this, that he can get here good food, cheap cigarettes, better and cheaper beer and, in general, can have a very much less expensive and an infinitely better holiday in Ireland than elsewhere. Now those tourists are not asking for any new-fangled ideas as regards hygiene or sanitation. All they want is a clean, decent room with a reasonable amount of furniture, a good comfortable bed and reasonable normal facilities in the matter of hygiene and sanitation, with good meals properly served. If that rule of thumb could be put into the general approach to tourism in this country, as distinct from offering specialist luxuries or as distinct from putting showers into every room for somebody who feels that he should have a shower three or four times a day; if, instead of doing that, you could bring up the level of the amenities in this country to a decent general standard while still preserving the innate courtesy of our race and the genuine hospitality and camaraderie of our people by extolling Ireland to the tourist as she is and not as any group or any nation might like her to be, I think that with such an approach to tourism, we can do infinitely more than any legislation can do.

This Bill, to my mind, is only further complicating an already over-complicated system. I know that this Bill was, in the main, conceived and drafted by the Minister's predecessor. The Minister had to bring into the Bill a new stepchild called "An Fógra Fáilte." What purpose can it serve? Readily, there comes to our minds one purpose. It may be a temporary reprieve for displaced persons, or it may be a method by which people can be put back into a position in the tourist industry which they had lost, but is one board on top of another board going to do one whit to develop tourism? I say to the House, and I say earnestly to the Minister, that it is not, and that no name, no compendium of neat sections is going to alter the fact that everybody in this House, irrespective of what side of the House he is on, knows perfectly well who the chairman of "An Fógra Fáilte" is "odds on" to be.

Why has that board been set up at all? It is not very long since the public Press reported the Minister as envisaging the crystallisation of the tourist industry under the control of one single board. We had two, and now, instead of a reduction, we have the addition of a very doubtful stepchild. Money expended in this country on the development of tourism should not be money spent on administration costs. There are portions of Ireland which are internationally known because they have been boosted and photographed. The photographs and the reports have been disseminated throughout the world. There are indeed more places in Ireland still, and if some of this money was used for the purpose you could secure for them a full international appeal. We have some lovely little inlets along our coasts, some glorious mountain pools and mountain fastnesses. They abound in this country. We are not selling Ireland the proper way. We have a wealth of history throughout the length and breadth of this country. It has dotted all over it innumerable places, ruins which are tributes in stone to various eras of glory throughout the whole land. We have a wealth of tradition and story that goes back even to the Tuatha de Danann, whether it be the royal county of Meath with its ancient tumuli or the imposing pile, the Rock of Cashel.

These constitute something worthwhile for the tourist who is not only interested in having a holiday but also wants to see some of the things that have gone into the making of Ireland. These are the things I want to see properly exploited as distinct from setting up boards and making statutory regulations under which one will only succeed in creating administrative difficulties and mounting administrative costs.

We appreciate the immense value the tourist trade has for us. I can admire any Government, therefore, that tries to face up to the huge problem the tourist trade presents. I suggest to the Minister that we should not approach the development of tourism here by a complicated system of administration. It would be infinitely better if we had a more direct kind of control. We know perfectly well from experience in other branches of State development or semi-State development that once the dead hand of the civil servant or semi-civil servant gets a grip on something an immediate deterioration follows and there is never any improvement.

People talk about tourism, but there is a complete lack of co-ordination between the services catering for tourists here. There is no intelligent co-ordination between Córas Iompair Éireann, the Great Northern Railway, the London, Midland and Scottish, and all the others which would enable the tourist to know how and when he will be delivered at the particular spot he has chosen for a holiday.

Instead of setting up Fógra Fáilte, or any other kind of fáilte, it would be much better to have some co-ordinating unit which would draw up a definite schedule under which the Irishman returning from America to some hamlet in the extreme west of Clare, or the Englishman visiting one of the more popular resorts, would be enabled to have a complete itinerary of his journey, his method of transport and the approximate time of his arrival. Lack of such co-ordination is killing the tourist industry here. People arrive and wander around like lost sheep, not knowing where they should go or how they will get there. Such co-ordination as I suggest is something the Government might well turn its mind to rather than to the setting up of new and useless boards.

What about Section 5, under which the Government can give grants to travel agencies. Is not that what a travel agency is for?

That is for pals. Do not be innocent. At any rate, it is not germane to the issue I am raising. Córas Iompair Éireann is a statutory body. The Great Northern Railway will shortly be taken over by the two Governments. Is it impossible to envisage, as distinct from travel agencies, a central co-ordinating unit under some authority whereby the kind of normal approach to the country to which I adverted earlier can be stimulated?

Could not a travel agency give all that information?

The Deputy is innocent. He should wake up. If a travel agency can do all I suggest, why have we these tourist measures at all? Why has this stimulus to come from the State? If we had here a proper approach to tourism and if the tourist could have at his disposal readily available transport, such as is available by some of the trans-world agencies, we would do infinitely better from the national point of view than by the setting up of something to help in advertising the country for the purpose of attracting tourists.

This country needs very little advertisement as a tourist centre. It does need co-ordination of effort in order to ensure that the tourist gets real value for money, reasonable transport facilities and reasonable comfort. Every nation which has built up a tourist industry has done it on the basis of supplying the essentials in a reasonable way. The Minister must face up to the problem of co-ordinating bus, rail and shipping facilities under some general plan so that people will know when they come in how they can get to somewhere else.

The Minister must face up also to the responsibility of ensuring the basic minimum of comfort, cleanliness, hygiene and sanitary arrangements. When that is done the incentive of competition and the incentive of private enterprise as between hotels, boarding-houses, cafés and so on should be the determining factor in the attraction of trade.

I would prefer to see the establishments catering for tourists making improvement in the field of competition rather than under Government direction. Tourism is a lucrative business. There is a good living to be found in it for those who approach it in the right way. It does not need all the nursing, all the aiding and all the abetting by way of grants that some would appear to think. The type of aid the tourist industry really needs is co-ordination between the various services which form part and parcel of the general tourist plan.

One wonders if we are not at times aspiring too high in connection with the provision of suitable hotel accommodation. Are we approaching this in a manner consistent with the general development of the nation? Our State has only been 30 odd years in separate existence. We have made in that period a worthwhile advance in every sphere of national endeavour. The story is portrayed in bricks and mortar, in improved conditions, in improved houses and better farms up and down the country. I would not like to see money diverted from essential national work for the provision of fal-de-lals for tourists. We should give our tourists decent accommodation. We should give them reasonable comfort. We should give them the best of the best food in the world, which happens to-day to be Irish. I am not in favour of pushing too hard after the frills and fancies of international hotel standards.

The tourist who will be an enduring tourist here is the one who comes from America because of a sentimental attachment. Given reasonable comfort and reasonable facilities he will enjoy himself. All he wants to do is to find the old home as it was described to him by his immediate forebears or as it was when he himself left the country 30 or 40 years ago. He does not want to see moat hotels or any other type of great modern structure planked like an eyesore in the middle of what was his parish. He is satisfied with reasonable things and we, as a nation, should be satisfied in bringing our tourist hotel standards and our tourist level to what is reasonable and natural in our general economy. The type of tourist who is not going to come to Ireland because he has not a shower in his room is the type of tourist who is satisfied with going to one place once only in his lifetime.

I exhort the Minister, in his approach to this Bill, to dispense with this third board and to try and crystallise controlling tourism into the smallest possible unit of control and to try and direct the tourist administrative machine towards the ensuring of an all-round minimum standard as distinct from trying to make isolated patches of superlative standard. Let private enterprise develop the superlative standards where it has the superlative market and let the general plan of the country be to keep our country intact in its traditions and to teach our people to be proud of what they have to show in every part of the country as distinct from being apologetic.

We have throughout the length and breadth of this country, not only natural scenic gems but also the various stages of the development of humanity which can be seen either in the museum, with their various ages depicted, or in our ancient monasteries and burial grounds right through the ages up to the most modern times. That is there, unquestionable and undeniable.

We have in this country one thing that we have never exploited to the full. We had brought into the Dáil and put on the Statute Book a Bill to control effectively and develop Irish racing. There is no country in the world in which people can have the sport of racing as reasonable and as cheap as they can have it in this country. The extent to which that is so has never been exploited in advertisements. You can enter any of the principal rings in this country, whether it is Leopardstown, Phoenix Park or the Curragh, for the sum of 10/-. Nobody knows this better than the Tánaiste himself. The equivalent at any race course in England would be £2. The ordinary common silver ring in this country at 2/- or 2/6 compares more than favourably with the rings in England, where the minimum would be about 15/-. There you have something which is inherently attractive to the holiday-maker. There is a feature and centre piece in Irish life that can be exploited. There is something that in its exploitation will be an aid to the further development and the further increase in the export of horses from this country.

You have in this country — as I said in opening — a sportsman's paradise for the yachtsman sailing in our many coves round the coast or sailing in competitive mood at our bigger seaside resorts, or for the huntsman. In this direction, we have seen in recent months where tours have been organised to bring people to Ireland for the hunting season. That is a facet that is natural to the Irish people. Our country abounds in hunter-class horses and in packs of hounds. We have all the marsh, mountain and lake that can attract the sportsman at the various seasons. We have an awful lot to give but I say seriously to the Minister: "Give it to the tourist with a co-ordinated system of transport, with the innate courtesy and hospitality of the Irish people and without any apology."

I am always amused to hear Deputy Collins and other Deputies making references to rambling speeches while at the same time they themselves proceed to ramble all over the country.

There is not much innate courtesy in that statement.

He accused me of being innocent and maybe I am, but in connection with Sections 5 and 6 of the Act there are certain matters upon which I should like to receive some clarification. Section 6 of the Act says:—

"The board may encourage the formation of companies under the Companies Acts, 1908 to 1924, having the object of providing amenities and facilities at tourist resorts and developing tourist traffic at or to such resorts...."

I should like to know what is the meaning of the word "resort" in Section 6 because it is not stated in any part of the Act what the meaning of the word is. It has a certain connotation in ordinary language but there is an ambiguity here which, I think, could be removed if a definition were given of the meaning of this particular word for the purposes of the Act.

Deputy Collins, in the course of his remarks, said for instance, that Irish-Americans and other people coming to this country require merely proper meals, properly served. He also said that they required reasonable furniture and reasonable things generally. Other Deputies and, particularly Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, referring to hoteliers and the people who look after the tourist to this country, said that they should not use any passing advantage they might have to fleece the tourist.

I had the experience of being served with a tea comprising steak and onions. The steak could be and was consumed in two mouthfuls. The chips that went with the steak could be consumed equally as quick. The charge for that meal was 6/6. I happened to be a casual traveller in this particular spot and I could not help feeling, when I had paid for the meal and took my leave, that if I had been a local they would not have done that. I felt, in other words, that I certainly would not go to that hotel if I were in that particular environment again. No matter what Deputy Collins says I am afraid it is true that there is too much of that attitude among the hoteliers of this country.

That is true.

They are just too anxious to "catch" a fellow when they have him. Ireland has an advantage which is a passing advantage but it need not be so. The year 1952 should provide Ireland with the best opportunity ever of ensuring that hotels are run to benefit the tourist as well as to benefit the people who own the concerns. In other words, if you get a man in once you can get him a second time provided you treat him properly when you get him.

Hear, hear!

Due to the fact that people in England cannot very well travel on the Continent on the allowance of £25 which I believe is all they are to receive in 1952, a great number of English people is expected in this country during the course of the coming tourist season. Some of those people have been here before; many of them will be making their first trip to this country. If any of these people have an experience such as I had in the summer of 1948 I believe that instead of spending their holidays here they will return as soon as they get to the port in which they were supposed to disembark. I arrived at Rosslare Harbour having travelled from Fishguard in the month of August four years ago. I happened to arrive on a Sunday morning. I intended to travel to Dublin and ultimately to County Kildare. I noticed a sign conveying the intelligence that the train to Dublin was due to depart at 8 a.m. That left plenty of time and I calculated that it would reach Dublin at about 12.

Although I had been told at Paddington that the train would leave at 7 o'clock I did not mind so long as the train did go. However, to make assurance doubly sure, knowing what could happen at an Irish port, I decided to ask the porter. He said "That is yesterday's notice. I think it goes at 7 o'clock but you had better ask the station master." I went down to the station master and said "What time does the train leave for Dublin"? He said "There is no train for Dublin at all." I asked him how I could get to Dublin and he replied "Well you cannot get to Dublin unless you go down to Cork." He did not add "To Deputy Collins." He went on "You will get a connection at Mallow." I said I did not want to go to Mallow, that I was never there, and that I did not know if I ever would want to go there. "Well," he said, "that is the only way you can go, and furthermore, when you get to Mallow you have no guarantee that you will get any further.""What time does the train leave Cork?" I asked him. "Seven o'clock to-night," was the answer. I asked him one final question, that is, the price it was proposed to charge me for the privilege of being sent around the country. I forget the actual amount, but I do remember that it was proposed to charge 4/- extra for sending me down to Mallow, keeping me there, and then giving me no guarantee that I would ever get out of it. That sort of thing is enough to drive any tourist daft.

You were getting a circular tour.

You could have got a donkey cart.

There was not one of those either.

The West Clare is evidently still in existence.

I eventually got to Dublin by getting in touch with somebody who had a car and getting a lift. The worst thing was trying to get to Kildare. The furthest the company would bring me was to Rathcoole and that is as far as I got.

Did you not end up in a good county, anyhow?

No doubt. I hope that whatever agency or board is set up and functions under this Bill will strive to prevent that sort of thing happening when the present tourist season gets under way or, for that matter, at any future time.

I asked a question about travel agencies. There was, I remember, a travel agency run by a private person or by a company, I am not sure which, that used to function near Westland Row Station but, as far as I know, that firm is not now in being. I always thought it an excellent idea but at the same time I found it difficult to see where such a firm could make enough to live on. I took it that Section 5, sub-section (d) was designed so that financial or other assistance could be given to travel agencies which would be a handy source of information by telephone or by personal contact for any tourist who wanted to know how he could get to such-and-such a place. Such an agency could give all the information that Deputy Collins quite rightly said the tourist wanted. Our people are inclined to be a little haphazard about these things. That is one of the precious relics of our history. Deputy Collins is right to the extent that if ever the day comes when the Irish people are punctual there will be something radically wrong with them but at the same time people travelling from outside the country do not look on things in the same casual haphazard way as we do. They want things cut and dried. They want to know at exactly what time they will leave such a place and arrive at such another place, whether it is by train, bus or ass-cart they are expected to travel. Curiously enough, they are not very unreasonable provided they know in advance and provided what they are told turns out to be true.

One other matter that has been brought to my attention is a licence for Store Street Station. I do not know whether this question has been raised by anybody else, but it would strike one that if Store Street Station were licensed the burden the country would be asked to carry in order to keep Córas Iompair Éireann in being would be a couple of million pounds less. The first difficulty, however, will be that local publicans will regard the advent of Store Street Station as a gift from the gods and will probably take a very poor view if the Government decide to grab this market and corner it for themselves. The fact is that buses do not arrive and depart merely during licensing hours and no provision is made for people who would be waiting.

Buses are apt to be late betimes particularly if they are arriving from the country, and they may happen to be late at rush times even when they are leaving for the country, and for that reason people may be left hanging about. I do believe that if provision were made for a licence in Store Street £2,000,000, £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 would be made which would be poured into the coffers of Córas Iompair Éireann to reduce the burden on the community when Córas Iompair Éireann presented their bill to Parliament at the end of the year. At the same time I am certain that the local publicans would still do much better by reason of the fact that Store Street Station was there.

I think it was Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll who mentioned that a high season tariff is sometimes charged, when, in fact, there is no high season but merely a sporting fixture of some description. I agree that some steps should be taken to prevent that sort of thing, because eventually there would be no low season charge and any occasion, however small, would be an excuse for hotels to charge the very maximum amount they were entitled to charge under the regulations to be brought into force under this legislation. A sum of £3 13s. 6d. seems far too much for lunch for four people in any hotel, particularly when they do not get enough to eat. It represents 18/6 per head, which is far too much and which is scarcely justified, even on the basis of present-day costs.

Finally, I should like to refer briefly to the Irish-American, the "returned Yank". There is no greater menace coming into this country than the "returned Yank".

The lad who went over to look at the clock.

They come in here and, merely because they have gone outside and have done rather better in America than they expected they would ever do, they damn all Irish institutions. The Irish people are backward, slovenly, miserable and lowdown, and all their institutions, including this venerable Assembly, are all so much "my eye" and mere rubbish. They do nothing, in other words, but pass uncomplimentary remarks from the time they arrive here until they leave, and when they go back to America they do their level best, particularly amongst the Irish over there, to run down this unfortunate motherland of theirs and to describe it only as a refuge for lazy, good-for-nothing fools who had not got the enterprise to get out of it in time. The person who is a genuine tourist and not a "returned Yank" does appreciate the evidences of antiquity here, and the shrines to which reference is made in the Bill, the character of the Irish people, the beauty of the wild country of Connemara, of a certain stretch of my own native county and of Donegal — in fact, the beauty of this country — of Killarney, of Wicklow and the Golden Vale, the beauty of every county in this glorious country of ours. These people do appreciate it, and I believe that it is to them we should look for the future prosperity of the tourist industry and not to the "returned Yank" who does nothing but run the country down and who, incidentally, while he is here, is the meanest form of animal that ever came amongst us.

Deputy Flanagan spoke about his round-about trip because he could not get to Dublin by train. That, at long last, nails the lie about how easy it is for Cork people to get to Dublin. There are some points, with particular reference to the body to be known as Fógra Fáilte, to which I should like to draw attention. This board, it seems, is being set up mainly for publicity purposes and advertising inside and outside the State, and we note that a sum of £250,000 per annum is allocated for this purpose.

When we come to consider the formation of this body, we are entitled to ask: What of the existing Irish Tourist Association and what will be the ultimate position of that whole organisation, an organisation which, whatever its limits may have been, nobody can gainsay, did a lot for this country down the years since it was formed in Cork? It had not at its disposal the funds which Government-sponsored bodies nowadays are in the habit of getting. It did get a certain amount, but its main source of revenue was the contributions by local authorities.

It is easy for Deputies to stand up here, as some have done, and point to the importance of the responsibilities placed on local authorities, but these Deputies might have a different view if they were placed as we who are members of local authorities are placed. We are faced with the worry of increasing rates and when local authorities are asked to give a decent contribution towards this association the one question which will be put to us by the opponents of such grants will be: "What is this money for?" So far as I could see from reading the Minister's speech, he made no statement whatever regarding the ultimate position of this old-established body, except to say that the Irish Tourist Association was in agreement with the formation of this board, Fógra Fáilte.

It was agreement because the association was told that, if it did not take part in it, it could get out.

We are adopting a fancy policy of giving beautiful names to new boards, but very often it is merely a matter of putting the new name over the same door, without adopting any new policy whatever. I believe that the tragedy that may result from the introduction of this Bill may well be the ultimate destruction of a voluntary organisation. Some Deputies have spoken about the importance of private enterprise and coupled with private enterprise must be voluntary enterprise. I can visualise the time when, by the setting up of this third body, the Minister will kill something of vital importance in the country. As one member of a local authority, I say openly that I fail to see how we can expect a levy on the rates to provide funds for a body which will not have the power to use that money, even for publicity purposes. The Minister has not yet gone so far as to announce the appointment of the personnel of this board and I want to ask if this board has already been formed?

I know it has. Some of us know that it has been formed by reason of our association with the Irish Tourist Association, but let nobody who may have no connection with these bodies imagine that the stage is only being prepared, because the stage is set and the actors are ready to come on. The actors have their parts off by heart and are ready. I have no intention of introducing any atmosphere of personalities, but when we know the personnel appointed and especially this body's connection with An Bord Fáilte itself, we must ask ourselves a question. When the Irish Tourist Board was originally formed it largely superseded the Irish Tourist Association and it was financed to a high degree by the State. That board had the giving of money for projects which were considered of vital importance in resorts or for the building of hotels, but, as far as I know, one of the clauses in the giving of any grant was that the board should be satisfied that it would be a paying concern in which the money was invested and that it would not be a loss unless by prior agreement with the Minister. Yet, in the Minister's statement last night here, he has gone so far as to admit that the financial policy of the Irish Tourist Board was such that there is a possibility of this State losing a few hundred thousand pounds — about £311,000, I think — and the danger is that most of that may never be repaid.

Is it not quite clear, therefore, that either the policy of that board was wrong or the personnel carrying out the policy were incapable of doing it correctly? Is there a danger that the Minister may again select men who have been members of that board, which showed clearly that they were not satisfactory in carrying out that undertaking?

In regard to road signs, we must give credit at this stage to the Automobile Association for the work they have done. Though we have not at all sufficient road signs in County Cork, were it not for the Automobile Association I daresay we would have none at all. It is not right we should let this time pass without giving them the fullest thanks which they are due. I hope that with the formation of this new board the matter of road signs will be attended to better.

And bilingually also.

In regard to the money allocated by the old board for the improvement of seaside resorts, some of us failed in the past to understand how the money was allocated to certain seaside areas. In my opinion there is a certain weakness in this Bill which we will not be able to overcome. It provides that local companies may be set up under the Companies Acts and a sum of money may be given to them to start them off. I see an outstanding danger there, that it is only in the seaside resorts where there is a large population that that can operate. The Parliamentary Secretary—I am glad he is here now—knows that in County Cork we have some seaside resorts, but if we asked for the formation of a local company we would not find sufficient business people to carry that out. In these small places we have resorts which, with some improvement not on a very large or elaborate scale, would be a credit to us, and they would help the tourist to realise that we have not just one or two places of importance like the Vale of Avoca or Killarney, or Glengariff, but other places also. I speak naturally of my own village, Crosshaven. We could not start a local company there to work a scheme like this, and we never will be able to do that in these small places. If we leave this Bill as it stands and leave it to this new body — or the old body with a new name—the danger is that Crosshaven in County Cork and other small seaside resorts will be victimised, as the money will be spent only in the larger places where there is a large number of people from whom the local residents can form a committee or a company under the Companies Acts. That would mean continuing an old policy, a policy which meant completely ignoring small places which certainly should get help.

I agree with what has been said here with regard to hotel charges. If a loan is to be given to a hotelier to improve his premises, that is quite good; but surely one of the great weaknesses in the past was that he could charge any price he liked for the accommodation. He submitted his price to the Tourist Board, or the Tourist Association in their time, and they published it in their booklet. That charge could be a prohibitive one but those authorities had no power unless the hotelier went over that prohibitive figure. Then they could intervene. When we speak of tourists, we must realise that we are not going to cater for millionaires or semimillionaires but for the common working people who may find it convenient to travel in this country for a few weeks' holidays. No matter how some Deputies speak of juicy steaks and fried onions, attached to that is ultimately the bill. If we hope to give such help to these hoteliers we should also not be content with saying here in the House that we think they should reduce their charges. We should be determined that they will not be given the power to continue, as they did during the war years, charging anything they liked according to the demand for hotel accommodation at any specified time.

I certainly agree with Deputy Byrne that we should not adopt, as the Minister himself said, a more liberal policy as regards licences for hotels. Deputy Cowan, it seems, was not in favour of Deputy Byrne's view. He said we wanted tourists.

I was not in favour of the reasons which Deputy Byrne gave for his views.

I will give my reasons to the House, without withdrawing in the least. From my experience in travelling through the country, I am of opinion that there is nothing more humiliating and nothing more bitter than to see young women coming out of hotels where there were dances, where they had the satisfaction of going to a dance, but coupled with it they had every facility to drink all they wanted, as long as they wanted — in Christian Ireland. We know that when young girls or young women go to a far-off place — the next county or so many miles from home — and when they go to a dance in an hotel there, while to the ordinary person a dance in an hotel sounds a very big thing and a respectable dance, there is not in that hotel any supervision. There is not in that hotel any provision for a fifth columinst, as it were, who could inform the public about conditions in the hotel. If there were proper inspections in these hotels with their dance halls and licensed bars connected they would know otherwise.

I may say again to the House that on one unfortunate occasion a club with which I was connected held a dance in a certain hotel. So-called travellers came to that dance hall where there was a bar owned and controlled by the hotel management and even though, after hours, the Guards called into that bar and asked if all were travellers — some of those people were on holidays — the fact that they were able to show the ticket they had gained going into the dance hall——

They could not do it after 12.

It was before 12, Deputy, but even so, between 10 and 12 we had the misery of seeing young girls drinking in a bar attached to the hotel. My opinion is that if you are going to cater for tourists — including those from our own country — and if we are prepared to stoop to such a low level it will be a bad day for our country. There are many other points but I think all I can do is to finish and try to drink my glass of water.

My contribution to this debate will be brief, because most of the Deputies have covered some of the points I had in mind. I notice that under this Bill it is intended to liberalise the laws regarding the sale of drink in hotels and holiday camps. I am confining my remarks more or less to holiday camps because we have one here quite near Dublin and, according to the Bill, residents and non-residents can have drink on week days and only residents on Sundays.

From my experience, I would imagine that the non-residents who will frequent that holiday camp which is convenient to Dublin will be motorists. There you will find that in that jolly and happy environment they will possibly consume more drink than if they remained in Dublin and went to an ordinary pub. I must say that as a teetotaller I am not speaking entirely against drink but you will have that position and this Bill is connected with the question of motorists drinking far more than they should. To my mind it would be difficult for the Guards to differentiate between residents and non-residents in a camp.

Does not the same thing apply in hotels?

But in an hotel you will not have 1,000 people.

Why must we run down Ireland? I think it is disgraceful that everybody is running down this country. It is a shame.

I am not running down Ireland. I am as fond of Ireland as anybody else in this House, but my main point in regard to licensing laws is that there is the danger of motorists going to a holiday camp convenient to a city or town and consuming far too much drink. It is a danger I see, and every effort should be made by this board to rectify that position if it arises. I think Deputy Cowan will agree with me — he knows the particular place I am talking about; it comes into his constituency — that there is a danger.

There is always danger. There is danger from the time you get up in the morning until you go to bed at night.

We have had some fatal accidents on seaside roads and we do not want any more — it was mostly due to drink. I hate to offend the lawyers, but I take it a good deal of money is earned on this; but from what I know of them they would rather not earn money in defending drunken motorists.

If you have enough money you can get out of it.

Some of the drunken teetotallers are worse than anybody else.

If you know a Guard you can get out of anything.

That is a very unfair charge to make against the judiciary and the Gardaí of the country.

I want to state that I do not subscribe to the view expressed by Deputy Walsh. As Deputy Cowan has said some people are inclined to run down Ireland. Listening to some of the Deputies speaking of our hotels I am of the opinion that if any tourists read some of their speeches they would be afraid to touch Ireland at all. From my experience in many countries I would say that most of our hotels in Ireland compare very favourably with the hotels in other countries. In recent years owners have made big improvements in their hotels, reconstructing them and in every way trying to improve them.

Generally without grants or loans.

I believe that they compare favourably both in service and accommodation with hotels in other countries. I am not an experienced fisherman but I have been told by people who are that our rivers and lakes have been sadly neglected. I think this board could spend some of the money they get under this Bill in stocking the lakes and rivers. I am sure that most of the tourists who come with the intention of fishing will be people with money. Therefore, if you are going to develop our rivers and lakes and stock them better, you will draw people who are willing to spend money and spend it freely.

It would appear from Deputy Collins's remarks regarding publicity that he did not agree with it at all. He said there was no need to publicise what we have to give and, to use his own words, "We have an awful lot to give". To take an example: if a shopkeeper has good articles to sell, he puts them in his shop window. It is reasonable to assume that he must advertise them. Surely Deputy Collins does not suggest that countries like Italy, France, Belgium, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, did not need to advertise in order to let us know the attractions they have. In our own country, no matter where you go, you will find a great deal of publicity on behalf of these countries inviting tourists. There is need for publicity. We have the goods and I do not see any reason why we should not publicise them. Deputy Collins may not agree with this publicity board, but I do not think he should hold that we should altogether hide what we have to sell.

There were also some remarks made about signposts. I would like to join with Deputy Desmond and express my appreciation of the signs erected by the Automobile Association. There is one thing that members of this House who are also members of local bodies should bear in mind. They should try to inspire a better civic spirit regarding this question of signposts because most of them are damaged and torn down by irresponsible people. The Automobile Association have done a good job, and members of local bodies should try to inspire a better spirit in that connection.

I have very little more to say except on a point mentioned to me by a provincial Deputy. He pointed out to me that the holding of fairs in public streets in provincial towns was undesirable from the point of view of tourists.

What about Puck Fair?

Fairs attract tourists. Puck Fair attracts more tourists than anything else.

As the Deputy who mentioned the point about the fairs to me is not in the House now he may not have an opportunity of saying himself that he thought there should be fair-greens in towns. I am only just giving his view as he gave it to me and there may be something in it.

It has been advocated for over 100 years.

There is no harm in mentioning it again. I would again emphasise this question of the consumption of too much drink by visitors to holiday camps who afterwards motor along the roads leading to Dublin. I am sure it will be found if this measure goes through more accidents will take place, especially on the roads leading to Dublin.

I would like to welcome this Bill and to say that I remember a time when it was anathema to this House to recommend the development of tourism and the invitation of tourists to this country. A big change in outlook has taken place during the past five or six years. When I was a member of this House during the years 1945, 1946 and 1947, quite a number of Deputies who have contributed to this debate and who have welcomed this Bill were very much opposed to the very idea of tourist development and to the idea of tourists coming into this country. During that time it was regarded as criminal that tourists should come here, be welcomed by us or provided with any facilities whatsoever, even though it was the reasonable and proper thing to give during the war to outsiders all possible facilities. The fact that we did give such facilities during the emergency has contributed more than anything else towards developing tourism to the point which it has reached to-day and towards putting it on the road to the future achievement which, I hope, will be its lot. I am a staunch believer in the development of the tourist industry because of the employment it gives. If it did not give employment I would not be in favour of it. It gives employment of a very remunerative kind and, as the Tánaiste has said, it is one of our principal industries at the present time.

There has been a lot of talk for the last couple of days as to how best we could accommodate and facilitate visitors to this country. We must, first of all, realise that most of the people who come from abroad are ordinary working-class folk—British or Irish-Americans. The millionaire and the wealthy class are few and far between in comparison with the number of ordinary people who visit us. I have listened to suggestions that we should re-stock our rivers and our lakes and that a considerable sum of money should be spent in that direction. I do not feel that that would be a wise course to adopt by reason of the fact that the people who come here to fish are very few in comparison with the thousands who come to see their friends and their relations or, as Deputy Collins has said, for a feed which they cannot get in their own countries due to conditions arising out of the war.

Then how are we to spend the money that is going to be made available? In my view, there are a few amenities which are very desirable. I have travelled quite a lot of this country during the last eight or nine years, and I have been in fairly large towns. A short time ago I happened to miss a train in a certain midland town which has a population somewhere in the range of 12,000. It was the first time that I had the privilege of remaining a Saturday night and a Sunday night in that particular town. I walked about the place on Sunday and I noticed that there was no ladies' public convenience in the streets. There was a gentleman's public convenience all right but it would be much healthier for the town if it were not there at all, it was in such a deplorable condition. Any visitor going into this place would be shocked beyond words. When I mentioned the fact to Deputy O'Hara he was amazed that a town having a population of 12,000 should be so badly equipped in this direction. Later, when we were travelling through the town, I got him to stop the car and have a look at the public convenience it was so disgraceful. If money were spent providing facilities of this kind it would be very desirable. What would a foreigner think of such a town—a town with a couple of industries, two or three cinemas and three or four churches? What would a bus-load of tourists think of such a place if they found no public convenience there? They would have to go into an hotel or into a public house. Even in public houses such facilities leave much to be desired.

Was the Deputy ever in Spain?

I am not interested in Spain. Perhaps the Deputy was out there fighting during the civil war.

If the Deputy saw other countries he would not be so critical of our own.

I have been in some other countries and I have seen the things to which the Deputy refers. There are towns in the West of Ireland having no public conveniences whatsoever. A person could be taken into court for a breach of the law; yet there are no facilities provided for him. Every town, large and small, throughout the length and breadth of Ireland, should be provided with public conveniences which should be maintained in a proper condition. Any vandalism carried out there should be punishable by jail and not by fine. It is the only remedy for youths who come down to the level of writing ugly slogans on the walls or misconducting themselves in any other way in these places.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to our railways. I remember, four or five years ago, bringing it to the notice of the present Minister for Industry and Commerce when he was advocating the development of tourism that our railways could do with a box of paint, or even a bar of soap and a scrubbing brush, so as to make them look a bit clean. They are filthy both inside and outside. That is the only description I can apply to them. It is all very well to say that we are running down Ireland. If we are genuine in our efforts to remedy things we must speak our minds on the subject and the conditions of our railways are not at all encouraging, and are certainly not up to the standard which a country hoping to develop tourism and attract visitors here should accept. We are subsidising Córas Iompair Éireann for a sum running into millions of pounds, and yet the conditions in our railways are absolutely primitive. I do not think that the railway stations at Westland Row, Amiens Street or Kingsbridge have been painted or cleaned since the first time I came to Dublin, and that was in 1932.

There is plenty of green paint on them.

Take the station at Mullingar. A poster has been hanging there advertising Guinness, or something like that, for about 20 years, to my knowledge, and there has not been a bit of paint put on the station for as long as I can remember.

The footpaths are filthy. The place generally is dirty. It has never been washed or cleaned. There are no facilities whatever. If you go into these places for a cup of tea, they rob you. They did that during the war years and they are doing it to-day. We require better railway facilities, cleaner and better toilet facilities, more up-to-date railway carriages. Carriages that were in existence 30 years ago should not be used on the railways to-day. If a person goes by train to Westport he will not return by train. The upholstery is as hard as timber and it is filthy. At the end of the journey one's suit is covered with smuts and dirt. A lady who gets into that carriage with a clean costume or coat would be quite entitled to claim compensation for damage to her clothes owing to the dirty nature of the carriage.

We are subsidising a redundant, obsolete company that has no interest in providing the necessary facilities. It is a disgrace. We talk then about bringing people to this country from America, England and elsewhere. I assume that the Tánaiste has travelled on railways in England. The ordinary underground railway there is 100 years in advance of our best railway here. The facilities provided in England for the ordinary working class going to and from work are much better than are provided here at Westland Row for travellers to Westport, Galway, Ballina or Ballaghaderreen.

We must face facts. The funds and energy at the disposal of the Tourist Board should be directed to providing a remedy for the defects I have enumerated.

I would suggest that the condition of roads in beauty spots should be improved, for instance, in places such as Enniscrone, Louisburgh, Galway, Seapoint, Strandhill, Sligo. All along the western seaboard there are many beauty spots where people would be prepared to spend a holiday.

The Deputy will not say that the roads in Connemara are excellent.

The transport facilities and the railway facilities are not suitable, and people find it very difficult and very expensive to move about from place to place. Visitors to the country may not wish to stay in one place for perhaps an entire week. They like to go from place to place, to see the country. Facilities for doing that are not available. I missed the train and I had to wait in a particular town over Saturday, Sunday, until 2 o'clock on Monday before I could get home. There was no bus or train and the only alternative was to hire a car. If an Englishman were stranded for half a week in a particular town, it is doubtful that he would ever return to this country.

As far as the hotels go, taking them on the whole, they are reasonably good. A marked improvement has taken place over the past seven or eight years. I admit that there are perhaps a few unscrupulous hoteliers who have taken unfair advantage of tourists. I blame the tourists themselves for being so foolish as to allow that to happen. The Tourist Board have offices in O'Connell Street where visitors could get a list of appropriate charges, and it is up to tourists to complain to the board if they are overcharged by a few unscrupulous hoteliers.

Another matter is the question of accommodation. In some hotels one finds that there are there or four beds in a room. Overcrowding should not be permitted.

There is another matter that I want to bring to the Minister's attention. When one comes out of Westland Row station one is surrounded by a crowd of semi-beggars. They almost take the case out of your hand against your will, and if you were innocent enough to give any of them your case you might never see it again. You will find children there of from seven to 12 years of age, selling papers and almost forcing you to buy them. That indicates lack of parental control and points to the necessity for some municipal regulations regarding the matter. What kind of impression is created in the minds of visitors when they see small children, who should be in bed at 7 or 8 o'clock, allowed to sell papers up to a late hour of the night? There is no supervision or control over them. At Euston, Paddington or Waterloo such sights are not to be seen. That is what happens in Dublin. Captain Cowan sees it.

I see it in a different way.

There are children of from seven to ten years of age on the streets up to midnight selling papers. Last night I was drinking a bottle of stout in a public-house in the city. A boy of about nine to ten years of age came in with a bundle of papers under his arm. The porter ushered him out. I have never heard at any street corner in London or elsewhere the language that that young boy used. It was deplorable. That sort of thing would leave a very bad impression on the minds of visitors. We are anxious to create a good impression. The energy, money and labour that we spend in trying to do that will be destroyed if we allow youths to roam the streets, out of control.

That is hardly relevant on a Bill that makes provision for the development of the tourist traffic.

With all due respect to you, it is relevant in this way, that we are trying to suggest to the Minister ways and means of developing the tourist industry, of bringing people to this country, and impressing them when they do come. I do not think that sort of behaviour would impress them.

The functions of the board would not include these activities.

I will get away from that in order to agree with you. Let us not mislead ourselves. If there is no war and industry gets back into normal production and world sanity is restored, we will not have the same number of people coming here as have been coming over the past seven or eight years.

The very wealthy who come here at the moment do so because, for certain reasons, they cannot go elsewhere. I think the Tánaiste knows that well. The people on whom we must rely are the Irish people who have gone to America over the past 40 years, their sons and daughters, and those who have gone to England in the past ten or 15 years and have settled there, and their sons and daughters. These are the people on whom we must rely in the main for our tourist industry.

If we are to provide facilities for tourists it must be for that type of person mostly. Millionaires and wealthy people come here very rarely and would not come here if circumstances permitted of their going elsewhere. These people did not come here before the war, and would not have come here during and after the war were it not for conditions existing on the Continent.

For that reason the erection of expensive hotels, the stocking of rivers and lakes with an abundance of trout and the spending of thousands of pounds in similar directions would not be a paying proposition on a long-term policy. It might be a paying proposition on a temporary basis, but as a long-term policy I do not think it would pay. The type of person who can be depended upon to come here more or less regularly is the man or woman who has been earning a steady income in some industry and who has been putting aside a little every week, hoping for the day when he or she can come home to see the old country, the country where she or he or their parents were born. For these people we ought to provide essential facilities. I do not agree with Deputy Seán Flanagan, although on the whole he made a very reasonable contribution, in his references to returned Irish-Americans. The people who come here from America "grousing" are few and far between. Most of the people who come here from America are people who have been away for about 30 or 40 years. I met a man here last year at the All-Ireland football final and he had been away 40 years without coming home.

He told me that he was born in Kiltimagh and, although he was over 21 when he left this country, he said that had he not the evidence of his own eyes, he could not have believed that the country could change so much for the better in the interval. He spoke in high terms of the many improvements that had been carried out in rural Ireland. I met him accidentally here in Dublin and brought him to the football match. I also brought him into this House and he was amazed. I mention these facts to show that men who come from America to visit this country usually do not speak slightingly of our institutions. That man told me that he would not have believed that conditions were so good in this country had he not actually seen them himself.

The big majority of Americans visiting this country take back with them a very good impression of things here. Perhaps if one went outside New York and some of the larger cities in America, one could also find plenty of things to complain of there. In the rural parts of many States, conditions are quite primitive. They cannot boast the same modern conditions as one finds in New York, Washington, Chicago and the larger cities. Taking everything into consideration, we have no reason to hold down our heads in shame. If we desire to make a favourable impression on people who come from abroad we should concentrate on providing essential facilities such as efficient rail services, in which the carriages are provided with up-to-date toilets maintained in a proper state of cleanliness. We should see that there are proper train and bus services and that there is always a sufficiency of clean towels in the toilets. Anybody accustomed to travel by train knows that after you have travelled 50 miles you can almost convince yourself that you did not wash at all that day.

It sometimes happens that you have to keep an important appointment at the end of a long train journey and it is essential that proper washing facilities should be provided in the train. It is the provision of the facilities such as these that will add to our prestige and will bring back the boys and girls a second or third time to spend their holidays in this country.

I suggest that these facilities are much more essential than extending the licensing laws or granting an hotel licence to an hotel with 20 bedrooms. I agree with the Deputy who said that the fewer the number of hotels of that size licensed, the better for ourselves and our good name. If people coming from abroad are of the type who desire the pleasures which can only be provided by hotels of that kind, I do not think we should lose anything by letting them remain away. We have a certain moral standard here which we wish to maintain. We are proud of that moral standard and of our way of life. We are not going to change them to facilitate people who have a totally different moral outlook and a totally different way of life. If these people think we should do it, they are greatly mistaken. The Tánaiste, and I am sure every decent member of the Dáil, would prefer to allow them to remain where they are or that they should go to the countries where they can find these pleasures. Certainly the money of the Irish taxpayer should not be utilised for the purpose of providing undesirable facilities for these people. We shall provide them with decent hotels and decent essentials, where anyone can spend a good and healthy holiday. People who desire pleasures other than these can go to Monte Carlo, Italy, Spain, Brighton or Blackpool or wherever they think they are likely to get these facilities. I do not think the Irish Government or the Irish people are going to come down to their level to provide them with facilities which, in our view, are not of a decent type.

It has been a painful experience to sit here for the past two hours and listen to the criticisms that have been passed on every phase and aspect of our national life. It all started when Deputy Byrne gave the cue, for his own particular reasons, by talking about drinking facilities and, unfortunately, he was followed by a number of younger Deputies who did not understand the reason for that particular contribution to the debate. Every aspect of our national life has been criticised and we have been held up to ridicule by certain Deputies. If there were competition at the moment for the tourist trade, and if the people competing with this country were to collect what has been said about Ireland and the Irish people and Irish boys and girls this evening in this House, and to publish it, it would be the greatest possible offensive against our tourist industry. We have a Bill here which proposes to set up an organisation to publicise the advantages of coming to Ireland for a holiday. We are going to spend the taxpayers' money on that work — a laudable job. Yet Deputies from all Parties and all sides of our own Parliament have set out to disgrace the name of this country.

Including your own Party.

The references by Deputy Desmond to Irish girls are references which should not have been made. Generally, we hear this criticism of this drink by cranks.

Hear, hear!

They criticise our intemperate habits and the fact that some of our girls drink a harmless and innocuous cocktail now and again.

Very harmless, I am sure.

Yes, it is harmless— perfectly harmless. Many girls who are now the mothers of growing families have taken these cocktails and they have not done them any harm— and the girls who are now drinking them will grow up and become the mothers of another generation of young people in this country. I think it is a scandalous thing for men of what I might call a warped type to want to prohibit women from the ordinary enjoyment which they themselves would like to have. Deputy Cafferky's contribution, following on that of Deputy Flanagan, does not say much for what I might term the "Mayo mentality". I hope that other Mayo Deputies who may speak later in this debate will not pursue the line pursued by Deputy Cafferky and Deputy S. Flanagan.

When I came in here this evening I hoped to hear a reasoned and constructive discussion on this Bill, and I hoped to make a few observations in that way myself. However, it is difficult to get out of this rut in which we have been for two and a half hours.

Forget about it.

There was some discussion yesterday on whether we should have one organisation or two organisations or three organisations in connection with the tourist industry. When this Bill becomes law we shall have three organisations. I do not know the Minister's intention in regard to the Irish Tourist Association, but I consider that their existence will become more and more difficult once Fógra Fáilte has actually been in operation for a while. I think the House should consider whether it is desired that an organisation such as the Irish Tourist Association—a voluntary organisation, maintained by the voluntary contributions of local authorities—which has rendered excellent national service, should be maintained, or whether, on the new basis envisaged by this Bill, it will be able to render any particular service to the nation. I should have liked to hear that matter discussed from that point of view and also a suggestion which has been made by members of the Irish Tourist Association that, in the appointment of Fógra Fáilte, three members of the board should be chosen from the association—which, I think, is happening at the moment.

I have a personal commitment with them to work on that basis.

The difficulty is that, without question, that is a personal commitment that could not possibly bind any future Minister for Industry and Commerce. The members of the Irish Tourist Association fear that, unless there is statutory provision for the arrangement to which the Minister is personally committed, it may happen at some time in the future that a successor of the Minister's may not feel obliged to honour the arrangement entered into by the present Minister with them. However, that is a matter that can come up for discussion on the Committee Stage. I feel it would have been better if the debate had been conducted on the lines of these important aspects rather than on the lines of the muck and drivel which we have had to listen to for over two hours this evening.

I agree with the establishment of this new board and I think it is wise that it should be set up. Tourism is really in the experimental stage at the moment. We know that it is a very valuable industry. I think that everybody has been brought around to that viewpoint. There is no opponent of tourism now in the country. As has been stated, it is second only to agriculture. That being so, I do not see anything wrong in having two boards at this particular stage of our development. Each board has a specific job of work to do. One deals with what might be termed internal organisation —the grading of hotels and work of that kind—and the other will deal entirely with the publicity end of the work. Whatever may happen in the future, as we gain more experience, I think it is desirable that these two boards should be separate and distinct, with the co-ordinating machinery that is in them under the Act for the time being.

I understand from the Bill that the grading of hotels will recommence. I think that that action is desirable. I think our hotels should not alone be graded, but that their grading should be made more apparent even to the casual visitor. If an hotel is a first-class hotel, it should have its distinguishing first-class mark more readily and easily apparent: similarly, with second-class hotels, third-class hotels, fourth-class hotels, fifth-class hotels— and as far down the list as the board considers it should go. I feel that it is wise to aim at raising the standard of hotels and hotel accommodation all over the country. Undoubtedly, if we have a proper system of grading, any ambitious and sensible hotel proprietor will do everything possible in his desire to bring his hotel to the standard of the highest grade. That is something that ought to be encouraged in every way possible.

There are matters which have been touched upon in regard to service in hotels, and these, again, are matters that, with a common-sense approach on behalf of the board, can be substantially improved. I have heard complaints of discourtesy from time to time, and I have come to the conclusion time after time that the allegations of discourtesy were completely unfounded. Everybody is not built the same way; everybody does not go around gushing in an artificial sort of way. Some people are cool and are the severe type and, while they may be perfectly correct to visitors, it is felt that they are discourteous and cold.

Nothing very much can be done about that. Gradually, however, any difficulties there are in that direction will I feel be removed if the board will endeavour to help the hotel proprietors rather than be a hindrance or a nuisance to them. The board can very easily become a nuisance if officers are not competent. It is desirable, therefore, that the officers employed as inspectors should be competent and I feel that, included amongst these inspectors, should be competent or capable chefs who understand cooking, kitchen arrangements, and things like that, because these play a very important part in the running of an hotel.

If we realise, as I think we do, the value of this industry, and if we realise also that we are, as I say, in what may be termed an experimental stage, each and every one of us would be prepared to give the greatest amount of freedom to the board to carry out its duties, with this overriding consideration, that the board must not expect to progress too fast. There must be consideration for difficulties that are in the way of hotel proprietors and their staffs. A few years pass very rapidly and the standard that cannot be achieved this year may very readily and easily be achieved next year or the year afterwards. The board ought to work on that basis.

Considerable discussion has arisen around the licensing provisions of the Bill. This provision, whereby a person can look for his licence in advance of spending the money, is an excellent arrangement and every sensible person will approve of it. It is right, if a hotel measures up to a certain standard, that that hotel should be entitled to get a licence and that no cranks can go in and hold up the grant of a licence which the law clearly intends should be granted. Very fortunately we have not in this country what is known as local option. It would be a marvellous thing for some of our publicity seekers on the temperance line if we had local option, but fortunately we have not. The provisions of this Bill will remove a lot of the activities of the crank from the courts in regard to licences.

Section 37 gives me some concern. The section states:—

"Premises situate in a county borough cannot be regarded for the purposes of this Part as an hotel unless they contain at least 20 apartments set apart and used exclusively for the sleeping accommodation of travellers."

I take it the Minister has satisfied himself that that provision does not interfere with hotels in county boroughs at the moment which have a licence and have only 12 rooms.

I want to be sure the Minister has satisfied himself of that.

You can go on either leg, either under this Bill or under the Licensing Acts.

That was my own view. It was the wording that I was questioning, although it is limited to this Part of the Bill, "premises situate in a county borough shall not be regarded", then there is a saving clause, "for the purposes of this Part as an hotel...."

There is no section repealing the older Acts?

Not that I have been able to see. It is a section which might be altered slightly for no other purpose than making assurance doubly sure, because I know hotel proprietors in Dublin—I am sure it applies to other county boroughs as well—who have the minimum number of bedrooms, namely, 12, and have obtained a licence after considerable difficulty. They might feel some danger from the provisions of this section. I would just like that matter to be considered so that we may make assurance doubly sure.

I see another possible source of injustice in the Bill. A person who is the owner of an hotel registered by the board may offend against the Act by overcharging and his registration can be withdrawn. That is a serious punishment, and I think the board should have the power, instead of suspending his registration right away, to put him on some form of probation or put him under some condition. However, that is an aspect that we can consider on the Committee Stage. I only just mention it now. There is the other case where an inspector goes around and comes to the conclusion that an hotel has fallen below the standard and should not be registered. The board may send out a second inspector to make an inspection and, on his report, they may remove that hotel from the registration list. If that situation arises, I think it should not be a second inspector but three members of the board who should go and see the hotel. I believe further that the definite objections to the registration, whatever they are, should be indicated fully to the hotel proprietor who should have an opportunity of putting them right.

I would be very strongly tempted, for the better protection of that hotel proprietor who may have had his hotel for years, who may have been carrying on an excellent business and may have spent a lot of money on it, and then finds that his business, goodwill and everything else is wiped out by direction of the board, almost to make the suggestion that he would be entitled to go into the Circuit Court or the High Court on an appeal against the decision of the board. After all, the livelihood and the property of the individual is at stake but, perhaps, without going that far, we can provide by suitable amendments machinery whereby, within the authority of the board, justice can be done to that particular individual.

I welcome the Bill as an earnest effort to improve our tourist industry. I sincerely hope that it will be passed soon because I see in it provisions that will be of tremendous help to the committee which is being set up in Dublin for the purpose of organising a festival here next year. I see in this Bill provisions which will be of great help, because this new authority can provide guide-books, a thing which is very badly needed in Dublin. When visitors come to Dublin we would hope that there would be, and should be, available excellent guide-books which would enable them to enjoy their trip, and not only to enjoy their trip here but to widen their knowledge. I think that the board, in addition to having authority to engage in publicity of a general kind, should have authority specially to publicise a function, whatever it was. In fact, I think it has. The sub-section dealing with that may be extended, but I think it should have that power on the occasion, say, of the Tailtean Games or of a festival or some function of a national character organised in some area in the country likely to attract visitors. I am very pleased that these provisions are in the Bill. I hope that we have got rid of the moaning now, and that we will get down to make such improvements in this Bill as we think it needs for the purpose of making a success of such an excellent and valuable industry as the tourist industry is.

Let me say at the outset that I thoroughly disgree with this Bill. I think the Bill is not necessary. We are all agreed with the principle behind the Bill; in other words, to do something to attract more tourists to this country. But we must make up our minds also as to what the attractions are which we have to offer to the tourist. We are not going to cater for the gourmet. Neither will our climate permit us to cater for the Palm Beach tourist or the person who wants to sunbathe or surface bathe, facilities such as the Mediterranean can provide. The one thing we should remember is that we have some things in our shop window to sell to the tourist. The first is our scenery and, thank God, no board can interfere with that. The second is our sporting, fishing and shooting rights. The board, or our Departments, can improve these.

We are going to spend £250,000 per year on improving our tourist industry. Let us start with improving what we have got to offer to the tourist. If we can provide proper roads to the scenic views which we have, and which God has provided for us, if we can re-stock our rivers and bring them back to the position in which they were, say, 30 years ago, and if we can re-stock our shoots, then we will have natural attractions to offer to our tourists. Somebody has scoffed at the idea that our rivers should be re-stocked. Let me give the House one example. In a small town in Donegal the lakes and rivers in the vicinity had become so denuded of sea trout and salmon that we had not a single angling visitor to the town, but some 15 years ago we set up a local anglers' association. We provided money whereby we were enabled to re-stock our rivers with brown trout, sea trout and salmon, and, in fact, we encouraged people who were former poachers to become anglers, with the result that last season the two hotels in that town were booked out from the month of May to the month of October. That was all due to the enterprise of the local anglers' association.

Now, if the Government, which is providing £250,000 to encourage the influx of visitors to the country, would provide anglers' associations with capital whereby they could re-stock our rivers, or if it could persuade the Department of Agriculture to provide the fry for the re-stocking of our rivers, it would be doing much more for tourism than by helping to improve a local hotel. Do not forget that every angler who arrives in the country requires either a boatman or a gillie. Each angler has to employ an individual, whereas the ordinary tourist who comes merely to avail of our dancing or swimming facilities, or to admire our scenic views, leaves behind him just what he pays to the hotel proprietor. The angler is a much more important type of visitor.

Again, if we have our shoots on mountain property preserved, if the tenant purchasers, the preservers of their own mountains, are encouraged to preserve them, not only would we bring men to the country to shoot, but we will also make them pay for the game, pay for their carriers, and pay the farmer whose game they have had the privilege of shooting. We can do much also by providing moneys out of this £250,000 to encourage the killing of pests and the re-stocking of our shoots. I think that, by doing these two things, we would be doing much more for tourism than by providing a free grant or a loan to some individual in a town to improve his own premises.

There should be some liaison between the Department of Lands and the Department of Industry and Commerce. May I give another example? In the town of Glenties, some 18 months ago, a local anglers' association was formed. That anglers' association made a bid to the Department of Lands for the fishing rights of the Owenee River and actually paid £400 to that Department for the privilege of angling on that river. Remember now, it was only angling. They preserved the river with the assistance of the local board of conservators, with the result that there was an influx of angling visitors to the town of Glenties. This year a similar tender was submitted to the Department of Lands away back in the month of November for the same river at the same price. No later than the other day I was informed by that Department that they have not yet decided as to whether or not the local angling association will get the river. The result is that the association cannot advertise the river to prospective angling tourists. If that association was in touch with the Department of Industry and Commerce and, through that Department, expedited the granting, or otherwise, of the lease, a considerable amount would be done for the benefit of angling tourism.

Deputy Brennan and I had the privilege the other night of being present at the inauguration of a local development association in the town of Ardara. We are aware of what they are doing there to attract tourists. We are equally aware that if the Minister would make a grant to that local association to purchase the lower reaches of the river owned by the Department of Lands plus a grant for the killing of pests by way of gratuity for each pest killed the local development association could do much better work than all the advertisements promulgated by the Tourist Board.

These are matters the Minister should consider. It would be a good day's work if the local development association were provided with funds for improving the amenities available to sporting tourists. The sporting tourist is the man who spends the most money. He spends more than the ordinary holiday maker who merely wants hotel accommodation and his meals.

We have some of the finest golf courses in the British Isles. Is there a proper approach road to one of them, particularly to those along the sea coast? One travels along a fairly good county road, and then one suddenly branches off to the golf course travelling over potholes, ruts and stones. It is sometimes more difficult to get to the clubhouse than it is to get out of some of the bunkers on the course. If grants were made available to the golf clubs to improve these approach roads golfing would be much more attractive for our tourists. We are prepared to put up with it but the tourist who can drive to St. Andrews or the Royal and Ancient will not be prepared to travel over potholes for his game of golf. The golfing tourist brings in a good deal of money because he must employ a caddie and pay green fees and he contributes in that way towards the general good of the district.

A good deal has been said about transport and I do not propose to deal with it. There is room for improvement. With regard to our roads generally, a serious effort has been made over the years to improve our trunk and main county roads. Unfortunately, it is not from our trunk roads and main county roads that the best scenic views are obtainable. I think grants should be made available for the improvement of the approaches to our famous beauty spots. These grants could be provided in the same way as those under the rural improvements scheme; in other words, there should be a local contribution and a grant from the board. In that way scenic views which are not available to tourists at the moment would be made available to them.

A serious effort should be made to encourage local development associations. On the question of the grading of hotels, we all know that most of our hotels are in private ownership. An attempt was made by the Irish Tourist Board to establish what might be described as nationalised hotels. I think everybody agrees that was not a success. An hotel proprietor is neither a fool nor a philanthropist. He runs his hotel in order to make money. Why then should the State subsidise him for the purpose of improving his own business? I do not think the State should subsidise him even by way of loan. Why, too, should he be subjected to visits from inspectors to examine his toilets and everything else? We had quite enough outcry about compulsory tillage and inspectors visiting our farms. What right has any inspector to go into an hotel and tell the proprietor to put another wash basin here and another mirror there.

Some of them would want some supervision.

They are the property of private individuals. Competition between hotels will ensure their improvement because if one hotel is getting all the business the other hotels in the locality will take steps to bring their establishments up to the proper standard.

But the visitor who is unfortunate enough to go into one of these hotels before it is improved will go back home and say that all Irish hotels are rotten.

Remember it was not the Irish Tourist Board which started the grading of hotels. It was the Automobile Association, and more credit should be given to that body for the good work it has done. They did not send round inspectors to grade the hotels. Quietly and unobtrusively a single individual inspected an hotel and in the guide-book he marked it according to the grading he thought it deserved. One had only to refer to the guide-book to find out what to expect. If an hotel is not up to standard, then it should not get a particular marking. The Automobile Association has been doing that work successfully for years.

But only for the select people.

The Automobile Association caters for the Deputy and everybody else in the matter of fixing signposts all over the country. They are not catering for the select few. They are catering for everybody. I think legislation should be introduced making it compulsory for all motorists to join one or other association, and I think these associations should do the classification of our hotels thereby obviating the necessity of our setting up a special board and paying a host of inspectors to examine these establishments. If my suggestion were adopted we would save a considerable amount of money and save hotel proprietors the embarrassment of inspectors coming in and telling them what they should do.

Unlike some of the previous speakers, I have no personal experience to relate in regard to missing a train or any unfortunate experience which is bound to come the way of an individual in his lifetime, more than once probably. I do say that, whenever I could afford or had the time to have a few days' holidays, I found there were so many places of exquisite beauty in this country that it was difficult for me to select where I might spend my few pounds. Unfortunately, I think that these places are not widely known to those outside the country. Therein lies one of the tasks which any organisation must face as a first problem to be solved towards improving the tourist trade in this country, to bring in more tourists and, when they come in, to please them. Those are the main functions of any board set up to look after the tourist traffic in this country.

Some Deputies seem to think that our tourist trade could look after itself. That was not the opinion of those who carried out investigations under the E.C.A. mission. In the Christenberry Report we are told that the Government must get into the swim to do something for the tourist traffic in this country. As the Tánaiste pointed out in introducing the Bill, we should not be merely content with wetting the feet—we must get into the swim.

I think this Bill is based mainly on the report contained in this abridged account of the investigations carried out by the E.C.A. mission. An Fógra Fáilte is not going into competition with private enterprise. I cannot, for the life of me, see how any Deputy arrived at that interpretation. I think that, on the other hand, it is encouraging private enterprise to do more for tourism than they have been doing in the past. It is a very poor view that some Deputies have taken when they said that, owing to financial adjustments abroad, we are bound to get an influx of tourists to this country during the next couple of years. In other words, that they will come now, irrespective of whether we cater for them or not. I think it is our duty to equip ourselves for world competition in the tourist trade which will present itself to us. We have an opportunity to do that now, and if we do not take advantage of it, we are throwing away the potentialities of a great and valuable industry which, as everybody agrees, is second only to agriculture in this country.

I think then that if the Bill only succeeds in stimulating interest in our tourist trade, makes our people tourist conscious throughout the country and succeeds in arousing the same interest outside this House as it has aroused in the House during the last few days, even in that way alone, it will have done something towards improving the tourist trade in this country. Heretofore, too often the tourist trade was regarded as the child of the hotelier or the caterer. Other people seemed to think it was not their affair and that they should have no interest in it. It is only in recent years that they have come to realise what a valuable industry it is and that it concerns every individual in every walk of life. For that reason I think it is most important that every individual and every section should be made to realise that they have a responsibility in the matter of catering for tourists whether it be by courtesy or by providing for them accommodation which will help to make them comfortable and entice them to come back here again.

I do not agree with my colleague from Donegal, Deputy O'Donnell, who said that grading hotels is unnecessary, that we should not have supervision. One has only to look back over the past few years to see the strides forward we have made in the way of better hotels to realise what a success the grading system has been and to see that we have people striving with one another to live up to the regulations, to improve their premises to get a higher place in the list of gradings and to make certain that they will not be reported and that no instance will will occur which will be likely to bring them down in the estimation of those responsible for grading the hotels. I think that state of affairs should be allowed to continue. It is only natural that we should ensure that those in whose hands the industry is mainly placed, hoteliers and caterers, should live up to a certain standard and continuously strive to improve that standard.

I do agree with Deputy O'Donnell, however, that local organisations should get as much encouragement as possible. I feel they will, under the statutory body, An Fógra Fáilte, to be organised under this Bill. They do great work in their own district and for the nation as a whole. They bring to bear on their own immediate neighbourhood a certain organisation which no centralised body could do so well as they could do it, knowing the locality, the circumstances, the amenities and facilities which require improvement and attention. It is a good token that throughout the country the number of such voluntary organisations has been increasing over the past few years even under the existing Irish Tourist Association and Irish Tourist Board. I feel that under An Fógra Fáilte they will continue to increase, that more such voluntary organisations will be organised, and that they will get every possible co-operation from this board to enable them to carry out the valuable work they are doing.

The previous Deputy referred a lot to Donegal. I should not like to appear to be parochial-minded in this matter but I should like to refer to that section of the Christenberry Report which relates to Donegal. He gives us a particular fillip with regard to tourism when he refers to the breath-taking scenery of Donegal. In fact, I think I am safe in saying that he places our county in a place of primary importance in so far as scenic beauty and natural facilities are concerned, but then he somewhat takes from that high note when he refers to the lack of what the report calls "utilities"— water schemes and electricity.

I should like to impress upon the Minister that any organisation set up for the improvement of the tourist industry should have authority to cooperate with other Departments or State organisations in order to effect the necessary improvements if we are to increase the tourist traffic throughout the country.

What can a tourist organisation do for a place like Donegal if the local authority will not provide the necessary moneys for the extension of water and sewerage schemes and the construction of new schemes? What can a centralised board do if the Electricity Supply Board does not extend the network to the many areas along that beautiful seaboard which have not as yet the great amenity of electricity without which very little progress can be made towards modernising accommodation for tourists? I am sure that the Minister will agree—and he had the pleasure of what was I hope a very happy holiday in Donegal last year——

It was too short.

——that we have one of the nicest counties in Ireland, if not the nicest, if we had amenities and facilities such as they have in better developed counties for the extension of the tourist trade.

I would impress upon the Minister that in relation to the paragraph on page 6 of the Christenberry Report he take every possible step to ensure that the great potential for tourists as yet undeveloped in Donegal be given every facility to expand in the shortest possible time. It is an industry that will give immediate returns for any work put into it and I think it is the best kind of capital development on which we could embark at the present moment.

In conclusion, I can only say that the Bill is a very necessary and good one, which is mainly designed to give every encouragement to private enterprise to do something which people should really do for themselves but which people who own property of that type are not always in a financial position to do at short notice. They may like to wait and spread the cost of improvements over a number of years, but by getting a loan from the Government which they can repay over a number of years they will be enabled to do now what they might not contemplate doing for years to come.

I am as anxious as Deputy Brennan or any other Deputy sitting behind the Minister to assist him in seeing that the best possible service is given in return for the very big expenditure involved in the administration of this measure. I want, however, to say at the outset, as a personal opinion which cannot be altered, that authority to decide tourist policy and matters associated with it should be in the hands of as small a number of persons as possible. I feel that with the coming into operation of this board and with the existence of another board and the Irish Tourist Association behind them there is likely to be duplication and confusion with the consequences that follow both.

As far as I am concerned—and I have been observing tourists coming through the gateway of Ireland for a period of 20 years—the best possible type of tourist that can be induced into this country is the wage-earning section of the community from Great Britain. They come here with whatever they may have in their pockets, £20, £30 or £40, and spend all of that money. They do not, as some Irish-Americans do, go around looking for something for nothing and they are satisfied if they are catered for in a proper decent way. It is the desire of the Minister, I am sure, and of everybody supporting the Bill that reasonable facilities should be provided for that type of tourist.

We have plenty of good food and plenty of good drink here, and the person who suggests that there is little need for advertising the facilities for tourists in this country does not—to put it plainly—know what he is talking about. I know, and the Minister knows better than I know, that during a period of the last emergency there was hidden hostility towards tourists from Great Britain, and that did not disappear at the end of the war. I personally am satisfied that we should give all the money within reason to advertise the facilities which this country provides and can provide to a better degree in the future for the tourist.

I disagree entirely with the people who say that there is no justification, no necessity, for the classification of hotels. If I said what I know and can produce evidence to prove I would be doing what Deputy Cowan has accused others of doing: publicising this country to its disadvantage, and I do not propose to do that. As the Minister, the Government of the day and the Dáil, as a whole, are now providing, through the medium of this Bill, a very large sum of money, it is the duty of the Minister to see that the proper facilities are provided by hoteliers, transport people and everybody else who can give any service to tourists. I daresay that Deputies have read, with particular reference to the areas they know best, the guide which was circulated last week by the Tourist Board. When I read that guide, relating it to my intimate knowledge of hotels within a radius of a few miles of the place where I reside, I was surprised to see two hotels undertaking by advertisement to provide for so many people and declaring that they had so many bedrooms. I can assure Deputies that those two hotels which advertised in the guide could not provide accommodation to-night for anybody, because they are actually engaged in a reconstruction scheme at the moment. I would urge upon the Minister the necessity and the desirability of not giving free publicity through the tourist guide to any hotel which has not been previously inspected by an officer of the Tourist Board. Such an hotel, having been inspected, should be put in its proper classification.

Not alone during the present Minister's time but during his predecessor's period of office I have received complaints from hotel people about the type of inspectors who visited them for the purpose of carrying out their duties. It is just like the publican who reports a Guard for doing his duty. When I get reports of that kind—and I have long experience of them—from a person who makes a complaint about a Government inspector sent out by the Tourist Board, I suspect that there is something radically wrong, and that there is just cause for inspection. I would urge the Minister not to allow anybody to get free publicity with the money provided by this Bill unless the premises have been inspected by an officer of the Tourist Board, and that inspector is satisfied with the facilities provided there.

I have heard stories, truthful stories, about boarding-house keepers and hoteliers in the lower classes—they should be in the lower classes, at any rate—who put so many people into a room. A bedroom in the normal hotel or boarding-house should be allocated on the basis of cubic space, and it is not right to pack six or eight people into such a bedroom, when it is capable of accommodating, within reason, only half that number. Boarding-house keepers have been reported to me personally—I investigated some cases privately, but never made any complaint—as having left people lying late in bed in the morning, instead of calling them at a particular hour, so that they would have to rush out without their breakfast to catch the mail boat. I assure the House that that is not a story—it is a fact—and it is our duty to ensure that such things are not allowed to take place, on the part of any boarding-house keeper who enjoys the protection of the money provided under this Bill or under previous Acts of the Oireachtas.

Would they give them time to pay their bills?

I could tell a story which relates to a man who is now in the House of Lords and the driver of a hackney car. A friend of mine who is now fairly old and a member of the House of Lords came, for the first time, to Dublin, via Belfast, and I arranged to see him after his arrival. He arrived at Amiens Street and had arranged to stay—there is no harm in mentioning the hotel because the story is not against the hotel—in Moran's hotel. He engaged a jarvey and told him to drive him to Moran's hotel. He was driven up around the bus station, along Eden Quay, up O'Connell Street, and, after having a look at the Twelve Apostles, was brought down to Moran's hotel. When he had a look around, he found that he had been only a few yards away from the hotel, but the jarvey had put a quick one over on him and had compelled him to pay for being driven on a circuitous route to his hotel when he could easily have walked.

I hope the Deputy is not suggesting that that is something which happened only in Dublin.

It is an old story, but true. I could give the name of the noble lord, and have no objection to giving it to the Minister in private. I quote the story for the purpose of pointing out that hackney-car owners have their part to play in helping the Minister to build up a better tourist machine. Those who produce the food, although they do not know it, those who distribute it, those engaged in transport and those who own hotels and boarding houses are all people who will have to be educated into the idea that the tourist industry is, next to agriculture, the most valuable industry in this country, and that the more energy they put into it and the more assistance they give, the more they will get in return for the services they are expected to provide in order to make tourism a greater success than it is.

If we can double the income from tourists, if we can bring it up, in two or three years, to £60,000,000 instead of the £33,000,000 at which it stands at present, Deputy Cogan, I am sure, will agree that most of that money will find its way back to the farmers who produce the food supplied to the hotels where the tourists are fed on the best of Irish food. I can never understand the attitude of the representatives of farmers on local authorities who sometimes grumble and growl about providing a miserable £250 or £500 a year—about a farthing or a halfpenny in the £—to help to develop the tourist industry. Deputy Cogan has sat at many meetings of the county council of which he is such a distinguished member and has heard opposition to that kind of proposal. I hope that, when he goes back and hears a proposal of that kind, he will point out to the farmers who are so foolish as to think that they get nothing out of tourism that they are getting more out of it than anybody else.

There is a good deal of leeway to be made up by Government Departments, and particularly the Board of Works, in the matter of tourist facilities. The Minister was asked a question by Deputy Brady yesterday as to what improvements, if any, were being provided for in the landing stage at Dún Laoghaire pier. Dún Laoghaire is supposed to be the gateway of Ireland. Deputy Hickey would not agree with that and would say that Cobh naturally comes before it, but he will have to agree, as will Deputy MacCarthy and every other man who stands up for Cork—I salute them for doing so —that there is room for improvement in every landing place in this country. During the past 20 or 25 years, I have not alone visited the majority of the ports in Great Britain, the Six Counties and this Republic, but I have had the experience of travelling to many of the continental ports, and I say that it is a disgrace to the Government of the day—I am not blaming the present Minister in particular; I blame his predecessor as much as I blame him—that we have the type of landing stage we have to receive tourists on their arrival in this country. May I remind the Minister—I hope he will look up the file in this connection because he suggested that, in what I said yesterday, I did not know what I was talking about—that, as long as 15 years ago, Córas Iompair Éireann, then the Great Southern Railways, the Board of Works and British Railways held innumerable conferences for the purpose of endeavouring to frame proposals for submission to the Government for the improvement of Dún Laoghaire pier — proposals which placed the responsibility on the three parties concerned of playing their part in the improvement of the landing stage there and of the steamers plying between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead.

I was associated to some extent with some of these conferences and I know the proposals which were made. Is it not a shame that the recommendations of a body such as that should be lying in the pigeonholes of any Government Department for nearly 15 years? If the improvements then agreed upon had been carried out, the cost would have been one-third of what it would be now, with the increase in the price of materials, steamers, station buildings and so on.

And the estimate was that it would take six years to complete the plan.

I do not care how long it takes. You will have to start some time and not on the basis of the patchwork which you are now carrying out——

The patchwork will solve this year's problem.

Patchwork which will have to be pulled down and replaced, by somebody with the courage to do it, by proper permanent work. It was agreed by British Railways that they would provide new steamers—these have been provided and are now in service—on condition that a suitable pier would be provided. It was also agreed by Córas Iompair Éireann that a new station should be erected at an appropriate cost of £40,000; that the one line running down to the pier, which is dangerous from an operating point of view, should be wiped out; and that there should be four bays on the Victoria Wharf for passengers from the North, South, East and West running through Amiens Street, which would have saved 55 minutes on the run from Dublin to Cork, apart altogether from the better trains and other improved facilities provided. It is a disgrace that that scheme should have been allowed to remain so long in the pigeonholes of the Board of Works.

Some day some Minister will have to carry out that scheme, at more than three times the cost that would have been involved at that period. I urge on the Minister to take a personal interest in the scheme now about to be launched, to take his courage in his hands and see that whatever improvements are provided at Dún Laoghaire Pier, Cobh or any other port will be of a permanent nature and that the money will not be wasted on a patchwork structure which must be pulled down in a few years. The conditions under which people are landed at Dún Laoghaire are a scandal. They have been lined up also for nearly a whole day, in all classes of weather, to get on to steamers leaving there. The same applies in Cobh, but I cannot deal with that, as I have not the same intimate knowledge of that port. I was in Cobh some few years ago, and I say that the way passengers are landed from American liners is a scandal. It is no wonder that many of the American liners ceased to call at Cobh. I have more than reason to suspect that that was one of the reasons why they were diverted by the orders of their directors. I suppose I am pushing an open door when I urge the Minister to provide these facilities and I hope no further delay will take place.

I am sorry to say, also, that the internal transport facilities are not up to the standard they should be to deal with tourists in a more expeditious way and also to deal with internal traffic. Is there any justification in the wide world why, on every Saturday night, when these people are coming from Killarney, Blarney and other beautiful scenic spots in the South and the West of Ireland, there should not be a special train to bring them to the North Wall or Dún Laoghaire instead of packing them into the over-crowded mail train which is delayed at the junction stations to load passenger or freight traffic?

That has held up the departure of the mail steamers sometimes for one two or three hours. Again, I do not think we have any reason to be proud of the carriages. I do not know why Córas Iompair Éireann is not strongly urged to provide better passenger rolling stock, not only for tourists but for our own people. Until that is done, many of those who have left the railways for the road service will not go back.

Was there anything worse than the direction given a few years ago to close down the refreshment and dining-rooms at junctions on main lines, at the very time when the hotels department was earning 10 per cent. for the company? The people were left there for hours on end without facilities for a cup of tea.

They did not serve tea but soft water, and charged 1/- for it.

I have urged the Minister and Córas Iompair Éireann to reopen those restaurants and dining-rooms, if they have any desire to serve the travelling public and turn the company into a profit-making concern.

They made a profit all right.

I assure Deputy Corry the records will prove it. The Minister gave an answer recently to a question, showing that this is one of the sections of Córas Iompair Éireann which is making a profit.

I say they made 200 per cent, and I entirely agree with what Deputy Cafferky said.

I urge on the Minister and his colleagues in the Government the need to provide better roads, to remove dangerous corners on main and trunk roads, and especially to provide better roads leading to national monuments or places of scenery which we expect tourists to visit. I was brought about two years ago with Deputy Paddy Boland, my colleague, of the Fianna Fáil Party, and Deputies Tom O'Higgins and Seán MacEoin in Clonmacnoise. We were invited there by the parish priest, who regards it as his duty to see that that great national monument is preserved, and that there is a proper entrance for tourists into this place of historic interest. I was ashamed, as any Deputy would be, of the main road into Clonmacnoise. After terrible pressure for three or four months during the term of the last Government, a limited amount of money was provided to improve the road on the Offaly side. Now we are up against the Roscommon County Council. Deputy Beirne is over there now; he was or is chairman of that county council, and they are too poor —they have a poverty-stricken outlook —to spend an extra £3,000 or £4,000 on that road.

Deputy Davin knows nothing about it. Is he a member of Roscommon County Council?

I am not. Does Deputy McQuillan challenge the accuracy of what I said?

Yes, the Deputy is challenging its accuracy.

Very well. That is on the records now. I will leave it at that. I travelled over the road myself on Monday week, and it is a disgrace to the county responsible for its up keep. There is about two miles from the bridge—the Deputy knows the place and I advise him not to drive too fast in his motor car or he will get it on the top of the head and remember it as long as he lives.

Why on the top of the head?

I suppose it is like the imagination of some of the Deputies and county councillors who have this responsibility. I urge the Minister and my colleagues, Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Beirne and every other Deputy, to agree that there is a clear case—in view of the revolutionary change in the whole transport system, both in this country and in the world— for the reclassification of our roads. Anyone who would reclassify them would ensure that money was provided by the Tourist Board or the Board of Works or the local authority to improve transport facilities leading to places like Clonmacnoise, and to places of that kind in Donegal, Wicklow and elsewhere. I have no desire to exaggerate. I assure Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Beirne that that is a bad road. I had experience, accidental experience, of travelling the two miles and I am proud to say that, bad as the roads in parts of Laoighis and Offaly may be, there is nothing as bad as that one. I would ask the Minister for Justice, when he is touring that part of his constituency, to make that journey but to warn his driver not to go too fast.

I have no hesitation in giving my support to this Bill, with the qualification that I would prefer to see a single authority, a small body, in charge of the policy-making side of the tourist business. I suspect that some of the speakers on this side of the House, I am sorry to say, when criticising this measure apparently had certain individuals in mind and suspected that they were going to get jobs under this board, and they were individuals whom some Deputies did not appear to like. Whatever jobs the Minister has to give, I urge him to give them to people with some knowledge and experience of this work and not to overload it with any particular section of the community who would use their membership of the board for their own selfish interests. I have heard a previous chairman of the Tourist Board severely criticised here—I am not going into the matter, as it is a delicate one—but I happened to know the man concerned and I know he has a life-long experience of the tourist business. He was mainly responsible for building up that business and whether he is a friend of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael or Clann na Talmhan or any other Party does not matter to me. All I am concerned about is that the jobs which are available would be given, in the interests of the tourists—it is the tourists who are going to provide this money—to people with knowledge and experience who will give the best possible service.

Whatever criticisms are offered to certain aspects of this Bill, the organisation of our tourist potentialities is in the main welcomed by all sides of the House. It is generally conceded that the Minister approaches problems in a big way with an admirable attention to detail, and that he does not confuse the trees with the forest or the forest with the trees. In contemplating the organisation of our tourist potentialities the Minister very wisely examined the organisations already existing. We are too prone in this country to scrap what already exists instead of building on what has stood the test of time. By scrapping what we have and building again on something else, we lose, in great measure, the experience of past efforts. I am particularly glad that the Minister has incorported in this new organisation the Irish Tourist Association. Some members here to-night were talking about travelling from Rosslare to Cork, from Cork to Dublin and so forth. There is, if course, the old standing joke about Cork people taking a single ticket to Dublin.

A Deputy

It is not a joke.

There are more Donegal people in Dublin than Cork people. The Irish Tourist Association took a single ticket to Dublin and it has now been there for a great number of years. It is one of those vocational, voluntary organisations which ought to be encouraged. My only regret is that it is not mentioned more specifically in the Bill, even though the Minister has combined An Bord Fáilte and the Irish Tourist Association in forming the new publicity branch so to speak—An Fógra Fáilte.

We are aware that the Irish Tourist Association is not a statutory body but, at the same time, we must recognise that statutory bodies, such as corporations and county councils, are authorised to contribute to its finances, and that, over a number of years, it has had at its disposal the contributions, small though they may have been, of these bodies. There are advisory councils of the Irish Tourist Association throughout the country, and the incorporation of the Irish Tourist Association in the general organisation for the promotion of tourism will ensure that these voluntary organisations will still have a function in the particular areas where they have been formed. We have the idea of attracting tourists to this country by means of the work of the organisation which is to be set up under the Bill, but we must examine as well what we have to offer to these tourists when they come and how we are to provide, to the best advantage, for their reception in the country.

Much has been said about our ports and about their defects in the past, most of it true indeed, and about the delays in providing trains and transport for the big numbers of people coming off liners and ships at these entrances to our country. These are matters which will be grappled with and improved.

The condition of our main roads has not been critised very extensively, but there has been a great deal of criticism of the county roads and the by-roads, many of them leading, no doubt, as the Minister said in his opening remarks, to very historical places such as monuments and abbeys which recall the past and various aspects of our country's history to which we could direct the attention of our visitors. The improvement of the roads themselves and the putting up of better direction signs in the vicinity of monuments giving some little account of their background will help to attract the visitor and awake in him an interest in our history. Our national characteristics, our dignity, our native charm and all the other matters of which visitors speak are, in great measure, bound up with our national history.

Our trains have been criticised. I feel it can be said that our trains on the main lines, and certainly our buses, can compare favourably with those in any other land. It is true, of course, that there is room for improvement on our branch lines. Sufficient attention is not paid to time-tables on the branch lines, to amenities which would improve the trains or to the facilities which visitors would expect. However, our buses are splendid, and the organised tours have been spoken of very highly by visitors to this country. Our airports and our aircraft are not excelled anywhere. As far as the improvement of our transport goes, the nation has not been static, and much of a helpful nature has, undoubtedly, been done.

In connection with our national monuments, the improvement of our roads and so on, the Minister has mentioned co-operation between the local authorities and the new organisation. He mentioned the financial help which will be given. Many county councils have national monument committees and, undoubtedly, these are the bodies to which the Minister referred. I know of cases where the county council votes a small sum, perhaps a couple hundred pounds each year, for attention to some monument which may be falling or becoming derelict, with a view to preserving it for future generations. In removing the derelict buildings which should not be there, undoubtedly the public authorities can do much to improve the appearance of our countryside and to take away from it some of these undesirable dead walls that do no credit to our industry or to the appearance of our countryside. Our natural beauty and scenery are world famous. There need be very little reference to them here. The only thing is that the new board will sufficiently advertise it to make it more generally known to people abroad so that they may be attracted here. Our hotels also have been improved a great deal, and even though much remains to be done, Rome was not built in a year. If we set our minds to it and progress with the times we will not be doing too badly with all the difficulties confronting us.

During the visit of Mr. Christenberry and his party to this country I had the pleasure of accompanying him—as somebody else mentioned here, a while ago—I think it was Deputy Davin—to Blarney, and then to historic Gouganebarra and Glengariff. As has been said here to-day, having stopped and taken meals without any notice whatever at some of these hotels, these Americans were particularly attracted to the natural manner of the people in those hotels. They were families who have been for a number of years in that particular business and who have not changed to imitate any people in any other land but have preserved their own characteristics. They were particularly charmed with the hotels which they saw in that way, and undoubtedly the satisfaction that they had in those visits and travels will be of immense benefit to the country when they give their views, as they are now being given, for publication in other places.

Mention has been made here of America and of our friends in America. Some people have spoken disparagingly of them and, I think, quite unjustly. As one who had the advantage of spending, ten or 12 years ago, some months in America I can say that if the already existing county organisations there are properly contacted particularly in connection with their big functions around St. Patrick's Day and in celebration of other occasions applying to the various counties, great benefits would accrue to the homeland. Their interest in our native land is as keen as ever it was and however their attitude may be described here, they stand up for their own country and when they are abroad they are looked upon by other races in countries like America with the highest regard. At these functions they have the highest in the land with them irrespective of the race to which they belong. These many contacts will be most helpful to members of the Tourist Association and An Fógra Fáilte when they visit these lands and try to obtain their support for tourism in our country.

These Americans of whom I am speaking are interested in our history. Of the first four people I met in Philadelphia three, although they had never seen Ireland, spoke in Irish. Newspapers there had lessons in Irish for the Irish people, and that is something some of our own papers might with advantage copy. Some of these people, whose grandfathers had fought in the American Civil War around 1864, and who themselves have never seen Ireland, were crying out for more knowledge of Ireland to build up a greater knowledge for themselves and a greater love for the land of their forefathers. I remember on our return that time a former chairman of the Seanad, Seán Gibbons, was with me. On the way we met people who had never seen Ireland. They were going to Europe and the liner called to Galway. We had spoken so much of Ireland that a party went ashore with the consent of the customs officers. They hired four cars and travelled down through the country, visited Blarney on the way, and rejoined the liner at Cobh. It will be seen therefore what propaganda can do. If the Irish people are only Irish wherever they go, if they do not just copy and toady to those whom they meet, their own land will have some advantage from their contacts, and it will be to the general uplift of the nation.

There is very little more I can say except this. I am not at all happy about the licensing provisions of the Bill. Whatever licensing laws are in this country should be uniform, so that people with motor cars cannot leave one place and go to some other place that is open. All these licensed houses should open together and close down together, whatever the hours are. That is my view on the matter, and personally I am sorry there is any extension in the Bill by way of hours.

There is not.

It is for the people living in the place, I admit, but nevertheless it is an extension.

No, so far as hotels are concerned the provisions of the Bill relate to the granting of hotel licences which would be subject to the same conditions as every other hotel licence.

There is an extension of hours up to 9 o'clock.

Public-house hours will be enforced.

Are there not camp licences?

For non-residents.

For the ordinary days of the week there will be the same hours as public-houses.

For camps?

Yes, for camps.

Is that an extension?

I understood it was up to 9 o'clock on certain days, and that there were special facilities for Good Friday and Christmas Day.

For residents.

Which at present does not prevail. However, I am only giving my views. It is just a point that struck me, that people would be able to go from one place to another and do something that could not generally apply.

This measure, I am sure, will be a great advantage in having the tourist business properly organised. But if criticisms are offered during the other stages of the Bill I feel sure that they will serve to the general uplift of this country, to bring its name more prominently before our own people who have left it, their descendants who may come to us and those visitors from other lands who will here have a haven of relaxation from the worrying circumstances of the present-day world.

I have no intention of covering ground that has already been covered in this Bill, nor do I intend to offer any criticism to our way of life. I welcome this Bill but there are certain aspects of Part VI of the measure with which I do not quite agree. First of all, I feel that the general public should have a right to object to the granting of any new licences. Under the Act of 1902 under which I believe we now work, the public in general and the affected trades have a right to object to any new licences being granted. I agree with the granting of provisional approval for plans submitted for a new or altered hotel. This might be outside the scope of this Bill, but I think the scope should be widened further in relation to licensed premises in general.

The police authorities are the only people who have a right under this Bill to object to the granting of a licence. I would suggest that the grounds on which they can object are very limited. They can object more or less on the ground of suitability of premises and suitability of the person applying for the licence. I think the Minister should consider having a provision in the Bill that objections could be received on the ground that too many licensed premises already existed, both hotel licensed premises and public-house licensed premises.

Mention is made in the Bill of the granting of licences for holiday camps on St. Patrick's Day and other closed days. It seems very strange to me that restrictions are imposed on patrons of public-houses and that as each Bill relating to the licensed trade is introduced greater facilities are offered to people who can afford to travel in motor cars and to people who on these particular days can afford to attend race meetings, dog shows and club houses. The ordinary working man cannot avail of any of these facilities.

It also appears that parishioners or other people have no power under this Bill to object to the granting of licences for holiday camps. As clerical authorities might well be concerned about moral conditions in such camps, I would suggest that this is a strange omission. I would ask the Minister to give that matter consideration.

I will conclude by asking the Minister to clarify a small point for me. I think the matter was raised by Deputy Alderman Byrne and Deputy MacCarthy. The question I want to ask him is: can a public bar be opened in a hotel under this Bill?

Well, I would suggest to the Minister that Section 38, which reads—

"Where a person proposes to construct or alter premises for use as an hotel and to apply to have the hotel licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquor, he may apply to the Circuit Court for a declaration that the proposed premises would be fit and convenient to be so licensed and the court, if it is so satisfied, may grant the application on such terms as the court may think fit"

—might lead people to believe that they could get a licence which would entitle them to a public bar. I would ask the Minister to deal with that point when he is replying. That point should be clarified if the Minister feels so strongly that public bars cannot be created in new licensed hotels.

I welcome this measure because, like all Deputies, I realise the tremendous benefits that are being bestowed on the country by the tourist trade.

The first thing that strikes me as being rather peculiar is the fact that, from now on, we will have three different outfits or boards looking after the tourist trade. Let us call the whole business tourism, if you like. In order to expand tourism and to reap all the benefits that it is possible to derive from that trade, we need, according to the Minister now, three separate boards. I do not agree that it is essential to have Part V—Fógra Fáilte—in this Bill at all. Before this Bill passes, I would ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the question of getting rid of that section, if at all possible.

When the idea of having three boards was broached, I believe the Minister's heart, and not his head, won the day. If the slate were clean, to use the Minister's own words, I think the Minister would start off to-morrow morning with one board, which would be charged with the function of developing the tourist trade and with carrying out the necessary publicity to achieve that object. I would like the Minister, at a later stage, to give us the full facts and the reasons that led him to set up this extra board and to leave them completely separate.

The board is not completely separate. I think that is the mistake that people are making. The board consists of members of the Tourist Association and members of the Tourist Board.

I agree. But is not the publicity board or Fógra Fáilte a completely separate board, inasmuch as they are solely responsible for the publicity section? If I go to the publicity board with a question that has something to do with An Bord Fáilte they will refer me to Fógra Fáilte. It is all very fine for people who live in this country to come up against that difficulty, but when we are dealing with visitors we should make everything as easy as possible. They are up against enough difficulty as it is without being referred from one board to another when they seek information.

When a visitor makes a complaint about conditions in his hotel, if he happens to go to the wrong board he will be told that the complaint should be made to An Bord Fáilte. It is quite possible that the visitor will come to the conclusion that they are only passing the buck.

I make these suggestions to the Minister, because, personally, I am not satisfied that the name An Bord Fáilte is an ideal one, nor do I think the name Fógra Fáilte is an ideal one. I am not going to suggest suitable alternatives.

"Fáilte Teóranta"?

I would suggest to the Minister—he has left himself open to the suggestion—that if he is prepared to welcome suggestions with regard to a more suitable name that he could achieve two objects by having a competition through the newspapers or through the Tourist Board itself, in which good prizes would be offered for the best name submitted for this board. That would give suitable publicity to the tourist trade, and it is quite possible that a suitable name would be forthcoming. The initials of the name Fógra Fáilte are "F.F." The only thing that brings to my mind is Fianna Fáil.

It brings several other things to other people's minds.

If tourists saw the initials "F.F." and thought for a moment it meant Fianna Fáil there is a danger that they would never come. There is a point that I want to deal with and it has been mentioned already by Deputy Morrissey. There is a type of tourist that comes here for fishing and shooting, not at the peak of the tourist season. We should have two things in mind in connection with the tourist business as a whole. First of all, we must take a long term view. The day is bound to come when a certain type of tourist who at present comes to this country will no longer come. I am of opinion that some tourists who are coming here now come here solely because they cannot get on the Continent. The difficulties that exist on the Continent have been referred to by other Deputies, and I do not propose to elaborate on them.

There is a tourist of a really good type, a tourist who will come back year after year, if we put at his disposal suitable pastimes. I shall give an example, first of all, in connection with fishing. Let us take it that a salmon caught in one of our rivers fetches £5 when exported to the London market but if that salmon is caught on the Shannon, by one of these tourists, I suggest that its ultimate value to us would be between £60 and £80. The tourist who caught that fish may be living for a fortnight or three weeks in a local hotel. For the greater part of that time he may catch no fish but he is living in hope. He gets one salmon after a fortnight or three weeks and he has great fun and amusement out of it. He is quite satisfied as long as he has good "digs," good food and suitable fishing facilities. Another important matter to be considered is that that man is not dependent on good weather to enjoy himself. He does not care whether there is rain, hail or snow. I want to point out as forcibly as I can that one of the factors that will count against this country in the development of the tourist trade is the weather. I do not care what facilities you provide for indoor amusement; they will not be sufficient to take the bad taste out of the visitors' mouths if they have to spend week after week confined to a hotel room or an amusement park looking out at the rain pouring down. The type of tourist that has undergone that experience is a type that you can never hope to bring back here year after year.

I am not going to criticise the Minister on the ground that he is endeavouring to entice these people into the country. I think we should take full advantage of the fact that possibly for many years to come the Continent will not be available as a holiday ground for many visitors from America and England. We should, as I say, take full advantage of that fact and hope and trust that by what we are able to display to them here, we shall be able to induce at least portion of these people to renew their visits in future years. Side by side, with attracting those people we should have the long-term view of attracting the type of tourist who is keen to come here for what we can offer. We should, however, be very careful that we do not adopt here a synthetic replica of the American way of life. I think nothing would be as foolish as to establish big luxury hotels here. I protested against such a policy in 1947, on the first occasion I had any experience of politics. I have had no reason in the intervening period to change the criticism that I expressed in 1947 in regard to such hotels. I think the foundation of our tourist industry should rest on the medium-sized hotel and the guest house. If these are properly run, with good food and adequate sanitary arrangements, the people who frequent them will be satisfied.

Deputy Davin mentioned the question of roads. This is a matter of immense importance in connection with the development of the tourist traffic. I am not now going to enter into a dispute with Deputy Davin about the position in regard to the road leading into Clonmacnoise. He mentioned the fact that the time was ripe for a complete overhaul of the method by which roads are repaired at present. I think that would have a very important bearing on the possibility of attracting more tourists to this country.

It is all very well to have the trunk roads from Dublin to Cork and from Dublin to Galway in good shape, but what about the county roads and the branch roads leading to many of our beauty spots along the coast and to many places of scenic interest such as the lakes in the Midlands, Roscommon and parts of Mayo? Some of the roads leading to these lakes and the mountains cannot be traversed at the present time with safety by a person travelling in a car. Unless steps are taken to put these roads in a proper state of repair, I do not think we shall be in a position to deal with a big tourist influx. There is no use in the Minister telling us that that is the responsibility of the local councils. I am prepared to dispute that on another occasion, probably when the Estimates come up. I think that the question of responsibility for the maintenance of roads has gone beyond the stage when the local authorities should be blamed for their present condition. The rates are so high at present that local authorities are not able to live up to their responsibilities and the time has come when the State must step in, in connection at least with the main and trunk roads, and make full cost grants available for such roads.

Several Deputies mentioned the question of visitors from America. I feel that this is about the first time that we have begun to realise that the people who emigrated to America and to Britain can be of use to us after all. It is something to say that apart from welcoming home our friends from America, we now hope to make some money on them. That is precisely the aim of this Bill but I do not think we should look on these people at all as tourists. I think we should look upon people who come here from America—first generation or second generation Americans—as if they had been here all their lives and treat them as such. I do not think it fair that they should be made shuttlecocks for Deputies in a debate of this nature—some of them speaking in their favour and others criticising them and sneering at them. I think the more of them who come here the better we would like it and the more we would welcome them; they should not be looked upon merely as tourists who must be dealt with on a business basis.

I am particularly interested in the long-term development of the tourist traffic and that means the development of our national resources such as inland fishing, shooting and hunting. I think other Deputies mentioned the facilities available for hunting abroad, but I would say the two most important features, from our point of view, are fishing and shooting facilities. At the present time there are few, if any, facilities available in regard to fishing. I think it was Deputy Cafferky who suggested that it would be wrong for us to stock our rivers and lakes with salmon and trout, as the visitors who come here to Ireland to fish are mostly of the millionaire class. Nothing could be further from the truth. The best type of tourist we have is the man who comes here to fish year after year. He spends plenty of money and he is a good type of visitor. He will come back to this country, hail, rain or snow. My reason for making these statements is that we are not making any use whatever of the inland fishing potential. There are lakes and rivers in this country in which fish would abound if steps were taken to clear some of these rivers of coarse fish, for a start. Apart altogether from that—and I do not intend to dwell now on the merits of fishing—there are rivers in Ireland to-day where people fish for coarse fish alone. That, too, is an excellent pastime and many people come over from Britain just to partake in it. With proper development, these rivers could be made an inducement to visitors to come to this country.

I shall not deal in detail with the facilities for rough shooting in this country, because they are negligible. I like to go out shooting in various parts of the country during the season, but my pleasure is spoiled when I discover that I am liable to be put into jail or to be prosecuted if I am caught on certain tracks of bogland or in woodlands in my constituency because the rights to shoot over these tracks belong to people who do not even live in this country. It is tragic that facilities to partake in the sporting rights available in this country are not enjoyed by the people who live in the country—and this is a matter in which Fógra Fáilte should interest itself. It would take several years to provide the proper facilities for rough shooting on a big scale in this country. I think the Minister knows something of Scotland and of the number of visitors who go there each year for rough shooting. If our bogs and woods were properly developed I think they could be made as attractive a proposition as any offered in Scotland.

I appeal to the Minister to find some other name for the board to be established under this Bill than the one which is proposed—Fógra Fáilte—and also to consider seriously the removal of Section 5 which deals with Fógra Fáilte. I have already given him some of the reasons why I think that that name is unsuitable. If he wishes the people of the country to exercise their ingenuity in thinking up a good name for the new board, I can think of no better way than by asking them to do so. That would have the effect of bringing to their attention the fact that the tourist industry is the second largest industry in the country—and an appeal could be made to them to treat the tourists not as people who should be rooked but as individuals whom we hope to attract back to this country year after year.

I wish the Minister luck on the measure as a whole. I hope that we in this country are only at the start of what should really be our biggest industry.

The first matter I should like to deal with under this Bill is the question of our ports. It is an old saying that a lot depends on first impressions. What must be the first impressions of people coming into the town of Cobh to-day when they are met by an antiquated tender belonging to the Cork Harbour Commissioners—an antiquated tender flying the flag of this country, though the flag is in such a condition that one could not possibly discern its colours? It is time that that condition of affairs were ended. I suggest that the proposals the Minister had before he left office in regard to the provision of a proper deep-water quay in Cobh should be implemented.

I do not know how much has been spent on publicity by various tourist boards in this country, but I wonder where our money went and how it was spent. Every week I go up to Kingsbridge station. It sometimes happens that I have to wait half an hour for my train. I walk up and down and look around at the advertisements. You will see advertisements telling you about sunny Devon, about the beauties of Cornwall——

Have a look at Cobh.

——about Switzerland and Norway and the Isle of Man. You will see a picture of a beautiful, glamorous lady—and Paris written underneath it. You will see many advertisements but you will not see a single advertisement telling you of the beauties of Glengariff or Killarney or of any other of our beauty spots. I took up this matter three years ago with the then Minister, Deputy Morrissey, and later with Deputy O'Higgins when he became Minister for Industry and Commerce. I also took it up with the general manager of Córas Iompair Éireann. Unfortunately, however, there has been no change— and when a stranger comes to what is supposed to be the principal railway terminus in Dublin and seeks to discover where he is going to spend a fortnight, he will read advertisements inviting him to sunny Devon or to Cornwall or to Paris, but he will not read anything of the tourist attractions of this country. I suggest to the Minister that a few bob out of that £250,000 should be spent on advertising in our principal railway stations the beauty spots of this country.

Put you there as a showpiece.

I am principally interested in Part VI of the Bill. Some two or three years ago I introduced a measure to this House to enable one of the few classes in this country who must work on Sundays to go into the local public-house and get a drink on a Sunday. It is a pity that the Minister for Justice is not present: he should be present in the House for this Bill. For good or ill, that measure was turned down by this House. The ordinary country boy who has to get up at the crack of dawn to milk the cows, feed them, and take the milk to the drones—and who has even to knock at the door to wake them up and deliver it to them—was refused the right of going to his local public-house on a Sunday for a drink.

On a later occasion I endeavoured, as there were so many pious people in this House who did not think the country boy could be trusted with a pint on a Sunday, to get the same terms as the country boy was getting applied to the cities but the gentlemen who voted in favour of preventing the country boy from getting a drink had no intention of preventing the city buck getting a drink.

Later a Bill was brought in by Deputy Seán Collins in regard to holiday camps and was kicked out of this House by a very large majority. The Deputies who voted that time against giving a liquor licence to holiday camps I suppose will trot around, when it is camouflaged into a Tourist Bill, and vote in favour of giving a licence to holiday camps. Our first duty is to our own people. If our own working people, one of the very few classes who still have to work on Sunday, are to be deprived of the right to go into the local public-house on a Sunday to get a drink, I will never vote for any measure that is going to give a licence to a glorified shebeen known as a holiday camp.

Under this Bill, in addition to the other facilities given, they can serve drink on Good Friday and St. Patrick's Day and they can give drink also to anyone who "walks the way" during that time.

The right to procure liquor is not confined, as we were told, to the people residing in the holiday camp, because, under Section 44 of the Bill, liquor can be consumed there by any person—it does not say anything about what distance he comes—between the hours of 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock in the afternoon or between the hours of 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening if, at the same time, a substantial meal is ordered by him and it is consumed "at the same time as and with the meal, and supplied and consumed in the portion of the licensed premises usually set apart for the supply of meals". Therefore, any person living near enough can get intoxicating liquor on a Sunday, on Christmas Day and on St. Patrick's Day in this new glorified shebeen known as a holiday camp, while this House denied the right to the ordinary country person, the man who has to work on a Sunday owing to the nature of this business, to walk into his local public-house and take a drink. While that is denied to this man, it should be denied to the well-to-do in this glorified shebeen.

I consider that the licensing laws, as they stand at present, are unconstitutional, and are depriving the Irish citizen of the fundamental rights granted to him in the Constitution— equal rights for all citizens. That a tourist Bill should be used as camouflage for the purpose of getting through this House a Bill which was kicked out of this House within the past two years is very wrong. I do not propose to go into the general advantages or otherwise of this Bill. I am concerned mainly with the different sections in Part VI, particularly with Section 45, which says:—

"Nothing in Section 43 shall operate to prohibit the licensee from supplying intoxicating liquor on Good Friday between the hours of one o'clock and three o'clock in the afternoon or the hours of six o'clock and nine o'clock in the evening to a person who for the time being is bona fide lodging in the holiday camp, if the intoxicating liquor is ordered by that person at the same time as a substantial meal is ordered by him....”

We all know the manner in which that particular provision in the licensing laws is used in hotels. We all know the kind of meal that is served; we have seen it long enough. I received guarantees here from Deputy MacEoin when he was Minister for Justice in the former Government that he would bring in a Licensing Bill. He succeeded in putting back a Private Members' Bill in this House on three occasions by guaranteeing that that Licensing Bill would be brought in.

Is the Deputy proposing to discuss the whole licensing laws on this Bill?

I am discussing Part VI of this Bill, no more and no less. I am discussing the sections in Part VI and comparing them with the treatment which has been given to the ordinary citizen. That is all that is worrying me.

I hope to get an opportunity when this Bill is in Committee of wiping out Part VI. I guarantee Deputies that I will give them an opportunity of voting on it and of turning their coat for a third time if they wish—they have turned it twice already. I regret, as I said, that the Minister for Justice is not here as I would have a better opportunity of going into the ramifications of Part VI of this Bill with him. How could any Garda Force enforce licensing laws while that kind of a shebeen racket is passed as an Act of Parliament by this Dáil?

So much has already been said on the Bill and it has received such unanimous support, that there is very little left for me to say except this, that I agree with those Deputies who have spoken in favour of the suggestion that there should be only one board dealing with tourism. I am inclined to think that the Minister was rather sentimental because he is taking some members of the Irish Tourist Board to be members of a joint board. I think we should leave sentiment out of this. If we are to have a board it should be one that would be representative of the interests catering for tourists. I suggest that the hoteliers should have two representatives on it, that there should be a representative of transport on it and a representative of the restaurant trade, which is very important from the tourist point of view. I would hope, too, that the Minister would put somebody on it representing the people who give the greatest service, namely the workers in the hotels and restaurants.

I want to see a labour representative on it. Deputy Davin spoke of having somebody on it with a knowledge of tourism. I am sure the Minister will be able to find such a person. If he is, then we would not have any objection to such a man being put on the board. But I do suggest to the Minister that the interests I have referred to should also be represented on it.

Deputy O'Donnell objected to the supervision of hotels and to inspectors calling to hotels. I think that under the previous legislation one of the things that showed good results was the inspection and grading of hotels. At the same time I want to say that I am very much opposed to some of the decisions made with regard to the grading of hotels. The fact that some hotels were graded enabled them to more than double their prices since 1940-41. I have noticed that in some hotels which are now trading as Grade A hotels the prices have gone up by over 200 per cent. since 1940.

With regard to tourists, whether they arrive at Dún Laoghaire or Cobh, their first impressions are important. What they have to go through is certainly very important, whether at Dún Laoghaire or Cobh. It is a regrettable state of affairs, after all our years of government, that passengers coming by direct liner to Cobh are still exposed to the elements on the tender of which Deputy Corry has given a description. Plans for a wharf in Cobh were drawn up by first-class engineers some 15 or 20 years ago. I am sure they are still in the Minister's office. It was estimated at the time that the works could be executed for about £2,000,000. In view of the importance of the tourist industry it surely would be worth spending even £6,000,000 so as to enable the liners to come in close and discharge at the wharf. I am sure many Deputies are aware of what happens when a liner comes in sight of Cobh. Some of them may have seen a small tender going out on a wet, a snowy or a stormy morning waiting an opportunity of getting close to the liner to take the passengers off. I know for certain that hundreds would get off at Cobh if it were not for the ordeal to which they would be subjected. Instead of getting off at Cobh, hundreds, as I say, go on to Southampton and then come back to Dublin to see Ireland.

Would the Deputy say how many ports in the world can accommodate Atlantic liners on the basis that he has suggested?

The Minister is probably thinking of the Queen Mary. I am thinking of the ordinary liners which disembark passengers at Cobh.

At the great majority of world ports the passengers come ashore by tender.

But not the distance that passengers arriving at Cobh have to come.

We offered them £50,000 to remove the rock.

I suggest in all seriousness that this country is worth more than the expenditure of some thousands of pounds to have a development of that kind. I have spoken to captains arriving at Cork port. They have told me that Cork Harbour is the finest in the world, with the possible exception of Sydney. Friends of my own were in America during the past two months. They met people who mentioned that they had spent their holidays here last year or the year before. They spoke very highly of Ireland and told of how they enjoyed their trip. They mentioned the fine harbour at Cobh, but regretted the treatment of passengers when coming off the liner. If those people speak about that to their friends in Philadelphia or Boston and tell them of their experiences, well, it is not going to encourage them to go through the ordeal which passengers experience at Cobh. If they are coming to Ireland they will decide to go on to Southampton rather than get off at Cobh. I think there is a good deal in what Deputy Corry has said. Of course, all this comes back to the old problem that when a scheme was submitted to the Government years ago, the excuse was that there was no money to do the work that was proposed.

We are now told by the Minister that tourist development was worth £32,400,000 to the country last year. I suggest to him that this problem should be tackled with courage and vision. I have been listening to the Minister and Deputies speak of what tourism means to the country. It is undoubtedly very important if it is now going to bring us in £32,500,000. That is very important, and yet it was regrettable to observe that we did not hear one word from anyone who spoke on this Bill as to why we have had an hotel strike in Dublin during the past 21 weeks. That, surely, is an important consideration in view of the fact that the tourist season is now about to open.

I do not think it is generally understood or believed that the wages paid in first-class hotels in Dublin are such as I am about to describe. We know that you cannot have decent service in the hotels except you have contented workers. Under Section 5 of the Bill, there is a proposal to expend money on the training of workers so that they may be properly equipped to give efficient service. But what are the wages paid in first-class hotels in Dublin? Waiters get 61/6 per week plus an allowance for food and waitresses 41/6 plus an allowance for food. I think the allowance is about 22/6. Now, these workers are obliged to work a 50-hour week with a spread over from 6.30 or 7.30 a.m. to 10 or 11 o'clock at night, with a three-hour break in the afternoon. Is that not a matter that affects tourism, taking workers out of their beds to be on duty at 7 o'clock in the morning to give service to tourists and then tell them they can take three hours off in the afternoon? They are on duty until 10 or 11 o'clock at night. These are the conditions under which they work. I think our hotel waiters, waitresses and porters are scandalously paid. Our waiters and house porters are expected to rear families like their counterparts in other employment. They are entitled to do that, but the fact of the matter is they are not paid sufficient to enable them to establish their own homes and bring up a family. Waiters are expected to earn a livelihood by making up the deficiency in their wages through the medium of tips. We are told that they have got a big increase in the past ten or 15 years, but that should not be the yardstick.

In 1938 or 1939 I arrived late one night at one of the best hotels in a particular city. A lady served me with tea on my arrival. At half-past seven the next morning she also served me with breakfast. I asked her if she had to be on duty at that hour of the morning having worked so late the previous night. She told me she had. I asked her what her hours were and she told me there were no set hours.

I asked her what her wages were and she was reluctant to tell me. Two days later I went back to the same hotel for lunch. I got into conversation with the waitresses. What did I discover? That lady who had served me on the first occasion was paying the hotel proprietor 15/- per week for the privilege of working there. The boots, the last person I spoke to when leaving the hotel, was paying 10/- a week for the privilege of working there. That was a first class hotel in that city.

I suggest the time has come when this system should be ended. Last year we got £32,400,000 out of tourists. It is the hotel staffs who give these tourists such good service, and I have been told that many tourists have expressed the opinion that they got as good service in hotels in Cork as they got anywhere in the world. Yet, we have a 22-weeks' strike in Dublin with hotel employees picketing premises in an effort to get a reasonable wage and decent conditions of work. It is a scandal that this state of affairs should be permitted to continue. We talk about Christianity. We have an opportunity now of practising it.

I think it is wrong that any establishment should be allowed to describe itself as an hotel where there are upwards of three beds in one room and where patrons are charged quite a high figure for bed and breakfast alone. On the other hand there are hotels in the country which are a credit to the country. I have been on some of the Córas Iompair Éireann tours and I met on them people from India, Australia, England, Scotland and the West Indies. On one tour we went via Killarney and Glengariff to Gouganebarra. We had tea at Gouganebarra. Two foreigners who sat at my table asked me if the food that was served was the normal food to which we were accustomed. They thought it had been specially prepared for them. Some of the hotels in the bigger towns and cities fall far short of the required standard. There is need for supervision and for grading. There is also need for examination into the 200 per cent. increase in charges since 1940. I think everybody will support the Minister in anything he does in that matter.

I do not agree that grants should be given for the improvement of hotels. Possibly, a loan could be given, to be repaid in some reasonable period of time. An hotel is, after all, a business proposition for the owner, and he should not be given a free gift for improving his own business. There are directions in which money could be profitably spent on improvements. Youghal, for instance, has a beautiful natural strand, and I would like to see money spent there to improve the amenities in order to attract more tourists. There are hotels outside Cork to which it would be worth while giving assistance, but there should be a stipulation that the money would have to be repaid.

There are no free grants to hotels in this Bill. There are repayable loans.

I agree that local development associations can do a good deal for tourism, and I think they should be encouraged. The Tourist Association started in Cork. It went from Cork to Dublin, and now I understand it is to be absorbed into the Tourist Board.

It is going into obscurity.

I would like to see local initiative encouraged. I see no need for two boards to deal with tourism, and I think they will only result in confusion, because there will inevitably be conflict between them. On the Tourist Association there was complete representation; there were voluntary workers; the hotels were represented; there was unlimited co-operation between them and the association. I would not like to see local initiative killed, but, if we have to have a board, I think there should be a transport man on it. The hotels should have direct representation and so should the restaurants. I hope the Minister will put a representative of the workers on the board.

I think the train services would need reorganisation. They do not seem to be as efficient as they ought to be.

The night mail came from Cork recently and arrived in Dublin at 8.10 a.m. instead of at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. The night train going down at 6.30 p.m. from Dublin arrived in Cork in the early hours of the morning. I travelled to Cork last Friday night and the train stopped at the mouth of the tunnel. I am less concerned for my own comforts than for those of the people who come to Ireland for the first time and have this experience. I am anxious to know what is the justification for that state of affairs. We have sufficient engineers, inspectors and managers in Córas Iompair Éireann and we are paying them sufficiently well that they should do their job more efficiently than they have been doing.

I will get the train to Cork doubled.

That is the position. We were not delayed long at the mouth of the tunnel. Whatever was wrong was remedied and we got out of the difficulty.

As far as we are concerned we will support every effort to make tourism a success. I believe that the big problem of the future will be providing for leisure. That may seem a strange statement but it is not when we have regard to developments which have taken place. Workers are getting a fortnight's holidays now which they never got before and there is also bound to be a great increase in tourist traffic when the world returns to normal. I believe that the problem in the future will be to provide for leisure and not for pleasure.

Like Deputy Corry and others, I do not want to see any more facilities given for the drinking of intoxicating liquor in this country. I do not believe that anybody comes to this country for the mere purpose of having a booze. There are enough facilities for drinking intoxicating liquor under the ordinary licensing laws of the country, and I would not like to see any more facilities given nor would I like to see it being made more easy to consume intoxicating liquor in this country. We should try to keep the people as temperate as possible.

Last year I happened to be where there was a number of people who came from a country far away from Ireland. They were anxious to see the Irish people, or as they said "the natives." Some of them felt that the people of this country were very different from what they had been depicted by people outside the country. We should be alive to the type of propaganda which purports to describe the conditions and class of people in this country. I heard these people talking about the class of people that were in Ireland. They were anxious to go to remote places of the country in the hope of seeing "the real wild Irish." To their amazement they found that these people were most cultured and courteous. We have a lot to show the tourist who wishes to come here for a holiday.

During the last few days I have listened to a good deal of this debate. We were treated to what I might call an Irish hash. There was a good deal of talk about Irish stew, but certainly this House got an Irish hash. "Too many cooks spoil the broth." I am satisfied that we have too many boards and organisations dealing with tourism in this country, and until we are able to put tourism in the position that it will be controlled by one effective organisation we will get nowhere. I am satisfied that in the past the appointment of tourist boards in this country left a very bad and foul taste in the people's mouths because it was a job and a racket and nothing more. Everybody in this House and outside it knows that blinking well.

It is not by means of organisations and tourist Bills that we are going to have an influx of tourists, rather is it by the way we treat our own people and the economy we encourage amongst our own people. It is a sad commentary that we have to rely on tourists to balance our economy.

There is nothing wrong about that.

This country should be able to live on its own resources.

Tourism provides one method of doing that.

One would think that we are a lot of fools and loafers waiting to devour almost every tourist and foreigner who comes to Ireland and that all we want to do is to get our hands deep down in their pockets and bleed them white. I do not believe in that kind of thing. Before falling over tourists or anybody else, we should cater for our own people. While we have tens of thousands of tourists teeming into the country to see Ireland and enjoy themselves, we have scores of thousands of jobless people going out of the country to make a living in other lands. If all the millions that have been talked about here were spent in giving work, comfort and holiday camps to our own people in this country we would be doing better work.

I am not against tourism, but I think of the plain people first. There are thousands of people living in the hills and the bogs who never saw the seaside or never got an opportunity to see it. They never can get a bus to bring them to the seaside or to a holiday camp. We now talk about millions for the tourist industry in this country. I know it is a great industry and brings in money. I know, too, that it is at its peak at the present moment, but if Europe was opened up and if there was no threat of war our tourism would fall to almost nothing.

Our country is a good little country but it is only a speck of an island in the world. The Americans come here just because they have nowhere else to go. It is the same with the British and others. If we have all those millions to spend, let us spend them on our own people first. I know we have very little to learn from outsiders but if we are going to have tourism on a big scale, where will we find ourselves? Will the Irish Ireland for which people fought, suffered and died be realised? It certainly will not. We will become a spiv nation and nothing more.

We have opened up foreign holiday camps in this country, with the result that we have the unfortunate Irish falling over themselves trying to imitate the foreigners in those camps. I am not against the running of those camps but I have everything against setting them up in this country because this country never got a chance. We want Irish ideas but you cannot have those and be engulfed from outside by a wave of tourism and spend millions of pounds on those people in order to give them a way of life and do nothing for our own people.

There are many types of tourists coming to this country. Many are a good type and well worth fostering, but there are many bombasts who come in here and laugh at the ignorant Irish and make little of them. You have the immigrants who come here to look up the homes of their ancestors. They are worth anything to this country. They are worth catering for. You have also the spiv who comes here and leaves a trail behind him. He is of no use. He is a miserable creature both to himself and everybody else. I am one of those who believe in an Irish Ireland and who believe that we should balance our economy in our own way, standing on our own two feet. We should not depend on anybody outside for a wrong way of life.

It is sad that we must at the present time depend on tourism as our lifeline. I do not believe in that. Tourism is all right as a sideline but it should not be the lifeline of Irish economy. That is a terrible position to be in after 30 years of native Government. I do not believe in spending all these millions. £50,000,000 would not cover all the things we have been asked to do during the last two years to cater for the influx from all over the earth which was to come to our little isle. Many have come, not for love of us, but because they cannot get further afield. I would not change the Irish way of life to please one of them. If they will not have Irish stew when it is put in front of them let them do without. We are told that we must suit the American, we must suit the Yank, we must suit the Saxon and to hell with the Irish. I believe in our own way of life. If the people who come here do not like the Irish dinner they get let them do without. Let them eat the same as we get ourselves. Irish hotels are clean, tidy and well looked after. I am satisfied that in this country we have got clean hotels, good hoteliers, and that we are as well off in that respect as any other country. This small, insignificant little country is far ahead of all the countries in Europe. We are first on the list. We are a modern little country. We can hold our heads high. There is no need for us to bow and scrape. The people who come here get good value. They are well catered for. They will get courtesy and civility. If we stand up for ourselves they will go away with the idea that we are a decent, honest people, a nation worth preserving.

The tourists for whom we should cater are those whose ancestors left our shores in generations gone by and who are now coming back to the land of their forebears. They will spend weeks and months here and make Ireland their annual holiday. I would cater by all means for them, but I certainly would not believe in absolutely falling over ourselves to attract tourists. At the present moment it is a money spinner and next year I expect it will be a bigger money spinner and perhaps the year after, but as the threat of war fades out and Europe opens up, do not think that you will have tourism as a lifeline because you will not. The only proper way to advance tourism is to put your own house in order first for your own people. What must the little simple people down the country who never see the seaside think when they hear the Irish Parliament talking for a week about what to do for tourists and the millions of pounds they will spend on them when we will not do anything for those people? Those people are always in a rut, always in misery, always in want of money and tens of thousands of them never saw the seaside. We should cater for them first and then the foreign tourist will say that this nation is a good nation, an honest nation which is trying to build itself up as a separate entity.

I believe that we can have good publicity by spending a reasonable amount of money. We can have clean hotels with reasonable charges, good national guide-books, up-to-date road signs and our historical and national landmarks put to the forefront so there is no reason why tourists should not come here while the going is good. They would come here if you never did anything for them at the moment because they have damn little else to do. They come in their tens of thousands, not for love of us, but because this is a nice handy cheap little place to spend a nice cheap holiday. We should look after our fishing, our shooting and all the things that go to make up Irish sport and we can do that without going into the millions of pounds which we hear so much about. Then we would be doing something honest, manly and noble to build up our country, but for the life of you, stop all this bombastic nonsense about what we should do. You would think that this nation was good for nothing, that we were an inferior people, that our hotels were dirty and our trains were dirty.

We are told that we should spend millions on our railways although we know damn well that our railways could be run for three or four million pounds. We must pour millions down the drainpipe of tourism. I would rather never see a tourist than sink the nation. We must face facts. We have a clean, tidy, decent little country with our Irish way of life. Our hotels are tidy, clean and as well looked after as they can be, and we do not want these modern eyesores, skyscrapers, as there is no need for them. We have our own decent characteristics and we should stick to them. The tourist will get as good food here as he would get in Monte Carlo—he will get Irish stew or a rasher and egg. He will get hotels as clean and tidy as he will get anywhere else.

I was one of those who always opposed holiday camps because you are threatened with materialism. No matter how well they are run that materialism will overtake and overrun you. There is that materialism in the influx that comes to them from Britain, and I see it in County Meath. It will overrun and overawe the Irish people. We have free thinking in them and free love is coming next, and we will wind up a materialistic Ireland, and down we will go like the rest of Europe. While we are a safe little country we must keep it that way, and we should have as few Irish holiday camps as possible. I would ask the Minister in the name of Heaven not to extend the licensing laws to the holiday camps. If people come to them let them come, but as Deputy Corry says, do not give them privileges that you will not give to the Irish people in the rest of the country. I am not one who will throw up his hands and beg people to come in here. I would rather see the money spent on Irish people who have the Irish way of life than to spend it so that tens of thousands of foreigners may come here to enjoy themselves. I would rather spend it on stopping the tens of thousands of people who are going out to beg jobs in other lands, and we would then get the tourists.

In opening this debate the Minister made a mistake in referring to the tourist industry as being second only to agriculture. By that reference he has brought upon himself a debate on agriculture. Nevertheless, I suppose I must admit that in that statement he was saying something that was absolutely true and something which we must recognise: that the income from the tourist industry is second only to the income from the agricultural industry. Nobody can deny that.

I want to refute now the wails of despair we have heard from Deputies Giles and Cafferky and others who represented the tourist industry as one which will collapse if and when normal conditions return to the world. I do not share that view. I believe that if the world is favoured by God with peace the standard of living of many nations will rise and that as a result more people will be able to take holidays, not only in their own countries but abroad. I do not agree with those who say that tourism is an industry which caters only for foreigners. I think that we should look forward to a position when many of our people in this country will be able to take holidays and we should, through our tourist industry, encourage and help them to take their holidays in Ireland. If we have those ideals. I think that we can advance them; but if we look upon the future with despair and if we look upon the tourist industry, as Deputies Giles and Cafferky look upon it, as something that has no future, then, of course, we would be ill-advised to go ahead with this piece of legislation.

Like practically all Deputies who have spoken, I am in complete agreement with this Bill, and, like many other Deputies, I would feel, as I think possibly the Minister would feel, that it might have been better if the Irish Tourist Association could have been strengthened and made an approved statutory organisation and if, through that statutory organisation, the whole tourist industry could be managed. If that organisation had a controlling board and a publicity section, and if all were streamlined into one combined organisation, I would feel that it would, perhaps, be more efficient; but in matters of this kind there are very often difficulties to be overcome, and I do not think it makes so very much difference, provided there is the closest co-ordination between the bodies which are to be constituted. We have one board which will concentrate its attentions on administration and the development of the tourist industry here. We have another body which will concentrate upon the work of publicity, and surely anyone who thinks of the tourist industry at all must realise that there are two essentials in the preservation of that industry.

One is the attraction of tourists to this country or the attraction of our own people with leisure to our tourist resorts, and the other to hold them here and ensure that they will continue to avail of our tourist facilities. The first of these functions will be performed by Fógra Fáilte, which will seek to publicise the amenities and attractions of our country. The other important function will, I assume, be performed by An Bord Fáilte, which will, by a variety of measures and means, ensure that the tourist industry will become more efficient as time goes on.

A lot has been said about the names given to these bodies, An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte, but in such matters it is very easy to criticise. Frequently, however, it is very difficult to provide an alternative. I am reminded by the discussion with regard to the titles which arose in connection with this Bill of the experience of a certain "spiv" of whom I have read. He spent three sleepless nights trying to think of a name for a company which he was seeking to promote. After these three sleepless nights, he finally arrived at and registered the title of Honesty, Limited. Very often, the more time and talk given to small matters of this type, the more futile is the solution obtained.

My main reason for intervening was to counteract, if I might, certain suggestions which were made in regard to the relative merits of various portions of this country. Deputy Brennan of Donegal referred to a statement in the Christenberry report in which the scenery of this country is described as breath-taking. The Deputy, I think, mistakenly took that description as referring to Donegal. In actual fact, that description referred to the country generally and was in the widest terms. I quote now from the synthesis of this report which says: "Scenery—much of Ireland is breath-taking in its magnificence." He does not define any particular area. He does mention Tipperary and Kerry, but does not mention Donegal.

He made a mistake then, because Donegal is much the best, so far as breath-taking scenery is concerned.

I expect there would be some disagreement about that.

That is why I said it —to get disagreement.

There will always be different opinions on these matters. I am sure that during the past year, in the months of April and May, Deputy Sweetman had occasion to visit the beauty spots of County Wicklow.

Do not describe the steps in Hacketstown to which you are referring as a beauty spot.

I wonder did the Deputy find himself in the Glen of Imaal, Glenmalure and Glendalough? I think he travelled as far as Deputy's Pass in the course of his touring of the Garden of Ireland, which I have the honour still to represent, in spite of the Deputy's royal tour.

He was in West Donegal, too.

Surely it will be recognised that the Garden of Ireland does deserve at least mention, and if we are to make this measure a success, if we are to make the schemes envisaged in this measure beneficial to the country, I think you will find in Wicklow scope for development and will find there also opportunities for attracting tourists from all parts of the world. East Wicklow has been intensively developed in regard to the tourist industry, but West Wicklow does require some intensive development. Deputy Sweetman and other Deputies are aware of a place called Baltinglass, the capital of West Wicklow. It is a very beautiful small town set in very beautiful surroundings but it is not, unfortunately, a tourist centre. That is probably because the people there are not sufficiently publicity-minded, but it is a place in which the tourist industry could be developed. There are in that town people of enterprise who can build and improve hotel accommodation and there are also, I am sure, good cooks in that town who can provide ——

Excellent cooks.

—— suitable food for visiting tourists.

Debate adjourned.
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