Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 May 1952

Vol. 131 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Office of the Minister for Justice.

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Boland)

As in former years, it is proposed to have a general debate on all the Votes for the Department so that any specific questions may be raised.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £53,560 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges which will come in force of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

In accordance with the practice of previous years, I propose, if Deputies see no objection, to deal on this motion with the nine Estimates, Nos. 29 to 37, inclusive, for which I am responsible. All of these Estimates are for essential services. They are made up mainly of salaries, wages and allowances, and apart from changes in rates of pay, they do not vary much from year to year. Accordingly, I do not think that there is any necessity for me to go into any detailed explanation of the figures. The Estimates have, of course, increased steadily in recent years, on account of increases in rates of pay, but I can assure Deputies that every effort is being made by way of reorganisation and simplification of procedures to secure economies. But for these measures, the cost of the services would be higher still.

The first Estimate, No. 29, is for a total sum of £80,360 for the Office of the Minister for Justice. It is almost the same as last year's Estimate and does not call for any comment.

The next Estimate, No. 30, is for £3,608,840 for the Garda Síochána. It shows an increase of £124,490 over last year's figure. This increase is due to four main causes:—

(1) A revision of Garda pay as from 1st January last;

(2) provision being made to take in 300 recruits during the current year;

(3) provision being made for 53 weekly pay days in 1952-3 as compared with 52 in 1951-2;

(4) an increase of £63,000 under sub-head H in respect of transport.

The increase in respect of transport is due partly to increased running costs but mainly to provision being made for the purchase of 85 cars and eight motor-cycles as an addition to the Garda transport fleet.

The Prisons Estimate, No. 31, at £197,020, is much the same as last year's. Owing to increased costs of foodstuffs, fuel, etc., and the need for increased expenditure on maintenance and improvement of prison buildings, the Estimate would have been a good deal higher than last year's but for the fact that economies have been secured by reorganisation. It was found possible during the year to secure these economies by arranging that only prisoners on remand and prisoners serving sentences not exceeding three months would be kept at Cork and Sligo prisons. This enabled the staff of those prisons to be reduced. Deputies will observe that provision is being made this year for a total staff of only 295, including all ranks, as compared with a total of 314 in last year's Estimate.

In connection with the Votes for the Circuit Court and District Court, Nos. 32 and 33, I am glad to be in a position to inform the House that material progress was made last year in the improvement of the position of the staffs of these courts. As a result of an examination which was held last year, 71 unestablished officers of the Circuit Court were granted established status. Out of a total clerical staff of 151 employed in the Circuit Court offices, including 12 employed on probate work, whose salaries are borne on the High Court Vote, only 26 are now unestablished, and it has been arranged that all future vacancies will be filled by established officers.

Section 3 of the Court Officers Act, 1951, provided for the grant of established status to certain unestablished District Court clerks and the grant of retirement gratuities to other clerks who do not qualify for establishment. A scheme to give effect to these provisions has been agreed between my Department and the Department of Finance and will be put into operation shortly. Some economies were secured during the past year by suppressing a number of part-time posts of District Court clerk as vacancies occurred and assigning the duties of those posts to other clerks. Deputies will observe that provision is being made in this year's Estimate for a total staff of 154 for the District Court, as compared with 159 in last year's Estimate.

I do not think that there is any need for me to say anything about Votes Nos. 34 to 37, for the Supreme and High Court Offices, the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, the Public Record Office and the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests.

It has been customary for the Minister for Justice, when introducing his Estimates, to give a brief review of the volume of crime. I regret to have to say that the situation is not good. Before the war the average number of indictable crimes per annum was around 6,500. The figure increased steadily up to 1943, when it reached 17,305. There was a gradual improvement from then until 1949, when the figure fell to 12,171. In 1950 the number increased to 12,231, and the provisional figures for last year show a further increase to 14,462, which is more than twice the average pre-war figure. The increase has occurred entirely under the heading of "Offences Against Property", which consist mainly of housebreakings and larcenies. In 1938 offences against property totalled 6,142. In 1951 they totalled 13,128. Offences against the person have remained fairly constant, the figure for 1938 being 453 and the figure for 1951 being 450. Of the 14,462 crimes reported in 1951, 9,069 were committed in the Dublin metropolitan district.

The number of prosecutions for summary offences in 1951 was 145,660—a decrease of 1,922 on the figure for 1950. Road traffic offences accounted for 86,424 of the prosecutions, offences under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts at 17,212 being the next highest, followed by 10,238 prosecutions for unlicensed dogs and 6,138 prosecutions under the School Attendance Acts. Prosecutions for unlighted cycles and motor vehicles amounted to 50,000, more than a third of all the prosecutions for summary offences. It is very regrettable that there should be so much carelessness in complying with this safety regulation and that so much of the time of the Guards and the courts should be wasted enforcing a regulation the need for which is apparent to everyone.

As I said at the start, these nine Estimates are for essential services which vary little from year to year. This year's Estimates do not present any unusual features and I trust that Deputies will have no hesitation in approving them.

Mr. Morrissey

There is not much in this particular Estimate that one can challenge and I hope to be as brief in what I have to say on this Estimate as the Minister was in introducing it. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Minister has not given as much information as he could be expected to give. There is just one small bright spot in it, that this is probably the only Department—at least I am afraid it will be the only Department—that will be able to indicate to the House that there are reductions in staff rather than increases. The Minister made a passing reference to recruitment to the Garda force and that the intention was to recruit, I think, 300 in the current year. Perhaps the Minister would indicate to us when he is concluding whether the full 300 have been recruited and, if they have been so recruited, is the Minister satisfied that he now has in the force sufficient Gardaí to protect the person and property of the community.

The Minister has indicated that there has been a very substantial increase in crime, particularly in crime against property and that, of course, the great bulk of that type of crime lies within Dublin. Frankly, I am not surprised. It must be clear to everybody in Dublin that there is very little if any police protection of property in the city. The city, as we all know, has expanded enormously and certainly the police force within the city and county area has not increased to any degree in proportion to the increase in the number of houses and the extent of the area to be covered. Nowadays, it is a very rare thing to find a Guard on patrol duty at night in any part of the city and particularly in the outlying parts of it where protection is more necessary than perhaps it is in the centre of the city.

I feel that there is a very urgent need for the provision of sufficient police to give adequate protection to people in the City and County of Dublin. There is need for it in other parts of the country also, but it is most badly needed where the great bulk of crime is in order to give protection against housebreaking and larceny. I believe that the very substantial increase, especially in the last 12 or 18 months, is largely due to the fact that the offenders know that the likelihood of their being detected by the police in the commission of the crime is very remote.

One must be shocked in this year of our life to learn from the Minister that there were no fewer than 6,000 prosecutions for non-attendance at school. I hope I got the figure right. It is a figure that ought to shock us in this particular period, in view of the enormous expenditure, comparatively speaking, involved in providing primary education and in view of all the efforts that are being made and have been made over the years to provide better schools and more schools, to bring the schools, so to speak, nearer to the children. Having regard to the ever increasing necessity for seeing that our children and, in particular, the children of the poor, get the maximum education we can give them, it is, to say the least of it and putting it mildly, very regrettable that there should be no fewer than 6,000 school attendance prosecutions. Of course, we can take it from that that the 6,000 prosecutions do not cover the whole story, because I am quite sure that the non-attendance on the part of a child or children has to become pretty bad before a prosecution follows.

May I say, before I go on to the next point, that the Minister and the authorities are to be congratulated on having provided the new uniforms for the traffic duty policemen? Let us hope that it will be found possible in the near future to give the other members of the force throughout the city and county the benefit of those better-looking and more comfortable uniforms.

That brings me to traffic and transport. It is an understatement to describe the traffic in this country— and, again, more especially in the metropolitan area—as being chaotic and positively dangerous. It is a rather ticklish problem to speak on here but from my observation of it all the blame should not be laid, and cannot justly be laid, against the motorist. I think that the cyclists, and to a certain extent the pedestrians, show a degree of carelessness that is almost criminal. There are motorists in this country, particularly in this city and county, who in my opinion should never be allowed to sit behind the wheel of a car—and I am not confining those remarks to those who are inclined to indulge in alcohol. I have myself seen motorists in this country, and particularly on the County Dublin roads, show as great a degree of carelessness and recklessness at 11 o'clock in the morning as you will see sometimes at 11 o'clock at night. That is not to be taken as in any way condoning the drunken driver. I have no sympathy whatever for him and I do not think that anybody else has either.

There are drivers of cars who have very little regard for the lives or the limbs of the people who are using the highways and, apparently, they have very little regard for their own lives either. I am not so sure that we have not reached the stage—some people think that we reached it long ago— when there ought to be some test before a driving licence is issued. I realise that there is more than one point of view in that respect but, having regard to what a dangerous vehicle a motor car can be in the hands of a careless or incompetent driver, or a person who for one reason or another is unsuited to drive a car—having regard to the danger to life which a car can be in unsuitable hands—it seems rather strange that, just on the payment of 10/-, any person should be qualified to sit behind a wheel. I should like the Minister to have another look at that aspect of the matter.

I feel that we shall never put down the careless driver, in many cases the extremely careless cyclist and in some cases the careless pedestrian, with the present powers which the police have and with the inadequate number of police who are dealing with traffic and transport problems. I am not so sure that it would not be worth trying a system something like what they have in America which gives the Guard the right in respect of certain offences to inflict the penalty and collect the fine on the spot. There is a good deal to be said for that system though I know that there are points that can be urged against it. Anybody who uses the roads of this country, particularly a person who is driving a car, can hardly go out any day of the week without seeing traffic regulations broken with impunity. There is no Guard on the spot; the offender disappears, and there is no more about it. I should like to see tried out for a time a system of mobile police on motor cycles. I do not think, either, that it would be any harm if we had a few ordinary motor cars without aerials and loud speakers, and so forth, to announce to all and sundry that they were police cars, with perhaps a few plain-clothes policemen in them. I think they would be able to detect more quickly offences against traffic regulations than is the position at present.

I desire to pay public tribute to the police who are on point duty in his city and, for that matter, in other cities also, but particularly in Dublin City, where there is such a tremendous number of motor vehicles. These men carry out their very onerous duties for fairly long stretches of time. To keep traffic flowing, even as slowly as it does nowadays, through the centre of the city requires tremendous concentration, and I think that it is unfair that men should be expected to remain on point duty for long periods of time. I think that traffic policemen should be relieved as frequently as possible and particularly during the winter and in hard weather.

I do not wish to add to the almost innumerable duties which at the moment are placed on the shoulders of the police force of this country. I think a great many of the duties are not worth the time taken up by the police force in the matter of filling up forms and making notes and so forth. I think that a great number of the duties which they have to perform for and on behalf of other Departments of State take up an undue amount of their time and that some effort should be made to get those duties—in so far as it is necessary to carry them out at all—carried out in some other way. In my opinion there is no doubt that a good deal of the time of the Guards is taken up in a type of work which is almost futile and which I doubt serves any very useful purpose.

There is one particular duty which I should like to see the Guards carry out if at all possible in the areas concerned—and I say this with full knowledge of the very many duties which the Guards have to perform. The duty I have in mind could be of great value to the country if it were possible to earmark, so to speak, some Guards for it. I refer to protection for our inland fisheries. I have been told—I am just passing this information along for what it is worth—that the view is taken in Gardaí circles that the protection of fisheries is none of their business. If it is not, then in my opinion it ought to be. For a number of years past we have been talking and writing and making speeches about the value of tourists to this country and of the necesity to attract them here in the off-peak season in an effort to extend our holiday season. As I have said here on another occasion, it seems to me that there are three ways—and probably only three ways—in which we can attract the tourists in the off-peak season and so lengthen the period in which tourists will arrive here. These three ways are by the development of fishing, hunting and shooting—and I think, in particular, fishing.

I believe that our inland fisheries could be of very great value indeed to the nation but the present system of protection for various reasons is not effective. I should like the Minister to examine the matter at least to see if there is any way in which he could help.

Finally, might I ask the Minister if he can tell us anything about the Solicitors Bill—how far it has advanced, whether we are likely to see it in the near future or what is the position? I would hope that it is almost ready for presentation to the House and I would ask the Minister if he would indicate the approximate date of its introduction.

Mr. Gallagher

My contribution to this debate will be very brief indeed. I should like, first of all, to draw the Minister's attention to the increase in the number of gaming machines, particularly in the City of Dublin. The number has increased enormously in recent years. I am sure everyone here will agree that there is no need to dwell on the great danger involved for the youth of the city if this tendency is allowed to continue. In my own constituency, in which there are a number of tenement houses and corporation flats, one can see youngsters gambling at those machines every day. Not alone does one see children so occupied, but their parents also. They go in the morning to the shop to get their ordinary rations of tea, bread and butter and a few coppers—two or three or perhaps up to 12—will go into the gaming machines. We have heard the amazing figures from the Minister in regard to prosecutions under the School Attendance Act.

I am sure that you will find, in most districts, that many of the children missing from school are occupied at these gaming machines. I would ask the Minister to be very strict and have these machines removed completely. I do know of one case in which a young boy developed a craze for gambling at these machines. He went so far as to steal money in order to satisfy his craze and, as a result, he is now in a Borstal institution. I do not think these machines should be allowed, especially in the City of Dublin. I do not know how the country is affected, but here in Dublin people are gravely perturbed by the increase in the number of these machines and the facilities given for their operation. I would ask the Minister to have them wiped out completely. They are a scourge and a menace to youngsters of the city.

Mention has been made of recruiting for the Garda. As Deputy Morrissey has very properly put it, here in Dublin there is very little protection for property at all. Anybody who has any knowledge of what happens when the Dublin Corporation acquires house property under a compulsory purchase order will tell you that the very next day after the property is vacated, the house is broken into and that the lead pipes, lead flashing and everything capable of being removed is stolen. Even in good residential areas, such as Clontarf and Pembroke Road, when a house becomes vacant you will find that it is broken into that very night despite the fact that there are people living on either side of it. We who are members of the Dublin Corporation experience a great deal of trouble from the fact that corporation property is damaged in this way. Therefore, I would suggest to the Minister that when these 300 additional Guards are recruited the greatest number of them should be left in Dublin. They are needed badly in the city.

Before passing from the question of damage to houses which are vacated, I should like to say that we have had a number of complaints in connection with the removal of lead piping by the Gas Company immediately these houses are vacated. Some of these houses may not be in a really bad condition and the corporation might be able to transfer certain people to these houses as a temporary arrangement until such time as they get a reconditioning scheme carried out. When, however, these persons go into these houses, they find that the gas pipes have been removed and the Gas Company will not reinstall pipes unless the incoming tenants are prepared to pay a fee of £3. Deputy Byrne will bear me out in the statement that it would be a great hardship on these poor people to have to pay such a sum of money. The removal of the pipes in the first instance, of course, is due to the fact that we have not sufficient Guards in the city to protect such property. I would, therefore, appeal to the Minister to see that when these recruits are ready to take up duty they will not be sent outside the Dublin Metropolitan Area.

Mr. S. Collins

Are any of them good boxers?

Mr. Gallagher

Most of the boxers are left in Dublin. I do not know why, but we always seem to get them. May I say that the Guards assigned to traffic control duty here in the city deserve the greatest possible credit? They seem to have unlimited patience. In that connection, may I repeat a statement which has been made more than once, that the more one sees of lady motorists the less one likes them? The only thing you are sure of when you see a lady motorist with her hand out is that the window is down. You do not know which way she intends to go. I do say that the Guards deserve the greatest credit for their tact and intelligence in dealing with the traffic. I should like also to congratulate the Minister and the Department on the new uniforms supplied to the Gardaí.

On this debate last year I mentioned the question of providing houses for Gardaí when they are sent to the country. I have heard complaints that when married Gardaí are transferred to the country they are sometimes offered houses which are not suitable for men with families. I know the Department of Justice does not erect houses but it might be possible for the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister for Local Government, to formulate some scheme whereby proper houses would be provided for Guards transferred to the country. Finally, I would again request the Minister to do what he can to get rid of gaming machines.

Mr. Hickey

It is good to know that serious crime is not increasing to any very marked extent. I think we may attribute that to the efficiency of the Gardaí. I think everybody has nothing but the highest praise for the efficiency of our Gardaí. So far as school attendance prosecutions are concerned, I am anxious to know if the Minister can give us any indication as to the principal factor to which the Guards attribute the increase in prosecutions. Is the increase due to lack of parental control? In my opinion a certain amount must be due to bad housing and to slum conditions. From personal conversations which I have had with Guards in the City of Cork I know that they do attribute a number of these cases to bad social conditions and to an unsatisfactory home life. It would be interesting to know what has been responsible for the increase, especially in the City of Dublin, where, of course, there is the largest concentration of population. I am afraid it has to be looked upon as another of the evils of too large a concentration of population in one centre. The Minister for Education has a big responsibility in this connection. My information is that when there is a big movement of population from one district to another in the city, and when children are transferred from the area in which they were born to a new housing scheme, very often there is no school accommodation for them in this new housing area. That is another serious problem which must be considered by those who are responsible for enforcing the attendance of children at school.

When the houses are ready for occupation there are no schools available in the new housing areas and I think there is need for some co-ordination between the Department of the Minister for Justice and the Department of the Minister for Education in connection with the provision of schools in these built up areas so that the schools will be available to the children as soon as the tenants go into the houses.

With regard to traffic in our cities, I think the most serious complaint in that respect is the speed at which motorists drive through the cities of Dublin and Cork. I think there should be a definite speed limit in our cities and suburbs. I think it is scandalous that motorists should be allowed to drive through these places at the speed at which they drive through them at present. I do not know that it is always right to blame the pedestrian. Very often the pedestrian is puzzled because of the speed with which the traffic goes and I am inclined to blame the motorists more than anyone else for the number of accidents, particularly fatal accidents, throughout the country.

I agree with everything Deputy Gallagher has said about the housing accommodation for Gardaí on transfer from one district to another. I have come across quite serious cases of hardship myself where Guards were transferred and failed to find accommodation for themselves and their families. Some of them have to cycle very far to their barracks because they could not get houses in closer proximity to them. I would appeal to the Minister to give that matter his sympathetic consideration.

I think the fines imposed for offences under the food regulations are altogether too trivial and I think the Minister should take note of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has no power whatsoever in that matter.

Mr. Boland

I would be very quickly told off if I said anything to the justices in relation to that matter. They would probably tell me to mind my own business.

Mr. S. Collins

The Minister is quite right. He would be told off.

Mr. Hickey

I am pleased there has been no increase in serious crime but I am concerned with the increase in the number of prosecutions for non-attendance at school and the increase in the number of housebreaking charges, particularly in Dublin. In that connection I would again appeal to the Minister to establish some co-ordination between his Department and the Department of Education in relation to the question of permitting children of tender years into these cinemas. Has the Minister any responsibility in connection with these cinemas?

Mr. Davin

He has.

Mr. Hickey

It is very distressing to see children of five, six and seven years of age going into the picture houses while there is no restriction on what they may be shown in these places. Everything is done that seems to take away from our children that civic sense we would like to see them develop. There appears to be very little censorship of what is shown to children in the cinemas. I think those of very tender years should be prohibited from attending cinemas and for the other age groups there should be special showings. I am satisfied that cinemas have a bad effect on children and I think non-attendance at school is largely due to the fact that these children get a conception of life from the cinemas which is contrary to the Irish conception of life. They become indifferent to parental authority and everything else. I would like to see some restriction placed on their indiscriminate attendance at cinemas.

Mr. S. Collins

I, too, welcome the new uniform that has been issued to certain limited sections of the Garda Síochána and, like Deputy Morrissey, I trust there will be expedition in the supply of these uniforms to the force in general. I would direct the Minister's attention to the Garda officers normally on duty within the precincts and within the environs of Leinster House. I feel there is a special case for giving priority to them in the supply of this uniform. Leinster House is a centre of attraction for tourists and it would be an improvement to the general tone of the place if the Garda officers on duty were issued with the new uniform.

Can the Minister give us any indication as to what the results were, if any, of the inter-departmental committee set up to investigate the position of the Garda Síochána in general? Has there been any resolution of the problem of what is the ideal type of future Garda force? We hear a good deal of criticism with regard to the supervision of the City of Dublin and I would like to urge once more upon the Minister the desirability of an increase in the mobility of the force together with an amelioration of the conditions under which the men have to do night duty. I have advocated before that a mobile canteen would be a very useful addition to the depot transport of the Garda authorities so that the patrol men could procure at reasonable intervals some hot coffee and sandwiches. That would, in turn, enable them to check at a central point.

I think we are inclined to direct our criticism against the force without adverting fully to the necessity for a more highly mechanised type of efficiency as distinct from purely personnel efficiency. The increase in larceny and housebreaking must occasion alarm. I think the most effective way to combat that would be by having an efficiently mobile striking force with the patrol screen outside it. The more highly mechanised the Guards become the more likely we are to arrest these occurrences at the locus in quo or its immediate vicinity.

I am worried about the housing situation in relation to the Gardaí. I am also worried about the pensions of certain retired members of the force and, in particular, about the allowances to the widows of some of the deceased members. I have raised this matter before. I am not raising it now in a spirit of controversy or with a desire to embarrass the Minister in any way. I am raising it merely in order to keep it on record and to reiterate the appeal that we must make on behalf of these people.

On the question of housing for Gardaí, I think the time has now come for the Minister to set about having, in a district where you have a sergeant and three members of the force, at least one house available within his own control. We do know that many transfers have taken place in the case of married men, leaving single men untransferred. These transfers impose a considerable hardship on those people. One hardship which we seem inclined to neglect, arises from the initial transfer. That causes inconvenience, because in many cases, when a married man is transferred, his children may be at what one may describe as the half-educated stage. Those with experience in the education of children know that it is not exactly the best thing to have a break in a child's life when it has reached a certain stage of education. It will have settled down to the ways of a school over perhaps a period of four or five years, and so if a married Garda is transferred it may take some time before the children will readily settle down in a different school. I know the Minister can tell me that is the man's own affair, that the Commissioner may readily tell him that, too, and that the district justice may tell him that, but I submit to the Minister that it is a matter of general concern. I think the matter is one on which the Minister must have his own personal outlook and, therefore, I would suggest to him that it would be well if he were to examine it again and try to reduce to the absolute minimum the transfer of married men with families, particularly in cases where the educational problem arises.

There are other facets of the Vote which I want to deal with. I want to know from the Minister what progress, if any, has been made in regard to the inevitable hardy annual problem—the Land Registry—and what progress, if any, has been made in connection with the Circuit Court clerks. We had a fairly comprehensive advance made on behalf of the District Court clerks. I am sure they will be pleased to hear from the Minister of the abolition of certain part-time posts and that the number of established District Court clerks is on the increase. I am glad to see that, because one of the posts that had to suffer the fate of abolition happened to be in my area. I feel that the contumely which I might have suffered as a Deputy for not being over-vociferous in ensuring its continuance has been justified by the fact that a permanent and pensionable post will become available at some future time as a result of these amalgamations, which were long overdue. I feel the time has now come to deal with the next type of clerks. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, who has come in, will, I imagine, have something to say on that aspect of the question because he has a more intimate and more personal knowledge of the matter than I have. I would ask the Minister to put what pressure he can on the Department to ameliorate the many grievances which those people are suffering from.

In general, I think we are entitled to say "well done" to the Minister's Department. There have been many improvements effected, from our point of view as lawyers, in various aspects of the administration. We are glad to see that. With Deputy Morrissey I should like to revert for a moment to the question of the recruitment of 300 Gardaí. I am completely opposed to Deputy Gallagher's view. I think that nearly the worst thing that could happen to a young Guard is that he should be sent from the depot to a Dublin station. I do not think that is the best way to initiate those Guards into a knowledge of their general duties, nor do I think it would produce the most desirable consequences. I think that most of them want a little bit of experience, and I happen to know that a good many of them might, in the main, be very anxious not to get a city assignment at the moment.

I might ask the Minister, apropos of that, if he thinks there will ever be a solution of the vexed problem that arises in connection with Gardaí stations in the city. The Minister must know perfectly well—we know perfectly well—that the impact of the cost of living and the difficulty that arises in connection with various types of accommodation, is felt in a more exaggerated way in these city stations than it would, say, in the normal rural district. I wonder if there is any way of resolving that problem, and whether there might not be some special allowance made to the Gardaí in the metropolitan area to enable them to overcome these particular hardships?

I feel that many of the multitudinous duties which are imposed on the Gardaí throughout the country should be scrapped. I would be inclined to go even further than Deputy Morrissey did in this matter. I think the time has come for the Minister to retire, as quickly as he possibly can, within his own field. These Guards are being used as a kind of spare-time filing clerks, for the filling of forms for various Departments, and for the carrying out of various types of investigations. A great deal of their time is taken up in the filling and completing of forms. Now that rationing and its implications are, apparently, to go, I think the time has come for the Minister to get this type of archaic form-filling out of the way in the Garda stations throughout the country. I think he should also try and get rid, as soon as possible, of the accoutrementa and documenta, except those which are immediately relevant to his own Department, which adorn these places, thereby making more time available to the Gardaí to perform their normal duties, as distinct from being worried with filling forms and answering letters from X Departments.

I am not inclined to agree with what Deputy Hickey said about motorists. The main difficulty that is facing us to-day in connection with road traffic is not the much maligned motorist. The much maligned motorist has not got a snowball's chance in Hell if anything happens. There can be no doubt about that if one bears in mind the chaotic conditions which obtain so far as traffic in this city is concerned. If one wants to inform himself on that he has only to be around O'Connell Bridge at 5 o'clock in the evening and see what the conditions are there—a great congregation of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. In my view, the cyclist has become the real traffic menace in Dublin. There is a normal regulation which says that only two can cycle abreast. In certain circumstances three may cycle abreast, but in traffic it was never meant that more than two should travel abreast. Certain very worthy film excerpts have been issued by the Department of Local Government calling on all to "make the road safe". If you are driving a car and you happen to stop at Grafton Street corner or at O'Connell Bridge you will see anything from seven to 12 cyclists cross your bows. That is bad enough but when they start dodging in and out between the tiny little spaces which there may be between cars, then woe betide the driver of a car if he happens to touch one of them. I am not inclined to agree with going for the motorist where the motorist has been wrong. He, in the main, has suffered the consequences. I do not for one moment condone excessive speed in traffic. I do not for one moment condone any of the crimes that go with alcoholism in motor driving but I do think that the problem in the City of Dublin will have to be tackled to ensure that cyclists keep within a reasonable distance of the side of the road and not go joy-riding in and out of the traffic or form like a cohort or a phalanx across the road when traffic starts off. That is a facet of Dublin traffic that I would earnestly direct the Minister's attention to.

What are we going to do with certain pedestrians in Dublin who, with a pedestrian crossing on their right and left, will insist on crossing the road in different directions trying to catch up with some pal who is shopping or trying to shout some observation at someone else? What you are going to do with that type of pedestrian I do not know. In connection with the motor accident problem and a good deal of the traffic problem in Dublin, a fair amount of attention will have to be directed to the cyclists and pedestrians. I think the same is true, in the main, of Cork City. It is a three-fold problem and all the blame does not rest on the shoulders of the motorists. I earnestly urge the Minister to give some consideration to the production of regulations to control cyclist traffic in the City of Dublin. With a reasonable amount of control, I think the main difficulties in regard to congestion in traffic control will resolve themselves.

With other Deputies, I would like to pay a very sincere tribute to the point duty men of both Dublin and Cork. Patience and tact seem to be theirs in an inexhaustible supply. They meet with all kinds of difficulties, and I think it would be unworthy of us, on an occasion such as this, not to pay tribute to that courtesy and tact. Point duty is a type of avocation within the Guards itself that a person has virtually to have a vocation for in order to be successful.

Like Deputy Morrissey, I should like to urge the Minister to ask the Commissioner—it is primarily the Commissioner's function—to review the tour of duty of people on point duty, partiticularly in inclement weather during the winter and early spring. I think there has been considerable improvement in that direction up to now, but I would urge the Minister to have any further improvement that is necessary carried out as quickly as possible.

I think that the problem of school attendance is taken a little bit too lightly by everybody. Apropos of what Deputy Morrissey said, in the main, prosecution for non-attendance in relation to school children comes not on the first serious lapse or even on the second. It comes when there is an indication of a general disregard for school attendance not in the main by the child. The main responsibility in this instance must ultimately revert to the parents and that is where the root of this problem must inevitably lie. The Minister should urge upon his colleague, the Minister for Education, the speedy erection of adequate schools in very heavily populated areas. Some of the schools in these populated areas have infinitely too many children attending them and it is not possible to check rolls and check attendances efficiently. It is that type of overcrowding that inevitably leads to this loose system by which the children can either successfully "mitch"—maybe some of us mitched in our youth—or avoid attending school at all.

That is something which should cause us apprehension. Having regard to the limited opportunities and, in many cases, the possibility of ultimate emigration from this country, I think the least we can ensure is that the rudiments of education are the heritage of every Irish child in this new, free Republic of ours. It is a difficult problem to deal with and I am sure it is one that has given the Minister's Department a good deal of worry and distress.

It is easy for us to advert to it. I frankly admit to the Minister that it is not too easy to suggest a solution. You have the instance where the parents are both working and where it is necessary for the maintenance of a big family that both the mother and father have to earn. In that case, while one may criticise the parents, one must have a ready sympathy for the difficulties that exist. It is a problem that calls for the co-operation of all sections of the community and particularly of the clergymen of all religious denominations. It is something that must be tackled now. It is a growth that has shown its head and it is something which, if not stopped in the beginning, may be infinitely more difficult to stop in later years. I urge upon the Minister to use every means in his power to deal with the matter. Indeed, he may come to us to look for such other powers as he may feel are warranted to ensure the cessation of this tendency.

I sincerely hope that, with the output of new personnel from the depot, there will be an increase in crime detection and, as an inevitable consequence of that, a gradual decrease in indictable crime. We would seriously say to the Minister that, where he has single personnel for too long a time stationed in certain areas, it might be well to advise the Commissioner in the interests of the Garda force itself as well as in the interests of the general detection of crime to do a bit of switching around. I do not think there is anything as likely to impair the efficiency of a single member of the force as what I would call overfamiliarity with his particular district.

I wish the Minister luck in his efforts to check indictable crime. I wish him every success possible in the efforts to eradicate the growing increase in non-attendance at school. Generally, I wish to say that we are appreciative within the courts of the efforts of the Minister himself and of his immediate predecessors in the amelioration of some of the worst problems that arose there. May I conclude by again making a plea to resolve as rapidly as possible the problems of the Circuit Court clerks?

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. Lynch)

This debate will probably bring up many hardy annuals, as it generally does. There is one thing new that we noticed and that is the spectacle of Deputy Collins speaking in a quiet and even tone. It was most refreshing and, in fact, somnolent probably, a contradiction in terms.

Mr. Morrissey

He is only saving himself for coming events.

Mr. Lynch

Or having blown himself out from past events. However, it is good to see that a debate like this is approached in a proper fashion and that any matter that is put forward for the Minister's attention will be treated in an objective manner.

There is one matter which I will quote from my speech last year which was taken up, that is, the question of the sitting of the Circuit Court in Cork. I read the Official Report of the Debates and I noticed that the speech of Deputy McGilligan was taken up in making the case, only to a small extent, against it but the Deputy said that I contradicted myself in almost every second sentence. I read what I had said carefully and could see no contradiction in any respect in the way I made the case.

I am glad, however, to feel that this question will not become a hardy annual and that we soon may see the High Court sitting in Cork as a matter of course. The Minister, in reply to a question recently, indicated that the matter was receiving serious attention and he thought that all that was in the way was a small revision of the Juries Act. I would urge on the Minister that it is not necessary to wait for such revision. It is well known that the jurors in Cork are pretty well overworked in the matter of Circuit Court duties but, having regard to the advantages that would flow, I do not believe that the jurors would consider it a great hardship to serve for one or two terms on a High Court while awaiting the introduction of whatever amending legislation is necessary to extend the jury district in Cork.

I have not looked up the matter but I am told that the only thing that is necessary now is a small amendment of the High Court rules, and that only in respect of two small details in the matter of setting down cases for hearing. I do not think that such amendment should take a long time. Every effort should be made so that in the autumn, when the courts resume after the long vacation, the initial High Court of first instance should be held in Cork.

Deputy Collins referred to the question of the establishment of Circuit Court officers. I do not think he was listening to the Minister's opening statement in which he referred to the fact that about 71 serving officers were recently established as a result of a competition that was held last year.

Mr. S. Collins

I heard that all right but it does not eliminate all the grievances.

Mr. Lynch

The Minister also pointed out that there were only 26 officers remaining unestablished out of a total of something over 150 serving officers.

Mr. S. Collins

That was District Court officers.

Mr. Boland

Circuit Court.

Mr. Lynch

From time to time I have put many of the grievances of Circuit Court staffs to the Minister and I shall not delay the House by bringing up any details in this debate but I should like to refer to one outstanding anomaly in the establishment scheme that came into effect recently, namely, that an officer who was established and who was over the age of 30 years was not permitted to receive the ordinary children's allowances to which every established civil servant is entitled. I cannot understand why there should be a distinction between a man of 30 years or less than 30 years of age who has children and a man who is over 30 years of age and who has children.

I do not believe that there is any justification, moral or otherwise—and certainly not legal—in denying such established officer the right to receive the usual allowance in respect of the number of children that he has under 16 years of age or over 16 years of age and attending school. The matter should be looked into and remedied immediately. Apart from mentioning that matter, I shall not dwell on the question of Circuit Court staffs for the present.

The recruiting which is now taking place will, it is hoped, provide some easement in the matter of Garda duties. When I was young in Cork, to say that a man had a bobby's job meant that he had an easy time. Nevertheless, Gilbert has put it on record that "A policeman's lot is not a happy one". In present conditions I am inclined to agree. There are Gardaí on duty, particularly in the cities and in some country stations, for long hours, much longer than should be required of any human being. I believe there is a recurrence of the obligation to do night duty far beyond the ordinary capacity of a man's endurance and health. However, to a large extent, the recruiting will remedy that situation.

There is another improvement that could be effected, possibly not immediately, but in the course of time. The police barracks throughout the country generally speaking, are not very presentable. In Cork yesterday I heard the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs advert to the fact that the post office and the police barracks are the two public services to which the ordinary citizen has most recourse. Not only that, but the visiting foreigner, the tourist, usually has occasion, for one reason or another, to go to the police barracks. Generally speaking, the barracks present a very gloomy aspect. Old-fashioned forms are the only seating accommodation in most of them and, generally, the office equipment consists of old planks on trestles with ink stains, pencil marks and pen-knive marks, which have been there from ten to 50 years. Some attention should be paid to dressing up our police stations so as to banish the gloomy, foreboding appearance that they present.

I support generally what Deputy Morrissey said with regard to the issue of driving licences. I do not think it is justifiable that one can get a licence without even presenting himself to the motor taxation office. All that is required is to fill up a form. A young lad of 12, or even younger, on presentation of a form and a 10/- note can get a driving licence which will qualify anybody over the age of 16 years to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle. I believe that this question has been and is being examined and I hope a statement will be issued in the near future as to what will be done about it.

The Minister referred to road traffic offences as being by far the largest category of offences which are brought before the courts. Of the 86,000 odd offences to which he referred, 50,000 were driving offences under the Road Traffic Act. I feel that that 50,000 would be more than doubled if it were not for a futile piece of legislation that we have at the present time. I do not know if it is legislation or ministerial Order that obliges a person to have a dimming device on his motor car. There is no corresponding offence, so far as I know, so that anybody who has got a dimming device but fails to use it on proper occasions may be penalised. There must be some means of bringing him before the court under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act —possibly under the section which obliges a motorist to drive with due care for other users of the highway— but beyond that I do not think there is any Order or piece of legislation corresponding to the Order which imposes an obligation to have a dimming device by which it is obligatory to use that device on the proper occasion. I think it is a matter which should be looked into, although I appreciate the difficulty of apprehending a person who fails to use that device. It is naturally at night that the dimming device is used, and, in the event of a person not using it, it is practically impossible to catch up with him, unless we are to have the introduction at some future date of the mobile police suggested by Deputy Morrissey.

There is another matter with regard to lighting offences which I should like to bring to the attention, not so much of the Minister, as of every cyclist who has occasion to use the public roads, and particularly main roads, at night. The only requirement with regard to a rear light on a bicycle is some kind of reflector and, having travelled main roads frequently late at night in the course of my Dáil duties, I should like to point out to cyclists the danger of having only a reflector. The cyclist by failing to use a proper rear light is causing grave danger to himself. I say that in no spirit of endeavouring to bring about the imposition of extra taxation or from the angle of the convenience of the motorist. Generally speaking, the motorist who hits a cyclist from the rear at night will come off best, probably suffering no more than a dent in his left wing, but for the cyclist, the results are serious and if he recovers at all, he will probably suffer from a permanent disability.

That danger is all the more apparent and obvious where another motorist is coming towards the motorist who is approaching the rear of the cyclist and the earlier matter, the motorist who fails to dim, is possibly connected with this. Even if that motorist dims, it is still very difficult to pick out a cyclist ahead, with a motorist coming towards you. I appeal to all cyclists who have occasion at any time to use the public highways at night to equip themselves with at least the required reflector on a white background and, if possible, with a working rear light.

Another matter of domestic concern so far as my constituency is concerned is the proper distribution of Garda stations. In Cork, our Garda stations are situated so close together that one could visit all the city stations within half-an-hour. I should like to take the Minister on an imaginary tour of Cork, entering the city from the Glanmire terminus area, which is the usual road from Dublin. The first station the Minister will meet is the Lower Glanmire Road station, immediately outside the railway terminus. Proceeding 150 yards or so, he comes to MacCurtain Street station, the principal station for the north side. Then, crossing two bridges, he comes to Union Quay, the principal station for the south side, which is about 300 yards away. 200 or 300 yards further on is the Old Blackroad Road station and within five minutes walk is Barrack Street station. From Barrack Street to the Shandon Street station is only another ten minutes and from Shandon Street to Watercourse Road another five minutes, and he will have passed in the heart of the city the Bridewell, which is another of the major Garda stations. St. Luke's is only three or four minutes' walk from the Lower Glanmire Road station and the Minister will then have completed a circuit of the Garda stations within the city inside half-an-hour.

Cork, like Dublin, is a rapidly growing city and people have occasion to use the facilities offered by the Garda stations frequently, but with modern transport, there is no reason why these stations should be so closely situated. Many of these stations are in buildings which are not entirely suitable and there is no reason why they should not be pushed out a little towards the suburbs. Everybody knows—I have adverted to it often here—that the Cork borough boundary encloses a very restricted area, having regard to the general size of the city and suburbs, and for that reason, with the city growing as it is and the real city being so restricted an area, having regard to the over-all size of it, there is every need for a revision of the situation of these Garda barracks.

Another matter to which I have referred on a number of occasions is the question of free legal aid for poor persons who are charged with indictable offences. When I last spoke on this matter, I referred to the difficulty the poor person has in understanding a long and involved indictment. One criminal act is often represented on an indictment sheet as five, six and even more indictable charges. There are various degrees of criminality attaching to the different charges set out and it might be possible that, if a person were properly represented, he might not have to plead guilty, parrot-like, to the charges as read out, and, there being different degrees of criminality, there are often different degrees of punishment. Generally speaking, judges of the Circuit Court have the greatest sympathy with those people who are not properly represented. They are given every opportunity, but it would be more satisfactory to the public conscience if we were sure these people were represented, though we know they would be fairly and properly treated by the presiding judges.

In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to make some reference, when winding up the debate, to the position regarding legal reform. I read a rather ill-advised leader in the Irish Independent yesterday on the Minister's Adoption Bill, which is coming before the Dáil in the next few days. I am not going to refer to it beyond saying that though some of the material in the leader was ill-advised, they nevertheless did advert to the fact that apart from the necessity for legal adoption there is necessity for legal reform in very many instances in our legal code. I hope the Minister will have regard to that and if the Law Reform Committee is still alive I hope it will be gingered up a little so that we may see some of its work being put into effect.

Mr. Blowick

When the Minister for Justice gives us a picture of peace from the records of his Department, it is a matter for which we should be thankful and on which we should congratulate ourselves. It is a great indication of the general trend all over the country. I am glad to see such an era of peace, such a decline in general delinquency and crime; and I am glad to note that the work of the last three and a half years of the inter-Party Government is bearing fruit now, that the prosperity and peace we brought the country is continuing and I hope that nothing will arise to interfere with it.

In regard to recruiting for the Garda Síochána, I know one case and possibly there are others where holders of the Fáinne, otherwise apparently fully qualified, have been rejected as recruits. That is setting a bad example. As far as I understand, they are perfectly qualified in every other way as regards age, measurements and general suitability. The cases brought to my notice may have been isolated ones but I believe that at least in one case, which I can give the Minister, something has gone wrong and an injustice has been done.

With reference to the work of the Land Registry, I am aware that for the last four years a large number of vestings have been sent from the Land Commission to the Land Registry each year. Over the last four or five years, from 14,000 to 16,000 separate vestings have been sent down for first registration. I notice in the Book of Estimates that the staff has not been increased. The Minister would be wise to increase it as, from my remembrance of the work still left undone in the vesting of holdings, farms and allotments, I think approximately 50,000 to 55,000 remain to be done. Unless there is a radical change of policy, most of these will be dumped over to the Land Registry Office from the Land Commission in the next three, four or five years. The fact that these are not being dealt with, or that the staff is not sufficient to deal with them, is causing a certain amount of confusion and sometimes loss to people whose lands are in the transition stage.

Those who are acquiring building sites from people whose land is only regarded as a schedule number in the Land Registry Office and which has not been dealt with yet, are caused a lot of inconvenience because of the delay in getting a grant from the local authority or in the Department of Local Government as the case may be. I would like the Minister, when replying, to tell the House what number the Land Registry Office is in arrears as regards total vestings. He might also tell us whether he intends to increase the staff to get shut of the arrears. I can say from my experience in the Land Commission that it is not likely that the flood of vestings coming from the Land Commission for the next four, five or six years will be less than 12,000 to 14,000 per year—that is unless his colleague, the Minister for Lands, decides to leave certain parts of the 1931 Land Act in abeyance and divert some of the staff from vesting, which would be a step in the wrong direction.

I put down a question to the Minister for Lands, which the Minister for Justice answered to-day, in regard to another point. I have been aware for quite a while that though the Land Registry Office purports to register a person's property and to set out exactly the amount and its location, they fail signally in a very important matter. That matter is as to where a man's property begins or ends. A landowner down the country who may be selling land or buying land may find himself in a dispute with neighbours over fences or boundaries. Then he asks the Land Registry Office to send him a certified copy map of his folio showing the property he owns. He gets a portion of an Ordnance Survey sheet from them with a red line surrounding the property he is supposed to own. There is one serious omission, in that it does not take account of the fences.

The question I had to the Minister for Lands to-day deals with the sod fences usually used all over the country, the base of which in most cases is not less than six feet wide. The sod fence sitting on six feet of land very often is the cause of trouble or dispute between the parties who own the land on either side. The Land Registry Office should describe it in one short sentence in the folio, setting out that the land the subject of that folio, runs to the centre of the fences on all four sides or runs to the inside or outside of the fences. The folio should contain some definite description also as to where the particular holding begins or ends. It does not do any such thing and that is a serious flaw in the registration of property.

After all, the Land Registry Office is a very important State office which purports to set out or define a man's property and while it does it in a general way it certainly does not do so particularly enough in any single case. I would ask the Minister to take the matter up with the legal advisers of his Department and to consult with the legal advisers of the Department of Lands and of the Land Registry Office in order to settle the matter because there is a very serious gap there. It has been the cause of very costly litigation up and down the country and one short sentence typed into the folio in each case would set out whether a man owned the ground on which the fence stood, half of it or none of it. That is not too much to ask the Minister to do.

Two Departments are involved, the Department of Lands and the Land Registry Office. The Minister may say that it is the fault of the Land Commission when an exact boundary is not set out but it is the Land Registry Office which deals with the matter finally and it is to that office that the owner of registered property must apply in order to find out what that property is. It is on the Land Registry Office that the final responsibility rests and having accepted the responsibility of defining and certifiying a man's property they should do it to the limit and define where the property begins and ends.

Mr. Davin

Like prominent people who profess to be experts in the administration of the law, particularly the traffic laws—we all do it from time to time—I am convinced that the Minister and the Government would be fully justified in authorising a considerable increase in the personnel of the Garda. If I had the power or right— I have neither one nor the other—to choose whether the available money should be spent on increasing our national Defence Force or our Garda force I would certainly vote under existing circumstances for increased expenditure on the Garda. I would do that solely for the purpose of improving the traffic supervision.

I do not know who is actually responsible for the final decisions regarding the movement of traffic in big cities and towns, in Dublin City in particular. I have often wondered whether before such decisions are taken the prominent people who are responsible for the operation of our transport systems are consulted in any way or whether their views are taken into consideration. I have had experience of supervising a fairly big section of a transport system which operates in this city and I have the idea from observation and experience—so it is not a new one—that the people responsible for fixing parking places and the changing of traffic regulations and routes have no regard for the requirements of those who own or operate horse-drawn vehicles. I think that the people who make decisions on the operation of our traffic laws are purely motor-minded people who do not bother very much about the needs of those who must make a livelihood from horse-drawn vehicles.

I wonder what these people would think and do if we had another world war—God forbid that we should have one. There are people in this country at the present time, owners of private motor cars, who would drive their motor cars up the stairs to bed if they had the room, the space and the opportunity. They are so lazy, so reluctant to walk, that they want to be landed from their beds in the morning to the place where they spend their daylight hours. It is bad for these individuals physically and, while I do not know what our doctor members would say, I would say that it is bad for them mentally as well. I am not blaming the Minister personally for this—far from it—but the Minister and his advisers should remember that there are less than 100,000 persons in the State who own motor cars and that the number of motor-driven vehicles using petrol, diesel oil or anything else, is 165,000. Are we to give priority to the owners of 165,000 private motor cars or other motor vehicles to the exclusion of the rights of farmers, who are the biggest ratepayers, of those who live by agriculture and of others who must depend on the horse?

Over the years we have boasted— since I was born—that we were the best country in the world for breeding horses. With all that, we started at the very top of the State and did away with the beautiful guard provided some years ago for the President and other people who get a guard and dispensed with the horses, the best horses in the world.

Mr. G. Boland

Do not blame us for that.

Mr. Davin

Now we have a motorised force which holds up the whole city whenever the President comes from Árus an Uachtaráin to the ProCathedral. That is by the way but it happened.

I would appeal to the Minister if he agrees with what I say to use his influence to see that those who drive horse-drawn vehicles and have to make a livelihood are considered in future when regulations regarding parking places are made or changed—and they are changed nearly as often as they are made. These people should have some rights to move around the city. If the Minister or his advisers consult the people responsible for transport in this city they will find a genuine grievance.

Horse-drawn vehicles are constantly held up and from my own experience it is not exceptional that a whole transport system is disorganised for a day. You decide to do something in the morning and you find that it has not been finished by night simply because the men driving the horsedrawn vehicles cannot get into certain streets because they have been allotted as parking places. These are streets which they must enter if the system is to operate efficiently. If it is the desire of these motor-minded administrators to do away with the horsedrawn vehicle and deny its rights to move about the city in the same way as motor vehicles, all right then let them confess it and take the consequences. I would like the Minister to convey these views to his advisers when he gets the opportunity. I am not manufacturing a grievance because I speak with considerable knowledge and experience.

I would like some information on the movement of bus traffic when the depot starts to operate in the place selected by Deputy Cowan near Amiens Street. Deputy Cowan boasted in this House— I am sorry if the Minister was not listening—that he and he only selected the site of this infamous bus depot close to Amiens Street station.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not relevant.

Mr. Davin

It is relevant because I want the Minister to ask his advisers if he does not know himself—he probably does know—what the position will be when that bus station is ready —I am taking it seriously now. Will traffic for the South move across O'Connell Bridge and hold up traffic for the best portion of the day or will it be diverted up the North Circular Road adding a couple of miles to the journey of buses to Limerick, Cork, Waterford and every other part of the South?

I am putting that as a serious query to the Minister, but not for the purpose of causing him any embarrassment. Apparently, he agrees with Deputy Cowan that this bus depot is in the proper place and I am sure that, with the present governmental conditions, he will not take the risk of losing the goodwill of Deputy Cowan in this matter anyway. It will create a problem and I think this is a pertinent question, because I presume that before we discuss the Estimate for this Department 12 months hence the depot will be in full operation and then we will have some experience of the matter. At any rate, the Minister can foresee that certain difficult problems are bound to arise and my question is one which he might discuss with some of his advisers, if he cannot answer it at the moment.

I agree with those who advocate a far more strict test in regard to the issue of drivers' licences for motor vehicles. As far as I know, there is not any test at all. If a person pays a fee, he can get a licence whether he applies in person or not. I am sure the Minister, from his experience and from the reports he has, will agree that there should be a more strict test of the drivers of motor vehicles. If we had a stricter test, I believe that many of the accidents which occurred last year and in previous years could have been avoided.

I met a deputation recently with representatives of other Parties in this House from certain temperance organisations. I would be hypocritical if I misled anybody into believing that I was a temperance advocate. At any rate, I listened attentively to the very distinguished members of this deputation and their main cause for asking representatives of different groups to meet them was their desire to have certain amendments made in the existing traffic laws to deal with the tremendous increase in recent times in the number of charges brought against citizens for being drunk while driving motor vehicles. They were particularly anxious to meet the Minister. I do not know whether the Minister has met them in the last few weeks, but I would advise him to meet that deputation. I am not going to take up the time of the House in conveying to him what was conveyed to us by that very representative deputation of men and women, speaking not alone for one temperance association, but for a group of associations. I told them that I did not agree with some of the proposals put forward and, therefore, they were under no delusion as far as I am concerned.

I agree, however, that there is a case, based on the experience of the last few years, for looking into the question of the punishment inflicted on persons convicted of being drunk while driving motor vehicles. The drunken driver is a menace to the sober driver. It is generally the sober driver who pays the penalty when an accident takes place. Whatever is the reason, the drunken driver generally escapes, but the sober driver in the other car has often to be taken to hospital and, unfortunately, in some cases loses his life as a result of an accident caused by a careless drunken driver. There is a good deal of comment upon the variation in the type of punishment inflicted upon such people when found guilty. A heavy fine is inflicted upon some of them which the justice knows perfectly well they are able to pay. In some cases, the licence is suspended as well. But the person who cannot pay a heavy fine, and the justice and the people responsible for the prosecution know that, is not fined. He is sent to Mountjoy for a month or two months.

I appeal to the Minister to look into this matter from the point of view of endeavouring, through the administration, to standardise the type of punishment meted out to people who are found to be drunk while driving a motor vehicle. There is a good deal of justification for that. I listened attentively and sympathetically on a number of occasions. I cannot understand why it is that one justice imposes a fine of £20 or £50 on a person who is fairly well able to pay, while another person——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the justices themselves.

Mr. Davin

I agree. I think the Minister understands what I mean and I shall not develop the matter further except to say that, if the Minister has any spare time, he would be well advised to receive the members of that deputation which recently waited upon the representatives of all Parties in this House and hear what they have to say because they can put the matter better and more forcibly than I can.

With regard to the Garda Síochána, I have no complaint to make. I do not believe in using this House for the purpose of making complaints in regard to the general administration of the Garda. I do not think I have ever used this House for that purpose. But if I have, it was only on a very few occasions during a membership of close on 30 years. I have always made any representations I have had to make either to the Commissioner or to the Minister responsible for the time being in regard to matters of that kind. There are, however, matters pertinent to the administration and working of the Garda which can be raised and have been rightly raised in debates of this kind.

I do not know how long it is since the rent allowance paid to Gardaí was originally fixed or how often it has been reviewed. I can assure the Minister, however, that there is a very strong case for the revision of the allowance given to Gardaí, even those who live in villages and towns in the country districts. The Minister has the advantage of being a representative for a rural constituency for a long period and he knows that the cost of housing accommodation and of houses built by local authorities and let by them has considerably increased. I know of cases in my constituency where Gardaí were given houses built by a local authority in a small town with a population of 1,200. The Gardaí, and rightly so, were compelled to pay the full economic rent. Nobody can make the case that a Garda should not pay the economic rent as he is given a rent allowance to help him to pay the rent or a portion of the rent. In this town, the economic rent, with the rates added, is 26/- per week. In another town, where Gardaí have been given houses by the local authority and which is a town commission area the rent fixed is 32/6, plus rates. I do not think the rent allowance given to Gardaí is sufficient to meet these very high rents. As time goes on, the rents will probably be higher because the cost of building those houses continues to go up. Therefore, the Gardaí who were allocated such houses by local authorities in recent times have to pay rents far in excess of the small rent allowance which they are given as a condition of service. I hope the Minister will look into that matter.

I would like the Minister also to inquire as to the cause of the delay in starting to build Garda barracks in some towns, for instance, Mountrath, which is in my constituency, where a decision was taken some years ago to provide a new Garda barracks. Does not the Minister, and everybody else, know that the cost of building continues to go up and that material is not available in the same quantity as it was two or three years ago? It is better to start now—better late than never. There is another case of a place not very far from here in which there was an expenditure of tens of thousands of pounds involved and in which the delay in commencing building operations has caused serious loss. The cost to-day is five times what it was estimated to be and what it would have been if the work had started four or five years ago. At any rate, do not delay any longer in commencing to build and complete these barracks in places where the Department has already sanctioned their provision. There is more than one case of that kind and the matter has been raised in the House on many occasions. If the Minister cannot reply offhand—I did not give him any notice—I hope he will convey what I have suggested to the proper quarter.

Another matter has been the cause of complaint in my constituency. I cannot blame the Gardaí for this. It is the refusal of members of the Gardaí, in exceptional circumstances, after normal working hours, to allow their telephone to be used to convey messages from local people who are looking for a doctor. There should be no red-tape regulation put into operation and, if there is one in operation, it should be removed so as not to prevent the sergeant or whoever is in charge of a Garda barracks from allowing persons in the locality to use the telephone to communicate with a local doctor on an urgent matter. I certainly would not shake hands with the sergeant or the Garda who would refuse in such circumstances to convey a message at the request of local people. If there is any such regulation in operation it should be removed so far as it applies to rural areas where there is no ordinary telephone service available after normal working hours.

Mr. Boland

There is no regulation like that at all.

Mr. Davin

That makes it worse.

Mr. Boland

I will inquire into it but I do not think there is any such regulation.

Mr. Davin

I would not mention the matter except that it has come to my notice. In conclusion, I would like to ask the Minister whether he is himself satisfied that there is proper hospital treatment provided, especially in the Dublin area, for Gardaí who become ill. It is over a year ago now that I was called to see certain Gardaí and I certainly was horrified by the conditions under which they were housed in a place convenient to the depot. I talked with the then Minister for Health about the matter and I understand that proposals were under consideration for the better treatment of Gardaí who were ill and had to go to hospital. There was limited accommodation in the place but I certainly would not congratulate the people who were responsible for the kind of conditions under which I found members of the Garda in what was called a hospital. It certainly was not a modern hospital so far as the accommodation or treatment was concerned.

I would like to know if the Minister is satisfied that the conditions prevailing in regard to this matter are satisfactory. I do not raise any matters deliberately for the purpose of embarrassing the Minister because he brought with this Estimate a good healthy report from the point of view of the country as a whole. I do not want to upset him or his responsible advisers by making the position any worse than it really is and I do not want to make it worse than the Minister said it was.

Mr. Byrne

I will not delay the House because most of the things I wish to say have already been said and there is no use indulging in repetition. I want to congratulate the Minister on the continued efficiency of the Gardaí and on securing 300 recruits for the Garda Síochána. My principal reason for rising is to express the hope that the time of some of the new Gardaí will be devoted to a new service of wardens for children attending school. As regards watching children going to school in big numbers or watching them coming out at lunch hour, I am sure members of the House will agree that there is a need and an urgent need for a new warden service to protect the children of the schools especially in the city areas. There are at least three schools in Dublin City where there are as many as 2,000 children attending. To see the children flocking out and flocking inwards and taking the risks that children take, especially boys of 12 years of age or so, who will not look to the right or left, one realises the danger. Even if they see a car at a distance the children with more daring than the others will make up their minds that they can beat the car and get across the road. In some parts of England and in America I have seen police protecting children leaving school. Now that we have these 300 recruits it should be part of their training to protect children going to and from school. There are various times during the day when they are required. The children go to school at half-past nine. That is one time they should be there. They are met by their mothers leaving school at 12.30; their mothers must bring them back to school at 2.30 and meet them coming out at 4 o'clock. This happens because there is no adequate protection for the children.

Can you imagine a housewife, with three or four children, leaving the household four times a day just to see, and very properly to see, that her child crosses the road in safety? I hold that is a matter for the Government and maybe not altogether for the Government as for the local and public authorities who would have to get full power to act from the Minister's Department. Legislation of some kind and co-operation between the local authorities, the schoolchildren and the Gardaí are earnestly desired in Dublin City and County at the present moment. My principal reason for rising in my place is to press that point home and to express the hope that the Minister will investigate the matter.

I wish to join with the other members in congratulating the Minister on the efficiency generally of the Gardaí. The local traffic superintendent here has a very difficult job to do. He has, I understand, a local inspector on the north side and an inspector on the south side and they are doing splendid work. I want to express my admiration for the Gardaí on O'Connell Bridge. It is a treat to watch them directing six lines of traffic at the one time.

I would like to put another point to the Minister. I would ask him to give serious thought to reducing the speed limit in the new built-up areas, such as Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Cabra and Drimnagh. In these areas, I feel that 20 miles per hour should be sufficient speed for motor cars or for vans delivering goods. The roads in these areas are short, and the children are numerous. If people had not four children they would not have got a house. The children can be seen dashing across the roads, not looking to the right or to the left. However, I hope that, due to the educational system, they will learn to look to the right and to the left, and be trained in the method of protecting themselves. The narrow roads in those built-up areas are not suitable at all for heavy traffic and I do not think that cars and motor vans should be allowed to travel them at a speed of 30 or 40 miles an hour.

Some reference has been made to cyclists. I would ask my colleagues in the House not to be too hard on cyclists; they have their rights. The bicycle is the workman's and the girl's method of getting to and from work. They have to travel long distances, right across the city, say from Fairview to the top of Grafton Street, and from the top of Grafton Street back again to Fairview. I think a little coaxing would be a better method than any other to adopt towards cyclists. We must remember that the person who rides a bicycle is not in any way assisted by mechanical power such as diesel oil or petrol, but has to use his own energy. Cyclists ought to get all the protection we can give them. In my view, the red light on the rear of a bicycle is far more effective and far more necessary than a front light. It is far more necessary in the interest of the cyclist himself, and it would be well if he saw that he had on his bicycle the red light, or the reflector.

I am a member of the Traffic Committee of the Dublin Corporation, which is presided over by an enterprising young man, by name, Councillor Fred Mullen. He is very enthusiastic and has made many suggestions to the authorities about the traffic regulations and parking conditions. I do not really know what can be done about the parking of cars in Dublin. I feel the Government will have to take the matter in hands and give help and advice and, if necessary, substantial grants to the municipal authority in order to procure suitable parking places. People living within a stone's throw of the city insist on bringing in their cars to the very heart of the city. At the present moment I know of no parking place within a mile of Nelson's Pillar, whether one goes north, south, east or west of that monument. I do not know what can be done about that position.

Deputy Davin emphasised the point which I also have on my list, and that is in regard to married Gardaí. We have come across married Gardaí in this city who have two or three children and who are in need of housing accommodation. The economic rent of a three-roomed house with a kitchen is 32/-. They are not always asked to pay the economic rent, but a rent of 25/- per week is asked for and paid by most Gardaí. The rent allowance ought to be increased in accordance with the rent they have to pay to-day, which is more than the rent paid 25 years ago. A Garda who is moved to Dublin from the country and who has two or three children finds it impossible to get a two-roomed flat for less than 45/- per week. I feel that the Government should make some effort to build houses for the Gardaí and to let them to the force at a fair rent. Something substantial should be added to the rent allowance at present allowed to the Gardaí, or some inducement should be given to them to build their own houses.

I have nothing further to add only to congratulate the Minister and the Commissioner of the Gardaí on the efficiency of the men. Their courtesy is talked about everywhere, and we hope that they will continue to live up to that standard.

To return to the subject of parking cars, a summons should not be issued for the first trifling offence. The offender should get a caution label informing him that he has overstayed his time. A "Do not do it again" caution would be sufficient for the time being.

Mr. Blaney

As the Minister is probably aware, there is a certain amount of discontent and dissatisfaction in the Carrigart district of my constituency. That dissatisfaction and discontent has arisen because of the transfer, some time ago, of a Garda sergeant who had been stationed there. That Garda sergeant who came to Carrigart approximately at the time of the advent of the Coalition Government came there to replace his brother who had been a sergeant in the area and who had died. He was sent to Carrigart station more or less on compassionate grounds—because of the fact that his brother had left a young widow and family.

After about a year in the station, a certain element in the district discovered that this man was not going to be led by their dictates. I say solemnly and in all good faith, irrespective of what arguments may be put forward from the Department's point of view, that this man was changed for no other reason than the fact that a certain element in the district did not agree with him, could not get him to do as they wished and used political pressure to have him removed. In the first instance, that was a grave injustice to this particular man. However, what is of far greater importance in the long run is the fact that the circumstances surrounding that case are well known not only to the people in the Carrigart district, to the people in certain parts of my constituency, but to the Gardaí throughout the length and breadth of the Twenty-Six Counties. Any member of the force succeeding that man in this district or succeeding a man in any other district may say to himself: "If I do my duty and if, in doing that duty, I come up against certain elements that do not like the way I do it, I am going to be removed from my station." Is it not a fact then that such a person, in his own interest, will say: "Why should I shove out my neck or chin in doing my duty if I am going to be changed?" That is certainly what happened in Carrigart. I ask the Minister to deny here in the House in his reply that that man was really shifted on political grounds and due to political pressure only. If political pressure was not brought to bear on the case, will the Minister point out the reason why the man was transferred, to bolster up the case of the Department? The man who was changed had served in the force for 20 years and had not a black mark on his record for that period. Why then should he have been shifted, and, in addition to that, why should he have been shifted from a Gaeltacht area to a non-Gaeltacht area resulting in a loss to him of 7½ per cent. in his pay?

These facts were brought before the previous Minister. He was well aware of them and also of the dissatisfaction in that particular Garda district because he received a signed petition in that connection from people of all creeds, classes and political affiliations. Eighty-seven per cent. of the total electorate in that particular area signed the petition asking that that sergeant be left where he was. Despite that petition, the sergeant was changed and very much to his own disadvantage from a financial point of view. I believe that all the facts were not presented to the Commissioner and that all the facts are not to be found in the Department's files. That is the only reason that I can think of why that man should ever have been changed, irrespective of what Minister was in office.

In order to elucidate the full facts, I think there is only one course open to the present Minister, namely, to have a sworn inquiry into this case and to have the full facts placed on the Table of this House. With that plea, I leave this matter to the Minister and ask him to deal with it if possible in that manner because it is the only way in which we can get full satisfaction and so clear the name of this particular sergeant and give back to all concerned in the welfare of the Gardaí and the keeping of law and order in this country a certain amount of the faith which has been shattered in it as a result of this transaction.

I want to deal now with the question of the recruitment of Gardaí. This is a matter which may have been mentioned by a few people in the House to-day but it will be mentioned by many Deputies within the next few days. A few Deputies with whom I was speaking this afternoon all have the same story as myself. It was only to-day or yesterday that we really learned the facts in connection with certain people who have been turned down and have not been allowed to go forward for the examination. I have one particular person in mind at the moment; there are a number of others but I will quote one case. The young man is approximately six feet high, chest measurement about 40 inches or 41 inches. He has had four years' secondary education. He was a member of the L.D.F. and later of the F.C.A. He is a native Irish speaker and he complies with the age limit. That young man, who has a clean sheet, has been informed in the past few days that he is not eligible for the Guards. His case is only one typical example of a number of cases of which I am aware and of a number of cases of which I have been made aware by Deputies from other constituencies. What method is adopted in the recruitment of the Guards? At what stage is it decided that a young man is not suitable or eligible and on whose recommendation is the application of that young man, who apparently is eligible in every way, thrown out?

Mr. Hickey

Was he able to go for an examination at all?

Mr. Blaney

He is not being allowed to go for examination. If he were, I should be quite satisfied to let him stand or fall by that examination.

Mr. Hickey

I have a case in mind, too.

Mr. Blaney

This young man will not have a chance because he is not allowed to go forward for the examination. This is a typical example of what is happening in my own area and, as I have learned this afternoon, in many other areas too. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to this matter before it reaches a stage where nothing can be done. I ask him to let this young man go forward for examination—a young man who is, apparently, well equipped to be a Garda. These young men should at least be given the opportunity of sitting for the examination. If they are not successful at the examination nobody can have any quibble with the Minister afterwards. It is essential that the Minister should look into this matter so that there will not be this dissatisfaction over the recruitment of Gardaí.

Mr. Finan

Deputy Blaney has referred to one of the points which I intended to raise. I think his experience is common to many Deputies of this House. From what was brought to my notice over the week-end I had come to the conclusion that recruitment for the Gardaí had been abandoned. A goodish number of young men from my area were measured and fulfilled the requirements in that regard. Subsequently they received a communication similar to that to which Deputy Blaney has referred. Every single one that I know of in my part of the county has had that experience. It is difficult to understand the reason. If a man has been measured and found to fulfil all the requirements, it is difficult to understand why he should be curtly informed that he will not be called for examination. They regret to inform him that they do not need him. I think that the people and, in particular, the candidates are entitled to know who made that decision. I am not saying that anyone has made a wrong decision but I think that the candidates are entitled to some explanation as to why that decision was made. Deputy Blaney has said all I want to say in that respect and I shall not delay the House any further on that matter.

I want to refer now to something which I think is causing a lot of annoyance in the Garda Síochána. It would appear that a certain number of young men in the force married before they had completed the requisite period of service. In consequence of having violated that regulation, their rent allowance has been withheld. That is rather a childish thing to do. I do not think that the regulation about the marriage of members of the Garda Síochána was ever taken very seriously. After all, everybody in this country says that what we really need are early marriages. Late marriages are blamed for the low population. Surely it is ridiculous to penalise a man, whether he be in the Garda Síochána or in any other job, because he takes unto himself a wife? In my opinion, marriage is a thing that should be encouraged. If a member of the Garda Síochána feels that he is in a financial position to support a wife, I do not think any regulation should stand in his way. We read in our newspapers last year that a test case was brought into court. A member of the Garda Síochána attempted to recover the rent that had been withheld because he married too soon, according to the Department. I think the only defence of the Department was the Statute of Limitation. Some rather scathing remarks were made by the gentleman on the Bench in reference to that case. I am pretty sure that there are not very many of those cases and I am quite certain that the amount of money involved is very small. I ask the Minister to look into the matter and see that justice is done to these people from whom that money has been withheld. I think it is nearly time to abandon that rule for which there does not appear to be any good reason. I am aware that it operated in the force that preceded the Garda Síochána but different circumstances and different conditions obtained then. I think it is time to abandon that rule. I would, therefore, seriously ask the Minister to review cases where rent allowances have been withheld from those men.

Another point to which I would like to refer is the fact that, as everybody knows, during the emergency, members of the Garda Síochána rendered very valuable work in the organisation of the L.D.F. and of the Defence Forces generally. So far as I know, they have not got any recognition from the State for such work. Members of the Defence Forces have received due recognition for their activities during that time but members of the Garda Síochána, who devoted a lot of labour and a lot of time to the very important work which they were assigned, have got no acknowledgment whatever for it. I think that if they were given either a gratuity, a medal, a ribbon or something that would encourage them, should similar circumstances arise in the future, they would be more inclined to put their heart into the work.

I want to say in conclusion that the experience of people in my county has not been that referred to by Deputy Davin with regard to the use of the telephone in a barracks. I think everybody in my county will testify that the Guards are anxious to facilitate the people in case of sick calls or during any emergency, when the use of the ordinary telephone is not available. There is no "grouse" at all in my area in regard to that matter and the people fully appreciate the kindness of the Gardaí in such circumstances.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I hope my remarks on this Estimate will not be too rambling or disconnected. I did not know that the Estimate was to come up for discussion to-day, and there are many matters which I should like to raise upon it but unfortunately I am not prepared to do so now. The Minister will, therefore, forgive me if I make what can be regarded only as impromptu remarks on two matters of considerable importance to the country. The first has reference to the jurisdiction of the District Court at the present time. Those who have even a small knowledge of the administration of law in this country know that the limits of jurisdiction in the District Court are very low being £10 in tort and £25 in contract. The cost of living, to which reference is so often made in this Assembly, affects litigation as well as everything else because £25 represented far more 20 or 30 years ago when these regulations were first laid down than it represents at present. Furthermore, the cost of litigation in the Circuit Courts, appears to have increased a great deal in the course of that time. Indeed I would go so far as to say that many people particularly in the West of Ireland and the poorer parts of the country are denied recourse to litigation because the Circuit Court is far too expensive a court for the purpose of threshing out their grievances. Even in simple matters, costs on one side alone may run up to £80, £90 or £100 so that the unfortunate person who happens to lose the action will have to face two sets of costs probably running into the region of £140 or £150. I think it will be agreed that the machinery in operation in the District Court is quite adequate to deal with many of the minor grievances that now find their way into the Circuit Court. The District Court has no jurisdiction whatever in matters of title, and where a question of title arises in the District Court, the case has immediately to be struck out and adjourned for hearing at the Circuit Court.

Mr. Boland

May I point out, with all respect to the Deputy who, of course, is new to the House, that this is really a matter of advocating legislation? If other Deputies were to do likewise, we should be all out of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is advocating increased jurisdiction for the Circuit Court which is out of order since it would require fresh legislation. Questions of administration only may be discussed on an Estimate.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I am certainly advocating legislation in this matter. The other matter to which I was going to refer was the law of intestate succession but since I would also be advocating fresh legislation in any remarks I would have to make on that subject, I shall have to reserve my comments for a more appropriate occasion. That leaves me without very much ammunition to go on with, because these were the two matters of vital importance which I desired to bring before the House. One thing that struck me in the course of Deputy Byrne's references to traffic regulations was that there is one regulation which ought to be made immediately in this country, as it might have the result of making it easier for judges and justices to decide traffic cases. We should bring our regulations into line with those in other countries by making it obligatory on motorists, or cyclists for that matter, coming along a by-road and approaching a major road, on seeing the sign "Major Road Ahead" not just to slow up but to come to a dead stop, preferably at a white line drawn across the entry to the major road. One of the greatest difficulties that confront justices and judges at present is the answer to the question: "Did you blow your horn?" Very often, in my opinion, there has been a miscarriage of justice by reason of the fact that the motorist using the major road had to answer "No" to that question.

I do feel that if a motorist is forced by law to blow his horn every time he is approaching a by-road when travelling along a major road—and he apparently ought to, according to the decisions of the courts in this country— then he would have to put his finger to the horn at the very commencement of his journey and he could not take it off until he had come to the end of his journey. A great deal of what I think is unnecessary trouble arises from the fact that there is not a definite ruling that a person coming out of a minor road on to a major road is not at present bound to come to a stop before entering on the main road. He is, of course, supposed to exercise care as well as the person using the major road, but I think that the degree of care which the law imposes on him should be greater than the degree of care which it casts on the person using the major road and that he should be obliged to come to a stop, as he is in other countries, before he is allowed to travel on the major road. A corollary to that would be that the person travelling on the major road would not have to continue blowing his horn incessantly, in order to protect himself against an adverse decision in court, should an accident occur, or to protect himself against an unfavourable answer to the question which I have already mentioned, which answer might involve him in an adverse decision both in the criminal proceedings in the District Court and, what is far more important, in a large civil claim in the High Court later on.

Mr. McGrath

I would like to support the previous speakers who have addressed themselves to the method of recruitment to the Garda Síochána. I have here a letter that an applicant received from the Civil Service Commissioners:—

"With reference to your application for admission to the Garda Síochána, I am directed by the Commissioner to inform you that you have not been selected for the examination to be conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners.

I am to add that the Commissioner cannot undertake to enter into any further correspondence on this subject."

Now the applicant to whom that letter was sent fulfilled all the requirements and had excellent references from his parish priest and other responsible people. I would like to know who decided he was not qualified to sit for the examination. In the rural areas the blame in a case like this is laid on the shoulders of the local sergeant. If the local sergeant has no say in the matter, I think that should be explained.

Mr. Blowick

It ought to be the local T.D.

Mr. Boland

The T.D.s on this side do not seem to have much influence. We hear plenty of complaints on this side about the T.D.s.

Mr. Blowick

Having no influence?

Mr. Boland

It looks like that.

Mr. Blowick

I do not know when that happened.

Mr. McGrath

If the local sergeant did not disqualify this man, I think that should be explicitly stated because he is at present getting blamed for it. On the other hand, if he is responsible for this applicant being turned down I think it is wrong that he should be in a position to decide whether or not a man is qualified. I think the applicant should be permitted to sit for the examination if he has reached the standard physical requirements and if he has references from responsible people, even if they are T.D.s. I appeal to the Minister to look into this matter because it would seem to be a rather general complaint.

I would also like to draw the Minister's attention to the location of Garda barracks in Cork City. I had a question down in relation to this some months ago and I was told then that it would be inquired into. Extensive housing development has taken place outside the City of Cork and it seems ridiculous to have Garda barracks situated within a couple of hundred yards of one another in the centre of the city at Union Quay, Old Blackrock Road, MacCurtain Street, Watercourse Road, Barrack Street, and so on, while built-up areas like Gurranebraher, Spanglehill and Turner's Cross have no Garda station in their vicinity at all. I think housing development has proceeded far enough now in these new areas to enable the Minister to decide where new barracks should be situated. These barracks are badly needed as is borne out by the cases appearing in the local courts.

I support the claim made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government on a couple of occasions for the establishment of the High Court in Cork. Litigants who are compelled to travel from all over Munster to Dublin to attend the High Court here undergo very heavy expense. I can see no justification at all for that. We hear a good deal about decentralisation and I think this suggestion would be a move in the right direction. It could be done with very little expense and it might compel some of our senior counsel to leave Dublin on occasions. We have a good many of them here in the House and it might be no harm if they had the opportunity of seeing other parts of the country besides Dublin.

With regard to the complaints made about the Gardaí not permitting people to use their telephone in case of emergency or sickness, we have had no such experience in Cork. The Gardaí are most courteous there and are always ready to offer the facilities afforded by their phone to anyone who may require them.

Mr. McMenamin

I think the Minister can feel quite happy with some of the speeches made here this evening but I do not think he can be completely happy in relation to all of them. I think the situation is, comparatively speaking, satisfactory in relation to major crime but there has been one remarkable change over the last 50 years. I am sure it is a change that disturbs the Minister and disturbs anyone who is concerned with development generally. The very remarkable change to which I refer is the growth in what is termed juvenile delinquency or juvenile crime.

Hitherto, in the history of crime we had a hard core of criminals, each group within that hard core committing a particular type of offence. When an offence was committed, therefore, it was only a question of running a rule over the group of criminals known to commit that particular type of offence and then by a process of elimination finding out the particular individual or individuals guilty of the particular offence.

We are now faced with a much more serious new development not in relation to a hard core of criminals and serious crime but in relation to juvenile crime. This is a matter to which the House and those generally concerned must address their attention. I may be accused of moralising but I am quite indifferent to that accusation. There is a moral question involved and I am talking now only as a layman and from a layman's point of view. I do not think it would be fair to leave the Minister in the position, or whoever will occupy his post in the future, of being saddled with responsibility for this serious condition of affairs five or six years hence without giving him now the benefit of one's help and one's opinions in relation to the treatment of this development.

This is a serious problem for the Minister and I can see that he will have difficulty in taking effective action. I may be accused of being censorious. Again, I am indifferent. I merely give the Minister my opinion in good faith in order to be of any assistance that I can be to him. It is difficult to put one's finger right away on the cause of the rapid development of juvenile crime. It is difficult to say that any one particular factor is the cause of it. Indeed, I think there are a number of factors involved, but I think we can say there are two main causes and the first of those is lack of parental control.

The lack of parental control is, in my opinion, the overriding and governing factor in this dénouement. I am not here to lecture the parents of this country. I reared a family myself, and I did it mainly within the law, whatever way I did it. I wish to state categorically that, in my opinion, the main contributory cause to the alarming development of juvenile crime is the lack of parental control. We have reached the stage now when, apparently, anybody's child, except one's own, can do wrong, but your own pet lambs never can do anything wrong. They are always right, and, of course, nobody must make the allegation against them that they did wrong. Nobody must correct them in any way for doing wrong. We have reached the stage now when this thing has passed on to all our educational establishments in which the teachers must not enforce any sort of ordinary discipline. That, roughly in outline, is the picture. It is an alarming one. In very many schools now, a condition of chaos obtains due to the restrictions imposed on teachers by the parents of the children attending them.

Anybody, with any sense of moral obligation, knows that even at school children must be disciplined. The first place to discipline them is the home, and the second place is the school. If it is not done in these two places, then it is going to be just a pity for the society in which that generation is brought up. I suppose it is quite useless for us here to begin lecturing parents as to how they are to approach the discharge of their moral obligations to their children. I certainly am courageous enough to state it here, and they can pass whatever judgment they like on what I say. They do not exercise any control themselves, and they will not allow the teachers in the schools to exercise control. Their children are allowed to run about at all hours of the day and night. Within the last few months, within a gunshot of where I live, the local post office was burgled on two occasions. That was done by juveniles. and the burglary occurred some time after midnight. Have we not there a glaring example, and a typical case, of this fact that the parents of those children grossly neglected their duty both to themselves and to the State with regard to the upbringing of their children? Apparently, parents now think that to enforce any sort of discipline on their own children is almost a crime. I understand that, if a teacher at school attempts to enforce discipline on a child for being grossly unruly and indisciplined, the parent arrives at the school door and delivers a regular barrage, an attack, on the teacher. I do not know, but I think I would like to have a law passed that where a teacher imposes moderate and reasonable discipline on a child in school that he should be protected from legal proceedings for so acting.

Now, this is really a serious matter. The second contributory factor—it has been referred to already in a sort of a passing way—is the picture-house. I think the pictures are a grave cause, and a contributory cause, of the prevalence of juvenile crime. I regret that. I think that some steps on national lines will have to be taken about that here, assuming that nobody else does it. We have our own way of life; we have to live our own lives, and we should have our own cultural standards. We should be quite indifferent as to what any outside country did, or was going to do, that is, provided we set high standards for ourselves. There can be no doubt whatever, as regards many of the pictures which are shown —not all of them of course—in which guns and all that sort of highwayism are demonstrated, that they can have a highly disastrous effect on child psychology.

Mr. Hickey

And in which even robberies are shown to them.

Mr. McMenamin

Yes, where guns are involved and in which crime of all kinds is involved, at least impliedly. This is a matter to which, I think, Deputy Hickey quite rightly referred to-day. In my opinion the Minister will have to take action. The point is that in all these cases in which youth is concerned, and in which youthful minds are susceptible to example, the thing to do, according to the old saying, is—nip it in the bud. I do not think that any picture should be allowed to be shown to children in which that kind of thing—guns, robberies or highwayism—is exhibited. It should be absolutely and irrevocably censored.

It is, perhaps, a regrettable thing to have to say that, but when one studies child psychology and discovers that youth is so susceptible to example of any kind, you must be always on your guard to guard them. Of course, it will be said that language of this kind is reactionary. It is not—very far from it. Children gradually grow up, step by step, to have no regard for anything or anybody, to have no regard for individuals or for authority, and to have no regard for property, particularly the property of others. That is really one of the regrettable things that flow from this.

Now perhaps I have said enough about it. There is the story of the fellow who took a girl out along the road for a walk. In the course of the journey he asked her: "Will you marry me?" She replied: "I will." He then closed up. They walked on for half an hour without a word from him, when she asked him: "Have you anything else to say?" He replied: "Perhaps I have said too much already." It may be the same with me with regard to juvenile crime Other matters have been referred to. A lot has been said about the Guards. The Gardaí are asked to do this, that and the other thing. I think men should be honest when they are so laudatory about this fine body of men. Have they considered at all the number of men in the average barracks throughout this country—a sergeant and two men or a sergeant and three men? They are asked to do this, that and the other thing. The most amusing suggestion of all was that they should be used to protect our inland fisheries. The Guards are supposed to look after crime proper and that is their primary duty. They have to enforce the Noxious Weeds Act. Why, I do not know, having regard to the number of agricultural inspectors in this country who could look after the country if they were used. The Guards have to look after scrub bulls. Why they should have to do this I do not know, but that work is pawned off on the Guards. They have to look after the old age pensioners, and for what reason I do not know. I understand that the old age pension books come to the local barracks and they have to be dealt with there. The Guards have to deal with tillage and agricultural statistics but why they should do that I do not know when we consider the number of agricultural inspectors there are in the country and the amount of money that is provided in the agricultural Estimate.

In a Garda station you have three men, one of whom is a barrack orderly. Another man is off for the day because he was barrack orderly the day before. There is, therefore, only one man left to look after crime, noxious weeds, scrub bulls, old age pensioners' books and all this paraphernalia. Is it not realised by the people in this House passing fishery laws that heavy rates are struck for bailiffs to protect the fisheries? There is an implication that the bailiffs are not discharging their duties. People should not come into this House and pull the wool down over our eyes. The Guards are paid money voted by this House for a particular purpose. Money is voted to another Department to allow conservators of fisheries to strike rates to pay bailiffs for protecting the fisheries. We are asked to require three men in a district to do that. I think we should at least display some intelligence in this matter.

This matter of school attendance is also a baby that has been passed on to the Guards. It is a very serious thing. Here, again, is an adjunct of the matter I spoke about earlier—the neglect of parents in the discharge of their moral duties to educate their children. There were 6,000 prosecutions last year. That is only a fleabite, because prosecutions are only brought in in the extreme cases. The teacher, of course, makes representations to the parents to send their children to school and the Guards do not want to take the most extreme action until the matter becomes chronic. These poor children have no hope or means of receiving education other than that they get until they are 14 years of age. How to solve that problem is another matter. It is all right to talk about it. It is all right to ask the Minister what he is going to do. Last year, there were 6,000 prosecutions under the School Attendance Act. I do not know what the Minister can do about it.

It is a question for parents. If we had to enlarge the Garda force to cope with all the real delinquents under this Act it would be an enormous task. I think it would be a good thing if heavier penalties were imposed on parents who deliberately neglect to send their children to school.

Deputy Davin is in a bad way about traffic in Dublin. I never like to pass a baby on to another man that I cannot handle myself. What can the Minister do about traffic and parking in the city?

Mr. Hickey

Hold the baby.

Mr. McMenamin

I myself have been asked about the matter repeatedly. I never attempted to attack the Minister for Justice in this connection. There is only one solution so far as I am concerned and that is to withdraw the hire-purchase system. That would help to reduce your parking problem.

Mr. Davin

That is revolutionary.

Mr. McMenamin

The Minister for Justice cannot do it. For the last 30 years motor development has taken place in this country and not one step has been taken in this city—I do not know about Cork—to make any provision for parking accommodation of cars. The streets of Dublin are completely congested, not by the traffic going to and fro, but by parked cars. It is almost impossible for people who want to pass and who have a right to pass along the thoroughfares to do so. What can the Minister do about it? He cannot make parking places for the cars. That is a matter for the corporation and they have fallen down on their job. I do not know whether Dublin Corporation will like that or not, but not one step has been taken to provide parking accommodation having regard to the enormous increase in the number of motors.

Mr. Davin

It is a good job Deputy Cowan is not listening to you.

Mr. McMenamin

I am not interested in Deputy Cowan. Deputy Davin may be.

Mr. Davin

He owns the Government and the corporation.

Mr. McMenamin

There is another matter I want to refer to before I sit down. I would rather not, but again one must not shirk one's duty. The matter to which I wish to refer concerns the Guards and the administration of the licensing laws. I received complaints—probably everybody in this House received them also—that the licensing laws are enforced against a number of licensed owners in a given town or towns and the law is not enforced against the owners of other licensed premises in the same town or towns.

Mr. Davin

That is an old story, is it not?

Mr. McMenamin

There is a beaver on it.

Mr. Boland

We have all heard about that.

Mr. McMenamin

Apart from the beavers, I think there are grounds for complaint. I think it would be a very good thing for the public and a good thing for the licensed owners if they had the common sense to close and keep closed their licensed premises during prohibited hours. Every other type of shop has to close and keep closed, and I think that as that is so the law should be enforced. Either that or it should be abolished.

I read about a remarkable case within the last month or so that took place in the City of Dublin. A boy of 16 years of age or under picked up a wallet from the driver of a milk van with whom he was engaged as a helper. The driver accidentally dropped it on the street and did not notice it falling. The lad picked it up. It contained £14 or £16. That night, some time after 12 midnight, he was found with others on licensed premises spending the money. In the first place, it was during prohibited hours. Secondly, a boy of 16 years or under was on the premises, which was wretchedly bad in itself, and thirdly, he was spending money that he had stolen. That is an example of what it is to carry on illicit trading.

The Guards should be active in the enforcement of the licensing laws. I shall not attempt to make any such charge that they would administer these laws partially against any particular person. I would not say that at all. The example I have given is a shocking case. I wonder to what extent the Minister has information as to the tendency of the owners of licensed houses to permit such breaches of the law. I know that no decent man would do it, but there are always black sheep. I suppose even amongst saints there would be black sheep. It is shocking to read a case of a boy of 16 or under being on licensed premises after midnight, spending money that he had stolen during the day from his co-employee. That is what can flow from carrying on illicit trade, selling drink during prohibited hours, bringing disgrace on respectable fellowtraders.

The House and the country can congratulate the Minister on the condition in the country with regard to general crime. The only really serious problem is, not only the amount of juvenile crime, but the tendency towards more juvenile crime. I shall not attempt to suggest whom we should line up to assist the Department of Justice to bring about a reform and improvement, but the first people to whom I would make an appeal are the parents. I would appeal to them to see that they exercise parental control, to see that their children are not running about the country and the streets after 10 p.m. in winter or after 11 p.m. in summer.

Mr. Burke

There is a problem in County Dublin as a result of the extension of the city. In the Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Finglas and Santry areas there are not enough Guards to deal with the problems that arise from time to time. In Ballyfermot, which is a big area, there is no barracks.

During the summer time the Gardaí in the barracks along the seaside in County Dublin are overworked. I have referred to this matter on previous occasions. Provision should be made to increase the number of Guards in barracks in seaside areas during the summer time and in the suburban areas where houses are being built week after week.

Representations have been made to me in respect of schools situated on main roads adjacent to the city, for instance, the schools in Lucan and Palmerstown. In Lucan the school is situated at a rather blind bend on the main road. There is fast-moving traffic there all day. I have made representations regarding the possibility of placing a Guard on duty there when the children are going to and from school. The sergeant in the area is very anxious to do all this work but, unfortunately, there are not enough men at his disposal for the purpose. An extra Guard might be responsible for the saving of life. The Garda strength in such places should be increased so that they may carry out this work.

There are courthouses in this country that date back to the 17th century. Some of the courthouses in County Dublin are not heated. I would suggest that the Minister should take over the courthouses. At present the county council are responsible for their maintenance. The change I suggest is long overdue. A number of district justices have referred to the matter on many occasions. It is not fair that a district justice or a judge should have to sit for hours in a cold, dismal court trying to keep himself warm with a few rugs. Courthouses should be improved.

There is another point with which I have often dealt before. It is a point with which the Minister has nopower to deal, but——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is cutting himself out again. He is telling me to cut him out.

Mr. Burke

——it indirectly or, if you like, directly concerns the Minister —housing for the Gardaí. I know that a number of Guards find it very difficult to get suitable accommodation. The local authority passes them on to Justice and somebody there passes them on somewhere else, but I know that a number of Gardaí are living in very bad conditions. A reform in this connection is long overdue and should be faced up to.

Deputy McMenamin mentioned parking arrangements. I should like to see some central authority in charge of parking arrangements, not alone in Dublin City but in the seaside resorts along the County Dublin coast. Somebody is always passing the baby in this matter. We hear that arrangements are to be made to do this, that and the other, but nothing has been done for the past few years in the matter. The Guards say they cannot carry on and the local authority says: "We will have to do this before next season," but nothing is done. That has been happening to my knowledge for the past 20 years. In the summer on fine Sundays you find traffic held up at our seaside resorts by reason of this lack of parking arrangements and possibly because there are not enough Gardaí to do the job as well as they would like to do it, and I suggest that the Minister and local authorities concerned should come to some agreement on a method of co-ordinating the Garda view and the local authority view in this respect so that the chaos which we have experienced for years past will not occur in future.

Juvenile crime, as we know, is on the increase and we have heard many reasons advanced for that increase. In other countries, they deal with it as best they can and here we try to deal with it as humanely as possible. In this connection, I must pay a glowing tribute to the district justice in charge of the juvenile court who has proved himself a very able psychiatrist. He has been greatly helped by the probation officers, but the few probation officers attached to the juvenile court are overworked and it will be necessary to increase the number of such officers, if that district justice is to be helped and assisted in his work. I admire the great Christian work which Justice McCarthy is trying to do to save these juveniles who commit crime from going to jail, because I feel that when they go to jail, they are merely serving their time as future criminals. The only way in which this great work can be continued successfully is by the appointment of further probation officers to assist this district justice in his efforts.

Mr. Cafferky

I am pleased to see that at long last some of the Gardaí at least have been issued with the new uniform. Let us hope that it will not be long until all the Guards are supplied with that uniform. It is very suitable and very becoming and I am sure the Guards will be pleased to have it, especially in the summer months.

As the Minister is aware, I have on a number of occasions expressed my dissatisfaction with late dancing and I am still of the opinion that the Minister should give some direction with a view to ensuring that some control will be exercised over the granting of licences for the holding of dances until the early hours of the morning. It is the desire of every parent and, what is more, the desire in the past few years of 90 per cent. of young men and women who go to dances that the hours of dancing should be confined to normal limits— 8 p.m. until midnight, or 9 p.m. until midnight. It is unreasonable and unchristian that people should come out from dance halls at six o'clock in the morning. We are spending millions on building institutions to cater for the sick, and dancing until the early hours of the morning is one of the ways of ensuring that people will not be healthy—at a dance until 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. and, after one hour or an hour and a half's sleep, out to work. As a sensible body of men, we should come to the conclusion, and should long since have come to the conclusion, that something should be done in this respect.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Kennedy)

Do the district justices give licences for dances until 6 a.m. and 7 a.m.?

Mr. Cafferky

Until 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning. I admit that the Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle

Has no power.

Mr. Cafferky

——is not directly responsible, but——

An Ceann Comhairle

He has no power in the world in the matter.

Mr. Cafferky

——I suggest that legislation——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to suggest legislation on an Estimate.

Mr. Cafferky

I have given my view on that point. With regard to juvenile delinquency and summonses for nonattendance at school, we see from time to time in the Press arguments that children should get longer holidays, that it is unfair to ask them to attend school so often and that they should get off for this period and that period of the year. The result is that many children get it into their heads that they should not go to school at all, and parents who do not exercise sufficient control find it difficult to get them to go. If there is a large number of summonses—I believe they represent only about half of the number that should be summoned, as there is not a strict observance of the rule, that not every school is visited by the Gardaí and some schools máy be visited only once a year, and consequently many parents escape—the laxity is due to the lack of parental control and the lack of interest parents take in the education of their children.

Before compulsory education came into being at all, we went to the national school until we were 16 and sometimes 17. Now, when a boy reaches 12 or 13, he is anxious to remain at home immediately and thinks he should not go during the last year. In fact, the last year is not the same to him at all, and he would remind you of a young man in jail. For the last year he is like that, and the last month seems as long as 12 months. He is only waiting for the day when he can get out. Boys know now they can stay at home as soon as they reach 14, so the last year is really wasted. That results from the compulsory attendance regulations, which have not achieved the solution we expected. They were meant only to put to school the children whose parents would not take an interest in them and make them attend, those who were neglected by their parents, who left it to the Gardaí, the teachers and the State. Now there is complaint from them that, when they reach 13, they are finished school. As a result, the boys and girls leaving school to-day can be described as illiterate. They cannot read or write, they know nothing, they cannot sign their names. It is a shocking state of affairs, hardly believable, yet it is a well-known fact. In comparison, the boys who leave school now at the seventh standard are definitely not as good as those who left school at the seventh standard 15 or 20 years ago; in fact, those leaving at the seventh standard now are not as good as those who reached the third standard in the years gone by.

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be more relevant on the Vote for Education. It is not relevant on this Vote.

Mr. Cafferky

The cause of the large number of summonses for failure to send children to school is the lack of interest taken by the parents in their children. If anything is to be done to correct that, it must be done by trying to fix the attention of the parents on their duty to their children.

Some years ago, when petrol was scarce during the war, I was travelling in County Kerry late at night and came up against a difficulty which it occurred to me I should bear in mind when the Estimate for the Department of Justice would be under discussion, or which I should deal with in the form of a question. I spent about an hour in that strange town in County Kerry at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, trying to discover the Garda barracks. I motored round the town in the spilling rain and discovered the barracks only by accident. Every Garda barracks should have, at least after midnight, a light or some other indication that it is a barracks. If you go into any town outside the City of Dublin at night, how are you to discover the barracks? Are you to go round with a torch looking at every house? In any other civilised country in the world, there is a light or some other indication that these gentlemen reside there. Immediate steps should be taken to deal with that point.

Captain Giles

We would often be trying to evade that light.

Mr. Davin

Perhaps it should be a red light, or a green light.

Mr. Cafferky

There are times when we have to call upon them and when we recognise and appreciate their importance. In regard to juvenile delinquency, I daresay that there is more of it in the City of Dublin than in any other city or town in the Twenty-Six Counties. There is an amazing lack of parental control. It is quite natural to see little boys and girls of five to nine years of age on the streets at midnight and up to 1 o'clock in the morning with no one to care for them and no one interested in them. Some law should be introduced by the local authority to prevent that. Parents should be held responsible for having those children indoors after 8 o'clock and they should be punished severely if they do not appreciate their responsibilities. I do not know what kind of citizens we will have in 20 or 30 years. You see thousands of children roaming the streets now uncontrolled, like little animals. Every Deputy knows that is so in Dublin. It may not be popular for city Deputies to say that, but they should say it. Those children roam around from public-house to public-house and from café to café selling papers, and that money is not put to the best of use either. That is the regrettable part of it. Something should be done about that. It might help to reduce the juvenile crime at a later stage; as it is, in those early years they learn many bad habits.

In regard to the behaviour of the Guards in general, as a body of men no one can find fault with it. On the whole they are helpful, courteous, and a credit to the nation.

The car parking and traffic problem in Dublin is even worse than in London—and that is saying a lot. I know of no street in the City of London, with the exception of one, to equal what you experience in the O'Connell Street and Butt Bridge area. The Minister for Justice cannot be held responsible for the traffic jams unless the local authorities provide accommodation and also some other means of crossing streets than there is at present. They must revolutionise their ideas and move with the times to prevent these traffic jams in the city.

I was one of the first who some years ago in the House suggested new uniforms for the Guards. I am pleased to see that some of them are wearing them, and I hope that it will not be long until they all have that uniform.

Mr. MacCarthy

The Gardaí are primarily police officers, and in consequence their co-operation with citizens, their general demeanour and vigilance help to prevent crime, as does of course their ready detection of any evasion of the law. Judging the Garda force on these lines, I think that we can compliment them on their efficiency.

Reference has been made to the control of traffic, particularly in the towns and cities, and from my experiences I can say, in spite of Deputy Davin's complaint, that generally speaking when the streets are wet and slippery, the Guards give precedence to horse-drawn traffic, which is only right, because when they are heavily laden it is rather difficult for the horses to keep their feet under certain conditions, and the streets are so smooth nowadays that they should have that advantage.

With regard to the parking problem in the cities there has been, in the south at any rate, co-operation between the public authorities and the Garda superintendents. Conferences have been held on the questions of the control of traffic through one-way streets, the streets on which parking may be permitted, and for how long. This method has worked out very satisfactorily, though parking is still a problem and will be a problem while so many motors are on the road—and the numbers are increasing. It is just a matter of doing the best thing possible as the occasion arises. A car park has been provided in Cork by private enterprise, but motorists, I think, are rather slow to avail of it, which is a pity indeed while traffic is as it is at present. However, recent regulations have helped considerably, and there are very few complaints at the moment. I think that the same could be said for Dublin: recent regulations have been fairly satisfactory.

Many Deputies I am sure are aware that when Gardaí are transferred they are often moved miles from the residence of their families and for years are unable to get accommodation near the barracks where their duty calls them. That is very undesirable from every point of view and I agree with the suggestion that there should be at least one house near each Garda barracks even in rural areas—because the difficulty is even greater there in many cases—for the accommodation of married Gardaí who are transferred to these stations. From the social point of view and considering all we have heard about family life, the present condition should not exist. We have been told that Gardaí are sometimes penalised because they marry too soon. I think, however, that when the probation period of their service is over they should be as free in that respect as any other citizen.

Juvenile delinquency has been mentioned and of course there is no doubt that parental control is a very important factor in its prevention. Life at the present moment is very competitive and in the schools children have long hours of study. They get a considerable number of lessons to do at home at night which sometimes take many hours. They are then sent out to take a breath of fresh air after their long hours of confinement and there is a tendency for them to stay out too long. The break should come earlier, after their return from school, and they should do their lessons later in their homes.

The control of children leaving schools is difficult. I do not think that any accidents have occurred in the vicinity of schools because teachers are very vigilant particularly about the younger children. The accidents have occurred some distance from the schools. It is not easy for the Gardaí or anybody else, even the parents themselves, at all times to control children in streets where the traffic moves speedily. Some time ago—I do not know whether the system still prevails—one Garda from each barracks dealt with school attendance in his area and he also came to the schools once a month and gave a talk on the avoidance of accidents in busy traffic. Of course a good deal of notice was taken of a comparative stranger like that and I think that it was a very good idea and very helpful to the teachers.

The influence of the cinemas is a question which has been debated very frequently. Undoubtedly some of the films we get are not very uplifting, at any rate for our children. Parents may want to go themselves and as sometimes there is nobody to mind the children it is question of staying at home or bringing the children occasionally to the pictures. In that way they see pictures in their earlier years and get a desire for them subsequently. When they become a little more mature they form the habit of going to the pictures more frequently than they should. Until we develop films of our own of a cultural nature which would be of advantage to youthful minds giving them perhaps as well a better knowledge of the history of our own land by showing ancient sites and castles connected with historic events, we will not grip that problem as we should.

While public houses are open for bona fide travellers there is a temptation for others to go there at the hours prohibited for them. These bona fide regulations were made at a time when travel was far slower and more difficult than it is now. The sooner these regulations are done away with completely the better, and the easier it will be for the Gardaí to help in the administration of the licensing laws and to prevent illegal trading.

Generally speaking, we can compliment the Garda force. They are recruited from rural and urban areas. They have a knowledge of life in this country and certainly they have a sense of proportion. Because of their efficiency, their method of approaching the rural population and of dealing with those who may inadvertently put themselves in the way of the law, I think that we can be very pleased with the way they carry out their duty.

Mr. Cogan

There are just one or two questions of general policy to which I should like to direct the attention of the Minister. First of all, it is essential that the strength of the force should be increased. That is particularly necessary in the larger cities and towns. There is, however, another question which arises, the allocation of Gardaí to rural areas, to the scarcely populated country districts. I have often felt that it is not absolutely necessary to keep three or four Gardaí in every isolated village and to have a member of the force on duty for the whole 24 hours. In a quiet, country village, a system could be devised by which Gardaí would go off duty just the same as anybody else. Of course in case of emergency they would be always available, but it is not necessary to have a station orderly on for the 24 hours of the day. That is one of the most laborious and expensive features of Garda administration. If a man has to be on duty for the 24 hours of the day, you cannot do that with less than three or four members in a station. If you dispense with that 24 hours of duty, you can reduce the strength of the force in areas that are thinly populated and where crime is very infrequent.

There is another question of general policy, and that is in regard to members of the Garda carrying out duties other than what might be strictly described as police duties. For example, Gardaí are required to collect statistics and perform various services of that kind in connection with agriculture and industry and commerce, and in other ways also. I have often heard it suggested that Gardaí should be dispensed from the duty of regulating traffic and that that should be allocated to a special traffic control force. It was also suggested to-day that there should be a special force for looking after children going to and coming from school, a sort of wardens to protect the children. On that whole general question I think that it is not in itself an evil that police should be called upon to do duty other than what would be strictly described as the prevention and detection of crime. The Garda who travels around the rural areas collecting statistics and perhaps distributing old age pensions books, and doing what might be described as messenger jobs of that kind is doing a useful service. He is keeping in close personal contact with the people of his district and in that way he is making himself more efficient as a police officer. The same applies to looking after traffic on the roads and performing various functions which the Gardaí are called upon to perform.

The prevention and detection of crime is the main function of any police force; but it is a duty upon which the members of the force cannot be actively engaged all the time, unless we have a position in which crime is being committed all the time. Therefore, it is not any harm if members of the force are engaged in other work of an absolutely essential and useful nature, because, as I say, the performance of such duties brings them into contact with the people in a friendly and helpful way. The Garda who is protecting children going to and from school is rendering a friendly and useful service. He is showing himself to be a friend of the people, and it is essential for the successful administration of the law that the Garda, as a force, should always be on the friendliest terms with the community.

In helping to discharge various functions other than detecting crime and prosecuting for offences, they are keeping themselves on terms of friendship with the people and they are living active and useful lives at times when they are not called upon to deal with offenders or criminals.

I have a feeling also that the Garda, as a force, should be requested by the Minister to seek out and to survey and bring to the notice of the local authorities danger spots on the roads. There is a considerable difference of opinion as to what particular sections of roads are gravely dangerous. Nobody is better qualified to point out the greatest source of danger to traffic than the members of the Garda. For example, we have all over the country and in this city unprotected quays, piers and waterways, places where there is no protection between the roadway and a river or harbour. That is true of the city and of many parts of the country. Nothing has been done about that. Members of the Garda who have a knowledge of the risk and dangers in connection with such places should be the best qualified to point out and place in order of priority the most dangerous points, the points which require to be protected most urgently.

The same thing applies to the country roads. There are some points on these roads which are particularly dangerous to traffic. County engineers and other engineers of local authorities try to deal with these dangers by removing dangerous turns, but I feel that it would be helpful to them if the Gardaí were to find out where the greatest dangers arise, what particular points are the most serious menace to traffic, and put them in order of priority so that they could be attended to as speedily as possible.

We all know that the local authorities have a very heavy burden to bear in regard to expenditure on the roads, and that they cannot remove every turn or corner that might be regarded as dangerous. At least, it would be helpful to them if the Gardaí indicated the particular points which could be regarded as extremely dangerous.

The following is a particular matter in regard to which the Minister should feel a certain amount of sympathy. I am referring to the members of the Gardaí who retired before the recent pensions increase was granted. Some of these people still feel very much aggrieved because their pensions, having regard to present-day costs, are inadequate. The particular and most serious grievance arises because of the conditions operating for widows. I feel something should be done for these people. A case came to my notice during the past few weeks of a member of the force who died suddenly, leaving a family of ten children in the position that they were compelled to depend upon the miserable little pension given to the widow of a Garda. Such a condition of affairs is a great worry to members of the force, particularly to members with families. If anything could be done to improve the present position, it would be much appreciated.

Another matter which requires urgent attention is the fact that in some districts the buildings where the Gardaí are stationed are in a very decrepit condition. I have raised in this House before the condition of the Garda station at Baltinglass, which is a building which would prove very difficult to repair and to keep in repair. Steps are being taken to provide a new station but, so far, little progress has been made.

Mr. G. Boland

Deputy Morrissey started off by asking if we had got the recruits yet. The position is that they have not yet been called for examination. The Civil Service Commissioners could not see their way to provide for the examination until towards the end of June. It will not be a competitive examination but a qualifying one. The first contingent of recruits will not be available until about September, and it may be the end of the financial year before we will have the second lot available. There is only accommodation for 150 at the training school; and, therefore; only 150 have been called. There have been about 1,000 applications for membership of the Gárda force. I will have to ask the Commissioner how he will arrange matters, but I think he will have to arrange for a certain quota for each area. However, I am not sure of that. He is calling about 450 for examination, and he hopes to get among that number sufficient to meet his requirements—300. Perhaps he could call all the applicants, namely 1,000, for examination but only 300 would be called to the force. I do not really know whether that method would be better. I do not know how the Commissioner is going to select the Gardaí. There has been objection raised to this matter on both sides of the House. Therefore, it does not seem to be on political grounds that he makes his selection.

I do not want to rub it in, but the fact is that in spite of the big growth in population in this city in recent years, there are 200 Gardaí less in Dublin City now and 750 less in the whole country than was the case when we left office. I feel that Fianna Fáil would have continued recruiting. Shortly before I left office in 1948 I met a deputation from the Dublin Corporation. They pointed out to me that all sorts of unruly happenings, such as burglaries and so forth, were taking place in the City of Dublin. Therefore, there were not even sufficient Gardaí in the metropolis then. We are trying to remedy that situation but, unfortunately, it cannot be done as quickly as we wish. The position is that the first 300 recruits will be allocated to Dublin; they are needed there. Of course, as I mentioned before, we can only take 150 recruits at the time, owing to lack of accommodation. If there were sufficient accommodation, of course, we would take the whole 300.

The question of school attendance was raised by a number of Deputies. Deputy McMenamin spoke my mind on this matter. He placed the chief blame for the non-attendance of children at school and for juvenile delinquency on the parents. I do not know whether or not Deputy McMenamin is correct when he says that the teachers cannot enforce discipline in the schools. Children ought to be corrected, in the first instance, by their parents and after that in the schools, but it is the parents who have the main responsibility in this matter. When a child has been prosecuted by the Gardaí, he has gone rather far and it is very difficult to say what can be done with him. My recollection is that when we went into this matter of juvenile delinquency in previous years, and investigated the circumstances of the young delinquents we found it was not the very poor children who were the worst. If I remember rightly, the worst offenders, proportionately, were the well-housed children.

Questions were raised about the new Garda uniform. The uniform is really an experiment for the present. We want to see how people like it and to find out if it will prove satisfactory. If it does, we will probably clothe the whole force in it.

Captain Cowan

The material might be improved. It does not look to be good, durable material.

Mr. Boland

It appears to me to look very well but, as I said, it is in an experimental stage at the present. If the uniform looks so well, it might be desirable that visitors coming here could see the members of the force on duty in this House dressed in it.

Mr. Hickey

What about increasing the pensions of the Gardaí widows?

Mr. Boland

We will come to that. I am sure every Deputy knows that the people mainly responsible for the traffic regulations are the Minister for Local Government and the local authorities, and that the Gardaí are the group who enforce these regulations. The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána makes the traffic regulations in consultation with local authorities and subject to the agreement of the Minister for Local Government. I am not trying to evade responsibility when I say that the Traffic Act is a matter for the Minister for Local Government. All Deputies are aware of that fact. We all realise that a lot has to be done in this connection. Somebody suggested we should abolish the hire-purchase system and that it would result in fewer cars being on the roads. I do not know if the abolition of the system would have that result. However, we all realise that something will have to be done about the traffic problem, but it is not my particular job.

There are different views expressed on the subject of driving tests. I think it is a fact that a lot of the people who become involved in accidents are very good drivers who would pass any test. The learner and the bad driver are very cautious. However, those people who are driving for years take chances. They think they can drive better than anybody else and they are the type of people who become involved in accidents. We have heard the point debated time and again but I feel sure that driving tests would not improve the position. The person who understands the rules of the road should be able to drive properly. If drivers did not take so many chances there would be a decrease in the number of accidents.

Mr. Sweetman

If they do not pay attention, skill will not save them from accidents.

Mr. Boland

Yes. We all know that. In regard to lady drivers, I do not think they are the worst. I think that some young people who think they are on the race-track are more irresponsible. As far as a driving test is concerned, some of those drivers would pass any test. Of course, they are bad drivers.

Captain Cowan

Generally speaking, the driving is not bad.

Mr. Boland

I would not think so. In regard to the question raised by Deputy Morrissey of imposing a penalty on the spot, I do not know how that would work out. It would require an amendment of the Act. Naturally, it would save a lot of time both for the Guards and the motorist, but whether it would be open to very serious objections I do not know.

Captain Cowan

It would create a very big accounting staff.

Mr. Boland

I imagine it would be very difficult here although it is done in other countries.

Mr. Morrissey

It might reduce the number of accidents very considerably.

Mr. Boland

It might. The question of vehicles for the Gardaí was also raised. We are making provision for 85 new cars and auto-cycles, mainly for the purpose of trying to obtain better control of the traffic on the road.

Mr. Sweetman

Will these new cars be fitted with loudspeakers?

Mr. Boland

I believe some of them will. I will pass on the suggestion that the cars should not be easily known. I suppose some of the occupants should be in mufti so that offenders will not spot them. It was also suggested that the Gardaí were doing work which was more appropriate to other Departments. This has been debated time and again. However, I still hold the opinion that a lot of the work of a non-police nature that is being done by the Gardaí is done better and cheaper than it would be done by employing other officials.

In many of the rural areas, there is very little ordinary crime and, if this non-police work was not done by the Gardaí, there would be no reason for having Garda stations at all in some of those districts. I was speaking to a superintendent whom I know and he told me that in connection with old age pensions, when the Gardaí get the books they go around to the people with them. They are of great assistance in the country places because they know the people and look after them. This man pointed out what I knew myself, that if all the non-police duties were to be taken away from the Gardaí, a lot of the Garda stations could be removed and people would not have anyone to call in an emergency. We all know how useful the Guards were all over the country when the late war was on. Overnight we were able to establish in every area a local defence force mainly because in every part of the country we had Gardaí, a ready-made organisation, and until times change a lot I do not think it would be desirable to close those barracks.

The question of the report was also raised. The committee did report. A lot of the things that have been recommended in that report are under consideration by every Department at the moment.

Mr. Blowick

When will the Minister be able to make it public?

Mr. Boland

I cannot say. We have to await the reactions of the Departments before any decision is taken. Where Departments get their work done by the Gardaí and some of the suggestions are that it should not be done by the Gardaí, the question of costs and other matters must be taken into consideration. Deputy Morrissey was here when Deputy McMenamin was speaking and will have heard what he had to say about the inland fishery. He objects altogether to any attempt to force that duty on the Gardaí. He says the conservators should do that job and that the Gardaí have enough to do. I do not imagine that is their job, but the Guards can help. The bailiffs are appointed for this work.

Mr. Morrissey

The conservators have not the money to pay.

Mr. Boland

Anyhow, Deputy Morrissey can read in the Official Report what his colleague said about that proposal. It was much stronger than I would be inclined to say it. About the Solicitors Bill which has been under consideration for the last ten years, it is now drafted and I hope finally to have it ready for submission to the Government. It is under examination in the Department of Finance at present but I cannot say how long it will be before it is presented to the Dáil.

Mr. Sweetman

Whenever that is law, the Department of Justice will not know what to do with themselves.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Gallagher mentioned the question of gaming in Dublin. There is considerable abuse in this connection; women and children are spending their money on these gaming machines. We have this matter of illegal gaming under consideration; it is becoming very serious.

Deputy Hickey spoke about non-attendance at schools. He blamed lack of parental control and I think he is right. In regard to speed limits, that is a matter for the local authority. They can fix speed limits with the consent of the Minister.

Mr. Sweetman

There was a speed limit fixed in Bray. Has the Minister come to the conclusion whether it was a success or not?

Mr. Boland

I cannot say.

Mr. Sweetman

It was generally accepted that it was going to be a pilot for the whole country.

Mr. Boland

Now let me come to the problem of the cinema. Some say that it has no evil effect while others hold the opposite opinion. As regards the Censor, he can only deal with matters that are supposed to be obscene or questions of that kind from the moral point of view. I do not think the Censor can deal with the point that was mentioned here, the gunman. It is very difficult to keep children from seeing films of that kind. The parents ought not to allow them to go to those pictures. We cannot expect the State to take over the parents' duties. It was suggested that the Censor should reserve certain types of films for adults. If that were done, it might stimulate an unwholesome interest in that particular type of film. When you consider that aspect of the matter you will see that it is not as simple as it looks.

On the question of pensions for the widows of Gardaí, the last pensions Order was dealt with by the Minister for Justice in 1950. The Representative Body would like to get more if they could. I am not saying that if they make another demand, they will get a further increase. I am not going to encourage them but, as I say, they have not brought the matter up. I do not know whether they thought it was hopeless, but the fact remains that they have not done it.

About the building of houses for Gardaí, I would like to see that done. I know that years ago nearly every Deputy in this House who spoke on the Department of Justice Estimate advocated getting houses for the Guards and financing it out of the housing allowances they got. We went so far as to take power, if necessary, to acquire sites compulsorily. It was very urgent to acquire barracks in certain areas, and also sites for houses. It has taken all their time to try and acquire new barracks, because a lot of the old barracks were in very bad condition. So far nothing has been done about houses.

Mr. Byrne

Would the Minister consider putting down a substantial deposit if they want to build their own houses?

Mr. Boland

I cannot consider that matter.

Mr. Byrne

Various companies in Dublin are doing it.

Mr. Boland

The trouble about the Guards in the country is that they are liable to be changed. In Dublin City the position is quite different. They are attached to the Dublin Metropolitan Area. It is probable that they can raise the money, the same as other people, under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts and in other ways. However, the position is different in the country.

Mr. Byrne

Some employers in Dublin are doing it. They put down a deposit to help the men to build their own houses.

Mr. G. Boland

The Gardaí in Dublin recently got an increase in their rent allowance, but that did not happen in the country. A Garda would have at least as good a chance as—in fact, better than most people— anybody else.

With regard to the Land Registry, I understand that about 20,000 cases of vestings have yet to be dealt with.

Mr. Blowick

20,000 arrears?

Mr. Boland

They are to be dealt with. I suppose that is what that means. There are 3,000 labourers' cases and 400 copy maps. I understand that they have some new technical equipment—photostat—which will expedite the matter greatly. It is not so easy to get extra staff because they have to be trained. The staff are doing all they can to cope with the position. Undoubtedly, it is not so easy to get cases up to time, but I understand that they will be dealt with as urgently as required.

Mr. Blowick

Can I take it that the staff in the Land Registry is almost able to cope with what is coming from the Land Commission?

Mr. Boland

I am informed by my advisers that they are.

I shall have the matter of boundary fences, which Deputy Blowick mentioned, examined and let the Deputy know the result. I did not know that the matter was so complicated.

I am informed that the position in regard to court clerks has improved. Only 26 out of 150 have not been made permanent.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Deputy Lynch) wants to know the position in regard to a High Court for Cork. I do not know how soon that can be done, but the matter is under active consideration. We shall have a bit of trouble about that, too. Some of the vested interests do not want it. I am in favour of it, and I think it will come as soon as we can get matters straightened out.

I think that, under the Juries Act. the area of the jury in Cork is rather small and that it will be necessary to extend the area. However, that is another day's work. I understand that the matter of children's allowances applies to the whole service.

Both Deputy McGrath and Deputy Lynch mentioned Garda barracks in Cork. I suppose the reason is that the other barracks were established a long time and that in new areas new barracks have to be built. I have no doubt that in time the matter will be fixed up.

I think I dealt with the point raised by Deputy Blowick and other Deputies about holders of the Fáinne and other rejected applicants. I have to find out on what basis that was done.

Deputy Burke raised the question of wardens to protect children coming from school. I think that if we could get more Guards and allocate them to the different areas when the children are coming home from school we should be able to fix the matter. I imagine that in Dublin a child has to take a double risk. Under an arrangement which was reached during the war, school children in Dublin have to go home at lunch-time. That means that they run the risk twice instead of once. However, that is not a matter for me. I just mention that it throws twice the risk on a child's being hurt.

Minister for Education (Mr. Moylan)

It would be a good thing if some of the racing motorists would slow down a bit.

Mr. Boland

When we get the Guards.

Mr. MacCarthy

The accidents do not happen near the school.

Mr. Boland

On your way out to Clontarf, you would need a Guard at two or three different points.

Captain Cowan

Where there are Guards, they are doing excellent work.

Mr. Boland

The trouble is that we have not enough of them. I do not think that we are to blame for that situation.

Captain Cowan

There is a great spirit of co-operation between the Guards and the children.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Blaney mentioned the Carrigart affair. I have nothing to add to what I said already. A sworn inquiry would not serve any purpose and it would do the sergeant in question no good. The best thing is to let things stay as they are.

Deputy Finan mentioned Guards who marry without permission and whose rent allowance is withheld. I shall inquire into that matter.

Deputy McMenamin gave us his views on crime. I agree with most of them. It is not easy for us to make parents do their duty by their children. If they will not do it, then it is very difficult for us to do so. The same Deputy also mentioned a matter which has often been complained of but of which there is no evidence, namely, Gardaí who enforce the law against some people and not against other people. It may be true. I suppose we are all human.

Mr. Sweetman

To be fair to the Minister, the only time I gave him evidence of it before, he took action.

Mr. Boland

Action can be taken if there is evidence, but it is very difficult to get evidence. Deputy Davin spoke a lot, and wants to know when the new bus depot will be in operation—the one Deputy Cowan said would not be there only for him. I think that that would be true.

Mr. Morrissey

That is not the only thing he is responsible for.

Mr. Boland

I did not intervene while Deputy Davin was speaking because I did not want to have a debate on the Store Street bus depot. As a Dublin man, I think that you could not get a better site for the bus station. Even if it takes a little while longer to go up the North Circular Road, it will relieve traffic in the middle of the city. You will see how it works out.

Captain Cowan

A lot of the troubles will go when we have the two new roads.

Mr. Morrissey

And so will some of the Deputies.

Mr. Boland

We may be all gone, so far as that is concerned. I think it a great pity that the last Government ever stopped that scheme. It would have been in operation two years ago if it had not been stopped, and I believe would have improved traffic conditions mainly rather than the reverse. Time will prove that.

Mr. Morrissey

Could we start a debate on that now?

Mr. O'Hara

Before the question is put, I should like to ask the Minister if he will give some consideration to the position of Gardaí in remote areas who have to travel long distances on push bicycles. Would he consider supplying a motor bike to each of the Garda stations in areas such as North Mayo or Connemara where the Gardaí have to cycle up to ten, 15 or 20 miles over wind-swept roads in mountainy districts?

Captain Cowan

And some of them are not as young as they used to be.

Mr. Boland

That is a matter, as ex-Ministers know, on which the Representative Body would make a case. I shall have the matter considered when it comes before me, but I am not saying that I shall do what the Deputy requests.

Mr. S. Flanagan

In connection with the Land Registry, I understood the Minister to say that the Land Registry is capable of coping with its present work. Is the Minister aware that in the month of March this year 500 more applications were received in the Land Registry than were received in the corresponding month of 1951?

Mr. Boland

I can assure the Deputy that we are doing all we can to deal with this matter. It is very hard to keep up to date because undoubtedly there is a big volume of vesting of farms going on. While that is so, it is hard to keep up to date but I am assured that any urgent cases can be dealt with expeditiously.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I know that is true but the volume of business has increased enormously.

Mr. Boland

There is a rush of vestings.

Mr. Blowick

16,000 vestings per year.

Captain Cowan rose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is this a question?

Captain Cowan

Yes. I regret that I was not here to raise it before the Minister replied. I have asked the Minister by question a matter relating to the Taca Síochána and a couple of years' service which they feel they have lost. The only thing I am asking the Minister now is not to make up his mind finally that they will not get the couple of years for which they are asking. Perhaps the Minister would leave it over for consideration at some later date.

Mr. Boland

There is no question of a final settlement for anything in this world.

Vote put and agreed to