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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 1952

Vol. 132 No. 1

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The general purposes of the Bill are to extend and supplement the legislation governing the housing activities of local authorities, private persons and public utility societies, and to remedy certain deficiencies in the existing legislation which experience has shown to be necessary. The principal provisions governing the payment of grants towards the erection and reconstruction of houses by private enterprise are contained in the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948, and the Bill proposes a continuation of the policy enshrined in that Act with certain extensions and improvements. Section 6 provides for the continuance for a further period of two years of the existing State grants payable to persons and public utility societies for the erection and purchase of houses. Applications for new house grants continue to run at a high level, which suggests that the number of houses to be completed by private persons and public utility societies in 1952-53 will be higher than in 1951-52 when the figure was estimated at 5,221.

The maximum reconstruction grant at present payable in urban and rural areas to agricultural labourers and farmers up to £50 valuation is £80. Section 18 of the Bill provides for an increase in the grant by substituting new maxima of £80, £100 and £120 for houses which, when reconstructed, contain three, four and five or more rooms respectively. Reconstruction grants have been of great significance in the drive for improved housing conditions, especially in rural areas. The peak year was 1938-39 when more than 5,000 houses were reconstructed. This high level has not since been reached, but I am hopeful that there will be a marked expansion in the present rate of reconstruction work where such work will preserve existing buildings that are worth preserving. The grants will, as heretofore, be payable to farmers in both urban and rural areas. They will also be payable to agricultural labourers reconstructing houses in their own occupation in rural areas. As regards agricultural labourers in urban areas, their claims for reconstruction grants will in future be dealt with under Section 8 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950, which enables a State grant of up to £80 and a local authority grant of a similar amount to be paid where the applicant's valuation does not exceed £12. This amendment, which is effected by Sections 18 and 20 of the Bill, is necessary because the definition of "agricultural labourer" for the purposes of the Labourers Acts is so wide as to include all persons who work for hire irrespective of residence or occupation with the result that under the existing law any worker living in a town or city with valuation not exceeding £50 is eligible for the reconstruction grant under Section 16 of the Act of 1948, as amended by the Act of 1950. The amendments proposed will not affect any grant allocated and notified to an applicant before the 29th April, 1952.

Reconstruction grants are at present payable only where the reconstructed house does not exceed 1,400 square feet, and this rules out a certain number of cases, especially the older type of farmhouse, thus involving genuine hardship on a limited number of applicants. Section 15 of the Bill proposes to remove this limit so that applicants for the reconstruction grants under Section 16 of the 1948 Act will be in the same position as applicants for reconstruction grants under Section 8 of the 1950 Act and Section 5 of the Housing and Labourers Act, 1937.

Under Section 9 of the 1950 Act, power was given to make a second grant for reconstruction after the expiration of 15 years from the date of completion of the erection of the house or the reconstruction work in respect of which a previous grant was made. It was the intention that the restrictions contained in sub-section (3) of Section 5 of the Housing Act of 1932, as extended by Section 4 of the Housing and Labourers Act, 1937, would be removed. These restrictions referred in the main to houses for which grants were made under the Housing (Building Facilities) Act, 1924, the Housing Acts, 1925-1931 and the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923. Some doubts have been raised as to the legal position and in order to clarify the matter, it is proposed to repeal in the Schedule the sections in the 1932 and 1937 Acts which prohibit the payment of second reconstruction grants.

Section 21 of the Bill also contains an amendment in regard to second reconstruction grants. Many people who reconstructed their dwelling houses while not interfering with the existing thatched roof have since discovered that while thatch may be attractive as a roof when neatly kept, it is in these times a most expensive roof to maintain. I have been approached on this matter by some of those affected and others who have an intimate knowledge of the subject and I am acceding to their pleas by enabling a second grant to be paid after ten years where the reconstruction work includes the replacement of a thatched roof by a roof of slates or tiles.

Section 7 of the Bill provides for a grant of up to £50 for the provision and installation of a private water supply and sewerage facilities in a house which is situated in an area where no public piped water supply or sewerage scheme has been or is being provided. I am sure the House will agree that this provision is very desirable in order to encourage applicants in isolated rural areas to install water and sewerage facilities which are so necessary for improving the conditions and amenities of living and securing proper sanitary standards in their houses. This country is probably unique in Western Europe in that a large proportion of the population live in isolated houses so that there are many extensive areas where the provision of public piped services would be impracticable. In areas where public facilities are available, the householder is usually not required to do more than have his premises connected with the mains outside his door; in the rural areas, however, the water must be obtained by boring, pumping or some other means, piped to the house, and provision made for disposal of water and water borne sewage. The grant will be payable irrespective of the occupation or valuation of the applicant and the applicant need not necessarily be the person in occupation of the house.

Section 7 provides also that the valuation of the house will not be increased on account of the installation of the water and sewerage facilities within seven years after the completion of the work; this concession is already available where a reconstruction grant is paid under the Housing Acts.

Under Section 19 of the Bill, the total of grants which may be paid under Section 7 and under the 1948 or 1950 Act in respect of the construction or purchase of a new house will be equated to the grant appropriate to a house with a piped water supply and sewerage facilities. This, in effect, removes the differential operating against a house not serviced with water supply and sewerage on erection which if provided subsequently would have to be provided at the owner's cost.

Section 7 of the Act of 1950 gave a general power to housing authorities to make grants not exceeding those paid by the State under Section 16 of the 1948 Act, and Section 6 of the 1950 Act in respect of the construction and purchase of new houses. In the formulation of schemes under the 1950 Act, housing authorities put forward varying proposals. In some counties no schemes were made. In some instances the schemes were restricted to classes who would normally have to be re-housed under the Labourers Acts and the Housing of the Working Classes Acts and corresponding classes amongst the farming community. In others, however, the benefits were extended to all classes irrespective of needs or circumstances. In all cases the financial provision was limited to a certain sum although in a free-for-all scheme there was no guarantee that the amount provided would suffice to cater for all applicants. The operation of Section 7 has, therefore, been somewhat confused and haphazard and it is felt that the local authorities need the guidance of the Legislature as to the circumstances in which additional assistance should be granted.

Sections 9, 10, 11 and 12 of the Bill are therefore introduced to replace Section 7 of the 1950 Act. These provisions will permit of payment of supplementary grants on graded scales to:—

(a) farmers up to £35 valuation;

(b) lower income classes (other than farmers) with family incomes up to £416 a year, and

(c) working classes and agricultural labourers with family incomes exceeding £416 a year who are tenants of or are eligible for local authority housing accommodation.

The maximum supplementary grants will, it is proposed, range between 33? per cent. and 100 per cent. of the State grants depending on the circumstances of the applicants. In the case of farmers, the supplementary grants should encourage the replacement of farm houses which are not fit for reconstruction. In the case of the lower-income classes, other than farmers, it is anticipated that the supplementary grants will encourage persons to provide houses for themselves and so relieve the demand on local authorities for housing accommodation, with resultant eventual saving to State and local funds. A response from tenants of local authority houses will release houses for letting to other deserving families. The new proposals, therefore, aim to secure that the supplementary grants will be available to those who need them and to a large extent they are designed to result in taking from local authority houses and waiting lists people who with this additional assistance may be able to afford to build houses for themselves.

These supplementary grants may be made towards the cost of the erection and reconstruction of houses and also towards the servicing of houses with water supply and sewerage facilities by persons of the classes mentioned. The grants will be payable also where State grants have been paid under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts. In this connection, the definition of "relevant grant" in Section 2 is such that persons who come within the classes mentioned and who received a building grant under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts in respect of a new house after the 1st August, 1950, will be eligible for the supplementary grants.

Under Section 8 of the Bill, persons who have purchased houses from local authorities will not be eligible for the supplementary grants under Section 11 of the Bill. The reason for this provision is that tenant-purchase schemes in respect of local authority houses are normally very favourable to the purchasers. Persons who occupy premises which a housing authority may have acquired under the Housing Acts and which in the opinion of the authority are not of the type suitable for occupation by the working classes or agricultural labourers will also be excluded from supplementary grants under Section 11. An example of such premises is a shop which an authority acquires in an area to be cleared for the erection of new houses. Section 8, as drafted, will require an amendment by the deletion of the reference to Section 9 and Section 10 as it was not intended that the persons mentioned in Section 8 should be excluded from consideration for supplementary grants under these two sections.

Grants from the State and the housing authority are payable in urban areas under Section 5 of the Housing and Labourers Acts, 1937, in respect of repair works carried out on a house in pursuance of a notice served by the authority under Section 19 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1931. The maximum grant from either source is £80 and is payable to the person having control of the house. Section 30 of the Bill proposes to extend this provision to rural areas. In many non-municipal towns, there are old houses from which families are rehoused by the county councils and the repair of these houses would help to relieve the demands on local authority housing accommodation. County councils are already housing authorities for the purposes of Part III of the Housing Act of 1931, which includes Section 19. The new proposal is a further step in the development of a uniform housing code for urban and rural areas.

The purpose of Section 13 of the Bill is to enable payments of grants to be made to housing authorities or to philanthropic societies in respect of the acquisition and reconstruction of houses for the poorer classes. Such powers existed until 1950 when the provisions of Section 5 (1) (j) of the Housing Act of 1932, as amended, were allowed to lapse. Those provisions empowered the Minister to make a grant to a local authority not exceeding 60 per cent. of the expenses incurred by them in respect of the acquisition of premises for sale or leasing to a philanthropic society or body of persons approved by the Minister. The Minister is also empowered to make a further grant to either the local authority or the philanthropic society not exceeding 60 per cent. of the expenses incurred in altering or repairing the premises, provided that the total of the grants in respect of a premises shall not exceed a sum equivalent to £75 for each separate dwelling provided.

Under Section 19 of the 1948 Act, housing authorities are required to make grants to persons erecting houses for letting of amounts not exceeding the sum set out in the Fourth Schedule to the Act, of which the State may recoup two-thirds. The sums range from £250 to £400 per house depending on the number of rooms and are payable in ten annual instalments. Article 9 of the Housing (New Houses) Regulations, 1948, provides that

"any doubt, dispute or question which may arise as to the interpretation of these regulations, and as to the making or the amount of a grant in respect of any house to which these regulations apply shall be determined by the Minister and such determination shall be final."

Section 16 puts beyond doubt, with retrospective effect, the power of the Minister to decide an appeal by a person aggrieved by the amount of a grant made by a housing authority in respect of a house provided for letting under Section 19 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948.

Section 45 of the Act of 1948 provides for the recovery of grants improperly made under Sections 16, 19 or 20 of that Act and Section 17 of the Bill extends this provision, with retrospective effect, to housing grants generally.

Cases have arisen (and may possibly arise in the future) where housing grants have been allocated in mistake of law by local authorities acting on behalf of the Minister and by officers appointed by the Minister under the Housing Acts. Typical instances are second reconstruction grants allocated because of oversight or ignorance on the part of the applicant that a previous grant had been made and the conditions of the Housing Acts regarding payment of a second grant had not been satisfied. Grants for new houses have also been wrongly allocated, mainly in instances where the floor area proved to be slightly more than 1,400 sq. ft. on final measurement. The number of cases involved is small, but hardship to individuals is often very great. It is proposed in Section 23 of the Bill to give the Minister discretion to pay the grant, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, in each case, subject to the Minister being satisfied that the applicant acted bona fide in proceeding with the work or erection or reconstruction of the house or the provision and installation of private water supply and sewerage facilities.

Increases which have occurred in the selling prices of new houses have obliged purchasers to seek higher loans to meet the net balance of the cost after making allowance for their cash contribution and the State grant.

The most pressing criticism of the limit on the market value of houses qualifying for loans under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts comes, however, not from the house purchasers but from the builders. Moreover, I have no doubt but that if a reasonable increase in the limit were granted there would soon be agitation again to have that limit further increased, an agitation that could be partially justified by the delay in according any increase. It would be impossible to keep following such a spiral of rising prices if it were to occur. Our primary anxiety must be on the purchaser's behalf and the Bill contains a provision in Section 33 that will enable reasonable financial facilities to be granted for the provision of a reasonable type of house. In Dublin, for example, a loan of £1,800 and a grant of £275 with a cash contribution of 5 per cent. will meet the cost of a house up to £2,180. If a man wishes to buy a dearer house than that there will be no statutory bar against his getting a loan of £1,800 but he will have to make up the difference. Whether such a person would in fact obtain a loan will depend on the attitude of the responsible local authority which has full discretion as to whether they should allow a loan in any particular case.

I come now to the provisions of the Bill which relate to local authority housing.

Under Section 17 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950, housing authorities are empowered to acquire land and provide houses for sale or letting to persons irrespective of whether they are or are not members of the working classes or agricultural labourers. They may also sell or lease land to persons and public utility societies for the erection of houses. Where houses are provided under Section 17 by the housing authority, the Minister may make grants not exceeding the grants payable to private persons for the erection of houses. This section has been found defective in operation, especially in relation to the development of lands by housing authorities prior to the sale or lease of the lands. The Bill proposes to repeal Section 17 of the 1950 Act and to substitute Sections 29 and 32 which clarify the powers of the housing authority in these respects. Payment of the appropriate grants in respect of houses provided by the authority for sale or letting is provided for in Section 22 of the Bill.

Representations were made to me that provision should be made for a remission of two-thirds of the rates for seven years in the case of these houses where they had been provided for sale by the housing authority. I do not like the principle of providing for a remission of rates for houses provided by a local authority. If, however, a housing authority feels that some concession should be made, such a concession would be possible in the terms of sale by reducing the sale price by a figure not exceeding the capitalised equivalent of the rates remission. I will consider, on its merits, any proposal which a housing authority may submit for the application of a concession on these lines.

The Bill makes some important additions to the scope of slum clearance and allied operations. Since the early 1930s, these operations have been recognised as the paramount feature of local authority housing activities and, while much remains to be done, I think it will be readily agreed that the results achieved have amply justified the policy of concentrating primarily on slum clearance as constituting not only the most urgent part of the local authorities' programme but also as being the most effective method of reducing the housing problem as a whole to manageable and economic proportions. Over 76,000 houses have been provided since 1932 by local authorities for agricultural labourers and members of the working classes with the assistance of generous State subsidies, and were it not for the unfortunate reduction in building brought about by the war, the elimination of bad housing conditions would have reached a very advanced stage.

Section 14 of the Bill proposes to amend the provisions of the 1932 Housing Act governing the payment of subsidies towards houses provided by urban housing authorities for the working classes. At present, houses provided for homeless families and families in need of accommodation on compassionate, medical or other similar grounds, but not displaced by operations of the housing authority, qualify for the lower subsidy only (33? per cent. of loan charges up to prescribed limits). Section 14 provides for a discretion to pay subsidy at the higher rate (66? per cent. of the prescribed loan charges) for the housing of such families who cannot otherwise be so rehoused. The type of cases intended to be covered are homeless families, e.g., where the parents and children are forced to live separately, or where the family is housed in a county home or in huts, caravans, etc. There are also cases of families which include persons suffering from heart disease and other diseases who are forced to live in rooms on the third or fourth storeys of tenements. The local authority will have to satisfy the Minister that the family was genuinely and urgently in need of the new accommodation.

Section 26 of the Bill also amends the subsidy provisions of the 1932 Act by providing that the higher subsidy (66? per cent. of the prescribed loan charges) will also be payable for the rehousing of a family living in an overcrowded house even though the house is occupied by not more than one family. At present, the removal of a family from an overcrowded house under by-laws is an operation which qualifies for the higher subsidy, but the provision now made in Section 26 is necessary in order to cover urban authorities who have not made by-laws.

In view of the fact that a large part of future rehousing operations will be concerned with the relief of overcrowding, it is imperative that housing authorities should take the necessary steps to enable them to deal effectively with the future prevention of overcrowding in the houses or rooms from which the original overcrowded families have been displaced. It is proposed, therefore, in Section 25 to make it mandatory on urban housing authorities to make and enforce by-laws under Section 20 of the Housing (Ireland) Act, 1919, and Section 15 of the Act of 1948. The 1919 by-laws referred to houses let in lodgings and occupied by members of more than one family. Under the 1948 Act, power is given to housing authorities to make by-laws respecting houses containing not more than two rooms and intended or used for occupation by members of the working classes which are occupied by one family. It is proposed in Section 24 of the Bill to delete the restriction as to the number of rooms in the house contained in Section 15 of the 1948 Act. Thus, the new by-laws will apply to all houses of the working-class type irrespective of the number of families in occupation or the number of rooms which the house contains.

Section 14 of the Bill includes a further amendment of Section 6 of the 1932 Act which relates to subsidy towards the annual loan charges incurred by local authorities in respect of moneys borrowed by them for housing schemes. Under sub-section (4) of Section 6 of the 1932 Act, loan charges are deemed not to exceed in any financial year the sums which would have been payable if the loans had been obtained from the Local Loans Fund. Section 14 of the Bill proposes to remove this limitation in the case of Dublin and Cork Corporations which borrow money for housing schemes by means of stock issues. The loan charges in the case of these two bodies will in future be calculated at the actual terms of borrowing.

Section 26 of the Bill proposes an amendment of the statutory order of priorities for lettings of local authority houses in urban areas. At present, a family suffering from tuberculosis is entitled to priority only in circumstances where the family is living in a one-roomed dwelling. It is felt that this requirement is unduly restricted. For example, a tubercular family of, say, five to six persons living in two rooms is not entitled to priority at present, nor is a tubercular family in an unfit house containing more than one room. The needs of a tubercular family living in overcrowded conditions, irrespective of the number of rooms occupied, could well be as acute as the family in a one-roomed dwelling. Similarly the existing provision under which, in the case of a family in an unfit house, priority for new accommodation operates only where the dwelling contains not more than one room is unreasonably restrictive. A condition that the house is unfit for human habitation should of itself be sufficient to entitle the family to a preference, the number of rooms in the house being relatively unimportant. The preference for lettings in the case of families who require segregation on sex grounds is being amended by reducing the age limit of 16 years, which appears in the 1932 Act and the 1948 Act, to 12 years.

Section 26 of the Bill contains a definition of "overcrowding." The definition is intended to deal with sex segregation and the allowance of free air space for sleeping purposes. The model by-laws which local authorities may at present adopt provide for an allowance of 400 cubic feet of air space for an adult and 300 cubic feet for a child under 12 years of age. It is considered that the air space allowance in the case of a child is inadequate and that it should be raised in the by-laws to the standard adopted for adults. The definition also introduces a restriction as to the height of rooms to be reckoned in calculating cubic capacity. This is of considerable importance in Dublin City where the heights of rooms in the old Georgian type of dwelling are normally up to 12 feet or more. The free air space above eight feet in height is to be disregarded for the purposes of computing the cubic content of such rooms when used wholly or partly for sleeping purposes.

It is proposed to exercise a strict control of all overcrowding operations undertaken by housing authorities. Housing authorities will be required in every case to satisfy the Minister that they have taken effective action to prevent continuance of overcrowding in rooms or houses from which families have been displaced.

Section 26 of the Bill provides also that the statutory preferences governing the letting of working class accommodation provided by housing authorities will not apply to houses provided by virtue of Section 29 of the Bill. Section 29 relates to the provision of non-subsidy houses by housing authorities and separate regulations governing the letting of such houses will be made.

In the Schedule, it is proposed to repeal sub-section (4) of Section 29 of the 1948 Act. This sub-section provides that it shall not be lawful for a housing authority to make lettings save in accordance with regulations made under Section 29. The provisions of the sub-section are unnecessary and are in conflict with the discretion permitted to housing authorities by the previous portion of Section 29 to depart from the statutory order of priorities on grounds of impracticability of adherence, or on grounds of the character, industry, occupation, family circumstances and existing housing conditions of applicants.

Section 31 of the Bill amends the statutory preferences governing lettings of cottages provided under the Labourers Acts in the same way as Section 26 amends the corresponding provisions under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts.

Section 7 of the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Act, 1908, authorises a local authority to establish or acquire lodging houses for the working classes outside their district subject to the consent of any urban or rural district council within whose district it is proposed to establish or acquire the lodging houses. This section, as amended by subsequent Acts, has been relied upon for the compulsory acquisition of land outside its own district by a housing authority for housing purposes. The section is, however, not quite clear in its effect and to remove doubts it is being replaced by Section 27 of the Bill.

Section 23 of the Act of 1950 applies to rural areas the provisions contained in Part II of the Act of 1931, which relates to the clearance of unhealthy areas, but which refers only to persons of the working classes. It is considered desirable to make it clear by Section 28 of the Bill that such references may be construed as having application to agricultural labourers in rural areas.

This completes my outline of the main features of the Bill which I recommend for the early and sympathetic consideration of the House.

In the first place, I should like to say that I understand it has always been the practice to regard the introduction of Housing Bills as non-controversial from the point of view of Party politics and any criticisms I may wish to make I want to have it clearly understood are being made with that before me and not from a Party point of view. I think it was somewhat unfortunate that the Minister for Defence, when speaking in the House on the 14th May on the Finance Bill, did make a Party charge in regard to the provision of sites for local authorities housing about which I shall have a few words to say later on. But, in the main, it has always been, and properly so, the endeavour of all sides of the House to approach a Housing Bill without any regard to Party affiliations and without any regard to the natural anxiety that one must have to score Party points in an ordinary debate.

This Bill which is before us for a Second Reading made its appearance quite a short time ago in print after very much delay. I was indeed very relieved by the opening words of the Minister when he told us that the applications for grants for private building were such that he anticipates a slightly higher figure for the coming year. I am afraid, however, that that anticipation by him will not be realised because very many people to my own personal knowledge did defer the commencement of their building plans for the summer because they were waiting to see what the Government would do when the housing grants expired under the previous legislation on the 31st March last. Although the Minister did indicate one day here that the grants would be continued, people were inclined to hang back, and it would have been very much more beneficial so far as getting the work under way during the good weather is concerned if the Minister had introduced this Bill at an earlier date or, if he was unable to introduce the Bill itself, if he had indicated in a public way the exact nature of the grants that he was proposing to bring before the House.

I had a faint hope when the Bill was being delayed in that way that the delay was arising because the Minister was making some effort to consolidate the law in regard to housing. One has only to glance at Section 1 of this Bill to see that it refers to an enormous number of Acts commencing in 1890 and an enormous number of types of Acts which will at once convince anybody who was not already convinced, and I do not think there were many who needed convincing, that some type of consolidation or codification of housing legislation is necessary.

This Bill itself is an example of the unsatisfactory type of Bill that is introduced and normally classified as legislation by reference. To grasp the full effect of many provisions of the Bill you would want to have before you a list of the statutes as long as that bench and to travel from one to the other up and down the row. In order to be perfectly fair to the Minister, I must say that I realise that the task of consolidating or codifying the Housing Acts is a difficult one, but it is one which should be undertaken and which, if it is undertaken, would produce beneficial results.

I was disappointed that the Minister did not take the opportunity of the introduction of this Bill to give us some more general observations on the housing programme and on the progress of housing both by local authorities and private persons. February, 1948, was more or less the time when the housing position was considered after the end of the war. The new Act of 1948 had just become law and, as well as I can recollect, it was then estimated that we would want in this country approximately 100,000 houses and, of the 100,000 houses, that approximately 60 per cent. would have to be provided by local authorities and the balance by private building of one sort or another. I should like to know from the Minister whether he has found any reason in the years that have intervened to vary that estimate or whether he thinks that the estimate that was then made, and I think the figures I have given correctly summarises the estimate, is a fair and true one; and, if so, what prospect he sees of keeping on towards that target.

From time to time in the past year I have endeavoured by way of question to get particulars from the Minister of the progress being made in regard to local authority housing. I think the last figures which the Minister gave me are those in respect of the period ending in January last. In the month of January, 1952, there were 9,376 local authority houses in progress: 2,545 houses were at the stage at which tenders had been accepted or had been invited; and 2,031 were at the stage at which site development works were in progress. On the other hand, I notice that when the Minister took office in June, 1951, the number of houses in respect of which local authority site development work was in progress was, I think, 2,719. There has been a substantial decrease since that time. That decrease may be because certain local authorities feel that they have gone to the limit which their resources permit or because certain authorities feel that they have gone a fair distance towards completing the programme they had in mind. The position, so far as I can see, is that up to last June the number of houses for which development works were in progress—I am speaking purely of local authority housing; I do not think the statistics for private houses are available in anything like the same way— seems to have fluctated fairly steadily according to the period of the year and to have been at the highest figure in the summer. I have not got any figures for later than last January. I do not know if the Minister has got any more recent figures. If he has, I would ask him to give them to the House. I trust that the figures will be reassuring and will show us that, in respect of site development work, there has been an improvement on the position which existed in January last.

There is one essential not merely in local authority housing but also in private housing which I think the Minister and the House will agree is prerequisite to success in a housing drive. It is that there is a reasonably even flow of houses so that, as soon as one batch is completed, there are sites upon which the development work has concluded so that new building can take place immediately on those sites. That is necessary from the point of view both of labour and of the production of results. If there is not that even flow then, clearly, the labour teams will move elsewhere and, unfortunately, may go across the water. If there is not that even flow, there will be a very great loss in respect of taking advantage of good weather for building—weather such as we are having at present. It was for that reason that I was disappointed that the Minister did not bring in his Bill earlier.

I believe quite sincerely that there has been a diminution in the summer programme of private builders because of the delay in the introduction of this Bill. I believe that the figures in regard to the work on local authority housing show a diminution over the corresponding month of last year. I think that the figures in regard to the number of skilled men and the total labour force employed on local authority housing likewise show a reduction on those of last year. I should like to demonstrate the truth of that statement by the following figures. In January, 1951, the number of skilled men employed on local authority housing was 5,459. In January, 1952, that number had dropped to 5,096. I am taking the January figures in each case because it is the last month for which I have the figures. In January, 1951, the total number of men employed on housing was 11,539. In January, 1952, that number had dropped to 10,630. Again, those figures are in respect of local authority housing alone.

I was very surprised to read a report in the paper this morning which indicates that building tradesmen are optimistic about the progress of the building trade this summer. I hope it is true. If it is true, everybody will welcome it. Unfortunately, my information is to the contrary. When I say this I want it to be clear that I have no experience outside Dublin, Kildare and the surrounding areas. I do not know what the situation is in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Mayo and elsewhere. I am told by builders in Dublin and in Kildare that frequently skilled men, plasterers in particular, come to them asking for employment whereas formerly their difficulty was to get the skilled men when they got their contracts. I have no reason to doubt the word of the people who give me that information. I am quite certain they are telling me the truth. If that is the position, it would seem that the optimism which some people apparently feel, judging by this morning's paper, is not as likely to be justified as every one of us would wish.

I am told that even apart from the existing position in regard to private building there is a worse prospect for the latter six months of the financial year, that is, for the autumn. It was put to me not so very long ago by builders who were representative of a certain type of building in Dublin City that in their view the position in May of this year compared more or less with the position ordinarily obtaining in October and that they were starting the summer with not more activity than they would, in the ordinary way, expect to start the winter. They told me, further, that so far as they could see from site development for private building, it was extremely doubtful whether the position would be even as satisfactory next October and that it was far more likely that it would be substantially worse. I hope that is not the case.

I hope that we will see no diminution whatsoever in the building of houses. The near stagnation some of them seem to think there is in the trade arises partly because they did not know in sufficient time what the Minister's plans were and partly because it is an offshoot of the policy adopted by the Minister for Finance since last July and which has created such an air of uneasiness throughout the whole business community and the whole economic life of the people.

Most of us, I think, were bitterly disappointed, when we read this Bill, to find that the Minister had kept the grants for new houses static. It is, I think, undeniable that the cost of building has risen since the beginning of 1948. It is, I imagine, obvious to everybody that the increases that have taken place in timber costs will mean dearer houses and, therefore, to some extent, it will mean that certain people who were going to build will not now build because of that increase in cost.

During two recent debates this House heard frequent references to the Budget that was introduced by Mr. Butler across the water and the Minister for Finance was accused of having copied that Budget. I need hardly say that I am not going to reopen that debate but I say it was unfortunate that the Minister did not follow, in relation to housing grants, the example that was set across the way when grants were increased and when interest rates rose.

The increase in interest rates will obviously mean greater expense for the builder. It will mean greater expense for every type of supply quite apart from the extra costs of the materials themselves because people who have to keep supplies on hands for a considerable time will obviously have to pay for those supplies and in paying for them they will have to pay in a dearer fashion for the accommodation they will get.

We had hoped that, when the Minister would introduce this measure, he would have been able to increase the grant to offset to some degree the increase there had been in costs. I am told by two people who are in the trade —I give this with a certain amount of personal reserve because I do not know enough about the trade to speak from my own experience—that the increase since the beginning of 1948 on building costs is almost one-third. I understand, too, that there has been a change in regard to the supply of timber. I would like to know from the Minister whether it is correct that there has been a new method adopted by the builders' providers which means that no builders' providers can supply timber at a figure under that which is fixed by the providers themselves? There was, I understand, until recently at least one very large firm which supplied timber at a price varying between 10 per cent. and 20 per cent. below the price of other suppliers in the City of Dublin and, in consequence of recent action, the effect now is that this supplier is on the same level as all the others; that they are all in the position of supplying at the same fixed price and that none of them is allowed to go below it. I would like the Minister to indicate whether he has any information on that and whether he has any views as to the manner in which that can be remedied if it is a fact.

I agree with what the Minister states about grants in one section of his speech in relation to the purchasers of houses because we must consider the purchases but the purchasers will not be purchasers unless the builders are there to build the houses for them to purchase. One of the items of increased costs which purchasers will have to meet is the increase in building societies' rates of interest. I am told that the rates have been raised by building societies. Naturally, I suppose building societies have to get their capital and have to provide that the capital which they lend is lent out at a sufficient margin to cover what they have to pay in order to get the capital. That is natural and obvious.

My only regret is that the offset to that increase is not met by the introduction of a larger grant and that the grant which has been introduced in this Bill is the same static grant as it was when interest rates were lower. So far as the building societies themselves are concerned, may I make it clear not merely for myself but for every member on this side of the House in Fine Gael that we entirely agree that those societies fulfil a very desirable and useful function and that in their continued expansion they will be fulfilling an even more useful function in the future? At the same time, I wonder whether it might not be possible to supplement their work with some type of central lending governmental agency particularly now that interest rates have increased.

There may not have been before, perhaps, the same necessity but with the increase in bank interest rates and with the concomitant increase that a financial institution in private hands such as a building society must have, I think there would be a case now to consider at any rate the setting up of a central lending agency such as I understand they have in Australia, New Zealand and Canada, to mention three countries.

I would like the Minister to give us some indication in regard to local authority housing as to what his policy will be in relation to the employment of direct labour or the contract system. I would like him to tell us whether he accepts the position that there is now very much greater competition for housing tenders than there was in the past and whether it is, therefore, necessary and desirable that local authorities should supplement their building programme by private contract by erecting houses through the medium of direct labour. The direct labour system was undoubtedly very necessary at a time when tenders for building were at a very low ebb. There was a time when it was not very easy to get any number of tenders. So far as our experience in Kildare is concerned any time we advertise a group of houses at the moment we get many more tenders as compared with what we got hitherto. I think that must show that there is some decline in the volume of building work available because, if there were not such a decline, it is unlikely that people would be so anxious to tender. It may be that that is due to certain extraneous circumstances. I do not know whether that is so, but the Minister is in a position, because of the information that is available to him in his Department, to tell the House whether or not it is so.

So far as the specific provisions of the Bill are concerned, I have considerable difficulty in appreciating what exactly is intended in relation to some of them. No doubt we shall have a clearer picture on the Committee Stage. As I understand the position, however, under the provision in regard to supplementary grants by local authorities the existing power under the 1950 Act will go when this Bill becomes law. That power will go under sub-section (3) of Section 5 in respect of every grant which has not been notified to an applicant before the 29th April which was, I think, the date on which this Bill was printed. That will cause considerable hardship in Kildare. The grants provided in this Bill will be considerably less in many instances than those provided under the earlier Act. I think it was a wise policy to encourage by grant private individuals to build their own houses. The Minister has now decided that it is necessary to rationalise local authority grants over the whole country. From the Minister's point of view I can see great force in that argument. It is undesirable to have different local authorities dealing with the matter in different ways.

The practice in Kildare was that we drew up our scheme and had it sanctioned by the Minister. We then invited applications for grants under that scheme. Having got those applications we analysed them in relation to the Minister's decision that we could not borrow from the Local Loans Fund except for a certain type of applicant—in other words, for the type of applicant for whom we would normally be responsible for providing houses. Having verified the income provisions and the governmental grant equivalent position and having analysed the applications to see whether they came within the type for which the Minister would permit us to borrow from the Local Loans Fund, we then approved the list of applicants. The county council having approved the list, we then proceeded to adopt the plan of making arrangements to get the money. No specific notification was sent out to any applicant. Those who were waiting ascertained that their grant had been made available and proceeded to make their plans.

As I understand sub-section (3)—I am open to correction on the matter —where applicants have got no formal notification from the appropriate local authority under Section 5 they will not now be entitled to a grant under the 1950 Act and will be forced to wait for such a grant under this Act. I do not think that is what the Minister intended. I think he intended to provide that the method would change and that the scheme would change, and that any future schemes adopted by county councils would be under this Bill rather than under any other. I would appeal to him to reconsider the matter. I take it we shall have an opportunity of discussing it more fully on the Committee Stage.

In relation to grants for farmers, the Minister has taken a more limited view under Section 9 than we took. I think the limits are too low. I put it to the Minister that the valuation of a farm is not the only test of whether or not a farmer is able to build a house. The valuation limits in the measure now before us vary from £12 10s. to £27 10s. There may be a farm with £20 valuation. It may be held by a widow whose husband suffered a very long illness prior to his death. The Minister knows, and I give him credit for appreciating this far more than I do, that such an illness very often breaks a family. The family may have to go into substantial debt to meet the costs of the illness. It may have had to go into debt for certain other purposes. The holder of a farm with a valuation of £30 carrying a substantial debt is in a much worse position than is the man with a smaller valuation who holds his land free and unencumbered. I would appeal to the Minister to permit local authorities to adopt an alternative and to include a provision leaving an alternative open to a farmer so that if his valuation is over the limit and he can show that he has substantial mortgaged overheads he can get credit for those by way of a deduction against income and in that way bring himself within the limits that are provided in relation to a person, as specified in Section 10, other than a farmer. I can see that there may be a little difficulty in drafting such a provision but I do urge on the Minister the desirability of considering such an amendment.

There has been, as the Minister indicated in his speech on the Bill, a substantial difference of opinion in Dublin City, more than anywhere else, in regard to the limit on loans under the Small Dwellings Act. The provision under the 1950 Act was that a person had to put up at least 5 per cent. himself. In Dublin, they had no supplementary local authority housing scheme. The provision which the Minister has now put in this Bill of a loan limit of £1,800 under the Small Dwellings Act is, I suggest, practically the equivalent of raising the limit, computed under the old way, from £2,000 to £2,185. As I see the position it is this. You have a £1,800 loan. You add to it the £275, maximum Government grant, making the figure £2,075. Now on a £2,200 house the applicant will have to put up £110 himself. If you add the £110 to the £2,075 you get the figure of £2,185. That is the way that I have made up my figure of £2,185. As I understand it, therefore, the effect of Part VI of the Bill is only to raise the ceiling limit in Dublin by £200 or a few pounds less.

I know the Minister will reply to me at once and say that there is no ceiling limit on the value of a house included in this Bill. There is not in theory, but there is in practice, because the ceiling limit is obviously governed, in nine-tenths of the Small Dwellings Act cases, by the amount of the deposit which the applicant can put down. If the applicant cannot put down a sufficient deposit to cover the price of the house, then the fact that, theoretically, there is no ceiling limit on the value of the house, does not make very much practical difference to the person who is looking for a home for himself and wants to borrow from the Dublin Corporation under the Small Dwellings Act.

Frankly, I think that, so far as the country is concerned, the limit of £1,600 provided by the Bill is adequate. I have no experience myself of big towns such as Drogheda, but, speaking for the ordinary rural area and for towns of a size such as we have in the County Kildare, I think that the limit of £1,600 provided by the new method adopted by the Minister in this Bill is sufficient. I do not, however, think that the amount of £1,800 provided by the Bill, in respect of Dublin, Dún Laoghaire and Cork, is adequate. I am of opinion that that is the case so far as Dublin and Dún Laoghaire are concerned. I always hesitate to say anything which concerns the capital of the South because I know that, regardless of Party, if any of us say anything about Cork which the Cork Deputies may not approve of, we will have them down on us like a pack of wolves. I have no doubt that, if the Cork Deputies think that sum does not suit them, they will tell the Minister so, and that they are well able to express their feelings in no uncertain manner. But as I say, so far as Dublin and Dún Laoghaire are concerned, the amount in my opinion is not sufficient and should be increased somewhat.

In regard to the provision of supplementary grants by local authorities, I observe that the word "may" is used. Therefore, I take it that it is a permissive word, and that it is not intended to be mandatory on local authorities to make supplementary grants available. I have no doubt whatever that, so far as Kildare is concerned, we will do it. The Dublin Corporation has not done it up to this. Whether the local authority is going to make a supplementary grant or not, you must consider the provision there is as regards the minimum rate under the Small Dwellings Act. I understand there is also a provision in Dublin that small dwellings loans are not given to applicants who have less than, I think, £7 10s. a week. If that figure is maintained by the corporation then it will equally have this effect: to make the provision in Section 10 as regards lower rates of supplementary grants applicable in every case where there is a small dwellings loan also being sought by the applicant.

I do not quite understand how the Minister is going to work in his provision in Section 7 as regards grants for the installation of private water supplies. A scheme is already in operation, under the Department of Agriculture, for the provision of water supplies to farmers' houses. As I understand it, the scheme under the Department of Agriculture only operates so far as a grant is necessary to bring the water to one point in the house. I take it that it is not intended that people will be entitled to get one grant from the Department of Local Government and another grant from the Department of Agriculture. If that was going to be the good news the Minister would not have hesitated to tell us about it before now. I should like him to tell us if the grant under the Department of Agriculture is now going to be withdrawn, or how he intends his grant to tie in, so to speak, with the grant given under the scheme operated by the Department of Agriculture.

Perhaps the Minister, when concluding, would also be able to give us the most recent figures he has in regard to the pool of sites now available for further local authority building. The Minister has taken power in this Bill— I think it is in Section 32 of the Bill— to give additional powers to local authorities by way of acquisition. In my view, the powers which the Minister is suggesting are reasonable ones. I only mention that to remind the Minister in a humorous way of an incident which took place not very long ago when he was seated on this side of the House.

The present Minister for Finance, then Deputy MacEntee, tiraded about the powers in the 1950 Act for the acquisition of land for housing purposes. The present Minister for Local Government joined the present Minister for Finance going up the steps of the Division Lobby to vote against these powers. I am very glad to see that the Minister has not, in this Bill, gone back to the position as it operated before 1950, and I am delighted to see that, by not altering the position in this Bill, he has adopted the section as then included. Every member of this House, whether he be in the Opposition or otherwise, will welcome this Bill. We will have a better opportunity on the Committee Stage of going into the detailed provisions of it.

I welcome this Bill. It appears to me to be a very good Bill, following closely on the lines and principles of the housing legislation of 1948 and of 1950. Some amendments. which the operation of previous measures probably found essential, in order to ensure proper working, have been included. I feel that this measure will pass speedily through this House and that it will have a good effect on house building in the country which, unquestionably, it is to be regretted, has shown evidence of flagging in recent months. In my view, it is very early in the housing drive for the flagging which is in evidence at the present time throughout the country. A very considerable number of skilled operatives in the housing industry are now unemployed. That is to be regretted, because the danger is that, being idle, they will emigrate, making it difficult for us to mobilise a skilled team when we want to get housing going again at the intensity it needs until the housing problem has been solved. In Limerick City, which is a comparatively small city, there are more than 150 carpenters idle.

I have not got the exact figures for Dublin City, but I am told there are between 500 and 600 carpenters idle here. Plasterers, who were as scarce as radium a few years ago, are now unemployed in large numbers. I trust that this Bill will be passed quickly through this House and will ensure that the housing drive gets into full swing again, thus providing the employment for our people at home which some of them are driven to seek in England and elsewhere.

There are some very enterprising amendments in the present Bill which appeal to me, for instance, the extension of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts loans. I believe that this is very desirable, because people wishing to build at the present time are finding it difficult to borrow money. In my view, the extension of the loans under the present Bill will act as an incentive to people who are inclined to build. In that respect, there may be some misconception. In the Bill I have found no evidence of an increase in the floor area for grant purposes or whether it will be possible to get an increased figure for higher-priced houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts.

The Sunday Press, dated the 4th May, 1952, says:—

"Loans, Houses Will Be Bigger

If you feel uneasy about having that extra bedroom in your new house—forget your worries. And if the thought of a £2,500 bill staggers you—well, there's good news around the corner. If you're a builder, look for better times. The same applies if you're a farmer, a labourer, a social worker—or just a ratepayer.

But a note of warning: everything depends on the safe passage through Dáil and Seanad of a piece of legislation called the Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1952.

For the man who wants a new house, biggest feature of the Bill is this: he can be more generous in his floor space and in the number of his rooms—and still qualify for a local authority loan.

Example: an eight-roomed house built three months ago at a cost of £2,500 would not qualify for a small dwellings loan. Now a man building the same kind of house will be able to claim a £1,600 local authority loan (£1,800 in Dublin City and environs), plus a Department grant of £275— and possibly an extra grant of £275 from the local body. . . ."

If that is so, I suggest that it is not in the Bill. At least, I have failed to find it in the Bill. People are very eager to know about the legislation items of the various Bills. Deputies will agree with me that their constituents are always asking: "What is this Act going to give us? What does this Act provide?" If this Bill provides increased floor area for grant purposes, I would be very glad to know it, but I have not discovered it in the Bill. At the present time a grant will not be allowed for a floor area in excess of 1,400 square feet. When the public see, in the Sunday Press—their oracle—the statement I have read out above, they are inclined to believe it, but I would like to hear from the Minister himself as to whether or not it is correct.

That brings me to another item which appeared in the same oracle—the Sunday Press—on the 16th March, 1952. It runs as follows:—

"Mr. Robert Briscoe, T.D., chairman of the Dublin Corporation Finance Committee, when asked by the Sunday Press to comment on statements by Deputies Larkin and MacBride in the Dáil during the week that a `sharp decline' was expected in corporation housing in 1953 said:—

‘The expected decline in housing in the city in 1953 is due to unwarranted interference with the corporation's housing plans by the Coalition Government of which Mr. MacBride was a member.

‘About two years ago,' he continued, ‘Mr. Keyes, Minister for Local Government in the Coalition, ordered the Government to depart from the normal line of planning which was aimed at building 2,500 municipal houses and flats and approximately 500 houses by the granting of loans to people who would build or buy their own houses.

‘At that time,' said Mr. Briscoe, ‘the corporation warned the Coalition Minister that his Order would mean the holding up of corporation housing from six to nine months. In spite of that warning the Coalition Minister continued to interfere with the corporation.

‘If the corporation builds 1,000 less houses next year, Mr. MacBride and his colleagues are responsible and not the corporation. Mr. MacBride is obviously ignorant of the Dublin position. His poor vote at the last general election proves that his constituents realise that.'"

I am not really concerned with Deputy MacBride's influence with the electorate of South-West Dublin, but I want to characterise that statement as being untrue. I, when Minister for Local Government, and the Department of Local Government co-operated to the fullest degree with the Dublin Corporation and with every other housing authority in the country to keep the housing drive going with all possible speed, and we placed no barriers in its way.

Deputy Briscoe speaks about a circular issued by me, when Minister for Local Government, two years ago mentioning loans being granted to people who would build or buy their own houses. The Deputy was talking through his hat, because nobody could buy a house by means of a grant until the 1950 Act was introduced and had become law. The circular to which he refers was not issued by me, but a circular was issued in 1951 which was last year—not two years ago.

We are aware of the powers which the Department of Local Government can exercise on building by local authorities; the local authorities have to comply with the Town Planning Acts, and they are asked to submit draft plans. If anybody in this House believes that a circular issued in January, 1950, asking Dublin Corporation to submit draft plans of the proposed areas upon which they are going to build is going to show an effect in fewer houses being built in 1953, they would be more credulous than I believe the people of this House to be. I do not like that idea of cheap scoring. I have never tried to have any cheap scoring about this matter of house building because I think it is above and beyond that. It is not right for Deputy Briscoe in his important position as Deputy in this House and chairman of the Finance Committee to indulge himself in that favourite pastime and hobby. It might have reactions that would be detrimental to what we are all desirous of bringing to fruition, better housing at the earliest possible date.

Deputy Briscoe was correcting the impression given by a statement made by Deputy MacBride, accusing the present Government of holding up the housing drive. It was your circular in 1951 which was responsible for that.

I am merely making a statement in regard to a quotation from the Sunday Press as it relates to myself.

Deputy Briscoe was quite correct.

He can answer for himself.

Has this any bearing on the Bill before the House?

It has a bearing on truth.

I welcome the improvement which the making of reconstruction grants will involve in so far as they can now be applied to houses in excess of 1,400 feet. This will be of immense benefit in regard to big houses throughout the country, rambling old buildings which were allowed to go into disrepair. It often happened that these houses, although they were in need of repair, when found to extend more than 1,400 feet, did not qualify for a grant and people were compelled to keep on living in them in their derelict state. Now that it is possible for people owning houses in excess of 1,400 feet to obtain reconstruction grants they will be able to put their houses into decent repair, which could not have been done if the area clause had not been removed.

I welcome that improvement in the Bill and believe it will have a very beneficial effect particularly in regard to the extension of the amount from £80 to £100 and £120. The operation of the reconstruction grant has proved to be very efficacious. It has saved many people from having to build new houses. The alterations that it will be possible to effect will improve the appearance and the durability of the houses and will redound to the advantage of the community by saving much money in the housing drive. It will give an opportunity of getting full value from the old houses. Many people like to preserve the old home if they are in a position to put it into decent repair.

I welcome the section as brought in here to extend the repair grants to rural areas as had been operative in the city and urban areas. It is regrettable that the relevant clause in the 1937 Act has been very little used. It has been allowed to go into desuetude so that a lot of people are unaware of its existence. It was a very useful provision. Buildings in very many areas which have gone into disrepair can be improved. This will lead to a brighter and better appearance in the streets and towns in these areas. It would benefit the small towns and enable the section to have a more widespread application.

There is one point about which I should like to make an inquiry, that is, in connection with the letting grants. I have a kind of natural horror of retrospective legislation. I do not like certain types of retrospective legislation and, I think, the Minister and myself had discussions on that in other respects some years ago. However, I do not intend to be very hostile to the retrospective legislation dealing with payment of letting grants by local authorities. In the past I am aware that some local authorities played fast and loose with that provision in so far as they made a grant of 1/- or some insignificant amount, which was carrying out the provisions of the Act to the letter rather than in the spirit in which it was intended. I believe that is probably what inspired the Minister in this connection and I agree with him that, if legislation is on the Statute Book, certain abuses might be avoided. In a way, it is hardly fair to leave it to some individual council to play fast and loose and perhaps offer an insult rather than a grant. The person is either entitled to the grant or he is not, and this grant is a voluntary offering by the local authority. If the Minister takes authority to compel them to pay what he thinks they should pay and goes back and makes it retrospective, we may be going one shade too far. There is a happy medium between one and the other. I think the position is a little bit too elastic at the moment. It might not be desirable that the Minister should take power to compel local authorities, that he should have the last word of appeal, and not alone that, but be able to deal with the question retrospectively.

I suggest this calls for a little bit of examination. On the other hand, I am not entirely opposed to the idea. If legislation proposes that local authorities should give letting grants they ought to give them and it should not be possible for some local authority to offer an insult instead of a grant. However, this occurrence is, I imagine, exceptional. The majority of the local authorities are inclined to dispense grants fairly and equitably. I would be opposed to the Minister taking too much power and compelling them to pay so-and-so, not alone currently but retrospectively. On the whole, I believe the Bill is going to be a very good measure in speeding up the housing drive. I recommend that it should have a speedy passage through the House and I wish it every success.

I agree with Deputy Sweetman that there is a great need for the consolidation of housing legislation here. As he said, when we got this Bill it was necessary to go through all the previous Acts. It was an impossible task. For instance, I have spent hours trying to get some clause that would define for me the "working classes". I understand that it is defined in the 1908 Act. I was very interested in the definition of the working classes. We should have something done to have this legislation consolidated.

I would like to see something on the lines of the Defence Bill in connection with which a special committee was set up. I must say there was a tremendous amount of work done, and done well. If we could find Deputies here interested in building, in the legal profession and others who are on local bodies, I feel they would be doing a great deal of good for the country in producing a worth-while Bill.

To my mind the main feature of this Bill as far as Dublin is concerned is the wider scope that it will give to the Dublin Corporation in dealing with their overcrowding cases and their tuberculous cases. There is no need to go into the problem here because it is well known. There are members of the corporation who are also Deputies in this House. They have longer experience on these matters than I have. I am sure they will speak on these problems and they will certainly give valuable information. This Bill will help a great deal in dealing with cases of overcrowding and tuberculous cases. Some time ago the Dublin Corporation inserted an advertisement in the papers asking persons to make new applications; we got thousands and thousands of applications. It has put many people who were tuberculous cases living in two and three rooms far back on the list because we could not deal with them. From the quick glance I have had at this Bill, I am sure that we will be able to do a lot more for them.

There is one point about which I am not quite clear. Under Section 10, a man may obtain the maximum grant from a local authority where he has an income of £4 a week. Surely it is obvious that if a man earning £4 a week gets the maximum grant it will be impossible for him to repay any loan under the Small Dwellings Acts. I do not think it is right to place temptation, as we are doing, in the way of such an applicant. Where a man's family income does not exceed £208, he may get 100 per cent of the relevant grant and, to my mind, that is not playing the game with a man who would be tempted to take such a grant. Then, a man with a family income of £416 may get 33? per cent. of £275 and yet, under Section 11, a person with unlimited income may qualify for 50 per cent. of the relevant grant which is £137 10s. These two sections will lead to endless confusion because the local authorities have to define the working classes. The solution probably would be to combine the two sections and make a clear-cut and rigid statement as to who is entitled to the grants.

I note that the maximum advance in respect of any house shall be £1,800 in the case of Dublin City and County and Cork City. Somebody has said that if one speaks about Cork, one will bring the Cork Deputies on one's heels, but they will agree with me in this matter. The Bill confines this provision to the City of Cork, but, from my experience, there are no sites in the City of Cork and therefore, if a man applies for a grant in respect of a site outside, he cannot get it. The Cork Deputies will probably speak on this as well, but I do not know of any sites in the City of Cork, from my experience in business. Mayfield, I think, was the last one.

That is correct.

It may appear strange that a Dublin Deputy should talk about Cork, but I think that is a flaw in the Bill, that an applicant should be brought down to £1,600 if he is outside the City of Cork. I understand that the borough limits have not been extended, so that if he is outside the County Borough of Cork, he gets £1,600 and if he is inside, £1,800. The Minister would be well advised to look into that point. It is a pity to keep the man outside the city down to £1,600 because the extra £200 would be of great benefit to him.

The Deputy is quite correct and that aspect of it has been submitted to the Minister.

I was not aware of that. I am stating my own personal experience of Cork and elsewhere.

Mention was made of the work of building societies and it will be generally agreed that building societies and insurance companies have played their part in providing finance for people to build and purchase their homes. During the war particularly, when insurance companies and particularly British insurance companies, had to stop lending money here, the building societies came to the fore and helped people to buy their houses. The matter of interest was also mentioned and it will be appreciated in that connection that building societies and other such organisations have to be careful with their investors' money. They are not lending their own money but the money of other people and they have to be more than careful. They would like to lend money at a much cheaper rate if they could get it more cheaply and the Department of Finance might help in this matter because the Revenue Commissioners take a considerable amount in income-tax. These societies are very heavily taxed and it is one of the reasons why their rate of interest is slightly higher than the rate charged by others. It will be agreed, however, that they have played their part in the housing drive. I know that Deputy Hickey is an authority on finance——

Let us have no more of that cynicism, Deputy.

I have read some of the Deputy's pamphlets on housing finance and I must say that they are quite good. It is a pity they are not more widely circulated in Dublin.

Why do you not order a few copies?

I have them; some of them even autographed by Deputy Hickey. As I say, these societies and insurance companies have played their part and I am sure they will do the same again. Some of the insurance companies have given money to the Dublin Corporation at a very low rate of interest, and were it not for some of the insurance companies some of the big housing schemes in Dublin would not now exist, or if they did they would cost the corporation much more.

That is a doubtful compliment to our own Governments.

I am stating facts and giving my own views. Mention was also made previously of the Small Dwellings Act loans. There are complaints—and they are still coming along—that it takes far too long for a loan under the Small Dwellings Acts to be approved. For the life of me I cannot see why that is so. When an application comes to a local body the usual thing is that a surveyor is sent to check up on the site, the plans, and so on. There is, with the application, proof of income, and everything in connection with the applicant is set out. I cannot see why these loans are so slow in coming through and the Minister would be well advised to see if it is possible to expedite them. It is a great drawback to applicants and builders, who find great difficulty in meeting their commitments because of the hold-up. We have been told that in the case of the Dublin County Council it was a question of staff. They had not got sufficient legal staff. I hope that that has been rectified now. Every effort should be made to speed up the payment of the loans.

It was mentioned here that the £275 grant should be increased. I am in full agreement with that suggestion, especially when I think of the work which could be done with an increased grant. In these difficult times, it is not easy for the State to finance social welfare, old age pensions and everything else; but they should try to do this, if at all possible. It will have to be increased eventually, as building costs are going up. The £275 is inadequate at the moment, and as time goes on it will become of less use, so every effort should be made at some stage to increase it.

Deputy Keyes mentioned the circular issued in January, 1951. I take off my hat to him for the amount of work he did during his time as Minister—and his predecessor before him— in the housing drive. No one can deny that they did a good job of work, and they deserve the best credit possible. That circular went out in January, 1951. The statement made by Deputy Briscoe was in reply to a statement made by Deputy MacBride, who said that there was a drop in the production of houses in Dublin, caused by the Fianna Fáil Government. Deputy MacBride was speaking somewhere down the country, not in Dublin. It is a pity he was not speaking in Dublin, as some of his colleagues in Clann na Poblachta in the Dublin Corporation might have told him the correct reason.

We cannot have that discussed now.

It was Deputy MacBride who said that it was the Fianna Fáil Government that slowed us up. I do not say that Dublin Corporation was blameless in the matter. They did not take the circular seriously, as they should have taken it. They thought it applied only to the poor fellows down the country.

The circular cannot be discussed on this Housing Bill.

It would be as well to have that made clear, as far as Deputy Keyes is concerned. The Minister should also clarify the position regarding the payment of supplementary grants under Section 7 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950. Perhaps he could state if this grant may be paid by a local authority to persons who commenced building on or before 29th April, 1952. I feel that this is important. I have heard that local authorities have held up payments, awaiting such a direction. When concluding the debate the Minister might clarify the position.

Like Deputy Keyes, I commend the Bill to the House and I believe there should be no delay in passing it through. While it is not as much as one would like, it is a step in the right direction. As far as Dublin is concerned, it will help regarding slum clearance and tuberculous cases and in Dublin we welcome it wholeheartedly.

I should like to say right away that in this type of legislation I do not think it is necessary to go to the trouble of codifying all our housing legislation. I think we have just to progress step by step and year by year, benefiting by the experience and introducing a Housing (Amendment) Bill whenever we find there is necessity for it.

Undoubtedly, this Bill is an advance on previous Bills and contains provisions which should assist materially in the maintenance and acceleration of the housing drive. In so far as it makes provision for reconstruction in the rural areas, it will do very valuable work. When listening to Deputy Keyes, I was in some doubt as to whether the floor space of 1,450 square feet for grant houses is going to be altered by the Bill. I was asked the other day if that were still the limitation or if it goes by the board in this Bill, and I would be glad if the Minister would clear that point up so that there would be no doubt in regard to it.

Local authorities—and particularly a large local authority like the Dublin Corporation—are vitally interested in any Bill that deals with housing, that helps or accelerates the provision of new houses. We have an enormous problem in Dublin, which has been tackled very successfully during the last 20 years by the Dublin Corporation, with the assistance of the Government. We are now in a position in Dublin where we have approximately 30,000 dwellings owned by the Corporation— 30,000 dwellings as between houses and flats—and if we carry out our programme we shall build another 10,000, between flats and houses, in the next four years. Even if we do build that 10,000, we still have a target of perhaps another 20,000, in flats and houses, to be built. When that is reached after eight or ten years, there will probably be a new target, since a considerable portion of Dublin is decaying, and while it is good enough just at the moment, in 15 or 20 years' time it will present the then corporation with a new headache and a new problem.

I have considered, as has the Dublin Corporation, whether Dublin is able to carry such an enormous number of houses and flats on a rental basis. We find in our city finances that we must make provision to the extent of £10 per house for repairs. That is a very substantial bill, which will grow bigger as the years go on. If houses were owned by the tenants, if a scheme were in operation whereby the ownership could be transferred to the tenants, the local authority—in this case, the Dublin Corporation—would save the cost of maintaining, as a lot of the maintenance work that is now being done by the local authorities would be done by the occupiers or owners themselves. I think everyone agrees that that would be a most desirable thing.

In the Dublin Corporation we have passed a resolution authorising our officials to make arrangements for the transfer of ownership of houses, where convenient schemes may be arranged, to the present occupiers. I was hoping that within this Housing (Amendment) Bill provision would be made for the speedy transfer of ownership in those cases. I understand from our city officials that some legislative authority is necessary, and I was hoping that it would be included in this Bill. I would ask the Minister to consider that as a very serious and urgent problem, to be dealt with by another amending Bill as early as possible.

One of the difficulties facing a corporation and, I am sure, any local authority, is the delay that takes place between the decision to acquire property on which to build and actual acquisition of that property. If there could be some shortening of that interval it would be of great help to local authorities. In Dublin, during the past four years, we have been building, on a rough average, 2,500 dwellings a year. Some of us who were elected to the corporation a couple of years ago have been endeavouring to speed up that programme and to reach a target of 3,000 houses a year. We were very surprised when we were told in February of this year, by our officials —that was the first intimation we got —that, owing to the shortage of sites, our programme would drop to 1,500 houses next year. That is a very serious matter from the point of view of Dublin. It is serious in that there will be a shortage of 1,000 houses; it is serious in that the workers who would have been employed in building that extra 1,000 houses will not be employed, and it is serious from a number of other points of view.

There has been condemnation of the Government and of the Minister in regard to that. As a member of the Dublin Corporation, I want to say that to a large extent the blame rests on the Dublin Corporation. If that is the position, it is only right that is should be acknowledged. It is the easiest thing in the world to blame the Minister or his predecessor and it is quite right to blame them if they are at fault but I, personally, have come to the conclusion, and I have so stated in the Dublin Corporation, that the fault is ours. We were led up the garden in regard to sites. We were not told until February of this year that there would be a shortage of sites so that only 1,500 houses could be built next year. A further difficulty is that, in my opinion, 1,500 houses are a most optimistic figure and I have grave doubts that it will be reached next year.

We are engaged in a programme of flat-building. Last week there was a special meeting of the corporation at which was sanctioned a programme of 22,500 flats to be built in a period of five years. The Minister has given us sanction for the first group of flats which will be erected on the North Strand, on part of the bombed site. Our programme of 500 flats a year can be achieved if we get the co-operation of the Minister and his Department. As far as we are concerned we will put our cards on the table and will explain our difficulties frankly and fully to the Minister. Our experience in recent months has been, as a result of interviews we have had with the Minister, that any obstructions or anything in the way of our progress is being removed.

To enable us to go ahead with that scheme to build 2,500 flats in five years, we need the co-operation and help of the Minister and the officials of his Department. I would ask that Dublin Corporation and the officials of the Dublin Corporation should get that co-operation and help wholeheartedly.

One of the serious matters that arose from the fact that Dublin Corporation had made no provision in the last few years for sites was the decision of the corporation to enter on an estate at Clontarf known as St. Anne's Estate, for the purpose of building houses. St. Anne's Estate was acquired by the Dublin Corporation as a public park. That was the intention when it was acquired. It is in the centre of a residential district, in the centre of a number of housing areas in which there are thousands of houses and thousands of people living in them. As a result of the shortage of sites, the Dublin Corporation decided to build houses on this estate.

I consider that undesirable from many points of view. Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent in bringing that park to its present state of beauty, in planting trees, in cultivating flowers, developing gardens and paths. It is tragic that such a magnificent park should be mutilated and destroyed simply because our officials in the Dublin Corporation or the Dublin Corporation did not take steps to have alternative sites made available.

The Deputy is travelling a bit outside the scope of the Bill.

I am dealing with that aspect of sites.

I am sure the Deputy could get another opportunity to discuss it more relevantly.

Perhaps. I sincerely hope that if there is any attempt at further mutilation of that park it will not be sanctioned by the Minister.

As I have said, I welcome this Bill as a further step in the housing drive. When one compares the Ireland of to-day with the Ireland of 25 or 30 years ago, one notices a tremendous improvement in housing. All our villages are bright and clean. All over the landscape there are tens of thousands of new houses. It can be safely said that this generation is doing its part in regard to housing. A Bill such as this, which helps to continue that good work, certainly recommends itself to me and, I am sure, to every member of the Dáil.

I welcome any measure which tends to improve the housing position, because I know that the first essential for a family is a decent house. I regard this measure as a clarification of the 1950 Act rather than as an advance on that Act. When the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950, was brought into operation, a number of people, knowing that supplementary grants could be made available under Section 7, built houses.

I would like a clarification of their present position. During the past year or more the local authority of which I am a member, Cork County Council, have discussed this particular section but so far we have failed to adopt it. The question does not arise now as that section is being repealed. What will be the position of people who built houses on the assumption that they would benefit by that section? Will the provisions of this Bill be made retrospective and will those people be covered by the provision in respect of the supplementary grants in this Bill? It is only right that they should be because those who have built houses since August, 1950, did so on the assumption that both grants would be available.

I observe that Section 10 provides that "a housing authority may make. to or in respect of a person (other than a farmer) in respect of a house for which a relevant grant is made, a grant of an amount equal to, if his family income does not exceed £208, 100 per cent. of the relevant grant". Then the scale of grants decreases as the income increases. I think that, having regard to present money values, the limits of income mentioned in Section 10 are altogether inadequate. A person or a family with an income in excess of £416 is completely cut out from any of these grants. Take the case of an old married couple, each in receipt of the old age pension, whose two sons are working on the roads or for a small wage in some other capacity. The income of that household would exceed £416 and the family would be completely cut away from the benefits of that particular section. I would appeal to the Minister, having regard to the present money values, that the income limits specified in paragraphs (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of Section 10 should be increased by at least 50 per cent.

A previous speaker referred to the question of payment by local authorities of grants to societies or bodies who built houses for letting purposes. That has been a bone of contention with many local authorities. As mentioned by Deputy Keyes, some of these societies have received only nominal contributions from the local authority —and rightly so—to comply with the terms of the Act. I think that, under Section 16 of this Bill, the Minister is taking unto himself a power which is more or less dictatorial—at least that is my reading of the section—and he is leaving no power whatsoever with the local authority to determine whether or not a particular society would be entitled to benefit under that section. We, in the local authorities, will have to provide an amount approximating to one-third of the total expenditure involved, and I believe that under this section any of those bodies who will appeal against an adverse decision of the local authority to the Minister are assured that their appeal will be upheld. I think that this is a question that merits more consideration because I know that some of these bodies who have built houses with a view to getting these grants have let these houses at a figure which, if anything, is in excess of the economic rent. Taking that fact into account, if these societies let houses at a rent in excess of the economic rent I do not see why the local authority should be compelled to give them the benefits of the Act. I know that in my own constituency that has happened and I think it is unfair to cut out the local authority from any discretion whatsoever in the matter. Possibly the Minister may see his way to introduce some amendments to this section or to clarify the position somewhat better on the Committee Stage.

So far as new house grants are concerned, there has been a good deal of misunderstanding as to the interpretation of the old Acts which govern these grants. I know myself of a number of applications in which the merits of the applicants were somewhat the same, but while some of these applicants succeeded in getting reduced new house grants of approximately £200, other applicants could get only the reconstruction grants of £80. I think that the position in regard to these grants should be clarified because a certain amount of annoyance has been caused to people who believed they were entitled to the reduced new house grants, and who found afterwards that they could not get them.

It has been my experience that a great deal of delay has taken place in the inspection of houses and in the payment of grants, particularly reconstruction grants, in the western part of County Cork. The Minister should be aware that such delays are a cause of grave annoyance because many people have obtained the materials for the reconstruction of their house on credit. Indeed in some cases the masons and carpenters are employed on a credit basis. In that part of the country there are a number of people in very poor circumstances who have no alternative except to get credit until such time as the grants are paid. I think it is a scandal that reconstruction grants should be held up in some cases for almost a couple of years. It is a matter which should have the immediate attention of the Minister, as it indicates a state of affairs which should not be allowed to exist in any Department.

Another section of the Act that I should like to see amended is the section which deals with the giving of second grants, after a lapse of 15 years. Of course, one of the essential qualifications for such a grant was that the work should consist of repairing a defective roof or providing additional accommodation. Any other improvement was not covered. The trouble is that there are a number of people who would like to avail of these reconstruction grants and who previously got reconstruction grants away back in 1933 and 1934. Their houses definitely are in need of reconstruction, but the work would not qualify them for a second reconstruction grant inasmuch as the accommodation is quite sufficient and the roofs are quite good. Mainly what they require are new windows, new doors or new floors. These are very expensive items at the present moment, but no State help can be given to that particular type of work where a previous grant was given. I think the people who desire to carry out these improvements should be entitled to a grant on the same conditions as applied in the case of a first grant. Such an arrangement would give better results all round.

Mention was made of the floor space in houses. Deputy Keyes and Deputy Cowan were concerned with floor space in excess of 1,400 square feet but my concern is in the opposite direction. I know that in my own constituency there are a number of houses whose floor space is not 500 square feet and the occupiers of these houses are not entitled to any grant whatsoever under existing legislation. I believe that we should cater for people living in small houses as well as those living in big houses. The occupants of those houses are descendants of people who were not in very affluent circumstances when the houses were erected and consequently they had to build small houses. I have in mind three or four cases of people occupying such houses. The families are small and the houses are quite adequate for their needs, but just because the floor space is not 500 square feet, the people are debarred from getting any benefit whatsoever. I think that is unfair and that some discretion should be left to the housing inspectors in this matter. If the family is small, or if there is only one occupant in the house, the house would be quite sufficient to meet the family needs and, in these circumstances, a grant should be payable even though the floor area is less than 500 square feet.

So far as local authority housing is concerned, I believe that there is an easing off of the drive which existed during the past three or four years. The local authority in my area has been endeavouring to get a rural scheme of 70 or 80 cottages through for almost three years, and we are about as far ahead to-day as we were two and a half years ago. That position of affairs should not be allowed to exist. I am not putting the blame on the Department or the Minister; part of it could probably be put on the local authority concerned. But when a county medical officer and his assistants report that people urgently require cottages in any particular district every effort should be made by the Department to expedite the building of these cottages. It is outrageous that this rural cottage scheme in my constituency should have been held up for the past two or three years. As I said, I am not blaming the Department, but the senior officials of the Department should take notice of such a position and some direction should be sent to the local authority or, if you like, they should be compelled to do the duty which they owe to the people.

Another matter which has been discussed at length by the Cork Country Council is the loans made available under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. Owing to the present cost of house construction it is an impossibility, even with the grant available, for people to build houses on their own without a loan from some quarter. Unfortunately, the people for whom this Act was intended cannot benefit much by it. People with a small business or small farmers cannot get the two sureties necessary in order to benefit under the Act. I know all the people in my neighbourhood very well and they are very honest people, but if one of them intended to build a new house and required a loan of £800 or even £600 under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act from the Cork County Council and went to his neighbours, no matter how friendly they are, and asked them to go security for him for 35 years to the Cork County Council, it would be with great difficulty that he would get any of them to comply with his wishes. People are not anxious to go security for others as they have enough to do to meet their own family commitments. If anything went wrong with the person for whom they went security they would be put in a very awkward position. It is, however, very difficult for anyone to advance money without getting some solvent security, but I think that the particular provision which governs the granting of these loans and which requires two sureties should be overhauled.

A number of local authorities do not insist on a person having two guarantors. They are satisfied with having a mortgage on the house. If that is satisfactory for a few local authorities, it should be made applicable to all local authorities by the Local Government Department. The Cork County Council, and I feel sure every county council, has the names of the applicants for loans before them. Looking over these names, I know that people have got loans who would have no difficulty in building their own houses if the loans were not available. Of course people of that kind have no difficulty in getting sureties. I believe that the main reason they apply for loans is in some cases to avoid income-tax and in other cases so as not to disturb their capital. I could name up to 20 people who got such loans from the Cork County Council to build houses and who could build five or six houses with their own capital. If these loans were not available to them, they would build their own houses.

It is that type of people who are benefiting by the Act, but it is an impossibility for the small farmer, the workman and the man with a small business who may not be very well off financially to benefit by the Act, because, as I said, it is very difficult, particularly in my part of the country, to get two sureties for such a long period as 35 years. I appeal to the Minister to review the whole position as it would mean a great saving of public funds. These people who are not able to avail of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act have no alternative except to fall back on the local authority to provide them with a house at the expense of the public funds. I have been asked by a number of my constituents to bring up this matter, and I hope that something will be done to ease the position.

I hope, as a result of these housing Acts, that in the very near future every person requiring it will be provided with a decent house. As I said at the outset, I hope that no difficulties will be placed in their way, because no matter what advantages a family may have, if they have not a decent house these advantages are of very little use to them. I urge the Minister to continue the good work done by his predecessors. I feel sure that his heart is in this business and that he will leave no stone unturned to improve the housing situation as much as possible. If he follows the example provided by his predecessors, in the not distant future this very great problem will be solved.

The financing of local authority housing and, indeed, the financing of the building programme so as to stimulate private enterprise, is one of very great concern for the Government. Although I agree with Deputy Murphy that advantage is taken by some people of the efforts of the Government, at the same time we are faced with the problem that the Government must legislate for the greatest good of the greatest number. Therefore, in considering this Bill, we will have to direct our discussion towards the general problem confronting us. I agree entirely with the provision which the Minister is making in the present Bill to overcome certain difficulties which have become rather acute in recent times and have held up to some extent the development of building by private enterprise.

A very serious matter affecting the public body to which I belong is the fact that the Cork Corporation has not access to the Local Loans Fund. The population of Cork City is between 75,000 and 80,000 persons. The rateable value of that city is not such as to encourage the authority to go into the stock markets and compete at market prices with other issues for other purposes where money may be freer, where the advantages given may be very attractive, and so forth. We have found from experience that loans for housing stock issues, and so forth, under the Cork Corporation, have not filled or even half filled in recent years. These issues have to be underwritten by the Government and, in consequence, delay is occasioned in providing the finances for housing. I do not know whether the Minister has considered the matter in detail, but I appeal to him to reconsider the urgency of allowing Cork Corporation to have access to the Local Loans Fund for housing purposes. As everybody knows, the high interest charges are of very intimate concern, not only to the local authorities, but also to the people who ultimately will occupy the houses. High interest charges mean high rents, and these seriously affect the families occupying the houses.

I congratulate the Minister on the provision in respect of the reconstruction of houses. We are all aware of the high building costs which prevail at present. A good deal of stress has been laid on the matter of floor space and so forth. There are a number of small houses throughout the country which, if properly reconstructed, would accommodate small families in reasonable comfort. I welcome the provision for the installation of water and sewerage. It will be very helpful to local authorities and even to the owners themselves in getting these houses into good shape and in solving part, at least, of our housing problem. In that connection, I think there should be no restrictions on valuation, floor space, and so on, where the local authority, on the advice of their officers, consider that these steps are desirable.

I think it was Deputy Cowan who referred to the appearance of the towns and villages of this country and to the great advance that has been made in housing in our rural areas as well as in our urban areas. Unfortunately, in many of our villages, we see many derelict sites and broken-down walls, which give all the appearance of decay. These are sites which could be made very attractive if they were built up. The local authority to which Deputy Murphy belongs have taken very wise steps in that connection. According as families are cleared from sites in a town, the sites are rebuilt for the housing of people. These sites are near to the people's work, to churches and schools, lighting, roads and sewerage schemes. Many charges which fall on the Government would be avoided if the problem were thus dealt with in our cities. In Cork City we are faced with the provision of new schools in newly-built areas, whilst, at the same time, there are excellent schools within the borough boundary— schools which have three or four rooms vacant, because the children are moved a considerable distance from them. According as the building programme continues, all these problems will become more acute if we do not insist on the rebuilding of our derelict sites.

Complaints are made that some of the parishes in Cork City, for example, are being denuded of population because the people are going into other areas. Market gardens, and so forth, are being taken over and developed for housing purposes whilst the local authority—particularly, perhaps, the manager—has not given sufficient encouragement in respect of the building of derelict sites. No matter how the members of the corporation may press for such development, we get very poor encouragement. That should not be so.

In connection with the provision of houses and loans and letting grants, a difficulty has arisen in the borough boundary and in the surrounding suburbs by reason of certain interpretations as to who is entitled to these loans and grants. Take, for instance, a bus driver who has left a rural area in recent years and has gone to live in the city to be near his work. An effort is being made by some people to restrict such persons from the provisions of Acts which, to my mind, were designed for the benefit of the whole community. If that bus driver wants to build a house in the county area I think it is going very tight indeed in interpretation to say that he belongs to the borough area and should not get facilities from the county when, in actual fact, he is improving the valuation of the county by building a house in the county area.

There are several restrictions of that kind which I hope will definitely be cleared up. I hope, too, that there will be no narrow-minded approach to what is intended when legislation is passed by this House and that advantage will not be taken of every little restriction which can be read into those provisions. The supplementary grants by the local authorities have been delayed by reason of certain contentions over the qualifications of applicants. That should not be so. We have boundaries enough in this country already without being too restricted in our approach to these matters. If a man is building a house in the rural area for his family he should come within the jurisdiction of the county authority because it is there he is providing the asset. He should be entitled to whatever benefits are enjoyed by those who reside in the county areas.

The question of the letting grants has also been a very big problem because these were designed for houses built for letting. The interpretation placed generally on these grants is that they were designed for people mainly for whom the local authority will be responsible for housing and that they did not apply to people who were charging £2 17s. 6d., £3 and £3 10s. a week for a house and that people who could afford to pay these high rents or people who built houses designed for high rent charges of that kind did not come within the ordinary social legislation of the country which provided for the community in general. Consequently, there have been views—and to my mind these views have some substance in them—that the concern of the local authorities is mainly with the people for whom housing is a great responsibility.

I think there is very little else that I need say at this juncture except to welcome the Bill as a further step forward. In his approach to it, the Minister has tried to get rid of some of the restrictive clauses, perhaps, unseen in previous legislation. I myself can say—I am sure others can say it also—that the very fact that this Bill has been announced is stimulating building again. For some time there has been a hold-up and I am sorry to say that in the meantime some small builders are disappearing—men who had a certain amount of skill and, perhaps, a small amount of experience who, instead of working for others, decided that they would build for themselves and for others who were prepared to give them responsibility for erecting houses for them.

Many of these are disappearing and if they do the big builders can again charge what they like for the erection of houses. These small builders had their effect on the tendering for housing schemes, particularly in the suburbs and rural areas. They took small numbers of houses and erected them satisfactorily. In our housing programme I think the competitive nature of tendering is a very important factor.

Some authorities, like the Cork Corporation, set up building by direct labour as a counterblast to the high costs that were occurring year after year and as a check on the high charges. In order to house our people in a reasonable time we will need every effort that can be put into it. Encouragement in this Bill will be a step in that direction.

Deputy MacCarthy and my colleague, Deputy Michael Patrick Murphy, have covered practically all the points I wish to mention. First of all, I think it is right for me to draw attention to the approach to this measure by Deputy Gallagher. Deputy Gallagher mentioned Cork City, but I am very sorry that some other Deputies from Cork— I need not mention any names—were not here to listen to him when he gave such an honest, constructive contribution towards a problem which in itself is altogether vicious in Cork City. He pointed out one danger which may not have been provided against in this Bill—that a person living in Cork City would not be able to avail of the advantages of a grant under this Act if he decided to build in the county because the corporation, not having acquired land in the county, could not allow him any benefits. Unfortunately, the majority of the members in the Cork County Council decided that that person should not get the benefits from the Cork County Council. Deputy MacCarthy supported me in my stand at the time and will bear me out in this.

I am in thorough agreement with the approach made by Deputy Gallagher in that matter. I would suggest to the Minister that it is a point to be considered at a later stage in this Bill, the position of a tenant who may be squeezed out from one local authority and another local authority refusing to give him the advantages which he should get from them. It means he will not get the advantage of this important Bill or any other important Bill if local authorities are able to act in that manner.

Deputy MacCarthy touched upon another matter which is of grave importance to us. In the light of our own small experience on local authorities we realise the importance of the problems that may come before us. Deputy Keyes drew attention to the section which gives the right of appeal to an aggrieved person in connection with these grants. I agree with Deputy MacCarthy, but I would go even further than he did. I cannot agree with the Minister or with my colleague, Deputy Keyes. There are certain professional people who, because of their positions or their professions, cannot acquire or build a house in certain places. They may at any time be transferred, in consequence of the terms of their appointment, to some other place in a county. That means they would then have to rent a house. They cannot qualify for a local authority house. When in search of a home, temporary as it may be, for a few years, they are very often the victims of unscrupulous landlords, new landlords, in this country, who demand from these people up to £3 10s. a week rent.

These landlords came before us and asked for a grant of £40 a year for ten years, making a total of £400. The majority of us decided to give them 1/- a year. Unfortunately, we could see by the provision of the Act at that time—it is possible that the provision still stands in this Bill—that if they got the £40 a year for the ten years, making a total of £400, the tenants would then have to pay the full rates. They would not get the remission for seven years.

Now we believe that in a large number of cases these landlords are not passing on the advantage of this grant to their tenants. We are aware of many instances where the tenant must pay the rates. Tenants are paying roughly anything from £2 17s. 6d. to £3 10s. per week in rent and are also expected to pay the rates. Why should a landlord get from the Government anything up to £400, plus a rent of anything up to £3 10s. per week, while he saddles his unfortunate tenant with that high rent and the additional burden of paying the rates? I think the Minister should consider that point. Every Deputy is anxious to give his fullest co-operation in a matter of this kind. Perhaps the Minister will see fit to make provision whereby landlords who get these advantages will be compelled to pass on the benefit of certain of these advantages to their tenants.

In Section 10 a question arises in relation to the maximum wage rate of £416. Provision is made whereby an applicant will get only 33? per cent. of the grant from the local authority. There is also the question of tenants who are not classified in the lower wage group. It is our experience that it is only the person who has a fairly good wage who can consider the possibility of building a house for himself and his family. A farm worker, a road worker or a casual labourer of any kind cannot afford to saddle himself with such a huge burden as building a home of his own. There are other classes in and around Cork city, such as tradesmen and factory workers, who really come under county council administration. Members of their families are working and these people are anxious to build their own homes, provided they get certain facilities.

When considering these particular sections and making full allowance for the wages earned by the father, plus those earned by a few sons and daughters, it must be appreciated that £416 is below what I shall describe as the ground level of such a wage. When passing a Bill somewhat similar to this a few years ago, we included a ceiling of £600 a year. The Minister's officials know all about that. It is these people who will be able to take advantage of this Bill and, if we do not make allowance for them, we will find ourselves back at the stage of offering advantages with the one hand and taking them away with the other, while saddling the local authorities with additional burdens. Such a family, for instance, if living in a condemned house and qualified under the regulations, will have to get full consideration from the local medical officer in the same way as a person with a wage lower than £416 who may be living in just as bad a house.

I merely raise these points for the purpose of offering some constructive criticism. It is a pleasure to discover that we can discuss something here removed from Party politics altogether. We want to get the best return we can. No matter how many Acts we pass, there will always be need for some amendment. Under Section 8 there is the question of the prohibition of the grant—"if such premises have been disposed of by the local authority". I have in mind the case of a tenant who is purchasing his cottage. In a case of that kind a certain term of years must elapse before the tenant becomes the rightful owner. There are clauses and provisions in several Acts covering the cases of tenants who do not fulfil the obligations placed upon them by the local authority. There is provision whereby, if tenants fail to keep their premises in a proper state of repair, the local authority can go in, repair the cottage and sue the tenant for the cost of the repairs. Where will we stand in future in relation to such a tenant? Will it be held that such a house has been disposed of by the local authority? If that is so, then the tenant is not entitled to the grant. If the tenant purchases the house and if the local authority puts the house into a proper state of repair before the full purchase term expires, where do we stand? The tenant may not be full owner. Will he be eligible for a grant for reconstruction purposes? That is a very important point in relation to those people who are purchasing their homes from the local authorities.

Section 7 deals with the £50 grants for the provision of water and sewerage. That is an excellent provision. If a man applies for a reconstruction grant will he be entitled to the grant of £50 also outside of the reconstruction grant, or will the £50 be included? I do not say the tenant should get it. There may be difficulties. Finance will always decide how far we can go.

There is provision whereby local authorities will be enabled to purchase land for the benefit of utility societies or private groups anxious to construct their own homes. These people often find it very difficult to acquire sites and local authorities are in a much better position to acquire land than are small groups of people. That will be an incentive to tradesmen, such as carpenters, masons, plasterers, painters and so on, to build homes for themselves.

We will have time to discuss all these points on another occasion. I have drawn the Minister's attention to the matters in which I am particularly interested. Finally, I would repeat again that if the so-called aggrieved persons are getting certain advantages they should be willing to hand some of these on to their tenants.

Debate adjourned.
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