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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 1952

Vol. 132 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1952—Committee (Resumed).

We have listened to a considerable amount of criticism from Deputies in regard to the remission of this tax, and I was hoping that the week-end would have enabled Deputies to see the position with some sense of reality. I was rather surprised this afternoon to find that the old allegations were being trotted out again. This remission of the tax on dancing is a very small item in a large Budget. It is an extraordinary thing that so much time is being devoted by Deputies to a criticism of the remission of this tax. It is significant that it is only in regard to the dance tax remission that some Deputies have intervened at all in the discussion of this Finance Bill. What was the purpose of that? At an earlier stage we discussed the remission of taxation under the income-tax relief section. While we had some criticism from Fine. Gael Deputies of the remission of income-tax, we had no contribution on that matter from the members of the Labour Party, who have intervened at length in regard to the remission of the tax on dancing.

Deputy Collins described this as a most obnoxious and disreputable part of the Finance Bill. He said: "We are entitled to put on view before the Irish public the completely shady and disreputable background to the removal of this tax. It is a sordid political bargain bringing public life into a `new low' of degradation." Deputy Norton said that we are taxing the old age pensioner in the Budget and that at the same time we are remitting this tax. Deputy Dillon's words of abuse are still ringing around the rafters of this House, abuse of every person concerned in public life in the country. I do not want to follow Deputy Dillon, nor do I want to repeat the language he used in regard to corruption, degradation and matters of that kind.

It is unfair that an approach like this should be made to a simple matter such as the remission of the dance tax. The surprising thing is that, from the moment the Budget was introduced, so many Deputies have referred to the £140,000 that is going to the dance-hall proprietors. That is high-sounding language. But, right through the country, people are not fooled with that type of language. In the towns people begin to ask: "Who are the dance-hall proprietors? Who is benefiting to the extent of £1,000 or £500 within the area that I know?" In no part of the rural areas, no part outside the cities and perhaps one or two of the big towns, will you find the private dance halls.

The tax does not apply to rural Ireland.

Rural Ireland is Ireland outside the cities.

Mr. O'Higgins

Would the Deputy have said that some years ago?

There was no tax outside the cities.

Deal with the cities.

I am wondering whether Deputy Rooney is deliberately stupid or not. He interjects from time to time some stupid observation like "deal with the cities". I am dealing with the remission of the dance tax.

Mr. O'Higgins

Which only applies to the cities.

As the Parlia mentary Secretary put it to-day, the dance tax applies in an area with a population of over 500.

(Interruptions.)

Perhaps Deputy Cowan might be allowed to proceed.

It applies to an area with a population of more than 500. We have many towns in this country with a population of 501. People in these towns are beginning to ask: "Who is the dance-hall proprietor who will make £500 out of this remission?" They look around and they can find none. This dance-hall proprietor who is being held up here is a purely mythical person who does not exist.

Mr. O'Higgins

And, therefore, exemption is not required.

The remission of the dance tax brings benefit to the individuals who attend dances in these particular halls.

The dances are still 5/-.

On a point of order Deputy Rooney keeps up a running commentary when any other speaker except a member of the Opposition is addressing the House. I suggest that the Deputy should put a bridle on his tongue—for that is what he wants—or a cork in his mouth.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister has referred to a cork in someone's mouths. I was speaking here for some half an hour and I was subjected to considerable interruption — to which I may say I did not object — from the Deputy who is now speaking and another Deputy. The Minister has been very quick to rise to a point of order. He did not come to my assistance when I was speaking some time ago.

Deputies are entitled to speak without interruption.

Mr. O'Higgins

Of course they are and the Minister should be impartial.

Only a few moments ago when the Minister for Defence was winding up his Estimate I wanted to ask a very simple question and Deputy Rooney interjected on a matter that had nothing at all to do with the Estimate.

But I did not ask your question.

The Deputy is so stupid he does not know what is going on in the House.

That is just vulgar abuse.

I do not want to abuse anyone but when I am continually subjected to interruption by Deputy Rooney I cannot help it.

The Deputy will now come to Section 14.

It is not the proprietors of dance halls who will benefit through the remission of this tax. It is the people who attend the dances in the first instance and, secondly, the clubs or organisations that run the dances.

Mr. O'Higgins

They are exempt from tax.

They are not. I have been connected with many organisations which ran dances and we always had to have tickets and pay tax.

Mr. O'Higgins

Those were the Vanguard clubs.

By the time we had paid the tax we found we had nothing left for our efforts.

If the dances were run for charity you could have got a remission.

Deputy O'Donnell knows that many organisations run dances that are not for charity.

They run them to make money.

To make money for themselves, certainly.

Why then should they not pay tax?

Why should they? This country is administered in the ordinary way by the Government and by local authorities. Outside of that there are organisations of people who come together voluntarily—cultural, sporting or athletic—and do a tremendous amount of useful work. These organisations run dances. Dances are always regarded as a sources of revenue, but for some time past dances have no longer proved to be a source of revenue to these organisations. I do not know how many commercial dance halls there are throughout the country. We have several in the City of Dublin. Some are run by groups of individuals. Two of the finest ballrooms are let to clubs and organisations which want to run dances. There is a fixed charge for the hall irrespective of whether or not there is a tax on dancing. These proprietors will not benefit financially by the removal of this tax. The £140,000, if that is the amount, will go to the little clubs I have mentioned and as a saving on the part of the individual who attends dances. That is quite clear to me. It is quite clear to the people. Deputy Dillon and Deputy S. Collins are falling into serious error if they think otherwise. They seem to think that the people are stupid and will take as stupid a view as they take.

Mr. O'Higgins

Does the Deputy think that after 1st August next the admission price to dances will be reduced by the amount of the tax?

That is a matter entirely for the organisations that run the dances.

Mr. O'Higgins

Surely the Deputy realises that is part and parcel of his argument?

It is not. Supposing the Irish Auctioneers' Association hires a dance hall up in Parnell Square, the one owned by a trade union. They pay a fixed charge for the use of the hall. The admission charge to the dance is entirely a matter for the organisation. If the admission charge is not reduced there is a bigger profit.

Mr. O'Higgins

But Deputy Cogan advanced the argument — I thought you were supporting it — that the young people would get the benefit of this remission.

They may. They will get the benefit of the tax if the people organising the dances reduce the price of admission.

Mr. O'Higgins

I wonder how long is it since the Deputy was at a dance?

Not so very long.

The Deputy is entitled to speak without interruption.

The dance-hall proprietors will get nothing out of this. The people who will benefit will be the ordinary people who go to dances or who organise dances. I think it is wrong that the House should be used for the purpose of casting offensive aspersions on the Government or the Minister for Finance. This tax was remitted in 1946. It was reimposed in 1949. It was opposed in 1949 and in 1950. In 1951, the present Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass, stated very clearly when he wrote to the Secretary of the Ballroom Proprietors' Association that if Fianna Fáil were returned as the Government they would remit the tax. That was a specified statement of policy on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. O'Higgins

And duly honoured.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare has said that in County Westmeath there are 23 halls, each serving populations of over 500, in which the dance tax was, and is, being charged. In the whole county there is only one commercial dance hall, owned by a private individual and run for profit. The others are parochial halls where the dances are run by local co-operative organisations. Deputy Tully is here this evening. How many commercial dance halls are there in County Cavan? How many are there is Laois-Offaly?

Mr. O'Higgins

I am glad you asked the question. There is one in every town.

Owned by private individuals?

Mr. O'Higgins

Yes. There is Portlaoighise and Rathdowney to mention two of them. There is another in Carlow, a very fine commercial dance hall. Deputy Cogan knows it well.

You will have difficulty in finding a commercial dance hall in County Meath.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy should go down the country for a bit.

The Deputy knows the country very well. I could bring Deputy O'Higgins on a tour of the country.

The sooner the better.

Mr. O'Higgins

Will the Deputy vote with us on this section and we will go to the country together?

This is where a Party like Fine Gael makes a grave mistake. They think they can forget common sense when discussing a matter like this and that by the use of vulgar abuse they will get votes for their Party. My view is that that is entirely wrong. You do not get votes in that way because you are trying to fool the people and you cannot fool the people. The people will examine the problem. They will look around themselves and say: "Who is benefiting by this?" There is nobody benefiting by it but the boys and girls who, as Deputy Cogan has said, go in their thousands to the dances. They are the people who will benefit from the remission of this tax.

And Fianna Fáil got the subscriptions.

I am not going to follow that hare about subscriptions. If Fine Gael were to announce a particular policy, if they were to announce to-morrow that if they got back into office they would remove the taxes on beer and spirits: supposing they were to announce that and supposing the publicans got together and said: "We will contribute £10,000 or £20,000 or £30,000 to Fine Gael for their election fund", and supposing they did contribute that, is there anything wrong in that? Of course there is not.

Mr. O'Higgins

Would you put the reverse case. Suppose they came along with £20,000 and said: "If we give you this, will you remove the tax?"

There is no allegation of anything like that.

Read Miss Morris's letter.

I have it here. There is this new alliance between Deputy Dunne and Deputy Rooney. They are talking about buying or selling. I would like to know who is sold and who is bought.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is what we would like to know.

I have put that proposition to Fine Gael and I have asked them to answer it. It is exactly what is here in this letter. Here is what Deputy Lemass wrote to Miss Morris:

"I have received your letter of May 6th which has been considered by the Fianna Fáil Party Committee. The Committee's view is that the entertainments duty on dances is an undersirable tax——"

just as Deputy MacBride wrote to "Dear Paddy" that the tax on dogs is an undesirable tax. Deputy Lemass's letter goes on:

"as to its abolition in the present financial year, however—that was last year — a decision must necessarily await the detailed examination of the Budget introduced in the Dáil immediately prior to its dissolution, but it would be the intention of the Fianna Fáil Party to repeal it as soon as practicable."

Is there anything wrong in that?

An excellent letter.

Supposing tomorrow there was a letter sent to the Secretary of Fine Gael by the secretary of the licensed trade, and supposing the Secretary of Fine Gael wrote back to the secretary of the licensed trade: "It would be the intention of the Fine Gael Party to repeal these taxes as soon as practicable", would there be anything wrong in that?

Is it desirable in present circumstances to remit £100,000?

I will deal with that. I am dealing with the first point. If a political Party says: "We will repeal this tax as soon as practicable," is there anything wrong with that? That is the point that is being made here all the time. The leaders of this country and the Government of this country are being held up to odium and ridicule by the violent language that we have had from Deputy Collins and Deputy Dillon. On examination there is no justification for that.

By their accepting the money, you left yourself open, too.

Supposing tomorrow the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union, to which Deputy O'Leary belongs, was to contribute or was to offer to contribute to Deputy O'Leary or to the Labour Party a sum of money for their support for extra wages or extra pensions or anything of that kind, would Deputy O'Leary think there was anything wrong with that?

It is a different thing altogether.

There is no difference except that we cannot say it about ourselves, but we want to say it about others.

Did you know, when you joined the Party and put them in power, that they had accepted money from the dance-hall proprietors? Did you get any of it?

Unfortunately, I do not get money from anybody. That does not alter the fact that I do know that Deputy O'Leary ran his election campaign on money that was subscribed by somebody else. I know that the Parties over there ran their election campaigns on money that was subscribed by parties and organisations.

That is not so.

I know that Fianna Fáil ran their election campaign on money that was subscribed by organisations. As soon as the election is declared you see the huge advertisements from all Parties: "Send your subscriptions along" to so-and-so.

The Deputy is getting away from the entertainment tax.

The point that I want to make to Deputies is that it is wrong to be making these allegations against members of the House for doing what is done at every election and every year.

Taking bribes? There is a difference between a bribe and a subscription.

Where is the bribe? Can I get into Deputy Rooney's mind? Can I get through the concrete wall that surrounds his brain? Where is the bribe? Who is giving the bribe?

Read the correspondence.

That is the answer —"Read the correspondence". Who gave the bribe and what was the bribe? I defy Deputy Rooney to answer that question.

There was one subscription of £250.

Two hundred and fifty grandmothers. That would not run a campaign for a county council election, and Deputy Rooney knows that. What I object to is the running down of the country. The language of Deputy Dillon here the other day was language that was abusive of the country. The language of Deputy Collins was language that was abusive of the country —in other words that we are doing something like this in this House for some petty bribe of £250.

Mr. O'Higgins

In other words, that we should do it but not say anything about it?

No. If the allegation was that it was done for some decent amount, but £250 is absurd and ridiculous. Anyway, this thing is being thrashed to death.

Hear, hear!

There is no doubt about it. It was started in an effort to try and fool the people, and it has failed.

It has been kept up until the people are nauseated. The people in Westmeath do not see these private dance-hall proprietors going round with their fur coats, smoking big cigars and driving around in their big cars. Neither do they see them in North or South Tipperary.

Indeed they do.

Nor in East Galway.

I do not come from East Galway.

East or North or South.

Go to Salthill.

Those mythical people, the dance-hall proprietors, are referred to in this abusive way. Some Fine Gael Deputies have spoken on this section and have examined it in a reasonable way. That does not suit the mud-slingers — Deputy Dillon, Deputy Corish and I am sorry to say, a Deputy such as Deputy O'Leary, who has allowed himself to be associated with that sort of thing.

I am sorry for you and I am sorry for the people in Dublin.

I think that Deputy Corish might find in the Finance Bill matters that would be worthy of his consideration as Leader of the Labour Party, but he will not find them in this section dealing with the remission of the tax on dancing.

I listened carefully to the Minister. His principal reason for the remission of this tax was the difficulty and expense involved in collecting it. A most ingenious reason was invented by Deputy Cowan. However, I think the Minister was really serious when he said that his principal reason for remitting the tax was the expense and difficulty involved in collecting it. He went further and told us that he had been advised that there was considerable evasion.

I said nothing of the sort. Just read what Deputy Dillon said.

I am not quoting Deputy Dillon. I am quoting the Minister.

The Deputy had better quote what Deputy O'Higgins said to-day.

Deputy Allen said it a few minutes ago.

I have perfectly good powers of hearing. I heard the Minister make the statement in this House that the difficulty and expense involved in collecting the tax was one justification for its abolition.

The Deputy is mending his hand. He said that it was the only justification.

In reply, Deputy McGilligan was able to prove that during the three years he was Minister for Finance not only did the tax go up the second year but also the third year, and he had no complaints from the revenue authorities about the difficulty or expense involved in collecting it. If we could rope in, in this financial year, an extra £140,000 or £200,000 which, remember, was gradually going up, could it not be devoted to relieve some of the unfortunate people in this country or could it not be devoted to increasing military service pensions, and so forth? If these things could be done with it, why should we evade the collection of that tax?

I make a suggestion to the Minister, and I am making it quite seriously. Each dance-hall proprietor, in applying each year for his licence, pays £2 stamp duty, which is a contribution towards the Exchequer. Some of these dance halls are better equipped than others. Some of them are bigger buildings and have a bigger turnover than others. Would it not be possible to have a revaluation of the dance halls? Having got the revaluation, would it not be possible to have a pro rata licence imposed on these dance halls at the annual licensing session? We would be employing an instrument often employed by the Revenue Commissioners for the free collection of duties. We would be employing the legal profession to collect these taxes, and it would cost the State nothing. The Minister may laugh——

I should like to see the legal practitioner who does anything for nothing.

We take in £2 per dance-hall licence for the State. We receive nothing whatsoever from the State for the collection of that £2 — not a penny. That duty is imposed upon us to collect that money free so far as the State is concerned. There is no reason why the Minister could not increase that stamp duty in proportion to the poor law valuation of these luxurious dance halls all over the country. Remember, and the Minister has evidence of it in this county, to evade the imposition of the dance-hall tax, dance halls were built within a radius of 20 miles of Dublin City. Most luxurious dance halls were built for the purpose of qualifying under the rural Ireland exemption of payment of entertainment taxes.

I have not seen one.

Then go out on the Slane road and see one, and go out on a night when there is a dance being held there. The Deputy will see a very large number of cars from Dublin City lined up all along the road.

Does the Deputy think that desirable?

No. Further, the proprietor who can afford to put money into that hall can also afford to pay a tax. I think it would be much more desirable to extract that tax from him, and other dance-hall proprietors like him, than that other sections of the community who can less well afford it should be further taxed.

Deputy Cowan said that the majority of dances were held by sports clubs and for charitable organisations. I am a solicitor. I act for approximately 25 different dance-hall proprietors. On each occasion when we apply for a renewal of the dance-hall licence we have difficulty in extracting from the proprietors the small allocation of approximately 20 per cent. of their dances for charitable and other organisations. That is quite true — and remember that the tax does not apply in most of the cases because they are in rural Ireland. It just shows the monopoly which they have. Every political Party, even Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and other political organisations, requires funds occasionally. One of the methods adopted by them for the purpose of raising funds is to hold a dance. They have difficulty in holding one dance per year in some of these dance halls. I appeal to the Minister and to this House to consider this matter carefully. In these days when, as the Minister says, a cruel and heavy Budget has had to be introduced, we should at least ask dance-hall proprietors to carry their share of the burden of taxation.

I think that the whole subject has been taken out of focus since the Minister announced his intention to remit this particular tax. I could not agree more with what Deputy Cowan said. Sporting clubs, particularly in the very small towns in rural Ireland, play a very prominent part in the life of the people and they are desperately short of money.

There is no tax in these small towns in rural Ireland.

Quite wrong.

If they are over 500 people——

Then they are not small towns.

Or if they are within three miles of a centre of population of more than 500 persons.

You can take mental hospitals and other institutions out of that.

Deputy S. Flanagan.

Where the population of the town is over 500 or if the dance hall is within a radius of three miles of such a town, the tax applies. Small football clubs, and so forth, play a very prominent part in the social life of the young men of the district. In fact they very often have nothing else to keep them going.

I thought céilidhes were free?

They are not. Deputy O'Higgins put you on that false scent.

I thought Deputies understood what the tax position was. Some of them do not seem to understand what they are talking about. I thought the tax applied to céilidhes. I thought it applied in towns of over 500 population and within three miles radius.

I follow. Go ahead.

I know from practical experience that in the case of these small clubs—and I am not referring to any particular sport—tennis, golf, Gaelic Athletic Association, hurling and various other small sporting organisations—in country towns and in surrounding parishes and townlands, in practice, the only way they can make money to keep going is to make it on dances and céilidhes. When the tax was in operation they went to all the rounds of the world to try to get out of it.

Exactly, but still we got £150,000.

The local pensions officer, who was also human enough to know that these clubs could exist only if they made some money, had to do his duty and had to get after them if there was any attempt on their part to evade the tax. He also had to be paid by the State at the rate of 9d. per mile if he went out to check on the activities of these people. The result is that, in the long run, the game very often is not worth the candle. In addition to paying the proprietor and the band, if you also had to pay a dance tax on every ticket that was bought at the door, you would not get anything for the club and it would not be worth while running the function. I defy contradiction that very many small sports clubs throughout rural Ireland have gone out of being for the sole and simple reason that they could not make money in the only way that was open to them, that is, by running céilidhes and dances.

There is something, I admit, in what Deputy O'Donnell says about finding it difficult to get halls for dances from time to time. When there is so much heat generated in debates like this, it is well that we should be reasonable from time to time. There is something in that statement that it is often hard to convince a proprietor, a commercial proprietor especially, to give his support to a club which cannot afford to pay what he would usually like to ask for the use of his hall for a night. Very often, just because the club is local or his son is playing, or for some such reason, he gives the hall for something less than what he would like to get for the evening. If the hall is being run for a commercial purpose, he cannot afford to do that too often.

I was very interested also in Deputy O'Donnell's suggestion about increasing the stamp duty. I do not know if it is a practical suggestion.

I very strongly agree with what Deputy Cowan said in regard to the speeches made by Deputy Collins and Deputy Dillon. I want to assure the House, and I would assure Deputy Dillon if he were here, that I am not trying to get notoriety by climbing up on his back. He suggested the other day that anyone who picked on him did so for the purpose of trying to get vicarious notoriety. I do suggest quite seriously to the House, when we are talking about bribery, corruption, degradation and one thing or another, it is hardly proper for Deputies like Deputy Dillon and Deputy Collins to stand up here and make speeches such as they did make in the course of the last few days, giving the impression to the whole world that in fact the present Government in conducting the affairs of the country is being guided by bribery, and that it is corrupt, for the sake of what the Opposition variously estimated from £250 to £2,500. There was no bribery, and there was no corruption involved in it, and Deputy Cowan made an absolutely unanswerable case in that respect.

You could not stop the dance-hall proprietors from giving a subscription after Fianna Fáil, through the Tánaiste, had given an unequivocal statement about the attitude of the Party on the subject of dance tax. If any organisation in the country asks Fianna Fáil, Labour or Fine Gael for a clear statement of policy on any matter, surely the particular Party will be prepared to give it. If, thereafter, the people who would stand to benefit by the implementation of the policy decide that they will support that Party and actually contribute to its funds, according to the definition of bribery, it just is not it or, according to the definition of corruption, it just is not it. It is one thing to obtain political advantage in any possible way, but it is hardly right to hold up this Parliament to ridicule in the eyes of the world.

I am afraid I have wandered from the original point that I wanted to make, that was, with regard to these little sports clubs. I am grateful to Deputy O'Donnell for being kind enough to wait. I intend to vote, of course, for the removal of this tax, if only for the reason that it gives a breathing space and a new hope to these small clubs. In fairness, I do not think that any Deputy sitting on the benches opposite will say that these clubs are rolling in riches. I think they will all admit that they are barely able to struggle on. I think, also, that they will tell Parliament that they play a useful and, indeed, an essential part in the rural life of the country, developing, as they do, the bodies and minds of the young men who will afterwards be asked to carry on the responsibility of citizenship.

I am sure the present Minister and his predecessors, from time to time, have been approached by most organisations representing the various interests in the community who are the subject of the tax code in this State. The Minister and his predecessors, when dealing with applications for remission of taxes and when meeting the various demands for remission of taxes from various bodies, should take into consideration, not merely the interests of a particular organisation that is approaching them at the time, but the interests of the community as a whole. The Minister's duty is not to give remission of taxes to any particular branch of the community, if that remission will work hardship on other sections of the community.

The Minister has a very powerful weapon to wield annually when he brings in his Budget. He has it in his power to grant considerable relief to sections of the community by remission of tax. He has it also in his power to impose sometimes very onerous taxes on other sections of the community. It is the Minister's task to shoulder that responsibility by distributing the tax as equitably as he can.

What I object to in the remission of tax enshrined in Section 14 is that the Minister has not distributed taxation in an equitable fashion. The Minister is giving a remission of tax to people who deserve remission far less than other people whom the Minister could have benefited if he had maintained this tax at its present level.

The Minister, Fianna Fáil Deputies and other Deputies must be aware as I am, that there are in this State groups of people who are suffering great hardships as a result of the rise in the cost of living, who will suffer greater hardships after July 1st, when the food subsidies come off. I need only mention State pensioners, pensioners of local authorities, Old I.R.A. pensioners, recipients of non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions. I need only refer to people who are in receipt of tuberculosis allowances from local authorities, people whose lives are extremely hard and are going to become harder as a result of the rise in the cost of living and as a result of the decision of the Government to reduce the subsidies. These people in many cases have an unanswerable case for a reduction.

The Deputy is getting away from the section.

I am coming back to the point I wish to make and which I regard as the kernel of Section 14. That is, that the Minister appears to have had £140,000 at his disposal after he had imposed all the taxes and cut down the food subsidies. Instead of giving that £140,000 to any of those sections of the community who stood so badly in need of it, he decided to give it back to the dance-hall proprietors. Let us assume for a moment that Deputy Flanagan is correct. Let us assume—and it is a big assumption— that Deputy Cowan is correct, that in fact the people who are going to benefit from the remission of the tax are not the wealthy proprietors of dance halls but the ordinary promoters of social functions, social clubs and athletic clubs to whom reference has been made in this debate. Is their case stronger than the case of the State pensioner, the Old I.R.A. pensioner or the widow who depends on a non-contributory pension from the State? Surely the answer is quite clear. Surely no sane Minister for Finance who had £140,000 on hands after balancing his books would give that away to dance-hall proprietors or to the promoters of social functions in preference to giving it to the classes I have named. Maybe the owners of dance halls have a case, but when Deputy McGilligan asked them to show their profits and told them that if it were demonstrable that they were suffering losses he would consider removing the tax they refused to show their books and so Deputy McGilligan refused to remove the tax. But let us suppose that there was in fact a case for the promoters of social functions throughout the State, have they a greater title to relief under the Budget than State pensioners, widows in receipt of a State pension or people in receipt of a tuberculosis allowance? Where is the Government's hierarchy of values? There is a complete inversion of the accepted method of giving relief, if relief were to be given in the Budget.

Deputy Cowan, Deputy Cogan and other Deputies have put forward what I regard as almost pathetic arguments in favour of this remission of taxation. Deputy Cowan wants the young people to be able to dance at a lower cost, but are the young people who want to go to dances entitled to enjoy themselves at the expense of the State pensioners, the Old I.R.A. pensioner or the widow in receipt of a non-contributory pension? That is the position. The Minister cast his benevolent eye on the £140,000 in his hands, but instead of giving it to the people most deserving of help, he has given it to people who were the least entitled to relief under this Budget, this harsh and cruel Budget.

It is unnecessary to go into the full implications of the Budget at this stage, but I would say that none of the arguments put forward to support Section 14 justifies the remission of tax in favour of a small comparatively well-off minority in this country when there are people in a grave state of destitution as a result of the Government's financial policy over the last 12 months. In view of the speciousness and fatuousness of the arguments put forward, we are entitled to draw only one conclusion, and that is that the reason and the motive behind Section 14 is the notoriously sordid one that has been referred to throughout the debate.

It is very clear from the arguments put forward in defence of this relief that those who try to defend the Minister in granting this relief have no case to make. This was the only bright spot in the savage Budget introduced by the Minister two months ago. He offered as an excuse the cost of collection. He told us that the cost of collection did not justify the imposition of this tax, but whatever the cost was, after all costs and expenses were paid, £140,000 came into the Exchequer last year, and the revenue was on the increase. Three years ago it was £100,000; last year it was upwards of £140,000, and it could be expected to continue to rise.

Reference was made to the letter which was circulated from the Ballroom Owners' Association asking their members to subscribe generously before the general election so as to enable Fianna Fáil to gain a victory. I should like to refer now to a letter circulated after the announcement of this relief of £140,000 a letter from the Irish Dance Band Federation to the ballroom proprietors. That letter told the ballroom proprietors that the members of the Dance Band Federation proposed to adjust their charges upwards. Everybody knows that the fees for dance bands within recent years have shown an upward trend. More money was being spent in the dance halls and, of course, the dance bands moved their charges upwards. The very moment this relief was announced by the Minister in his Budget a circular letter was sent out by the Dance Band Federation indicating to the ballroom proprietors that they intended to increase the charges for their bands. At the same time an indication was given by the Ballroom Owners' Association that they proposed to increase the rent charges for their ballrooms. There are two sections of the community very keenly fighting between themselves for this £140,000 which the Minister has released amongst them.

The argument that his will be a relief to the people who attend dances is to say the least of it silly. Deputy Cogan in his remarks which were wide of the mark said that it was going to benefit people attending dances. We know very well that the charges for admission to dances are not going to be reduced. The fee of 5/- as the Minister knows will continue to be 5/.

The fight is on between the dance bands and the Ballroom Owners' Association for the 1/- tax that was normally subscribed from that 5/-. It was argued that it would give some benefit to clubs which promoted these dances. There will be very little left when the battle between the ballroom owners and the dance bands is over. When the Minister announced this remission of tax and at the same time indicated that the loaf of bread for the poorer sections of the community would be increased to 9d. these people have every reason to be annoyed that this remission was given.

When we examine the correspondence which passed between the present Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Ballroom Owners' Association regarding a subscription to the general election fund and the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputies on this side of the House have every reason to believe that it was something more than a friendly subscription. It has been described as bribery, corruption and degradation. Whatever it was, it certainly had something to do with the undertaking which was given by the Fianna Fáil Party to consider the question of remitting this tax if elected to office.

This debate has been conducted with a complete disregard of the value of language and of the significance of facts. It opened, as it concluded, with a general charge of misconduct amounting to bribery and corruption made by two Deputies, Deputy Rooney and Deputy Dillon, whose minds habitually run on these lines. This idea of bribery and corruption is never far from their minds and is always on their tongue. I wonder are they holding themselves out as indicating to people that they are on the hazard, that that is what they are thinking of all the time in public and in political life in this country?

Produce the document.

I have no document to produce about Deputy Rooney, but it does look as if he were saying: "The fellows on the other side are corrupt. The gentlemen on the other side will accept bribes. But look at me, what am I doing?" Are we to assume from that that Deputy Rooney is just waiting to be tempted? Is that why, throughout the whole course of this debate, he has kept up a running commentary about bribery and corruption? A man should not advertise himself in that way. He should be a little discreet, because, after all, one day or another, temptation might catch up with him and then he might fall just as any other persons might fall if they were tempted beyond their strength and they were seeking dangerous occasions.

I was saying that this debate opened with complete disregard for facts. We had that evidenced in Deputy Dillon's speech. Deputy Dillon alleged that the remission of this tax would benefit individuals who were very small in number. Prompted by Deputy O'Higgins, he said that there were only 140 proprietors of dance halls in this country. If Deputy Dillon had been concerned to base his case upon facts, he would have regard to an answer given to a parliamentary question at the end of April last, and he would see there that there are almost 1,300 licensed dance halls in this country.

Village halls.

I must really ask you, Sir, to protect the proprieties of this House from this running commentary on the part of Deputy Rooney or I will have to bring my tongue to bear on him again.

Send a copy of these particulars to Deputy Cowan.

There are almost 1,300 licensed dance halls. It is the patrons of these 1,300 dance halls who would benefit by this tax remission.

"Nonsense," says Deputy Morrissey, but Deputy Morrissey is a little bit like Deputy O'Higgins. Deputy O'Higgins has no regard for language either. This tax is not a tax on dance halls. A tax on dance halls was what Deputy O'Donnell was advocating. This tax is levied on payments for admission to any ball or dance. I never yet heard any proprietor of a dance hall paying a tax on behalf of the customers. When the entertainment duty for admission to cinemas was increased, no person alleged then that the tax was to be paid by the proprietors of the cinema. On the contrary, the Fine Gael people and the groups who composed the Coalition went around suborning every proprietor of a cinema in this country to display on his screen an announcement: "If you object to the increase in entertainment duty for admission to a cinema, go and see your T.D. about it, because you are to pay it." When the tax was reduced the price of admission was reduced. What is the use of trying to say that what applied in the case of the cinemas does not hold in the case of the dance halls?

Have you got an undertaking to that effect?

Did you get an undertaking to that effect? We will pursue the question a little further. Did you get an undertaking that the price of admission to cinemas would be reduced?

It was reduced.

Did Deputy Morrissey's Party get the undertaking which he is asking me did we get?

The people got the reduction and that is what counts.

It is clear that there was some discussion, that the cinema proprietors did not conduct this propaganda campaign on behalf of Fine Gael for nothing, that there was some consideration to be given for this first-class publicity which was given to them during the 1948 election. Therefore, from that I conclude that just as Fine Gael were not above taking a contribution from the publicans towards their campaign funds, neither were they above taking a contribution from the cinema proprietors, including of course the big British subsidiary which controls all the most important cinemas in this State, any more than the Labour Party were some years ago above taking a contribution from a big oil company in this country which was a subsidiary of a British oil company.

That is a lie.

Deputy O'Leary must withdraw that remark. Does Deputy O'Leary withdraw that remark?

What he said is not true.

Does the Deputy withdraw the remark?

I withdraw it.

There will be a few more contributors coming under the searchlight before this debate is over.

I was saying that it is quite clear from the terms of the section and from the statute that this tax is levied on admission to any dance hall, and is in fact paid by the patron of the dance hall. That is the point.

He will not get the remission.

In some cases there has to be a sort of composition. The organisers of these dances, particularly where functions are run by clubs or other bodies and where the means of the people for whom they are catering are limited, very often, as has been pointed out, have to carry the tax themselves and to that extent the returns which they secure from the functions are correspondingly diminished. In general, in so far as dance halls running proprietary dances are concerned the tax is paid by the person who patronises the dance hall. I am told, and I know it for a fact, that in the City of Dublin the competition between dance-hall proprietors is so keen that inevitably this remission will be passed on to the public.

It was not passed on before in 1946.

Inevitably it will be passed on to the public.

That did not happen before.

Neither Deputy Rooney nor Deputy Morrissey knows that.

They are not in a position to make any statement to that effect.

I definitely am.

The Deputy may make that statement but I am sorry to say that, in doing so, he has abandoned his customary sense of responsibility. It is difficult because of the complete disregard for facts, and even for words, which has characterised the course of this debate to answer all the points that have been made. We were told that the one reason why this section is objected to is because we could have done so much more with the money. Deputy Declan Costello made that case. He told us we could have done much better with the £140,000. To whom did he refer? He referred to the old age pensioners, to widows in receipt of non-contributory pensions, to those who are in receipt of tuberculosis allowances. One would think that Deputy Declan Costello had not been in this House during the last two months when we were putting through the Social Welfare Bill which was has now become an Act of the Oireachtas. Indeed, if one did think that, one would probably be right because the one thing that characterised the discussion on the Social Welfare Bill was the complete lack of interest in its provisions manifested by the Fine Gael Opposition. They boycotted the discussion. Now they come in and begin to weep crocodile tears on this Finance Bill because of the old age pensioners and because of the widows in receipt of non-contributory pensions and the persons in receipt of unemployment assistance. Each and every one of these classes has been dealt with and will be dealt with before this remission becomes a fact.

The Social Welfare Bill was ready for you.

It did not take us three years to put up a Social Welfare Bill to the House.

It took you 17 years.

And we were not staggering on the verge of defeat when we decided to increase the old age pensions as the Coalition Government were in March, 1951.

If you would not call what you are doing staggering, what would you call it?

The Minister must get a hearing without interruption.

What we promised and what we undertook to do we have done.

To the dance-hall proprietors.

Another group we were told which might be benefited by this £140,000 was, if you please, the Old I.R.A. pensioners. Deputy MacBride was very strong on that point, just as strong as Deputy Declan Costello. Anybody looking at Deputy MacBride to-night, shedding crocodile tears for the Old I.R.A. pensioners, would scarcely believe that he was ever a member of a Government which passed into law a Bill increasing the amount of every public pension but deliberately excluded from the ambit of the Act those who were in receipt of military service pensions. The pensions of civil servants up to a limit of £450 per annum were increased. The pensions of ex-Gardaí were increased. The pensions of ex-Army personnel were increased. In fact the pensions of certain classes of the R.I.C. were increased. The only class which was deliberately excluded from the 1950 Act was the Old I.R.A. Now these people come in here pleading that the Old I.R.A. could be benefited by this £140,000.

They released the prisoners, anyway.

Whatever Deputy MacBride, Deputy Declan Costello and the rest of the inter-Party Government did not do in regard to the Old I.R.A., we will not exclude them, and they will be looked after again as they were looked after before by us.

I am glad I have succeeded in forcing the Minister's hand.

The Deputy could not force an open door.

We forced you out of office.

The only thing the Deputy did was to force Deputy Dr. Noel Browne out of the inter-Party Government and force the inter-Party Government into opposition.

He took ten seats from you, and he will take them again.

When Deputies proceed to talk about a provision of this sort in the Finance Bill they ought at least to know what they are talking about. I never listened to a more lamentable display of ignorance in regard to certain provisions of the statute law of this country than I did when I listened to Deputy MacBride this afternoon. I do not want to enter into the question of the letters or the merits or demerits of the gentleman whose name has figured very largely in the course of this debate——

Whose name you tried to blacken under the privilege of this House.

——whose name has figured very largely in the course of this debate and figured particularly in Deputy MacBride's speech this afternoon. Does the Deputy know that there are other letters the Deputy wrote, not to the gentleman in question but about him, and it would be a great pity if some of these letters ever found their way into the Press.

This is a piece of blackmail. If the Minister has any letter he wants to produce, let him produce it and not try to blackmail people.

I do not want to produce any letters but I know there is in existence one in which a very clear reference is made. We will let it go at that.

Innuendoes. Blackmail. Trying to blackmail money out of people.

There are experts in blackmail in this House.

There is a very clear reference. I want to get back to the real point.

Blackmail. Innuendoes.

Deputy MacBride will please restrain himself.

It is amusing to see Deputy Captain Cowan coming to the assistance of the Minister in connection with letters.

The Minister quite improperly, I respectfully submit, made allegations about and an attack upon a person who is not capable of defending himself here and not only against that person but against his family. I respectfully submit he should not be allowed to renew these attacks to-night.

I must object to Deputy MacBride's interruption.

He is not being allowed.

I must object to Deputy MacBride's assertion that I made an attack on any person—certainly not on his family.

I understood that that phase of the discussion had concluded. I think that, for the sake of the dignity and decorum of the House, it might be left at that. The Minister on Section 14.

I hope the Minister understands that.

I was saying that I had seldom listened to a more lamentable display of ignorance in regard to the statute law of the country than I listened to to-day from Deputy MacBride. Deputy MacBride, in attempting to justify the letter to which I have referred, said that horse racing was heavily subsidised out of public funds. Of course, that is not so. Horse racing is not subsidised out of public funds. It is subsidised out of a levy of 10 per cent. imposed on the totalisator pool. The totalisator is not a public fund. The 10 per cent. from the totalisator pool is taken to cover the cost of running the totalisator, and the balance is utilised by the Racing Board to provide improved accommodation for the patrons of racing and enhanced prizes in stakes for horse racing. But the totalisator, again, is not a public fund. The levy on the totalisator pool is supplemented by a levy on bets with bookmakers taken on race courses. These levies are not part of the public funds. They do not go into the Exchequer, but they go to the Racing Board. The Racing Board is an independent body of control, set up here for the purpose of encouraging——

Is the Minister referring to the betting tax?

I am not referring to the betting tax.

I am only looking for information.

Deputy Morrissey need not try to mislead the House and cause confusion in the public mind. The betting tax is a tax which is imposed on S.P. bets off the race course, and I am sure the Deputy knows that.

I do not know anything at all about racing.

On the other hand, against that there is a levy imposed on bookmakers who are responsible for collecting it from their patrons—that is, on bets placed on the race course. But it is imposed by the Racing Board, and is collected by the Racing Board. The full disposal of that fund is under the control of the Racing Board and does not come into the Exchequer.

This is just another example of the manner in which Deputy MacBride will trade on the ignorance of his audience in order to deceive them in relation to a critical fact. However, I do not want to go further into that except to say that the argument which Deputy MacBride used to-day in order to extenuate his conduct in writing that letter to which reference has been made was in order to show that the transaction was in his mind perfectly open and above board. I am not prepared to say that it was not. The only thing I am saying is this, that it was no better or no worse than the letter which was written by the Secretary of the Dance Hall Proprietors' Association—no better and no worse. I am not putting it on any other plane than that. I do not think that there was in either case anything culpable.

Why did the Minister make so many speeches in 1947?

Because the Deputy, at that time, was going up and down the country making allegations of corruption against the then Government, and I had in my possession this letter. I read the terms of it. It was not a very happily phrased letter and was obviously written by a gentleman who was not aware of the sinister significance that might be attached to his words. But, in any event, since Deputy MacBride was accusing the Government of corruption, I asked him if the letter which his friend had issued indicated that Deputy MacBride and his Party were corrupt. I did not suggest that they were. I put the question to Deputy MacBride to answer as I am putting it to him to-night.

It is very far from the dance tax.

It is all relevant.

Tell the country why you are taking off the £100,000.

I am asked to tell the country why I am taking the tax off? Because, as I have said, it is an anomalous tax. It is a tax which runs completely counter to the whole character of the entertainments tax. I have here in my hand the terms of it. You can play tennis, you can play rugby, you can engage in all-in wrestling, you can box and swim and play hurling, you can play football, you can witness an exhibition of aeronautics and you will not be taxed. But if, as I have said, you take your wife to a dance you will pay tax on the admission fee. There is no sense in that, and there is no logic in it.

It should never have been?

Or go to the cinemas.

Of course, you were the gentlemen who reduced the tax on the cinemas. We did increase the tax on the cinemas. Apparently, it was all very well for the Coalition Government to reduce the tax on cinemas when they came into office, and it is all wrong for us to reduce the tax on dances. Mind you, the proceeds of the entertainments duty on dances are taken, as has been pointed out, very often from small clubs—very often from small people who are running these dances for public purposes. If one wished to express oneself in the same way as the Opposition have been expressing themselves on this section, one could say that, when the entertainments duty on cinemas was reduced, somebody was placing hundreds of thousands of pounds in the pockets of the cinema proprietors, and that at the same time they would not increase the Old I.R.A. pensions or make better provision for widows. That is absurd. and I am not putting forward that as an argument, but only to show how absurd is the position which the Opposition has taken up in regard to this matter.

You are trying to talk it out.

I was saying when I started that the general tone of the Opposition speeches in relation to this matter had no regard either for facts or figures, or for the value of words. Let us take Deputy Corish. Deputy Corish, like Deputy Rooney, Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy O'Higgins, does not know what the incidence of this tax is. When Deputy Cowan was speaking I think Deputy Corish kept up a running train of interruptions. When Deputy Cowan pointed out that football clubs very often run these dances Deputy Corish got up after him and said that Gaelic Athletic Association dances were exempt. That is not true.

They do not run dances. It is against their rules.

Whether they run dances or céilidhes they are not exempt. Gaelic Athletic Association social functions are not exempt from entertainments duty on dances. They fall under Section 14. What the Deputies in the Opposition are now contending for is that the Gaelic Athletic Association social functions, whether or not they are run as céilidhes and old-time dances, will pay entertainments duty unless Section 14 goes through. That is the point. The Opposition are contending also that even a debating society, to which Deputy Rooney occasionally might have resort, a literary society, an ordinary students' society in a college, or any such society, which runs a public dance and invites outside people to it will have to pay the entertainments duty. That is what you gentlemen are contending for. However, that is not all. If you happen to live in a town or a village the population of which does not exceed 500 you will not have to pay tax, but if the population of a village happens to be 501 then you must pay tax if you go to a dance.

I have in mind two or three places where, since the last census, persons who patronise dances will have to pay the duty on going into the dance. Let us see what else the members of the Opposition are contending for. It has been suggested here during the course of the debate that, after all, this is going to apply only to the large towns and cities. I think Deputy Rooney kept harping that dances are not going to be taxed in the rural areas. Let us see what, in fact, is the position in regard to County Dublin. I think Deputy Rooney represents, among other places, Finglas. He is now contending that all dances held in Finglas, Rush, Skerries, Windy Arbour — I do not know for certain whether or not he represents Windy Arbour — Finglas Bridge and Baldoyle, will be subject to the dance tax and all dances held within three miles of those centres will be subject to that tax. That is how he has regard for the social amenities of life in rural Ireland. He wants the boys and girls, who are paying their humble 2/6 to go into the dance, to be liable to pay entertainments duty on the amount which they pay for admission.

You are looking for money.

They pay the same still.

Will the Minister insist that proprietors will reduce the fees?

Proprietors do not charge admission fees. That is well known.

Of course they do.

No. They do not. They have to account to the Revenue Commissioners for the tax. They have to account very strictly and to the utmost extent to which the law can be enforced. Those who run proprietary dances have, in particular, to be very strict.

Be careful now.

Everybody who has gone to a county dance is as well aware as I am that when he tenders his ticket he gets, in return, a little ticket. That little ticket is the Revenue Commissioners' ticket. It has already been bought and paid for. It is the Revenue Commissioners who collect the money, and you have to make your deposit before you get a roll of tickets. The tickets are solemnly dished out to you as you go in. There is no use smiling. That is a fact. There is no use in any person telling me that, under that system, the patron does not pay the tax on the price of his admission to the dance.

The Minister is demolishing the case he made.

That tax varies. If the admission is 1/8, but does not exceed 2/-, then, in addition to the 2/-, another 6d. tax is charged. That makes a total payment of 2/6 on the part of the person going into the dance hall, of which tax represents 25 per cent. What Deputy Rooney and Deputy Cafferky and all the other members of the Fine Gael and the Labour Parties who represent rural areas are contending for now is that every working boy and working girl——

You are worried about them.

——every agricultural labourer, every farmer's son who happens to go to a dance in a town the population of which exceeds 500 or attends a dance hall within three miles of such a place, will pay at least 25 per cent. in addition to the price of admission which is charged by the proprietor.

Now let us see how many people there are who are going to be mulcted in this way if the Opposition have their way in this Budget. There are no less than 1,200,000 people in the State living in towns of 500 persons and upwards. Within the 2,900,000 men, women and children in this country at present, 1,200,000 are living in centres of population of 500 and upwards—and how many more are living within a radius of three miles of such a town?

And all dancing?

The Minister has not the foggiest idea what he is talking about.

They do not eat butter.

The distance of three miles is taken as the distance by the shortest route by public highway between the place of entertainment and the boundary of any of the places specified.

As the crow flies.

As you walk. Make no mistake about it, the ambit is very wide. Within three miles of the boundary of any of these towns— Dublin City, Cork City, Waterford City, Limerick City or within three miles of Ballina. Therefore, you will see that it would not be an exaggeration to say, when you take that fact into consideration, that at least half the people of this country——

Go in for ballet dancing.

——would be liable to the dance tax if they were able to go to the dance hall.

The Minister is in Leinster House now, not in Ballina.

He made a bad job of Ballina.

I heard an interesting interruption by Deputy MacBride. He asked what about the bread. Do you remember in 1948 when we were increasing the tax on drink in order to give the people cheaper bread? You had not very much regard for the people then. You thought that beer was a better foodstuff than bread. You reduced the price of it rather than give the people cheaper bread.

You were put out of office because of it.

Let us examine this question a little more. Let us see what sort of towns are going to be affected by it.

The Minister is talking this out.

He is not talking it out. He is not trying to do it.

The Minister is crackers.

I am afraid I shall have to wait until Deputy MacEoin and Deputy Morrissey retire to the smoke room for a smoke.

Go to the Four Provinces Ballroom.

It is the only thing that is free now.

You look nice in Dublin Opinion.

Deputies ought to have respect for the Minister's statement and allow him to make it.

Respect for the Minister, not for his statement.

The Minister's statement is complete repetition.

That is a matter for the Chair to decide.

That remark comes ill from a Deputy who has only arrived here from God knows where.

From Ballina, if you want to know.

It is a good job he did not miss the train.

Deputy O'Higgins was one of the people who suggested that the remission of this tax would only benefit the people in the towns and the cities. Deputy O'Higgins must be aware of the fact that there are in his constituency Portlaoighise, Mountmellick, Portarlington, Mountrath, Rathangan, Stradbally, Abbeyleix, Tullamore, Birr, Edenderry, Clara, Philipstown and Banagher. Any person going to a dance in any one of these towns or to any place within three miles of any one of these towns would have to pay the dance tax levied at the rate of 25 per cent.——

Did Deputy Cowan hear that?

——on the price he pays for admission. That is, roughly, the remission. Therefore, Deputy O'Higgins was contending that any one of his constituents living in these towns or within three miles of any one of them who went to a dance in his constituency should be charged 25 per cent. dance tax. That is what he was advocating.

I do not think there was any other point, in fact, made by anyone. Oh, yes. I cannot forget Deputy O'Donnell. Deputy O'Donnell comes from a very interesting constituency in this regard. Deputy O'Donnell comes from Donegal County and Deputy O'Donnell wanted us to believe that, after all, this did not affect dance halls in his constituency. He started off by saying that this did not affect dance halls in his constituency. Here are the towns of his constituency of population of 500 and upwards—not in his constituency but in the whole County of Donegal: Letterkenny, Buncrana, Ballyshannon —Deputy O'Donnell wants the people of Ballyshannon to be taxed every time they go to a dance.

There is no by-election there.

Donegal, Moville, Ramelton, Ballybofey, Raphoe, Killybegs. The Deputy often manifests a great deal of concern about the position of the people of Killybegs and of the fisher folk of Killybegs. They will be glad to know that he is so much concerned about them that he wants the Government, if they pay 2/- to go into a dance in Killybegs, to compel them to pay 6d. more. Similarly, if they happen by any chance to pay 4/-, he wants the Government to compel them to pay 1/- more and, if they pay 6/-, he wants the Government to compel them to pay 2/- more. That is the concern which Deputy O'Donnell manifested in his speech to-day for the people of Killybegs.

You are putting your hands in their pockets. It is 3/10 per lb. for butter.

Here is a very interesting point which Deputy O'Donnell put up to us. He was urging, of course, that the dance halls ought to be revalued, and that the dance-hall proprietors ought to be compelled to pay upon this valuation. I do not know how they could be revalued in any way which would increase their existing valuation, because they are at the moment valued strictly in accordance with law.

That might have been done under the Valuation Bill that you introduced but were afraid to put through.

Deputy Cafferky ought to conduct himself and allow the Minister to make his statement. If he does not respond to that request, I will have to make another request to him.

The suggestion now is that the incidence of this tax should be shifted from the patron of the dance to the proprietor of the dance hall. It is strange that those who have made that suggestion have not seen that they were giving their own case away because Deputy O'Donnell, like Deputy Rooney, was one of those who contended that the incidence of this tax did not fall upon the patron of the dance and that, therefore, he would get no benefit if a tax were remitted. Deputy O'Donnell, on the other hand, quite clearly recognised that the patron of the dance hall would get a benefit if this tax were remitted. He wanted the matter dealt with in the other way. Listen to what it was. It was that the dance-hall proprietor would be taxed, not the patron — and that he should be taxed on the valuation of his dance hall. There is another Act on the Statute Book, an Act passed by a Fianna Fáil Government also.

He is being overcute now. He will not get it now.

I am not going to talk anything out.

If you only want this section, that is all right.

I am not going to talk anything out. I have lots of time, and lots of time to-morrow morning, if necessary.

It is the last Act you will ever pass.

Deputy O'Donnell wants us to levy a tax on the valuation of a dance hall. What would be the effect of that? If, by any chance, we were to do as he suggested, to levy the tax at an enhanced rate, an increased rate, an undue rate, on the dance hall, they would come in here and they would be squealing about the poor dance-hall proprietor in just the same way as they are squealing at the moment about the poor publican.

We heard quite a lot of complaints from the Opposition about the fact that the Commissioner of Valuation has been revaluing licensed premises which have been improved in later years and because these improved premises are, naturally, valued at a higher figure than they were before the improvements, renovations and reconstructions were carried out, the valuations went up; the local authority gets more out of the rates; we get some small increase in income-tax and in licence duty. But, the point about it is that, the moment it is done, the Opposition come in here squealing about it and they say it is unfair that a man should be taxed if he improves his premises. But, it is not unfair, apparently, according to Deputy O'Donnell, to tax a dance-hall proprietor if he improves his dance hall, if he provides proper sanitation and proper amenities. Then he is going to be taxed, according to Deputy O'Donnell's plan, more heavily. If he is content to go along with any sort of old shack or barn, which would be a menace and danger to the public health, then, of course, he gets scot-free from Deputy O'Donnell's method of tax. The one thing which would happen in that case would be that, if we were to tax 1,200 or 1,300 dance-hall proprietors according to their valuation, the tax would fall most heavily upon the halls which, from a public health point of view and other points of view, are the most desirable to have in the country and the shacks and the disused barns and other such buildings would go scot-free. That is Deputy O'Donnell's proposal to brighten and improve the amenities of rural life in Ireland.

Then, again, we have this other proposal. Deputy O'Donnell told us that he was acting for a considerable number of dance-hall proprietors in Donegal. He said that solicitors had to collect £2 licence fees. That £2 licence fee does not come to the State at all. I think it goes to the local authority. It is the ordinary registration fee which is payable, again, under the Public Dance Hall Act, which was passed by a Fianna Fáil Government, one of the minor reforms which we carried out in an endeavour to ensure that, so far as dance halls existed in the rural areas or in any part of the country, they would be safe from the point of view of fire, that they would be as hygienic and as acceptable from a public health point of view as was possible in the circumstances of the areas in which they were built. The whole effect of this would be that these 20 dance-hall proprietors for whom Deputy O'Donnell operates would of course have to pay the licence duty. What would happen? Do you think they would pay it out of their own pocket? Does anyone believe that a publican in Dublin pays the licence duty on his premises out of his own pocket? Would not all of this be passed back on to the shoulders of the patrons, with of course the added profit that the dance-hall proprietor would feel that he would have to charge on his outlay? That is not the position in relation to the dance tax. The proprietor does not get anything for collecting the tax because the tax is paid by the patron of the dance hall. In the reverse situation, if you have the incidence of the tax put on the dance-hall proprietor, the dance hall proprietor pays it out of his pocket and inevitably he will pass it on as part of his charges, in the same way as he passes on rates, rents and the cost of his licence, to the patron. The patron again will be mulcted and it will not be the dance-hall proprietor. There is, therefore, no advantage from the point of view of the dance-hall patron in accepting the proposal made by Deputy O'Donnell.

I should like to refer to another matter before concluding. Deputy Cowan and Deputy Kennedy have brought out the point well. Mind you, the vast majority of the halls which are licensed for dancing in this country are not proprietary halls in the sense that they are not halls in which dances are run by the owners of the hall for their own private profit. They are, in general, halls which are vested in one public society or another. They are parish halls, club halls or trade union halls—halls which are let out by various organisations to groups of people who want to run dances in order to raise funds for one desirable purpose or another, such as a football club, a dramatic society or one or other of these organisations which cater for the social life of the common people of Ireland. That is one of the most regrettable features of the attitude which the Opposition have taken up. If you are living in the City of Dublin and you move in certain social circles, it does not matter very much, if you are going to one of the fashionable ballrooms and you have to pay an admission fee of 15/- or a £1, whether 3/- or 4/- dance tax is added to the price of your ticket. It is a very different matter, as every Deputy knows who has had any association or is familiar with social conditions in the towns and villages or working-class districts, where you are paying 2/6, 3/- or 3/6 to go into a dance. It is these people, the working-class people of the country, who paid the greater share of this tax we collected. Out of the £140,000 revenue, I venture to say that at least £100,000 was collected from what you may describe as workers, urban workers and rural workers throughout Ireland. That is what the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party are contending that we should continue.

You are worried about the workers.

It is for the maintenance of that imposition on the working class of this country that Deputy O'Leary and Deputy Dunne are going into the Division Lobby to vote, if they are going to vote against the remission of this tax.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough.)
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry.)
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

What is it about?

The general purpose is that in levying the ad valorem duty the duty would be levied on the price paid by a typical independent purchaser. Sometimes there may be house-to-house transactions in respect of which goods will be invoiced to the subsidiary house or the agent of a principal outside this country at a price at which they would not be sold to an independent purchaser. The purpose is to ensure that the general intention, which is that the ad valorem duty should be levied on the price paid by a typical independent purchaser will be fulfilled.

Is this a new principle of taxation?

No, it is not. It is the ordinary normal principle. We tried to give effect to it in the 1933 Act. What we are proposing here in this Bill is to adopt the Belgian Convention relating to the levy of customs duty ad valorem.

If it is not new, why this, which is a completely new section?

Because we are adopting the Belgian Convention concerning the valuation of goods in relation to the payment of customs duty.

Then it is new.

It is new to the extent that, though it does not introduce a new principle, it makes the principle, so to speak, effective.

But Section 15 is not described as being an amendment of anything that has gone before.

Therefore, it is either filling a gap or introducing a new system.

It does not introduce either a new system or a new principle but, if the Deputy wishes, it expresses more precisely what the original intention was.

How was the original intention legally indicated before?

By a section in another Finance Act.

Are we repealing that?

I understand it is not necessary to repeal it. This is in substitution for it.

It is all very mysterious.

There is a principle in the American Customs code, which was originally introduced nominally for the purpose of getting an ad valorem duty assessed on imports and which in the judgment of the equivalent of the Revenue Commissioners here would equitably fulfil the purpose of the original tax instrument.

Therefore, under that the Revenue Commissioners were authorised to determine arbitrarily the nature of an import. Out of that there grew the administrative practice of fixing the ad valorem duty on an imported article at the rate which applied to that element in the finished article which carried the highest rate of duty. Therefore, we might have an ad valorem duty fixed on gloves of 25 per cent. and an ad valorem duty on buttons of 100 per cent. whereupon the Revenue Commissioners, or their equivalent in the United States of America, asserted and subsequently established their right to assess the duty on gloves at the rate appropriate to buttons.

Now, as I understand the Minister's explanation of this new section, if a firm in Great Britain has a subsidiary in Ireland and they consign to their subsidiary for sale or processing in Ireland a commodity which is genuinely invoiced as between the principal and the subsidiary at 10s. per unit, we seek to vest in the Revenue Commissioners the right to say: "If this firm had been invoicing these goods to somebody other than their subsidiary in Ireland they would have set out the price in the invoice at 17/6 per unit; therefore, although in the Irish subsidiary will only pay the principal in England 10/- for its articles, we shall assess the duty on the assumption that they will pay 17/6 for them."

Unless some grave abuse exists, it seems to me to be a dangerous principle to introduce charging the Revenue Commissioners with the task not only of satisfying themselves that the invoices submitted are genuine and honest records of the sale and purchase relating to the goods to be taxed but also giving them the right to say: "Although we are satisfied that the trade documents submitted are valid and true, we assert that had this transaction taken place between you and a third party you would have charged a different price and we will levy the duty on what we arbitrarily say you would have charged if you had invoiced these goods to somebody else."

I cannot quite see at the moment how far that principle can be expanded administratively. Does it create a situation in which the proof of the validity of documents submitted to the Revenue Commissioners goes by the board and will anybody bringing goods in here now be liable to find himself in the situation that obtains in the United States of America where, although his documents are perfectly valid and true, that is no guarantee whatsoever that he can foresee what rate of duty he will have to pay because the Revenue Commissioners say that the invoiced price should be twice what is actually charged and accordingly levy customs duty at that rate?

Do I correctly interpret the effect of this section? If I do, does not the Minister think that this is creating an entirely new precedent so far as our system of revenue collection is concerned? Does it not introduce an element of uncertainty into our external trade, such an element as undoubtedly obtains in the United States of America, and which has been an occasion of very great hardship to those seeking to trade with that country, and which may become a similar circumstance of hardship for those trading with this? Surely it is a sound principle of taxation that taxes should be certain and uniform in reso pect of everybody who becomes subject to them. Does not this section introduce an entirely new principle? Does it not provide that taxes shall be neither uniform nor universal but at the discretion of the Revenue Commissioners, and that there shall be a special distinction made in respect of any exporters to this country upon whom they choose to levy an exceptional duty?

Would you permit me to raise as a matter of privilege two statements made here by the Minister for Finance which, if not corrected at this stage, could give a totally unwarranted impression of a political Party that has been represented here with clean hands for the past 30 years? Speaking in this House to-day——

I must protest against this.

You must hear this.

I submit this is not the time——

Is this a point of order?

It is not a point of order.

Then sit down. Deputy Norton is raising a point of order.

The Minister is entitled to make a point of order.

But he said he is not making a point of order. We cannot all get up and start shouting and yelling.

The Minister is entitled——

The Minister may rise to make a point of order or he may rise to create a riot, but he cannot rise for any other purpose. Is the Minister making a point of order or is he initiating a riot?

If the Deputy sits down and listens he will understand what I am saying.

It is Deputy Dillon who is starting the riot.

I am raising a point of order. Deputy Norton was speaking.

Deputy Norton has given way to the Minister.

Has the Deputy given way?

I am waiting until the Leas-Cheann Comhairle rules.

Is this a point of order?

Sit down!

The Chair cannot give a ruling on the point of order until the Minister has been allowed to develop it.

I understood the Minister did say that he did not wish to raise a point of order.

He did say that.

(Interruptions.)

Is the Minister raising a point of order?

I am not responsible to the Deputy for my conduct in this House, but to the Chair.

Then I wish to raise a point of order. Will the Minister please sit down?

The Minister is raising a point of order.

He said he was not.

I want to put this, Sir, to you——

Is this a point of order?

I cannot say until I hear the Minister.

Is the Minister raising a point of order?

The Minister rose on a point of order.

He said he was not raising a point of order.

I am addressing the Chair and not Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Dillon. I have no responsibility to either Deputy.

Is it a point of order?

The Deputy must allow the Minister to make his point of order.

Is it a point of order?

I cannot say until I hear the Minister develop his point.

(Interruptions.)

I am putting it to you, Sir, that the business of the House was ordered to-day in the usual way and that the question we are discussing is Section 15 of the Finance Bill. I now submit that Deputy Norton's intervention in this debate——

The Chair has already given permission to Deputy Norton to raise this question.

I have had no intimation of it nor had the House.

It has now.

If Deputy Norton wanted to raise this matter, then, according to the rules and conventions of the House, he should have raised it after questions.

Do not be talking nonsense. Deputy Gallagher did the same thing the other day.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is now getting a lecture from the Minister as to how he should run the business.

I am objecting——

You can object but you will have to hear this. You cannot be telling lies all the time and getting away with it.

Is that an order?

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dillon has the riot organised.

Deputy Corish must withdraw the reference which he made to the Minister.

I withdraw the word "lie" and substitute the word "falsehood".

The reference must be withdrawn unreservedly.

Can the House be informed what is the point of order and what is the ruling of the Chair on it?

I am putting it to the Chair that the business of the House was ordered in the usual way to-day, and that the order made by the House which, I submit, is binding on the Chair, was that the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill would be resumed at 7.30 p.m. If Deputy Norton wishes to raise any other matter, there is the normal time in which to do it.

Listen to this lecture! It is ridiculous. Deputy Norton wants to make a simple statement and he will not be allowed.

The House is discussing——

I respectfully suggest, Sir, that you send for the Ceann Comhairle.

I am putting it to the Chair that this matter should have been raised, if at all, at the usual time, that is to say, after questions to-day. The House ordered the business for this afternoon and this evening and its order did not include any statement by Deputy Norton or by any other Deputy.

The Chair understood from Deputy Norton that he wished to raise a matter which arose directly out of the Finance Bill that is being discussed by the House The Chair agreed, as there was a precedent for it, that if Deputy Norton wished to make a short explanation he would be permitted to do so.

Am I going——

Am I going to be permitted to reply to Deputy Norton, because I can reply to Deputy Norton, and very effectively.

On a point of order.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Cowan on a point of order.

On a point of order, if I am permitted to make it. This House, by order of the House, is dealing with the Finance Bill, and as one Deputy of the House I do not agree to that order being changed.

The Chair has ruled that Deputy Norton is entitled to make an explanation.

I do not agree that anybody can alter the business of this House without the consent of the House.

Deputy Norton is entitled to raise this matter since it arises directly out of the Finance Bill that is being discussed by the House.

I put it to you, Sir——

Deputies

Chair! Chair!

I do not know what matter Deputy Norton proposes to raise.

The Chair should send for the Ceann Comhairle and have the Minister named for obstructing the business.

It does not arise on Section 15, and Section 15 is what we are discussing.

(Interruptions.)

This matter would have been over in very much less time if it had not been for the Minister's deliberate attempt to suppress the truth. Here is the position. Speaking in this House on the 6th June on the Finance Bill, as reported at column 867, the Minister for Finance said:—

"I would advise Deputy O'Leary to go and see how much the Labour Party got from certain oil interests in this country in 1935 and 1936."

How much did you get?

Have some decency in debate in this House.

(Interruptions.)

This evening the Minister repeated that statement in even more deliberate language, when he said:—

"... that some years ago the Labour Party were not above taking a contribution from a big oil company in this country which was a subsidiary of a British oil company."

These are the two statements made by the Minister, one in the Official Report from which I have quoted, and the other, an extract from a speech made this evening. I only want to say this, that nobody can make these statements without knowing that they were deliberate falsehoods.

No contribution of any kind whatever was ever made to the Labour Party by an oil company, a British subsidiary, or any type of oil company. Not one farthing was ever received by the Labour Party from any such concern. That is a positive statement. If the Minister wants the matter put to the test, he has an easy way of doing it.

I invite the Minister now to get any judge of any court in this country to investigate the funds of the Labour Party and their accounts, which will be made available, which will prove conclusively that that is a deliberate falsehood. Secondly, I invite the Minister to make that charge personally outside the privilege of this House against any member of the Labour Party, so that the case can be decided in the court. Then we shall have the truth established.

I want to deny categorically the statements which the Minister made. They are a gross perversion of the truth. They are deliberate falsehoods which could have been made only by a Minister who washes his tongue so frequently in the cesspool of filth.

Will the Chair please tell me how I am to deal with this? Will the Chair be good enough to inform me how I am to deal with that statement. Am I to use the language of the gutter?

You never used anything else.

Am I to use the language——

We offer the Minister the freedom of this House.

——the language of Deputy O'Leary——

Any language you like.

——with the £50,000, or am I——

Who got that?

On a point of order. Are we going to have a general discussion to-night on this allegation by the Minister?

There will be no discussion. The Minister is entitled to reply.

Will the Chair rule on how the Minister for Finance is to behave?

I should like Deputy Norton to tell the country how it was that in 1937 every garage in this country was distributing gratis copies of the United Irishman, full from cover to cover with attacks on the Government proposal to establish an independent oil refinery in this country and how the Labour Party helped the combined oil companies to sabotage it?

Is that the best you can do? That is Deputy "MuckEntee" for you.

Is the Minister still to get away with the allegations he made here?

I will make some more——

You will tell some more of your lies.

——statements about the efforts of the British trade unions to smash an Irish trade movement.

Tell us about the Ballina Convention.

You will hear all about that later on.

There is a wellknown bag of wind called a dying pig. It goes up with a squeak.

Deputy Blowick must cease interrupting. Is the section agreed to?

When this matter arose we were discussing the comparative revenue administrations of Belgium, the United States and the Republic of Ireland with a view to determining what exactly the Minister had in mind and whether I was right in believing that this section operated to introduce a new principle into our revenue law which, were it expanded indefinitely, would be open to abuse. I think the Minister will understand that the section is a long and comprehensive section with a schedule attached. He tells us that it is made in pursuance of a Belgian Convention. I do not apologise to the House when I admit that I am not familiar with the convention to which the Minister refers. I should be grateful to him if he would give us, in some greater detail than he has thought necessary so far, information as to what kind of situations this is intended to deal with and in how far we control its operation by the terms of the section he submits.

What is this section about? We do not know.

The Deputy asked me that question before and I answered him fully but the Deputy was not listening.

I was listening. I have not heard what it means. The question was asked whether this was something new—whether it was a new principle and, if not, then what did it replace. I should like again to make the point I thought I had made clear enough to the Minister. Section 15 nowhere is in reference to any other section of any other. Finance Act. The Schedule does not mention any other Finance Act. It appears, therefore, that neither the section nor the Schedule repeal any other section of the Finance Act. I understand, therefore, that that is something which has been introduced for the first time. If that is not so, then it is an amendment of or a substitution for something previously in force. Where do we find the section that is substituted by this? Surely I am entitled to know that. Where is that substitution?

I do not know whether the Deputy is anxious to get this information. I gave it to him before. He asked if we were introducing any new principle. I said no. I said that hitherto the principle was that ad valorem duties should be based on the price of the goods to a typical independent importer. I then went on to describe that there were cases in what were known as “house-to-house” transactions in which the importer may be an agent for an outside supplier and in which the duty, if levied on these house-to-house invoices, would not be levied on the true value. I said that no section was proposed to be repealed. It was not necessary to repeal any section but the existing section, which is amplified and expressed more precisely, which is, so to speak, contained within the proposed new section is Section 25 of the Finance Act of 1938. It reads:—

"Section 34 of the Finance Act, 1933 (No. 15 of 1933), is hereby repealed and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that the value of any article or goods for any of the purposes of this Act or any other Act (whether passed before or after this Act) relating to the customs or of any Order relating to the customs heretofore or hereafter made under any Act (whether passed before or after this Act) shall, in the absence of provision to the contrary, be taken to be the price which, in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners——"

I trust this fully answers Deputy Dillon:

"——an importer would give for such article or goods if such article or goods were delivered, freight and insurance paid, in bond at the place of importation."

That is the principle to which Section 15 proposes to give effect. The manner in which the value of the imported goods shall be computed is set out in the Third Schedule. Subsection (1) defines that: "The value of any imported goods shall be taken to be the normal price, that is to say, the price which they would fetch at the time when they are entered for home consumption (or, if they are not so entered, the time of importation), on a sale in the open market between buyer and seller independent of each other." That is the basis upon which it has been usual—— A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I was asked a question. I shall sit down until this conversation is ended.

I am reading this while the Minister is reading it aloud for the House.

I am sorry. Deputy Dillon was not the interrogator in this case. It happened to be Deputy McGilligan. He was so interested in the information which he pressed me to give him that he has been engaging in a running conversation with Deputy Corish while I was replying to his question.

You can get this through easily or not. It depends on yourself. Do not display yourself as a silly, little man at this hour of night. If you do not want this to go through, then continue behaving as you are behaving. I can read faster than the Minister. That does not explain the point I made. The Minister is only repeating verbatim what is there.

The Deputy did not make any point, then. He asked if it introduced a new principle. I said no. I said that the principle of Section 25 in the Act of 1938 is embodied in the proposed new Section 15.

And does Section 25 still remain?

Yes. It is not necessary to repeal it, as the Deputy will see. Shall I read the paragraph of sub-section (1) of Section 15 so that I may call the Deputy's attention to the significant words?

You are talking of the phrase, no matter what was said somewhere else.

We all know the Deputy's technique in these matters. He delights in trying to trip some person. He asked me was it repealed. I did not fall into the trap. I told him that it was not, that the one thing was included within the other. Now that he is aware of that fact, I assume we can get on with the business.

So that the Minister gets out of either reading or explaining.

He has learned a little bit from the conversation. He will learn a bit more.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Leary, Johnny
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fh eórais.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 16.
Question proposed: "That Section 16 stand part of the Bill."

What is Section 16 about?

It has been a practice of long standing, where the precise amount of customs duty payable on goods imported is difficult to determine, to allow the delivery of the goods to take place on the security of a deposit covering the approximate amount of duty, the deposit being subsequenlty adjusted when the proper duty has been determined. The purpose of this section is to give more precise legal sanction for that practice.

Question put and declared carried.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, June 11th, at 10.30 a.m.
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