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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 12

Leinster House Incident.

I have investigated the complaint of privilege made in the House yesterday by Deputy J. A. Costello, when he reported that an assault had been made on Deputy Seán Collins by the Minister for Education in the precincts of the House a short while previously.

In investigating the circumstances surrounding the incident, I interviewed the parties concerned and had for my information several reports from officials who had some knowledge of this regrettable occurrence. There is no practical difference between the parties concerned as to the actual events.

I am satisfied that the facts are substantially as stated by Deputy Costello, the Minister for Education being admittedly the aggressor and having assaulted Deputy Collins. I find that this assault constituted an action in contempt of Parliament.

The Minister informed me that the reason for his action was in retaliation of a charge against the personal honour of a fellow-member of his Party made by Deputy Collins the night before. This cannot be considered in any sense as justifying or mitigating the offence. The charge, however, made by Deputy Seán Collins on the previous evening against Deputy Killilea was in violation of the Rules of Order of Dáil Éireann.

As the incident complained of by Deputy J.A. Costello occurred outside the Dáil Chamber, it is not covered by the rules adopted by the Dáil which vest in the Ceann Comhairle the power of dealing with disorder in the House itself. The incident, however, constituting an act in contempt of Parliament, falls to be dealt with by Dáil Éireann in such manner as the members may in their wisdom decide.

Such action must be taken in accordance with the rules governing the procedure by which decisions are reached in Dáil Éireann.

A Cheann Comhairle, through you, Sir, as the person who is primarily charged with the responsibility for safeguarding the privileges of members of Dáil Éireann and of upholding the Rules of Order of the House, which are so essential for the maintenance of parliamentary democracy, I would like to ask the Taoiseach, as Leader of the House, what action he proposes to take following the statement made by the Chair.

I agree it is essential for the reputation of this House and, ultimately, for the safeguarding of representative government, that incidents such as those that have occurred recently should be prevented in so far as it is at all possible to do so.

It is not enough when these incidents are reported that there should be simply an apology. A great deal of harm has been done, and there is only one way that I know to deal with the matter, and that is to institute here, as we do elsewhere, a definite rule of law which will govern cases of that sort. As you, Sir, have explained, we have not any such definite code apparently to cover it. At one time I pointed out that this question of privilege needed examination and had proposed, and did indeed at the time get a majority decision from this House, in favour of it, setting up a committee to deal with this whole question of privilege and the maintenance of the rights of this House. It was thought proper by the Opposition at the time not to co-operate in the intention of that resolution.

I think the time has come when we ought definitely to set up a committee, either of the two Houses or of this House alone, to go into this whole question of privilege, abusive personal remarks and personal imputations, which are the cause of incidents of this sort, because, apparently, the view is that there is no protection given in this House against such remarks, and that those who wish to protect themselves against imputations of that sort have to take, so to speak, the law into their own hands. That is deplorable. The way to prevent it is to have definite rules of order agreed upon with definite penalties which can be enforced to prevent personal imputations from being cast from one side of the House to the other. These imputations are obviously irrelevant to debate. This is supposed to be a deliberative Assembly, where we decide a question as a result of argument on the definite merits of the question. Personal attacks are irrelevant in regard to that, and it is essential, therefore, that strong penalties should be enforced against people who are guilty of making such imputations.

I think we ought to get at the root of this matter and, therefore, I suggest that later on, as you have indicated, Sir, the action which will have to be taken by the House will have to be taken in accordance with the rules laid down. I would propose to consider this whole question and similar previous incidents which have occurred recently, and bring a motion to this House that a committee of the House or of the two Houses be set up to deal with this whole question of privilege which will cover not merely actions in this House and in the precincts of this House but actions outside the immediate precincts. I have not made up my mind as to any further steps that can be taken or should be taken at the moment, but I do agree that this sort of thing should not be allowed to continue as, if it did, it would bring into disrepute all our parliamentary institutions because it would tend to develop. I propose, therefore, that we should deal with this matter and set up such a committee.

I must express dissatisfaction with the statement of the Taoiseach. I do not wish to say anything in the course of the few remarks which I intend to make which would in any way exacerbate the feelings which have been aroused as a result of recent incidents. Much might be said, perhaps, on both sides about them. Much might be said upon the degree of forbearance which members of my Party have had to exercise in the interests of the decorum of this House in recent months.

The matter which I wish to underline and emphasise at the moment is that we are dealing with a particular incident, one of the gravest which has occurred in the history of this Parliament since it was established 30 years ago. The Taoiseach has not dealt with that particular incident. He has endeavoured—I hope it is not merely with a view to drawing a red herring over the real gravity of the affair—to deal with the general question as to whether or not there ought to be penalties attaching to statements made by Deputies in the course of parliamentary debate or breaches of privilege.

The suggestion which he has made undoubtedly raises issues of very serious import. On its face, it appears very simple to say that we ought to have an inquiry into the proper method of finding adequate measures to deal with breaches of parliamentary privileges by Deputies. There would, however, also have to be safeguards in any measure proposed as a result of such inquiry against a tyranny which might be imposed upon Parliament by a parliamentary majority. I venture to say that merely for the purpose of demonstrating that it is no simple matter to decide it in the way the Taoiseach has suggested to decide it and that in making that suggestion he has side-tracked the issue before us now, that without provocation a Minister of State has committed an unprovoked assault, accompanied by very unwarranted language, upon a Deputy of the Opposition. I want to know what steps in reference to that particular incident the Taoiseach proposes as Leader of the House to take because we on this side of the House cannot, or at all events the Fine Gael Party cannot allow the matter to remain in the way suggested by the Taoiseach.

I know that this is a matter to be dealt with by the House itself. I know of no better way of doing it than by setting up a committee to deal with it and with the general question which it raises. Justice demands in a case of this sort that it is not simply the disease but the cause of the disease that has to be dealt with and, if this is to be done properly, it will have to be dealt with as a general question and, if it is thought proper, it can be regarded as having reference back, but I do not see very well how it would be possible to have rules for penalties which would apply to an offence which was committed before the rules were made. The fact is that we have no means definitely in this House of dealing with it except by the House itself and, if it is desired by the House, we will give time for a motion that a committee be set up to investigate this and other incidents. I think the only way in which we can deal with this matter is to deal with it as one of a number of incidents which have occurred, and occurred for the same reason.

The Leader of the Opposition says that a great deal of restraint has to be exercised by members on the other side. There ought to be no reason for restraint, because it ought to be impossible under the Rules of Order for a person to make imputations here and sit down quietly afterwards. These things should be prevented at their source and that is what I propose to the House.

I still must express extreme dissatisfaction at the attitude of the Taoiseach. He is evading the issue which is that a Minister of State has assaulted without any justification a private member of this House. That is the incident that has to be dealt with irrespective of whether or not other incidents require to be investigated or require to be considered. If the Taoiseach does not wish to take any other action except to consider the matter and to set up a committee such as he suggested, then we must take action on our own. I want to make this further and final observation. This Parliament has been in existence for nearly 30 years. During a great part of that time there was great and serious strife amongst the Parties in the House and outside the House. There was violent controversy in this House from time to time. But until the last 12 months no such incidents as assaults by Deputies on other Deputies occurred.

Deputies

Nonsense.

I do not see what the Deputy expects us to do. Am I to pass judgment on a certain incident when I know perfectly well—I was not here myself but I know from what has been told—that provocation which should not have been given was given to every member here? I admit that when provocation is given, one should not give way to it. I want to see, however, before you take any action in a particular case, that there are sufficiently strong rules to prevent any possibility of provocation. I feel that it would be unjust to deal with the results without dealing with the causes.

May I point out that the Taoiseach has put the rhetorical question is he to decide, or is he to be judge in this matter? He is not. The Ceann Comhairle has already judged the matter. He is the sole person who can give a judgment on the points raised and it remains for the House to carry that judgment to its logical conclusion.

Very well. As Leader of the House, what I would propose is to set up a committee to consider this matter and to consider other matters generally in connection with it—to consider the sources of the provocation as well as the results.

That evades the issue. If the Taoiseach does not propose to deal with it we shall have to take our own course.

What the leader of the Opposition wants is that I should act as judge?

I do not. You have no function to act as judge.

Then to act as executioner?

If you like to put it that way.

Very well. I do not believe that there is such a position that I should. If the House wants to discuss it it can be done. Under the Rules of Order we are prepared to give time for discussion.

Does the Taoiseach propose to justify an effort at physical violence on every occasion on which there are verbal exchanges?

What I want to say is this. If a person insults me and I have no redress other than to knock him down, and I am fit to knock him, I will do so.

That is a very good contribution to the decorum of this House.

It is honest.

It is the law of the jungle.

Very well. If you are anxious to get it you will get it but as long as there is a rule of law, I shall obey the rule of law.

There is not. Is a man to be permitted to come along and make all the insinuations some of which we have heard in this House on many occasions——

What about the insinuations your people have made against Deputies over here, time and again?

I want to see all this ended once and for all, and to establish a rule of law.

It may be necessary to summon the Dáil next week to deal with the situation.

All right.

I take it the Taoiseach will reflect meanwhile on the statement he has just made.

I have reflected.

He will appreciate that if the course of action he has suggested is to be pursued it will apply to both sides of the House, and that in the end this Parliament will cease to be a debating Assembly and will become a boxing ring. Is that what the Taoiseach wants?

The Deputy knows well what I want. I want to see proper order.

I do not think any useful purpose can be served by continuing this discussion. There is nothing before the House at the moment. I do not think any useful purpose could be served by a desultory discussion.

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