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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Appropriation Bill, 1952—(Resumed).

Mr. Byrne

This discussion gives me an opportunity of fulfilling a promise I made to very many Dublin unemployed workers. The position at the North Wall at the moment is very serious. There are about a dozen men for every job that becomes vacant and some hundreds of men are idle at the North and South Walls. There does not appear to be any chance of early employment for them and they have to meet the heavily increased cost of living brought about recently by the Budget, a Budget which raised the price of the loaf of bread from 6d. to 9d. or 9½d. That appears to be causing a good deal of worry in the City of Dublin and I promised these unemployed men that I would raise their case here, and see if the Government could suggest any schemes of work that would absorb their energies.

There are a few public boards here in Dublin which could give good paying employment if they speeded up matters. We have been promised two or three new bridges to ease the traffic situation for the past few years and if this work were undertaken early it would give reasonably good employment to a very large number. That, however, will not absorb the unemployed dockers. There do not appear to be very many goods going out from the North or South Walls, nor does there appear to be very much coming in, and these men are waiting outside the offices for a call to some temporary or, if possible, permanent work. They want to know from the Government before they adjourn for nearly three months what they are going to do for them. This House is to go on holidays for three months with Dublin in its present condition and the plight of the Dublin unemployed so serious and I suggest that the Government ought to make arrangements for the appointment of an emergency committee to deal with unemployment problems during the absence of Dáil members for the next three months.

The building of these bridges I referred to would give employment to a certain number. That means the release of money and the Government could probably encourage other local authorities to go ahead with relief schemes. Unfortunately, we are back to where we were 15 or 20 years ago when it was necessary to have relief schemes frequently in the City of Dublin. If the Government would encourage local authorities to go ahead with relief schemes and promised substantial grants, it would ease the situation to a certain degree.

Within the last month or two, we have had many questions asking for the Emigration Commission report and asking also if the Government proposed to give us any satisfaction regarding the continued emigration from this country of young men and women who are leaving our shores, where their energies might be absorbed in building up their own country at decent wages, not only in dozens but hundreds every week. Some of these are married men who are going away to take up employment—they do not have to go to America now—in Great Britain.

This means keeping two homes, and keeping two homes on the wages these men earn, with the 6d. loaf gone up to 9d. and every other commodity they buy so far as foodstuffs are concerned, from the smallest to the largest article, increased in price by at least 20 per cent. in the past couple of years. These are the facts as I know them in the city, and we ask the Government to tell us what proposals they have for that type of person who is left without work, and without sufficient money to provide the necessary food for his large family.

Deputy Norton had a question down with regard to the much boasted about increased national health benefits for the sick and those unable to earn their living for the time being. They got a slight increase. We have a scheme of benefits for tuberculosis sufferers which enables them to stay in sanatoria and hospitals for much longer periods, with the result that they improve in health. We are all glad to know that tuberculosis in this country is rapidly declining, according to reports from all our public health authorities. These national health benefits are increased, and these people get 7/- or 8/- and the authorities —the Government pays 50 per cent.— reduce the tuberculosis allowance by 9/- or 10/-. As a result of the so-called increase under the Social Services Act, they are left with a couple of shillings less at the end of the week, although their bread has gone up from 6d. to 9d. and their butter from 3/- to 3/10. We know that, in the case of a tubercular family, butter is a most essential food.

All these things are happening just as this House is about to adjourn and we will have no opportunity of raising matters by way of question. I am a great believer in questions. I have very little influence in the House in the way of getting anything remedied, but for a Private Deputy the parliamentary question is the best method. It gives them an opportunity of exposing grievances and making those at the head of affairs remedy them when they are sufficiently exposed. For the next three months we will be deprived of that opportunity.

The Minister for Defence has been asked questions by his own colleagues who took an active interest in an increased pension for the Old I.R.A. There are not many of the old hands left and now that they are getting old something additional should be given to them to meet the cost of living. Any time that the question was raised from any side of the House, however, we were told that he could not give a decision on whether legislation would be introduced or not. We are now adjourning without knowing whether he will introduce legislation or give increased pensions.

The question has been asked from three different parts of the House whether school teachers who retired prior to January, 1951, would get the benefit of the lump sum which was promised. Every time we raised that question we were told that the matter was being considered and that no decision had been reached. That means that there will be no decision for three months because we will not be here to question the Minister. These retired teachers, the unfortunate Civic Guards, the Dublin Metropolitan Policemen, the ex-National Army men who retired on a small pension some years ago, have no way of adding to their pension to meet the increase in the cost of living imposed by the Budget some months ago.

I wish to refer to a very unfortunate type of person, with a little benefit— if you can call it "benefit"—a few miserable shillings. Take an old man of 65—I hope that he is not old at 65. Nobody wants to give him employment. Take an elderly woman of 65 who is given a few miserable shillings from the poor law board. She may have a widow's contributory or non-contributory pension and is getting a few shillings for the payment of her rent, but the board of assistance has availed of the opportunity of the means test to reduce her allowance. The Minister in a reply, however, very kindly stated that he did not issue a circular to any local authorities urging them to reduce the tuberculosis allowance. I was glad to hear him say that because I am informed that he did issue a circular and that they were acting on that circular. Some confusion arises.

It was Deputy Norton, when he was Minister for Social Welfare, who issued the circular.

Mr. Byrne

I am talking about a later circular of the last week or two. I accepted the Minister's statement that he did not issue the new circular which reduced the tuberculosis allowances under the Act which, I think, the Minister himself had something to do with. I remember the occasion four or five years ago when he was asked for consent by the corporation for the tuberculosis scheme, and he sanctioned it. I am not quite sure that it was the present Minister——

It was Dr. Ward, in fact, who was responsible.

Mr. Byrne

If the Minister says that he did not issue the circular reducing the tuberculosis allowance and that no circular was issued to local authorities and public health authorities directing them because of the means test to reduce people in respect of outdoor assistance, I hope that he will make more inquiries and see that the outdoor assistance is restored, and that the tuberculosis allowance together with the small increase given by the National Health Board will be paid. I hope that one will not be put against the other for the purpose of reducing the allowance.

At the present moment there is a set-back in the building industry. I do not know what the reason is. It is not that the materials are tied up and we have got the workers home from England with a guarantee of 20 years' work. They came home but for some unknown reason there appears to be a decline—not very much—in the building industry which has increased unemployment. These men may wait for a week or two, a month or two or maybe three, to see if they can get employment in their own country but if they go away again you will not get them back in a hurry when you want them to build.

There is a matter in which the Minister for Industry and Commerce should take a special interest. We read in the newspapers during the last five or six months that our shipping company is to build or buy certain ships. I would ask the Minister to see that those ships are built at home. If our shipyards, through lack of graving docks, are not capable of going ahead with more than one or two at a time the Minister might seek expert advice to see if it would be possible to build, in Dublin, dockyards equal to those in various parts of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so that we might build up a big shipbuilding industry. We have splendid repair shops throughout the country. I do not know if any of them are slack at the present time because the size of the ships puts them beyond the capabilities of the various shipyards.

We will accommodate the biggest Irish shipping in Rushbrooke.

Mr. Byrne

I think the Deputy is drawing me.

I am not drawing you.

Mr. Byrne

How these men fall for it. It is just like to-day when I asked the Minister to give me the number of evictions which took place, and he said that 2,000 decrees were obtained by the Dublin Corporation. That is exactly what I wanted the Minister to say so that I could raise it in Dublin Corporation, draw attention to it, and see that they did not continue it. Now the Deputy has drawn attention to the shipyard at Rushbrooke, and said that it was capable of doing the work. Two ships, however, were advertised for tender within the last month, and Rushbrooke did not get them. Rushbrooke did not tender. Rushbrooke is capable of doing good and valuable repairs, but I was on the board and they did not tender for either of the ships. One was to cost £270,000. I am glad that the Lord Mayor of Cork has given me an opportunity of drawing attention to the matter. I hope that he will get busy and ask the people in Rushbrooke to develop their yards, to bring in more men and tender for ships for which advertisements appear in the newspapers. Thanks Mr. Lord Mayor for giving me the opportunity, because I am very keenly interested in shipbuilding. It may sound peculiar, but I have been an honorary member of the Boilermakers' and Shipbuilders' Trade Union for many years. I am glad that Deputy McGrath is taking an interest, and will see that Rushbrooke will employ more men and build more ships. I would be delighted to go down and join him, if he would give me the invitation, for the opening of the new shipyard, when we will build the ships required in Ireland.

In conclusion, I would again ask the Minister to do something quickly for the unemployed of this city. Other members of the Dáil representing the farming community can put forward their own case. Dublin, on this glorious day full of sunshine, is looking well. When you go down O'Connell Street to the Gresham Hotel and look back to Nelson Pillar, you are glad that Dublin is looking so well; but when you take the first turn to the right and look around you, you ask immediately: "Where is the much boasted prosperity?"

I doubt if it is possible to make head or tail of this debate. Every Deputy who spoke on the Estimates would seem to have seized this opportunity to serve up his speeches as a sort of hotch-potch reheated for the last day of the session. I should, perhaps, make some exceptions to that rather comprehensive statement. Deputy Costello was commendably brief and raised a matter to which I have given a great deal of consideration and which has given me a great deal of worry. I share the views he expressed as to the services which the pensioners to whom he referred have given to this nation, particularly in the days which followed 1922 when we were endeavouring to set up our own administration and our own Departments of State. Unfortunately, however, we cannot consider their claims without having full regard to all the financial repercussions which the granting of them would undoubtedly have. There are many other persons who retired on pension prior to last year who could, at least in their own minds, make as strong a case for reconsideration of their position as those for whom Deputy Costello spoke. Deputy Cogan referred, for instance, to the Gardaí who resigned prior to the introduction of the new scales in 1951. There are national teachers who retired prior to December 31st, 1950, and there are many other classes of pensioner who would put themselves on all fours, in their own minds at least, with those for whom Deputy Costello spoke.

Though it would cost a comparatively small sum—an almost insignificant sum, having regard to the size of the State Budget—to grant their claims, nevertheless once they were granted we would have to consider all these other classes. The amount involved then would not be £10,000 or £11,000, but I can say almost for certain that it would run into more than £1,000,000. When we talk of increasing a pension we must not forget that such an increase represents an annual charge on the State for a number of years. If we were to assume an additional obligation in respect of pensions of former public servants, which would run perhaps into a sum considerably in excess of £1,000,000, it means inevitably that we have to find that sum or more out of taxation. It means something more on whiskey, or something more on beer or tobacco, or something more on petrol. That is really what is involved in these demands. That is the only way I can look at this question. We cannot get this money anywhere except out of the taxpayers' pocket. Therefore, we cannot look merely to what one might describe as the human side of the case. We cannot take only the compassionate view of it: we have to take a realistic view. In these matters of public expenditure, the person who is ultimately involved is the taxpayer. I have seen no enthusiasm on the part of those who have advocated expenditure in this House to justify the fiscal measures necessary in order to enable us to incur that expenditure and meet it when it arises. That lack of enthusiasm was particularly manifest in the three last weeks of last month.

I do not know whether it is necessary to deal with Deputy Davin. We have heard him so often here, always so prolix and always so inaccurate, and so careless about the allegations which he makes. For instance, he alleged that I had committed myself to an absurd statement down in Limerick. I stated I had not been guilty of the irresponsible utterance which he ascribed to me, and I asked him to quote my words. Then he calmly told the House—having previously informed us that the Minister for Finance, speaking in Limerick, had said such and such—that he had not heard it, but that a colleague of his had. That is typical of the sort of allegation which we hear day in and day out from Deputy Davin. I wish he would learn a new speech or buy a new record. He might speak more briefly, but certainly more effectively, if he did.

Deputy Lehane referred to the motion which he had on the Order Paper to refer back Vote 1, which is for the President's Establishment. He said he put it down in order to draw attention to the squandermania which, he stated, existed in the minds not only of the Government but of the Opposition. He thought that the best way of drawing public attention to that was to move to refer back that Vote. I should have thought that, if the Deputy wished to impress the House with his zeal for economy, he might have found a better medium for conveying what he had in mind if he had moved to refer back Vote 2—on which in fact he did have something to say—since it is under Vote 2 that the allowances to Deputies and Senators are provided. If we are going to talk about economy on that particular plane, surely it would be better for us to begin the economies here at home?

With regard to the Estimate which the Deputy did wish to move to refer back, I think he is under a misapprehension as to its purpose. Vote 1 deals with the President's Establishment. It amounts to £6,440. That is for what might be described as the Civil Service Establishment, the administrative secretariat which is necessary in order to enable the President to discharge his functions under the Constitution.

As you know, apart altogether from the many demands which are made upon the President's time socially and in respect of public functions of one sort and another, the President has a very onerous and responsible part to play in the making of our laws. The President's Establishment, which exists to assist him in this sphere, in fact might be said to be on all fours with the secretariat of any Department of State. It fulfils in relation to the presidential functions exactly the same purpose as the secretariat of the Department of Finance or the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Industry and Commerce plays in respect to the Ministers who are responsible to Parliament for the administration of those branches of the Executive.

I do not know whether it is necessary to deal with the points which were raised by Deputy MacBride. Deputy MacBride, of course, came in and asked us why was it necessary that the bank rate should be raised. It would be quite futile to try to inculcate any sort of financial understanding in Deputy MacBride. I only want to say that when Deputy MacBride was speaking some Deputy put the question to him: "If you feel that we should have a completely independent currency system in this country such as you have advocated, why did not you, in September, 1949, when the £ was devalued, persuade your colleagues not to follow suit? Why did not you persuade them to maintain the Irish £ at the previous four dollar parity?" Of course, Deputy MacBride did not answer that question, but it would be very interesting if he or some member of the previous Administration would disclose why they took the course they did in regard to sterling.

I assume that Deputy MacBride, when this matter was discussed by the Government in September, 1949, did endeavour to ensure that this link, as we call it, with sterling would be broken and that the Irish £ would be maintained at its previous four dollar parity. Who was it overbore Deputy MacBride on that occasion when this very serious matter was being considered and when he had an excellent opportunity of giving effect to those theories which he propounds so often in the House and elsewhere in the country? Was it, for instance, his colleague who on one occasion in this House said this—I am quoting, Sir, from Volume 76 of the Dáil Debates, columns 1817 and 1818:—

"It is plain to the observant that unless we correct the adverse trade balance and correct it soon we are going to have a crash. All the indications are there. We have never retained any gold in our central banks. But the same barometer is available because our joint stock banks have held external assets and by a process of calculation we can determine the net external assets. They were £72,000,000 in 1934, after American money had gone back to America, in 1935 they were £71,000,000; in 1936, £72,000,000, and remained fairly stable over that period. In 1937, they were £67,000,000 having fallen by £5,000,000, and in 1938 they were £61,000,000, a catastrophic fall."

They fell by £6,000,000 in 1938 as compared with 1937 and it was described by one of Deputy MacBride's latterday colleagues as being a catastrophic fall.

He then went on to say:—

"It must be borne in mind that part of that catastrophic fall was due to the determined policy of the Oireachtas"——

and the determined policy of the Government

"——to settle the difference with England by the transfer of a capital sum of £10,000,000 to Great Britain, and that must be reflected in the external assets of the banks. But they have been steadily dwindling, and they are steadily dwindling, and they show no signs of coming back."

And they are now £252,000,000.

This is the conclusion which Deputy Dillon drew on the 5th July, 1939, from that argument:—

"With the disappearance of every £1,000,000, our problem with regard to the balance of trade becomes more complicated."

I wonder was it Deputy Dillon who succeeded in defeating Deputy MacBride's endeavour in September, 1949, to break, as he calls it, the link with sterling. Was it these arguments of his which prevailed ultimately with Deputy MacBride and, of course, with Deputy Dillon's other colleagues that, if we were to try to maintain this preSeptember parity of the £ to four dollars, we should inevitably have had to dissipate our external assets in endeavouring to support the Irish £ at that false parity and that, as Deputy Dillon said, with the disappearance of every £1,000,000, our problem with regard to the balance of payments becomes more complicated?

I know Deputies opposite in latter days have been trying to have it both ways. Prior to 1938, during all that period of the economic war, they were telling the country that we were heading for bankruptcy because we were keeping our money here at home. We were not shipping it off to Great Britain, we were not paying out £5,000,000 every year under an agreement that had been made by our predecessors. We were keeping that money here and using it for the benefit of the Irish State.

And slaughtering the live stock.

During that period we had all these banshee wails from Deputy Dillon, Deputy McGilligan and all the others, who are now telling us that the one thing that we ought to do is to get rid of these sterling assets. Too far right is left; too far east is west and the thing for us to do, while building up our capital resources here at home and while realising and repatriating these sterling assets, is to make sure that, when we are realising them and are repatriating them, we are putting them into truly remunerative and reproductive projects in Ireland. That is the difference between this Government and its predecessor, that we are behaving with judgment and with prudence and, as a result of the policy which has been adopted, the economic position of this country is already beginning to recover. I do not want to raise any "hellos". I do not want to throw my hat in the air and start shouting "hurrah". There are signs already visible that the economic position of this country is improving.

Who has to be patted on the back?

Who has to be patted on the back? It is the people who have to be patted on the back. They supported us during the last two months and during the whole period of the economic war when we did not have either Deputy MacBride's or Deputy Dillon's support.

At the expense of the unemployed.

It is the people who have to be thanked for the fact that it looks as though we will weather the storm and get back on an even keel. Already, the position in regard to the balance of trade has begun to show a considerable improvement. We have only passed through the first six months, so I do not propose to start prophesying but at least two months of the first half of the present year have been satisfactory.

Some reference has been made to the unemployment position. That, too, has improved. I have here the returns for the 14th June. I will take all that category of industries which are comprised under the heading of food. I find that between the 7th May and the 14th June this year there has been a decrease of 315 in the live register—a decrease of almost 20 per cent. in this particular category. There has been a world-wide slump in the textile industry—a slump which has hit many towns in Great Britain very severely. However, in this country an improvement is beginning to show itself. I find there has been a reduction of 365, or of 10 per cent. in the live register with regard to this industry—a reduction not proportionately so great as in the case of the industries connected with food. In the clothing industry the reduction in the number of unemployed last month as compared with the preceding month was 496. In the skins, leather, rubber and waterproof industries the reduction in the number of unemployed was 99. All the industries on this list, with scarcely an exception, show an improvement in their employment position for mid-June as compared with mid-May.

I have reason to believe that, as the year goes on, the position will improve, because, as Deputy Cogan said, there is a Government in office who can form an opinion as to what should be done in the national interest. Though they knew that the measures they had to take would not be immediately popular, nevertheless, they took them and the people, realising that there was courage and sincerity behind these measures, supported them. I believe they will continue to support the Government during their full term of office.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, received for consideration and passed.

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.

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