Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Leinster House Incident.

Mr. J.A. Costello

A Cheann Comhairle, I very much regret that I have once more to draw your attention to another very deplorable occurrence involving a Senator and an ex-Minister and, consequently, a breach of the privileges of this House and of its members.

At about 7.30 p.m. Deputy Dillon was subjected to an entirely unprovoked assault by Senator Quirke, the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party in the Seanad. Deputy Dillon was walking along the corridor outside the precincts of this Chamber going up the stairs adjacent to the main stairway leading to this Chamber, when he was accosted by Senator Quirke who obstructed his further passage in the direction in which he was intending to go. Deputy Dillon, in his endeavour to move past Senator Quirke, was pressed against the wall of the stairway. Subsequently, Senator Quirke assaulted the Deputy by knocking the cigarette which he was smoking out of his mouth, kept up the abusive stream of language which he had been uttering previously thereto and continued to obstruct Deputy Dillon's further passage. The Captain of the Guard endeavoured to restrain Senator Quirke. Another Senator was present on the occasion and admitted that Deputy Dillon had been assaulted.

It is very deplorable that, within such a short period of time, another incident of this character should have occurred. Senator Quirke was present in this Chamber yesterday, in the Distinguished Strangers' Gallery, when I was directing your attention to the incident connected with the assault by the Minister for Education on Deputy Seán Collins. He must have realised the gravity of the allegation that I put forward for your investigation at that time.

This assault on Deputy Dillon took place after you had announced to the Dáil the result of your investigation and had declared here that the Minister for Education was guilty of contempt of Parliament. The fact that the Leader of the Seanad—a member of the Fianna Fáil Party—was guilty of this conduct within such a short period of time after your judgment had been pronounced upon my allegation here in the Dáil yesterday makes still more serious the conduct of that Senator. I ask you, Sir, to investigate the matter and to report it to the Dáil.

Captain Cowan

On a point of order, on general information, I want to ask you, Sir, to consider, when there is some complaint in regard to the conduct of a member of the Dáil or in relation to a member of the Dáil, whether it is proper that that matter should be brought up by an ex parte statement in the Dáil or whether, in the interests of the House and the nation, it would be proper to have the facts, as they are known, reported to you privately in the first instance. I would submit, on a matter of order, that it is most improper to have this succession of ex parte statements made without our knowing whether or not they are true.

Mr. J.A. Costello

Every one of them is true.

Captain Cowan

I think it is most improper——

Mr. J.A. Costello

Every statement that I made has been proved to be true.

Captain Cowan

I am not concerned as to whether or not they are true. I am concerned whether it is in the best interests of the House and of the country that this particular procedure should be adopted.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot, of course, decline to hear any complaint which a member of the Dáil proposes to make to me in respect of any interference with a member of this House. It may be a matter as to what would be the better form of procedure. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges could possibly discuss what is the best method of bringing the matter to the notice of the authorities in respect of the interference.

The particular instance which has been brought to the notice of the House is somewhat more complex than the other incident which we unfortunately had to investigate for the past few days. Deputy Dillon informed me privately of the incident in practically the same terms as those used by Deputy J.A. Costello. The words may have been different, but the statement was practically the same.

It is the duty of this House to protect the members of this House. If a member of this House is interfered with in the discharge of his duty it is incumbent on the House to see that he has full liberty to discharge the duties put upon him. As the Chairman of this House, it is my duty to see that a member of this House is protected to that extent. I will go as far as I can to see that Deputies of this House are protected to that extent.

This case is rendered complex by reason of the fact that a member of the other House is concerned and, of course, I have no means of dealing with that situation. It may be a subject upon which this House may choose liaison of some kind with the Seanad to investigate the matter conjointly.

Since this matter was reported to me, I have endeavoured to make as much investigation as I could. Obviously I could not have had sufficient information to reach any decision at the present time. It would seem a cliché to say that it is regrettable but it is and more regrettable now inasmuch as the Second House of the Oireachtas is involved.

The Taoiseach

I do not know whether I should say anything at this stage in connection with this matter. I can only say, as I have already indicated to-day, that as far back as March 11th, 1947, being satisfied that we were starting on a course which would lead to incidents of the kind we have been investigating if not, perhaps, to something worse, I put down a motion, carefully designed, to try and make provision for the protection of members of this House as a whole against action outside and to protect them in the House and so on.

I was informed at an early stage, when coming into office in 1932, that there had been an attempt to do this earlier but that nothing had been done about it. After very careful consideration and preparation, I put down a motion which, had it been passed by the House and which had it been considered and received the co-operation which I had hoped it would get would have provided for procedure by which any incidents of this kind could be properly dealt with. By setting down the procedure and the privileges I believe we would have made incidents like this practically impossible.

Since I heard of this other incident, I have ventured to put down for circulation a notice of motion to be considered apart from or together with any of these incidents the moment the Dáil meets again. I think that is the only proper way to do it, to make the law envisage what might occur and not to make the law ad hoc for particular cases which, I think, is not the best way of doing it. We ought to make the law as we make any other law, to cover the set of circumstances which we envisage might occur.

I want to associate myself with the expressions of regret that things like this should happen. I do hope that we will see the end of them in this House, and that fairly quickly.