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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £13,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

In accordance with arrangements made between the Whips the main Wireless Broadcasting Estimate, together with some other Estimates, was agreed to without debate before the recess on the understanding that a token vote would be taken at the opening of the new Session. In virtue of that agreement I am bringing this Supplementary Estimate before the House to enable Deputies to debate the broadcasting service generally but I have also taken the opportunity of making provision for expenditure not anticipated when the main Estimate was framed. I have in addition drawn attention in the Estimate to the proposal to establish a broadcasting council in order to seek the approval of the House for it.

I am sure the House will not wish me at this stage to go over the individual sub-heads of the main Estimate to explain the variations. The figures have been in the hands of Deputies for some months. I shall at the same time be glad to give Deputies any information that may be required in regard to the various sums asked for in the Vote or in connection with any aspect of Radio Éireann in which the House may be interested.

In addition to the primary purpose of providing an opportunity for Deputies to discuss broadcasting generally I shall now explain the need for the sum over and above the token provision which would ordinarily have been sufficient for the purpose of a debate. The gross sum required in the Estimate is £20,000, but extra Appropriations-in-Aid are expected to be available from sponsored programmes to the extent of £7,000 thus reducing the net sum required to £13,000.

The main reason for the £20,000 gross extra sum required is the cost of providing a morning programme with two news bulletins. The need for providing for a service of this sort was not of course foreseen in connection with the main Estimate. The morning service began on the 12th July when the newspapers became involved in the printers' strike. Judging from the commendations received from many quarters the early programmes had a widespread appeal. The news contained local items which could not be got from the B.B.C. or any other station and it might be said we had a distinctive programme with which no other broadcasting organisation could compete. When the newspapers were about to reappear strong public pressure made itself felt to continue the morning programme as a permanent arrangement and we have acceded to that demand.

The morning opening will this year cost £11,000 of the £20,000 required in the Supplementary Estimate and it will cost £15,000 in a full year. The balance of the £9,000 required is needed mainly for the payment of extra performing right fees and extra fees to advertising agents. Performing right fees are based on licence numbers and when we increased the licences by 35,000 in a special drive this year that involved an automatic increase in the performing right and other copyright fees. In the same way more sponsored programmes mean extra commission to the advertising agents and this is borne on the Vote.

I am glad to say that as against this Supplementary Estimate for £20,000 gross we expect to have receipts from licence and sponsored programmes higher than expected by £21,000. This is due to the "drive" and to better facilities for sponsored programmes.

As I indicated at the beginning I have shown in the Estimate an expenditure of £500 as remuneration for the members of Comhairle Radio Éireann, the establishment of which the Government has approved.

Before describing in detail the re-organisation of Radio Éireann I feel I should very briefly refer to the general progress of Radio Éireann and outline what I hope are reasonable aspirations for the future.

I should refer first to protests received from time to time that listening is not possible because of local electrical interference with reception and that a licence fee should not be expected in such conditions. I have every sympathy for listeners whose enjoyment of broadcast reception is lessened by interference although the number of complaints received is not large in relation to the number of licence holders—about 1,000 per year for 380,000 licensees. Obviously the Department cannot waive the licence fee because some interference is experienced. The Department is bound to insist on the fulfilment of the legal obligation to pay the fee on wireless telegraphy apparatus irrespective of listening conditions, and further, I think Deputies will appreciate that it would be quite impossible to administer the licensing regulations if waiver of payment were allowed for interference or for a set being out of order.

In connection with this question of interference listeners should appreciate that the sources of such interference are innumerable—every faulty light switch in the country is a potential source of interference. Quite obviously therefore some interference will exist at times in most places. We are doing everything possible to keep the trouble down.

As I mentioned earlier we have made provision to put a further van on the road for this work. We have demonstarted the effectiveness of fitting suppressors to electrical apparatus at the recent exhibition by the wireless trade in Dublin and we had some illustrated radio talks about interference at the same time.

I would appeal to listeners who experience interference, however, to ensure that their set is not at fault and that they have a satisfactory earth and aerial before they make a complaint. Twentythree per cent. of all complaints are due to faulty wireless sets. Listeners could also do a great deal by local co-operation in having electrical sources of interference suppressed. The Department's technicians have generally to travel long distances to trace down sources of interference, and fit suppressors where desired. A great deal of this work could be done without expense and delay by listeners themselves in co-operation with the local wireless trader and with the owners of electrical plant. In fact, our inspectors are now organising local area drives to this end.

The House will be glad to know that extra studio accommodation in the General Post Office planned in 1947 is now ready. This will give some relief from the congested and otherwise very unsatisfactory conditions that now exist. The provision of these studios is the utmost in the way of studio accommodation that can be obtained in the General Post Office but, of course, really satisfactory broadcasting accommodation cannot be provided in a building designed for a totally different purpose from broadcasting. There will still be a serious lack of office accommodation and it will be most difficult to get such offices in the already overcrowded General Post Office building.

A specially designed broadcasting headquarters such as is provided in practically all the countries of Europe will be the only solution for proper broadcasting accommodation. A recent rearrangement of existing studio space in the General Post Office has given improved facilities for handling sponsored programmes and the station is now accepting advertisers who were on a waiting list.

New up-to-date transmitters have been ordered for the Athlone, Dublin and Cork stations but the cost will not fall into the present year. The Athlone transmitter will be of the same power as the present transmitter i.e., 100 Kw. This is the maximum power permissible under the European broadcasting plan to which this country is a party. The Dublin and Cork transmitters will be each of 5 Kw. power instead of the present power of 2 and 1 Kw. respectively. When the transmitters have been installed—probably towards the end of next summer—reception conditions should be much improved, particularly for those who listen to the present very low power Dublin and Cork stations.

I should mention that the new transmitters will probably help a good deal to get over interference from foreign stations which is being experienced to some extent by all countries throughout Europe. This is, of course, distinct from the local interference to which I referred earlier. Because of the large number of countries in Europe close to one another—as compared with say America or Australia—all of whom need wavelengths for the provision of a national broadcasting service the broadcasting bands in the European area have been congested for a number of years. Matters are now further complicated by the international situation.

We have made arrangements with the City of Cork Vocational Committee for the incorporation of broadcasting studios in a new school of music which the committee is preparing to build in Cork. When this building has been completed the Cork broadcasting artistes will have very much more comfortable conditions than they have in the present rather primitive studio accommodation in the city.

Many improvements and developments have taken place in the programme organisation during the year, such as the extension of the feature "Beginners Please" to Cork, where a large audience took part in the feature with the light orchestra, and more recently to Sligo. It is hoped that a local "Beginners Please" will be held in other centres.

A balance and control officer has been added to the organisation to ensure that the programmes will be broadcast with more fidelity than was possible hitherto. In addition to programmes of traditional music and of songs in the native language we are doing something to popularise songs in English with a national flavour. The "Balladmakers' Saturday Night," a very popular feature, is an example of this.

I shall be referring later to the hours of broadcasting in this country but I should say here that, while the over-all period of broadcasting during the day has remained practically stationary for a long time, the amount of work that went into the preparation of the programmes, even up to recent years, was only a fraction of that which is put into it now. The public may be aware of that in a general way because the Press gives much more attention to broadcasting in special radio columns than it did formerly. The fact that there are such daily radio columns is in itself evidence that the newspapers consider broadcasting worth more attention now than was the case.

As I said, the appreciation of the general public for improved presentations is of a broad nature and it may be no harm for me to give some idea of what work is involved in raising standards. In the first place, although the hours of broadcasting have not been extended, the number of programmes broadcast now in a week as compared with 1939 has been raised by about 50 per cent. (from about 100 a week to approaching 150 a week). These figures include the additional news in the morning. We have had to increase the numbers of programmes by gradual stages.

Broadcasting at present has very much more interest than it had ten years ago for the public and the Press, Departments of State, churches, cultural bodies, voluntary associations, sports bodies and other bodies, and practically every section of the community which has some message to give demands an allocation of broadcasting time as a right. With technical developments we are also in a better position to get outstanding programmes from abroad.

To increase the number of programmes and to give space to meet the more extensive demands being made on broadcasting the station has to resort to expert "packing".

Many of the fairly long types of solo item of former years which required comparatively little rehearsal and preparation have been severely cut down. At the same time the music department of the station which provided ten items per week in 1939 now provides 24 items a week. The other sections of the station have increased their contributions in somewhat similar proportions.

In former years the rehearsal of programmes was wholly inadequate and it was not uncommon that programmes were put on the air without a single microphone rehearsal. While space restrictions still make it impossible to have anything like as many rehearsals as would be desired the position has been changed very radically in that respect in recent years. The number of hours rehearsal in 1939 was 538; in 1950 it was 1,457.

Recording of programmes, particularly recording on tape, makes it possible to produce programmes that would have been quite impossible until a few years ago. It facilitates speakers who cannot attend during broadcasting hours and it enables interesting items assembled individually by outside broadcast officers, script writers, descriptive news writers, and sections in the station to be brought together, edited and broadcast as a single programme.

Rehearsals for recordings, and the recordings themselves are, however, more complex than the rehearsals for live programmes and they take a great deal of time to carry out. Recording sessions were practically unknown until a couple of years ago. In 1939 there were only 62 hours of recording sessions while in 1950 there were 4,500 hours.

The examples I have given of the compression of programmes made necessary by the increased demands on broadcasting space and of the more elaborate nature of the individual programmes will give the House a fair idea of the extra volume of work that has to be put into broadcasting generally without increasing the total hours of broadcasting.

To give the arrangement of programmes all the meticulous attention they now need as compared with former years, the station organisation will require some strengthening if planning is to be done less hurriedly, for the better presentation of talks and other features, for more complete technical balancing of the programme as it goes on the air and for other matters connected with programme presentation.

Even with a larger licence fee the financial resources which broadcasting can earn of itself will not be sufficient to procure all the facilities needed and some improvisation must continue to be made if the present rate is maintained. We are at a disadvantage as compared with even very small countries like Denmark which has 1,200,000 licence holders for a population of little over 4,000,000. I consider on the whole that the Radio Éireann programmes are very good allowing for the somewhat inadequate organisation and the inadequate studio space and the very rigid control exercised in regard to innovations.

I have referred immediately above to the gradually increasing responsibility demanded from broadcasting executives over the past ten or 12 years. I should now like to refer to my own short association with broadcasting and my general outlook on it. I wish to make it very clear in the first instance that I have taken a deep, personal and immediate interest in the administration of Radio Éireann, in the formation of the programmes and in all other matters pertaining to the service.

I think it would be well if I were to give my ideas on the function of Radio Éireann in a very general and simple way, in the hope that they will be approved. The ideas are not original. In the main they are a reaffirmation of the traditional policy. They have been indeed adopted by the best broadcasting systems in Europe.

The primary purpose of Radio Éireann is to provide entertainment in an Irish setting to suit every taste to be found in our community; from our own and foreign dance music to classical compositions; from Irish and universal variety shows to debates in Irish and English on Irish and universal themes; from traditional music and songs from the four provinces of Ireland in Irish and English to operas and songs in every language from abroad.

It is my particular object to make the programmes, in so far as they are based on Irish settings, distinctively Irish in character and year by year I hope to increase still further the already considerable volume of material, coming to us in greater quantities, particularly from the Six-County area.

I must now follow with some very obvious generalisations which appear to be forgotten by the many correspondents who write to the newspapers, and to ourselves, complaining of the Radio Éireann programme. Firstly, the taste of our listeners demands a varied programme. If the results of "Listener Research" in Great Britain or, say, Belgium, were to be compared with a similar investigation if made here, the preferences in regard to the content of the programme would be found I believe to be somewhat similar. In order to satisfy everyone a very considerable part of the programme would have to be in relation to universal themes, sometimes in an Irish setting and frequently not so. Without having yet made an accurate study of our listeners' wishes I am perfactly certain that in common with every country in Europe, light music would come very nearly at the top of the list in respect of volume demand. The "Hospitals' Request" programme indicates a preponderating interest in light dance music, a particular interest in certain foreign singers, a very modest interest in Irish songs, with a very slight demand for semi-classical and classical music. It would also be true to say that the taste of people living in the countryside as distinct from the inhabitants of our cities and towns is more conservative and more racy of the soil and there is a continual demand for ballads.

It is well for the House to face the fact that if any particular item is broadcast in excess of what our listeners wish they will instantly transfer to the B.B.C. or to some other system, and because of this, letters from correspondents in the newspapers demanding more of a particular type of programme are utterly useless as they give no clue as to what the actual proportion of the various types of broadcasts should be.

Here I must sound a warning note. There is undoubtedly a demand for our own music, instrumental and vocal, and we do our utmost to satisfy it. Let no one, however, have any illusions. A great number of the young people in this country have adopted light variety, operatic and Anglo-American dance music as their folk music along with our own melodies, in the same way as other European countries, even those whose predominating language is not English.

The universality of the English language increases the force of Anglo-Americanisation taking place all over the world and to offset this we shall have to make a far greater and more prolonged effort in the future to present our own music, drama and literature to our listeners in a way which will engender their abiding love and admiration.

As in the case of all good broadcasting institutions abroad the Radio Éireann programme is weighted to provide palatable, cultural entertainment with an emphasis on our own creative and traditional culture and possibly of a somewhat higher standard than we would expect to be asked for by "popular" demand. As I said before, I know that light music would head the list here as in other places in the collated results of any listener research investigation.

The Radio Éireann programmes do contain quite an amount of light music and other items of the lighter type.

The programme also includes a proportion of more highbrow items not really justified in a single programme but inevitable if we are to pursue the right policy. We cannot give way too much to what I might term demands by the more vocal section of the community in the setting of standards.

As a nation which claims cultural traditions, we should cater for the smaller but less vocal section whose tastes do not lean to mass-produced foreign entertainment and, of course, we must play our part in the work of helping to restore the national language.

I feel that any dissatisfaction that may exist in regard to the proportions of the programmes devoted to serious and popular items lies to a great extent in the fact that all of them have to be sent out in one general programme. If listeners had running concurrently two home programmes from which to select the items of their choice—light or serious, as the case may be—there would, I think, be less criticism that Radio Éireann is high-brow or lowbrow. I shall be referring later in my statement to the question of a second programme.

I mentioned, incidentally, a few moments ago the question of ascertaining listeners' tastes by modern methods. Listener research is, to my mind, vital as a check on programme planning and as a means of keeping programme heads at the top of their form, and I intend to inaugurate this valuable service.

The object of any good radio service should be to intermingle light programmes with more serious items requiring a greater degree of concentration in such a manner that at least a good proportion of listeners will leave the radio on before the lighter item commences and after it terminates and can, we hope, be induced to enjoy a varied programme. The quality of the more serious items must be of the very highest to achieve this result.

In all I have been saying it will be obvious to Deputies that the ordinary school programmes could not possibly provide stimulating ideas and information on matters of vital importance, such as knowledge of how the Government works, knowledge of legislation, knowledge of the day-to-day economic problems of the country; nor can they learn very much of the recent history of Ireland nor of the national revolution.

The knowledge which they glean of Irish music and song must be supplemented by Radio Éireann. Radio Éireann has already played a vital part in this work.

It is, of course, important to state that while Radio Éireann as a provider of entertainment must to some degree supplant other forms of entertainment this is not our ideal. Apart from offering light entertainment in reasonable measures our purpose should be to encourage young people to read good books, to go to concerts, to engage in animated fireside discussion and to organise more debates and to sing a greater variety of Irish and other good songs. There is so much mass-produced entertainment these days that for Radio Éireann to encourage a kind of dullness of mind would be appalling.

Probably the most noteworthy innovation during the year which will help to lead our people to think critically on matters of public importance— cultural, social and political—was the introduction of unscripted discussions on controversial subjects including discussions on matters of current political interest.

Many people had expressed the fear from time to time that as a nation we were too immature politically to permit free broadcasting discussions on current matters on which there were considerable and perhaps violent differences of opinion.

I did not hold that view and I am glad to say that experience has proved that I was right. I authorised the broadcasting service to permit people with different opinions, political and otherwise, to express their views freely on a wide range of controversial subjects—the only limitations being, broadly, the observance of the decencies of debate and the avoidance of libellous statements. The discussions are fulfilling all that I had in mind from them. Many debates have been held in which persons prominent in the life of our nation have expressed their opinions frankly but without rancour or heat.

In the development of our debates we have a feature of great importance for the future of the country. The world has become immensely complex. In the political life the following of political trends has become much more difficult. It is absolutely essential to help young people to become mature in mind so that they may question carefully all the obvious panaceas to bring about human perfection and at the same time understand the part now played by State institutions. They need to have faith in their country by far more knowledge of our economic potentialities, our art, music and drama.

Broadcasting can do much to make us all interested in the now immensely complex galaxy we call Ireland.

The freedom of speech now allowed in broadcasting debates has been of very great advantage to us. I should mention incidentally that from my researches abroad I have found that debaters require much rehearsal and a training in the habit of radio debate, which is different from any other kind of discussion. I found also that even in England with its huge population that a trained first-class chairman of debate is a rare bird. Much advantage is gained abroad by beginning debates for less experienced people on the nursery slopes at times of the day when there are very few listeners.

In addition to the debates I arranged for a weekly commentary on the proceedings of the Oireachtas. Since the feature started there has hardly been a single complaint that the summary did not give a balanced account of parliamentary proceedings of the week. In fact, the feature has been widely commended.

Next, I should draw the attention of the House to the development of music in this country. I should like to make special mention of a scheme which I introduced this year for the purpose of making it somewhat easier for local musical societies to undertake the organisation of concerts by the two orchestras. I invited business firms throughout the country to sponsor concerts by either the symphony or light orchestra. The response of the business organisations has been splendid. A number of sponsored concerts have already been held and others will be held. The business firms get some advertisement from their association with these concerts but I prefer to think that their primary object is to help in the diffusion of good music. These concerts have immense possibilities for the creation of a live interest in music among our people. They give confidence to the many musical societies which I am glad to say are springing up in many parts of the country and are an inspiration to small orchestral combinations like those conducted in the secondary schools.

I need scarcely tell the House that every broadcasting organisation requires the services of a symphony orchestra—as well as of other orchestras. I am glad to say that our symphony orchestra is not alone filling its broadcasting function of playing in the studios and providing recordings and relays from outside concerts, but it is giving the country an opportunity of hearing personal performances of classical and semi-classical music which our people never had before. The light orchestra also progresses.

The number of musical societies grows apace all over the country and the number willing to undertake the sponsoring of concerts by the Radio Éireann Orchestras is also growing. I have visited concerts held in various provincial towns as in Dublin and I have noticed that the audience consisted of people of all ages and grades in society.

The Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra is gradually becoming the national orchestra of Ireland, playing in public, filling large theatres, such as the Theatre Royal, and playing with soloists of international repute.

I am determined to build up this orchestra until it achieves a European reputation. For this the minimum initial standard to which young Irish musicians must aspire must be secured by the services of short-term contract players from abroad who will be as welcome here as they are in other small countries.

When the orchestra is thus established, it should be possible to find a permanent conductor who believes he can, in the course of a few years, make the reputation of the orchestra and his own by hard work. In due time, let us hope, we will have an orchestra manned by at least 90 per cent. Irish players.

Indeed, every country in Europe, from the smallest to the largest, has one or more brilliant symphony orchestras—some of them are internationally famous and go on tour. Most of them have resident internationally educated and famous conductors. A very considerable number of these orchestras consists of non-nationals to a varying degree up to 50 per cent.

Classical music is international in character, and for its exponents in interpretation and execution there cannot be too rigid confinement to national boundaries. I should say that in countries with much affinity to our own, such as Italy and France, virtually everyone is interested in classical music whether light or serious, and the humblest worker in these countries considers such music as part of his normal entertainment. I fully believe that the same progress towards an appreciation of good music would be evident here in the future. Indeed, love of our own music is inextricably connected with love of good music in general. I know that people interested in good music will need assistance and encouragement from such bodies as the recently formed Arts Council. A tremendous effort will be needed if we are to compete with, at least, the musical establishments and academies of the smallest countries.

I should say that apart from the provincial concerts to which I have referred, I hope to arrange for the symphony orchestra to play popular classical music with soloist performers in a Dublin theatre on Sunday nights next year and I trust the audience will give this, for us, entirely novel programme, a fair hearing. We also intend to continue the children's concerts wherever the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra plays. These concerts have been an immense success.

Concurrently with our efforts to raise orchestral standards and because I have had to invite guest players from abroad I have been giving close attention to another aspect of the problem, that is, the question of the improvement of music teaching facilities which will enable young Irishmen to take their places in our orchestras. I know that there is vital need for the establishment of more master classes under teachers of distinction to give our students the opportunity of reaching concert standard at home.

There have been developments in this connection and I am glad to know that the Royal Irish Academy of Music, which has received a moderate increase in its grant, has already appointed over seven new instructors for the various classes of instrument. It is also offering some 14 scholarships, mainly for wind instruments, to those who wish to avail of the instruction from these teachers and are capable of doing so.

The professors for these special classes are our guest players in the Radio Éireann Orchestra. I have every confidence that improved organisation and facilities for teaching will bear good fruit and place us eventually on a level with the conservatories of other countries.

In the meantime, until we can turn out pupils in numbers up to the level of those in first-class orchestras we shall on every occasion on which new players are required for the Radio Éireann Orchestra, give auditions to any individual instrumentalists at home with a view to securing their places in it. They will always be heard by an impartial board, including members who have a natural desire to give a chance to native talent.

It would be just as well to be frank, however, and say that even in relation to our small population of 3,000,000 a great deal more needs to be done in the development of the highest class of teaching both in regard to voices and instruments. I fully hope and believe that the Arts Council will have this matter actively in mind.

Before I leave the question of music, I should say that Irish music should be played in this country and, indeed, outside it to a far greater extent than it is. The extent of our orchestral arrangements is, however, woefully inadequate.

I commend this work of arrangement for instruments varying in kind and number and for voices to those who have the ability and interest to take part in it. Given proper arrangement there are many beautiful Irish airs which should be played as often throughout Europe as The Blue Danube, Rhapsody in Blue, Old Man River and so on.

Even in our countryside the variety of songs sung at local concerts is very limited. Not one-twentieth of the airs available have been arranged to suit the multifarious tastes of all communities.

I think at this point that I should appeal to all those thousands of people in this country who gain a livelihood from the expanded tourist industry. Tourists leave here £25,000,000 in a normal post-war year. A great deal of this trade can be kept for this country provided varied entertainment is offered. We have a climate that can be capricious. We have a hospitable and courteous people and some of the most beautiful scenery on earth, but much more is required if we are to continue to bring visitors to our shores. The tourists who come here are of various categories but it is only too obvious from seeing them during the summer period that a very large number of them are the kind of people who appreciate in a reasonable way good music, foreign and Irish, and good plays. They consist of the kind of people of very modest incomes who enjoy holidays where scenery, good talk, sport and some kind of special entertainment are all available.

If in the time to come currency restrictions grow lighter and there should be no war, we will have to make a very great effort to interest them in continuing to come here, and we shall have to provide for their entertainment, both in music and in other spheres.

The international festival idea has been developing all over Europe and in our own country, both as a means of bringing new cultural entertainment to the citizens of a country and of attracting tourists. The Edinburgh Festival, where great orchestras and choirs perform, where Scottish music and dancing are heard and seen at their very best, is an example of note, and there are many others besides.

If we are to bring more people to this country in the periods when there is hotel accommodation, we must have a great forum where spectacular entertainment can be given. For this purpose, we need some building which can be used as assembly rooms, possibly as a theatre and also as a concert hall. It is to be noted that even in the summer months the repertory theatres are packed with foreign visitors and seats have to be secured well in advance.

I am glad to note that the question of constructing a concert hall-cum-assembly rooms-cum-theatre in Dublin is now the subject of active investigation.

On behalf of Radio Éireann, I wish to commend the notable efforts of those who are in touch with the Dublin Corporation in connection with a site for this purpose. I commend also in this connection the activities of the Music Association of Ireland and of the recently formed committee which is working on the concert-hall project. There should be continuous festivals of one kind or another in this country and far greater amenities for international congresses.

The direct interest of Radio Éireann in this matter is, of course, that we should have somewhere for the orchestra to play in public and give us a larger scope for our general musical activities.

Apart from these considerations, may I say again we should have a concert hall here, play good and light music there in order to encourage Irish musicians and players; in order to make it worthwhile for Irish singers to be trained who will come back home and find there are people who are willing to listen to them; in order to procure a proper home for opera; in order to encourage more Irish composition and the arrangement of Irish traditional music in new settings?

While on the subject of music in general I should say that I have had to encourage the director of music to raise by several notches the standard of singing and I have disappointed as a result some of our most faithful contributors. Everything I have done in this connection is in accordance with what is the great need of the nation at the present time and about which there is no, or should be no, Party disagreement, the need to raise standards in every walk of life. In some aspects of national life we have succeeded in achieving standards equal to or superior to those of other countries. In many others, we still have a very long way to go.

In connection with the many demands by societies and individuals for radio time, I suppose many members of the House know that actors, singers and debaters who sound good in parish halls, in Dublin theatres and in drawing-rooms may be absolutely hopeless when broadcasting unless they are trained to broadcast and unless they have the natural quality of voice which is pleasing over the microphone.

Lastly, may I say that our repertory company has been highly praised from many quarters? I hope our listeners will find the quality of production ever improves.

In speaking of the various types of programme offered by Radio Éireann I should advert to the general policy maintained in regard to news and announcements related to State activities in order to present the true picture to the House. Firstly, the Dáil Debates are summarised in the news. Secondly, annual political congresses receive approximately equal time in the news programme. Thirdly, Radio Éireann in common with other broadcasting stations reports the announcements of Ministers made at public functions if these are considered to be of news value. Fourthly, Ministers occasionally deliver short addresses on special recognised occasions such as the Budget announcement or on Easter Day. The frequency of all these is proportional, generally speaking, to the volume of similar reports in the daily and weekly Press taken as a whole. I should add that, since the end of the war emergency period, there has been no change whatever in the principles governing the broadcasting of political news.

Information on State activities, whether made available by official announcements or by Ministers at functions, requires a greater proportion of radio time because the complex character of government requires so much explanation. This is the position under all administrations. Compared with Great Britain and taking all governmental publicity in its widest sense into account, we are more conservative. I have come to agree with my predecessor that to interfere either direct or through the director with the news staff, all of whom have prolonged experience, is most unwise, and that complaints in relation to the four types of news above-mentioned are sporadic and very infrequent. Criticism of the Dáil debate reports is very rare indeed and is generally based on the fact that to explain a Bill takes longer than to criticise it, and on the fact that from time to time Deputies of any one Party may find the debate report unbalanced on a particular occasion.

The news editor must be allowed to choose what is worth while reporting and by long tradition he endeavours to balance a debate on a controversial issue within the ambit of a reasonable period.

Bearing all the above considerations in mind I would express the hope that, without making the news and discussion services the subject of narrow Party comment, Deputies will co-operate in giving serious consideration to the following ideas for future development which will, in fact, give a better balance to political controversy in general.

Radio Eireann, in fact, is one of the few stations in Western Europe that does not transmit stated political broadcasts by political party representatives in proportion to their numbers in between elections and during a general election. Alone in Western Europe members of the Oireachtas do not debate together in threes and fours or with others on controversial topics with a political flavour. So far as concerns an extension of programme where political thought is expressed, I have succeeded only in arranging for freedom of debate by the public in general and in encouraging the director to inaugurate the Saturday Dáil Commentary, which has proved popular. I should like to have an expansion of the service considered by introducing these additional universally accepted types of programme. On the one hand, subject to the ordinary rules governing the prohibition of personal attacks on individuals, the heads of Parties could be free to nominate their speakers for stated and general election political broadcasts.

The Parties will equally have to agree on the proportion of time to be allotted as in other countries where there are broadcasting parliamentary committees of an informal character. The Government itself as in many countries will have to be assured that the contemplated programme can proceed without any reasonable chance of failure through absence of co-operation.

The director on the other hand, as in other countries, while ensuring political balance, would have to be given sole and absolute discretion as to the choice of back-bench Deputies and Senators for inclusion in Radio Éireann studio debates and there will be unavoidable heart-burnings. Broadcasting is an art and there would be Deputies and Senators who, though excellent on the platform or in the House, have not the gift for microphone controversy.

The Government of the day, whoever it may be, may decide that as long as the evening programme remains at five and a half hours nightly any extension would result in too much time being given to political controversy although the extension could be limited. Caution will be wiser than rash innovation.

I hope that Deputies will appreciate the difficulties.

Summarising all this, everyone in Radio Éireann from the Minister to the scriptwriter, from the director to the youngest engineer, should and I believe does desire to fire the imagination of our listeners, to stimulate their interest in the manifold tapestry of music, literature, folklore, history, art, drama, sociology and political thought which means Ireland.

When Deputies are considering the overall plan submitted for their approval, I would remind them that the development of broadcasting must be part of a long-term policy— improvements must come slowly and continuity in general policy is essential if Radio Éireann is to play an absolutely vital part in the renascence of this nation.

I now come to our proposals for reorganisation.

Since 1926 our broadcasting service has been controlled and operated as a Civil Service sub-department under the Post Office. In the same way as other State Departments, financial control has been exercised in some detail by the Minister for Finance and by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and its authorities and accountancy system followed the general fairly rigid pattern of the Civil Service.

This system was not suited to a mass entertainment and educational service which had to work by the clock for 364 days of the year. Radio Éireann shuts down only on Good Friday. The difficulties of operating such an organisation on ordinary State Department lines was recognised very early and Ministers for Finance have from time to time delegated financial authority to the Post Office for broadcasting purposes to a greater extent than in other Departments. These delegations have helped to solve some of the problems that beset broadcasting in the earlier years.

The Minister for Finance and the Government have now recognised that far greater financial flexibility is needed to enable broadcasting to run smoothly and to give the public and the State the very varied service which is now expected from it.

Radio Éireann must function with the speed and the vigour of a newspaper.

Apart from an easing of the financial rigidity of the State system, the radio requires scope to give broadcasters wide latitude to express their views. Direct identity with a State Department tends to hamper such freedom because the Department fears that the broadcasters' views may be taken as its own.

With these objects in view, the Government has now approved a fundamental change in the broadcasting organisation. As Deputies know, under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has the statutory responsibility for the operation of the broadcasting service.

Two alternatives presented themselves immediately. Broadcasting could be the function of an independent corporation controlled by the issuing of a licence at regular intervals by the Government, a number of powers being reserved such as licence fee, international regulations, policy in regard to programmes in Irish, etc.

This appeared to the Government to be too extreme a measure in a small country such as our own and it was decided that a measure of limited delegation would best serve our purpose for the present.

We can, however, without a change in the legal position of broadcasting, bring arrangements into force which will give many of the advantages of a board or corporation type of organisation and will afford valuable experience as to the flexibility such a body would bring to broadcasting. The results of this already far-reaching change will be a guide if in future a more fundamental legal alteration is still contemplated.

The Government has now approved the setting up of an intermediate type of organisation. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will remain in legal control of broadcasting and will continue to be legally responsible to the Oireachtas and to the public for its activities.

It is proposed, however, to appoint a comhairle of five persons who will advise and assist the Minister in the conduct of broadcasting and will be responsible under him for the general control and supervision of the service.

The members of the comhairle will be brought into the public service under Section 10 (2) of the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1924, and broadly speaking they will take the place of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in assisting the Minister in the framing of policy and carrying on the administration of broadcasting.

The members of the comhairle will give part-time services to broadcasting and there will be part-time remuneration at the rate of £500 per annum for the chairman and £300 per annum for each of the other four members. The period of office of the first council will be two years from 1st January next.

The names of the first council are as follows:—

Charles Brennan, Managing Director Brennan Insurances Limited; General Manager Irish Public Bodies Mutual Insurances, Limited; Director Insurance Corporation of Ireland Limited.

Patrick Lynch, Lecturer in Economics, University College, Dublin, and previously Assistant Secretary to the Government and Department of the Taoiseach.

Padraig Mac Con Midhe, Principal Teacher, St. Patrick's Primary School, Holywood, County Down. Mr. Mac Con Midhe is also Lecturer in Irish in St. Mary's College, Belfast; President, St. Brigid's Summer School of Irish, Rannafast; Secretary, Comhaltas Uladh and member of An Coiste Gnótha, Gaelic League. He is a trustee and an ex-president of the Gaelic Athletic Association and he was for long a member of the Broadcasting Advisory Committee.

Seán Ó suilleabháin, Archivist Irish Folklore Commission. Mr. Ó Suilleabháin is the author of standard works on folklore. He has lectured for, and is a member of, a number of learned bodies and has represented this country at cultural congresses in many countries in Europe as well as in the United States.

Theodore William Moody, Fellow of Trinity College, Dublin, and Professor of Modern History in Dublin University. He is a member of the Irish Manuscripts Commission; a member of the Cultural Relations Committee of Ireland; a member of the Royal Irish Academy and a Fellow of Royal Historical Society. He is joint editor of Irish Historical Studies.

Deputies will appreciate that I have taken note of the fact that successive Governments have tended to ask for the invaluable services of a number of worthy people who can be found on many boards and committees. Because of the special character of the broadcasting service, I have done my best to secure the services of men either young or fairly young, all with some experience of administration or with other first-class qualifications who will be not too burdened by the responsibility of holding other directorships. The period of office, as I have said, is for two years and as the new organisation will be in its initial stage of development no member of the comhairle will object if I say that should there be changes at the end of the first period of office this will be due to the necessity for bringing fresh points of view to the aid of the Minister in the direction of a service in which novelty is a constant need; it will not reflect on any member's competence. As I have said the direction of broadcasting is a vocation and I have used my intuition more than anything else in believing these men to have the administrative gift of providing good management and of co-operating with the director.

I wish also to announce that I am about to promote Mr. Charles Kelly, the present Director of Broadcasting, to the position of Director of Savings in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In his new post, Mr. Kelly will be responsible, under the accountant of the Department, for the direction of the Post Office Savings Bank and for the further stimulation of savings by publicity and other means through the medium of the bank and Savings Certificates. The Post Office Savings Bank, which has £56,000,000 to the credit of holders, now form one of the largest banking institutions in the country, and it is essential to have this important post of Director of Savings to strengthen the direction of the bank and certificate service and to enable its facilities to be kept constantly before the public. Mr. Kelly's promotion will take effect as from 1st January. I wish here to thank Mr. Kelly for the services he has rendered to broadcasting as director for four years and previously in other capacities in the station. During Mr. Kelly's period of office there have been many broadcasting developments in the way of recorded programmes, the recruitment of staff, actors, producers and scriptwriters, the development of provincial and studio concerts by the orchestras, and so on. These matters impose a great strain on a director—in fact, the position is recognised to be one of the most difficult in the State service. It is, therefore, a position in which change after an interval of some years could be looked forward to as a normal occurrence. I wish Mr. Kelly every success in his new post.

The direction of broadcasting is, as I have said, a vocation akin to that of an editor or theatrical producer. The Director of Radio Éireann which, in a small organisation like ours, corresponds with the head of a programme service in a larger organisation, should be a professional appointment and have no relation to any other consideration. A director may be able to write programmes within a limited field but his principal quality will be that of the man who can find talent, inspire others to formulate programmes and have the genius to produce an overall programme enjoyable to people of various tastes. A day's programme, as I have said, is something like a newspaper edition but far more difficult to produce.

I am glad to inform the House that, for at least a period of transition from the old to the new broadcasting organisation, we shall secure the services of such a person as director in Mr. Maurice Gorham who will give the Minister and the comhairle the benefit of his wide and varied knowledge and control of broadcasting in Britain and America.

Mr. Gorham comes of well-known Connemara families on both sides. His father was dispensary doctor in Letter-frack. Maurice Gorham, after his education at Stoneyhurst and Oxford and a period in literary and political journalism, joined the B.B.C. in 1926. Among the important and responsible positions he held there were editor of the Radio Times for eight years and Head of Broadcasts to North America, and of Services programme. He initiated the B.B.C. Light Programme and reopened the B.B.C. Television Service in 1946 after the war. Mr. Gorham resigned from the B.B.C. in 1947.

He has written well-known books on broadcasting and television as well as various newspaper and magazine articles and numerous scripts for the B.B.C. While our resources are very small as compared with the B.B.C., and Mr. Gorham knows that to be the position, I am satisfied that his wide knowledge of broadcasting and the ingenuity he must have acquired in solving the problems and difficulties that daily confront programme planners in the large independent broadcasting organisation with which he has been associated will be of immense help to us here in making the most of the resources and talent available in the period of change. Mr. Gorham has agreed to come as temporary director on 1st January next. Perhaps I should say that Mr. Gorham is fully cognisant of Irish conditions.

Mr. Gorham will have as his immediate superiors the comhairle whose names I have already made known, all of whom are steeped in Irish tradition and I am convinced that he will be able to improve the programme along the lines I have indicated and which are so vital to the preservation of our national distinctions.

I explained earlier that there was some want of flexibility on the financial side in trying to operate broadcasting on the lines of the normal Government accountancy system with detailed finance authorities. I am glad to say that the Minister for Finance and the Government have agreed to simplify the broadcasting financial procedure. An annual grant will be made for broadcasting equal to the total of the receipts from licence fees and sponsored programme fees and very wide financial delegations will be given by the Minister for Finance to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

In addition to the annual grant the cost of expensive equipment and buildings to such extent as may be agreed upon by the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will be provided by subsidy.

No charge will be made against broadcasting in respect of the various services which are at present provided free to broadcasting by the Post Office and other Government Departments.

I should explain that these revised financial arrangements will not add any substantial sum to the amount available for broadcasting, as the various items, such as buildings, equipment and the services rendered by other Government Departments, are at present provided for broadcasting free, by a year to year undefined agreement.

The new arrangements, however, enable the broadcasting authorities to know in advance by an accepted formula the amount of money that will be available in a particular year and they can plan more definitely ahead. The new arrangements will also permit of more freedom to spend whatever annual sum is provided in the annual vote. The money can be used in the most advantageous way and with the necessary expedition without having to watch whether a particular item is covered by a particular authority in a particular form. Consideration is also being given to the question of simplifying the Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting as presented to the Dáil each year with the object of bringing it a little more in line with the type of financial statements provided by semi-State broadcasting organisations. The result will be freedom for instant innovation, freedom to devote funds for new types of service and adequate flexibility in staffing matters.

I have said that the Minister will still be responsible legally for the operation of the broadcasting service, and, of course, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, he will have to continue to exercise direct control over such matters as wavelengths and international radio regulations. The Minister and the Government will be actively interested in such matters as the help to be given by broadcasting to the language movement, the scope of advertising programmes, and the principles governing religious broadcasting. Beyond these matters and the laying down of general policy about maintaining a fair balance in political views and policy matters of that sort, it is my intention to give every latitude to the comhairle and the director in the running of the broadcasting service. Indeed, I shall expect them also to help me by their advice in large matters of policy.

There are one or two matters which I propose to ask the comhairle and director to examine as soon as they conveniently can. One is the question of an extension of the hours of service. I feel personally that this should be by way of providing a second programme.

I know we cannot have a full second service on the lines of the B.B.C. Light or Third Programme, but I think that we could have a modest separate transmission from the Dublin and Cork stations perhaps for a short period at week-ends in the beginning.

The second programme should commence about the time the new transmitters are installed in 1953. The comhairle will be able to give me some proposals, I hope, at an early stage as to the type of extension of service that would be suitable and feasible.

As a result of visits to many broadcasting stations abroad, I am convinced that our broadcasting organisation at home needs a considerable overhaul. Technically and artistically, the production of programmes is now a much more complex business than it was even a few short years ago, and it is essential that modern broadcasting organisations should keep abreast of the latest developments, whether in equipment or production technique, to enable them to give that polish to their programmes which makes the difference between merely good and excellent programmes.

Another matter which I am sure the comhairle will examine is that of a broadcasting headquarters. Some extra studios have been practically completed in the General Post Office and the final touches are awaiting the supply of some special furniture through the Office of Public Works. These studios are the limit of the accommodation that can be obtained in the General Post Office. I know that there will be many practical difficulties of magnitude—financial, technical, etc. —in the provision of a headquarters for broadcasting which will prevent its realisation for a very considerable time. The preliminary steps in the matter could, however, be undertaken and I hope that this can be done.

We are the only country in Europe without a fine radio station and if we are to aim at the minimum requirements for a small country, two five-hour programmes on every day, we must build as soon as possible. The building, moreover, should be capable of partial conversion to television later on. The finance for such a building depends, of course, on the capital being available and is a matter of high Government policy. Deputies may take it that Radio Éireann can never play the full part envisaged for it by successive Governments until we have constructed this building. As an incentive to higher standards in every walk of life and in every vocation, the expenditure would, I believe, prove to be of enduring value.

I must refer finally to the wireless licence fee. There was only one small increase in 1940 in the original licence fee of 10/-, that is, to 12/6. A fee of 12/6 a year or 3d. a week is fantastically small when compared with the cost of any other form of entertainment. For that fee, a listener has a choice of numerous performances all over Europe and outside by world famous orchestras, of classical plays or of any other entertainment desired. Such performances could not be heard regularly in a theatre at any fee because of the huge expense. The fee of 12/6 a year, which incidentally is the lowest in Europe, is also entirely out of proportion to present costs. The amount of expenditure from the Wireless Broadcasting Vote for 1939-40—the year before the increase was made from 10/- to 12/6— was approximately £67,000. The expenditure for 1950-51, the latest year for which appropriation accounts are available, was £220,000.

As will be seen from the main Estimate this year, the expenditure is still going up considerably, due to a great extent to increases in salaries and fees. The sum in the Broadcasting Vote does not cover the cost of the services given to broadcasting by other Departments or the cost of buildings and expensive equipment. As I have said, the Government has agreed to provide these services by subsidy.

Licence holders would not at the same time expect the subsidy to extend to the ordinary expenditure from the Broadcasting Vote to provide the daily programmes. If the service is to be extended for a beginning in the manner I have indicated, by a short second programme, the present licence fee will not cover the cost.

The fee must, therefore, be increased. I have not yet decided what the increase should be or the date on which it should begin. I wish to assure the House and licence holders, however, that the higher fee is for the purpose of meeting the cost of improvements in the programmes by way of longer hours or better finished programmes.

Considering that the broadcasting service will still be subsidised heavily for buildings and other matters, I am certain nobody will object to making some extra contribution for the purpose of meeting the cost of actual programme preparation and presentation.

I should mention here that, so far as ultimate programme expansion is concerned, we shall be limited severely by the ultimate potential number of licence holders. The number of households in the country is, as I understand, about 650,000, and the ultimate number of wireless licences will be less than that number. This will certainly limit the degree to which a small country like ours can produce expensive programmes over a long stretch each day.

We shall at the same time continue to do our best to give programmes of as high a standard as the resources given to us by the licence holders will permit. I can put the problem in another way. We can spend a given number of shillings over the 12/6 on the improvement of the existing service and on a short second programme. Above that given increase, we can spend another given number of shillings in providing a double five-hour programme, but for this we need a radio building.

It only remains for me to thank the broadcasting staff for their loyalty and devotion to duty during the year. I wish also to thank the members of the advisory committee for the continuance of their assistance. I had not, of course, an opportunity of expressing my thanks on the main Estimate.

The Minister's speech was a lengthy one, but the portion with which we are mainly concerned deals with the proposals to establish a comhairle or advisory council which has been described as a new deal for Radio Éireann. I should like to say at the outset that we consider that, when this decision was arrived at, it would have been far better to establish a separate statutory corporation. I noted from the Minister's speech that the Government considered the advisability of such a course, but decided on some intermediate course between the arrangement which at present exists and the establishment of an independent body.

Everybody who has considered this matter at any time, when it was discussed here or when the programmes provided by Radio Éireann were considered, has, I think, inevitably come to the conclusion that the system under which Radio Éireann operates is entirely unsuited to our conception of a radio station. It may be that, in the initial stages, no other course was open and that, when the station was established in 1926, it was the easiest method of providing a radio service for the country; but with the substantial development that has taken place in radio technique and all we associate with radio programmes in the past quarter of a century, it is obvious that the procedure followed by Radio Éireann is quite unsuitable and the system under which it operates inadequate to provide a sufficient radio service for the country.

Civil Service procedure is totally unsuited for a radio service. Civil servants are responsible, through their Ministers, to the Dáil and consequently they are naturally cautions. When criticism is voiced of Civil Service procedure and regulation, too often people are apt to forget that the Civil Service was never established for the type of service that Radio Éireann is expected to give. Similarly criticism is occasionally made that because civil service procedure is followed there is something defective in the service given. Merely that civil servants follow Civil Service procedure should be no grounds for criticism and on occasions it would be quite wrong and improper for civil servants to operate on a basis other than that laid down by tradition and by Civil Service regulations, but to expect a proper radio service administered by a State Department, as Radio Éireann is by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, is to refuse to face up to the very great changes that have taken place in the development of broadcasting. The type of service which listeners not only in this country but elsewhere expect once they pay their licence fee could not be provided by a body established under the direction and control of the Dáil as laid down in the Statute.

With the development the Minister has announced we may expect an improvement in the service. The names of some of the members of the council are familiar to a number of people. I can speak with personal experience of some of them and I think that their inclusion in the comhairle will materially assist the Minister and his Department in providing a better service for Radio Éireann. I think, however, that it would have been far better if the Minister had established an independent body. On that body he could appoint the persons concerned or some of them with others if necessary. He could then under defined statutory limitations and subject to certain financial arrangements provided under the Act allow them to proceed on an independent basis. One of the great criticisms in the existing situation is that the radio service will continue to be the subject of discussion here in the House and from time to time of criticism from political angles. If I understand the Minister's proposals, although the members appointed to the Broadcasting Council will be appointed under the Civil Service (Regulations) Act it will be an advisory council not an executive council charged with responsibility for the administration and direction of the day to day activities and policy of Radio Éireann. This whole question is one that wants consideration.

The Deputy may have misunderstood me because of the translation of the word "comhairle" which I understand refers to advice. In order not to confuse the House I may not have described it properly. This is to be an executive council charged with supervising the activities of Radio Éireann, not merely an advisory council.

I understood that it was to be an advisory council.

Perhaps I did not make that point sufficiently clear.

At any rate it will guide the Minister and his Department. Although the Minister now says that it will have executive functions, the Minister, as he stated in his speech, will still be responsible legally for Radio Éireann. He will be responsible for the Department to the Dáil and consequently Radio Éireann will not have the independence one might expect. If an independent statutory body were set up Radio Éireann would have the same independence as a number of State organisations or bodies. From time to time the criticism is made that there are too many State bodies and too much State interference. Probably in some cases that criticism is justified.

In some cases considerable sums of money may have been spent unwisely. The decision to set up these bodies was, however, taken either by the Government or by the Dáil on the recommendation of some member of the Government, and, consequently, the decision to restrict their activities or limit their powers or functions may be taken at any time by the Dáil if it so wishes. On this occasion we have been presented with some sort of intermediate body. It will advise the Minister and to some extent have executive functions, but whatever these functions may be they will not be carried out independently, because, ultimately, the Minister has legal responsibility. This departure may mean improvements. I hope it will, but it must proceed on the basis of accepted Civil Service procedure and Civil Service regulations, and the Minister must continue to accept his statutory responsibility for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of which Radio Éireann is a part if it is to discharge its normal functions. The Secretary of the Department will be the accounting officer in the same way as the head of any Department is responsible for a subsidiary section of that Department no matter what type of work that section may have to do.

In a discussion on this matter there is, of course, ample scope for discussing different programmes, for expressing personal opinions on the type of programme that should be given from the station, for expressing individual tastes, preferences and views on particular aspects of the programmes. In the main, these matters should be left to the persons appointed for that type of work. On the basis of a canvass made by Radio Éireann public taste should be catered for. I do not think that any individual Deputy has a particular right to speak authoritatively for or against a particular type of programme or to speak of activities which should be considered by Radio Éireann, but there are some matters which have been adverted to by the Minister in the course of his opening speech which require some comment. He suggested that he favoured the development of political broadcasts. I think we would all welcome that. I think that for too long we had adhered to the old procedure whereby political controversy was excluded from Radio Éireann. But, here again, the difficulty arises that I mentioned at the beginning. If a Minister is responsible to the Dáil— no matter what Party he may belong to, or what his own particular views may be—the members of the Dáil who are not in agreement with his views or who may not be members of his Party will be under the impression that the political broadcasts, either by the time or by the slant which is given to them, tend to favour the Minister concerned.

If the control and direction of Radio Éireann were under an independent autonomous body it would be impossible for that criticism to be levelled and certainly it would be weakened in its effect. It is only natural and human for people to consider that the particular Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who may be in office at the time is influenced by Party or personal or political considerations and that those who differ from him do not get the same opportunities for expressing their viewpoints. The system which has been adopted elsewhere may or may not have much to commend it.

I think some of the news services introduced recently of providing an account at the end of the week of the Dáil proceedings were reasonably well-balanced. However, it is impossible to believe that the news bulletins are always as well-balanced as these talks—not because more time may be given to Government pronouncements or to Government views than is given to the Opposition but, in the main, because of the preponderance of time which is given to ministerial announcements. It does not always follow that a speech or a statement made by a Minister is of news value. Some of them may be, and others may not. Similarly, it does not follow that because a number of Deputies make speeches all the speeches are of equal value though each Deputy may think his own particular speech merits inclusion in the news. I think some consideration should be given to editing on a very efficient basis the news services of Dáil proceedings and of Dáil speeches. The type of service which is given in Britain—"In Parliament To-day"—appears to me to conform more to the service which is broadcast from Radio Éireann on Saturday evenings and which, in effect, gives a more accurate representation of views expressed in the Dáil.

I come now to the general question of news bulletins. The ordinary evening news bulletin, with the exception of that portion of the bulletin which is confined to reports on Irish events, is, in the main, a repetition of the B.B.C. and a repetition of what appears in the evening newspapers. It is, of course, true to say that the evening newspapers do not circulate in all parts of the country and that consequently those people who have not the newspaper service available to them probably get some news value out of the news bulletins but, in general, I think the evening news bulletins leave a lot to be desired. In contrast, I should like to say that the morning news bulletins which were introduced during the strike in the printing trade are quite good and provide a useful service. I think the male announcer is first-class and deserves praise for the manner in which he does his work. If an improvement in the news service can be effected it should be carried out as expeditiously as possible.

The Minister adverted to the fact that it is his intention, and that he thinks it is the responsibility of Radio Éireann, to provide programmes of our own music, drama and literature. I think everybody will agree with that outlook. The Minister went on to refer to the fact that the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and the Light Orchestra provide music of the highest standard. In that connection, I want to mention a matter which has caused considerable ill-feeling amongst musicians in the country. I refer to the large number of non-nationals who are members of the Radio Éireann Orchestra. I know that it will be stated that these persons are, in the main, only temporary employees, but the inclusion of a number of these persons has meant the dismissal or the termination of the services of a number of persons who, formerly, were employed by the Radio Éireann Orchestra. Two members whose services in the Radio Éireann Orchestra had been terminated played with the Hallé Orchestra when it was in Dublin recently under Sir John Barbirolli. The fact that these persons are regarded as competent to play in an orchestra with the reputation of the Hallé Orchestra shows that they were competent musicians. The position which exists at the moment, whereby a number of persons who are members of the Radio Éireann Orchestra are in a continuous state of uncertainty because of the large-scale dismissals has, I think, worsened the prospects of securing an orchestra which will have not merely a high reputation, but which will have in it persons who are contented with their conditions of service. I do not think that our musicians cannot learn from some contact with musicians abroad. I do not think that they cannot be improved by being enabled to study with foreign orchestras, but I think they should be provided with the opportunities of equipping themselves by, if necessary, travelling abroad rather than by being replaced, even on a temporary basis, by persons who come here from different parts of Europe. If we want to have an orchestra with an international reputation it should be an Irish orchestra.

Hear, hear!

We can listen in to any station in Europe and hear an orchestra from another country but, at the moment, the Radio Éireann Orchestra is some sort of international orchestra broadcasting from Radio Éireann. I think it is only right that our people should have the best standard available and an orchestra with a first-class reputation but it should be composed of Irish musicians.

Reference has been made to the fact that we have had good conductors, that some of the conductors have come here from abroad and that the Radio Éireann Orchestra has improved. Many years ago, when the Army band was first established in this country, the band got the services of a foreign conductor, the late Colonel Fritz Brase. He did not bring in a foreign band. He trained members of the Army and established, not merely one band but a number of bands with high reputations —bands which were subsequently conducted by Irish conductors who, in some cases, had been trained abroad and who had equally high reputations. I think that, in the same way, it is possible for the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra to be trained to the same high level, and the fact that some members were regarded as suitable for inclusion in the Hallé Orchestra, on its recent visit to Dublin, supports the view that there are available in this country musicians comparable with those of any other country, if they are given a reasonable chance. It is a fact that, in addition to the foreigners in the orchestra, the Director of Cór Radio Éireann has recently been replaced by a non-national, or a person of foreign extraction. I do not want to raise controversial matters here merely for the sake of raising them but it is only right to say that there is a strong feeling amongst Irish musicians on this matter. Consideration should be given to their views as well as to the hardships that this situation has caused to a number of them.

The Minister referred to the fact that it was hoped to give greater variety in programmes and he spoke of the sponsored programmes. I think anybody who listens to the sponsored programmes at lunch-time must be surprised at the type of music broadcast. Unless one heard specific reference to the fact that the industries concerned were situated in this country, and that the goods were manufactured in this country, one would not get that impression from listening to the music. I am fortunate in that I never have time to listen to the lunch-time programme because sometimes I am told the programmes would blow the head off any listener. I think, as Deputy Breanndán Mac Fheórais suggested to-day by way of parliamentary question, some censorship should be imposed on the form of entertainment given. It is of course only natural to expect that the firms concerned will present as vigorously as possible the merits of their own goods or whatever type of service they render, but interspersed between these sponsored programmes there should be more variety. Where the fare offered consists of a whole series of sponsored programmes one after another, it is like a blitz attack on listeners. While one programme may have as its main object the boosting of one particular type of goods or services, when it is followed by another programme of a similar kind, the repetitive nature of the programmes becomes somewhat tedious to listeners.

The Minister referred to the fact that more commodious studio accommodation is required but he did not say that it was proposed to provide new studios. While some improvements have been made in the existing studio accommodation at the G.P.O., the studio accommodation there was never designed to provide proper facilities for a radio station. Consideration should be given to the establishment of a separate broadcasting station. I do not think it is necessary to have a very elaborate or costly station. There is always the danger that when a desire is expressed for some new building or some new service, the most grandiose scheme will be put forward and that some person charged with responsibility of providing the outline of such a scheme, will elaborate on the necessity for a grandiose building or for an elaborate type of administration. I think it should be possible within the limits of our financial resources and within the limits of the services which we are expected to provide, to build a reasonably commodious radio station and to have available there adequate facilities for broadcasting.

The proposals announced envisage an alternative programme. That programme should be different from the programme normally provided. An effort should be made to ensure that it will be a different type of programme not merely an alternative programme. If a person wants to hear an alternative programme he generally turns over to another station or to another wavelength for that particular station. But if an alternative programme is merely a repetition of the normal programme, then it cannot have the same attraction. I should like to suggest that the new comhairle should consider immediately the possibility of providing a different programme under whatever name it may be called—a second programme or an alternative programme.

The proposals which were announced here by the Minister mark an improvement on the services that have existed hitherto. The only criticism which I should like to express is the one I mentioned at the outset, namely that it would be far better—and I believe if proposals were brought in here to that end, agreement could be reached on the matter—to come to a decision to set up an autonomous statutory body or corporation. Any discussion on radio services either here or elsewhere may result in conflicting views being expressed. Recently an effort was made to get some form of an all-Party agreement in Britain in order to provide new legislation or a new scheme for the B.B.C. That effort failed but the mere fact that it failed is no reason why an effort should not be made here to get agreement amongst all Parties for the setting up of an independent statutory corporation to deal with broadcasting and to lay down general lines of policy which could be incorporated in a Bill. The proposals which have been announced here have the merit that some improvement is proposed but it is fair neither to those concerned with the broadcasting service, to the advisory committee nor to the comhairle, to expect them to give to the country a proper radio service if they have not either independence, the legislative sanction or the autonomy which the persons concerned with the running of such a service should have.

I consider that the proposals are in the main acceptable and if the Minister can persuade his colleagues in the Government and the Department of Finance to lessen its control and the financial restrictions under which Radio Éireann operates, then we shall support any legislation or any measures which he may bring before the House for that purpose or, at any rate, support the general intention of such a measure. There may be differences of opinion afterwards as to the form of legislation or as to the type of statutory body which should be established but in general we support and recommend a decision to establish an independent body which would promote broadcasting.

As one who, during the years which have passed, particularly the struggling years of Radio Éireann, spoke constantly on this Estimate, I did my part, both here and outside, with writers, musicians and organisations to have proper conditions established in Radio Éireann. I must admit that, during recent years, the general condition of things there has improved. I do not think anyone will take exception to that statement—that the general condition of things has improved. However, I do not desire to say very much on this Estimate, but I do feel it my duty, following Deputy Cosgrave, to speak here as Chairman of the Municipal School of Music, and to say that I disagree profoundly—in this I think I am expressing the views of the great majority of people associated with music in the city and also, in my opinion, of the great majority of my own constituents—with the development in connection with the symphony and light orchestra of Radio Éireann, and to say that it is not in the best interests of this country.

I do not believe that we want an orchestra of international standard if we have to bring in internationals to make it that. If the money that is paid out of taxation in this connection is for anything, it is to nurture Irish talent in whatever direction it is available. That has always been the tenor of my speeches in this House on Radio Éireann and on kindred subjects. I, therefore, fail to see how those who agreed with me in the past will disagree with me now.

The Minister has made many pertinent remarks during the last few weeks, but I think that the most impertinent observation that has come from him during the last few days is in the current issue of a journal called Radio Review.“Completely inadequate,” is the description by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. Erskine Childers, “is the training of musicians to concert standard in this country.” Now, it all depends on what the criterion of “concert standard” is. If the criterion of concert standard is a standard on a par with the best to be had in other places in the world, well then, possibly, we do not come up to it in every aspect. I say this, and I say it here deliberately—I say it from my association with people whose services have been dispensed with in Radio Éireann during the last few weeks—that they are as competent as any who have come here to replace them. Yesterday, I heard of two more dismissals during the last few weeks. There was one man who had been playing for nine years with the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and he was replaced by a German musician. He is a man with a wife and family. I suppose he can go elsewhere to seek employment. However, whether these people are equal to, or better than, our own musicians, my contention is that what the Irish people want to hear is an Irish orchestra which can be gradually coached along until it reaches the stage of perfection which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs so earnestly desires.

We have a very short, in fact we have practically no, tradition in this class of music. We all must realise that this country did not get the same chance as continental countries to develop on those lines, but no continental country of which I am aware, set about building up a musical tradition in the way that Radio Éireann and the Minister are attempting to do, by putting their native musicians on the roll of the unemployed and by bringing in people from the far corners of the earth.

I want to ask the Minister, who are the people who select these people from the Continent? Who are his scouts? Who are the people who say that these musicians are superior to our people, and who are the people who inform him that these are the best performers? I do not know who are the people who inform him that these people are good teachers.

A scholarship scheme has now been announced in the public Press in relation to one institution in this city. I have no rivalry, except a friendly rivalry, with any of the musical establishments here, but there are a number of musical establishments in this city which have turned out excellent performers over the years. The Minister, I can only say, must have been stone deaf during the last 25 years if he attended the Feis Ceoil and did not hear the comments of competent adjudicators, who are changed regularly every year, on some of our performers here. However, as I say, this is my protest here I want the Minister to understand that this policy will be opposed. It will be opposed with all the vigour that I and people associated with me in the musical life of the city can command. That is my last word here to-day.

After the lengthy speech that we have had from the Minister, I feel somewhat disappointed because from Press reports I was expecting to hear that the Minister had succeeded in taking Radio Éireann, lock, stock and barrel away from the Department of Finance. Unfortunately, that is not so. Civil servants, because of their training, always take the safe side—the side of caution—and no matter what the Minister may wish or desire he will find that he will be up against the problem of being told that certain things cannot be done. I am sure he has already found that out for himself. Therefore, the Minister, while we all wish the new organisation every success, will I fear be faced with the problem which many of his predecessors were faced with.

Deputy Cosgrave has rightly pointed out that the head of the Department will still be the accounting officer and will, because of his training, be on the side of safety. So far as the amount of money to be allocated is concerned, it will not matter if the Minister receives £50,000 more than the licence fees bring in, he will still have to contend with the accounting officer, who is responsible to the Department of Finance.

I agree with Deputy Cosgrave that if the Minister had succeeded in persuading the members of the Government to have an independent body, he would have had the support of the House. The problem that I have referred to will still be there, even though you have a comhairle or an advisory body. The Minister will be answerable in this House for Radio Éireann. Even so, there will be opposition members who will feel that they are not getting a fair show. I am satisfied of that from my experience in the broadcasting station. In 1948 when I was a few months in office I reported to this House that I was not satisfied a Civil Service Department was the best that could be put in control of our radio station. In 1928 the Department of Posts and Telegraphs took control. We opposed that control tooth and nail but the responsibility was nevertheless handed over.

In 1948 I stated I would give the director and the staff full freedom of action. I stated they had my complete confidence. I am glad the Minister has promised the new body the same freedom of action in their work, but the fact remains that he will still be responsible to this House for broadcasting and we will have here the inevitable questions, irrespective of whatever Minister is in office, asking why a particular individual was not given more time on the air as compared with some other individual.

The news editors are trained professional men. They know their work, and I am glad the Minister has adopted the same principle as I did. He never interferes with them. He leaves them to act at their own discretion. It is only natural, however, that out of a sense of loyalty to the Minister they should try to keep on the safe side, and for that reason I am afraid that we will continue to have here year after year discussions and questions in connection with Radio Éireann.

I have no comments to offer on the proposed personnel of the new council. I believe they are all qualified, worthy men. No matter what names the Minister may submit there will always be some people prepared to criticise. The new council should be given a fair start and every assistance in their task.

The Minister stated that the people in the cities and towns are conservative in their tastes while the people in the rural areas are more racy of the soil and there is from them a continual demand for songs and ballads, but we have not enough variety.

Coming now to the employment of foreign musicians, I regret the Minister has seen fit to reverse the undertaking I gave publicly here that I would employ no more foreigners or non-nationals in Radio Éireann. Pressure was brought to bear on me to employ a trumpeter and a bugler who were non-nationals. I was told that these men had been in the country for years and utilised their spare time in giving lessons and training others. I held they could not be giving value for the money they were receiving by way of fees for such lessons and training since we could find no bugler or trumpeter of our own suitable for appointment to Radio Éireann. I therefore refused to appoint these two men. Now, the Minister has seen fit to reverse that decision and some more non-nationals have been employed.

We are paying £55,000 per year for a symphony orchestra. The Minister has stated that he will have a ballot taken to find out what the wishes of the people are. I believe 80 per cent. of the people never listen to symphony concerts. There are two concerts weekly in Dublin. If a provincial town asks for the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra they must put up £400 before the orchestra is allowed to go down there. If the people in Dublin want high-class, high-brow music let them have it. Why should the ordinary licensed holder living in the hills have to pay extra for his licence in order to benefit the people in Dublin? He never listens to the symphony orchestra. Yet £50,000 is spent per year on that symphony orchestra and now we are told that many of those engaged in it are non-nationals.

I am glad Deputy McCann has protested against their employment, and I hope that, as a result of his protest, some action will be taken. If Deputy McCann is sincere, he will get an opportunity of putting his words into action in order to show those in control that, irrespective of Party, we are in favour of Irish musicians being employed as far as possible. We do not want to see them thrown on the roadside.

The Minister has said he is in favour of having more Irish songs and Irish ballads broadcast. In that part of the country in which I live there are no cinemas and there are no entertainments. The people have their battery sets and they turn on to the B.B.C. The people in the rural areas do not want first-class drama. There are many local festivals that could be broadcast. There are local plays which would meet the requirements of the ordinary people if they were put on the air. If a play is produced in a local hall the hall is packed. Why not give the people who are unable to attend an opportunity of hearing that over the air? That would be better than giving the people the symphony orchestra two or three nights in the week at a cost of £55,000 per year.

I know it is not possible to satisfy everybody, particularly when so many people come along as experts to criticise. I am not criticising. I am merely making suggestions, and I wish the Minister every success in the effort he is making. I hope he will go further. He will have the support of all Parties here.

I am somewhat surprised at the silence now in relation to the short-wave station. When we were in Government the present Taoiseach, the present Minister for External Affairs and the present Minister for Finance were all howling in condemnation of us because the short-wave station was not put into operation. The Taoiseach mentioned at the time that he recognised it would cost money. Nevertheless he said it should be put into operation. The Minister for External Affairs stated there was no necessity for negotiations with Mexico or Copenhagen or anywhere else, though I assured him at the time that we were awaiting the conclusions of a conference that was then sitting in Copenhagen. In 1949, the then Government gave an order that the short-wave station was to be put into operation and we were to give half-hour broadcasts daily to America and Canada. To-night there has not been a word about the short-wave station. Why the silence on the part of the Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Finance, both of whom were so very vocal here when they believed it was necessary to have a short-wave station? It could not be postponed for six months. They required the short-wave station to counteract the half-hour broadcasts from Belfast with Partition propaganda. The Government are now nearly one and a half years in office and the Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Finance have full control, but we have not heard one word about the short-wave station. At that time it was pointed out by the Department, when it was proposed to have a short-wave station for broadcasting to America, that the American people had not any short-wave receiving sets. Therefore arrangements were made to get "frequencies", which they succeeded in getting at Copenhagen.

I ask the Minister to make some statement as to what is to happen with regard to the short-wave station. Will it be used for the second programme or has the Minister made an arrangement with another country which is very anxious to get "time" on the short-wave station? If the Minister does not propose to proceed with it he might consider the question of selling "time" and using the "frequency" he has so as to bring in more money and have more money at his disposal.

Then, the Minister has not said a word about television. I recognised some years ago that it was a matter which we should be cautious about. The question had to be very carefully considered as we could not afford to spend the huge sum of money which other countries spend on television until we had a better idea about it. I am sure the Minister must now realise that there have been great developments in regard to television and that it will be installed in the Six Counties in a few months' time. That being so, has the Department or has the Minister considered whether there is any way of making an arrangement with the Belfast station for television in the Twenty-Six Counties? I am sure the Minister has been viewing some television programmes here as I have in my own town where there is a very good reception. Although these have to come over the intervening hills and across the water, there is a very clear reception in Wicklow, as I told the Minister before. Perhaps the Minister could make some arrangement such as I have suggested. I am aware that we could not establish a television station and go on spending a huge sum of money until we know definitely how television will develop and whether there will be any changes in the next few years. But, pending a definite solution of the problem, I think the Minister will be forced within the next 12 months by the public demand for it, now that our friends across the Border are to have it, to make some arrangement to provide television for the people in other areas who are not privileged as some people in Wicklow are at present. I understand the difficulty of the Minister. It is a question of money. But, as the Taoiseach pointed out about the short-wave station, the money had to be found and we will have to get money by selling "time" if necessary for having our own station.

I sympathise with the officials in the radio station. We know that the Post Office is not an ideal place for a station. We know their difficulties and the inconveniences they have to put up with. We know that they are tied up by Civil Service regulations and in regard to money by the Department of Finance. But, on the whole, Radio Éireann has done very well, no matter how certain people may criticise it. If they realised the problems which the station staff have to face in trying with a small amount of money to satisfy and cater for the people, then they would appreciate the difficulties and realise that they have got on very well on the whole.

I am glad that the director of the station, as the Minister said, has been promoted. I was afraid, on account of comments made here, that a certain Minister would not be a party to it. The director had his own difficulties in trying to satisfy the tastes of the different people and I am glad the Minister has appreciated his work, knowing as I do the work he has done and the inconvenience and the problems that he had to face for four years. We hope that his successor will have a better time and will have greater support than the present staff had for the last few years. As I said, Radio Éireann has done very well. If we had an independent company running it there would still be people to criticise owing to the different tastes of individuals.

I appeal to the Minister to take the matter into his own hands and not have any more foreign musicians coming into the country. I am not a great musician, but travelling around my own constituency I know the people are determined about that. They are against what is happening in connection with the symphony orchestra and are all out to do certain things as a protest against the employment of these foreigners. There is no use trying to convince these people that we have not Irish musicians who are quite capable.

As I said, I welcome some of the things mentioned by the Minister. I ask him, however, to give us some information in connection with the short-wave station and what his idea is about television. Is there any hope in the immediate future or within the next 12 months of a short-wave station? Will "time" be sold to any other country or will he utilise it for the second programme? I hope the staff of the station will get every support that can possibly be given to them. With the limited money which he has at his disposal the Minister should take a freer hand. He will have the co-operation of all Parties, and I hope he will be able to fight the Department of Finance and convert his colleagues to the necessity of having broadcasting in this country free from any political or Government interference.

There is only one matter on which I can congratulate the Minister. We have heard very often from Ministers about what collective responsibility in Government means. I congratulate the Minister on the collective responsibility with regard to one thing, and that is his hint about an increased charge for licences. If collective responsibility means anything to the Ministers of the various Departments it is in connection with an increase of revenue of one kind or another. It is for that and that alone that I have to congratulate the Minister.

There is one item on the Radio Éireann programme of which I have not a hard word to say and that is what is called "The Week in Leinster House". In my opinion, that is very fair. It gives a very honest account of what happens and a fair crack of the whip to all Deputies. That is the one item that I can refer to here in what I would call a happy mood.

The Minister spoke for about an hour and ten minutes, the greatest length of time for the reading of a statement by any Minister for Posts and Telegraphs I ever heard in this House. In it he discussed what he found out during the time he was abroad. As regards Radio Éireann, he spoke about our plays and our music, Irish settings and Irish characters. He referred to Radio Éireann as satisfying our own people. He spoke about native talent, and so on. I want to tell the Minister something he and the officials of his Department will not like, and it is this: Many of those dramatic and musical productions foisted on the public by Radio Éireann have reached an all-time low level in my opinion. They betray an equally low level of intelligence and lack of decency and common sense in the people who allow such productions to go over Radio Éireann. As regards being educational or entertaining, Radio Éireann is neither one nor the other. On the dramatic side plays are broadcast from time to time over Radio Éireann that belittle the Irish people, our manners and our intelligence. Not so long ago—I could give you the date; I will not name the play —a play was broadcast with special reference to our Garda force which brought them down to the level of "the Peeler and the Goat". Within the last ten days I listened to a play being broadcast which referred to the home-made bread and home-made cake, and to the landlady pressing the guests to eat more of it; it portrayed how one of the guests kept dumping the bread under the table to the dog, and how the landlady praised him for all he eat. Later on he found the dog did not eat it, and he had to eat it himself. I wonder whom all that fun is for.

It may be fun to the Minister, to his officials and the people responsible for it in Radio Éireann. It is no fun to the Irish people. If foreigners listen to that stuff they get the impression that we are inhuman, that we are a savage people who will eat the leavings of the dog. When the Minister was abroad I wonder did he hear comments on those things? In my time out foreign I heard those comments. Foreigners believe we are that class of people. It may be all right for Deputy Cogan to laugh but I do not see any amusement in that class of thing. No other people would allow a mockery to be made of their citizens or to be made a laughing stock of as Radio Éireann allows it to be done to our people. It is my opinion that we would be better off without a Radio Éireann than to allow it to be making a mockery of our people in that way. I intend to oppose that kind of thing in every way I can.

In his statement the Minister referred to the satisfying of our people. I wonder if doing the stage Irishman satisfies our people? I wonder is that the Irish setting to which he refers? Is that the Irish character to which he refers? Is there any Deputy on either side of the House who would agree that before the eyes of foreigners we should be set up as people of that description? He referred to radio as more important than the daily Press. If it is, he and the officials of his Department have quite a lot to answer for in allowing stuff of that description to go over the air to be listened to by foreigners who honestly believe that we are the type of people that Radio Éireann makes out we are.

I have no doubt that that class of presentation will continue. I have no doubt that the Minister will not prevent it. I do not believe either that he or his officials or the people responsible for it will prevent it until such time as they are compelled by this House to do so. I would ask the Minister to say when he is replying whether he is aware that such stuff is carried on. Does he listen in to the programmes? Is he aware of such so-called fun and amusement? Where is the fun and at whose expense is the fun—at the expense of our own people? It is no fun for them. It may be fun for the foreigner but it is a bad day that an institution of our Government presents stuff like that to poke fun at our own people for the amusement of foreigners.

The Minister said in his statement that we want entertainment for foreigners. I suppose the entertainment is the class of entertainment to which I referred. I want him, when he is replying, to tell me and to tell this House: will that kind of entertainment be stopped? Is any more of that going to be allowed through Radio Éireann? If it is, the sooner Radio Éireann is abolished along with the new council and the old one, the better for this country.

As regards the musical side, that is only a jazz band in my opinion. It is neither entertainment nor anything else. There is no other point I wish to raise but I will watch closely; I will wait for the Minister's reply and I ask him to be definite on behalf of his Department that no more of that dope, the stage Irishman, the pig in the parlour, The Peeler and the Goat, the Irishman eating the bread left by the dog, will be presented on Radio Éireann. I want the Minister to state that that will be prevented and that our people will not be held up as a mockery so that foreigners can have fun at the expense of our people through programmes put over the air by the authority of a Parliament that is supposed to represent the people of this country.

I welcome the news that we are going to have a new council to manage the affairs of Radio Éireann and broadcasting generally.

I understood from the Minister that the comhairle would be in charge of its own affairs very largely and would not be directly answerable to the Minister. There was some doubt on that. No Deputy would like to see a body set up which would be entirely independent of this House. We have had experience of bodies of which we wish we had a little more control. It is necessary that the body should be under the control of the Minister but it is very welcome news that the broadcasting system is about to be given a freedom to manage its own affairs that it has never had. That should mean that a new outlook will prevail in broadcasting circles. I think the Minister is to be commended in that respect.

I was very glad to hear the Minister give his support in the House to the question of the provision of a concert and assembly hall. That is a matter with which I am very deeply concerned. I should like to say to those members of the House who might wonder what precisely a concert and assembly hall has to do with broadcasting generally that one of the things which an orchestra or those who put on plays need is an audience. The presence of an audience means that the orchestra and players do much better work.

If we had in Dublin a first-class concert hall, public concerts could be given on every occasion that the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra play. Such a concert hall would be very useful for international congresses or assemblies which might be held in Dublin. It is not generally known that certain international assemblies have wished very much to hold congresses in Dublin but have been unable to do so owing to the fact that we have not an assembly hall suitable for their various requirements. A concert hall would be of tremendous benefit, therefore, to the tourist trade.

Now I come to the very vexed question of the orchestra. We are proud of the work which the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and the Light Orchestra are doing. In the comparatively short period of their existence they have improved their standard very much and that has improved musical standards generally.

In Dublin there has been a very high standard of pianoforte playing. Dublin is a well-known centre of first-class piano technique. That high standard of technique, which is very well known and established throughout these islands and further afield, did not come about accidentally. It came about through the genius and devotion of one man who came to Dublin in the nineteenth century. He devoted his life to raising the standard of playing of his pupils. That had repercussions throughout the country and, as a result, the Irish school of pianoforte playing gained a very high reputation.

In my opinion we are one of the most musically gifted races in the world. We may possibly be the most gifted. We certainly have amongst our people very, very musically gifted persons. Our people were receptive of the first-class training which was made available. Up to that point, Ireland had not been famous in any way for pianoforte playing and was on a par only with the British Isles, which had not any standard worth speaking of during the nineteenth century.

I would like to see our symphony orchestra and light orchestra composed entirely of Irish people. It is a tragic thing that a married man should be dismissed from the orchestra. I have only heard that mentioned here. I would ask the Minister to look into the matter and I will be interested to hear from the Minister the facts of some of these cases.

We have never had in Dublin the same standard in the teaching of string and other instruments as we have had the good fortune to have in the case of the pianoforte. We have had, of course, many highly gifted teachers of singing, although we have not been a centre of singing comparable with Milan or other Italian centres. Deputies want Irish people to be employed in our Irish orchestra, but they also want the standard of playing of our orchestra elevated to the highest international level. I feel very strongly on that matter, because I have faith in the musical genius of our Irish people. I do not say that to court popularity. I say it as one who has been associated with music and the musical people of Dublin all my life. We should try to create in Dublin the atmosphere in which musical genius can flourish. If that is done we will produce instrumentalists who will enhance the reputation of our country.

This country has produced great singers, despite a lack of facilities for instruction. Owing to the historical circumstances of this country our people have not had the opportunities of getting musical training, or indeed in many cases the ordinary musical voice teaching, yet in spite of that we have produced an amazing number of world beaters. We have produced John McCormack and Margaret Burke Sheridan—those are just two of the names that come to my mind—people whose musical genius has been known and apparent to everybody in the musical world.

I want to see our musical people given opportunities in and through the radio orchestra to develop the genius which I know they have and which every musical person knows they have. On the one hand, we do not want to see Irish people put off an orchestra. I think that is something that is very sad and something that no Deputy in this House could stand over. At the same time, I am sure every Deputy wants to see the Radio Symphony Orchestra at least as good as the Hallé Orchestra, the London Symphony Orchestra or the Boston Symphony Orchestra. I might say, in that connection, that the American orchestras are staffed entirely by foreign musicians. I am not saying that in favour of our staffing with foreign musicians, but it is a fact. Everyone here wants to see our orchestras second to none in the world. We can do that by bringing in foreign teachers. The teaching of music, and indeed of ensemble playing, is a very difficult and exacting profession. There are certain people who can be trained or who have the natural genius to succeed as solo players, but they may not have the same ability or technical skill to succeed in the difficult ensemble playing which is necessary in a great orchestra. I am sure it would be the wish of this House to see that we have the maximum number of Irish musicians employed in our Irish orchestras and that we are working towards the goal of a 100 per cent. Irish orchestra staffed by Irish musicians. At the same time, we want to see our people trained so that they can produce this innate Irish musical genius and show it off to advantage, as I believe it will if it gets half a chance.

It is our duty to give our Irish people the opportunity of having first-class teachers. That is the ambition I would hold before the Minister and his advisers in connection with the Radio Symphony Orchestra. I trust that the House will agree with me on that. One or two speakers talked about the orchestra as if its standard did not matter. Its standard does matter very much. It is one of the things on which Ireland is judged and our culture and our attitude towards the things of the mind are judged. I trust that the Minister will settle the differences with the Irish people in the orchestra. I want to see him training our people in music, as we have now got an opportunity of producing musicians in a way that we have never had before.

I merely want to intervene briefly in the debate on this Estimate to make a few remarks in reference to broadcasting generally. I am not going to voice a personal opinion as to the type of programme I would like, as we have been hearing personal opinions too often here on this subject. I congratulate the Minister on having established this body which will take care of broadcasting in the future. The members comprising it are not men with a one-track mind. It is important that they should have divergent views on broadcasting, since the important point with regard to our programmes by and large is that they should be varied. No section of the community has any right to impose its will on the broadcasting authorities to dominate the programmes throughout the year. Every section has its own interests which should be catered for and I feel that the body which the Minister now proposes will take full cognisance of that important feature. I hope they will not be like many of the speakers we have heard here, that they will not take purely a Dublin outlook on Radio Éireann.

We must remember that radio has brought to the lonely homes on the hillsides and in the backward counties a means by which the people can entertain themselves in the long, lonely, dreary nights. The people who are compelled to remain in those areas —from which many are fleeing every year—are entitled to get more than their share of the type of programme which will entertain them and for which they are clamouring from Radio Éireann. While a great many listeners live in the City of Dublin, it would be a grave mistake for Radio Éireann to cater largely for the city listener alone. The bias should be on the type of programme which the rural listener would like. I submit that too much of the high-brow stuff is not desired by the people in rural Ireland. I am not pretending to be competent to judge these programmes but I certainly know that a very large section of the listening public who like and prefer the traditional music feel that they do not get sufficient of that type of programme. I suggest that no particular section should be allowed to enforce their will so as to get entirely the type of programme they desire.

One speaker thought that our sponsored programmes were a disgrace. Others seemed to think that they were quite interesting. Personally, I think that the sponsored programme is one that is, perhaps, turned on more often than any other programme by the housewife. I do not think they should be discouraged. In fact, I think they provide a great deal of entertainment at a time when it is most needed.

It is scarcely traditional music.

I am glad to note that we get a variety in that respect too. One particular body or company gives a very good selection of traditional music in the sponsored programmes.

Of course, it is a County Cork concern.

I will not mention any names but at least it introduces a lot of variety and gives a variation to the sponsored programme. The first speaker on the Opposition Benches was dissatisfied that the Minister had given complete authority to this body to control Radio Éireann. That is the important point in this discussion. It would be a mistake if the Minister did not maintain some control over that body.

We had Deputy Donnellan decrying some of the plays that were produced recently. He maintained that they were of the stage Irishman type and a disgrace to Radio Éireann and to the people who were responsible for them. If we are to have control over that sort of thing, then it is not advisable that we should hand over to an independent body statutory rights and complete control of Radio Éireann without giving the Minister the authority to control the programmes which are prepared by them. What other means of redress would we have if such programmes were "dished up" daily by a body over whom we would have no control?

We could sack them.

We might have to sack one every day. It is essential that the Minister should maintain some control, as he has, over the present body to ensure that this House will at all times be able to intervene if and when it thinks that broadcasting is not being suitably produced for the majority of the people of this country.

There is one other little matter which I have always thought militated against the chances of people living far away from Dublin, the amount paid for talent. The amount paid particular artists was never sufficient to induce that type of artist who lived at a distance from Dublin to come up occasionally to take part, if they were permitted, in any of the broadcasts.

Hear, hear!

The fees paid on such occasions——

Are miserable.

——usually work out in such a way that the particular artist who travels from Donegal, Sligo or Cork is out of pocket by the time he returns home. That is not an inducement to talent living in those decentralised places.

I think there are two ways in which that could be remedied. One way, of course, would be to increase the fees. I think they have been increased during the last year, but they are still very inadequate. The other remedy would be to have more relayed programmes from the provinces, which would enable the local talent to take part in the local hall, and in that way give the listening public a chance of hearing the talent available in the different areas. The system of having relayed concerts from the provincial centres should be encouraged, and the fees paid to individual artistes from outside areas should be increased.

The number of persons who listen to wireless programmes in the rural areas is not, I understand, in proportion to the number of city listeners. It is a rather small proportion of the total. That should not in any way be taken into account in the arrangement of programmes. Many of those who listen in the city would be quite satisfied to hear programmes that would have a rural bias.

I think that the body now taking over control of broadcasting should ensure that there is a rural bias and that a type of programme which is appreciated by those people in the outlying areas, particularly in the rural areas, should be specially provided. The bias, as I have said, should be on that type of programme.

I congratulate the Minister upon setting up this body. I believe that he is perfectly correct in maintaining control of it. If he had established it as a statutory body with absolute control of broadcasting, I think we would have had very much comment as to the personnel of the body and a great deal of criticism would be expressed one way or another with regard to the likelihood of there being bias towards one particular section or another.

With regard to political broadcasts I always felt—I am only expressing a personal view—that during the days of the Coalition Government the Ministers and speakers of that Government got more than their due.

We are not discussing that matter. We are discussing the present Estimate.

I thought I might get that pushed in since a few other speakers succeded in making reference to it already. I think Deputy Donnellan made some reference to it. He made some reference to the political bias likely to be operated by the authorities. Having said that much, I hope that the body now being appointed will exercise its control impartially having due regard to all political sections. As I said at the outset, I hope they will not be a one-track mind body, that they will cater for a variety of people and not for any particular section that might try to enforce its will in regard to what they believe. If they like a particular type of programme it should not follow that everybody else should be made listen to that particular type of programme.

I would like to intervene in this debate for a brief period in order to bring to the notice of the Minister a few matters in which I am very keenly interested. At the outset, I believe that it is only fair to say that the general public have a very high appreciation of the work of Radio Éireann. As mentioned by Deputy Brennan, in so far as the rural and more isolated districts are concerned, Radio Éireann is the only source of entertainment for many people residing in those places. It would be very difficult for Radio Éireann or any concern similar to it to devise a system and draw up programmes that would please everybody, and I feel sure that if there were 1,000 different programmes not everybody would be pleased. I appreciate the difficulty of the Minister and his officials with regard to devising a system which will be pleasing to everybody.

Many people have addressed themselves to this question of music, and Deputy Everett mentioned that, in Radio Éireann, we have a number of foreign musicians employed. I cannot see the necessity for employing any foreign musicians because, so far as the people of Cork and, I am sure, of the country, are concerned, they have much more faith in and appreciation of Irish music than any foreign music. I believe we have sufficient Irish artists to cater for the musical needs of the Irish people, and I should like to see included in programmes for the future much more Irish music than has been included in the past.

Some time ago I addressed a question to the Minister, a question of somewhat local interest, with regard to interference with reception in West Cork. The Minister referred to it in his opening remarks and, in his answer to that question, he mentioned that interference was more prevalent in West Cork than in any other part of the country. He assigned a number of reasons for it, but I am of opinion that the Minister has not taken the steps which I believe he should have taken to remedy the grievance of the people of that area or any other area where such interference exists.

The Minister said that there were something like 1,000 complaints from the country in general, but I can tell him, so far as reception in West Cork is concerned, he could find 1,000 people there with that complaint. I ask him now to see to it, because it is his bounden duty to give to the people in areas where reception is not what it should be every opportunity of getting proper reception.

The second matter I want to refer to is a matter in which I have a very special interest—the inclusion in the weekly sports review of a commentary on bowl-playing matches. Bowl-playing is one of the oldest and manliest of Irish games. It is the traditional game of the people in Cork County, a game which has been played there for generations back. No one seems to know how it originated or when, but when we have commentaries on every other type and form of sport, many of them completely foreign in origin, it is entirely out of place that a game which is 100 per cent. Irish and patronised by almost every person in County Cork and to a limited extent by people in every county in Ireland, should not get what it is entitled to, a weekly commentary from Radio Éireann, the same as other games. So far as the submission of details regarding bowling matches is concerned, I believe he will have little or no difficulty in getting the full facts with regard to them and I hope that in the not too far distant future, along with having bowl-playing on the roads in County Cork, we will have it on the air from Radio Éireann as well.

It is a big loft.

I am not blaming the Minister for the fact that it is not on the air already because I believe it has not been brought to his notice.

There must be no Corkmen in Radio Éireann.

Cork is no unimportant part of Ireland, and without Cork Ireland would not be what it is. I am quite serious in this matter because it is a matter which was brought to my notice by various sportsmen, not only in my own constituency and in South Cork but in Deputy Keane's constituency of East Cork and in the Cork City area—the complaint that this game should be completely isolated, not only from the bulk of the Press of the country but from Radio Éireann as well.

I hope that, as a result of my intervention in the debate, the Minister will take much more active steps than he has taken in the past to improve matters for the many radio owners in West Cork who complain with regard to interference with reception and, secondly, to remedy the long-standing grievance of the bowl-playing public of County Cork in regard to giving this manly Irish game the recognition which it deserves. I hope also that, as a result of setting up this new body, general improvements to meet the needs of the different sections of the people will be brought about in the radio. I, for one, can say I am convinced that Radio Éireann is doing the best it possibly can to meet the needs of the Irish people and that it will continue to do so in the future.

I want to impress on the Minister what has already been impressed on him by Deputy Murphy. We have a good deal of complaint in West Cork about interference and I should like the Minister to indicate to what extent they have been able to overcome certain engineering and technical difficulties which I know exist. The Minister might be able to tell us in a general way what the prospect is. Any people who have any experience of dealing with radio problems know that difficulties have arisen in connection with wavelengths—the proximity of wavelengths to each other, overloading of wavelengths and crossing of wavebands; but there is this consistent and persistent claim, particularly in the area which Deputy Murphy and I have the honour to represent, that there is a peculiar type of interference there which at times practically obliterates completely any reception from Radio Éireann.

Is Potsdam not on the same wavelength?

Yes. There are certain features of the general radio situation to which I should like to advert. It may or may not be a good thing to set up this board. It is an experiment and I hope it is going to be successful. If the right personnel are selected and the right view taken by the board, and if there is the co-operation necessary to bring to a harmonious conclusion the efforts of the Minister and the board, we may get an improved scheme of programmes. It is a very vexed question and a very difficult question for anybody to give a constructive suggestion on.

Progress reported.
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