Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting (Resumed).

Mr. Cogan

In introducing this Estimate the Minister gave a very full account of the operations of his Department over the last year and of his plans for the future. I think the statement he made met with the general approval of the House though there was a certain amount of criticism in connection with one or two matters. That criticism related mainly to the employment of outside artistes and the proposal to set up a council under the control of the Minister rather than an independent corporation on similar lines to the B.B.C.

In connection with the employment of outside artistes everyone will agree that we ought to ensure as far as possible that our own nationals are employed in so far as that is consistent with the overall policy of maintaining the highest possible standards. Deputy Everett referred last night to his policy of rigidly confining employment to Irish nationals during the years in which he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. He told us about difficulties he had in securing buglers and trumpeters for the orchestra. I do not think he should have found such great difficulty even within the narrow limits of the Government of which he was a member. He should have been in a position to employ some very effective buglers and trumpeters.

With regard to the setting up of an independent corporation I do not think it is altogether desirable that Radio Éireann should be cut off completely from either parliamentary or ministerial control.

I doubt if the Deputies who advocate that course would be entirely satisfied subsequently. Some years ago legislation was enacted which cut Córas Iompair Éireann off from the control of this House and there have been many protests because of the inability of parliament to direct the policy of Córas Iompair Éireann. The Land Commission is a relatively independent body. Yet, we frequently have vehement demands for the abolition of that body and the handing over of control to the Minister and the House.

The Minister has acted wisely in giving Radio Éireann the widest possible measure of independence while at the same time retaining a certain amount of control. We might not be too pleased with the antics or actions of an Irish broadcasting corporation completely independent of this House. That corporation might act in a manner of which this House would strongly disapprove. The course outlined by the Minister is a reasonable one. The country generally is satisfied with the personnel of the council and with the new director.

I do not want to go too deeply into my personal opinions as to how Radio Éireann should be conducted but so long as this House controls that service it is only right that Deputies should make suggestions and that those suggestions should be considered. Deputies are not perhaps the best people to advise on broadcasting programmes because they have not very much time for listening to such programmes. One suggestion I have put forward repeatedly here has been accepted by the Minister. I have always advocated more debates on controversial subjects over the air. There is no subject too contentious or too controversial for broadcasting provided it is a subject of some interest and some importance. We ought to learn how to differ on important issues without becoming personally offensive. Frequently, there is a tendency here and elsewhere when a difference of opinion arises to ascribe all kinds of motives to our opponents. That does not help us in advancing towards a better solution of our problems. We should give others credit for good faith, for sincerity and for honesty.

If we had more debates on contentious subjects over the air our young people would have an opportunity of finding that it is possible for people to differ on questions of importance without heat, without rancour and without malice. Our people badly need that kind of education. There is a tendency to ascribe all kinds of ulterior motives to those who differ from us. That tendency could be counteracted by frequent debates such as I have suggested amongst the younger men upon whom the future of this nation depends. We should have debates on subjects such as socialism versus private enterprise, free trade versus protection, democracy versus dictatorship. All these subjects could be debated intelligently. There is no limit to the variety of subjects upon which people hold firm views. Let us have more debates over the air. It is particularly desirable that we should have debates on agricultural policy and agricultural practice. The merits and demerits of wheat growing could be debated. The merits and demerits of barley growing could be debated. There is an infinite variety of subjects which concern the agricultural community. These are all subjects which ought to be debated frankly over the air.

In this connection, I have listened to some debates on Radio Éireann and they were quite good, but I think there were technical faults. I am not an expert on the subject, but I think there were faults in these debates. One fault I find is a tendency towards incoherence owing to two speakers joining in the debate together. Where you have three speakers debating a subject and one man has made a good point I notice very frequently that you then have the other two trying to chip in. That is very irritating for the listeners. A clear, distinct diction is absolutely essential in broadcasting, and I think it is the duty of the chairman presiding over a debate of this kind to ensure that each speaker gets an opportunity of putting his points across and that only one speaker is allowed at a time. The tendency of two or three to chip in together does make the programme very irritating to the listeners.

Then there is no reason why we should not have political debates, why people listening over the radio should not hear Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour putting forward their particular points of view as strongly, as convincingly and ably as they are capable of doing. That would be a good education for the people. The people would have a chance of hearing the different points of view. There are many people in the country who have a tendency, because their leanings are towards one side or another, to listen only to the side they support. But if there is a good interesting debate, people will be tempted to listen to both sides. That would have a good educational value, and would be good for the creation of a better public spirit in this country and better citizenship. All that is needed is that the debates should be conducted with moderation and restraint, and technically put over as well as possible. I suppose it requires a certain amount of experience and training to be an effective debater, but it should be always possible to find in each of the political Parties some person who is quite good on the air, and that is very desirable.

During the past year the Minister introduced a programme of weekly comments on the proceedings of this House. That is a step in the right direction. I cannot say, however, that I entirely approve of the form which this commentary takes. The commentary is broadcast, I take it, by an impartial person, whose main idea is rigidly to avoid showing any favour to one side as against the other. That is all very well, but it does make for a certain amount of dullness, lack of interest, and coldness in the broadcast. Political discussion is entirely a clash of conflicting views, and I think that the commentary on the Dáil proceedings should be given by people who have partisan views. If half-an-hour per week is given to this commentary on parliamentary work, a quarter of an hour could be given to one side and a quarter of an hour to the other. In other words, you get a person who is favourable to one side to give a 15-minute broadcast on what he considers was the important business transacted during the week, and 15 minutes to a person on the other side, to give his views on the business transacted during the week. That is more or less the system operating in Britain. It may not be exactly as I say, but they usually select from one side of the House a member who gives his commentary on the work in Parliament. On the whole, I think that is proper. You cannot have a live, interesting commentary upon Dáil business, which is by its very nature controversial, by a person who tries to take an absolutely cold and detached view of the whole political discussion.

In addition, I do not think the person who gives that particular commentary does it unduly well. There is a tendency towards superiority in his commentary. It is impossible to please everybody in matters of this kind, but I have often felt that the commentator was reading his broadcast while standing on the bank of a river after having a cold plunge into the water. There is a tendency to rush through the proceedings and to be rather unduly cold and detached in his approach to the subject. I think that you would have a much more warm type of commentary if it were given by Deputy Corry or Deputy Corish or Deputy MacEoin and that the listeners would appreciate it more.

There is another matter to which I have frequently referred and to which the Minister should give some attention. I have frequently complained of the low standard of our Sunday night plays. We have a dramatic feature every Sunday night. These plays, or most of them, I suppose are well-known Irish plays written by Irish playwrights. For that reason, one would imagine that they would be generally acceptable. I have found, however, that most people, particularly in the country areas, regard them with a certain amount of horror. They consider that most of these plays are coarse, vulgar and brutal. There is nothing amusing or inspiring in them. Of course the Minister may say that he cannot do anything about that, that he has to take the plays that are offered and which are the only ones available. It is a pity that in this country over the last 50 years nobody has been found capable of writing a decent play with a really inspiring motive. This is a Christian country and surely we have some sense of nationality. Is there any nationality in the King of Friday's Men, Juno and the Paycock?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The Playboy of the Western World. They would not be writing about Ireland if they did not write that stuff.

Mr. Cogan

Why do Irish writers concentrate so much upon belittling their own people, degrading them as coarse, vulgar and brutal? Surely there are some educated, refined people in the country. Surely we are not all as rough as the characters that are presented to us on the radio, through the radio plays. I think that a separate cult was established many years ago probably by the Abbey Theatre and that cult is being followed slavishly by playwrights down through the years.

There are elevating and inspiring motives which could be the subject of drama but they are completely ignored by our playwrights. Again I say the Minister or the director of broadcasting may argue that he has no control over this matter, that he must take whatever is available; he is just like a miller who must use the grist that is brought to his mill. But a good miller can exercise some control or influence over the type of grist that comes to his mill. For instance, a miller, in the ordinary sense as a manufacturer, can encourage the growing of better grain. In the same way Radio Éireann can encourage or should encourage the production of better and more inspiring radio plays, more conducive to a better outlook on moral and national matters.

We have in the history of our nation a most inspiring source. No nation in the world has as much material of an elevating and inspiring type to call upon, but somehow or other our playwrights have ignored it. They prefer to grovel in the gutter. Surely the life of Padraig Pearse, Robert Emmet or, to go back further, Hugh O'Neill, or even the life of the present Taoiseach, would be an inspiring story, the struggle of men whose motive was the freedom of our nation. The struggle of such men to overcome all the difficulties that opposed them and their triumph or their failure is always an inspiring story.

I am going to make a suggestion in this matter. I think that Radio Éireann should offer a substantial prize to some playwright who would write now, on the 150th anniversary of the death of Robert Emmet, an inspiring story on his life and his death. Surely that would be a beginning. From that we might eventually have a spate of dramatic stories based on the lives of great men of the past. I am not suggesting we should deal with the present day but with the past, and even with the distant past. The men who sacrificed everything for an ideal are the people about whom we should write, not the type of guttersnipe that Irish playwrights prefer to dissect on the stage and in radio plays. Radio Éireann has a duty to the Irish people, a duty to educate and elevate as well as to entertain. They are failing and have failed in that duty. There is nothing inspiring in the programmes that are broadcast from Radio Éireann down through the years, nothing that would make a young boy or girl desire to be a better Christian and a better citizen. That is wrong, and it is time that a step should be taken to end that position.

Furthermore, there is an imperative duty on the shoulders of Radio Éireann to promote vigorously the gift of self-entertainment amongst our people, to encourage the production of music, singing and drama by our people scattered throughout the length and breadth of the nation. There should be regular programmes directed towards encouraging young people to use their talent, the gifts that God has given them, whether it be in the field of music or any other form of self-expression. There has been too much of a tendency by our people to rely on vicarious entertainment. The cinema has sapped the morale of our people to a great extent, and it is time we should call out what is best in our people instead of trying to dope or drug them into a critical silence.

I do not agree with Deputy Donnellan when he denounces various forms of comedy. I understood he was referring to attempts at comedy or humour. I know this is a very delicate subject. There is nothing as difficult as the task of trying deliberately to make people laugh. Those who have tried it will tell you that it is the most difficult form of entertainment. In Britain, of course, they have variety programmes of a light type but even those are very far from perfect. Even if occasionally—this is the point to which Deputy Donnellan referred— there is a joke at our expense, I do not think there is anything wrong in that so long as it is a joke. What I object to in our radio plays is their cold brutality, their morbidness, and in many cases the fact that they are degrading and demoralising. But when it comes to enjoyment, it is no harm now and then to laugh at ourselves. All the comedians of history have perhaps induced laughter at their own expense and I suppose, incidentally, at the expense of their own communities, their own people and their own nation. If you were to censure this form of humour we would all become deadly serious. There is nothing wrong with laughter provided it is spontaneous and right laughter. I think that anything that tends towards lightness in the programmes of Radio Éireann should be encouraged.

Mr. Hession

Would the Deputy ban Shakespearean tragedy?

Mr. Cogan

Certainly not.

Mr. Hession

It is rather crude and callous.

Mr. Cogan

The Deputy is trying now to raise a hare.

Mr. Hession

Quite bona fide.

Mr. Cogan

The Irish people are being fooled into accepting brutal and cruel forms of drama on the plea that there have been great tragedies in history. Many of the most important events in history were tragic. The events that took place at the birth of Christianity appeared to be tragic but were in reality a triumph. The lives of men like Robert Emmet or Pádraig Pearse may have seemed like tragedies but were spiritual triumphs. I am opposed to broadcasting the morbid type of tragedy which offers no hope either in this world or in the next, which offers no inspiration but is simply a representation of death, destruction and despair.

We ought to encourage a new departure in this matter through Radio Éireann. The United States have built up a vast literature based on the exploits of the pioneers in the Wild West and unexplored areas and on their struggles and sufferings. In the same way we can build a huge literature on the struggles, sacrifices and adventures of generations of Irishmen in their efforts to uphold a great ideal. That would be far more inspiring than anything that we have got from the Abbey Theatre or Radio Éireann in the past 50 years. It is time to put in their place Seán O'Casey and the whole lot and to tell them where they stand.

A film was shown in Dublin recently called The Quiet Man. There was a certain amount of humour in it but it was not very good. It was based on a story by an Irish writer who also wrote an historical novel of great merit, Blackcock's Feather.

I would like to see such a novel produced as a radio play if it could be condensed. Our aim should be to produce a type of drama that would be edifying, particularly to young people. The lack of that type of drama on Radio Éireann programmes is deeply deplored by everybody who has the interest of the nation at heart.

The Minister should give serious attention to the problem which will arise from the development of television. It would be wrong to hurry unduly. The matter should be very carefully considered, and policy in regard to it clearly defined during the next year or so.

I understand that in countries where programmes are televised there is a tendency for viewers to devote too much time to them. Young children may waste a lot of time in this way. If television were introduced here, the programmes should be of excellent quality but of short duration. It would be wrong to encourage young people to spend too much time viewing television programmes.

There have been and there always will be complaints about news broadcasts. I think they are reasonably fair. In fairness to Deputies, the bulletins broadcast by Radio Éireann should be made available in the Library. We often have complaints, and we will always have complaints from whatever Party is in opposition that there is undue favour shown to the Government side in these broadcasts. I do not think there is much in that complaint. Sometimes attempts are made to exploit Radio Éireann in the interests of whatever Government happens to be in power. I remember on one occasion hearing a letter of resignation of a particular postmaster being read over the radio in full, and the Minister's reply to that particular letter was also read in full, although there had been no comment, good, bad or indifferent or no news, good, bad or indifferent in regard to that particular matter prior to that or since that by Radio Éireann. That was just one example of what a Minister should not do.

Last week a Deputy complained bitterly that the engagement and marriage of a particular Minister were mentioned over the radio. I do not think there was any cause for complaint there. Engagements and marriages always have considerable news value and I think it was rather a mistake that the marriage of Deputy Flanagan to Fine Gael was not broadcast over Radio Éireann.

Mr. O'Donnell

Or your divorce! I welcome the establishment of this council. I particularly congratulate the Minister on the selection of an Ulsterman, a Six-County Gael, as one of the members of the council. It is a good thing to see our friends across that artificial border receiving some recognition.

Mr. Childers

Two Ulstermen.

Mr. O'Donnell

So much the better. I think it is a very good thing and I congratulate the Minister on selecting these two Ulstermen. It is a great pity that our friends across the border do not receive more ministerial co-operation and more ministerial recognition from Ministers of this House.

One of the things I notice here is that fees will be paid to members of the council. I think we should start at the bottom. We are not paying our artistes a sufficient fee. I am personally aware of at least one of the greatest traditional violinists in this country, who was invited to come down here from West Donegal and spend two nights here, for the lucrative fee of three guineas. It would not pay his bus fare—never mind the other necessities for which he will have to disburse in the city here. I would like to see higher fees paid to our artistes and some recognition should be given to the expenses incurred by them in coming here. Furthermore, when they do come, some scope should be given to their imagination and the programme which they must broadcast should not be mapped out for them. I have already referred to a traditional violinist. When he did come here on a former occasion he was very anxious to broadcast some very old Irish traditional airs which never have been broadcast before, but he was prevented by the officials from doing so. They said: "You must confine your programme to certain reels and jigs and other airs of that sort." Some scope should be given to these artistes to display initiative in this respect.

Deputy Cogan has spoken at considerable length on various matters, but there is one aspect which I think he did not touch, that is, broadcasts to schools. I would like to see more co-operation between the Minister for Education and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, whereby wireless sets would be installed in every school in the country and at least one half-hour per day would be given to school broadcasts, be they educational or otherwise. I think it would be to the advantage of the children and that it would also be a method of keeping the children in touch with everyday affairs. I would respectfully and seriously suggest to the Minister that he should consider that matter and have a school half-hour each day, if possible, as they have in other countries.

Again, when the Dáil is in session, and when questions are asked of Ministers between 3 and 4 o'clock or 3 and 3.30, these questions would be of general interest to the citizens and it might be possible to arrange that that part of the proceedings be broadcast. After all, there is a résumé of it given each evening at 10.30.

A Deputy

There is a big number of questions.

Mr. O'Donnell

I agree, but possibly a half-hour could be given to it. That would be of some interest to the citizens. It would be a method of letting the electorate know what we are doing here and that the affairs of State are receiving attention. The Minister should know whether it is possible or not. It might be a cheap method of entertainment; at least it would not cost the State a lot.

I think it was my colleague from Donegal, Deputy Brennan, who advocated here the other day more rural entertainment on the wireless. I thoroughly agree with him. Local concerts and plays down the country are as much worthy of being broadcast to the State as the shows of various artistes here in the city. I would like to see the Minister do as his predecessor did some years ago, when he broadcast Question Time from different parts of the country. Local entertainments should be broadcast from various districts. It would be good for the local artistes and would be an encouragement to them. It may also be a method of spotting talent which otherwise would never be heard.

I have referred on many occasions to the need for the broadcasting of fishing news. Each evening after the ordinary news at 6.30 and again at 10.10, we hear the greyhound racing results from Harold's Cross or Shelbourne Park or somewhere else and the quotations on the Stock Exchange. These things interest certain people, but there are other people who have interests also. One of the things I would like to hear broadcast each evening is the fish landings, the supply and the numbers of fish landed on our eastern, southern and western seaboard. Not only is it of interest to the fishermen themselves but it tells a prospective market where there is a possible glut in fish, it gives the fish dealer an opportunity of going to the ports where fish have just been landed or are about to be landed; and again it may open up other markets for the fishermen. It is something that should be considered. I asked questions about it during the last few years since I came in here. Whatever the obstacle is, I think it could be overcome. I would appeal to the Minister to do something in that respect.

I hope that when this council has been set up, if the Oireachtas accepts the Estimate, the members will not be bound by red tape, that they will have some opportunity to display initiative, and that they will be able to consult the various interests in the country regarding the type of material which may be of advantage and of interest to rural Ireland as well as to the towns and cities generally.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Fortunately, this debate on Radio Éireann is usually a very chatty sort of discussion and I like to think that every year the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, whoever he might be, does really listen to the speeches of Deputies and does take a note of what they say and that after considering the comments, he endeavours to sift the different criticisms, for the general advancement of Radio Éireann. I think the present Minister has done that. As I said last year and say again now, he has displayed a tremendous interest in Radio Éireann, for the good of Radio Éireann.

Evidence of the progress of Radio Éireann is displayed in the discussion that we have had here this year. All the signs are that the service is improving. There was a time, even in my short experience in the House, when there was very sharp criticism and considerable abuse regarding the way in which Radio Éireann was conducted. We have had, I think, in the majority of the speeches on this occasion, more actual praise than criticism. That is in itself a tribute to the Minister, his officials and all those who participate in running the radio station. Those who criticise—and we have a fair number of critics of Radio Éireann still in the country—fail to appreciate the limited resources that the Government or the Department have for running a station which, whether we like it or not, is to the ordinary man in the street in strict competition with the radio services of other countries and, in particular, with the radio stations in Great Britain. These people fail to appreciate the fact that the B.B.C. has, one might say, unlimited resources compared with Radio Éireann. They have a home service, a light programme and a third programme. Radio Éireann is in the unfortunate position of having to compete not with any one of these but with all three.

I should like to describe Radio Éireann as a station combining all the qualities of the home service, the light programme and the third programme. People who criticise Radio Éireann fail to appreciate the lack of facilities there. I was in the radio station on two or three occasions and was amazed at the small space they had in which to operate with their limited facilities.

Any remarks I make here to-night could not really be described as criticisms. They are more in the nature of suggestions which, I trust, the Minister will consider because they are suggestions I hear from time to time from the people with whom I mingle. Before I deal with these criticisms or suggestions, might I say a word or two about the establishment by the Mini- of a Broadcasting Council?

I, like other Deputies, welcome the establishment of that council but there are some questions I would like to put to the Minister with regard to the actual functioning of the council and the personnel of the council. I fail to see how the Minister's task is going to be easy when he says that this Broadcasting Council will act in the nature not only of an advisory body but an executive body as well and that the Minister will be legally responsible. I assume he will be legally responsible to the Dáil on questions which arise from time to time with regard to the general working of Radio Éireann.

Will that necessarily mean that his invariable reply to questions in this House in regard to Radio Éireann programmes will be that this was done by the council, that he was sorry he could not take any responsibility, that the members of this House approved of the setting up of this council and that, therefore, we must leave the arrangement of programmes and the selection of this, that and the other thing to these five men in whom he has placed his trust? I think, to that extent, Deputy Cogan may be right when he says that we may be divesting ourselves of a responsibility and a function that we have had up to this.

I have no doubt but that the five persons whom the Minister has nominated to be members of this council are all good men in themselves but I cannot reconcile the entertainment which Radio Éireann is to give to the public of this country with such qualifications as were described by the Minister in his opening statement. One member is an insurance manager. That is how he is described. That is the only qualification we get. The next member of the council is a lecturer in economics. Another is a principal teacher. One is an archivist and has qualification in regard to the collection of folklore. The next member is a Fellow of Trinity College, Dublin, and professor of modern history.

Frankly, they will not appeal to the people who look to Radio Éireann to provide entertainment and amusement for them. There is a possibility that one of these members may have qualifications in music. It may be that another has some qualifications in drama. I know one of them, Pádraig Mac Con Midhe. He certainly has a tremendous interest in and knowledge of the G.A.A. which gets quite a lot of time on Radio Éireann. From that point of view he possibly will be tremendous help to the Minister and to the station generally but he is the only one, I should say, who would be known by a vast majority of the people.

The names of the others suggest nothing to the people in the country. I am not making any personal criticism of them. I do not know any of them intimately, but I would be pleased— and I am sure the House would be pleased—if the Minister would say what particular qualifications they had in the entertainment world. He may say they are just the same as Deputy Cowan or any Deputy in this House. From that point of view they know what they like and, consequently, what the people in general like but if they are to have executive powers I suggest that they should have some particular qualification in the field of entertainment as far as radio is concerned. An executive in any business usually has some particular qualification in respect of the business in which the company engages. Therefore, I hope that as far as these five gentlemen are concerned they have a qualification in some degree or another with regard to entertainment, music, drama and the usual things we get on the radio.

I should like to pay a small tribute to the outgoing director of Radio Éireann. As far as I and the listeners to Radio Éireann knew him as he was portrayed through the radio programmes during the time he was director he has everything that is typical of Irish life. He was a native speaker and was everything characteristic of the nation and its people. He tried to portray that over Radio Éireann.

I trust that the director who is to take up duty on the 1st January has similar qualifications. Again, I do not know the man. The first I heard of him was when the Minister announced it yesterday. I trust he has the qualifications Mr. Kelly had. I do not want to be insulting if I say that I trust he has a knowledge of the Irish language. In such an important post it would be a necessary qualification. It should be a necessary qualification inasmuch as the smallest job in the Civil Service or in local authorities demands that the man appointed should have some knowledge of Irish.

While I have said that the Minister has taken a very keen and active interest in Radio Éireann, I would not give him full marks or credit for his general approach to Radio Éireann. He dwelt at length on the point that Radio Éireann should portray the character of the Irish people and the character of the nation as a whole.

I thought it unfortunate that he should devote so much time to the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra. I appreciate his views so far as the symphony orchestra is concerned and so far as the type of music the orchestra plays is concerned. What I did not like—again, I will say for him that I am sure he did not mean it in any insulting way, nor did he attempt to dismiss it merely with a flick, although it seemed from his speech that he did—was that two or three pages of his script were devoted to the symphony orchestra and he expressed the hope that the people would, in time, through the education of the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra, become lovers of that type of music, while, in about five words, he mentioned the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. To use his own words: "The light orchestra also progresses." I thought that a very poor tribute to the conductor and members of that orchestra who have done so much for light music in this country and who have done so much for Radio Éireann in making it as popular as it is.

The Minister said that it was generally accepted that the type of music we heard from other stations in the world, these dance tunes, were a type of Anglo-Americanisation and more or less said that we would have to accept that type of music. From that, he jumped to symphony and the symphony orchestra. There is a happy medium. If the people are to appreciate the music played by the symphony orchestra, they will only be educated into a love of that type of music by such an orchestra as the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. I happen to have heard it over the week-end and I have nothing but praise and admiration for it, as other people who heard it have nothing but praise and admiration for it and for the conductor and leader of that orchestra.

In the first place, it was appreciated that these were all 100 per cent. Irishmen and that some of them were men of humble origin who had graduated from the ranks of the Army, who had been enlisted in the Army School of Music and had made their way to this light orchestra and that to them tremendous praise and credit is due. But let us get more of the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra and then possibly we will attain to that standard to which the Minister hopes we will attain when there will be a greater and more general appreciation of the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra. At the present time, there is not that appreciation of it. I do not believe that I could listen to the symphony orchestra for any more than half an hour. I would certainly go up the walls or close my ears to it after that.

I know that it is good music, but I cannot appreciate it yet, and I would go so far as to say that 80 per cent. of our people cannot appreciate that type of music yet. We know that it is good music, but the only way the people can get an appreciation of it is by being gradually trained or educated into a love of that type of music. The Minister should do a little more with regard to getting these two orchestras around the country. I know he has done it and that it is being done at present. So long as he keeps that up and so longs as he sends the light orchestra, in particular, around the country, so long will the people have a greater appreciation of him and of Radio Éireann.

I cannot boast of knowing a lot about music and I cannot boast of being able to play any instrument, but like ordinary Deputies here I know what I like. I think I would be speaking for a lot of people in my home town and in my constituency if I reiterated what I said by inference in a parliamentary question yesterday, that the standard of music presented in the commercial programmes from Radio Éireann is at about the lowest possible level—with Sugar Bush and Liberty Bell and all these low dance tunes that convey nothing except rhythm, with the rhyming of “blue” and “new” and “flew” and “do” and all that sort of thing. I do not know if there is a big number of people who like that type of music. I heard the Minister last Saturday night speaking about the low standard of music and I think he quoted what I thought was a very bad example— the Hospitals Requests Programme. It is, so far as music is concerned, far above the programmes presented on the other days of the week. The Minister gave that example to suggest that that is the type of music the people wanted, but the type of music that is requested and played on the Hospitals Requests Programme is of a fairly decent standard. It is mixed —you will get Liberty Bell and Sugar Bush or Sugar Puss, or whatever the name is. You will get these dance tunes, but you will also get ballet music and military airs and generally you will get a good mixture, but you will not get what you get on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays— these tin cans rattling all the time, no music but merely rhythm.

Captain Cowan

The strange thing is that the people seem to like it.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

No. These programmes are not by request.

Captain Cowan

They are sponsored.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I should like the Minister to enforce a somewhat stricter type of censorship because it is not the general type of music the people want. As an example, I give the Hospitals' Trust Programme, an admirable programme. If the other commercial programmes were on the same lines as the programmes we get from 10.30 p.m. to 11 p.m., I think the standard of the lunch time programmes from Radio Éireann would be very much higher indeed.

I should like to see local musical productions recorded. It has been done in my own town. I referred to this matter on other occasions, and the Minister explained the difficulties, but in Wexford last week, on each occasion on which an opera was played, a recording was made by Radio Éireann in an effort to get the best recording for purposes of re-broadcasting at some future date. I suggest that even in respect of this city, and the different musical societies here, there are many productions worthy of recording and re-broadcasting to the rest of the country. I have no particular society in mind, but I can mention the Rathmines and Rathgar Musical Society, the Dublin Operatic Society, and the Old Belvedere Society. There are many other societies in production from time to time in Dublin, and in places like Roscrea, Galway and Cork. These are admirable productions which the people of the country should hear. Owing to difficulties of travel to Dublin and the limited resources of the artistes, it is rather difficult to bring all these folk to Dublin, and many real Irish artistes never have an opportunity of being heard from Radio Éireann in this country, in Britain, or in other countries.

In co-operation with the Minister for Defence, the Minister ought to try to see that the No. 1 Army Band performs regularly from Radio Éireann. I do not know much about military bands in other countries. I can listen only to the Foden Works Band, the Black Dyke Mills Band and the other different bands we hear from the B.B.C., but we will all agree that the No. 1 Army Band and the Garda Band compare very favourably with any of these. The No. 1 Army Band is, I am sure, at the disposal of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and the people, outside Dublin especially, would like it much more often.

Deputy O'Donnell, I think, spoke about country artistes. I think it is generally recognised now that, unless one has made a reputation on the Dublin stage, it is practically impossible to get into Radio Éireann to perform. I appreciate what the Minister said about a person who was good in a parish hall or who could recite well or mimic well in a drawingroom not being able to do so well in Radio Éireann, but there are many people who can act, sing and recite well who will never get an opportunity of performing in Radio Éireann because they cannot afford, first of all, to come up to Dublin to receive an audition and, in the second place, if they are accepted after the audition, to come to perform because the expense is too heavy. They must travel from Cork, Wexford, Kerry, Galway or Donegal to Dublin, pay their rail or bus fare, pay for a night in an hotel and for the return journey —that merely for an audition, and if they are accepted and given an engagement they must do the same thing again for a few guineas. It just does not pay them, and for that reason the artiste outside Dublin does not get a reasonable chance of displaying his or her talents on Radio Éireann. I would suggest that auditions should be held in provincial towns. I think it has been done.

Mr. Childers

It is done, definitely.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I do not think it is widespread.

Mr. Childers

It is a question of means.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

It may be a reasonable excuse that the resources of the Department are such that it would not be possible to have auditions as frequently as would be desired, but I would urge the Minister to see that Radio Éireann officials attend to other cities and towns in order to get the best the talent of the country outside Dublin can offer.

I should like to mention the bad timing of programmes. A programme which is scheduled to end at a quarter past eight stops at 12 minutes past eight. There is a lull. Nobody knows whether the wireless has broken down or whether Radio Éireann has broken down. There should be a better effort by technicians and artistes to see that there is regular timing, and if there is not regular timing, to see that we have some sort of sound, some noise, whether it be a piano, drums, marching feet or bells, but no lull even for 15 seconds.

I have another complaint. I noticed last week that there is one particular announcer who has the habit of swishing the papers and it is heard distinctly over the radio. That is not heard from the B.B.C. I do not hold up the B.B.C. as the perfect example but it is not heard in other circles.

Captain Cowan

Queer things are heard there from time to time.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I am not much interested in the B.B.C., but I want Radio Éireann to have the best possible. If this point were attended to it would give people a better impression of Radio Éireann.

Too much time is lost on the Hospitals Requests Programme. Twenty per cent. more records could be played. Much too much time is lost in reading out, not names—nobody objects to names as they are necessary—but these little messages from "You Know Who", that fellow who gets all the records on the programme. Too much time is lost on chatter in between records. There should be an endeavour to cut out the messages. If there is a request from Deputy Cowan for Deputy MacCarthy, that is the message. He does not need to send love and kisses, as that takes up too much time. The Minister should consider giving more time to the Hospitals Requests Programme. There are many unfortunate people in sanatoria and other hospitals who have been waiting weeks and months, and have given up the attempt to have a record played for them. The B.B.C. devotes four or five hours per week to "Family Favourites". I would urge the Minister to devote much more time to this programme than from 2 to 2.30 on one day per week. If he could give even twice that time to the unfortunate people who are in hospital for a long period, it would indeed be a great consolation and boon to them.

I have advocated this since 1946, and no Minister has yet listened. Again I make the plea in the hope that the Minister might on this occasion. I would ask him to change the time of the lunch time programmes, and have them from 12.30 till 2 p.m. I do not know how it is in Dublin or what time the majority of workers go home to lunch, but down the country they start at 12.30, and in rural areas I think they start at 12. If they start at 12 they have to be back at 1 o'clock when Radio Éireann is just starting.

In my town they come from work at 12.30 and start back about 1.10. They get 10 minutes of the programme. I wonder for what class of people the programme from 2 to 2.30 is designed. For the housewife I suppose, but she is probably out in the kitchen then washing up after the dinner. The businessman starts to go back about 2 o'clock. I do not know what time civil servants start. I do not see the reason for the programme between 2 and 2.30 as people are working then or on their way back to work and I would suggest that the Minister should seriously consider changing that time.

As far as local complaints are concerned, reception in Wexford is atrocious. I do not know whether it is peculiar to Wexford or not but it is well-nigh impossible during parts of the later evening to hear Radio Éireann at all. What with distortion and interference from other stations people give up and turn to some other station. I would like the Minister to investigate that complaint in respect of Wexford because it has been very widespread during the last few weeks.

Lastly I would like to suggest that the Minister should get a better recording of the National Anthem— even though there has been an improvement. Somebody recently suggested that the Hallé Orchestra should make a recording of the National Anthem for Radio Éireann.

Mr. Childers

It is on its way.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I would merely like to suggest that we should not depend on John Barbirolli and the Hallé Orchestra but leave it to our own light orchestra. I have heard their rendering of the National Anthem and to hear it was inspiring. It did what a National Anthem should do to the people of a country.

Mr. Childers

A new recording of the National Anthem is being processed.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

By whom?

Mr. Childers

By the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra.

Mr. MacCarthy

In the world to-day the radio is recognised to be of such tremendous value and influence that I think this House should give very great consideration to anything that might be done towards the improvement of our presentations on the radio.

In the first place, facing, as we are now, a new system of control which will be followed, I am sure, by reorganisation, I appeal that many of its best features in the past will be retained. There is so much diversity of opinion amongst those who have spoken in this debate that it is quite obvious that the sooner we have alternative programmes the better. In Cork we are building a new school of music in which Radio Éireann is being incorporated, with general advantage so far as the South is concerned at any rate.

The first thing which I think we ought to consider, without being exclusively or too strictly obviously so, is that our radio should be national and recognisable as such when anybody tunes in to the station to listen to its music or its general features. It should not be merely a case of waiting for the tinkling dulcet notes of O'Donnell Abú to know that we are tuned into Radio Éireann. It is most important that in its national features we should have the language in its various aspects, our national pastimes, our traditional and dance music, historical features and past and present-day dramatic presentations. We could also have informative features such as notes on our principal industry—agriculture— gardening, household hints and all the rest which would form a particular feature and be fitted in at a particular time. Beyond that, we may have from time to time commemorative productions. We could have gramophone records of some of our best singers as, for instance, the late John McCormack, Miss Margaret Burke Sheridan and others. We could have musical presentations by our pianists and our best musicians. As well as all that, however, something else is required.

Much criticism has been levelled in respect of the employment of too many foreign musicians on our symphony orchestra. I have seen some figures in that regard and my view is that we had to start somewhere. Unless symphonic music is perfectly rendered it becomes absolutely absurd and nobody will listen to it. We must either have perfect symphonic music or else we must cut it out altogether. A start had to be made. I understand that leaders of particular sections of the orchestra had, from the start, to be brought in, at least temporarily. I think the result has been very good indeed. Some people say that there is not a full appreciation of symphonic music in this country but everything goes to prove the contrary. When the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra travelled to various cities throughout the country, though the halls did not fill the first time they were filled on the second and subsequent visits and there could not be a higher measure of appreciation and feeling of national pride in the Radio Éireann orchestra's playing of symphonic music.

The light orchestra is very good. Nobody can but praise it. Of course, it has a second advantage, namely, that it would be an excellent training ground for musicians who would subsequently be promoted to the main orchestra. From that point of view it would be excellent. In order to provide our own native musicians who, we all desire, should predominate in all these orchestras and presentations from Radio Éireann, co-operation with our schools of music, our various national festivals throughout the country, the Oireachtas, feiseanna, and so forth, might from time to time provide the talent that we require. We all know that we are as impulsive in that way as we are in other ways and that our people are very often anxious to get on the stage or on the air before their training is perfect, but I think beginners should be encouraged. The development of local talent and the presentation of what is being done in various parts of the country should be looked into and organised. As a nation, we are not all serious at all times: a little bit of fun is diverting and entertaining and people look for it. Once it is of the right standard I think that it will be very much appreciated.

The schools programme is a matter that should be looked into. Though what is being done is excellent, a little more in that regard would, perhaps, be of considerable national advantage. The provision of radios in the schools is a very vexed question. Some people might like it very much but there is always the danger in a school that for half an hour before the programme the children are watching for it and that for half an hour after it they are thinking of it with the result that they may learn very little else unless, of course, the programme is put on at the end of the day when the children are tired or are getting tired. It is all very fine to say these things but when you come down to the practical results of these matters they are really not so good as perhaps people would think, looking at them in an objective or abstract way. We ought to think of it very seriously. The radio is principally for the provision of information and entertainment in the home. Children at home can, in their own times, participate in whatever information or enjoyment is given by these programmes and learn from them in a reasonable way.

I am not at all enamoured of sponsored programmes. You might as well be listening in to the Bahama Islands as to some of the records they play at these programmes. If people want to advertise Irish goods to the Irish people they should not try to do so through the medium of foreign music. If their broadcast is for somewhere else then that is another matter. In all these things I think there should be a proper balance. Whilst I do not, as I said at the start, look for any kind of exclusiveness, I think our own national characteristics should be featured predominantly in those various programmes. Deputy Corish praised the Hospitals' Trust presentations. I have no hesitation in admitting that I would not listen to that programme in 99 cases out of 100. The programme has no national feature whatsoever except once in the blue moon. Generally speaking, there is a kind of ragtime swing about the whole presentation that does not appeal to me or to anybody who looks for something more national in character.

We have, as I said, productions of various kinds embracing various features of entertainment and instruction. In that respect, I think, generally speaking, there is no great reason for complaint. Perhaps more could be said and more information given in regard to agriculture and matters of that kind which would appeal to the people of the country. Talks might also be given on industrial development and what is expected from the people in the encouragement and promotion of such movements. Generally speaking, I think all that is required is to get competent people to speak and to vary the programmes, not to have the same people broadcasting all the time. There are other people with ideas, and while some features of a permanent nature are useful, the programmes should be more varied and different people should be asked to contribute. In general, I think some progress has been made in recent years. Certainly there has been progress from the musical point of view. I would say that, in the sphere of drama, the same progress has not been made. I know that it is difficult to provide for these matters. Of course we can all talk, but when the directors are faced with the task of getting the right material, it is not so easy to do so. The trial system is sometimes quite useful, but at other times it involves considerable delay. Generally speaking, I think we can compliment the Minister on what he is doing. I know only one member of the new comhairle. He is a very competent man, a man who has been connected with the language movement, who has been interested in the history and national pastimes of our country, and I am sure he will be of considerable advantage as a member of the new body. He comes from Ulster also, a fact which makes his selection all the more commendable, inasmuch as it symbolises the unity of the country, in its distinctive features and traditions.

The question of traditional music is a very vexed one, of course. We have not very many compositions which would call for more than individual production, and it is not easy to get musicians up here to Dublin. The question of expense is involved, but some effort should be made, at the same time, to encourage those people who have preserved and kept alive the traditions typical of our land.

I think nothing more of a useful nature can be said on this debate which has gone on now for a considerable time. We have only to hope that the new body will reorganise the programmes, retaining, as I suggested, the best features of the existing programmes and that with goodwill all round suitable encouragement will be provided from the radio for our own people in the development of their national characteristics. I hope that the short-wave station will be established to cater for the scattered members of our race who have been looking forward to it for years. Those who have gone into the mission fields and entered on various walks of life throughout the world are looking forward to the day when they can hear from their own land something to revive the memories which inspired them in the past and which will keep them, in their various spheres of activity, in contact with their people in the homeland.

Dr. Esmonde

The function of Radio Éireann is to give to the people of Ireland the programmes they require. I feel that the directors of Radio Éireann have succeeded to a certain extent in fulfilling that function, but, as other Deputies have mentioned, they have a rather difficult problem in that there is only one station available, and it often happens, when there are limited facilities, and when you are trying to please everybody, you succeed in pleasing nobody. I do not think we can accuse Radio Éireann of that. However, there are one or two criticisms that I should like to offer—firstly, in regard to the employment of foreign artistes.

I think we are all agreed that it is highly undesirable that we should employ all these foreign artistes, so many of them particularly in the light orchestra. When musical broadcasts were first organised in this country, under the late Colonel Fritz Brase, a German, he did not import a whole lot of foreign musicians. He recognised the fact that there was a fund of musical talent latent in the Irish people and he set out to develop that talent. When his time came he handed over to other people, but I think it is a pity that his policy was not continued, that this talent was not sought out and developed on a more extensive scale. That appears to me to be the difficulty with the orchestras in this country— that the talent that is there has not been sought out by the officials, the directors or whoever is in control of Radio Éireann and utilised so as to give employment to the fullest extent to Irish musicians and artistes. I would ask the Minister to give full attention to that aspect of the matter.

I say that we should not have any foreign artistes. Surely we can form an Irish orchestra wholly consisting of an Irish personnel. If we want to bring in foreigners I admit there are certain countries—Germany and perhaps Italy—which occupy a prominent place in the world of Europe. We should employ these people only as instructors and trainers but do not let them occupy the jobs that should be occupied by Irishmen. We waited long enough to get on the air and to get our own control of the air, and let us use it for the Irish people.

I should like to say a word or two in regard to sponsored programmes. I say that with one or two exceptions, the sponsored programmes are an outrage on the Irish people. Why must we have this sort of muck, this jazz and this crooning, with no music, no rhythm and no tune? When I was out in Africa years ago I went into a native village and I heard negroes dancing and singing. That is exactly the stuff you hear to-day in these programmes that is presented as modern up-to-date music and that is put across to us in those sponsored programmes.

Captain Cowan

Are not the negroes natives of their own countries? The Deputy should not run down negroes.

Dr. Esmonde

I am not running down the negroes. I have probably mixed with more negroes than the Deputy ever did.

Captain Cowan

I have mixed with no negroes but I think they are part of the human race. We know what is happening in Kenya.

Dr. Esmonde

I am not running down the negroes. I am simply asking why we should have this negro music in Radio Éireann when we have our own national music. That is what I said.

Captain Cowan

Why should you run down the negroes?

Dr. Esmonde

If you think I am running down the negroes have it your own way or whatever way you like. To get back to the sponsored programmes, why should we not have live artistes on the sponsored programmes? There are plenty of people in the country who would be glad to earn a few pounds, if given an opportunity of contributing to these programmes. I asked the Minister a parliamentary question in regard to that matter some time ago. I think his reply was to the effect that it was a question of the difficulty of the people running the programmes paying for them: that it would cost them more to have live artistes. That may be, but one of the sponsored programmes, the Mitchelstown Creamery, can get live artistes. Why cannot these wealthy corporations which come on the air for a quarter or half an hour do the same? That point has been put to me by some of my constituents, who are keen on music and are performers themselves. They think they should be given a chance at these shows, and I agree with them.

I want to say a word on Partition. It is the object of everybody in this House and in the country who is really Irish to get rid of Partition. It is a running sore in our side. It seems to me that one way of getting rid of it would be to make its existence known to the world. One of the most powerful weapons we can use for that purpose is the radio. It should be used more than it is to stress the economic advantages which would accrue not only to Ireland but to every peace-loving nation in the world if Partition were abolished.

I may be wrong, but as well as I recollect, I think I have heard only one or two talks on the subject over the radio. As far as I know, these talks were given by the then head of the Irish Government whoever he was. There is the old saying that if you tell people a thing often enough they will absorb it and believe it. That applies particularly if you are telling them the truth.

I think that, day in and day out, we should stress this injustice to the Irish race over the radio. We have there, the opportunity of stressing it not to one or two people, but to hearers wherever the radio penetrates. I put that suggestion to the Minister. I think that many different types of people should be asked to give a talk, from different angles, on Partition. I would suggest that these talks should not be too controversial. They should follow, I think, the line of the economic and spiritual benefits that would accrue to everyone if this injustice were removed.

As a countryman, I should like to stress the need for more provincial news. The people living in the country are simple folk, and after all, there are a good many of us. This country is not just Dublin alone. There are many things we are interested in, such as fairs and markets, conditions in the different towns and districts and so on. I know, of course, there are provincial news talks. I listened to one the other evening, and it was not bad at all, but my point is that I do not think we have enough of them. When you switch on the B.B.C., you have at the end of the news, a North of England talk or a Scottish talk, a Welsh talk, a London talk or a North of Ireland talk. We should have the same on Radio Éireann. We have four provinces in Ireland, and we could have a talk on each on different nights.

I also suggest that we should have more agricultural news on Radio Éireann. We are all depending on agriculture. We are getting interested in agriculture nowadays, and the majority of us live by it. I think the Minister should pay attention to that.

I agree with the point that was stressed by Deputy Corish about the lunch time intervals. The normal time for the agricultural worker to go to dinner is 12 o'clock and to return at 1 o'clock. I do not think a start is made in Radio Éireann until 12.30 or, in some cases, 1 o'clock. I would ask the Minister to give favourable consideration to the suggestion that the lunch time intervals should be from 12 o'clock to 2.30.

I should like to say a word about the new arrangements. My own personal view is that they are good arrangements. I think it is a good idea that the Minister is retaining jurisdiction over the company or board which he is forming. A number of us Deputies suffer a good deal in this House when we try to get Córas Iompair Éireann to do something or to find out something about it. I do not think we want the same state of affairs to apply to Radio Éireann. Normally, we get an opportunity only once a year of having a debate like this, so that it will be nice to feel that we can still make suggestions, by way of questions, and will be able to get an answer to them, and not be told by the Minister that he has no function in the matter.

I would like to say, in conclusion, that I think the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has put a lot of work into this. I think he has done his best. He has looked at the thing from a sensible point of view. I think he is an efficient Minister, and I may even go so far as to say that I think he is a courteous Minister. I have always found him so. I wish him luck with his new arrangements. I also want to congratulate him on the way in which, for the first time since I entered Dail Éireann, he has formed his board. I think I am right in saying that it is a non-political board and is representative of every political walk of life in the country. I hope other Ministers will take that as a precedent. I hope, when any more boards are being appointed, that the precedent of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will be followed, and that they will not be, as they were heretofore, 100 per cent. Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Corry

I am just wondering which member of the board is going to look after the agricultural side, so far as Radio Éireann is concerned. As Deputy Esmonde has rightly said, this is an agricultural country. One would think Radio Éireann was run for a section of the people and not for all the people. I do not know where Radio Éireann gets its weather prophet. We call him "Old Moore" down the country. There is an artiste who comes out every night during the Hospitals' Trust Programme and the country people call him "Mick the Liar." For a long period this year there was fairly keen competition between "Mick the Liar" in the Hospitals' Trust and "Jack the Liar" who was employed to give weather forecasts for the farmers. Neither of them was ever right.

At least one half-hour every night should be devoted to lectures on agricultural subjects. I would ask for an hour but that might be asking for too much for 90 per cent. of our people. If we have to pay the piper we should get some return. We do not want all the so-called entertainment. The Minister should get some of our agricultural experts from the Department and from the sugar company to give lectures or talks for half an hour each night on agricultural subjects from 8 o'clock to half-past eight.

Captain Cowan

Would the country people listen to these lectures?

Mr. Corry

They would listen to them far quicker than they listen to the present programmes. I hear people describe Radio Éireann as a secondrate edition of an English music hall. There is another programme we should have on the radio. The door seems to be closed and locked against a certain period of our history. It is all very hush-hush. We no longer hear the patriotic songs that used to be sung long ago. We hear very few of them over the radio. The Minister should look up the statistics and compare the time devoted to these with the time devoted to other things.

Sometimes I find myself in the unfortunate position of acting as a member of an interview board interviewing applicants for certain positions. The applicants come along, and one asks them a question about recent Irish history and about the individuals who played a prominent part in that history. One feels rather strange when one asks a young lady from West Cork: "Who was Michael Collins?" and she pauses for ten minutes and replies: "He was a poet, sir." I got that answer from a young lady who was born only 12 miles from the place where Michael Collins was born.

Mr. W. Murphy

Is it possible Deputy Corry would mention his name at all?

Mr. Corry

I have as much respect for Michael Collins as the Deputy has.

Mr. W. Murphy

I am surprised at Deputy Corry mentioning his name at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

Michael Collins does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

A little of the history of that period should be given over the radio, together with some details of the lives of the notable figures who were prominent at that time.

Captain Cowan

They will not allow it into the school books.

Mr. Corry

Apparently it is shut out of the school books. I suggest that a short talk on each Minister in the first Dáil would be no harm and would provide some education in the national life and the national figures for the youth of this country. I suggest that talks should be given on notable military leaders, notable events and notable operations during that period. I would like to hear a talk on General Tom Barry. It would be no harm if half an hour were devoted to the Crossbarry ambush. We could have half an hour on Ballinalee General MacEoin. We could have half an hour devoted to the exploits of General Seán Moylan. That would supply the present deficiency in the primary schools.

We have to pay the piper and we want something Irish in our radio programmes. We want something of educational benefit to our young people, something to remind them of the sacrifices that were made by the men who have gone before them—the men who got our freedom for us. It would be better to devote half an hour to that rather than to the negro music about which Deputy Dr. Esmonde spoke. It is disheartening to experience the ignorance displayed by young people of events that took place here 30 and 35 years ago. Part of the Radio Éireann programme should be devoted to enlightening that ignorance.

Our exiles would prefer a programme of the type I have suggested. Such programmes would be superior to the sponsored programmes about which Deputy Dr. Esmonde spoke. They would have a more beneficial result because they would remind our exiles that Ireland was still there and that they were not merely listening to a rehash of the B.B.C.

Mr. Childers

We are doing our best to get that material.

Mr. Corry

I have very little time to listen to the radio but I must admit that I am not edified by what I hear. I will be quite frank about it. I never hear what I am looking for, even if I do listen for a short time to "Mick the Liar" every night.

Captain Cowan

Has he ever given a winner?

Mr. Corry

I travel around a bit from house to house every night and invariably I see the radio lying there idle until the night comes when "Around the Fire" is on. That programme has more interest for the ordinary country people than all the other programmes that are lashed out night after night. It is time we had a change. On behalf of the agricultural community I must insist on at least half an hour each night being devoted to agricultural matters. We are entitled to that.

I see no reason why we would not get it. You have very interesting lectures given from time to time in this country which would be of benefit to the agricultural community.

I also suggest that we should go a little further with regard to dealing with our later history. Even if we were divided from 1922 onwards, I do not think there is any section of our people to-day who would not like to hear of the sacrifices which were made by the men who did their part for this country during that period. It would help immensely towards getting a better feeling generally in the country, or at least getting what in my opinion the young people require more than anything else, a bit of nationality into them.

Mr. W. Murphy

All the radio stations in the world could not do that now.

Mr. Corry

I am more than surprised to hear any man from the Banner County making a statement of that kind.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Corry should be allowed make his speech.

Mr. W. Murphy

It is much better to forget that.

Mr. Corry

I make the suggestion that that would help to make Radio Éireann more popular in this country. After all, we have to put up with a lot of what we hear on the radio from time to time and we will not be like the unfortunate fellow I heard of after the last general election who, when he heard the winding up of the proceedings in the Dáil, got the radio and fired it out of the window. We have to put up with the things that we hear over the radio at times and to be satisfied with them. I think, however, that the programmes could be a little more national and that what I have suggested could be done over the radio to the national advantage of those who are paying the piper.

Mrs. Rice

I wish to congratulate the Minister on his attempt to improve the standard of the Radio Éireann programmes, an attempt which will be welcomed by every listener in the country. I was particularly interested in the speech of Deputy Corish who expressed my opinions far better than I could. I regret, however, that the Minister did not think of including a woman on the advisory body. I did not hear any of the Deputies refer to that. After all, there are many women in rural Ireland whose only source of entertainment is the radio, especially those who are living along the western coast and in the lonely parts of the country. If the Minister could even now appoint a woman on that advisory body, she would be able to plan suitable programmes for these women. I am not particularly interested in the women in the cities and the towns as they have other sources of entertainment. But a woman who understands women's life in the country, particularly a housewife, could plan very interesting talks, instruction in home crafts which are long dead to these women and other matters which would be an inspiration to them, especially the younger ones. Good musical items of course could be interspersed through them. I do not want a programme like Mrs. Dale's Diary or anything like that, but something which would be truly national and a reflection of the days that are gone. If at all possible, I would be deeply grateful to the Minister if he could see his way even at this late hour to include such a woman on the advisory body. I am sure there are plenty of women who could fill that post very well. It would be a sad reflection on the country if we had not an educated woman who would carry out these duties just as efficiently as any other member of the board. I hope the Minister will consider my suggestion.

I do not wish to say anything further because everything I would have said has already been said. If there has been criticism, I am sure the Minister will take it in the spirit in which it was offered. We all want to have a truly national radio station. If anybody does not like the programmes broadcast, they have other stations to which they can turn. Our people have suffered over a long period and now that we have a radio station of our own it should express our own sentiments and the sentiments of those who suffered and died to bring freedom to this country.

Captain Cowan

I have been tempted after listening to the debate this evening to make a few observations in regard to the matter before the House. First of all, I think the Minister in his experiment, because that is what it is, of setting up this new board has made a really genuine effort to get a board that will do successful work in regard to Radio Éireann. I looked over the names of the members he has appointed and I endeavoured to see the reasons behind the appointments and I came to the conclusion in a general way that he had done a very good job in selecting this particular board. I do not think that any board composed of ordinary human beings could provide a radio service such as Deputies who have spoken in this debate would appear to require. I know that if they did provide what has been advocated by some Deputies the number of listeners to Radio Éireann would considerably decrease.

Radio Éireann is not just entirely a medium for amusement, nor is it entirely a medium for education. It has other duties. It must provide up-to-date news in such a way that listeners will turn to Radio Éireann to get the latest news served up in the best possible way. I think it would be a mistake if the board should consider that Dáil Éireann insisted that they should provide nothing except the highest class of music and provide nothing except what we in a particular phase of our existence considered to be national. This nation has lived for many centuries and the songs and the dances we have had in the last 30 or 40 years are not the songs or the dances we had 400 years ago or 1,400 years ago. The generation that has grown up as we have and that is beginning to grow old is inclined to think that the songs we had in our youth are the only national songs and nothing else should be given. This nation is growing up like everything else, and when I interrupted Deputy Dr. Esmonde in his reference to negroes——

Dr. Esmonde

On a point of explanation, I did not refer to negroes. I referred to negroid music. That is all I referred to.

Captain Cowan

The Deputy referred to the negroes that he saw himself with his own two eyes dancing somewhere in mid-Africa.

Dr. Esmonde

I referred to the music I heard.

Captain Cowan

It was a typical reference to the negro as being something low, something that is not part of the human race. That was what I objected to. I wonder what Deputy Dr. Esmonde will do when he goes to Heaven and has to rub shoulders with these negroes and Chinese.

Mr. Morrissey

He will not go through the medium of Radio Éireann.

Captain Cowan

He will have to rub shoulders with them, and I am sure they will enjoy themselves there with their ordinary negro dances and their negro music. I do not know how things are up there, but I am quite sure people can enjoy themselves whether they are negroes or Chinese.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

What about Martin Corry and the Formosan?

Captain Cowan

I did feel that if we were to eliminate what is known as the sponsored programme during the lunch interval, we would be eliminating something that is making Radio Éireann successful. The very fact that our young boys and young girls sing those songs to which Deputy Corish specially referred to-night does not make them any less national.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Hear, hear!

Captain Cowan

They are just as good Irishmen and Irishwomen as this country ever produced. I think it is wrong for any Deputy like Deputy Murphy from Clare to suggest that, from the national point of view, there has been gross deterioration in this nation.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The Deputy does not mean to say I suggested that?

Captain Cowan

No, Deputy Murphy. I am satisfied from what I see of the young people of to-day that they are as good and perhaps a lot better than some of the generations that have gone before. If they want to enjoy the music which is enjoyed by civilised nations all over the world, we cannot stop them. No amount of talk here will stop them. If we do not provide that for them on Radio Éireann they will switch over and listen-in to some other station. We cannot censor the people's lives in that way. They made some effort to do it in the dictator countries, I understand, but it was not successful. It cannot be done.

There is one very peculiar thing about a sponsored programme. I understand the people sponsoring the programme buy time from Radio Éireann and they buy a certain amount of time for the purpose of increasing sales of their particular commodities. The only way they increase sales is by having a large audience and the way to get the largest audience is to put on what the largest audience requires. It is not lectures they want at that hour, nor is it some of our old songs however much we may like them, nor is it some of our drama. They want the modern stuff. By the radio itself and by the rapid improvement in communications, the world is being brought much closer together and what the youngsters in Chicago enjoy to-day the youngsters in Germany, Italy or Ireland will enjoy to-morrow. We must realise that.

There has been a reference to our political broadcasts. I agree with speakers who have suggested that the political broadcasts ought to be live broadcasts and that Deputies of this House representing different points of view ought to have an opportunity of expressing those points of view over Radio Éireann from time to time. Now the Minister, since he became Minister, has made an effort to provide a political commentary on a Saturday evening. I must say it has been exceptionally well done, but what I found about it was that it was too well done, that the commentator, in an effort to be fair to all sides of the House, put up an argument for a particular side that was much better than the side itself had put forward in the House.

General MacEoin

Hear, hear!

Captain Cowan

Through the competence of the commentator, through his real desire to be fair to everybody, people have got an impression that was not a true or correct impression of some of the debates and the discussions that took place here. I would rather hear a speaker representing a point of view putting that particular point of view himself rather than have it put much better for him by an able man who has been appointed or selected to give the commentary.

Mr. Morrissey

Are you not inflicting enough suffering on the people without wishing that on them?

Captain Cowan

Perhaps Deputy Morrissey is right. It might be suffering but it would be definitely educational.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy believes, of course, that we should all suffer alike.

Captain Cowan

I do not put it that way but if Deputies had to come on the radio and give a 15-minute talk, at least they would prepare their brief or get someone to prepare it for them. They would make a genuine effort to put their case across as best they could. The people of the country are intelligent though some people think from time to time they are not. They would be able to see those putting forward the best case. They would be able to appreciate the value and importance of particular Deputies in this House who were chosen by their own Party to speak. Britain does that. It is a very welcome feature of the British radio that I should like to see introduced here.

More time should be devoted to broadcasting. There should be more programmes. I would suggest that the morning programme, which was very sensibly started during the newspaper strike, should be extended until 10 a.m. There would be a general desire for that.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Captain Cowan

The people generally would welcome that extension in the morning. It would be especially welcomed by hospital patients. I should like to see the evening programme extended until midnight. In some parts of the country the people go to bed early but in other parts of the country and in the cities and towns people like to remain up until midnight. I would suggest a half hour of music or some other programme between 11.30 and 12, finishing with a news summary which would give events which may have happened since the previous news bulletin. People would like to have the latest news before going to bed.

I was tempted to intervene in this debate only because of some of the statements that were made. I agree in a general way that our radio station must be a national instrument, an instrument for the purpose of promulgating and propagating national culture. That can be done while at the same time giving to the general public up-to-date music, as hot as possible, informative discussions, lectures on matters of importance. It is unfortunate, as Deputy Corry said, that a phase in our history of 30 years or so ago is apparently taboo in our school books, broadcasts and newspapers generally. There may be some reason for that, some underlying motive that prevents us having an up-to-date history. It is unfair to blame young people if they do not know the names of the heroes of 30 or 40 years ago, whose exploits were very familiar to us. We should not be surprised. because we are the people who are responsible for that ignorance. We have thrown a cloak as it were over the period from 1916 on. I do not know why that is done. That is a most interesting period of Irish history.

The records of the events of that time should be handed down to the present and future generations. As has been said to-night, the generation that grew to manhood 30 years ago fought against many obstacles. It is only right that those obstacles should be made known so that there would be a greater appreciation of the heroes of that particular period. As a result of this debate, perhaps the council and the Minister will arrange to have that particular period brought to life through the means of Radio Éireann.

There has been a suggestion that the Dáil may divest itself of some responsibility. I do not see that we are divesting ourselves of responsibility at the moment. We are merely dealing with an Estimate. The Minister has told us the new machinery that he is setting up. As a Dáil, we are not divesting ourselves of any power. We will still be entitled to inquire if we want to do so, but obviously we ought to give this new council a reasonable chance and having done that, if they are a failure, this House by means of question or otherwise can deal with the situation that will arise.

Like other Deputies, I compliment the Minister on the progress he has made. I join with other Deputies in wishing every success to his new experiment.

Mr. Childers

First of all I would like to say that I very deeply appreciate the observations made by Deputies from all sides of the House of a most friendly character in connection with the new plans for Radio Éireann.

There has hardly been any measure so unanimously accepted by Deputies of all Parties as the plans I have announced on this Supplementary Estimate. I would like to thank Deputies of all sides for the fine spirit in which the debate has been carried on. I am well aware that a good number of Deputies must have been humanly tempted to make criticisms of a kind which might have discouraged the new board and it is obvious that practically every Deputy who spoke here spoke in a manner which made it clear that he wanted the new comhairle to start with a fair chance of success.

I am also glad that Deputies made it clear that, whatever their criticisms, they felt that Radio Éireann was improving and that it had improved steadily, particularly in the last year. I would not like to take credit for the improvement that has been effected, save to this extent, that I do think that the staff we have in Radio Éireann felt that there was bound to be some change. It might have been quite easily carried out by some other Minister than myself, but they felt that the change was inevitable and they gave of their best because they were aware that there was bound to be a greater measure of freedom and a greater measure of opportunity for quick innovation, which would be one of the results of the reorganisation.

We have heard a great many Deputies speak about various facets of the Radio Éireann programme and the expression "vexed question" has been used very frequently. The question of this or that aspect of the programme is "a vexed question"— that is absolutely true. To provide a programme to satisfy everybody is absolutely impossible and with a single programme those who are responsible have been doing their utmost but quite obviously it is impossible for them to succeed entirely.

When I spoke yesterday I made probably too long a speech and, as a result, there were certain things that I said that did not happen to be noticed by the public at large, and I feel that I must repeat one particular thing which was omitted from comment and pay once again a tribute to Mr. Charles Kelly, the director, who has been promoted to the position of Director of Public Savings. I would once again like to say that I appreciate that he was responsible for Radio Éireann at a time when there was evident improvement in the programme and once again I would like to wish him well in his new post.

I would like to stress again one point about which I feel very keenly, and I think my colleagues in the Government do likewise, and I believe that any Government that should succeed will feel the same—that the directorship of Radio Éireann should be considered as being independent of all political considerations and should be considered from purely the professional standpoint. The Director of Broadcasting should have the gift and the vocation of producing programmes. Wherever he comes from or whoever he is, he must be able to provide a programme in a given setting—in our case, an Irish setting. Anyone applying for that position or anyone seeking that position should be able to know in advance, as far as he can, whether he can adapt himself to provide a programme in a given setting. If we can set that tradition in the future so far as the director is concerned, I believe it will be to the tremendous advantage of Radio Éireann. As I have said, the director's position is in the nature of that of the head of a programme service in a larger organisation, and it is one requiring a peculiar and very rarely found gift.

There were one or two observations by Deputies on the proposal to raise the licence fee. In order that no one should be worried that this is another example of rather heavy taxation made inevitable at the present time, I would like to say that the increase in the fee will not be felt very severely by the people of this country. We could make quite a considerable improvement in the service by charging three farthings more in the week. We could make a still further improvement by charging 1d. or 1½d. per week, in the form of increased licence fee. I want to make it quite clear that the increase, though every penny counts, is nothing that will disturb the people in any way.

The improvement of the programme depends to a certain point on the removal of a final bottleneck in studio accommodation. There is an absolute limitation of studio accommodation available in the G.P.O. For example, it would be quite impossible for us to provide two five-hour programmes in the G.P.O., and that is the minimum requirement of a good broadcasting service for a small country like our own. For example, to provide a programme the equal of Denmark, we would have to broadcast two five-hour programmes. In order to provide anything such as Deputy Cowan suggested, playing light music from 9 to 10 o'clock in the morning until 11 o'clock at night, or meet suggestions of that kind, we would need a new building.

I would like to mention, for the benefit of Deputies, that the licence has remained at the lowest figure in Europe. There are a great many licences at 25/-, a considerable number at 28/- to 30/- and a great many at £1. We have a very small programme at the moment and we have to improve it and we believe that the people will find it is worth while paying the extra cost.

Mr. Byrne

Will that be the maximum?

Mr. Childers

I am not able to state the exact figure. It is in the region of multiples of a halfpenny—three farthings or three halfpence per week will enable us to make improvements.

Mr. Byrne

Has the Minister any estimate of what he hopes to get in? How much will 4½d. bring?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

It will be 17/6.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy had better put down a question about that point. Taking 400,000 licences at 2/6 more, it would bring in £50,000—or something of that order.

Deputy Everett, my predecessor, showed a very reasonable attitude towards the new proposals and I must pay tribute to him for his fair comment. One of the points he made was that the people of the countryside did not appreciate or like the music of the radio symphony orchestra. He spoke as though there was nothing in between light music and symphony music. The figures for music played may be divided into various categories and show a reasonable balance. I suppose that the musical experts in Radio Éireann would disagree with me or anyone who attempted to measure them, but the disagreement would not be very great. The highbrow music amounts to about a quarter of the total; the music of a light quality, such as described by Deputy Corish, played by the light orchestra and so on, would be about 56 per cent.; and the music of a very popular order, such as rather hot dance music and jazz music, would be about 19 per cent. Therefore, the musical content is fairly well balanced; there is not an excess of highbrow music and that is about all we can do in a single programme.

So far as the popularity of good music is concerned, the symphony orchestra is drawing larger and larger audiences. It is going around the country, playing in various towns, and people of every kind are coming to listen to the music. That is also the case with other orchestras visiting this country. I would like to stress the point that, if we are to have our traditional music played here in the best way possible, played in the manner pleasing to the people, we must also have symphony music.

Symphony music and traditional music go together. The people who compose arrangements for traditional music, study traditional music, collect it and arrange it in various forms are also the people who like and enjoy good symphony music. The two are complementary. It would be inconceivable that we could have that development without having our people at the same time getting to like good music, not very highbrow, complicated music but ordinary, good music. I am certain that as the years go by Deputies will find that those two things go together. If the younger generation are to appreciate our traditional music they will also appreciate good symphony music at the same time. One will be complementary to the other.

Deputy Everett also spoke on the question of television. We are beginning to examine the problem of television but there are a great many serious problems the principal one of which is the cost. A television programme costs six times that of a sound programme. For example, in Denmark they have experimental television for three hours per week. It covers only the Copenhagen area. I think there are less than 1,000 people with television sets as a result of that noteworthy experiment.

For three hours a week the present cost is in the nature of £55,000 per year. I do not think this even includes the capital and interest repayment on the equipment. That is a very large sum for only three hours a week of purely experimental television, done, I think, mostly in the studio.

A good example of the high cost of television will be seen from figures which I obtained from a foreign broadcasting company in regard to what a live television broadcast costs. An hour of an international tennis event, if televised live, would, in addition to the ordinary operating costs of the television company, amount to anything from £700 to £1,200 per hour. That is the extra cost of doing a live television of a tennis international, and it gives some idea of the very serious problem we face.

I suppose it is true that the desirability of television is a highly debatable matter. I asked any number of people of all political Parties what they thought of television. Almost as many people said it was a curse as those who said it was a blessing. It is true that there were people who said that about the motor-car in 1900. One has to look at that particular sort of observation in that light. I do not think that anybody would desire this country, even if we could afford it, to have a very extensive television service. If we could have six or seven hours' television I think it would very nearly destroy the art of conversation in this country. It might not do that, but it would certainly have a very damaging effect on the people's capacity to amuse themselves. Whatever we do in the future I trust that whoever is Minister at that time—it might not be myself—will make quite sure that it will only cover a limited field of time. I hope that if television ever comes to this country it will be part of our composite programme, the two programmes in the evening. In that programme I hope there will be some programmes televised, some to which one can listen or see, either one or the other, whichever is the most enjoyable, and some purely sound programmes. That is what I would like to see if television ever comes, but that is only a personal opinion.

Deputy Everett referred also to the short-wave station. I may have misunderstood him, but he seemed to imply that there was some decision by the last Government to use this station. I cannot find any decision at all in the records.

The position is that the short-wave conferences in Mexico and Italy were both failures from the standpoint of being able to provide us with a wavelength which could be used effectively in America. Therefore, the short-wave station will have to wait further developments. In regard to the ordinary use of the short-wave in the range where we could obtain frequencies we have secured frequencies but the interruption would be so great that the heavy cost involved in emitting transmissions would not be worth while. I will ask the new council to examine the whole question of a short-wave station to see if anything more can be done about it.

There was comment on the whole problem of the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and the employment of foreign musicians therein. I have already said that good symphony music goes with traditional music and that if one is to be encouraged so also must the other. In France, Italy and Sweden the people who are trying to revive national traditions are those who are already steeped in good music. In England, where there is a tradition more in music of an international character of a jazz variety, there has been a very considerable revival of English traditional music, and 90 per cent. of what has been done to make traditional music more entertaining to the English people has been done by people already steeped in the love of symphony music. I want to stress the importance of the Symphony Orchestra as being the apex of culture in any country. At the same time the playing of the Symphony Orchestra encourages Irish composers and should encourage young men to equip themselves to join the orchestra. It also encourages those who want to arrange traditional music for the orchestra. It is part of the programme of national resurgence.

I do not agree that we do not need to have an internationally famous orchestra. I have no limit to my ambition for the Symphony Orchestra. I am determined that we shall have one at least as good as the Hallé Orchestra. I am determined that as soon as it can be arranged the orchestra will consist of Irish musicians. That is my aim and ambition. I am not going to limit that. I should like, when the Hallé Orchestra came to Dublin, the radio orchestra to be playing in Manchester and that the two orchestras would merely exchange places. I hope also that we shall have Irish soloists singing Irish songs in Manchester.

The position in regard to the orchestra so far as employment is concerned is as follows. In 1936 there were 28 Irish musicians in the Radio Éireann Orchestra. In 1948 there were 40 and in 1952 there are 60. There has been a constant increase in the number of native Irish musicians employed. I hope that that will continue. I was left with the responsibility of trying to bring the orchestra up to a standard whereby we could consider the appointment of a permanent conductor who, as I said in my Estimate speech, would wish to make the reputation of the orchestra and his own. That was my problem. I had to take the advice of the expert officers of the music section of Radio Éireann.

I felt that the best thing I could do was to make the difficult decision to bring in some more foreign players, to arrange that most of them would become instructors for concert standard playing, that that was the best way to ensure that Irish musicians, young men, would come forward and receive their final training from these foreigners and that the foreigners would be welcome so long as the great majority of them at least were instructors, so that we would eventually be able to have an orchestra completely Irish.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Would the Minister not agree that there is a very high percentage of foreigners? Surely they would not all be instructors?

Mr. Childers

There are foreign musicians brought in as part of the permanent part of the orchestra. The recent players who have come in are on short contract and are here in a purely temporary capacity. Many of these have become instructors. It has been suggested that my statement that the training for concert standard was inadequate was an exaggeration. It is quite obvious that the Royal Irish Academy of Music would hardly welcome with open arms increased grants to enable them to provide scholarships for wind instruments if the instruction was adequate. So far as I know, they very much needed the extra grants that have been provided, £300 by the Minister for Finance and £400 by the Arts Council, for that purpose. Until that time it was very difficult to secure training up to concert standard.

In regard to the recent dismissals which have taken place, only two of those dismissed were permanently employed in Radio Éireann. The others were in a purely temporary capacity and I want to make it quite clear to the House that every orchestra employs a certain number of what are known as deputy players, players who are in a purely temporary capacity and who are aware that they are there to fill in gaps. It is the case with orchestras abroad and it is the case here, and the people concerned are well aware that, like many artistes of any kind, dramatic and otherwise, their positions are not permanent. They are aware of it in the same way as are actors in a repertory theatre company.

There must be innovation and the suggestion that people were ruthlessly thrown out from Radio Éireann in the manner which was a surprise to them, in a manner which broke up their family life, is entirely inadmissible, because we have this temporary category of players and every orchestra in a state of development has to have this category of players. Even if we had a sufficient number of trained musicians, particularly in the woodwind and brass sections, we would have to have a number of deputy players whom we could replace by other Irish players, but the effect on the people dismissed might be just as adverse. They feel distressed, naturally, by losing their chance in the premier orchestra of the country, but there is always bound to be, out of a total orchestra, a certain number of players in a purely temporary capacity. We replace a foreign musician by an Irish musician and a foreign musician by another foreign musician.

The position is that there is this special class of player. Most of these players have received rather longer appointments than is customary in other orchestras, and it may perhaps have given them an unfortunate impression of their position. So far as the observation made about two of these players having been asked to play with the Hallé Orchestra is concerned, it is perfectly true.

The Hallé Orchestra wished to fill certain positions for a concert of a special kind here and they used these players, but the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra has been employing one or other of the players who are no longer in the position they were in temporarily. That is quite natural. The fact that the Hallé Orchestra employed these people did not mean that they were wrongfully dismissed. They were merely using the same method of employing a deputy player, a temporary player.

I want to make it quite clear that every care is taken to select such foreign players as have been introduced into the orchestra and the suggestion made by a Deputy that the examining board was inadequate is completely wrong. The foreign players were appointed after the examination of the St. Cecilia Academy in Rome, an institution of European renown. I also want to make it quite clear that we have frequent auditions for Irish players, for anyone who offers himself. There are almost permanent vacancies in Radio Éireann in various parts of the orchestra for Irish players who may present themselves. The auditioning board consists of Irishmen as well as some foreigners, and, in actual fact, in the musical world it is recognised as being in some ways the best to have a foreign examiner rather than an Irish examiner, particularly in a centre like Dublin where there are so few orchestral players of any kind. We do our best to have a fair examination. The board, as I say, consists of a combination of Irish examiners and foreign examiners, but if it should consist only of a foreigner, my own belief is that, if he is an eminent musician himself, he will do his very utmost to be impartial.

General MacEoin

Why not have a completely Irish board, as I think you should have?

Mr. Childers

It would be possible to have a completely Irish board, but my belief is that there would not be any different result. It is simply a matter of whom one chooses, but I am examining the question of the auditioning board to make certain that no one can feel that there is any unfairness or prejudice in the choice of players. We had occasion some months ago to alter the programme for a concert because there was no one who could play a particular solo instrument. That is a difficult position. There is also the difficulty that, if one player is sick, it is impossible to find a player able to play the solo part in his place. We want to improve the position, particularly in the wind section.

I should like to reassure the House that there will not be any great change for the worse in the present orchestra, so far as Irish musicians are concerned. Of the 84 members of the two orchestras, less than 10 per cent. have not been offered contracts of a permanent character, and we have reached a position in which, allowing for retirements, it will not be necessary to alter the present orchestra in any material way. There will be very few changes required. We have reached a stage of stability at which we can hope that Irish musicians will come into the orchestra to replace the foreigners who are on short-term contracts, and I say that, provided the present members of the orchestra improve their standard or at least maintain their standard, there will be few changes.

I am very glad that this episode of change is over, because I am determined to have a truly Irish orchestra of international repute. I hope the Academy of Music or any other academy in this country, which feels that the financial support it has is inadequate, will seek whatever aid it can. I cannot promise them aid, but I wish them well. If they need any other financial help, I hope they will make their appeal to the Arts Council, which is the body to look after such matters. I was glad to see advertised in the papers yesterday 14 scholarships for wind instruments by the Royal Irish Academy of Music. As I have said, the foreign players are providing the instruction, and I do not know any better way of meeting the position.

The whole question of the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra is one which will have to have the attention of all music lovers in this country as a whole in the future, because it started off as an orchestra to play only over the radio system.

It has become the national orchestra of the country but the cost of it is upon the broadcasting Vote and something will have to happen regarding its finances in the next ten years.

To give a comparative example of finances, the Radio Éireann Symphony orchestra costs about £50,000 a year and our revenue is practically nil up to now from seats and so on. A provincial orchestra in one small corner of England which I do not wish to name spends £86,000 a year, but receives in fees from people who have subscribed to concerts or paid for tickets at concerts about £60,000. The balance is found by a city corporation grant of £5,000 and a grant from the British Arts Council. I should like to feel that that could happen here. If the symphony orchestra plays as perfectly as possible and achieves as high a standard as possible I believe we will be able to have greater revenue. One of the necessities is that there should be a concert hall at least in Dublin and finances should be available for the orchestra to go to the provinces and become gradually more and more popular and more and more loved by the people.

I hope at some future date to establish a paid choir in Radio Éireann —we have already a voluntary choir. In that case it would be possible to have only Irish singers or at least only resident Irish singers. A choir is not the same as an orchestra. An element of perfection is required in any symphony orchestra as is known to all Deputies who have studied good music. A choir need not have the same perfection as an orchestra and if we have a paid choir, as I hope we will, it can consist of Irish people or at least Irish residents and will contribute to the better singing of Irish songs.

I do wish to make it clear—and I am quite sure that people will agree with me—that for us to try to make Radio Éireann too Irish in character will defeat itself. A certain amount of all culture is international and a great deal of what is actually Irish culture was at one time international in character. It is an answer to a great deal of what was said to-night by people who want either more dance music, more Irish music, more Céilí music or more Irish songs, that the two aspects must go together. I am told that Celtic designs were originally Scandinavian, that they were adapted from Scandinavian designs and made Irish. I read an article the other day claiming that hurling was originally an English game but that does not prevent it from being our national game to-day.

Mr. MacCarthy

I am afraid that that could not be sustained.

General MacEoin

The Minister is saying it; leave him alone.

Mr. Childers

I am issuing a challenge to the historians on hurling. The statement was made by a Gael that we had adapted an English game and made it Irish.

Mr. MacCarthy

We had it long before the Saxons.

General MacEoin

Do not contradict the Minister.

Captain Cowan

It is an old game.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have discussions on it at the moment.

Mr. Childers

I hope that there will be a stimulating discussion on the question. This is the article I read and it actually quoted Saxon words for the game. We should have a good discussion on it in a Sunday journal. I am not saying that it was a Saxon game; I am merely giving an example of the kind of thing I mean. We do not want to accept blindly vulgar imports. At the same time if we had a certain number of foreign programmes from Radio Éireann it would stimulate our people to compose their own poetry, plays and music. Everybody knows that. I would merely stress it to show that programmes on Radio Éireann must be balanced as a whole.

Deputy Cosgrave made a very fair speech on the question of the reorganisation and I want to make it clear once again that the comhairle of Radio Éireann will be an executive comhairle and will be responsible for the overall supervision of the Radio Éireann service. As he indicated, ultimately the legal responsibility rests in myself, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of the day. The question of how far we in Dáil Éireann should interfere with Radio Éireann is one which must be left ultimately to the good taste and discrimination of the Deputies. It is most essential that Radio Éireann should be as divorced as possible from Party politics and political commentary. As Deputies have suggested, they are at liberty to ask questions in the Dáil, but it would be much better if, in the first period of the new organisation, unless something happens which to them is extremely distasteful, their questions could be addressed to the director or the comhairle.

It is important that Radio Éireann should be as free as possible from ordinary Party comment from either side of the House. That is why nearly all Western European countries have independent corporations. They are democratic people, very much like ourselves in many ways, and they have discovered that the best way to run a radio service is to divorce it as far as possible from the Government of the day. We are having this intermediate stage of development and I would ask Deputies to give Radio Éireann the greatest possible freedom and address their questions to the comhairle or the director if they feel dissatisfied with the programmes or have proposals to make. Deputy Cosgrave suggested that political broadcasts had their advantage but they would be difficult to carry out until Radio Éireann is really free of Government control.

I would like to feel that we could advance to the stage of having more political broadcasts and the comhairle should be made sufficiently free so that we could have that development. I must leave it to the good sense of the House. It is my hope, anyway, that Radio Éireann will progress in that way. All those who work there should feel as free as possible to carry out the programme which I have outlined in my Estimate speech, a general programme in an Irish setting, palatable to the whole community. They should be free to work it out as they think best.

The observation was made by Deputy Cosgrave that our foreign news is a repetition of B.B.C. news. In actual fact, we collect our own foreign news and edit it from various sources so that our people may obtain independent information and to make sure that we will not be victims of the "paper wall". This is not always possible but in no sense is our news a copy of the B.B.C. In actual fact, I have heard the heads of news services abroad in Europe, who use very powerful Monitor sets and listen to news from all over the world, praising the news from Radio Éireann as being most impartial and not affected by British, American or other foreign propaganda. I hope that that will long continue.

Deputies made innumerable suggestions for the improvement of programmes. I can only go through them very quickly, as many as I can, as many as I have time for. Somebody suggested a revival of "Question Time". I hope that we will revive it in the future. The whole success of Question Time depends on the compere. A great many people think they can be comperes but, in fact, it is a most difficult job. It is a typical example of the difficulty of finding a person with a vocation for certain kinds of broadcasting.

Deputy Collins also wants to encourage programmes to discover local talent. We have our beginners' programme and we are going to continue it. He said that he thought there is hidden talent. Deputy Corish said that we should go round the country looking for it. Within the means at our disposal, we have done so. If there is an accumulation of people in a particular district who, we think, are meritorious we send people down to audition them.

Various Deputies mentioned the agricultural programme. We have agricultural talks. The development of an agricultural programme to which people will listen is very difficult. Deputy Corry wanted talks of half an hour on agriculture. It is the experience of broadcasting experts all over the world that it is extremely difficult to get anybody to listen to an individual talk for longer than a quarter of an hour without losing interest. To get agricultural problems talked about in a way which interests the listener is more than difficult and the matter is having our attention. I shall ask the comhairle to endeavour to make the agricultural programmes better, to consider how to increase their number and how to make them interesting to the average person living in the country.

Mr. Hickey

What is happening now is that a lot of people are forgetting about agriculture.

Mr. Childers

A great many Deputies spoke about what the people want, the different types of programmes, the length of time devoted to them and the hours at which they start. We intend to start a listener research as soon as possible. We were told that we could not have controversial discussion over Radio Éireann, that it would cause too much heat, that scandals would take place, that there would be trouble in the Dáil over it, and so forth. I have been told by some cynics that if we adopt the kind of listener research which is carried out abroad we shall not get the truth, that if we send round part-time interviewers who will ask all types of people what programmes they listened to the night before and put it down on the list the people will say what will please them. I do not believe that. I think that the people are growing out of that, if ever they had it.

It is difficult to engage in innovation. We are always told that something peculiar will happen. If we start this listener research in a short time people will be quite accustomed to tell the examiners what they listened to the night before, the hours they listened-in, and so forth, and we shall be able to obtain a reasonable idea of what people look for. We cannot necessarily follow all their desires but it will give us some idea of how to present a palatable programme in which we hope the people of this country will enjoy, not only what is easiest for them to listen to but also the best that is Irish and the best that is our own.

In connection with the proportion of Irish music in the programme, I regret to say that if we were to play all the available records of Irish music as often as some people would like the repetition would be so great that the people would simply turn off the radio. I am having the whole question of the arrangement of Irish airs and melodies examined with a view to providing a far greater diversity of programmes. There is a hopeless inadequacy of positions for various types of instruments and voices, not only in respect of the music we all know but in respect of, literally, volumes of music lying in the National Library, most of which has never been produced or arranged for popular consumption.

I think that it is a matter for the Arts Council, if it is not already receiving attention. We should kill the interest in Irish music if we were to increase the proportion of Irish music broadcast at present without making a great improvement in the arrangement. I do not know whether Deputies have, for example, ever heard that magnificent choir—I think they have now disappeared—called the "Don Cossacks." They were the original Czar's Cossacks and they sang the songs of their native land. One part of the choir sang the tune while the other part of the choir accompanied them like an orchestra. There is no arrangement like that for Irish songs. I think it would be inspiring if O'Donnell Abu, for instance, could be sung like that. I am now examining the whole question of the arrangement of Irish music. We may even have to go abroad for some of the arrangements, judging by the prize money awarded for compositions which we have held at various times, by the number of entries we have received, and so forth. The entries have been very small even for a prize of £50 for a musical composition. The number of arrangements we have received for Irish dance music, for example, has been very small. We have to examine all that matter and find out why it is that we receive so few entries for the prizes we have already offered for musical arrangements. Take, for example, the Moore competition. We invited orchestral arrangements of Moore's melodies. We received 32 entries, only seven of which were worthy of an award. All that shows the necessity for developing music of this kind.

Deputy Briscoe mentioned the playing of old records. I do not think that is very frequent nowadays. We need more balance and control officers in Radio Éireann to ensure that the production is good on every occasion. I do not think I have heard many complaints of that nature.

Deputy Dockrell was very helpful in speaking of the high standard of certain types of musical training in Dublin; he thought training in other directions was defective but he said he appreciated the position.

Deputy J. Brennan suggested that we should have more traditional music. We are trying to get more traditional music arranged. Again speaking of the control of Radio Éireann, some Deputy suggested that if Radio Éireann were made entirely free of Government control by making it into a statutory corporation the Dáil would lose control of the organisation. I want to make it quite clear that that would not be the case. We are having this intermediate organisation for the time being, until this or some other Government decides otherwise. This is an intermediate stage. If a statutory corporation were set up it could be granted a licence at the discretion of the Government of the day to broadcast for three, five or ten years, and at the end of that period the licence could be reviewed, the directors could all be changed, and a new licence granted to new directors under new conditions. I think that, unknown to most people, the Postmaster General in Great Britain exercises an absolute veto on every single word uttered by the B.B.C.—but he must lay on the Table of the House of Commons within 24 hours his reason for exercising the veto. In fact, only one Postmaster General has exercised that veto and that was in the early stages of the B.B.C. It happened in 1926, I think, and I have forgotten the nature of the veto. There are many grades of control, and it is simply a matter of the best type of organisation. We have this intermediate organisation. I should like to feel that it will be as free as possible if we are to succeed in our object to obtain the very best type of organisation, and I should like the people in it to feel that they are not constantly under the immediate observation of Deputies and that their positions are in danger, and so forth.

Deputy Brennan suggested that we should have more recording apparatus for taking down local songs and traditional songs. We are ordering more recording apparatus and I hope it will be available sometime in the new year. As Deputies already know, there is actually a special broadcasting cable within the main co-axial cable to Cork. We can arrange similar circuits in any other telephone cables which are installed for the purpose of connecting local areas with the Dublin station, to enable programmes to be transmitted more easily.

One Deputy suggested that we catered too much for Dublin listeners. In actual fact, the proportion of listeners in the provinces has been rising continuously and I hope it will continue to rise. The difference in the number of listeners per 100 as between Dublin and the provinces is gradually decreasing.

Deputy Murphy made a number of suggestions particularly in regard to broadcasting the results of the Cork game of bowling. I can have that suggestion examined. I do not know whether it would be of quite sufficient interest to justify the broadcasting of news of the game but we can always examine questions of that kind. He also asked for more céilí music. We broadcast as much céilí music as we can and we are trying to secure a better arrangement of céilí music. There, again, if we had too much of it, people would tire of it and on most occasions on which it was broadcast, people would simply turn off from Radio Éireann and would not listen to it.

Some observations have been made in regard to interference in West Cork. Interference, we admit, has been rather serious there. It has been serious in Wexford also. I think I shall have to be realistic about that and say to Deputies from these areas that the interference is caused by European stations which overlap the wavelength of Radio Éireann and break the international law. To minimise the effect of this interference, I would suggest that people with wireless sets in areas like West Cork, Kerry and Wexford must, in the first instance, have their sets in perfect order and must use extra good aerials. That may be a problem to persons of limited means, but the realistic fact is that they must have their sets in the best order and have proper aerials.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

That is interesting because people nowadays do not have much regard for aerials. I think the Minister should make that widely known. People in many areas are dispensing with aerials and they have instead an internal device in their sets that does not mean anything. I have one myself.

Mr. Childers

Of course, as the Deputy knows, if one requires a very high aerial with a large pole the cost even in Dublin is surprisingly high and it may be rather hard on some of these people to provide such an aerial. I think the new transmitter should improve reception. I would ask these people in West Cork and other areas affected to examine their apparatus and their aerials and to send us on any reports of interference when the new transmitters are installed which I hope, if all goes well, will be some time about next July.

I do not think I have much time to go into all the other questions that were raised, they were so many and so varied. Deputy Cogan spoke about the difficulty of getting satisfactory broadcasts of debates over the radio. We have, of course, to contend with a natural reticence on the part of people who have not been accustomed to speaking before the microphone. We hope there will be an improvement in that respect. There is a good deal of that reticence which is natural in a country which has not had much opportunity up to the present of broadcasting these unscripted discussions. We, like every other country, find that a good chairman for a broadcast unscripted debate is very much more difficult to find than a good chairman for any organisation, ceremony or function.

There have been suggestions that we should broadcast the Dáil at Question Time. That is a very big matter. Very few countries broadcast their parliamentary proceedings. Australia does it continuously and has a special programme in which the whole of the parliamentary proceedings are broadcast. It is a question which we could go into but it would be a matter for discussion, first of all by some parliamentary committee. There are many advantages and disadvantages to be considered.

Captain Cowan

Leave it over for a few years.

Mr. Childers

There have been some comments on the kind of plays which we broadcast. I could not enter into a discussion as to what constitutes or does not constitute the stage Irishman but plays in all parts of the world are inclined to be terribly critical of the country in which they are written. If there are any plays which are thought to be offensive, naturally I shall examine the question, but some of the plays which we have broadcast and to which objection has been taken, have been very largely attended when produced in various theatres. People seem to like tragic plays and plays with terrible endings. It is extremely difficult to find good national plays. It is a difficulty which has faced every other country in the world, the difficulty of discovering plays of the purely nationalist type that are good in themselves. We have broadcast plays on Robert Emmet and other great national leaders and we shall continue that policy. We have also tried to broadcast some dramatic features in the lives of great national leaders and in that connection we hope to be able to reconstruct for broadcasting some episodes in the national struggle from 1916 to 1921. We have dramatised some of Maurice Walsh's works — at least one. The whole question of dramatising a work for broadcasting involves a whole world of specialisation. A radio play is very different from an ordinary play. In the recent competition, the majority of the plays sent in were full-length plays, in spite of our insistence that they should be radio plays.

Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy MacCarthy referred to school broadcasts. That is a very big subject. I hope it will be possible to commence the study of that problem later. It cannot be considered at the moment because, apart from anything else, we have not the accommodation for such a programme. Deputy Mac Fheórais made a number of very interesting suggestions all of which will be considered.

I had better close by saying a few words with regard to the sponsored programmes. We have been asked to improve the sponsored programmes but Deputies sometimes are inclined to exaggerate alleged defects in these programmes. I do want to make it perfectly clear that Deputy Cowan is right in his suggestion that the sponsored programme is the result of a choice of music by advertisers who wish to sell their products. I am going to consider the whole question with a view to seeing if we can effect some improvement.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Would the Minister indicate if it is possible to include a lady member in the Advisory Council?

Mr. Childers

I do not think we can include any lady member on the Advisory Council now but I agree with Deputy Mrs. Rice that we should have more items of women's interests in Radio Éireann. I admit absolutely frankly that apparently it has been impossible apart from the children's programme to provide a programme of interest to women as such. That is a matter that will have the early attention of the comhairle. I have nothing further to add except to thank Deputies for their very interesting observations.

Vote agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Friday, 7th November, at 10.30 a.m.