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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 13

Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. There is very little new in this Bill. Most of it has already appeared in the recent Financial Resolutions which were debated so thoroughly by the Dáil.

Section 4 imposes the increased duty on driving licences, and corresponds very closely to Financial Resolution No. 1.

Sections 1 and 5 correspond to Resolution No. 2, and impose the new rates of duty on the use of mechanically propelled vehicles, while the Schedule which gives details of the new rates is exactly the same as the Schedule attached to Resolution No. 2.

Section 1 of the Bill deals also with exemptions. First there is a list of types of vehicle which because of their nature are exempt from duty. The only new addition to this list is the type of vehicle which is used exclusively for the transport of road construction machinery built into it. Such a vehicle will be exempt from duty only so long as it is used exclusively for work on public roads. The growth in the use of modern types of road machinery has made it essential to extend to other types of road construction vehicles the exemption which has already been granted to road rollers. In addition to these specific exemptions there is provision for exempting for a limited period vehicles brought into the State by visitors making a temporary stay. A similar exemption has been in force for a considerable time, and it is intended to continue the existing regulations for the present.

A further matter dealt with in Section 1 is the fixing of rates of duty for periods less than a year. The duty is an annual duty, and the general principle is that it is paid in respect of a year. Special provision is made, however, for the licensing of vehicles for periods less than a year at rates to be fixed by regulations. The Bill fixes lower and upper limits on the rates which may be determined for such periods. The lower limit is that a rate must bear to the full annual duty at least the proportion which the period of the licence bears to a year. The upper limit is that the rate fixed for one quarter of a year shall not exceed 30 per cent. of the annual duty. Under the existing law there is no upper limit on the quarterly rate of duty on a cycle, and in fact the quarterly rates on cycles are at present slightly higher than 30 per cent. Cycles will now be given the same protection as other classes of vehicles. The existing law makes provision for a special rate of duty for a tramcar licensed for the last quarter of the year; this is no longer considered necessary, and does not appear in the Bill.

Section 2 is necessary to deal with the case of a vehicle used for a number of purposes during a licensing period, or the construction of which is altered during the licensing period. It merely repeats the existing law.

Save for the alteration in the rates of duty, and for the very minor changes which I have mentioned, the Bill effects no changes in the existing law. Because of the comprehensive changes in rates of duty, it was found necessary to re-enact a considerable amount of the legislation on the subject. It was not possible to deal with the Roads Act, 1920, which was amended by Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1922, in regard to the rates of duty on trade licences. All the other important statutes dealing with motor taxation are, however, replaced by the present Bill.

As most Deputies know, it is the practice of local taxation offices to start the collection of motor taxation for a particular calendar year early in the preceding December. It is only in this way that they are able to deal with the great rush of business which takes place at the beginning of the calendar year. The intervention of Christmas makes it desirable to start the collection as early as possible in December. For this reason it is very desirable to have the necessary legislation enacted and the appropriate regulations made without delay. The principles embodied in this Bill have already been very fully debated, and I would accordingly ask the House to signify their early approval to it.

I wonder would the Minister deal with a point that we raised on the Resolution; that is the division by 125 as against the division by 160 in the 1926 Act of the capacity of the cylinder, which is really the change from the old-fashioned cylinder to the square edge.

This is a very technical matter, and I admit that I may not be able to give as lucid an explanation of the reason for the change as one should give. I had a brief on the way in which the new computation was arrived at. I regret I cannot give it offhand. All I know is that in arriving at this new method it seems as if most people, outside the motoring world altogether or the people who are not associated with the motor business except in so far as they may be the possessors of motor cars, agree that the new method is much more equitable. It was in order to produce that situation that the new method was devised. I am sorry I cannot deal with the intricacies of the method as clearly as I would like to deal with them.

Perhaps the Minister could obtain the information for us between this and the time when he comes to reply. According to our information under the 1926 Act the capacity was divided by 160. The diameter of the cylinder was ascertained and the unit of horse-power having been found rose thereafter with the diameter of the cylinder. As we understand the position, instead of dividing by 160 the capacity is now being divided by 125 and that division, as the Minister very properly said, is being carried right through.

I want the Minister to understand me clearly. I agree that it is better to assess what is called technically the square edge in this way, but there must have been some reason for arriving at the divisor of 125. My information is that if a divisor of 127 was arrived at a good many of the common makes of motor car would come in the lower category. The Minister will recollect that I suggested to him on either the Report Stage or the Committee Stage of the Resolutions that there was a feeling abroad that he had fixed the figure at 125 in order to bring these cars into the higher category. When I did make that suggestion the Minister, if I may say so, very crossly told me that was not so. Now that we are here in a nice calm, cool atmosphere this evening perhaps the Minister could give me more information.

As often as I have been accused of being cross, I have no recollection of being cross.

The Minister looks cross.

I cannot help that.

The Minister gives that impression. I am glad to hear that he was not cross. There must have been some basis for arriving at that computation whether it was extra taxation or something else. I think the House is entitled to some explanation. I fully appreciate the Minister is not an engineer and I can quite see that the explanation might only be intelligible to an engineer. If it gets on the records, however, we will be in a position to consult expert opinion on it. As it is, we are completely in the dark.

It would possibly facilitate further discussion on the Committee Stage of the Bill if the information—if it is available to the Minister this evening— were made available. Apart from that, so far as the Bill itself is concerned, I agree with the Minister that it has been discussed at some length. Therefore, so far as the Fine Gael Party are concerned, we shall reserve our more detailed discussion of the Bill until the Committee Stage. The principles that underlie the measure that has been introduced have, as the Minister fairly enough said, already been debated. Therefore, it is unnecessary to go into them at any too great length. I must, however, again stress that our main reason for opposing this measure is because we believe that it is not going about the job in the proper way. We believe that it will impose additional hardships on people without really getting at the root of the matter and without making sure that the sacrifices that people will have to bear—as undoubtedly they will have to bear sacrifices under this Bill—will be utilised in the proper way towards ensuring that there will be an adequate road system.

The Minister, when he was introducing the measure a few minutes ago, referred rather strongly to a matter to which we, on this side of the House, referred on the earlier discussion, namely, the necessity for having new and modern machinery of a much wider and more varied type than has heretofore been in use. Going through the country, one can see the very greatest differences between the machinery that is used by one road authority in one county and another road authority in another county. Some road authorities may have progressed and introduced substantial improvements by way of modern machinery. You go into the next county and you see that they are still trying to do the job with a bucket and a shovel. That day has gone. Until a clearer and more careful reorganisation of our road-making administration is undertaken we shall not really get results.

I saw somewhere a reference by one of the Deputies on the Government side of the House to the effect that this measure will make more funds available for the relief of unemployment. I think that is a wrong approach to the making of our roads. What we want to do in regard to our roads is to effect a radical change in administration. We must ensure that, by Government policy or otherwise, we progress towards full employment and, in regard to our roads, our primary aim should be to provide for our island an efficient system of road network. This Bill will not achieve that object. So long as the existing machinery of road administration is continued, all that will happen is that this Minister or some future Minister will come back to this House with the same type of approach in another few years. We must get away from the existing methods and we must make sure that new and modern methods that are available will be utilised to meet the demands of modern traffic.

As I have said, one Deputy referred to the fact that this measure will provide moneys for the relief of unemployment. I do not think it is right that money for the relief of unemployment should be provided by motor-car or motor lorry users. I do not think, also, that it is fair that, even in respect of those big lorries that undoubtedly do severe damage, this provision should be brought in all at once. For some years past there has been a legal limit on the weight which a lorry can carry on the roads. So long as that legal limit existed those people were entitled to operate. It is not fair that, suddenly and without any prospect of their being able to make adjustments, these impositions should be imposed on them. If the Minister were about to introduce the very heavy penal rates that have been introduced, I submit that they should have been staggered in such a way that the people concerned would have been able to use up their old vehicles and then not purchase new ones.

Did Deputy Sweetman say that the legal limit still exists?

So far as I am aware it is still there. Certain county councils do not enforce it. As the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Harris, will be able to tell him, not so very long ago in a place very near where I live we put a limitation of five tons on a particular road that we had remade. We imposed that limitation because we felt that to put anything more than five tons on that road would be dangerous.

That is different from the legal limit of eight tons which I understand was the highest——

I think it was eight tons per pair of wheels or per axle. I expect that the legal limit related to the weight per axle—that you divided the total weight by the number of axles on the vehicle. A story was going the rounds in Kildare some time ago that a certain firm were summoned for having a vehicle of excessive weight. That firm succeeded in persuading the court that they had so many wheels on the vehicle, and that each axle had only one pair of wheels on it. Perhaps the Minister would enlighten Deputy Allen and myself as to the existing legal limit.

I am afraid there is none.

There is a stipulation. Apart from that, it has always seemed unfair to me—although I can understand it from the point of view of administrative convenience—that the person who could not afford to put down a whole year's tax at once had to pay substantially more, as is the case at present. The Minister referred to that in his opening remarks, and suggested that there was a minimum and a maximum—I think of 30 per cent.— of the yearly duty as being the duty for the quarter. Do I understand from that, that the Minister suggests that there is any option for a local authority to provide that the minimum figure will be operative instead of the maximum figure—or is the margin one which is determinable by the Minister, as apart from the local authority which collects the money? It is unfair that a man who cannot afford to put down the whole rate of tax for his lorry has to pay substantially more now—as, indeed, has always been the case.

Does that not happen in all businesses?

Not necessarily, at all.

In insurance and everything else?

It does not happen in the same half year.

My experience in all these matters is that if you pay yearly, it is cheaper than if you pay quarterly.

It might be fair enough if the difference were small, but the difference in the case of lorries is going to be very large indeed. If you were considering it on the basis of a £10 tax, there would be little hardship involved but I am thinking of the small man in the country who has a lorry and with the rates of taxation that are now going to be operative, it will mean a very substantial difference indeed to him. I want it to be quite clear that I have taken the Minister up correctly. You have the position under the Bill under which a vehicle which exceeds four tons but does not exceed five has a tax of £102. I take that as being the nearest to £100 for the sake of ease. If one is not able to pay the £102 in one sum, and has to pay four times £30, that is £120 in the year; it will mean an additional payment of £20. There are many small people in the country who have such lorries. I think the Minister will agree that while there may be a case for a small increase to cover additional administrative costs, there is no case for imposing such a heavy burden as that on a small person.

The Minister also mentioned the great difficulty that arises for local authorities at Christmas time when people are trying to get all their car taxes through in December. If the difference were more nominal, there would not perhaps be the same difficulty in that respect or perhaps again it might be possible to arrive at some administrative method by which you could take out the tax for some substantial period so that you would not get this concentration of work at the same time. When we were discussing this matter before, Deputy Allen told us that motoring was cheaper to-day than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Thirty years ago.

Twenty or 30 was what the Deputy said.

Leave it at 30 years.

Twenty or 30 was what the Deputy said according to his statement, reported in column 375. I had occasion recently to see a deputation and I mentioned to them that a Deputy had stated here that motoring was cheaper to-day than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I could not remember at the time that it was Deputy Allen who said it and I had to look it up afterwards but the people concerned thought that I was a lunatic to think that any Deputy would suggest such a thing. Petrol which was mentioned by the Deputy, tyres, parts and everything else are dearer unless the Deputy was suggesting that the computation was to be at the differential rate of the value of money. I do not know whether he meant to put it that way or not.

Mr. Brennan

In proportion to wages.

That was what I was trying to give the Deputy an opportunity of saying but he has unfortunately contradicted Deputy Brennan because he said himself he did not mean any such thing. If Deputy Allen, when he comes to speak in a few minutes, can amplify the figures he gave we would be terribly interested.

You have not disproved it yet.

They are so utterly fantastic——

Give us another set of figures.

Does the Deputy remember what it cost to buy a motor tyre 20 years ago?

Does the Deputy know what it costs to buy one now?

I shall take 30 years ago.

Just a second ago I suggested 20 or 30 years ago, but he said he did not want to take 30 years ago.

No, I said 30 years ago.

Then I misheard him. He bought tyres 30 years ago and they were of better quality rubber than the tyres to-day.

On a drive to Cork then you had to stop perhaps 16 times to mend punctures.

What kind of roads had you then?

Deputy Sweetman should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

We had better not go back to the 1922 period on motor taxation. It would be better to forget all about it. I take it that was one of the reasons why you had punctures.

Some fellows got cheap cars at that time.

I drove up and down regularly 30 years ago between Dublin and Kildare. Whether the Kildare roads were better than the roads which Deputy Allen had in Wexford I do not know, but we got punctures only occasionally when something had happened to a road of a nature which, again, I do not want to refer to.

You always had a Rolls-Royce.

A T model Ford was the one I was driving and right good cars they were. They did a great deal more than the ten or 12 miles an hour which the Deputy suggested.

A Deputy

A pram you were driving.

I would not be driving the pram myself. Somebody else would be doing that.

You were riding in a pram about that time.

The only difference in the case of prams is that there would be no question of punctures because they have solid tyres. I defy Deputy Allen to go into any town in Ireland, to pick five people in the motoring trade in that town and to get a majority out of the five who will agree with his suggestion that it is cheaper to motor now than it was 30 years ago. It could not be done.

I shall bring witnesses in the motor trade.

It could not be done, and if the Minister wants to justify this legislation on Deputy Allen's boast that he is bringing this legislation before the House because it is cheaper now to motor than it was 30 years ago, the Minister will find it rather hard——

I thought I gave a number of different and, if I may say so, more effective reasons.

I am glad at any rate the Minister has given his opinion of Deputy Allen's reasons because the Minister's opinion coincides with what anybody who read that statement said about it.

It annoyed you and you have not put up any other set of figures.

It did not annoy me in the least.

I asked you for a set of figures.

If the defence of this measure by Fianna Fáil is that motoring is cheaper now than it was 30 years ago, then Deputy Allen and his colleagues are welcome to that defence because we know that the people will pay the same attention to that defence as they did to the statement of policy by the Deputy's Party in North-West Dublin.

(Interruptions).

The House is not discussing elections, and Deputy Sweetman should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

I do not mind interruptions. I enjoy them.

They help you along, in fact.

This measure has been conceived by the Minister as part of the general policy of Fianna Fáil at the present time, which is to take as much as they can out of the pockets of the people. If the Minister had come in with it as part of a general reorganisation scheme there would have been some excuse for it, but to come in with it in this way is merely to impose hardships on the people and do no lasting good.

During the Committee Stage discussions on the Financial Resolutions, the Minister admitted that the only reason he could see for the change in the basis of assessment on hackney cars was the fact that the privilege that was there was being abused. That seems to me to be an extraordinary defence for the Minister to make. Surely, it was up to him and to the Government to take proper steps to see that the abuse was not there and was not continued. If the Minister had taken those steps, then that line of defence would not have been left open to him. This additional impost on the tools of the hackneyman's trade is bitterly resented by them, and in their view is going to lead to the utilisation of a smaller type of car. If that should happen, it is going to have a very damaging effect on, amongst other things, the tourist trade. The use of a smaller type of hackney car in a tourist area is going to be looked down upon by tourists coming here. If the Minister were sincere, I think it would have been possible for him to check the abuses that he speaks of, and to continue the exemption that was there by which hackney owners would get a reasonable remission on the basis of paying 75 per cent. of the ordinary private car rate. That will give them a remission of 25 per cent. on the tax paid in respect of private cars.

Our Party will have certain detailed amendments to put down for the Committee Stage. The general principle was, I think, sufficiently discussed on the other stages. In view of that, I am prepared so far as we are concerned, to accede to the Minister's suggestion that he should have a decision on the Bill at an early stage. I am not prepared to accede to his request that he should have the Bill. The Minister can easily understand what I mean.

I rise for the purpose of replying to the challenge of Deputy Sweetman when he asked me to give further proof of certain figures which I gave when speaking on this subject on the last occasion. I gave certain figures then, and I challenged any other Deputy to produce another set of figures if he wished. Deputy Sweetman has referred to my statement on that occasion. He has not disproved the figures which I gave then or produced any other set of figures. On that occasion I mentioned that 30 years ago petrol was 4/6 and 4/9 per gallon. Deputy Sweetman may not be aware of that.

I am prepared to admit that in those days I was not very much interested in what the price was.

The price of a set of cushion tyres to-day, as compared with 30 years ago, has doubled or trebled. In expressing that view, I am fortified by information given to me by a member of the motor trade, by a man who for something like 40 years has been in the motor business. I may say that, politically, I do not know whether he is a friend of mine or not. That is why I suggested on the last occasion that motoring is cheaper to-day than it was 30 years ago. Deputy Sweetman lives in the County Kildare and I take it that he is interested in farming. The predominant type of farming pursued in that county is cattle rearing. May I ask him, how many two year old or three year old bullocks, he thinks, it would take 30 years ago to buy a car, and how many it would take to-day?

I gave you the opportunity to get out and you did not take it.

I am not 100 per cent. concerned with what happened 30 years ago, but I do think that, in many other respects, I also gave reasonable proof in support of the statements which I made on the last occasion. I am in favour of the proposals in this Bill. If the tax in existence up to now could be said to have been a just tax in 1926, surely the increase is justified now? I am sure Deputy Sweetman will readily concede that there is no relationship whatever between the cost of maintaining roads to-day and the cost of maintaining them away back in 1926. The road tax was increased in 1926 for the purpose of providing funds to help to build roads at that time.

If the Deputy would say "constructing roads" rather than "the maintenance of roads" I would agree with him.

I said "to build roads". I am not concerned about the maintenance but about reconstructing them. If that was a just tax in 1926 to aid in the reconstruction of roads, the Minister's proposals to-day are very just, having regard to the cost of reconstructing roads then and now. Perhaps each year during the intervening years between 1926 and 1952 there should have been a revision of the road tax, whether up or down, just as there had to be a revision of the costs which the local authorities had to provide for the reconstruction of roads during these years.

If there has been a time lag of over 26 years in regard to the revision of that tax, it is unfortunate for the farmers of this country. It is also unfortunate for the motoring public of to-day that, in the last 26 years, more capital had not been made available for the reconstruction of roads from the Road Fund or otherwise. If it has taken since 1922 or 1923, when road construction work started, to reconstruct 8,000 miles of roads, and we still have 36,000 miles to reconstruct, it is a very serious matter. As I said previously when I spoke here, the extra amount of money to be provided is only a mere bagatelle in view of what is required.

I suggest to the Minister that if the £800,000 is doled out amongst the various local authorities, it will add very little to what is available to them for the reconstruction of roads. I do not know whether the matter of road policy can be referred to on this Bill. The Minister did refer to it to a small extent and Deputy Sweetman also adverted to it. I am referring to the matter of providing capital. I believe this money should be used by the Minister for the purpose of making available larger capital sums to local authorities for the reconstruction of roads. If that money could be made available to pay interest and sinking fund on loans, whether raised locally by the local authorities or raised from the Local Loans Fund, then the local authorities would make some progress. Up to the present, anyhow, they are not allowed to purchase capital equipment out of money from the Road Fund.

Capital equipment is badly needed in most counties. Deputy Sweetman's county council would probably be the leading council in the matter of up-to-date equipment. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for us, they acquired our engineer. That is their luck and our ill-luck. Amongst the counties in Ireland, that county has probably the most up-to-date equipment in many respects for road making. Some counties have not sufficient essential equipment for the reconstruction of roads.

That problem exists from county to county. I suggest to the Minister, in regard to the matter of local authorities needing more and more up-to-date equipment, that it will require very large capital. They cannot acquire that equipment unless there is some provision made from the Road Fund to enable them to do so.

The opposition to this measure from members of local authorities and rural Deputies is absolutely unreal in all respects. I have met a good number of people in the last six weeks who own all kinds of motor vehicles and I agree that the extra impost on them will be difficult, but it is not serious in any respect. There is no relation whatever between the cost of reconstructing and maintaining roads 26 years ago and what it costs now. At that time road workers' wages were about 3/- or 4/- a day and they are now, I suppose, four times that. In every other respect the cost to the local authorities has gone up. I am surprised that Deputy Sweetman is not prepared to give any credit to the rural ratepayers for all the money they provided during the last 24 or 25 years to help to reconstruct and maintain the roads. At the same time, the traffic on those roads increased to a great extent which added to the wear and tear, and they got no compensatory advantage.

As I said, if the rates of tax were considered just at that time, and a unanimous Dáil at that time considered that they were, it is extraordinary that the small increases proposed by the Minister should meet with such opposition, especially from rural Deputies, who fully understand the problem of reconstructing and maintaining roads and the great burden placed on the ratepayers and the farming community to try to maintain those roads in the inadequate way they have been trying to maintain them up to now. Everyone who lives in a rural area or who has anything to do with a local authority realises that, with all the other charges which local authorities have to meet, the roads, to a large extent, owing to force of circumstances, had to be left as the Cinderella of the local authorities' services. The local authorities had to maintain hospitals and medical services and the thousand and one other services which they must maintain at a reasonably good standard. They have no option but to maintain them at that standard.

No county council was ever satisfied, however, that it could justify to the ratepayers road maintenance and construction to the extent which every member of a local authority would wish. This proposal is an effort in the right direction. Given an opportunity of improving that service and given more money, there is no doubt that every local authority will do so. The local ratepayers also are prepared to add their moiety.

They are not.

This is to be like the health scheme—another moiety as well.

I believe that they are willing to do so provided they get the service. The vehicles are doing the damage. Traffic has come from the railways to the roads and the main reason is that motor transport is cheaper than rail transport to the community. That is why we have the problem, the blister of Córas Iompair Éireann to-day. This is not an effort to bring traffic back to the railways, nothing of the kind. It will not affect the cost of motor transport by 2 per cent. or by a half of 1 per cent. in most cases and well Deputy Sweetman knows that. I hope that the Minister will have a speedy passage for these proposals.

I do not think that anybody would wish other than that the Minister should have a speedy passage for this piece of legislation. Our function in opposition is not to delay it but to try to get the Minister to change his mind in certain respects. This is the third occasion on which people who are interested have spoken on the general question of motor lorry taxation and the provision of money for roads.

The Deputy will hardly describe himself as being in opposition, I hope.

In opposition to what?

To the Government.

In certain respects. I am not one of those unreasonable people who oppose merely for the sake of opposing. I am in the peculiar position that I do not believe that the Road Fund should be the sole source of contributions to local authorities for the maintenance and construction of roads. Deputy Allen said a minute ago that the road tax was considered just and equitable 30 years ago when we had what he described as a unanimous Parliament. That does not necessarily mean that, at the present time, the road tax proposed by the Minister is either equitable or just. My main point is that, in certain respects, the burden has been placed on people ill-equipped to bear it, and I think that I would have agreement on that even from Deputy Cowan. The amount of work done on the roads is determined by the number of motor-cars and other mechanically propelled vehicles in the country. I do not think that is right. I do not think that it should be determined by the amount contributed to the Road Fund. Let me reiterate my belief that the moneys contributed to local authorities for the upkeep and construction of roads should come from the Exchequer as grants are paid in respect of other public works. Deputy Allen, the Minister and everybody in the House emphasised the need for better attention to our roads, but I say that, as long as that attention is determined by the number of mechanically propelled vehicles we have in the country, the problem will never be tackled in the right way. I can give the Minister a certain amount of credit for what he is attempting to do because I appreciate—those who know appreciate—the struggle that always goes on between any Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance in any Government so as to get the Minister for Finance to realise the importance of maintaining good roads.

We have a peculiar problem in that we were left a legacy of bad roads and those roads were not improved by the conditions which obtained in the country 30 or 35 years ago. I would agree with Deputies who advocated borrowing for the reconstruction of roads because if we examine most of our roads we will discover that they are merely glorified cow tracks that never have been and never will be suited to the type of traffic they are asked to carry at the present time. Therefore I would again suggest that money for work on roads should be taken from the national Exchequer. The Minister's defence of this is that we in opposition want money given to the county councils but on the other hand are not prepared to pay what he demands. This must be linked up with the general financial policy of the Government. I say this not in any sarcastic tone or merely for the sake of sarcasm, but I do say that some of the moneys given in the last Budget to people who did not really want those moneys could have been well devoted to the roads and would have meant much more than the £830,000 which the Minister now asks.

That scarcely arises on this Bill. We are dealing with the question of the tax on certain classes of vehicles.

With all respect to your ruling, the Minister has endeavoured to point out to the House why he needs this money and why he must raise it in this particular way. I am merely submitting that the Minister could do much more for the roads if he had devoted to road construction and maintenance the sum of over £1,000,000 granted to tobacco manufacturers in the last Budget and the £140,000 remitted in respect of the dance tax.

The Minister for Local Government is responsible for this Bill. He is not responsible for the other duties which the Deputy has mentioned.

The Minister for Finance, I assume, is also responsible for the collection of the moneys.

The Minister for Local Government is in charge of this Bill.

In any case that is my submission as far as securing moneys for road construction is concerned. Again we must make some plea—all of us I think have expressed concern—for some modification of the proposal in respect of hackneymen and taximen. It appears like making a plea to deaf ears because we all know how adamant the Minister can be, but I again submit that the tax in respect of these people is an unfair and an unjust tax. These are not people who keep cars for pleasure; these are not people who are engaged in any other type of employment or industry; they are dependent solely on the amount they get for the hire of their motor-cars or taxis. The proposed increase may not appear big, but we must remember that the proposals of the last Budget must be paid for by hackneymen, their wives and their families and that this to them is a second Budget, a severe Budget. If the Minister at this late stage could consider some modification in respect of these men I do not think that this proposal would be thought as harsh as it undoubtedly is at the present time. It is, as many people have said, a tax on their means of livelihood, a tax on the tools they use in their ordinary work. These unfortunate men are plying a fast dying trade. I know from my own experience that there will not be a rush from the country in emigration but even if this proposal affects only two people in a provincial town they will be a loss to the country. This tax will be the last straw that will break their backs and send them out of business, because methods of conveyance by bus, train and private motor-car are so numerous now that it is increasingly difficult for a man who knows nothing else except the hackney type of employment to make anything that approaches a decent living from week to week.

There is no use in pressing the point too much because the Minister is well aware of all the facts and of all the statements that have been made in this House on behalf of the hackney and taxi owners. I made a plea, and I do not know whether the Minister would consider it now or not, that the quarterly payments of tax on cars and, if you like, especially on hackney cars, be the exact quarter of the yearly amount and that no addition be made as at present; I think it is something like 20 per cent. To give the House an example, if the tax on a motor-car is £28 a year and the owner of the vehicle is able to pay only quarterly, he is charged something like £7 14/-, £7 15/-, or £8 per quarter. He is paying £32 a year, whereas if he were able to afford the full amount he would pay merely £28. This is an anomaly and I would suggest that the Minister, rather than increase the burden on him by reason of the fact that he is able to pay every quarter only, should allow him to pay the exact tax.

I made another suggestion to the Minister in respect of the driving licence, that is, that a driving licence for 10/- be given to people who are in the habit of taxing their cars and taking them out merely for the six months of the summer. Many of us know that there are such people. I do not know whether Deputy Carter laughs at that statement but there are a number of people in this country who run small Ford or Prefect cars and who have large families. They tax their cars for only six months of the year, from April until the end of September, for the sake of taking their families to the country or to some seaside resort. These small things add up. They may not appear big to people who are able to run cars for the whole 12 months but these things mean something to people with large families who can ill afford it.

I may be allowed on Committee Stage to raise this question, but in case I am not I want to suggest to the Minister that he should allow the quarterly payment of the tax to be a quarter of the yearly payment and that he should consider giving a six-months' licence for people who tax their cars merely for the summer period.

I was interested in the point of view put forward by Deputy Corish that this matter should be considered as part of the general financial policy. There is a lot to be said for that suggestion, and perhaps in the discussion which is now going on in regard to finance, and which will be continued on the Vote for the Department of Finance, this particular aspect can be considered in a general way.

You cannot get a decision in that way, of course.

I am not dealing with that. I am just trying to make what is, I hope, a responsible statement on this matter, but I am not talking about a decision on this.

You have to come to a decision.

I will. There is no doubt about that. Just the same type of decision that Deputy O'Leary had to take when the fortunes of war placed him on this side of the House instead of that.

It will not be long.

How will you vote on this?

That is all we are concerned with. How will we vote?

The people are concerned at the moment. You are keeping a Government in power that is putting on taxes.

Looking at some recent events one could find some very popular candidates, even one imported from America.

Fianna Fáil thought they had one in Dublin last week.

If we put up Miss Betty Hutton I think she would do extraordinarily well.

The Lord Mayor did not do too well.

Deputy O'Leary might allow Deputy Cowan to proceed with his speech on the Bill.

I want just to say that this particular matter will have to be considered in connection with the general financial policy and that an opportunity will be available there for dealing with it. There is undoubtedly something to be said for Deputy Corish's other proposition, that all the road construction that is required cannot be paid for out of the Road Fund. That again is a matter that requires to be considered in relation to the general problem. I, of course, would not accept the proposition of Deputy Corish that we should simply go out and borrow this money. Within the policy of the Labour Party I am sure that Deputy Corish will find a better solution for the problem than simply borrowing at 6 per cent. or 5 per cent. interest. I think Deputy Hickey will agree with me on that.

I will, for once, anyway.

There is a very interesting problem there but I do not think the Chair will permit us to discuss it on this particular Bill. I speak on this stage of the Bill now for no other reason than to make the appeal I made to the Minister when the Resolutions were before the House in regard to the taxi and hackney proprietors.

One of the difficulties in regard to the taxi and hackney owners is this, that apparently there is more than one organisation and when we were discussing the matter on a previous occasion quite a number of us had been approached by an organisation which had its basis mainly in Dublin but which nevertheless had a country membership. The members of that organisation put forward to us a proposition that we should advocate, and that we should ask the Minister to consider favourably, their suggestion that in regard to taxis and hackney cars there ought to be a flat rate tax of £20 per annum. That was mentioned by a number of Deputies and I avail of the opportunity of reiterating that and of repeating the request I made to the Minister when the Resolution was under discussion.

A number of Deputies had the opportunity this evening of meeting another organisation of hackney owners, the Irish Small Public Service Vehicles Association. The organisation had delegates representing a number of counties in Leinster. The delegates from Kerry were not able to arrive. The case put forward to the Deputies who met them was a strong one, pointing out the difficulties under which they are labouring. The majority of the members of the association are buying vehicles on the hire purchase system and have to meet monthly instalments. In a specific case given to us the monthly instalment was £26 3s. 8d., over a period of two years. Eighteen months' instalments have been paid and six months' instalments remain to be paid. Insurance costs £67 and, heretofore, the tax was £16. Under the new taxation, the tax will be £36 or an increase of £20 a year or £10 for a period of six months, which is something less than 10/- a week.

Viewed in a general way, 10/- a week does not seem to be much, but in the case of hackney owners who are put to the pin of their collar at the moment that extra 10/- a week is undoubtedly a serious burden. We calculated that approximately £8 a week is the amount that that particular individual will have to earn before he can make anything for himself, not taking into account expenditure on petrol, oil or the repairs that are inevitable, especially when the cars are being used in country areas and, more especially, where the roads are not very good.

Quite a number of the members of this association served in the Defence Forces and received a small gratuity on termination of the emergency, which they converted into a hackney car or taxi in order to earn a livelihood. Up to the present, they have been paying in respect of particular vehicles £16 a year tax, that is £6 a year more than the Dublin taximan was paying. They consider that it would not be unreasonable for the Minister to maintain the same difference—£6 a year—between the tax that they pay and the tax that the Dublin taximan pays.

The association put forward other proposals in which the Minister will be interested and which have been mentioned in previous debates on this subject. They asked for an inquiry regarding the holders of small public service vehicle licences. They suggested that where a car, in respect of which the owner holds such a licence, is not available to the public at all reasonable times, the car should not be deemed a small public service vehicle and should not be licensed as such. They make the point, which is a very good point, and which, I think, would be accepted by the Minister and by everybody in the House, that people who tax their cars as small public service vehicles and make them available to the public only when it is convenient for themselves to do so, are entering into unfair and unreasonable competition with those who have to earn their livelihood through ownership of small public service vehicles. Everyone would agree with that proposition. All classes of people through the country use their cars as public service vehicles, hire them out for reward, and undercut the local hackney owner who is depending on earnings from his hackney car. That is not a satisfactory state of affairs, and I am quite sure the Minister and every Deputy would be anxious to terminate it as quickly as possible.

The association also put forward the suggestion that a small public service vehicle licence should be issued only in respect of a car that qualifies to carry four passengers excluding the driver. I do not know what instructions are issued to the people who are authorised to grant these licences, but from examples given by the deputation I understand that the rules are not the same in every place, that there is not uniform application of the law and that that causes unfair competition. The association also requires that the law prohibiting the carrying of passengers for reward by lorries, vans and private cars should be more rigidly enforced.

That does not seem to arise on the Bill.

I shall say only a few more words on it. I want to relate it to the general position. The more stringent application of the law would eliminate these unfair sources of competition, and I am quite sure the deputation we met would accept it if the Minister would do everything in his power to ensure that the law is applied rigidly in the case of that type of unfair competition. If those matters were dealt with, security would be given to the hackney proprietors and, if that were given, the increased tax would not bear so heavily on them. I think every Deputy would press the Minister to eliminate that unfair competition.

I want to renew my appeal to the Minister to consider favourably the case made by the representatives of the taxi and hackney proprietors. I think that the case that was made by the first organisation that we met, that for a flat rate tax, was the better one. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the recommendations that were made to him in that regard. Undoubtedly, these taxi and hackney owners—particularly the hackney owners in the rural areas—render a first-class social service to the community.

They are available at call for urgent journeys. Many of those journeys result in the saving of life. It is necessary that there should be an adequate number of hackneys everywhere in the country. When we have a body of men rendering a service such as that, that is so essential to the community, it is desirable that some special provision should be made for them. I would urge the Minister to consider these aspects of the matter, to consider the case that has been made for that special body. Although there are difficulties in the way, looking at it in a very broad general way I think that a very good case has been made and it would be reasonable for the Minister to grant the concession in regard to taxation that has been asked for by the owners of those public service vehicles.

I did not intend to speak on this stage of the Bill at all, as our attitude towards it has been made abundantly clear. Probably I would not have spoken had I not been so moved by the eloquent appeal made by Deputy Cowan. I do not know how the Minister can resist it. But, of course, it means nothing; Deputy Cowan is wasting his breath and wasting his time. Deputy Cowan knows better than I do or any member of the House does, that he is not going to get relief for those people of whom he has spoken in such moving terms. He is not going to get this proposed injustice removed from their shoulders merely by talking: he can only get that by walking into the proper Lobby.

Supposing I did, would I be certain of getting it?

I would say this: he would have a 99 per cent. better chance of getting it by walking than he would by talking. The Minister would be very slow in saying to Deputy Cowan that he was sorry he could not see his way to accede to the Deputy's very reasonable request—if he knew that the alternative was that the Deputy was going to walk into the Lobby in support of the statement he has just made himself. I cannot understand how Deputy Cowan or any other Deputy can get up in this House and speak with such feeling and such eloquence for 15 minutes against the injustice which the Minister proposes to impose on this section of the community, how he can get up and make that appeal, how he can be so filled with the righteousness of their claim, and at the same time walk into the Lobby behind the Minister for the imposition of the additional taxes which he has just announced.

He voted against it the other day.

We can all change our minds, and I am perfectly satisfied that Deputy Cowan was not as well informed or as fully informed as to the impact of those proposals as he is this afternoon. I doubt if there is anyone in the House who is going to vote against the Bill, who could possibly make as eloquent or as good a case against it as Deputy Cowan has just made. The Deputy cannot have it both ways—he is either for the people for whom he has just spoken or against them. The test is not what he says; it is what he does. The Deputy can determine that by going into the right Lobby. I am perfectly satisfied that if the Deputy and one or two of his colleagues who feel exactly as he does decided to go into the right Lobby these additional taxes would not be imposed—they could not be imposed— and to that extent the Deputy himself and his colleagues will be more responsible for the imposition of this tax than the Minister for Local Government.

This Bill deals with a problem which has already been before the House and has been discussed at considerable length and I do not want to travel in detail over the ground which has already been traversed. As the Bill is now presented to us, we are asked to express our opinions thereon, so I want to put again, perhaps in a new form, the viewpoint of those who earn their livelihood by operating hackeny cars or taxis. Those of us who know the pattern of life for the taximen, whether in Dublin or Cork, and for the hackneymen in the small towns and rural areas, know perfectly well that they work hard and get only a very frugal living. Not only are they obliged to work at all hours of the night and day in order to earn their livelihood but they very often operate under circumstances which compel them to depend in large measure on being paid subsequently for trips which they undertake without prepayment in order to convenience those who live in the vicinity and with whom their domestic lots are cast. It seems to me, therefore, that before we are justified in imposing additional taxes on these two classes of the community, we ought to be satisfied that they are capable of bearing these new burdens. I think we have selected the worst of all years to demonstrate that hackney owners and taxi owners, as a class, taken together, are capable of bearing the new burdens which this Bill will impose upon them.

Not only are they getting, like the rest of the community, the full impact of higher prices consequent upon the recent Budget, but they are getting also the impact of higher prices in respect of the commodities which were not subsidised, but in respect of which there has also been an increase in prices. They are getting the impact of a recession in employment, as is evidenced by the fact that we now have nearly 11,000 people more unemployed in the country than we had 12 months ago.

These things necessarily impact upon those who earn a livelihood operating taxis or hackney cars, but in respect of these two classes, the taximen and the hackney owners, we have subjected them to the special hardships which will be visited upon them by the introduction of a Bill which immediately increases the cost of running cars for them, as exemplified in the fact that they will have to pay increased road tax in order to continue to operate their cars.

If they had no other problems but to meet this increased charge for operating their cars, the problem would be difficult enough but, as Deputy Cowan has rightly said, they have other problems as well. In recent years in particular there has come into the hackney-owner class a number of people who are not legitimate operators of hackney vehicles. They are persons who are in the nature of "pirates" in the business. That is, they come in and they get, as they get easily under the ineffective law which we have at the moment in this matter, a small public service vehicle licence.

Having got that, this class of person operates the car for his or her own use but enters into keen competition with the legitimate hackney owner if they see any creamy traffic available but they will not take the short runs. They will not take the night runs and they will not take the hard runs. All they will do is to operate in such a way that they will get the softest traffic. This operates to the serious disadvantage of the legitimate hackney-car owner who is doing his best to make a livelihood for himself and his family.

The law is wide open to anybody who wants to pirate in that way on the legitimate hackney owner and we ought to have from the Minister an assurance that some steps will be taken to close the gap there so that those who genuinely earn a livelihood by operating hackney-cars will not have to contend with the unfair cutthroat competition of those who are in the business to skim the cream off it and make it harder for the ordinary hackney owner to earn a reasonable livelihood.

Then there is the further question of the type of cars that are operated as hackney vehicles. Unless we do something to put the taxi owner in a position whereby he can meet his responsibilities and earn a reasonable livelihood for himself and his family we are likely to get any type of vehicle used as a hackney vehicle. We know that types of hackney vehicles can be used which leave much to be desired. We ought to try and put the hackney owners in a position by the avoidance of heavy impositions on him whereby he can operate a decent service in the form of decent vehicles and by that I mean a vehicle which will take, let us say, four passengers and the driver.

If we press the hackney owner by the extraction of additional revenue from him to such an extent that he cannot purchase or even continue to own a decent-sized vehicle the tendency will be to push him back to the small and, perhaps, quite unsatisfactory vehicles. To that extent we are losing revenue for the Exchequer because the smaller car will consume less of the taxable fluid, petrol, than the larger car will.

Then there is the overriding consideration which has exercised the minds of this House, the imposition of additional taxation on hackney owners and taximen. Whatever you might say about the justification for that in other circumstances I urge the Minister that 1952 is not the year to select, having regard to the hardships already inflicted upon the working-class section of the community in particular, for the imposition of these additional burdens on taximen and hackney owners.

There is no justification at this stage in selecting them for a double dose of taxation such as they are getting under this Bill and under the Financial Resolutions which preceded it. I could face up to voting for a Bill of this kind imposing even heavy taxation on the large mechanically propelled vehicles used on our roads which are not fit to carry those vehicles if I could see the Minister recognising that it is unfair to taxi owners and hackney owners to penalise them in the manner in which this Bill does.

Deputy Cowan was quite right when he called attention to the fact that under this Bill they will have to pay additional taxation for the road licences, but as we all know a very small minority of the hackney owners can afford to pay their annual road licences in one instalment. They are compelled to get the licences in instalments over the year and because of the fact that they cannot pay for the licence in one instalment they have to pay 20 per cent. additional payment in respect of each quarter's instalment.

In other words, over a whole year the hackney owner who operates his car by paying from quarter to quarter for the licence, because he cannot afford the money to pay for the entire licence in one instalment, has to pay not merely the additional rates but 20 per cent. more because he is not able to pay in one instalment. That will happen in the future as it is happening to-day but he is going to pay the additional 20 per cent. on the additional charges which are being imposed in this Bill. In other words, the poor fellow who is doing his best to earn a living for himself and his family by operating a hackney car will have to pay, because he is short of money, a road tax which the ordinary person can pay in one instalment. That works out in this way, that the man who pays in quarters has to pay almost the cost of 15 months' road licence in order to operate the vehicle for 12 months because he is not able to pay for it in one instalment.

It is most unfair to ask those who earn a livelihood by operating a motor-car, as hackney owners do, to pay this additional percentage on the ordinary rate of taxation. Again, I think that some steps should be taken to ensure that those who operate vehicles for a living would not be asked to pay that additional impost. It seems to me and to every fair-minded Deputy that to ask a person to pay an extra 20 per cent. because he is too poor to pay his year's licence in one instalment is to ask these folk who have slender resources to pay too high a tax because they are compelled to take out their licences in instalments.

That is an aspect of the matter which the Minister could remedy speedily by legislative action or by legislation which would command the ready support of all sections in the House. I urged the Minister, and so did other Deputies, that, so far as this Bill and the Financial Resolutions which preceded it were concerned, he was asking hackney owners and taxi owners to bear far too heavy a burden. Even Deputies in the Minister's Party spoke in favour of some easement of the burden on hackney and taxi owners, although these Deputies, having expressed lip sympathy with the position of the hackney and taxi owner, subsequently went into the Division Lobby and voted against the grant of any concession to these two classes. Having been appealed to by all sections of the House, I put it to the Minister that he ought not to try to steamroll this Bill through the House and that, instead, he ought to leave the matter to a free vote so as to ascertain the real views of the House on a matter which is so important to two large sections of the community, the taxi owners and hackney owners.

I do not know whether the Minister will do that or not, but Independent Deputies do not need any permission from the Minister in exercising their right to demonstrate that they are Independent Deputies, and there is no obligation on Deputy Cowan or on any other Independent Deputy to follow the Minister's lead in this matter. I take it that they would resent it if I suggested they were members of the Fianna Fáil Party—If they are not— and I am quite prepared to accept their view that they are not formal members of the Fianna Fáil Party—they ought to demonstrate here on this Bill that they are independent and can vote freely, that they have no obligations to the Party in power, that they are completely free of entanglements and at liberty to demonstrate not only to their constituents but to their own consciences which keep constant watch over them, and in particular to those of their constituents who are affected by this legislation, that they have the right to decide, untrammelled by the Party Whip, and that they will do so on this occasion in order to show that their real sympathies lie with those who are being squeezed by the Bill the Minister has put before the House.

The Minister, however, might face up to it in a more broadminded and understanding way by saying that he wants this Bill to be the conviction, based on its merits, of the House, and ought not to try to press the House and even members of his own Party to do what he knows is offensive to their consciences, namely, to impose heavier taxes on two sections of the community who we know are not financially equipped to meet the impact of these taxes.

I was always under the impression that our transport problems are pretty well confused here, but listening to the Labour Party and Deputy Norton, I have been convinced that there is a large amount of confusion with regard to our transport system. I am also convinced that there must be an enormous number of vehicles on the road which are not capable of functioning properly and which it is not safe to have on the roads.

If the owners of these vehicles are so hard hit by this tax, it is fairly evident that they were unable to keep their vehicles in proper order. The Labour Party surprised me a good deal because they were aware of that confusion in the transport system, and I always heard them holding forth here on the need for giving some form of protection to the old transport system, Córas Iompair Eireann. I can remember the time when Deputy Norton would have opposed fiercely any private system of transport which was entirely opposed to Córas Iompair Éireann.

There is one fact that we have to realise, and I think everybody realises it, that, in view of the cost of road maintenance, it was fairly obvious that something would have to be done to get money to keep these roads in order. The only chance of survival for some of the financially weak owners of transport vehicles is better roads. I am told that, in certain counties, the roads are so bad that tyres are ruined, after perhaps one run. Tyres represent a very considerable expense, and if a man puts a pair of new tyres on a vehicle, there is a very heavy tax imposed on him. If the roads are kept in reasonable order, it may involve him in extra taxation, but, if he gets better roads, he gains. The effect of this tax is to eliminate quite a number of transport vehicles which are unable economically to stand the pace.

I quite agree with Deputy Cowan and Deputy Norton that there is very unfair competition from small cars which function when it pleases the owners, who carry the passengers they like best and who possibly pay best. That, however, does not arise on this measure. The Ceann Comhairle might pull me up on that point, but, at the same time, it shows the confusion that exists, and any Minister who wants to impose taxation will naturally be inclined to tax a confused system of that nature, and, for their own sakes, try to eliminate some of the uneconomic vehicles which are on the roads.

I am fairly satisfied that if the rules and regulations were strictly enforced, quite a number of these vehicles would not be allowed to operate. Anybody who travels the roads regularly—I travel them every night and every day —knows the confusion that exists. One sees on the roads heavy lorries with trailers, and one cannot see even the end of them. These vehicles travel on narrow roads, and one meets quite a few licensed passenger vehicles——

Is it in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach to ask a Deputy to cut his speech short when he is speaking so interestingly?

I do not know what the Deputy is referring to.

I want to hear the Deputy in full.

Quite a number of these vehicles are unsuitable for transport purposes. They are unsafe because their owners are not financially able to keep them in order and I do not see any way, except taxation, to eliminate them. Whether we like it or not, they will have to be eliminated, because everybody knows what is happening on our roads. Every day one sees reports of accidents, due, in some cases, to bad brakes and in others, to faulty steering and so on. It is time some segregation took place and to my mind this is the only way in which to segregate them. Give Córas Iompair Éireann a chance of survival because the others may disappear and, if they disappear and Córas Iompair Éireann breaks down, we will have no transport at all.

Mr. A. Byrne

This is the third occasion on which I have spoken in the last ten or 12 days. Again, I appeal to the Minister to ease the burden on the taxi and hackney drivers and on the small vehicle owners. The last speaker said he saw no need for the ten-ton lorries with the big trailers. None of us on this side has spoken in favour of the ten-ton lorry with the trailer attached because the very use of that trailer deprives another man of employment. We are not in favour of transport that harms our roads and it is neither right nor fair to drag in that issue while we are discussing this question. Deputy Norton has already said the taxi owner and hackney owner are almost crushed out of existence. Their tyres are heavily taxed. Their petrol is heavily taxed. Their repairs and replacements are heavily taxed. The taxi driver and the hackney driver are tax collectors for the Government.

This burden is the last straw. Will the Minister cease hitting the weakest of our people, the people whose backs are not fitted to bear the burden they will be called to bear under this Bill? Deputy Norton has appealed for an easement of this burden and he is prepared to back his appeal by walking into the Division Lobby against this proposal.

I met the representatives of these people to-day. Deputy Cowan met them. So effective was their case that Deputy Cowan felt compelled this evening to make the speech he did make. As Deputy Morrissey said, however, something more practical than lip-service is required. If Deputy Cowan tells the Minister that he must stop hitting the weak because he will not vote for him if he does not do so, the Minister will find some excuse for carrying the debate over until 10.30 to-night so that there will be no division to-night. Otherwise he will embarrass Deputy Cowan and those other Deputies on his own benches who made eloquent speeches on behalf of the taximen and the small vehicle owners.

Last week, Deputy Moran, Deputy de Valera and Deputy Colm Gallagher made very eloquent appeals but when it came to taking a decision they walked into the Lobby and voted for the imposition of the burden against which they had so eloquently appealed. I suppose that is one of the difficulties that men have to face. The Government and the Minister are not fair to their supporters in the way in which they deal with them because they force them into the Lobby against their consciences.

Some of us met these men to-day. Six of them were ex-Army men who had served the country during the emergency and in the I.R.A. in the old days. Those who got gratuities put them into the purchase of small cars which the Government now proposes to tax. That is not playing the game. These men's struggle is hard enough. There are not many visitors calling for taxis or hackney cars at the present time. I join in the appeal that has been made by other speakers to give these men a chance to earn a livelihood and keep their families instead of having to sell their cars. It was pointed out by them to-day that there is now no market for their cars and if they go out of business they will not get even half their capital value. What will they do? Are they to draw unemployment benefit or go on the dole?

Would it not be better to meet their demands? What demands did they make to-day when they saw Deputy Cowan, Deputy Cogan and myself?

"I have been instructed by the committee of the Irish Small Public Service Vehicles Association to write to you requesting your support of certain grievances of hackney owners in connection with the issue of S.P.S.V. licences which, if allowed to continue, will have the effect of jeopardising the hackney business entirely particularly in provincial towns and rural areas throughout Éire. I would be much obliged if you would raise the following points in the Dáil..."

Deputy Cowan and Deputy Norton have raised these points. There is no need for me to repeat them, I ask the Minister to consider favourably the appeals made to him from both sides of the House and, if he has any doubts, to leave the matter to a free vote of the House and give Deputies thereby an opportunity of both exercising their rights and satisfying their consciences.

I had no idea that we were likely to-night to have a debate covering the field of discussion ranged over on the Committee Stage and on the Report Stage of the Resolutions. Perhaps I may have been unreasonable in thinking that Opposition Deputies would consider that their prejudices and their feelings in relation to these proposals had been amply ventilated. I was wrong in my judgment and the field covered this evening was the field covered on the Committee Stage and the Report Stage of the Resolutions.

When I hear statements loosely thrown around as to the injustices which the proposals in this Bill will impose upon certain sections of the motoring world I wonder if the Deputies who make these statements have really examined the effect of these proposals. Taximen and hackney-car drivers have been referred to ad nauseam. The figures supplied to me by the association representing taximen and hackney drivers amounted in all to £12 17s. 8d. weekly outlay. When the proposals before the House come into operation the additional charge on these men will amount to 2/8 per week. During the discussion on the Report Stage of the Resolutions I admitted that even 2/8 per week was an important matter to people who belonged to the lower income groups but surely it is unreasonable and a gross exaggeration to contend that the addition of that 2/8 per week to the overheads of taximen and hackney-car drivers will mean their going out of business.

I tried to convey to the House what was aimed at in these proposals. Deputies are aware that the roads of the country for which the local bodies are responsible are financed from two sources. They are financed from the rates struck by the county councils and by other local bodies and financed by grants made available to these local bodies through the Road Fund. The Road Fund is created and supported by the taxation that has been paid all down the years, and that will continue to be paid by motorists and users of mechanically propelled vehicles. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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