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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 21 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

I tried last night as coldly and as calmly as the circumstances and the Opposition permitted to prove to the House that the warnings we had issued to the people in regard to the alarming trend which was developing in our external trade and balance of payments had been justified by the event. I should not like the House, however, to conclude that this trend was something which had occasioned uneasiness on the part of the Government for the first time in the year 1951. I had in fact touched on that aspect of the matter and for the information of those Deputies who were not here on 2nd May, 1951, I recalled what the then Minister for Finance had to say in regard to the position as he had noted it for the year 1950 and the beginning of 1951. Perhaps I might again refresh Deputies' memories with the then Minister's, Deputy McGilligan's, statement. He said:—

"The present position of external account is by no means satisfactory and if it continues to develop unfavourably the application of corrective measures will be called for."

Mark those words.

Would the Minister give us the reference?

It is from his Budget statement.

What column?

I have not got the column.

The Minister has a notorious capacity for distorting things and the least the House deserves to get from him is the reference.

If I am to be pressed, while I cannot give the precise column at the moment. I can at least give the Deputy this information which will permit him to refresh his memory. The Budget speech is published in Volume 125. It covers a number of columns. I think the column will be found to be 1884 or 1883.

So he had it.

So he had it.

No, Sir, I had not.

The Minister is guessing.

On a point of order. Is this barrage to continue again this morning as it continued last night? I ask the Chair to protect the Minister for Finance so as to enable him to proceed without interruption.

I ask that the ordinary regulations of the House be attended to when dealing with a matter that the Minister considers to be important. If quotations are to be given from the Parliamentary Debates then, particularly from a Minister, we expect the column of the quotation to be given to us.

The Chair will endeavour to protect every Deputy who offers himself to make a contribution to the debate in this House. The Chair hopes to be helped by every side of the House so that order and decorum will be maintained.

Particularly by the Minister.

I have to apologise to the House for the fact that I was not able a minute ago to give the exact column from which I was quoting. I wish to be candid with the House. I do not wish to mislead the House in any way. Therefore, I referred to the fact that the statement appeared in the last Budget statement presented to this House by my immediate predecessor, Deputy McGilligan. I said that the quotation read:—

"The present position on external account is by no means satisfactory, and if it continues to develop unfavourably the application of corrective measures will be called for."

Now that I am in a position to satisfy Deputy Mulcahy's punctilio, that quotation is taken from column 1883 of Volume 125 of the Official Report.

The conventions of this House are not based on punctilio.

Stay quiet.

Now that I have given the Deputy the exact column in which the quotation is to be found I recommend it to him for study. I think we are entitled to comment upon Deputy McGilligan's statement. Let me repeat it again.

For the fourth time.

This is the fourth time.

The quotation is as follows:—

"The present position on external account is by no means satisfactory, and if it continues to develop unfavourably the application of corrective measures will be called for."

That statement was made by the then Minister for Finance—the Fine Gael Minister for Finance—on 2nd May, 1951. It was clearly a warning, a very grave warning, that if the position continued to develop unfavourably, corrective measures would be called for. The position did continue to develop unfavourably—so unfavourably that at the end of the year the deficit on our balance of payments was more than twice as much as it had been at the end of 1950. 1950—the year which Deputy McGilligan had reviewed and had viewed with such grave apprehension. 1950—the year which manifested a trend that he regarded as by no means satisfactory, a trend of such a grave nature that he warned the House if it were to continue, then corrective measures would be called for. That was the position with which we were faced when we took office in 1951. This trend was continuing—not merely continuing but continuing at a greatly accelerated rate. Our job was to apply those corrective measures which Deputy McGilligan had clearly forseen when he was speaking in Dáil Éireann on 2nd May, 1951, a few days before what might be described as the panic election of that year was declared. Later in his speech—I shall quote now from column 1884—he pointed out the main cause for this grave trend, for this unsatisfactory position which would call for corrective measures, when he said:—

". . . there still continues to be a substantial use of past savings merely to lever up standards of consumption. Making all allowance for the exceptional conditions now obtaining it is to be feared that we are not producing and earning enough to pay our way."

What, in fact, did that mean except that we were living beyond our income? When a nation lives beyond its income it is exposing itself to precisely the same risks as a man does who lives beyond his income. Any man who does that will, one day or another, inevitably be called upon to pay the penalty. It is just the same with a nation. If a man lives beyond his income and has to pay the ultimate penalty of bankruptcy then, of course, he surrenders—and everybody knows it—a very large part of his individual independence. He becomes the servant of somebody else where, perhaps, previously he had been a master. He becomes a slave. His future is mortgaged. He is no longer in a position to act according to his own desires and to his own wishes. He has, as I have said, mortgaged his future. That is precisely the position in which a nation that lives beyond its income will find itself. It must bind itself ultimately to its creditors. That is the fate for which this country was heading when this Government took office in 1951 and that is the fate from which we have been concerned to save it no matter what the risk to the popularity of our Party or to our personal prestige.

This grave question of the deficit on our balance of payments is not a new one. It was not raised by the present Government for the first time in the year 1951 nor was it raised by Deputy McGilligan for the first time in the year 1950. I am going to quote now from Volume 112 and in order that Deputy Mulcahy may not have an excuse for again intervening to interrupt me I shall give him the exact column in that Volume from which I propose to quote. I shall quote from columns 2145 and 2146 and I shall quote from the speech which the then Taoiseach made on the trade agreement with Great Britain. This is what Deputy J.A. Costello had to say, as Taoiseach, in regard to our balance of payments problem in the year 1948:—

"The third big change which has taken place in the intervening years from 1938 to 1948 has reference to our adverse trade balance. When the 1938 agreement was being negotiated the adverse trade balance between this country and Great Britain was such as not to cause any anxiety or certainly very little anxiety."

Perhaps I might digress for a moment to point out the compliment which the then Taoiseach paid unwittingly to the Fianna Fáil administration which had been in office here from 1932 to 1938, when he said that when the 1938 agreement was being negotiated——

Do not remind us of the period 1932 to 1938.

——the adverse trade balance between this country and Great Britain was such as not to cause any anxiety or certainly very little anxiety. Now, if my memory serves me correctly, the anxiety which was then expressed, that is, in 1938, on the part of the Fine Gael Opposition in regard to this matter of the balance of payments which is, of course, linked very closely with the use of our external reserves, was that we were repatriating our external assets too rapidly and that, consequently, we had not a sufficiently large surplus on our balance of trade to please the then Fine Gael Opposition. However, let me continue with Deputy Costello's statement which he made as Taoiseach on the 5th August, 1948:—

"In the intervening period, the adverse trade balance has gone to an extent which must cause anybody who thinks about it for one moment, or who looks at the figures, the utmost alarm for our economic and financial stability."

Perhaps I might, at this stage, say a word about the factors which had produced this increase in the deficit on our balance of payments. The increase was due mainly to one fact, that over the period from 1939 to 1945, by reason of the world war, the normal economic development of the country had been brought almost to a standstill. It was impossible for us, no matter what our reserves were, no matter what our desire may have been to induce our people to bring back the assets which they held abroad and invest them in this country, to get either the plant or the materials to enable us to carry out the programme of economic industrial development which we had mapped out for the years from 1932 to 1948 and which we had carried out during part of that period despite the opposition of the then Cumann na nGaedheal Party. The consequence of this position was, as everybody knows, that we built up a very much larger mass of external investments than we normally should have. When the war ended, however, and particularly during 1945, 1946, 1947 and up to the beginning of 1948, the then Government re-embarked on the policy of industrial development which was the policy that had demarcated it from the Opposition Party in this House, the policy that had demarcated it from us to keep our young men and young women at home, making the things which could be made here in Ireland and employing persons who otherwise would be idle in growing things which could be grown on the land of this country. That was the sharp dividing line which separated us from the then Opposition.

Therefore, after 1945, as soon as the opportunity presented itself to us, we began to restock our factories and our workshops with the materials which had been denied to them during the emergency period. We began to build up stocks that had been depleted during the war years. We began to bring in the plant, the equipment and the machinery which were essential if our industries were to be put on an economic and efficient basis. Because of that, as Deputy Costello pointed out when he was Taoiseach in August, 1948, our adverse trade balance had increased considerably. We never had an adverse trade balance prior to 1938-39.

You always had an adverse trade balance.

Sorry. The Deputy will permit me to correct the slip which I have just made. We never had a deficit on our balance of payments prior to 1938-39. We were always able to pay our way in this world by means of our visible exports and our invisible exports.

And we still are.

We had not to trench on our reserves in order to do that. We built the sugar factories, we built the hydro-electric scheme——

The white elephants.

We launched a housing programme and carried it through and reconstructed over 100,000 houses in this country in six years. We did that without trenching on our external reserves by one penny piece. Not only that, but we lifted the burden which had been imposed on the community by the secret agreement of 1923. We got back the ports and we re-equipped and built up the Defence Forces of this country. Once again let me say we did that without having to encroach on our external reserves.

This will end about Christmas Eve.

Then came the time, as I have said, when after six years of stagnation imposed on us by the war, after six years when we had to try to keep the people of the country alive, when war was raging around our shores and we had to preserve the people of this country from the terrors and the vicissitudes of war, there came a time when we had to restock. As I have already said and I wish to emphasise that did involve a considerable increase in the deficit on our balance of payments. It was to that deficit that Deputy Costello was referring when he spoke on the 5th August, 1948.

Let me continue to quote from it:—

"In the intervening period the adverse trade balance has gone to an extent which must cause anybody who thinks about it for one moment, or who looks at the figures, the utmost alarm for our economic and financial stability. The balance of payments between this country and Great Britain has, in recent years, become completely disordered. When we took office some months ago and became aware of the actual position in regard to the adverse trade balance and the nature and the alarming extent of that adverse trade balance it was one of the problems that gave us the greatest possible cause for dismay. We felt that it was essential, if this country was to retain its economic stability, that steps must urgently be taken to redress that adverse balance of trade and to try and restore order into our disordered balance of payments."

Mark the words, and mark the circumstances. Let me remind the House of them again. There was, admittedly, over the periods 1946, 1947 and 1948 what might be described as an extraordinary increase in our importations. It was due to the causes which I have already mentioned, but let us see what Deputy Costello had to say regarding the repercussions and reactions of that considerable increase upon our financial and economic stability. He said that:—

"...it was one of the problems that gave us the greatest possible cause for dismay. We felt that it was essential, if this country was to retain its economic stability, that steps must urgently be taken to redress that adverse balance of trade and to try and restore order into our disordered balance of payments."

There we have Deputy Costello telling the country that steps must urgently be taken to try and restore order in our disordered balance of payments if this country was to retain its economic stability. Now, if those words were true when they were uttered by Deputy Costello, they were equally true to-day. They were particularly true in the year 1951, because in that year the actually realised deficit on our balance of payments was more than double the deficit on our balance of payments in the year 1947-1948. Therefore, it would be an understatement, it would be a considerable understatement, to say that, at least, the urgency was twice as great as it was in the year 1948, and that the danger was at least twice as grave as it was in the year 1948.

When I say that that would be a considerable understatement, the fact of the matter is that this deficit upon our balance of payments was one of the most pressing problems which this Government had to face up to, one of the most urgent problems and one of the problems that brooked no hesitation and that brooked no timidity in dealing with it. It called for resolution and courage, and I think that the people of this country have great cause to be thankful for the fact that this country was led during the year 1951 by a man who stands unparalleled for the resolution and courage with which he has faced up to all the difficult problems during the lifetime in which he has led this country.

Who is that?

The present Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera. Thanks to his guidance, and thanks to his strong support, this Government has been able to deal with the problem of the balance of payments which in 1948 was causing Deputy Costello, as Taoiseach, and the Government of which he was the figurehead, but which he never led, the greatest possible dismay.

Will the Minister allow me? Does the Minister think it desirable in present circumstances to bring into a controversial debate like this the comparative capacity of the present Taoiseach and the previous Taoiseach? I think that, in the circumstances, it is rather shameful to bring the Taoiseach's—Mr. de Valera— name into a controversial debate like this in the way the Minister is doing it.

The sympathy and understanding with which all the people of this country have viewed the grave calamity and hardship which have fallen on our Taoiseach is an indication of the gratitude which they feel to him, and I am not going to deny him any tittle of the honour and of the tribute which is due to him because, as I have said, he has led the people of this country with courage and resolution from the year 1916 until the year 1952.

My sympathy——

Take your medicine. You are interrupting for the purpose of spoiling the sequence of the Minister's speech which you cannot take.

I am not. You can take my word for that, but I am concerned——

On a point of order. Last night I sat listening for half an hour to the Minister for Finance trying to make his speech, but he was not able to speak five consecutive sentences in that half-hour. Is it to be the same this morning?

You do not understand.

I said at the outset that the Chair would endeavour to protect every Deputy. I take it that the personality of any Deputy does not come into this debate. Officially he does come in but not in his individual personality.

It is rather shameful but one cannot expect anything else.

It is to cover his weak case.

The Deputy is at it again.

The Minister is entitled to an uninterrupted audience.

The interruptions should not be from the one side.

I will soon have disposed of this question of the balance of payments if I am allowed to continue. I was saying that in the year 1948 the then existing deficit on our balance of payments was sufficient to cause the greatest possible dismay to the then Taoiseach and to the Government of which he was the head, if that expression pleases the Opposition. I concede that I have always doubted whether there can be in a Coalition an effective Taoiseach and effective leadership, but that probably is beside the point.

Very much so. That is for the people to say.

What we are really concerned with is the fact that, in the year 1948, this question of the deficit on our balance of payments was causing, as I have said and must repeat again, the greatest possible dismay to the Government of the day. It caused them dismay but they took no steps to deal with that problem, so that three years later, in 1951, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy McGilligan, had to come into this House and say:—

"The present position on external account is by no means satisfactory and if it continues to develop unfavourably the application of corrective measures will be called for."

But these corrective measures ought to have been taken much earlier. They ought to have been taken in the year 1948 when, according to the then Taoiseach, the deficit on the balance of payments was causing the Government of the day the utmost dismay.

However, that ends one sorry chapter. This problem was foreseen in 1948 and nothing was done about it through the year 1949-50. Therefore, in 1951, the Coalition's Minister for Finance had again to come to this House and express the concern of the Government of which he was a member at the fact that the deficit on our balance of payments still continued.

The situation was bad in 1948. We had had an adverse trade balance of £30,000,000 in 1947, I think, and it was bad in 1950 when we had an adverse trade balance of £30,000,000. What was the position with which we were faced in June of 1951? The White Paper which has been attacked disclosed the position to the people so far as we were able to forecast it. We estimated on the basis of the figures and facts then available to us that at the end of the year 1951 the deficit would have risen from £30,000,000 to £70,000,000. That was, thank God, an overestimate because in actual fact the realised deficit was of the order of £62,000,000—£61,600,000 to be exact. In less than 12 months the rate at which that deficit was accruing had doubled. That was the reason, when Deputy Dillon was talking about wood and timber, playing the babe in the wood and trying to shatter the timber, in the debate upon his motion condemning the White Paper as tendentious nonsense, I said that the position had been largely created by, that the problem had been certainly aggravated by, the panic importations which had taken place for which our predecessors had been responsible.

Since we have had to face criticism because of the fact that the Government has had to take measures to deal with this very acute problem, perhaps I will be allowed to show how the problem was, in fact, aggravated for us by the policy which had been pursued by our predecessors. In order to do that I must begin with a quotation from the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, in July, 1950. I am quoting from Volume 122, column 2008. Speaking in the debate on the Estimate for his own Department, the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, said this:—

"Peace and order have since the change of Government reigned over the land and we earnestly hope that they will continue to do so."

That is a prayer in which we can all join. I wish, however, there were more substance in the statement that peace and order had in 1948 "since the change of Government resigned over the land." You can have apparent peace and order if you are prepared to wink at law-breaking and disorder. The then Taoiseach went on:—

"Abroad the war clouds are lowering over the world. Nevertheless the Government has decided that it must base its plans on the hypothesis of peace."

I should explain that I think there is a misprint in the text I am reading because the phrase "it must base its plans on the hypothesis of peace" is printed as "it must face its plans on the hypothesis of peace."

"Otherwise, we would be stultifying our efforts and putting a brake on the economic progress that the country so much desires, and which the Government is confident of achieving."

Mark that this statement of Government policy was made by the head of the Government on 14th July, 1950, and it expressed the policy which the Government had been pursuing during the whole of the period that it had been in office. It was basing its plans on the hypothesis of peace, notwithstanding the fact that the then Taoiseach himself was constrained to admit that abroad the war clouds were lowering over the world. Therefore, we have here in this phrase of Deputy Costello's the justification and the explanation for the policy which our predecessors pursued.

Every one of us knows that during that period they were concerned to liquidate the reserve stocks of essential materials which had been so carefully built up by the Fianna Fáil Government. They were squandering the capital resources of this State. They were contracting crushing foreign debts at such a rate indeed that they had doubled the net burden of the national debt in three years. They were discouraging the tillage policy of the previous Government; they had sold out the transatlantic aircraft; they had shut down the chassis factory and stifled the development of a heavy engineering industry, all projects which the Fianna Fáil Government had adopted and were pushing forward because they knew that peace had not yet been firmly established in the world and that there was a grave danger that we might find ourselves once again in the midst of a world war.

These projects and these undertakings which we had embarked upon as a result of the sorry and dreadful experience which we had undergone during the six years that the world war had lasted were, every one of them, stifled and liquidated by our predecessors, because, notwithstanding the fact that the international situation was as threatening as the then Taoiseach himself admitted, they were planning on the hypothesis of peace. That was their policy. That was the hypothesis on which they based their policy in 1948. That was the hypothesis on which they had persisted in that policy, notwithstanding the fact that international tension was mounting, so that even in July 1950 the then Taoiseach was still maundering in these terms. They were basing their planning on the hypothesis of peace when war had already broken out in Korea, basing their planning on the hypothesis of peace even when the Communist hordes were besieging Pusan.

When it looked as if this hypothesis of peace was no longer a tenable one, however, when the cold reality of the situation struck them and drove them out of that spirit of complacency which has created such grievous problems for this nation, then they were no longer planning on the hypothesis of peace, they were subjected to a mental hurricane, and in this brainstorm they were thrown from one extreme to another, the fatuous complacency engendered by the hypothesis of peace was swept away in an equally unreasonable panic, and when prices were soaring on the world market these men who had depleted the national reserve, these men who had denuded this country of essential materials, went into the markets of the world, started to buy, and enjoined upon everybody to go in and buy, even when prices were soaring. The consequence was that we had to replace at inflated prices the reserves which should have been carefully husbanded but which were frittered away during the three years of the Coalition.

That was the primary reason why we were faced with this doubled deficit on our balance of payments in 1951. Remember, as I pointed out yesterday, that, in so far as any increase was manifested in the physical volume of stocks, it amounted to about £12,000,000 worth and that the rest of the increase represented panic buying at inflated prices in order to make good the mistakes, in order to redress the situation, which had been created by this misguided policy of basing the Government's plans on the hypothesis of peace. We are still very far from peace. Indeed, we may be even nearer war than when General MacArthur drove the Chinese to the Yalu River or when Berlin was isolated.

Is this an attempt to get away from the effects of the Minister's policy in this country?

This is an attempt to bring home to our people how foolish it was over the past four years to base governmental planning on the hypothesis of peace. It is an attempt to awaken our people to the fact that we are not an isolated unit in this world, that we are not insulated against the reaction of foreign events and that if war breaks out we will have to undergo grave and serious vicissitudes just as we did from 1939 to 1945.

It would be much more advisable to deal with what we should do in the future.

No word of mine— no word I can say could precipitate war, but I hope that what I do say will awaken our people to the gravity of the international situation and stop them from being fooled by the silly sort of baby pap that is being drooled out to them——

It might be desirable if the Minister would change his line.

——by gentlemen like Deputy MacBride, Deputy Dillon and Deputy Hickey.

That is that we should not work on the basis of peace?

This Government is not basing its planning on the hypothesis of peace.

Obviously, neither external nor internal.

This Government is a Government composed of realists, a Government composed of men most of whom had the experience of trying to bring this country through the last war, and it knows that if only we had been permitted by the then Opposition to put in force prior to 1939 all the measures that we thought would be essential to safeguard our position if war did break out, the lot of our people would have been a great deal easier than in fact it was. This Government is composed of men who remember that in the year 1938 when we got back the ports, when we freed the people from the irksome and dangerous obligations which the Treaty of 1922 imposed upon them we were told that it was quite unnecessary to put these ports in a state of defence and were attacked because we asked the Irish people to spend £600,000 on the defence of those ports.

And told them that we could not be neutral in a world war.

We were told by the present leader of the Labour Party that we were putting these ports in a state of defence in order to defend Great Britain's back door. Deputy General MacEoin went down and said that we had a secret understanding with Britain regarding the defence of these ports.

Give the quotation of Deputy Norton.

That is the sort of criticism we had to face in 1938 and 1949.

On a point of order. Are the discussions that took place in this House at that particular time on defence matters to be reviewed and if so will we have the same right to do so as the Minister is taking to himself?

I am asking also for a quotation of Deputy Norton's statement.

The Minister did not make a quotation. He referred to a statement. He did not purport to quote.

On a point of order. The Minister is utterly irrelevant and is attempting to get away from a discussion on, or an explanation by himself of, the effects of his financial policy in the last year on the fate and fortunes of the people of this country.

He should come to their fate in the future.

So far he is relevant.

Do I understand that the Minister's argument is that the policy of this country has to be carried out financially and otherwise at the present time in face of a war threat and against the possibility of peace?

I am not purporting to construe the Minister's argument at all.

I say that this country cannot, in the light of its past history and past experience, afford to gamble on the possibility that peace will be preserved in face of the menacing facts of the international situation.

And what are these?

It cannot turn its back on the world as it stands to-day and think that by turning its back and by burying metaphorically speaking, its head in the sand, like an ostrich, it will escape the consequences of war if war breaks out and the consequences, as we know, may be grave and terrible indeed. I referred to 1938 merely in order to show how this Government acted, in order to justify the stand which this Government was taking, in order to justify the measures which this Government is taking in order to ensure that if war should break out in this year, next year or in 1954, this country will be in a better position to face the circumstances and conditions which will then obtain, than it was during the period from 1939 to 1945. That is all I want to say. I am saying it again. We are not planning on the hypothesis of peace but on the basis that our danger is great and that our position is precarious. But we are not acting in a panic. We are not activated by the unreasoning panic which moved our predecessors to rush into the world markets in the latter half of 1950 and the beginning of 1951 in order to try to repair the damage which they had done to the economy of this nation over the preceding three years. We are coolly grappling with the situation to the extent of our resources and we are making such preparations as we can to face the worst if it should come.

That is our position. It differs radically from the foolish complacency which determined all the actions of our predecessors. It differs radically in this fact, that we are not prepared to squander the resources of this country in order that we may buy a few votes to keep ourselves in power. We do not sit here because we desire office or because we like office. We sit here as men who have always recognised their national duty, as men who have been prepared—perhaps I should not say it—to give to this country the leadership which it requires. Whether the people accept or reject that leadership, whether they think our actions are wise or foolish, we shall act and we shall advise the people in all good faith and to the best of our judgment as to what we believe to be the interests of the common people, of the whole people of this country and as to what we believe will ultimately secure for our people that measure of peace and happiness, that peace which our comrades died in order that they might enjoy.

I think, Sir, I have disposed of the attack which has been made upon me because of the measures which the Government has felt compelled to take to redress that deficit in our balance of payments, which, according to Deputy Costello, was already causing the greatest possible dismay to him and his Government in the year 1948.

May I now come to another aspect of Government policy for which I am supposed to bear a particular responsibility? I should like, however, to say here that in so far as anything has been done by me or by any of my colleagues in the Government, it has been done for and on behalf of the Government as a whole. We accept fully and give full effect to the principle of collective responsibility. Every member of this Government shares responsibility for everything that every other member may do. It may be that we accept a particular responsibility, by remaining in office, in respect of the things the Government does. I accept a particular personal responsibility for the Budget. If the Government had not been prepared to support me in the Budget I would have been unworthy to remain Minister for Finance holding the views which I do, but, as I say, we, all of us, act together. We are a united team. We have not, for instance, the spectacle of the Minister for External Affairs going out and preaching one particular line of financial policy and the Minister for Finance upholding another. We all stand together accepting collective responsibility for the policy of the Government as a whole. This Government has one policy, and that is to preserve the political and economic independence of our people and, to the extent to which our resources will permit it, to prepare the people to face the future, whatever it may be, with such assurance as Divine Providence will afford to us.

Does that refer to the emigrants?

I should like to come now to this particularly vexed question of credit policy. I understand, and I think you will recall, Sir, that when we were discussing the motion which stands in the name of Deputy MacBride dealing with the question of the Central Bank, it was suggested that the debate might be continued on this token Estimate. I do not know whether it is worth while going into the merits of Deputy MacBride's motion. Quite obviously it has been put down on the Order Paper by a Deputy who is ill-versed in the matter of which it proposes to treat. It looks very learned. Quite obviously it has been drawn up by a lawyer but, I think, by a lawyer who has been badly briefed. It has already been in large part disposed of by Deputy Vivion de Valera. It contains a number of statements which, to borrow a phrase of Deputy Dillon's, could only be described as "tendentious nonsense." It has all this jargon about "in so far as," and so on, and so on, but what does it all come down to in the end but an attempt to intimidate the governor and directors of the Central Bank from putting before the people their views on the situation in which we find ourselves? It is an attempt to muzzle the governor and directors of the Central Bank because they have drawn certain conclusions which seem to reflect unfavourably upon the policy which was pursued by our predecessors.

If the governor and directors came out and slapped Deputy MacBride, Deputy Dillon and the Coalition Government on the back, and said: "You are fine fellows. You are doing very well; you are spending the nation's money at an unparalleled rate; you are in fact, according to your own Minister for Finance, using your reserves in order to lever up the present standard of living; you are creating a highly unfavourable position in regard to our balance of payments, a position which your successors will have to face but, notwithstanding all this, you are fine fellows; you are to be commended; the people need not be alarmed," then we should not have had any of these intimidatory motions on the part of Deputy Dillon or Deputy MacBride. On the contrary, I suppose they would hold a special beanfeast in order to express their gratitude to the governor and directors of the Central Bank.

Because these independent men, men who have been placed in a position of independence by the deliberate act of this House, have the temerity to express the conclusions at which they have arrived as to the ultimate effects of the policy which was being pursued by the Coalition Government during its term of office, they are being hounded, they are being held up to public odium and contempt by Deputies like Deputy MacBride whose every utterance betrays a fundamental ignorance of the most simple aspects of this matter. They are being told that they are pro-British. Some of them served in the I.R.A. Some of them stood beside James Connolly. Some of them helped to found the Labour movement. Some of them went through the strike of 1913.

Did James Connolly ever suggest the creation of an unemployment pool?

Some of them were brought through the streets of the City of Dublin bound in chains, on lorries——

I do not see how the history of the directors of the Central Bank arises on this at all.

On a point of order. I take it that I will be entitled to go into the antecedents of some of the directors of the Central Bank when I am dealing with the Estimate?

I cannot give any guarantees in advance. There will be no privilege accorded to one side more than the other. That is all the Chair is prepared to say. I do not see how the history of any member or members of the board of the Central Bank arises.

On the point of relevance as a point of order. The Minister has now been three hours and five minutes in introducing his Estimate. He has not come near discussing the important thing, that is, the effect of his financial policy.

That is not a point of order. That is a misstatement.

Are we to have this irrelevancy continuing without coming to the kernel of the matter?

The Chair considers that what the Minister is saying is relevant.

I unreservedly accept your ruling but I would like to say that I feel that justice demands that this charge which has been levelled against directors of the Central Bank that they are pro-British and that they are deliberately acting contrary to the best interests of this country, should not be made.

That is in their official capacity. Their personality does not come into it at all.

They are trying to operate a system that cannot work. That is what is wrong.

I will come to that point later but whether it can work or not is another matter.

It is well that we should apply ourselves to that.

As I have said, the purpose of these attacks, the purpose of these motions, has been to divert public attention from the report of the Central Bank and to concentrate it upon the personality of the governor and directors. The intent has been to divert public attention from the fact that the bank's reports have pointed out what would be the ultimate consequences if this country were to continue to pursue the policy which our predecessors had embarked on when they were in power.

No member of the Coalition Government can claim that he recognises more keenly than we do, or feels more deeply than we do, that we must develop the industrial arm of this country, that we must develop our natural resources to the fullest extent. We blazed that trail. We were the pioneers and we had to do that when we were told that our new industries, our infant industries, if you like to describe them in that way, were backroom industries and were being carried on in kitchens and cellars. That was the sort of misrepresentation which we had to face in the early stages. So far as we are concerned we wish, and it is our earnest purpose, to develop the industrial arm of this country but we wish to do it, as all sound good businessmen would do it when they are dealing with their own concerns, prudently and providently. We do not want window dressing. We do not want flamboyant displays. We want ultimate results in sound economic and profitable industries, industries which will be founded on a competitive basis, which will be able to sell their goods on merit alone and which, because of that, will give secure employment to our own people.

Therefore, Sir, so far as our credit policy is concerned and so far as we have any dealings with the ordinary commercial banks of this country, we will deal with them on the basis that we regard it as their first duty to foster and develop Irish industries and Irish resources.

By withholding credit.

Let me come now to what is the fundamental factor which determines and has determined our whole banking structure. It is not something which came into being this year or last year. It represents the growth and culminating development of many hundreds of years—certainly of more than one century.

That is what is wrong with it.

Of course, the Deputy is one of those fellows who cuts down a tree. He is one of those fellows who would raze things to the ground before he can replace them. He will throw out the dirty water before he has the clean. That is not the way a country can continue to run or to make progress. We have taken this country over as a going concern. We have got to shape, alter, and, if necessary, replace, by new installations and by new organisations, the concerns, the institutions and the undertakings which we took over.

Let me try and put to Deputy MacBride what I regard as the fundamental factor which has determined very largely the steps which successive Governments have taken to deal with this banking and currency problem since 1927, since the earlier Banking Commission of 1924 or 1925. I forget the exact year.

On a point of order. I think there has always been a convention in this House that a Deputy may not read a paper publicly in the House.

That is quite correct. It is not the usual practice.

I presume I am the Deputy referred to. Would it ease the Deputy's mind if I told him that I was reading the Irish Press report of the Minister's speech in relation to the matter now under consideration and that I am paying particular attention to the dirty crack made last night?

It appeared to be a discourtesy to the Chair.

There is no discourtesy whatever to the Chair.

The Deputy was in this House when I made the statement which you, Sir, asked me to withdraw. As to the merits of that statement, opinions will differ. The Deputy was here and heard it and took occasion, among other things, to stigmatise it in terms which were unparliamentary. I do not think it is necessary for him to refresh himself in regard to my remarks.

I found it hard to believe it.

The real purpose of that interruption on the part of the Deputy was to divert me from the speech I intended to make.

Deputy Cogan interrupted you.

The Deputy quite flamboyantly held the paper up almost over his head.

Can we not discuss this matter calmly and deliberately rather than have to listen to all this talk?

Hear, hear!

He should keep Deputy Cogan in order.

And give the Minister a better brief.

I have the Irish Statistical Survey 1950-51 and I would direct the particular attention of Deputies who may be interested to Table B.2 on page 60. There they will see an analysis of our balance of international payments with different monetary areas in the year 1951. If they look at that they will see that the vast bulk of our trade was carried on with the sterling area with, in fact, one customer. That has been our experience, our fate, our fortune or our misfortune for a great number of years.

Those of us who were in office during the period 1932 to 1938 will remember the attempts which we made to try and secure alternative markets for the produce of our farms. We were not able to do that during that period, and I regret to say that we have not been able to do very much to improve it since, although it is true that in the present year developments have taken place which, if they continue, will put us in a very much freer and unprejudiced position to deal with those contradictions which seem to agitate the mind of Deputy MacBride.

If you look at the table you will see that our total current receipts from the sterling area amounted to £134,000,000 and our total current expenditure with the sterling area amounted to £133,000,000. The corresponding figures for the total of all countries was £157,000,000 and £219,000,000, respectively. What does that show? It shows that the bulk of our trade is carried on with one customer.

We have incidental transactions with other countries in other parts of the world but our payments are made mainly through that one customer or through the facilities and organisations which he happens to possess and which we do not and which hitherto we have not had any need to possess because of the fact that our trade, export and import, has been largely confined to one channel. That is the fundamental fact in our whole economic set-up. It determines virtually the price which we will receive for our produce when we export it and the price at which we will be able to buy produce when we import it. It is the fundamental factor in our whole economic and financial set-up.

What is the natural corollary to that? It is a simple one. If virtually your whole trade is with one customer then you and he should agree upon a common unit of account—a common unit of account on the basis of which your obligations to him will be computed and his to you will be computed as well.

Nobody challenges that.

Right through the whole of the Deputy's speeches there runs a failure to recognise that.

I challenge the Minister to produce one speech that does not recognise that.

Perhaps if I could talk for about 12 hours I might produce a great number. I want, however, to refer again to that fundamental factor because it is of the greatest importance. It is a factor which determines very largely, not wholly, the policy which not only the Central Bank but the ordinary commercial banks of this country must pursue. The fact that our trade is largely with one country and that for the purpose of facilitating that trade, for the convenience in short of ourselves and of that customer, we must have one common unit of account so that he will freely accept our money in settlement of our obligations to him and that we shall freely accept his in settlement of his obligations to us.

I think you should finish on that note.

I beg to report progress.

It is hardly progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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