Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1952

Vol. 135 No. 1

Agricultural Workers (Weekly Half-Holidays) Bill, 1952—Report.

Mr. Dunne

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 2, Section 2, sub-section (1), between lines 19 and 20, to insert a new definition as follows:—

"weekday" does not mean Sunday."

Last week when this Bill was in Committee we made the case that there should be specifically stated in the Bill that a week-day does not mean Sunday, as it was conceivable that any employer who wanted to avoid the impact of the Act might possibly argue that Sunday being a week-day he could allow the worker the half-holiday on that day. In reply to our arguments the Minister stated that there was no need for this amendment because the Interpretation Act of 1937 defined Sunday as not being a weekday.

The point I want to put is that few, if any, agricultural employers will have heard of the Interpretation Act of 1937, that a great many people outside the agricultural community will not have heard of it either, and therefore they will not be aware of the fact that Sunday has been defined as not being a weekday. Our idea in asking to have this amendment inserted is to simplify the Bill and make it perfectly clear that Sunday must be excluded when consideration of the half-holiday comes up. We still feel that a reference to the Interpretation Act of 1937 should at least be included in the Bill.

It should not be left to argument which might have to take place in a court or in some other quarter. It should be put beyond aye or nay, and there should be a specific provision in the Bill along the lines of the amendment that a weekday does not mean Sunday, or, alternatively, there should be an explanatory reference to the Interpretation Act of 1937.

Mr. Allen

I suggest that it is a reflection on the people of this country to suggest, as Deputy Dunne suggests, that there are farmers who would argue that Sunday was a weekday and an ordinary working day. It never has been heard of and Deputy Dunne might give some consideration to that aspect of the matter before trying to set out in a Bill for the benefit of the farmers that Sunday is not a working day or a weekday. It is the most far-fetched thing I have ever heard suggested.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

This amendment was before the House last week and I stated that Sunday was already defined in the Interpretation Act of 1937 as not being a weekday. That should have been sufficient, I think. Surely we do not propose in every Act put through this House to define what is a weekday and what is not? It has been already done and why should we have the duplication? I cannot see why it should be included in this Bill. There is no necessity for it, because the interpretation has been given already and has been embodied in an Act. Surely the farmers and their employees will have no difficulty about knowing that. The courts and the legal profession know it, and the farmers and the agricultural workers, if they do not know about it, will know in a very short time that Sunday cannot be included.

Mr. Dunne

I was making the point that it should be done in the interests of simplicity. Some of us like to make things as simple as we possibly can in the interests of the people who will be reading the Bill. This Bill will be pretty widely read when it becomes an Act and will be scrutinised by all classes of people for many and varied reasons.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would remind the Deputy that this is the Report Stage.

Mr. Dunne

The suggestion was made by Deputy Allen that it was casting a slur on the intelligence of the agricultural community. That was an effort on Deputy Allen's part to twist what has been said.

Mr. Allen

The Deputy is trying to twist it.

Mr. Dunne

If agricultural labourers do not work on Sundays in Deputy Allen's constituency there must be a different kind of agriculture practised there from what is practised elsewhere. Thousands of agricultural labourers work on Sundays.

Mr. Allen

An odd one.

Mr. Dunne

Milkers and those engaged in the care of live stock and horses work on Sunday in all parts of the country. There is no point in Deputy Allen's argument. If the Minister is not anxious to achieve the utmost simplicity which we regard as very desirable, I will not press this amendment, but I want to have it on record.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Walsh

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 2, Section 4, to add at the end of the section "and, if he does not fix it, it shall be deemed to be Wednesday".

We had a debate on Section 4 last week as to designating the day for the half-holiday where agreement is not reached. There are two ways in which the day can be fixed. One is by mutual agreement and the other is by the farmer fixing it himself. In the event of the farmer not fixing a day, it was suggested by Deputy Dunne and others that we should fix a day, and the day mentioned by them was Saturday. I do not know why Saturday was selected. In some parts of the country Saturday might be suitable, but in other parts of the country Monday might be more suitable. Having regard to the number of days worked in the week, I now suggest that Wednesday should be the day fixed. The worker works for two days of the week, and then, if there is no agreement, he takes his half-holiday on the Wednesday, and works on Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Could we discuss amendments Nos. 2 and 3 together?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Amendment No. 3 means in effect that, failing agreement or the fixing of a day by the employer, Saturday shall be a half-holiday. I suppose it is a matter of opinion. The Minister asks why the members of the Labour Party suggest Saturday. I suppose it would be just as logical to ask why he took out a pin, looked at the seven days of the week and chose Wednesday. Saturday is the logical day, as practically all manual workers in the country get their half-holiday on Saturday. County council workers, factory workers, builders' labourers, skilled men such as carpenters and others in the building trade, all get their half-holiday on Saturday and I think it would be only fair and proper that if the farmer fails to fix a day the farm worker should get his half-holiday on Saturday, too. I cannot see why Wednesday was taken. It may be different in other parts of the country, but a Wednesday half-holiday in my county—in our county, might I say to Deputy Allen?—would not mean anything. The shops' half-day is Thursday.

Mr. Walsh

The shops' half-day in my county is Wednesday.

Mr. Allen

It is Wednesday in some towns in Wexford, Ross and Gorey.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

That would be the half-day for shop assistants, but all over Wexford, all over the Twenty-Six Counties and over the 32 Counties manual workers get their half-day on Saturday, and I think there is a tremendous advantage in it. None of us, farmers' representatives or Labour members, thinks that farm labourers are paid sufficiently, but if they wanted to go to Dublin for a match, visit relations or, more important, to shop, it would be an advantage to have Saturday off. The Minister said that to have Sunday off was an advantage and that the half-holiday should come in the middle of the week, but Wednesday does not mean anything as a half-holiday to the farm labourer or, for that matter, to any other manual worker.

There is not a whole lot in this amendment. I do not think it will be of any terrific importance unless the half-day is not fixed by agreement or by the employer. It will not be a usual occurrence that the half-day must be fixed by a Section in the Act, but I do seriously suggest that if the Minister or Parliament wish to intervene we should fix Saturday so that the agricultural worker will be in the same position as his fellow workers, the majority of manual workers who get their half-holiday on Saturday afternoon. I do not see any reason in the world why Wednesday should have been taken. To stipulate that the half-day should be on Saturday would be advantageous to the worker but if Wednesday is designated that will mean practically nothing to the farm labourer. It is a matter of opinion between the Minister and ourselves but in view of what has been said and in view of the fact that so many people get their half-day on Saturday the Minister should accept this amendment and withdraw his own.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Dunne stated quite a considerable time ago that they were determined—when he said "they" he meant the Labour Party— to make Saturday the general half-holiday for agricultural labourers if it could be done at some time in the future. He made that statement in this House and he will not deny it.

Mr. Dunne

I do not remember it but I will not deny it.

Mr. Allen

He used words to that effect.

Mr. Dunne

There is nothing shameful in that.

Mr. Allen

It is quite obvious from the amendment of the Labour Party that that is their object. Deputy Corish went so far as to say that if Wednesday were fixed for the half-holiday it would be of no advantage to the agricultural worker. He would be better without it in other words.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I would not be bothered getting a half-holiday on Wednesday.

Mr. Allen

That is a bit far-fetched. This will come into operation only in the third eventuality, if the worker and farmer do not agree, and if the farmer does not fix the day. The Minister selected the middle of the week, but both interests, the farmer and the worker, will have an opportunity beforehand of fixing a day that will suit both of them, and it will be found that in 90 or 95 per cent. of the cases they will agree on a day. There is no doubt about that. There will be 1 per cent. of the cases for which no Parliament can legislate. They say that hard cases make bad laws. If hard cases come within the scope of this legislation it will be very hard for the Dáil to legislate for them. The Minister is wise in sticking to the day he has suggested in mid-week. If there were no such amendment and the farmer and worker failed to agree the farmer would still be liable in law to pay the worker, and a penalty is provided in the Bill if he does not, so there is no necessity for anything further.

Mr. Davin

I do not understand the Minister's attitude to these amendments of ours, because I have a very clear recollection—and I am sure that he will not deny this—of the Minister speaking in his own constituency a short time ago when he said that if he had his way—and I have an idea he could do things as he wants—the agricultural workers of the country, those employed in his own constituency in particular, would have at least 10/- a week more than industrial workers, and that their conditions generally would be on a higher level than those of industrial workers. Why did he not face up to it on this?

Mr. Walsh

This has nothing to do with it.

Mr. Davin

Of course it has.

Mr. Walsh

Give us time.

Mr. Davin

If the Minister inquired from the Minister for Industry and Commerce or from any other of his colleagues in the Cabinet who is acquainted with the position of industrial workers, he would find that the overwhelming majority get their half-holiday on Saturday by agreement with their employers. Deputy Allen seems to think that this is a major matter, and that it would be a serious thing for the farmers if Saturday were the day fixed instead of Wednesday. I hope I am right in assuming that the number of farmers who would refuse to settle this matter by agreement would be about 5 per cent. If that is so, there is nothing very much between us as to whether it should be Saturday or Wednesday.

Mr. Walsh

Why are you pressing it?

Mr. Davin

The Minister knows from his experience in his own constituency that if the agricultural labourer had a choice he would prefer Saturday to Wednesday.

Mr. Walsh

I do not.

Mr. Davin

Of course you do. Do you not know perfectly well that if the agricultural labourer had enough money to bring him up to a hurling match in Croke Park, particularly if Kilkenny were playing in the All-Ireland final, he would prefer Saturday to Wednesday?

Mr. Walsh

He will get there, anyway.

Mr. Davin

Some of the farmers of Kilkenny—and nobody knows this better than the Minister—would not dream of going to a hurling match and naturally because they would not dream of going to a hurling match or even going to a town where one was being played, they would not like their agricultural labourers to go. This cranky type of farmer who represents about 5 per cent. of the farming community would insist on Wednesday instead of Saturday. If the Minister really means what he said in his own constituency that he believed in increasing the wages and improving working conditions of agricultural labourers, and in paying agricultural labourers, in his own words, 10/- a week higher than the industrial workers, let him do what has been done in the industrial world in his own constituency and give the agricultural workers their half-day on Saturday.

Mr. Keane

I am convinced that in connection with the Labour Party amendment on the Committee Stage, the Minister never considered the crux that would arise if there was not mutual agreement. I believe furthermore that the Minister realises very well that from both the employers' and the employees' point of view, Saturday is the most convenient day for agricultural workers to get the half-holiday. Shop assistants were mentioned a moment ago and it was stated that in one county their half-holiday was on Wednesday and in another county on Thursday. Could any Deputy here tell me if there is a half-holiday on Saturday for shop assistants? I do not believe they could. That is in towns anyway. It is only in the cities where wholesale merchants are concerned.

The agricultural worker is paid on Friday night or on Saturday morning, and if he wants to do any shopping— you must remember there is a Shops Act under which shops are shut at a certain time—an agricultural worker will have to travel perhaps three, four or five miles to the shopping centre. How is he going to be in time to do that shopping if he must work the full day on Saturday? I would treat this as much ado about nothing only for the Minister's attitude on the Committee Stage, and only for his subsequent remarks. The Minister, out of pure cussedness, decided to pin-point Wednesday. The Minister for Agriculture, knowing as he does what it is to carry out the chores of an agricultural labourer, must realise how foolish it was to select a day in the middle of the week for a half-holiday for agricultural workers. I am sure that every Deputy interested in agriculture or who knows anything about employers or employees in the agricultural community, will treat the whole thing as a huge joke. I have no doubt but that the Minister treated the Act as a huge joke when he was framing it. Some of us who tried to be helpful to him pointed out the conditions as they stood in the particular part of the country that we came from and represented. In this regard, I do not mind Deputy Allen. Every circus has a joker. He turns out to be the best acrobat in the circus when he takes off the clown's clothing. Some time or other Deputy Allen will take it off.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not refer to another Deputy in this House as an acrobat in a circus.

Mr. McGilligan

That is a nice title.

Mr. Keane

There is nobody able to do a back jump as well as himself.

Mr. Walsh

There are quite a few on that side.

Mr. Keane

Would the Minister for Agriculture stay quiet in regard to affairs on this side of the House? We have very vivid memories about compulsory tillage——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from amendments Nos. 2 and 3.

Mr. Keane

I am getting away from acrobatics. It was a good thing to hear him taking back everything he said about compulsory tillage. As far as we in County Cork are concerned, I do not believe that, apart from about 1 per cent. of the reactionary farmers, there would be anybody who would cause trouble in regard to the suggested half-holiday. At one time the Minister made good propaganda. That was when he was democratic in his outlook and before he had become so autocratic as a result of his promotion to the post as Minister for Agriculture.

I cannot understand any man, realising the conditions in rural Ireland, putting down an amendment here today that the half-holiday for agricultural workers would be Wednesday. I would like if he clarified at some stage when replying, when it is he expects the week to start and how he is going to deal with the qualifying hours. It looks as if every farmer will have to take account of the number of hours his men are working in order that they may qualify for the half-day. I do not know how he is going to do it. But I know this much, that if the Minister relied, as I asked him to do, on his statistical advisers, the agricultural instructors, the various committees of agriculture throughout the country, I have no doubt but that, in unison, they would recommend Saturday. The only shop assistants who have Saturday as a half-holiday are the wholesale shop assistants in cities, and I think I explained why. Now at this late stage would the Minister not have the moral courage to admit, along with every one of his backbenchers, including Deputy Allen, that Saturday is more suitable? Even Deputy Cogan, who was brought slowly to Damascus and brought back again, for which I give credit to the Minister for having converted him, will not deny that Saturday is the more suitable day. However, I am sure that when this Bill is implemented — and I am going to give credit again to the Minister — although it took a long time to reach its present stage, it will be the foundation of improved amenities for agricultural workers. I conclude by asking the Minister to be sensible and agree to Saturday.

Debate adjourned.