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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 28 Nov 1952

Vol. 135 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Bill, 1952—Committee and Subsequent Stages.

Sections 1, 2 and 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move before Section 4 to insert a new section as follows:—

Where the widow of a person who held a qualifying office does not qualify for a pension under the Acts, owing to the insufficiency of that person's pensionable service, she shall be entitled to receive a widow's pension of the same amount as if that person's pensionable service had been three years.

I think I should say at the beginning that I have considered the cases which were mentioned by Deputy Costello and Deputy Seán Collins on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Bill. I think I have found it possible to provide for one of the cases mentioned by Deputy Costello and I am introducing an amendment to insert a new section in the Bill in lieu of Section 4. This new section will provide a pension for the widow — I want to emphasise it is for the widow — of an ex-Minister or an ex-Parliamentary Secretary whose pensionable service may have been insufficient to qualify his widow for a pension. That will cover not only the specific case mentioned by Deputy Costello but a number of other cases of the widows of persons who held office, perhaps, in the early days of this State whom I overlooked.

I could not see how I could bring it into the Bill until Deputy Costello set my mind working again. We, and all Deputies have reason to be grateful to Deputy Costello for drawing this particular matter to my attention. The section, of course, applies not merely to those who held office in the earlier days but to those who held office subsequently. I think the House as a whole will agree that it is not right that, if a person has held ministerial office or the office of Parliamentary Secretary, his widow should be reduced to complete penury if he should die leaving her unprovided for. The State owes that obligation to the widow of a person who has undertaken the responsibilities of ministerial office or the office of Parliamentary Secretary, and the new section which I am introducing and which will involve the deletion of Section 4, will make that provision.

I have also considered with the utmost sympathy the case raised by Deputy Seán Collins, but I find it would not be possible to provide any ex gratia payment in the one case which could be covered, without doing grave violation to one of the fundamental principles of the Bill, which is that, if a person has secured alternative employment or receives remuneration from State funds by reason of such employment, the pension would be, proportionately abated. The lady concerned in this case has been so employed, largely because we all of us, on both sides, recognised that there was a responsibility, that there had been an oversight and even if the difficulty had not arisen about granting her a formal pension, the pension would not have been payable so long as she held that employment, so that I think the case has been fully covered by the action the Government have already taken.

I was awaiting the amendment to express appreciation on behalf of Deputy Costello of the Minister's action in introducing it. We assume that the Minister has been advised by his legal advisers that the words "owing to the insufficiency of that person's pensionable service" cover the fact that it is not so much the insufficiency of the pensionable service as the fact that disqualification arose in another respect. The Acts, as the Minister is aware, provide for an abatement of ministerial pensions in the event of another pension being payable and I take it the Minister is quite satisfied that the wording covers what we have in mind.

Dealing with the point made by Deputy Sweetman, this does not in any way affect the principle that pensionable service can only be counted once. I want to make that clear. To that extent, the widow of the particular ex-Minister involved will suffer a very slight and perhaps rather insignificant loss, but we felt it better to do that in order to make the wider provision.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Section 4 deleted.
Sections 5, 6 and Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I should like to express my appreciation of the manner in which the Minister approached the subject matter of this Bill. I made my appeal on the basis that, if it were possible to do it in one specific case, without any breach of principle or the creation of any precedent, I should have liked it to be done. I accept the Minister's assurance that these difficulties have arisen and that it is now impossible to do it in the way I suggested, but I should like to say, in passing, that should the problem become more acute, it might be possible at a later stage by a specific Supplementary Estimate of some description to cover the position. I should like the Minister to realise that, if the necessity arises, he will have the complete co-operation of this side in doing anything the Government may think fit.

We have all dealt with this Bill as the fulfilment of an obligation which I have always felt rested on the State to provide for those who served during that very difficult period from 1919 to 1924. I cannot undertake to make any ex gratia grant outside the scope of the statute. If I or any other Minister for Finance did so, life would become just impossible. In the disbursement of public moneys, we have to find ourselves authorised by law to do it and to accept the limitations the law imposes upon us. I do not think the question would arise — of course, we would consider cases on their merits — but I do not want to go further than to say that I or any other Minister would have to take a very strong line against making ex gratia grants.

Could we place on record our appreciation of the suave manner and soothing tones of the Minister for Finance this morning? It is most gratifying.

Question put and agreed to.

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.

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