National Stud Bill, 1953—Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. Under the National Stud Act, 1945, a company named Colucht Groighe Náisiúnta na hÉireann, Teoranta (the Irish National Stud Company, Limited), was set up by the Minister for Agriculture in April, 1946, to carry on, in the interests of the Irish thoroughbred breeding industry, the business of stud farming at the National Stud Farm, Tully, Kildare, or on any other land held by the company. An annual licence to use and occupythe National Stud Farm for this purpose has been granted to the company by the Minister each year since 1946.

Under Section 11 of the 1945 Act, the share capital of the company is limited to £250,000, divided into shares of £1 each. The shares are allotted and issued to the Minister for Finance from time to time according as capital is required by the board of directors. The share capital so far issued amounts to £190,880. This will shortly be increased to £194,130, leaving the amount of share capital unissued at £55,870.

Since 1946, the company have, from time to time, acquired a number of sires and valuable brood mares. The stocking of the National Stud has, however, not yet been completed. The board of directors have been emphasising for some years past that to ensure a profitable future for the company the purchase of a staying sire of the highest class would be needed. Horses of this type are much needed in this country in order to develop the export trade in thoroughbred horses. Some additional brood mares of the highest class are also required to supplement the stock at the National Stud.

Realising that the balance of the share capital unissued would be altogether inadequate for the achievement of these aims, the board of directors have been pressing for some time past for a considerable increase in the authorised share capital of the company.

After full and careful consideration of the financial requirements for the proper development of the National Stud, the Government approved the preparation of a Bill to amend the National Stud Act, 1945, so as to raise to £500,000 the limit of the share capital of the company. This is the main purpose of the Bill now before the House. The Bill also deals with one minor matter, namely, that on the suggestion of the board of directors of the company, the Bill proposes to repeal Section 26 of the 1945 Act, which section has been found to be unsuitable in practice, and to replace it by the more flexible provision set out in Section 3 of the Bill.

The enactment of this Bill is now urgently necessary following on the recent acquisition of the company of a very valuable horse named Tulyar.

It is necessary to point out that for some years past, the directors of the Irish National Stud Company have been assiduously searching for a suitable staying sire of the highest class. As far back as July, 1951, the company were informed that if they purchased a suitable horse, the price of which involved them in expenditure in excess of the company's unissued share capital, the authority of the Government would be sought for the preparation of a Bill to increase the share capital limit of the company. After further representations from the company, and following correspondence between the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Finance, the authority of the Government was obtained on the 1st July, 1952, for the preparation of a Bill to increase the share capital of the company. This was long before the purchase of Tulyar was thought of. The point of these remarks is to emphasise that this Bill would have been necessary anyhow in order to enable the company to proceed with their programme for properly stocking and developing the National Stud.

The breeding of horses in this country is a long-established national industry. The net value of the export trade in horses in 1951 exceeded the £3,000,000 mark. Furthermore a substantial proportion of these exports go to the dollar areas. Exports to these areas in recent times averaged about £200,000 per annum.

The possibility of expanding our export trade in horses, and particularly to the dollar area, has been obvious for some time. It has, however, been realised that, in order to expand that trade, horses of the highest standard must be produced. The Government had this in mind in setting up the National Stud Company in 1946. It is, therefore, the duty of that company to operate a policy designed to develop the industry from the national aspect rather than from the narrower aspectof an ordinary company or private individual.

The essentials for success in the breeding of thoroughbred stock are good soils, suitable climate, skill in management, and good breeding stock. In the first three of these, i.e., soil, climate and skill, we are second to no country in the world. In the fourth, i.e., breeding stock, our position can be substantially improved. There is, for instance, at the moment the need for more extensive production of really high-class thoroughbreds of the longer distance or staying type. This fact is fully realised by all those interested in the industry. The National Stud Company is obviously the organisation best equipped to bring about this improvement. In the purchase of Tulyar they have very definitely taken a step in the right direction and one of which the Government and all others interested in the development of the industry heartily approve.

The price the company has agreed to pay for Tulyar is admittedly high, but considered from the national point of view it must be regarded as a perfectly sound investment. A stallion of this sort would, on the average, remain in service for a period of 12 years. The price of £250,000 to be paid for the horse should therefore be spread over a period of 12 years and would amount to approximately £20,000 per year. As already stated, the net value of our export trade in horses is about £3,000,000 per year. The purchase price of Tulyar when extended over the 12 year period is therefore a very small item as compared with the value of our export trade. In fact the outlay on this horse actually amounts to only two-thirds of 1 per cent, of the total export value of our horses for 12 years at its present level. While there is, of course, a certain amount of risk involved in this purchase, this risk is small as compared with the great possibilities it opens up for the expansion of the industry.

Apart from the national aspect of the purchase of Tulyar by the National Stud Company, there are of course compensating factors for the stud itself. The earning value of Tulyar atstud is estimated at £16,000 per annum, and may possibly go as high as £20,000 for a period of 12 years. Furthermore the National Stud Company has some ten very high-class brood mares, some of which will be mated to Tulyar. The female progeny of such matings will be extremely valuable stock to retain at Tully for stud purposes. Those not required for this purpose and the colts from such matings, when offered for sale, will undoubtedly fetch very high prices.

We are in the fortunate position of having secured a very high international reputation for the quality of the race horses we produced. The produce of Irish studs have over the years won the most valuable races in very many lands, including all the English classics and the most important races in the U.S.A. In the latter country thoroughbred breeding has in recent times reached an extremely high level, largely due to the fact that breeders in that country purchased from the Aga Khan some years ago three horses: Blenheim, Mahmoud and Bahram. The three horses in question were bred in the Aga Khan's studs in County Kildare, and during their racing careers before export all three had won Epsom Derbys as well as other very important races. Both in racecourse performance and pedigree Tulyar is definitely a better horse than any of the three. For that reason American breeders showed great anxiety to secure Tulyar for their studs. In view of the American interest in the horse we may anticipate very keen demand from that country for his produce when it comes on the market a few years hence.

Apart from the valuable export trade in horses stud farming has a high labour content; the output per acre is much above average and furthermore the produce in the form of thoroughbred horses is an excellent dollar earner. As regards labour, a review of some of our leading studs has shown that one man is employed for each 20 acres or so, where in farms of 200 acres and upwards over the country as a whole one man is employed on each 42 acres. The review has furthershown that the earnings of a stud farm through service fees and yearling sales amount to upwards of £30 per acre as against £12 per acre in output over the country as a whole. In addition to the earnings from horses there is, of course, on our large studs a considerable turnover from cattle feeding. Furthermore stud farms purchase very large quantities of oats, hay and straw, and at good prices, from farmers in the surrounding districts. The total amount paid for such items at some of our leading studs would run from £10,000 to £20,000 per annum.

Racing is of course closely associated with breeding and is also a valuable source of employment. There are at the moment over 2,000 horses in training with a labour content of 1,200 to 1,400 men. In one large racing establishment the wage bill amounts to upwards of £12,000 per annum, while the purchase of forage amounts to an almost equal sum.

The values of high-class horses for stud in recent years have been about £120,000 to £160,000. The horse Nasrullah, sold for export after having been used for some years for service here was about the latter sum. The horse, The Phoenix, was syndicated at home at about the same sum. The Aga Khan's horse, Palestine, a good winner for distances not exceeding one mile, is syndicated here at £120,000. The only horse in Europe that approaches Tulyar to any extent in merit is the French horse, Tantieme. This horse is now at stud in France at a fee of £600 which amounts to an earning capacity of £24,000 per annum. While his racecourse performances are really good, his pedigree falls entirely short of that of Tulyar.

As already mentioned, the enactment of this Bill is now very urgent and I commend it to the Dáil.

Mr. Dillon

It is no use closing our eyes to the fact that the proposal to pay £250,000 sterling for a sire horse is an unusual proposal and one calling for very careful consideration and when that consideration comes to be given to the project it should extend not only to the contra arguments but to the arguments in favour of the proposition as well.

This proposal was of so exceptional a character that I felt bound to ask myself in prior consultation with my own colleagues in the Fine Gael Party what advice would I have tendered if I were Minister for Agriculture? The fairest thing I can do now is to report to the House faithfully so far as I can what I would have done if that proposal had been made to me by the Board of the National Stud. I would have asked the board: Is that a unanimous or a majority recommendation? If it was a majority recommendation, then I would have directed them to dismiss it from their minds. If it was a unanimous recommendation I would have felt bound to advise the Minister for Finance that his choice lay between purchasing Tulyar or winding up the National Stud because the National Stud in this country could not be run on second best. If the Minister for Finance had asked me what my advice was as to whether or not the stud should be wound up my advice would have been that the stud should not be wound up, and if our technical experts recommended that this was the best— and what the Minister for Agriculture says to-day is perfectly true, the directors of the stud have been for many years looking for a sire of staying quality—I would have accepted the explanation of the exceptional price asked, that the Americans are much interested in blood of this character; and if my experience counts for anything, I can well imagine them bidding for this horse £5,000 or £10,000 more than anyone else would offer.

I do not think it is any use trying to disguise the fact that £250,000 for a racehorse, however good, can fairly be described as a fantastic price but in the bloodstock industry you have got to ask yourself this question—certainly I would if I were Minister for Agriculture: "Can you run a national stud with anything but the best?" Secondly, when you come into the field of competition for the best and the price is more than you can afford to pay, in conscience I think you are bound to ask yourself the question: "Can I legitimately ask the Government tokeep the National Stud in existence?" And I think you would have come to the conclusion the day you could no longer afford to buy the best, to advise the stud to be wound up and the business left in private hands.

I think it is right to warn the House —I think, perhaps, the Minister will confirm what I now say inasmuch as he omitted to mention it in his opening observations—we are, in substance, whatever the Minister's brief says, asked to-day to vote money for the purchase of Tulyar or to refuse money for the purchase of Tulyar. There is no use in our trying to shoulder off our responsibilities in this matter by saying that if the purchase of Tulyar was not in question, the House would still be asked to vote money for the stud.

Mr. Walsh

We would have come in with this Bill anyway.

Mr. Dillon

I am prepared to accept any responsibility which a decision on this involves. The House is entitled to know before it takes a decision on this matter and to bear this in mind when it gives its vote, that it is inherent in the business of bloodstock breeding that you buy with the best judgment you can secure. We have good judgment at our disposal in the Board of the National Stud, and with the best judgment you can procure you purchase a sire horse and you pay a quarter of a million pounds for it. The yearlings of the first year have the value that the world puts on them. The same is true of his yearlings of the second year, but when the yearlings of the third year come to the sale ring, his yearlings of the first year will be running as two-year-olds. The value of his third crop of yearlings will be fixed by the performance of the two-year-olds. In the case of Tulyar, owing to the special fact that he is purchased for his staying qualities, judgment in his case may be suspended partially, at least, until the fourth year. People in the racing world see how the progeny races as three-year-olds, but from that hour forth his value as a sire is settled and we may have discovered we have bought a cab-horse. I know of no means available to human ingenuity whereby that risk can be avoided. I want to say, with my eyes wide opento that risk, I still believe the alternatives before us are to buy this horse or close the stud, and if my advice were sought I would advise not to close the stud.

When we are asked to pass this Bill I wonder has the Minister been wholly disingenuous when he spoke of our exports of horseflesh being worth over £3,000,000 sterling last year. Of those exports, how much belonged to that category which might properly be identified with the breeding strain in Tulyar? Of that £3,000,000 worth of horses, how many can we expect to see contesting with the progeny of Tulyar?

I do not think it is true to say that the Government and all others heartily approve this purchase. I think there are a lot of people who disapprove of it and that there are a lot of people who, in good faith, feel it is extravagance. There are a lot of people who have the feeling that the project to pay £250,000 for a horse while there are many unemployed and while there is depression in trade is to do something that a democratic Government should not justify. I reject that. There are abundant resources in this country if they were properly used to provide good employment for our people. It is not for want of any resources that our hands are still lying idle at the present day. It is not for want of resources that this country is in a state of depression. It is not for want of resources that we face the crisis of emigration. There was no unemployment, there was no emigration, there was no crisis when the inter-Party Government disposed of the resources of our people and used them for our people. But the £250,000 that is spent on Tulyar will fructify no more in the hands of this Government than the hundreds of million pounds they could dispose of if they had the courage to invest them in our country instead of investing them in the other ends of the earth.

I think it is only to throw dust in our people's eyes to say that the use of the £250,000, if it can be justified as an investment in one branch of the live-stock industry of this country, is in any sense inimical to the employment of our people. On the contrary, if I werein office to-morrow, I would ask this House to invest £40,000,000 in the agricultural industry and that investment would increase employment and increase the standard of living for every section of our people. It is only if we can satisfy ourselves that this investment is not in the best interests of the live-stock industry that we can challenge it. To say we cannot afford it I think is the purest nonsense. We have plenty of resources if we had the will to use them. The trouble is not that they are being spent improvidently by purchasing horse-flesh for the development of our bloodstock industry, but that they are being spent by palsied hands who have not the courage to believe that capital investment in our own country pays dividends not only for the well-to-do but for the humblest creature born into any home in Ireland.

We have got to face the fact that there are people who are not easy in their minds on this question. There are lots of people who have the opinion that, from the point of view of politics, it might serve my purpose much better to try to raise all the stink I could about it and that there is plenty of sentiment down the country which would rally to a campaign of that kind. I believe it would be wrong to do that.

I believe the Dáil is entitled to demand from me what my attitude would be if I occupied the position of Minister for Agriculture, and I propose to tell the Dáil what I should do. I first want to ask the Minister some questions with a certain amount of diffidence, though I believe I have a right to do so. One of the most serious questions is whether it is intended to race this horse this year or next year. I want to make this case. We are investing £250,000 sterling in a horse's reputation which cannot stand too high. He has done everything that a horse of his breeding and age could do, and he appears to have everything that a horse of his performances and breeding could claim. I want to suggest to the Minister that he has nothing to gain, but everything to lose, by racing him this season.

Mr. Walsh

I do not make the decision.

Mr. Dillon

That is why I want to make the case to the Minister. I am altogether in favour of giving the board the widest autonomy possible and I am not prepared to press the Minister to interfere with the board in the exercise of that autonomy but I do not believe the board would ask Oireachtas Éireann for £500,000 and then regard it as presumptuous on the part of Oireachtas Éireann to express an opinion in regard to this matter. I am not asking the Minister to give any directions to the board but I am asking him to give his opinion as frankly and as openly as I am giving mine. I do not doubt that the board would have a respectful regard for these opinions, even though they might have to disregard them in the discharge of their duty. I do not think there is any need for anxiety on that score and I think it is a matter to which we are entitled to advert.

I remember when I was Minister another horse of this kind came on the market. I do not believe he was a horse of this standing but he was a horse of this character and breeding. I remember the board, with my approval, considered the payment of a very substantial sum for him. The owner, meanwhile, permitted him another race in the Derby class in France. He was beaten by a cat's whisker at the post and his price dropped £50,000. In fact, our board determined they would not touch him. He was afterwards bought for a sum of £50,000 less than we would have considered paying for him if he had not suffered that defeat. I am not, therefore, presumptuous in saying that you are here dealing with a horse which has everything, as he stands at present, if he went to stud this year. You have got to be very sure that you are going to add something very material to his value and reputation before you risk losing all that he has acquired by some fortuitous accident— a slip on a greasy patch or something of that sort—in the course of a single race to which he might be committed in the current year.

I know the case can be made that a great many mares with whom it would be desirable to mate this horse have already had arrangements made forthem in the ordinary breeding programme for this year. If that is so, it makes it all the easier for the stud to use his services for our own stud mares and also perhaps to give an opportunity to small breeders whose breeding arrangements could be more easily dislocated than those of a more fashionable breeder.

There is another point which I think is immensely important. A question has often been raised in this House as to what is the reason that sires standing at the National Stud have been made available to Lord Derby, the Aga Khan and a variety of other wealthy breeders and how is that justified. It is well that we should look for a moment at that problem in the light of our contemplated purchase of Tulyar. When I came to examine that question, I was quite satisfied that the procedure adopted by the Board of the National Stud was prudent and necessary in respect to Royal Charger. In the case of Royal Charger, the horse was bought much more than is the case with Tulyar on the judgment, the very highly skilled judgment, of the Board of the National Stud. Their judgment would not at all have received the universal assent in regard to Royal Charger that it has received in regard to Tulyar. Therefore, their first duty and purpose, once Royal Charger joined the stud, was to establish his name and reputation as a sire and to demonstrate that their judgment in regard to his potentialities was well founded. To do that they had to ensure that the horse was mated with mares of quality so that he could prove that he was as good a sire as they thought he was.

These mares were available only from the stables of wealthy people because in order to determine that a mare was the kind of mare which would transmit the qualities that were expected from the sire Royal Charger, the performance of the mare's progeny has to be seen. That meant that the mare had to be at stud for at least three years before her progeny could be tested in racing. When the progeny had been tested and had proved themselves of the highest quality, fashionable breeders secured these mares and paid fancy prices for them. That meantthat it was only breeders like the Aga Khan and the Earl of Derby who usually had such mares. If you excluded such persons from the principal sire in the National Stud, in effect you excluded the sires of the National Stud from all the best mares in Britain and Ireland. It was therefore decided that for the first two or three years, one half of the nominations would go to fashionable people at an economic fee and one half of the nominations would be balloted for amongst the relatively small Irish breeders at, I think, a lower fee. If the horses's potentialities had been demonstrated on the racecourse all the nominations, however, would be balloted for amongst the small breeders.

I want to ask the Minister can he tell us to-day what policy it is proposed to follow with Tulyar. The plain fact is that there is a gold mine in Tulyar, because for the first two years before his progeny is tested breeders are going to gamble on the fact that Tulyar's yearlings are worth what they fetch. The man who has a Tulyar yearling to offer at a sale next year or the year after, is going to sell a pig in a poke and and it is a golden pig and it is a golden poke, to all appearances. Nobody will know until later on whether the pig and the poke are gold bricks or bricks of gold. Everyone will pay for them in the first two years on the presumption that they are bits of gold. Who is going to get the nominations this year and next year? I venture to submit to the Minister for Agriculture—if we are going to be consistent in this matter— that if the board determines that it is still essential to procure very fashionably bred mares from the wealthier stables for this horse that no more than one-quarter of the total nominations should be made available for that purpose and that three-quarters should be balloted for amongst Irish breeders who have suitable mares to put in the ballot. I do not press that. I realise that, perhaps, some technical aspect of this matter may have escaped my attention and which has been urged on the Minister for Agriculture. I am quite satisfied that whatever arrangement has been made with hisapproval is the best for the State. I think, however, it is reasonable to direct the Minister's attention to the matter and to ask him to consider it.

In the newspaper reports of this transaction it was suggested that the Aga Khan had, in addition to the £250,000 which was the price he set upon the horse, reserved certain nominations for his own mares. If that is true, it would represent a substantial additional consideration for the horse. If we are voting money for its purchase, we ought to know that. I can well understand that, in certain circumstances, such a stipulation might be made. From many points of view the fact that such a stipulation was made would, in itself, enhance the value of the horse because it would be a public testimonial that the breeder and racer of the horse set so high a premium on the horse that he was prepared to bespeak so many nominations at the regular fee.

I have made my position perfectly clear. In a matter of this kind I think none of us need regard ourselves as bound by Party affiliations. Whether or not we purchase Tulyar does not seem to me to be a matter of fundamental policy between the principal Government Party and the principal Opposition Party. I invite those who accept my view on all sides of the House to support this Bill—conscious of the risks we take, clearly understanding the bargain we are making and the purposes to which we set our hand. I think it would be a poor thing for this Parliament and for this country if Deputies on either side of the House were being coerced by the Whips to vote on this issue on the grounds of Party loyalty. I do not think Party loyalty arises in this matter at all. If Deputies on either side of the House feel that they cannot, in conscience, endorse the purchase on these terms, I hope they will be afforded every facility for voting in that sense without any suggestion that, in so doing, they have committed any treason on their colleagues or the Party to which they belong.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Dunne.

Mr. MacBride

Before we go any further, would the Minister care, without prejudicing his right to conclude, to reply to the questions which Deputy Dillon asked?

Mr. Walsh

I will reply at the finish.

Mr. MacBride

It might be useful to hear the replies now.

Mr. Dunne

I want to make our position perfectly clear. The Labour Party are opposed to this Bill. No matter what fine words are spun around this purchase, the vast majority of the ordinary people of this country are against it. The Minister for Agriculture made a very determined attempt to wrap the green flag around Tulyar. He described the tremendous service, in many senses of the word, which this horse is going to give this country. He carefully avoided, however, making reference to a number of important matters.

A fortnight ago I took occasion to raise this matter originally in the House and to ask the Minister some questions which I thought were in need of an answer. I expected to hear some replies to those questions in the course of the Minister's Second Reading speech to-day. I am still waiting to hear them.

The Labour Party's point of view on this purchase is that it demonstrates the Government's complete lack of a sense of proportion in regard to the importance of things. The Government has seen fit to determine to take from the Exchequer—an Exchequer which is assembled from an overtaxed people —£250,000 for the purchase of this horse. The Government has seen fit to pay £250,000—and many thousands more, of which we know nothing whatsoever, in incidental expenses—for the purpose, not of relieving unemployment: we have 90,000 unemployed signing on at the labour exchanges. Every single town in Ireland and every single rural area in Ireland is seriously hit by unemployment. The Deputies on the Government side of the House are aware of the unemployment position as well as the Deputies on the Labour Benches and on the other Opposition Benches. We are facing anunemployment crisis which is sliding still further into the valley of depression with every week that passes: unemployment is increasing at the rate of 1,000 per week. In the light of that——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not raise the unemployment problem on the discussion of the National Stud Bill.

Mr. Dunne

This Government has seen fit to make £250,000 available for the purchase of this horse. In this instrument now before us, they are proposing to make available £250,000 for the purchase of a horse at a time when we have the greatest ever number of unemployed in need of relief, when industry is sinking faster and faster into depression——

Mr. Briscoe

Nonsense.

Mr. Dunne

——when employers are letting men off by the hundred every week, when employers cannot get credit from the banks to pay the wages of their workers, when the housing programme is coming to a grinding standstill in every part of the country. In the face of all these severe difficulties, this Government proposes to pay for a horse what might, to some people, be regarded as a very small sum, but which, to the people of this country, is a very large and a very substantial sum. A quarter of a million pounds for a horse.

It is very easy for people who spend the greater part of their lives in the cocoon of politics to forget the real interests of the people. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Irish bloodstock industry is of tremendous importance to this country. Neither I nor any other Deputy in my Party would for a moment suggest that any hindrance should be placed on the honest development and promotion of its interests.

We say, however, that there is a time and a place for everything. I do not think that this step can be justified. In the light of the circumstances in which we are living, with every member of this House receiving requests daily from unemployed people to help themto obtain jobs and with people being knocked out of employment every other week, a purchase of this sort betrays something that is completely grotesque, to use a favourite expression of Deputy Dillon's. It shows a lack of touch with the problems that exist. We have suspected for a long time that members of the Government Party have been out of touch with these problems. I want to say in fairness, not all of them. I do say, however, that certain of the governing minds of the Government Party have been out of touch with these problems. It is only a mentality that was completely dead to the facts of the situation, as it exists in this country to-day, that would embark on this project of making £250,000 available in this particular instance. If times were better, and if we had full employment, or the relatively full employment that we had three and a half years ago, then possibly a case could be made for the expenditure of a very considerable sum of money.

It is interesting to read what people who are alleged to be experts in the racing world have to say in regard to this purchase. We have been told that the Americans were after this horse, and that if we had not offered this astronomical sum we would have no chance of getting him. What truth is there in that? How do we know what the Americans offered, or if they offered anything at all? I would like to hear what the Minister has to say on that. We have not heard of any announcements from America to that effect.

The Minister says the cost of this horse will be approximately £20,000 a year over a period of 12 years. I wonder would the Aga Khan take £20,000 a year on the chance of this horse remaining in good health and producing worthy progeny? I wonder would he gamble on the chance that nothing would happen to him which might render him worthless? It is hardly likely that he would, because the Aga Khan is possibly too good a businessman for that.

I described this purchase originallyas a gamble. That is all it is. It is nothing more than a gamble. People who are influential and knowledgeable in the racing world have written to me and to other Deputies on this matter. One man who has written to me is a well-known figure in Irish racing. He rays:—

"I happen to know that the price to the Irish Stud was bolstered up by the sight of another so-called bid which, in turn, was bolstered up by another bid which I do not believe was ever seriously meant."

In other words, the Irish Stud was bluffed. That, at any rate, is the view of one person who is not unknown at top level in the racing world.

Mr. Walsh

Tell us who he is.

Well, at any rate we are getting an answer. Is that not a fact, that he has priority as regards nominations?

Mr. Walsh

Not at all.

Mr. Briscoe

Where did you get that information?

Mr. Dunne

I did not get it where you get yours, anyway. I am glad to see that the Lord Mayor of Cork is enjoying this discussion because he nearly missed his nomination last year. He found it hard to get it.

Mr. McGrath

We heard that last week.

Mr. Dunne

Although there has been a great deal of talk and propaganda set going in this House and elsewhere through the country in order to whitewash this particular piece of work, is it not quite obvious that this business has discomfited the members of the Government Party although they do not want to admit it? Is it not a fact that we had here a very hard bargain and that it was not a question, as some have suggested, of love for dear old Ireland? This was, in fact, a hard bargain. At the point when £245,000 was reached the gentlemen whom we sent across,worthy gentlemen, no doubt, and men deserving of——

I referred last week to the record of this horse. Nobody will deny that it seems to be a good animal but, as far as we can judge from the record of this horse, there is no guarantee whatsoever that his progeny will be valuable.

Mr. McMenamin

Nobody could guarantee it.

Mr. Dunne

Nobody could guarantee it. That is why I say this is no more than a gamble. The importance of the bloodstock industry has been referred to. It is an important part of our economy but does it compare in any sense with the agricultural industry as a whole? Does its employment potential compare in any way with the employment potential of the agricultural industry? Does it compare with the employment potential of the dairying industry?

Would it not have occurred to the Minister for Agriculture and the Government that this £250,000 and all the incidental expenses, which willprobably amount to another score of thousands, would have been far better invested in trying to improve the strain of our dairy herds, as has been suggested to me in very many parts of the country, in trying to inject some life into the building industry in the City of Dublin or Cork or elsewhere, in providing employment for workers who are unemployed in any kind of industry, or even in establishing an industry of which we have not as yet experience?

Can it be seriously suggested that it displays a sense of responsibility on the part of the Government when they spend in this way this huge amount of money, which has been extorted by the oppressive taxes of last year from the taxpayers and from the working people? This money has been taken from the workers in order that it should be spent in this frivolous manner.

I am quite ready to accept, and nobody denies, that the directors of the National Stud are correct in their attitude. Naturally they are anxious to promote the interests of that stud and that enterprise to the best of their ability. The Minister, however, has a bigger responsibility than the National Stud. The whole nation should be the Minister's responsibility.

Speaking on behalf of the Labour Party, I think I can say that I speak as well the minds of the vast majority of plain people in the Cities of Dublin and Cork and elsewhere. They can see no excuse for this wild extravagance on the part of the Government.

Where will the nominations for this sire go? Who will get them? We witnessed a remarkable event here to-day. Deputy Dillon did not make it clear whether he was representing the Fine Gael Party but Deputy Dillon and the Minister were at one. We observed the phenomenon—the rapt attention given to Deputy Dillon by members of the Fianna Fáil Party while Deputy Dillon was making a better fist of defending the purchase of Tulyar than the Minister made. It was rather unusual. Coming events cast their shadows. Deputy Dillon inquired what it was proposed to do in regard to these nominations and suggested to the Minister that only one-fourthshould be reserved for the wealthy stables and that three-fourths of the nominations each year should be made available by ballot or some such system to the smaller breeders.

Mr. McMenamin

Having suitable mares, he added.

Mr. S. Collins

Proved mares, is the correct phrase.

I see no obligation on us to add to the immense wealth of the Aga Khan. He is one of the wealthiest racehorse owners in the world. To him, I am sure, £250,000 is a flea-bite, chicken-feed. The Irish people are bowed down with the oppressive curse of a Fianna Fáil Government on them, for their sins.

Mr. McGrath

What about another meeting in O'Connell Street?

Mr. O'Higgins

He could have it; you could not.

Mr. Dunne

Many of the people will be remitted very considerable periods in Purgatory which they would have to do were it not for the fact that theFianna Fáil Government have been here. The people have been forced against their will—they have not been consulted—to make this contribution to the coffers of this Oriental potentate.

We oppose this measure because we think it is untimely and ill-advised. It shows a lack of a sense of proportion on the part of this Government when they spend money in this way when there are 90,000 unemployed people, when emigration is at a point that it has not reached for some years, when industry is sinking week after week. We of the Labour Party will oppose with every means in our power the passage of this Bill as a protest against the Government's complete contempt for and disregard of the real need of the people, that is, the provision of employment at decent wages and decent living conditions for all.

Mr. Briscoe

I was hoping that Deputy Dunne would make a good and serious case from the point of view he professes to hold. I am sure the House will agree with me that, bad as Deputy Dunne has been on occasions in this House on certain matters, to-day he sunk to the lowest level of form to which I have ever seen him sink.

Mr. Dunne

Let us see what you can do.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy wound up on a note which aroused, I am sure, in many of our minds a question as to what was the main ground for his opposition to the purchase of this horse. Is it that he really is concerned about the unemployed, or is it because this horse has been purchased, as he says, from an Oriental potentate to whom this amount of money is a mere flea-bite? That is the extent of the distance from one end of his brain to the other.

I want to approach this matter from the point of view of common sense and fairness. The Deputy spoke about letters he has had from many people, including one of the most distinguished and leading horse breeders in the country. He also quoted from a tipster on horse races in a newspaper. I have also heard from very many people. I have heard from one of the leading, ifnot the leading, firms engaged in the export of bloodstock from this country and I want to place on record what is in this letter. Deputy Dunne can have the letter so that he can see it is authentic. The letter which is dated 16th February, 1953, and addressed to me, is as follows:—

"Brown horse Tulyar (1949).

I regret not being at this office when you called this morning, but my day's work begins at ——, where we have 47 horses in training.

However, as promised, I append below my views regarding the deal for above.

The shortcomings of breeders were very evident some years ago when such horses were allowed to leave the country as Blenheim, Mahmoud, Bahram and Alibhai. There was no Irish National Stud in those days and the leading breeders preferred to send their best mares out of the country to be mated with top stallions, and I know of many instances where some of these men paid as much as £1,000 for single nominations.

The directors of our National Stud are, in my opinion, to be complimented on proceeding so determinedly, and successfully, in the acquiring of this great horse. For all-round qualities there has been no racehorse during, perhaps, the last 50 years to compare with Tulyar— beyond question are his intelligence, symmetry, soundness of limbs and constitution, resource and versatility. With ordinary luck his first contingent of yearlings must, to my way of thinking, yield an aggregate of £100,000.

On the question of value it is interesting to recall the figures at which some stallions have been syndicated in recent years: The Phoenix, £164,000; Persian Gulf, £100,000; Migoli, £100,000; Avenger II, £100,000; Combat, £60,000; Marsyas II, £104,000; Pearl Diver, £80,000; My Love, £150,000; Niccolo Dell-Arca, £152,000; Torbido, £144,000; Dante, £100,000; Alycidon, £120,000; Nimbus, £150,000; Vieux Manoir, £88,000; Supreme Court,£120,000; My Babu, £160,000; Stardust, £120,000.

In 1944 —— and —— bought Nasrullah for £15,000 in equal shares and shortly afterwards sold the horse to —— for £19,000. This temperamental stallion was later disposed of for, I believe, the equivalent of £160,000 when ten years old, and like all those named above could not compare with Tulyar in merit, soundness nor sense.

Accordingly, I consider the purchase justifiable and think it would have been a grave reflection on those chiefly concerned with the bloodstock industry had the opportunity been missed."

Some of the names of these horses will ring a bell even in Deputy Dunne's mind.

Mr. S. Collins

That is from Bertie Kerr.

Mr. Briscoe

I must not mention names. I will hand over the letter to you to read to show that it is an authentic, genuine firm, which is regarded as being the leading blood-stock firm in this country. That is not from an unknown and unamed individual who writes and says that he talked to Mary So-and-So and to Ann So-and-So and that they would not believe it. These are the facts.

I want to compliment the National Stud and I do so as a Deputy representing a mainly working-class area. Everybody in this country, the masses to whom the Deputy referred, are proud that this is an Irish bred horse and that it is coming home to help the breeding industry in this country in which it was born. Every man who puts a shilling on a horse knows about this horse and is glad to see it coming home. I do not know whether the Deputy has taken into account the fact that we regard the important live-stock breeding industry mainly from the point of view of the export potential of it. I think the House ought to make Deputy Dunne some recompense for the fact that he has helped to advertise further the home of this horse throughout the whole world because of the controversy which he has broughtabout in regard to it. This horse has been written up in every country where people can read and it has brought about great and valuable publicity for this country because of its acquisition for the National Stud.

Mr. Dunne

Nothing about the price.

A State-owned national stud does not enter into a syndicate with the public. It must carry on its affairs in its own way and not in partnership with other individuals.

Mr. Kyne

Why did they not buy the horse outright?

Mr. Briscoe

What does the Deputy want? Does he want the bloodstock breeders to go into competition with the State in the purchase of this horse and then confine it to a few fortunate individuals as distinct from having it available to all the breeders, large and small?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

To only 20 breeders.

Mr. Briscoe

It is true that the National Stud, when considering the purchase of a horse, must be able to prove, as far as proof can be adduced, that it is aiming to get the very best and that it has, in fact, secured the very best. As far as records go, nobody can deny that this horse is the best that can be got. Deputy Dunne talked about the horse turning out to be a cab-horse. We all know of a cab-horse that turned out to be a Grand National winner. It is a gamble.

Deputy Dunne reached great heights of eloquence in his indignation, and he asserted that this money was being taken out of the Exchequer, out of the taxation of our people. This is a capital investment. The money is not taken out of ordinary revenue. I do not know whether that will make any difference to Deputy Dunne's song or to the chorus he will put to it from now on, but I think he should at least change his tune. This capital will be invested in the National Stud. Like any undertaking run on business lines, the greater the activities the greater the capital requirements. Capital is not extinguished by the purchase of a particular item. This horse is a capital item and the National Stud will, of course, increase its capital assets by £250,000.

Deputy Dunne speaks as if not one single penny of State money is being devoted to industry or potential employment. He forgets that £50,000,000 is invested by the State in the electricity undertaking. There are many millions invested in other undertakings, all of which give employment and help to relieve unemployment. I take it the Deputy was here to-day at question time. Was he not amazed to hear that the Leader of the Labour Party, when he was a Minister, unanimously agreed with the Cabinet in rejecting the expenditure of State money, an expenditure which would have given considerable employment in the City of Dublin? There was no outcry about that.

Deputy Dunne is one of those who ridicules large-scale Government expenditure for the relief of unemployment. I hope to see our Government very soon make available a large sum of money to deal with the Dublin Castle problem and incidentally provide large-scale employment.

I am entitled to my opinion just as Deputy Dunne is entitled to his, but Deputy Dunne gives his opinion as a matter of fact and in the form of an assertion. Deputy Dunne said this was a scandalous purchase at a time when our industries are perishing. I deny that our industries are perishing but, even if thatwere true, would it be right to allow the horse-breeding industry to perish? Is it not quite clear that this industry will be strengthened and revivified by the purchase of this horse? All of us who are in favour of this project hope that it will turn out as good a sire as it was a racehorse. Deputy Dunne almost tried to sabotage the horse. He quoted from some individual who writes under a nom de plumeto show the dangers inherent in the purchase of this animal. No matter who bought it, all of us would wish that it would continue to be a successful horse and continue to bring credit to this country. It is an Irish-bred horse and people should not try to put doubts into the minds of others and particularly into the minds of those who might be considering securing nominations during the first or second year. It will be a gamble in the first years. After that people will know and they will be able to decide whether or not to send their mares to this sire because of the experience gained by others. It will be time enough then to judge performance and not try to force the public now into believing that the horse will be a failure.

The Deputy brought out some reference to the dam side, never once a winner produced. The fact is that Tulyar with the breeding it has, which is recognised to be what is called in racing language the most brilliant breeding, has proved to be a most brilliant horse, and let us hope it will be a most brilliant sire. Deputy Dunne made a retort to an interjection by Deputy McGrath, the Lord Mayor of Cork, which brought great laughter from us. I wonder is Deputy Dunne jealous that he could not get the nomination which Deputy McGrath got.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. O'Donnell)

Will the Deputy come back to the Bill?

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy wanted the purchase of this horse to have a guarantee of success attached to it. That was too much for Deputy McMenamin who said you cannot get a guarantee of that nature. That is the approach we heard about this question.

I understand that the manner inwhich the National Stud operates is this. They select a certain number of mares of the very highest breeding to mate with their good sires. They ask people then to apply for nominations. From the nominations they get, which may be many hundreds, they first of all cull mares which they think are not suitable for mating with the particular sire. Having culled what they would call unsuitable mares, they put the rest in the hat for the ordinary breeders, large and small, and where the small breeders are concerned, they are pulled out of the hat and if the small breeder gets it it is at a reduced fee, whereas the big wealthy stables, to which Deputy Dunne has been referring as if it was a privileged class, a preference to a preferred class, pay the higher prices where they have the best mares in order that a reduced sire fee can be subsidised for the smaller and poorer of our breeders.

The Deputy does not seem to know as much about the running of the National Stud as he should have known when he stood up to oppose this particular Bill. I began by saying I recognised the fact that I represented mainly a working-class constituency. I know that every attempt will be made to misconstrue and to abuse the situation, particularly where there are working-class people and many unemployed. It will be said the purchase of this horse is affecting their bread and butter. On the last occasion when Deputy Dunne spoke in this House he said with a most magnificent Shakesperian gesture: "We asked for milk and they gave us Tulyar."

Mr. O'Leary

What about the civil servants?

Mr. Dunne

Is it not true?

Mr. Briscoe

I agree with Deputy Briscoe that it is a gamble. No Government Department should indulge in anything in the nature of gambling and the people should not be asked to act as guarantors for anything that carries an element of gambling.

It is astonishing that the Government should come in here at a moment's notice and in the most flippant way introduce a measure of this kind, to the accompaniment of jokes and laughs on the part of certain Deputies on Government Benches, while at the same time many of our factories are closing and dispensing with their staff. The Minister for Finance, who is squeezing every penny of taxation he can from the people and taking the very bit off the table of children up and down the country, agrees to give this £250,000 for this horse. First and foremost, does he know what is the fate in store for this horse?

Mr. Briscoe

He does not know whether it is sterile or not.

Mr. Blowick

Deputy Briscoe will get his answer to the flippancy he has displayed in dealing with a serious problem here, when Deputies on this side are trying to bring home to the Government the serious issues that are involved. I trust the people of his constituency will give him the answer which he so richly deserves.

Mr. Briscoe

They will give it to you, too.

Mr. S. Collins

I think it is about time we put this discussion back into its proper perspective. I could not disagree more with anything than I disagree with Deputy Blowick. I do not think that Deputy Blowick has addressed his mind to this Bill at all;I think it is unfortunate that in a serious national situation, where we have an inept and incompetent Government dealing with unemployment, we are dealing with that problem in a wrong atmosphere.

This Bill proposes to do one thing only. It proposes to increase the capital of the National Stud. We know that the main purpose of that increase in the immediate future is to complete the deal for the purchase of Tulyar. I believe that the purchase of Tulyar is one of the finest decisions that the National Stud could take. I shall try to prove conclusively why I think so.

I have heard talk about gamblers. I have heard Deputy Blowick say that he will not associate with anything that is a gamble. The very establishment of the National Stud itself, once it went into breeding, once it took over the land at Tully, can be described as nothing but a gamble—if that is the interpretation you want to put on a State effort to increase the level of your bloodstock.

I believe that the Minister, inadvertently, and the members of the House in general, have been led away completely from the basic argument that must be at issue in this case. Let us consider the facts. The National Stud is going to increase its capital from £250,000 to £500,000. It has very valuable properties. We already have a concrete indication in this country of how shrewd, practical and useful to the national effort the advice of the Board of the National Stud has proved to be. Deputy Dillon referred to the purchase by the National Stud some years ago of a horse called Royal Charger. There was a good deal of scepticism and criticism when that horse was purchased at a price then considered very excessive in view of the horse's performance on the racecourse.

Never has anything been more justified than that purchase. I would say that the use of the stallion and its ultimate achievement is a real tribute to the judgment and foresight of the people who run the National Stud.In Tulyar you have a completely different proposition. Let people make what capital they like out of side issues, I want to say that there is no horse in the world nor has there been for generations with the racecourse performance of Tulyar. Come away from that altogether. His blood line is impeccable. His breeding is the choicest you will find. The actual conformation, configuration and general shape of the horse, even though it is considered by some to be slightly on the small side, cannot be flawed. I think it is unreasonable, unfair and, in fact, a distortion to try to suggest that there is any balance against that horse's proving at stud a most valuable and useful sire. It is true that the horse might turn out to be infertile.

Mr. Briscoe

That is the gamble.

Mr. S. Collins

That could happen. What the House seems to forget, however, is that there is no doubt at all that that is one of the horse's activities that can completely be insured against. We cannot insure against the horse's not being a success at stud but certainly we can insure against his being infertile.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

At what price?

Mr. S. Collins

I am not an insurance agent, with due respect. Consider Tulyar's potential earning, if he lives up in any way to the performance that he has given. Consider his earning potential for the National Stud itself—leaving out altogether the question of what fees he may earn for the service of mares outside the National Stud. Say the National Stud mates six, seven, eight, nine or ten of its own choice mares with Tulyar. Let us consider what has been described as the "gold mine period" of the untried first two years.

What is the earning potential for the National Stud itself of the yearlings to be thrown by those mares in the two years? I venture to suggest, without any question of gambling at all, that if Tulyar is fertile at stud and if the National Stud—exercising, as it has exercised in the past, its own discretion in the choice of mares for its stallions—gets anything like six, seven or eight yearlings per year for that two years, the sale of these yearlings in the sales rings will make a very effective return towards the diminution of the capital expended on the purchase of Tulyar.

It is true that the purchase of Tulyar can be twisted into something that seems profligacy in the circumstances. However, I take my stand on the basis that there are in this country adequate resources at the hands of the Government to enable them to deal with problems urgently needing attention. At the same time, there are still sufficient resources there to enable this country to take certain action—as it is advised on this occasion by an independent body of people presided over, as chairman, by the man who brought into all parts of the world the famous Irish jumper that made the Irish Army jumping team the envy of the entire world. I have not got the fool-hardiness to question the judgment of the people who constitute the Board of the National Stud. Their running of the stud, their contribution to the improvement of the bloodstock of this country, speaks for itself.

I think Deputy Dillon is sound in one thing—that the Minister had to decide on the issue. Having got a unanimous recommendation—as we have reason to believe he got from the stud—that we wanted this horse, I think the Minister was coerced either to wind up the idea of a National Stud altogether or to concede to the board's wishes and buy the best horse which is available in the world to-day for that purpose. What is the position? I am absolutely ad idemwith Deputy Dillon, and I would press on the Minister for Agriculture that once Tulyar becomes the possession of the Irish National Stud, which is a semi-State organisation—once he becomes, through their stewardship, the property of the Irish people—he should not be raced any more but should be sent to stud duties forthwith.

I believe that, gamble as it may be described, the balance weighs heavily in favour of Tulyar's being equally successful at stud as he has been on the racecourse. If that belief becomesa reality, there is no doubt at all that the investment of £250,000 of Irish capital in this horse will repay a rich dividend to the National Stud itself and to the general bloodstock industry outside the National Stud. I must confess that I do not like Fianna Fáil, and never have, but in this particular instance I am not ashamed to say that I am glad to see the repatriation of Tulyar. Having got on to that line of country, if they would repatriate some of the funds which they have so badly invested in other directions, they might be able to deal with problems which are not really germane to the issue we are now discussing but which must be brought in inevitably by those who feel that there is profligacy in the expenditure of £250,000 on a racehorse when more and more people are becoming unemployed and are leaving the country.

I appeal to the House to discuss the proposition on its merits and in its relationship to the bloodstock industry. I ask Deputies to remember that infinitely inferior horses in performance, horses that could never hope to have the potential of Tulyar as a sire, have been syndicated for sums up to £160,000 and £170,000—horses with not such a meritorious performance on the racecourse as Tulyar. I have the feeling that we are inclined to be too apprehensive about the future of Tulyar. Some Deputies have spoken about the female dominance in the line of Tulyar's breeding, and have suggested that there might be an inherent danger there. I ask, is there any reasonable basis for the belief that, in some way, Tulyar is going to fold up when he is taken from racecourse duties? The opinion of the experts is that he is a highly intelligent horse, with tremendous gameness and a stout heart. His performance on the racecourse indicates that he has the capacity to stay.

I cannot for the life of me see, beyond, say, the ordinary hazards associated with all classes of bloodstock, any reason for serious apprehension that Tulyar will not be a most successful sire. I am taking the foursquare line of supporting the view of the National Stud Board. I want, ifpossible, to take this purchase out of the argument into which it was projected, and to say deliberately that the matter is not being discussed on its merits. I suppose that is due to the political circumstances that exist— that the Minister for Finance, in the altimate analysis, has to give his sanction to the expenditure of this capital sum. In view of that, I suppose people are inclined to say that this represents a nice lack of balance—to invest £250,000 in Tulyar, while no serious investment is made by an Irish Government in solving the problems of unemployment, emigration, depression in trade, instability in industry and various other things. What I want to say is that the purchase of Tulyar in no way impedes the Government from doing its bounden duty. Our resources are infinitely greater than £250,000.

When people talk about gambles, I think we should look on the purchase of Tulyar with a certain amount of realistic hope. There is much more hope, certainly, in his purchase than in the gamble of £500,000 in a farcical transatlantic air venture. I do not care who gets the £250,000, whether it be an Oriental potentate or anybody else. The purchase was made by a responsible body of people in this country, the members of the Board of our National Stud. I am prepared to accept their judgment, acting on their long experience. For years they have been looking for horses of staying qualities, horses that would stay a mile and a mile and a half. They want that particular type of asset for the stud, and in their considered judgment they have invested £250,000 in Tulyar because they believe that he is going to be of benefit to the National Stud. I believe that we in the Dáil should endorse their courageous policy.

I feel sorry for those particular people that this whole discussion has been projected into an unreal situation where, maybe, their courage in giving disinterested advice to the Minister for Agriculture may come in for criticism that it does not really deserve. I believe we are too inclined to equate what is the earning power of Tulyar as a stallion with those who are going to get nominations.

The purpose of this Bill, of course, is to provide for the immediate payment of a very large sum of money for a horse which will go into the general pool of the assets of the National Stud. By improving its female stock in the National Stud over a period of years, by building up the capital value of the brood mares there, I believe that Tulyar, through his service, will more than compensate for this investment. We are inclined to take the view here that there is something wrong in paying £250,000 for the best horse in the world, and that is an Irish horse. We are inclined to take that view because a situation has been allowed to deteriorate in every facet of the national economy by the ineptness of the present Government. They have had the dead hand on many things. In this particular case they are acting on the advice of people in whom I have supreme confidence, people whose past performance on the Board of the National Stud merits the highest commendation in this House. I think that we would not be doing our duty here if we did not give our whole-hearted support and good wishes to the Board of the National Stud for the courage and foresight it has shown in the purchase of Tulyar. We all believe it will reap a munificent harvest for Irish bloodstock generally.

As regards nominations to Tulyar, I would press on the Minister that as many as possible should be made available to the smaller type of breeder with good approved mares. It is true, of course, that it will be of immense value to the sire, in his early days, to have the choicest mares—brood mares of proven worth. At the same time, I suggest to the Minister that, on making this big sum of money available to the Board of the National Stud, he should make the strongest representations to it to reserve as many nominations as possible of Tulyar for the small type of breeder.

I regret very seriously that this debate, coming at this time, takes the question of the purchase of Tulyar out of its proper perspective. The issues are simple from the point of view of a person who wants to take an honest decision. First of all, what are we buying? We are buying, on the recommendationof an independent body, the Board of the National Stud, a horse for sire duties. What horse are we buying? There is one thing on which there can be no difference in this House: we are buying the greatest horse in the world to-day.

Mr. Kyne

At the greatest price.

Mr. S. Collins

I quite agree, but maybe five years from now we might be in the position that what seems the greatest price ever to-day would be only microscopic.

Mr. Kyne

Can we afford it?

Mr. S. Collins

That is the question which has to be answered. If Deputy Kyne can be patient, I will come to that particular question. The question is, can we afford to pay what has been described as the greatest price ever for the best horse that is available? It is a sorry day for this country if we have reached the stage in our resources that we cannot afford to invest £250,000 capital in the upward grading of two-year-old and three-year-old flat-racing stock.

Deputy Dunne has been talking about this money as something extracted from the taxpayer. This is not money that will be paid out of taxes. This is a capital investment by the State in the National Stud Company, and it may well be, if we had the real facts of the National Stud, that it is under-capitalised at the moment. I believe it is. I believe that the actual addition of £250,000 in ready cash to the National Stud for the purchase of this horse will merely bring its capitalisation a bit nearer to what it is in reality. The National Stud is the owner of very, very valuable land, very, very valuable buildings, very, very valuable stallions and very, very valuable mares.

When we say "Can we afford it?" we are losing sight of the fact that we are putting capital into what has already proved to be a very fine undertaking from the national point of view. It has been a fine commercial undertaking and it has been an excellent undertaking from the point of view ofthe service it has been able to give the Irish bloodstock industry.

This is an investment of £250,000, and I am trying to impress upon my friends in the Labour Party that this particular expenditure, while it is big and looks abnormal in the situation of Government ineptitude with regard to other problems, is in fact being slightly distorted because of the multitude of other national problems.

I believe that we can afford to pay it. I believe it is a sound investment in a sound company. I believe that with any reasonable luck it will prove a really worth-while investment. I sincerely hope so. I sincerely hope that Tulyar may prove to be the sire that will put us into the keenest competition with British and French breeds when it comes even to the Derby and the classics of other countries. The one thing we are looking for in the bloodstock industry in this country at the moment is that small balance between nearly great and great in our two-year-old and three-year-old stock. I hope Tulyar may be the forerunner to Irish-bred colts who in the years to come will play a predominant part in the classic competitions not only of Ireland but of England and France. I believe that we are giving Irish bloodstock that chance by this investment.

It is in the sincerity of that belief that I am urging upon this House that the problem should be approached from the point of view of the benefit and the real potential, even taking into account the element of chance that must exist when you send a horse to stud, as to whether he will be successful or not. Taking the rough with the smooth and trying to view the problem on the basis of whether or not we can afford to pay the price, I feel that the price is as good a price as we could have got this particular horse at in the circumstances.

Maybe it will turn out to be too dear. We do not know. Maybe it will turn out, as a previous purchase for the National Stud did, to be a very reasonable price to pay. Let the House view it in that way, that it is an increase in capital for a semi-State company who have other assets. Therepayment of that capital ultimately will not depend entirely on Tulyar or on Tulyar's capacity as a sire. It will depend also on the efforts of a number of already well-proven sires in the National Stud and some most useful brood mares.

I support this Bill. The debate on this Bill is not the occasion for pressing the Government or arguing other and more important national crises that are around the corner. I do not think the £250,000 that will be put up by way of capital to the National Stud in any way impedes the Government from using the resources of this country immediately to solve far more important problems that arise. I will say to my colleagues on this side of the House, when they approach this problem, not to condemn the purchase of Tulyar because of the general ineptitude of the Government in other directions. Tulyar goes to serve a general national purpose and I hope he will be successful in considerably enhancing the prestige of this country and increasing the value of our two-year-old and three-year-old stock, to compete on the flat in future.

I wish every success to that effort. If Deputy Dunne thinks the Minister is trying to wrap Tulyar in a green flag, I hope Tulyar, having been repatriated, may be the progenitor of many horses that in many lands will raise a green flag, where the first-class ribbon of a classic race is concerned.

Mr. S. Flanagan

Mr. MacBride

I will yield to no one here in relation to my ignorance of racing and betting and I am, therefor, unqualified to express any views as to the merits of Tulyar. I am prepared to accept the views put forward by the Minister, by Deputy Briscoe, by Deputy Dillon and Deputy S. Collins who seem to be the chief protagonistsof the purchase of Tulyar that, at best, this is a gamble of £250,000.

I welcome this Bill for a different reason from the reasons advanced by those who are in favour of it. I welcome it because it confirms me in the view I have held over the past 12 months or more. It confirms the view that the Government is in no way short of money. It is quite obvious that if the Government found itself in financial difficulties of any kind it would not for one moment consider the spending of £250,000 on the purchase of a horse, a transaction described as a complete gamble. I welcome the introduction of this Bill as conclusive proof that the Government and the State finds its coffers pretty full.

There is no shortage of money for development purposes, even for development purposes in the nature of a gamble. This Bill proves that conclusively. I think every Deputy should breathe sighs of relief at that situation because we have become so used to gloomy speeches about our state of bankruptcy, about the inability of the Government to find even the pay of its own civil servants, about the reports from the Central Bank warning us of the danger we were in, that it is refreshing now to find that apparently all these gloomy speeches and reports are completely devoid of foundation.

I welcome this Bill from that point of view. I do not know whether or not the purchase of a racehorse for £250,000 is a good investment but I am not prepared to support a proposal to spend £250,000 on a racehorse while other projects of national development are being shelved or postponed because of lack of money. I am prepared to make a gambling offer to the Minister. I am prepared to support his Bill on condition that he makes available £250,000 for the purchase of premium bulls to improve our cattle population and our dairying industry plus an equal sum for the improvement of agriculture generally. If we are in a position to give £250,000 for a racehorse we should be in a position to give £250,000 for the improvement of agriculture.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 25 Feb 1953