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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Feb 1953

Vol. 136 No. 12

National Stud Bill, 1953—Second Stage (Resumed).

There is no doubt that the purchase by the National Stud of the racehorse Tulyar has caused a lot of concern in the country as is evidenced by the publicity given to the purchase of the horse and the agitation that has ensued during the past few weeks. I do not think that Deputy Dunne, as suggested by Deputy Briscoe, was entirely responsible for that agitation. No matter how eloquent and how forceful Deputy Dunne might be, I do not think that he alone, or any other individual Deputy, could have caused so much publicity to be given to the purchase of this horse by the National Stud.

My attitude towards this debate and towards the purchase of Tulyar by the National Stud for a sum of £250,000 is such that I hardly think it is worth my while to state in detail my objections to the expenditure of such a colossal sum of money on a racehorse. I am not fitted to talk about the merits of the horse. I have no intimate knowledge of horse-racing in this country or in any other country, nor am I interested in it except for the few odd shillings that I spend when I back a horse in the Grand National or the Derby or some other big race.

He was bought as a stud horse—not as a racehorse.

Give Deputy Corish time to develop his argument.

There seems to be a fanatical desire on the part of some members of the Government Party and some members of the Fine Gael Party to retain in this country the best horse in the world and to make the horse-breeding industry in this country the best in the world. I do not object to any Party or any individuals in this House having thatambition so far as the bloodstock industry in this country is concerned out have we shown the same desire in regard to other branches of agriculture or in regard to industry? Have we shown the same desire to keep men in employment and to prevent men from emigrating? I am not against the bloodstock industry. This country is traditionally a breeder of horses and it is famous for it all over the world. I should have thought, however, that in the present situation the most important things in this country should come first. I suppose it is true that the National Stud needs to be improved and advanced but is it the first priority in present circumstances? It may be alleged that the Labour Party have a particular axe to grind or that we want to pander to a certain type of vote. It has been said that £250,000 may represent a large sum of money to people with small minds. So far as the country is concerned, I admit that, relevantly speaking, £250,000 may be a small sum of money but one might well ask, as it has been asked, to what would that £250,000 be devoted? It was said, too, that if all the demands put forward here on behalf of the unemployed were acceded to, the sum of £250,000 would go only a very small way towards meeting the demands and fulfilling their requirements.

I have no doubt that Tulyar will be of benefit not only to the National Stud but ultimately to industry in this country and that he will be of some benefit as far as employment is concerned but the fact of the matter is that there is at the moment a serious unemployment situation that must be met immediately. I was amazed and in no small way shocked to learn, when I attended a branch meeting of my Party in County Wexford last Monday night, that approximately ten members of that small branch had gone to England, Wales or Scotland to seek employment. That is why I said here last night that it seems to me that there is a keener desire to keep Tulyar in this country than to keep men and women at home in this country and to provide work for them.

The purchase of Tulyar has beendescribed as a capital investment. I agree that it is a capital investment so far as the bloodstock industry of this country is concerned but is it the most important investment in which we should engage at the present time? If Tulyar will be of benefit to the country, that benefit will not become apparent, according to some of the racehorse experts, for some years to come. Meantime, men are out of work and are emigrating. If there is to be capital development, I am pretty well certain that the expenditure of even £250,000 on some scheme of capital development would put men in employment as early as next week.

Progeny results would not be seen for some years.

That is what I say. As a result of the purchase of Tulyar, a large number of people will not be put into employment for some years to come. I think it is reasonable to say, as other Deputies have said, that we would not object to the purchase of Tulyar in the circumstances that we knew this time in 1951 or in June, 1951—because there was then a situation in which unemployment had been relieved to a very great extent, no matter where the credit for that situation might be placed.

I am not competent to say whether the price of £250,000 was an exorbitant price to pay for this racehorse. It seems peculiar that we should have been described as bankrupt, that we should be described by the Taoiseach as being at our wits' end to try to balance the Budget and that, according to spokesmen of the Government, we should be at our wits' end in an endeavour to bring about a favourable figure in the balance of trade, and that yet, in these circumstances, we should be able to compete successfully in the negotiations which are supposed to have taken place with regard to the sale of this famous racehorse.

This agitation was not provoked merely by Deputy Dunne. Many Deputies of this House have, on a post office issue or on some other issue, tried to provoke a national agitation and have failed. I do not think thatDeputy Dunne's raising of this matter in this House was fanatical. He was not thrown out of the House because of what he said. He did not march with bands and waving flags in an agitation in regard to the purchase of Tulyar. A question was raised by him on the Adjournment of the House, and the voice of the people, as demonstarted in the public Press, has shown that there is grave concern over the purchase of this horse in the circumstances in which we now find ourselves. It may be all very well to talk about the importance of the horse breeding industry in this country.

There is discontent in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands of our people over this purchase. I do not suggest that the £250,000 should be given to the civil servants as a result of the findings of the arbitration board, or that it should be given to any particular class. If it were to be so divided, the amount per head would be very small indeed. My point is that this expenditure is having a demoralising effect on a big number of our people, especially when they see so many out of work, so many forced to emigrate, and so many State pensioners trying to exist on small pensions. In view of all these circumstances, people regard this purchase as a luxury capital investment.

We have natural resources and no attempt is being made to develop them. We have expressed the view that our ambition is to step up agricultural production——

The Deputy seems to be discussing the whole economic policy of the State on this Bill.

All that I am claiming is the same indulgence as that given to practically every speaker on this Bill yesterday. The reasons for expressing disapproval of this purchase are so obvious that my speech will be very brief. I think that it would be nearly as logical to purchase the Queen Elizabeth, the linerAmerica, or the fastest jet plane in the world. I believe that the feelingsI have expressed on this purchase reflect the feelings of the majority of the people who have been supporting the Labour Party in my constituency for many years.

I think that the Government ought to reconsider this. It seems to me that the National Stud took the decision to saddle this House and the country with this extra expenditure of £250,000 before the House was consulted. I think it would be very much better if the Minister had to come to the House before the decision was taken and asked: "Do you agree to this?" As far as I can see, the purchase is now an accomplished fact. We are committed to this expenditure. It seems to me to be a fantastic sum to pay. The woman to whom I referred last night was of the same opinion. She, knowing the wealth of the former owner of Tulyar—the Aga Khan—asked me quite simply: "Is the Government going to purchase the Aga Khan?"

It seems to me that most Deputies, in discussing this Bill, appear to have lost sight of what the Minister said yesterday. He said that, long before the purchase of Tulyar, authority was sought from the Government by the Board of the National Stud to bring in this Bill with a view to increasing the share capital of the company. The Minister also emphasised that the Bill was necessary to enable the company to proceed with its programme of increasing its bloodstock and developing the National Stud. Therefore, if Tulyar had never been bought this Bill would have been necessary. I agree that the Labour Deputies would not find a great deal of publicity value in it if its purpose was simply to increase our bloodstock and develop the National Stud. However, once the purchase of Tulyar was mentioned, a fine opportunity was presented to them of getting into the news. The Labour Deputies are taking every advantage of that. They had great fun yesterday with descriptions of Deputy Blowick and Deputy Dunne on Tulyar. That provided them with great amusement.

To my mind racing is more than amusement. It constitutes an important element in a great industry.It provides a great deal of employment, directly and indirectly. That cannot be denied. It is also a great asset to the tourist trade. As the Minister pointed out yesterday, it can be very helpful, too, as regards the export of bloodstock to the dollar areas. These are important considerations that we should not lose sight of.

Deputy Murphy, from the Labour Benches, spent a great deal of time yesterday telling us about certain classes who attend race meetings. He tried to give the impression that it is only wealthy people who do so. I attended one in my life. I think that Deputy Murphy and his Labour colleagues know more about the Soviet Union than I do. Even there racing is permitted. They do that while they prate about the equality of income. Deputy Murphy would like us to believe that it is only the wealthy classes who attend race meetings. From what I know from meeting people I believe that the ordinary Dubliner or the ordinary man likes to attend a race meeting and to have a bob on his selection. He gets great enjoyment from that. I agree that if there is excessive gambling it can spoil the day's enjoyment at a race meeting.

As I have said, the main purpose of this Bill is to enable the company to improve the bloodstock industry.

What about cutting down the Estimates? The Forestry Estimate has been cut by £250,000.

The record of the last Government in cutting Estimates is well known.

They gave employment. They had not 80,000 unemployed.

I think that anyone genuinely interested in this very important industry will approve of this expenditure.

All the big noises will.

At the Olympic Games in 1948 it was really wonderful to see the enthusiasm which the jumping ofour Irish horses called forth. It testified to their value as jumpers. I saw the same at Helsinki in 1952. It was really marvellous to see the honours which our Irish jumpers and horsemen won there. Great enthusiasm was aroused as they paraded there carrying the Irish colours. It is efforts of that kind that help to promote this great industry. I should like to see the efforts of the Olympic Council of Ireland of which I happen to be a delegate, directed towards getting the games held in Ireland.

That does not arise.

I think it is worth mentioning. If the games were held here we would not hear much complaint from Deputy Dunne. I know, of course, that the purchase of Tulyar provided him and others with an opportunity for getting a great deal of publicity. They all seem, however, to have lost sight of the important thing and that is that the purchase of this horse can be of enormous value not only to our bloodstock breeding industry but to the country as a whole.

I think it is only natural that a great many people should question our sense of proportion in proposing to pay such a large sum of money for one animal. There has been a good deal of publicity in connection with the sale of this horse. It was reasonable to expect, therefore, that a number of people would suggest other possible uses for a sum of money of this size. I think, however, that there is another way of examining this matter. Various suggestions have been made to the effect that it would be possible to utilise this money in other ways. We also had indications given that we have available in the country adequate resources to provide for the development of schemes of such a character as may be considered necessary. I do not think that the Government can seriously contend in future that there is a shortage of money for essential development schemes. The proposal which the Minister has introduced in this Bill is an indication that,whatever else may be wrong with our economy, there is no shortage of money for worth-while development.

The fact that it is proposed to expend this sum of money on the purchase of a single racehorse has probably been magnified out of actual proportion to the capital money involved in the National Stud and out of proportion to the value of the bloodstock industry as a whole. It is not a fair representation to suggest that the expenditure of £250,000 on the purchase of one animal can be isolated from the capital already invested in the National Stud and from the value to the country of the bloodstock industry. This particular purchase was decided upon by the Board of the National Stud as part of a long-term policy to secure what they consider are the best breeding lines available so that the already high prestige of the bloodstock industry of this country may, if possible, be enhanced and its future assured.

There have been a great many suggestions made here that money should be provided for other schemes, such as agriculture, industry, the relief of unemployment, and so forth. I endorse almost all the suggestions made in that regard. If money is required for the improvement of agriculture, for improving cattle, sheep, pigs, for any other schemes under the Department of Agriculture, for investment in secondary industries or for development schemes of any sound nature which will in the long run repay in improved economic conditions, there is no reason why the Government or the House should not make the money available.

It is undoubtedly a fact that there is at the present time very considerable unemployment. It is undoubtedly a fact that many schemes could be initiated which would not merely relieve that situation, but, in the long run, improve economic conditions.

The proposal before the House at the moment should be considered on its merits and in the light of the importance of the bloodstock industry to the country as a source of a valuable export trade, as an important sourceof employment, providing work almost entirely for male workers at good rates of wages. The industry must be considered as a whole. The fact that the National Stud is financed from State sources and that the directors considered it desirable to purchase this animal in the interests of the further development of the policy which they have operated, is merely an accident when considered in relation to the expenditure of this particular sum of money which appears, and which undoubtedly is, a very large sum even for an animal with the outstanding racecourse career of Tulyar.

Almost every Deputy who spoke indicated that he had very little knowledge of the bloodstock industry. In most cases it was obvious from the speeches made that the Deputies concerned had very little connection with bloodstock or with racing. They all recognised the importance of the industry and the fact that the prestige of Irish horses, on the basis of performance on the racecourse, on the basis of performance in the Army Jumping Team and on the basis of the many magnificent performances by civilian riders who have represented this country abroad in jumping competitions, has probably attained an all-time high level.

Many criticisms were expressed that we were buying an expensive horse from a rich man. Admitting that that is true, I think it has been overlooked that the breeder of this horse has helped in enhancing the prestige of Irish breeding by running for very many years a number of large studs in this country which give a good deal of employment. I do not suggest for a moment that the Aga Khan is doing that for the love of this country. He is doing it because it is possible in Ireland to raise the best horses. Over the last quarter of a century horses bred at the Irish studs run by the Aga Khan have achieved records never before attained and which it is unlikely will be reached in future. He has bred four Derby winners and owned a fifth, possibly a sixth. The other was bred in France. He has owned Blenheim, Bahram, Mahmoud, Tulyar. All of these were Irish-bred horses. He bred three of them in this country; theother he bought but it was also bred here. That has advanced the fame of the Irish racehorse. The Aga Khan, in common with other breeders of bloodstock, has provided substantial employment in this country. Bloodstock breeding has provided a very big export trade in the past, mainly to sterling areas and, in recent years, to the dollar area.

The proposal by the National Stud to buy this horse has undoubtedly attracted world-wide attention. It has attracted attention because of the large sum for which the horse has been purchased, because of the fame which Tulyar achieved on the racecourse, and the interest created has extended not only to Europe but even to the United States.

I believe that the policy of the National Stud so far has been wise. In a few years they have achieved successful results. It is common knowledge that up to the present the principal sire there has got what are regarded as short distance runners. In recent years the tendency has been for animals bred for speed, five or six furlong horses, to attract a very high price. That is mainly because of the desire of those who invest in bloodstock to get a quick return. As far as that goes, the National Stud provided the leading sire last year of short distance runners and the leading sire of two-year-olds. They also have another sire, Preciptic, who sired the winner of one good race last year which has since been sold for a substantial sum to the United States. That shows the interest which United States buyers have in securing Irish bloodstock.

The Minister, in introducing this Bill, referred to the fact that in recent years many sires had been purchased for large sums and that some of them had been syndicated at high prices. Some people have suggested that because it was possible to syndicate, through the means of private enterprise, a number of sires both here and in Great Britain that should be possible in this case. With few exceptions. I think that almost all the sires that were syndicated were syndicated after they had shown results at stud. Most largesyndicates were formed after the horse had proved a success at stud. That would mean that he had been anything from three to four years, or maybe five years, at stud. In these cases, the persons concerned were naturally anxious to get an indication beforehand of the likely return before expending sufficient sums of money to purchase the animals in question.

There have been undoubtedly cases in the past of very brilliant racehorses failing at stud to live up to their reputation and not transmitting their racing abilities to their progeny, or not to the same extent. On the other hand, there have been cases of comparatively undistinguished horses, and in some cases horses of no racecourse merit, becoming great sires. There is one thing on which breeders will agree, that there is what might be described as no royal road to success in breeding. It is generally accepted, however, that by breeding from animals with a good or proven pedigree, proper conformation and good racecourse performances the prospect of securing progeny which will in turn achieve success on the racecourse is more likely than by breeding from animals which have shown little racing ability.

If, therefore, it is accepted that it has been the experience of breeders generally that there is a better prospect of breeding the best horses from animals of proven racecourse ability and from well-established lines, then I think it will be accepted that the proposal to buy this racehorse on performance and on pedigree is a sound one. There have been undoubtedly many examples of horses who had very successful racecourse careers not proving successful at stud. On the other hand, horses that were unsuccessful on the racecourse have proven successful at stud. But, on the assumption that, by and large, those that have proved themselves on the racecourse will transmit that ability to their progeny, the proposal to buy this horse meets with my approval.

I agree that the sum of money involved is a large one and criticism may be expressed that it would be possible to utilise it in other ways. But the fact that there is in thiscountry a National Stud which has over a great number of years, either under the former owners' management or since it has come under our own control, achieved a high reputation places on the directors of that stud a responsibility to see that the place of the National Stud in the bloodstock industry of this country is maintained.

Unfortunately, a great number of Deputies have approached this matter on the basis that, because their own particular constituency has no special interest in bloodstock, and because horse-breeding is not an important economic interest in certain areas of the country, the proposal should not be approved. I do not think that we can approach big economic questions on a parochial basis. Merely because one scheme is appropriate to one locality, it does not follow that such a scheme should be developed in another locality. There are undoubtedly certain parts of the country where the horse-breeding industry is more important than in others. But, taking the country as a whole and the economy as a whole, the people of this country recognise the value of the bloodstock industry. They recognise its value to the national economy. They recognise the prestige which this country obtains through its horses and through its riders. That prestige is based on solid foundations.

On many occasions in recent years we have heard the word prestige abused. We have seen all sorts of unsound efforts made to achieve prestige in spheres in which we cannot compete. We are competing in this sphere as masters and as those who have over the years succeeded in attaining a reputation unsurpassed by any other country, and one which has not only attracted to his country many people anxious to invest money here but has also resulted in great numbers of our own people developing and extending their interest in this industry because of its advantage to themselves, because of the employment it gives, and because of its economic strength from the point of view of the country as a whole.

I regret that in the course of this debate some references were made to individuals. Some names were introduced here yesterday, perhaps inadvertently, by Deputy M.P. Murphy, who referred to an individual he saw mentioned in a paper from which he was quoting and suggested that because that individual had an army title— and I think another title too—he had no interest in this country. I think it is only right to say that the particular individual to whom the Deputy referred has not only lived here but so have generations of his family for many years back and they have always provided good employment and are held in high repute by their neighbours and by all sections of the community and are looked upon as a family which has not only given good employment but has demonstrated its interest in the nation and in the welfare of the country as a whole.

If we have a National Stud that stud should be run on the basis of producing only the best and the best can only be achieved by endeavouring to breed along the lines that are considered by the experts to be the correct lines. If this is not the appropriate occasion I would like on some future occasion to suggest that it is time something was done to bring the control of racing within the sphere of influence of some statutory body. The racing industry is now so important it can no longer be left in the control of individuals who have no particular claim to the exercise of that control and many of whom have no status from the point of view of the national interest.

The Racing Board was established to deal with certain aspects of the racing industry. The time has arrived when full control over that industry should be exercised by a statutory body appointed for that purpose. The introduction of this Bill gives us an opportunity of expressing the view that it is time in the national interest that some of those who control racing here should be replaced by those who have the interests of the nation at heart and the interests of the country as a whole.

The importance of the racing industry is now so great that the timehas come when the old-time control and the old-time responsibility must be replaced by a body having certain defined responsibilities under statute. So important is the industry now that it is essential that it should be directed along the right lines and that those who so direct it must have not only the confidence of those earning their livelihood in it but the confidence of the people as well.

I hope that the purchase of this horse will be followed by the same success at stud as the horse has had on the racecourse. Deputy Dillon expressed the hope yesterday that this horse would not be run again this year. I agree with Deputy Dillon in that. It is, I admit, a matter for the National Stud, and it is they who will have the task of deciding that matter in view of the fact that many arrangements have already been made for the coming season between the owners of mares and stallions. It is worthy of note that a great many successful sires were never raced. It is also worthy of note that some horses that had during their racing careers very hard races indeed were subsequently a failure at stud. The converse is also true. This horse has achieved on the racecourse everything that was expected of him. He has done everything that enabled him to achieve the reputation that he has to-day. Any further racing may involve the risk of tarnishing his already high reputation. I take it the directors will decide in the light of their mature judgment and consideration.

The proposal to expend this sum on the purchase of one animal will not, of course, prevent more money being provided in the future for other purposes. The importance of the industry and its value to the country places on the directors of the National Stud the responsibility of ensuring that the best will always be provided whenever it is available for the use of breeders here so that our reputation may be maintained throughout the world.

Listening to some of the speakers here one would imaginethat a Deputy had no right to intervene in this debate unless he has an interest in bloodstock or in racing. I am sure there are very few Deputies here who have not at some time or another attended race meetings and had a flutter on a horse. I admit I am one of them but I do not for a moment subscribe to the statement that unless a Deputy has a direct interest in racing and in bloodstock he is not entitled to speak in this debate. Every Deputy is here as a representative of his constituency.

Deputy Gallagher has told us that in this Bill we are advancing a sum of money towards the development of the National Stud, and Tulyar has really nothing at all to do with it. No matter how the Minister or Deputy Gallagher may paint the picture it is simply because of the purchase of this famous racehorse the State is now providing a sum of £250,000 for the National Stud. Many Deputies have referred to this sum as a colossal sum. Even those who are in favour of this purchase have admitted that the sum is a big sum. The only case that can be made is that it is a long-term investment and that from that point of view it is a good investment, but one hears of businessmen and firms who invest money hoping that that investment will show a profit ten years hence. Ten years hence they sometimes find that it does not show a profit.

I prefer to take the view of an Irish Catholic paper—I have here a copy of the Irish Catholicdated 4th February, 1953—rather than accept the statement made by many Deputies here in relation to that long term policy. This gives us an account over ten years roughly to show that there are other ways rather than the purchase of Tulyar to bring a net gain to the country more profitable than investing in the bloodstock business. We have to-day—and I believe he is right—the Minister for Education going around the country telling us the condition of national schools, that they are hovels and that many of them would want to be repaired. I am sure it is on account of that that theIrish Catholicpresentsa balance sheet as far as Tulyar is concerned. I quote from it and the date is the 12th February, 1953. It starts off: “That £250,000—Tulyar's welfare or your child”. It then produces a profit and loss account. It takes the year 1953.

1953.

To one horse

£250,000

To rehabilitating 1,000 primary schools at £250 each

£250,000

1963.

By one dead horse

£?

By (say) 50,000 healthy children

Can you measure it in money?

I think that is an answer to the long-term policy that we heard about from the great financier, Deputy Briscoe, and to a certain extent from Deputy Cosgrave, who has just spoken. As far as I am concerned spending £250,000 on this horse is done for one purpose alone and that is to accommodate the bloodstock breeders and the racehorse owners in this country. There are, roughly, 25 people concerned, and this £250,000 is spent to accommodate those people in getting a sire into the National Stud. They are the richest section of the community and it is my view that it should be left to themselves to pay for that horse. They are very well able to do so. In a few years' time, with the sale of the yearlings, the two-year-olds or the three-year-olds, as the case may be, they themselves are the very people who will gain by it and not the taxpayers of the country who are now filling the bill in paying for this animal for them.

What advantage will it be to the general taxpayers of this country—to follow Deputy Briscoe's argument— that in two years' time we will hear of so many thousands of pounds being secured for the yearlings and, later on, so many thousands of pounds for the two-year-olds? It is of advantage to the 25 or 30 breeders, as I have said. They are the people who will be gaining, and they are the people who should pay for this animal. They are very well able to do so.

Of course, Deputy Briscoe said this is a gamble. I am sure Deputy Briscoewas in many good gambles in his time; so were other Deputies—sometimes successfully and sometimes otherwise. A person is entitled to gamble with his own money, but it is my view that the Government is not entitled to gamble £10, let alone £250,000, of the people's money. A person is entitled to gamble his own money if he wishes to do so, but definitely a Government or a company is not entitled to gamble people's money; the Government is not entitled to gamble the money of the taxpayers of the State any more than the company is entitled to gamble the money or the property of their shareholders.

I will vote against this measure not for the reason which has been put forward by Deputy Dunne and the Labour Party but for the simple reason that I believe it is not money that will be spent to the advantage of our people. I have no doubt it will be of advantage to the sections I have mentioned but certainly they are the people who should pay for this animal, because if this animal is a success they are the people who will gain from its purchase.

Up to lately, I thought this country was completely robbed by the outgoing Government. From what I heard down the country there was not a penny in the kitty. It was completely swamped by Deputy Norton, by the inter-Party Government and by Deputy Costello. It was only when the magic Fianna Fáil Party got into power, with the assistance of the type of individual to whom I will not refer, that we were able to do away with that debt and build up this country again. Is it not remarkable that all of a sudden £250,000 has come to the fore to buy a racehorse to suit the class in favour of whom Fianna Fáil must forget the people, when something like this crops up, and support motions and Bills of this description? Of course, that Government was more than generous of late. This action of theirs is only in keeping with the abolition of the dance tax. They are very sporting people. They love dancing so they abolish the dance tax. They love horse-racing and they have bought a sire at £250,000. They also helped a certain class when they gave back £1,000,000 to thetobacco manufacturers in this country. They love all those classes of people while they have turned around and forgotten the taxpayers, the people for whom they bleed at election time.

Some people say that if this country were better off, if we were in a better position financially, they would not object to this purchase. I would object to it at any time. Just imagine, we competed against the British Government and against the American Government. We were able to buy them out and purchase this racehorse notwithstanding the fact that we have in this small country of ours the greatest number of registered unemployed that ever existed. Deputies on the Fianna Fáil side shake their heads. I know they will be marched into the Lobby whether they like it or not. Any of them who are allowed to speak are told what to say and when it comes to the vote they must march blindly into the Lobby to vote for it because it is a Fianna Fáil scheme. That is the only consideration they give it.

Listening last night to Deputy Seán Flanagan and Deputy Moran, both from South Mayo, one would imagine that the people around Swinford, Kiltimagh, Claremorris and from the mountains around Partry, were all delighted at the purchase of Tulyar. I wonder whether Deputy Flanagan or Deputy Moran will go amongst the people in the rural areas in South Mayo or whether Deputy Killilea, who is afraid to come into this House to defend the action of the Government but who will blindly vote in support of it later on, will go into North Galway or stand up in this House and say that the people of South Mayo or the people of rural areas in North Galway are definitely behind the purchase of Tulyar? Of course, Deputy Séan Flanagan down in Claremorris or in any other district in South Mayo will not make the case that he made here last night for such a purchase.

I hope I will meet the Deputy down there then.

There is a big hole in Glenamaddy.

There is a hole inWicklow that you will soon be buried in. I met a man last night who was speaking of the purchase of Tulyar, and he said: "I do not blame Fianna Fáil at all for that purchase. They had to do it. That timber structure they are erecting in O'Connell Street is for the purpose of showing him during the Tóstal." People will tell you also of certain sections who go racing who would support this purchase. I am talking of the "Haw-Haw" crowd who appear to be supported a little bit on my right here. I suppose there is a mixture of that element on both sides of the House and the quicker we see both of them together the better it will be for the country. A member of that "Haw-Haw" crowd, I have been informed, recently remarked: "You have no comfort at all going to races nowadays. The damn place is blocked up with farmers.""Yes," another of them said, "some of them have the cheek even to go on the grand stand." That is the mentality, in my view, of the racing element in this country. It is because of that mentality and because the people in the rural areas are opposed to this waste of money that I, as one Deputy, oppose this Bill and will vote against it.

I was thinking that before Deputy Donnellan would finish he would try to draw moral support from some source in defence of his argument, because it appears now as if Deputy Donnellan, no matter what the debate hinged round, is going to adopt the rôle of moralist and defender of the faith. I do not see what moral issue is involved in this simple debate regarding the question of the purchase of a racehorse. As Deputy Cosgrave said, one must not be parochial in one's outlook on this question. Goodness knows, the people of Donegal have little interest in the National Stud but they have sufficient intelligence to realise that an industry which is world famous is entitled to the support of the nation as a whole. This country has acquired a world reputation for the products of a few of its industries. Bloodstock is one of them. If we take further steps to enhance that reputation and toincrease our prestige in that direction, I think these steps must have the full support of every person in the country who is alive to the importance of national industry. These are the lines along which anybody is bound to view the steps that have been taken to enhance the reputation of Irish bloodstock, steps such as the purchase of Tulyar.

I think the publicity which the purchase of Tulyar has received and the adverse criticism from those who would like to cash in on it and use it as a vote-catching issue by playing on the susceptibilities of the unemployed and the weaker sections of the people, will in itself enhance the high reputation we hold as the best bloodstock producing country in the world. Since it can be proven beyond doubt that the purchase is a wise one and a sound one and that it is bound to show a profit as the years go by, I fail to see why anybody should try to make capital out of it at this stage or try to prove that by the purchase of a horse, even for this gigantic figure, we are neglecting some section of the community. Exactly the same argument could be used with regard to expenditure on any other industry in the country. Why do we spend so much on tourism? Because it is a good industry which shows a good return and is of some national benefit. If we follow up the arguments we hear from the Clann na Talmhan and Labour Benches we would not spend money on any industry.

There is no comparison between the money spent on the purchase of this horse and money spent on an industry.

That is the position. If we were to follow that argument to its logical conclusion, we would be reluctant to spend money on any industry that shows a good return. We would be reluctant to spend money on tourism, on agricultural shows and various other things which cost a lot but which are calculated to enhance the prospects of the industries with which they are concerned. I think we should be quite satisfied to support national industries that are worldfamous and that will eventually bring better returns to the national purse as a whole. There is no use in following the line of argument that this money could be used in this, that or the other way.

Deputy Donnellan suggested that the money might be better invested in improving our schools. If we can maintain our national economy and assist national industry to expand, we enrich the nation as a whole and then, in ten years' time or so, we shall be in a better position to improve any institutions of the State on which we wish to spend money. All our efforts should be directed towards that end. The bloodstock industry is one of the best we have. Unless we are prepared to look after these industries and to provide the necessary capital for their development, we cannot expect to hold the place which they are entitled to hold, particularly the industry we are discussing at the moment. I am, therefore, inclined to agree with Deputy Cosgrave who said this matter should not be looked upon from a parochial viewpoint.

It is not merely a matter for the few Deputies who may have a particular interest in racing. The Deputy from Galway should not deprecate the value of racing in this country because Galway is one of the counties which stand fairly high on the list in so far as gains from that particular industry are concerned. I do not think that those Deputies who have a particular interest in racing should have a monopoly of the debate here or that they alone should be concerned with this particular matter. It is a national industry in regard to which we do not intend showing any parochialism. It is a national industry of importance to every part of the country and it is an industry in respect of which even those of us who have no connection whatever with it have always been proud especially when this country produced horses that were world famous. We have now taken steps to produce even better horses than ever we did before so that we may be in the forefront in that particular industry and put it on the map. We have taken steps to see that the industry will be a source in future yearsof a greater return in so far as it will attract the world's best buyers and the greatest world interest in racing will be focussed on this country.

I have great pleasure in supporting the motion and I have no qualms of conscience in that connection. Unlike the previous speaker, we will go into the Lobby to support it with a free conscience and in the belief that we are supporting a national industry which has been a tradition of pride in this country, a tradition to which we look with confidence in the future.

The complaint I have to make in regard to the discussion on this matter concerns the unreality of some of the Deputies who advocated this great investment we have made by paying £250,000 for this horse as if there was nothing else in the country upon which it would be worth while spending ten times that amount. I have heard Deputies on both sides of the House say it was a sound investment. I hope the last Deputy and other Deputies will not accuse me of parochialism. I claim to have as much interest in the National Stud as any Deputy but I would like the people who are in charge of the National Stud to be men of national outlook. That is very little thought of at the moment.

I must refer to the fantastic price paid for the horse while nothing was done by any Deputy in regard to the unemployed when there was a motion put down from these benches. There are 89,000 people registered at the Labour Exchange at the moment and if these were put to work at £5 per week —a small amount in these days—they would produce per year over £23,229,000 worth of goods and services. Were we to pay those 89,000 people only £4 per week we would produce goods and services to the value of over £19,000,000. Does anybody suggest that we should sit quietly and silently listening to a proposal to spend £250,000 on a horse which might prove as barren as anything we could think of? Surely we must have some sense of reality in discussions of this kind.

I cannot understand the great excitement among Deputies on the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Benches in regardto the great investment we have made in buying this horse. I could say a lot more about this matter, but I will not do so. I understand there is a very heavy insurance on this horse. I would like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary would have any information in regard to the amount of insurance to be paid on this horse this year. I am informed that there is anything up to £9,000 insurance on that horse per year. I suggest to Deputies on both sides of the House who spoke about this great investment that the State should carry that insurance and not hand it over to any combine or combines which are paralysing progress in this country. Would the Parliamentary Secretary answer that question now?

I hope that the insurance will be carried by the State. I do not want to waste another five minutes on this discussion because the matter was debated at length. I am registering my protest at the manner in which this business was done while there are so many other worth-while projects in which we could invest our money better.

Some American advisers told us that we were paying £8,000,000 freightage on goods coming into and leaving the country, but when we suggested that we should spend £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 on better ships we were told it could not be done. When I suggested that we should increase the old age pension —the old age pensioner is expected to live on 21s. 6d. per week—we were told that there was no money available. While we are discussing this horse there are many other things from the human aspect in which we could invest our money. I am protesting against this purchase.

We come to this House for £250,000 for the National Stud because of the purchase of Tulyar and anything the Minister may say that it was to be employed otherwise will not carry much weight. It is occasioned by the purchase of the horse called Tulyar. There is no doubtabout that. It is something we cannot defer. We have got to face up to it. It comes at a time which is unfortunate for the people of the country in so far as there is so much unemployment and so much emigration. There are also other and greater problems facing the country. We are now presented with a problem to solve.

It is a pity that in the course of the last 12 months we remitted enough money which would go a considerable way towards purchasing this horse. The purchase price of the horse has been described as astronomical. Other expressions were used to describe the purchase price in order to try and convey the immensity of the figure. I understand there is a feeling among people who are in a position to give expression to what they considered should be the price of the animal that the price was rather too high.

However, that is over and done with now and we are merely discussing whether it should have been done or not. Over the past year we, by vote of the House, gave £140,000 to the dance-hall proprietors. If we had that sum in the coming year it would pay for Tulyar and would be a good capital investment. However, we gave that back and the taxpayers, through the Office of the Minister for Finance, must find this £250,000. We Deputies are sent to this House to represent the views of our constituents and were we to take any line other than the views which they express in this matter, then we would not be keeping faith with them. It is for that reason that I oppose the payment of this price for Tulyar. Many views have been put forward in support of it. It is conceded that the best views in support of the purchase have come from my own Party. Nevertheless, some of us feel that there are other uses to which this money could be put and which would bring a better return to the country.

The staying power of the horse was referred to. It would appear also, whatever about the estimate of the staying power of Tulyar, that the staying power of the ratepayers is overrated.

The Minister gave some figures about the employment being given in this industry. I think the comparison he drew was not a fair one. He said that in horse breeding there was one man employed to 20 acres, whereas there was only one man to 42 acres in the rest of the country. We have an idea of the type of land on which horse breeding is carried on, and we in the dairying area know that if we had such land we could give employment to many more than one man to 20 acres. The rate one to 42 acres applies to every type of land throughout the country—mountain and bog land and everything else. That was not a fair comparison.

We think that this purchase does not dovetail into the present situation. Speaking for my own constituency, when this came up on a former occasion the Minister for Agriculture interrupted me and said it would bring considerable benefit to my constituency. We have as great a love for the horse as there is in any other constituency in Ireland. I made some inquiries; I asked my constituency executive how many breeders in my constituency would benefit from the purchase of this animal, how many there were who could afford the service charged for Tulyar. I was told there was one, a non-national. That occurs in the very month when the Cork Committee of Agriculture have to cut their suit according to their measure and cut down the number of premiums for bulls, while another section of the industry had to be deprived of monetary assistance, as it is felt that the people could not afford to pay anything more in support of it. This comes at a time when people are hard put to meet many other commitments, and it is in that light we must look at it.

It would have been better if, in his introduction, the Minister had not sought to convey that a distinct favour was being conferred on this country by the vendor of the animal in not parting with him for a higher price to the Americans. Surely it was a consideration that the vendor will continue to enjoy the service of this sire for his own string? It would havebeen better if the Minister had outlined once and for all at the commencement of the discussion the number of priorities which the former owner of the animal will continue to have in his service.

The debate has gone on now for long enough and much has been said, but I feel, in justice to my constituency and without taking up in any way a parochial attitude. I must say that if we were all to come before this House with the same high level of advocacy, there are other sections in live-stock production which could come forward with a better case to get a larger sum from the Exchequer for a purpose which would bring to this country higher employment and better conditions for those engaged in it than can be given in this measure.

We must, however, have regard to what was stated here. There was one point brought forward by Deputy Dillon which registered definitely on my mind, the fact that nothing but the best was good enough for our National Stud. It is to be noted that the country could well stand up to this piece of capital investment if such havoc had not been created with our resources in the last 18 months. It is facing up to reality when I say that in one town in my constituency there are 400 men at the labour exchange and one mile away there is one non-national benefiting from this measure, who I do not think will employ one additional person as a result. It is facing up to that situation that I am constrained to vote against this Bill.

B'ionadh liom bheith ag eisteacht leis an Teachta Micheál Ó Domhnalláin ag cur in aghaidh na rásaí. Is minic a chuadhas leis ar na rásaí agus bhí áthas chroí orm nuair bhí sé ann. I was surprised to hear Deputy O'Donnell condemn race meetings of all kinds. I do not know what has come over him. He used to enjoy the sport very much, and it is a sport which most people enjoy.

To come down to the sense of reality to which Deputy Hickey referred, I would like to point out that we are as much concerned about the people involvedin racing as is any member of the Labour Party. Whether a man is a jockey, a stable lad or a general farm hand round a stud farm, he is just as important as an attendant in a theatre and has the same right to get a decent wage. I wonder if the critics of this purchase ever consider the number of men employed in the stables, on the racecourses and in the book-making industry all over the country. If we let our bloodstock go down and it becomes not worth while improving the strain, as has been done since the National Stud was set up, these people will eventually lose their employment and the high reputation of our horses all over the world will cease and nobody will be attracted here to purchase them.

We have this talk of £250,000. Every spring and every autumn into this city is brought more than £250,000 from visitors, who spend it in the hotels and shops, because of the attraction of Ballsbridge—and the foundation of that attraction is the live-stock industry. Here you have a further attempt to improve it and, incidentally, to improve our tourist industry.

I was surprised to hear the Deputy from Galway talking as he did about horse racing. A considerable asset to the City of Galway is the Galway races, which are known all over the world. The Galway Blazers have a fine reputation, and hunters are bought from County Galway by Australia, South Africa and other places.

We have heard this small talk about only one man being able to afford the service of Tulyar, but what is going on on the other side? Every brood mare or good sire you bring into the country builds up the value of our live stock. This purchase is a step in that direction. Therefore, as regards the sense of reality, we are keeping thousands of people in employment by this purchase, with a wage bill of some millions.

In my constituency—which I am primarily concerned with—if you take away the race meetings from Mullingar you hit the hotels and the racecourse.

This horse is not going to race any more.

Do not make so much small talk. You have as much common sense as horse sense.

It is not telling lies in North Mayo you are.

Deputy Blowick has already spoken.

Then you have places in the West like Ballinrobe and Tuam, which have racecourses; you have the racing stables in the Midlands in County Meath; and you have the ordinary point-to-point held outside a country town. Does this not bring in hundreds of pounds to a town? Is it not an asset? All these things are mixed up with our racehorses and bloodstock and everything this House can do to improve the strain is to the good.

I resent very much Deputy Hickey's reference to the people in charge of the National Stud and his suggestion that they have not got a national outlook. We, who know some of them, know that they have a big national reputation and that some of them fought for the independence of this country. It is a most unfair criticism on his part. I have great pleasure in supporting this Bill. I do not think it is a Bill which should be made a political issue, and, if it is made a political issue, even in a by-election, it will not get one vote.

We will not want them.

This Bill has for its purpose the provision of £250,000 for the National Stud, but, no matter what the Minister may say, it is patently obvious to everybody that the purpose of providing the money is the purchase of a horse called Tulyar. I will admit, as I think everybody who has any connection with or knowledge of racing will admit, that Tulyar is possibly one of the best horses of the century. He has done practically everything which is conceivably possible for a horse of classic calibre to do, but that does not seem to me to be the only issue in this case.

I have sat through the greater partof this debate and listened to the arguments for and against. The arguments against are innumerable. I should like to deal for a moment with the arguments adduced in favour of this purchase. The Parliamentary Secretary has voiced the opinion of most of the speakers on the Fianna Fáil Benches that anyone who opposes the spending of £250,000 on the purchase of a single racehorse—let Deputies mark this, that this is the greatest sum of money ever paid for a horse in the history of racing in the world—is small-minded. Furthermore, the argument has been put forward from the benches opposite —perhaps I am wrong, but this is what I have gathered from listening to them —that if we do not buy this horse, we are going to smash the tourist industry and the racing industry. Is that, in effect, not what the Parliamentary Secretary and the Deputy from Donegal who spoke before him said? If we do not buy Tulyar, all these dreadful things are going to happen. I think they are paying a very poor compliment to Irish racing bloodstock. Let me say here and now that, as an Irishman and as representing a constituency that has bred fine horses— hunters, steeplechasers and classic horses—down the years, I am proud of our horse tradition and I hold the view that the National Stud has not reached such a stage that it is going to be totally destroyed unless we spend £250,000 on Tulyar.

It has been admitted by Deputies opposite, and particularly by the Parliamentary Secretary, that this is a gamble. Admittedly, practically anything to do with racing is a gamble, but are we justified, no matter what our own personal sentiments with regard to racing may be, as elected representatives of the people, in gambling with their money to the tune of £250,000, in view of the state of the country and the world to-day? Not only that, but are we justified in doing that at any time? I ask Deputies to ponder on that before they march into the Division Lobby to vote for the spending of this big sum. There are a considerable number of other angles to be looked at. If somebody has a sum of £10,000 to invest—the capital sumassociated with the National Stud is £500,000 and the sum to be expended on a single unit, £250,000—will that person to-day, financier or businessman, invest 50 per cent., or £5,000, of that sum in a single investment? I do not believe he will. I do not believe in having all our eggs in one basket.

To go further, the purpose for which Tulyar is being bought is the rearing of bloodstock. This horse is untried as a sire, and it is conceivably possible that he may be sterile. Where do we come in then? I will probably be answered by the statement that we would carry insurance to cover that, which brings us to the other angle of the proposition. The Minister has said that it is estimated that this great horse has a probable period of 12 years at stud, and everybody will agree that that is a pretty fair statement. That means that, in the first year, there will be about 20 mares—subsequently he may have more—and he may be able to produce about £20,000 per year, but to get that money involves the carrying of a very heavy insurance. We have not been given any information by the Minister on that point. He has told us that it is a matter for the National Stud, but we are handing over this sum of £250,000 without getting any details. The cost of that insurance has been estimated at about £9,000, and it will probably be something in the region of that figure, which is going to leave us about £7,000 profit from this horse in a full year.

It can be argued that the progeny of the horse will pay for everything, but there are several angles from which that can be looked at as well. It has been stated, and so far has not been denied by those in a position to know, that the previous owner of the horse has the right to four nominations. I presume one of the main objects at the back of the minds of those who instigated the purchase of this horse was the securing of dollars. Why should not the potentate who has sold this horse sell the progeny of his four mares, as he probably may, outside this country and pay in the cheque he receives to an English bank? Where is the revenue to the Irish nation then?It has been argued that, if we do not buy this horse, people will not come to the horse show to buy our progeny, but I have seen them coming in the spring and the autumn for years and they will continue to come, whether we buy Tulyar or not.

The Fianna Fáil Party are not really in touch with realities. If they were, they would not be so vociferous in their support of this transaction. I have said already that I am proud, as every Deputy is, of our reputation as a horse-breeding nation. Reference has been made to the vast number of unemployed, and I am sorry for the unemployed, just the same as everybody else is. I think it is a national tragedy that we should have them. But the unemployed are not the only persons who are concerned about the purchase of this horse. The majority of the people of this country think that it is politics gone stark raving mad to invest this sum of money in the purchase of the horse. I do not think it is justified under any circumstances.

It has been stated that the United States of America, a wealthy nation and the most powerful nation in the world, were prepared to give £321,000 for the horse but that we were allowed to purchase it on account of the owner's love for the Irish nation. I think that is very hard to swallow. Anybody who has anything to do with horse breeding knows well that you do not meet many philanthropists when you are trying to buy a horse. I feel that this purchase is unjustified. Surely there is another horse of good classic standard to be got somewhere. This is an unproven and untried sire. It is quite possible to buy a horse at a price more in keeping with the circumstances that prevail in Ireland to-day.

I think that the purchase of this horse for a sum of £250,000 is an unwarranted foolishness and I do not feel justified in voting for it. I know that the members of the Fianna Fáil Party will troop into the Lobby and vote for it; I cannot blame them for doing so because they are tied and have to do it. In a case like this,however, I think the Government should leave the matter to a free vote and give everybody a chance of voting according to the dictates of his conscience. For my part, I am absolutely satisfied that I will be doing the right thing by my constituents and by the Irish people when I vote against this proposal.

As an ordinary worker in a small town where there are 400 on the unemployed register, and with 200 road and quarry workers out of employment, I want to signify my protest at the purchase of this animal at the price which has been paid for it. At a time when the housing drive is slowing up and when more and more people are losing their employment I feel that I would not adequately be representing my constituents if I did not voice my opinion on the matter of the purchase of this horse. The horse may be all right but the price to the Irish people is all wrong. That is the position.

One of the English newspapers states to-day that Tulyar is worth his weight in gold. If that is so, why is it that Britain did not purchase him—a nation which is richer than this nation? We remember only too well the speech which the Minister for Finance made in this House on the last Budget. We know only too well the effect which the partial removal of the subsidies on food has had on many homes throughout the country. There has been an increase in the purchase price of the loaf of bread, in tea, sugar, cigarettes, tobacco, beer and spirits. The Government sought to obtain money even from the poorest section of the community and yet, just a few months after the Budget, they can come along and negotiate for the purchase of this horse.

The Aga Khan announced three weeks ago that the Irish Stud had purchased this horse. This House was not told about the negotiations. The Minister comes along now and asks his own Party and members of other Parties to vote £250,000 for the purchase of Tulyar. Of course, the Minister boosted up the animal's value.I have here a racing and breeding paper dated February 14th. In that paper, I read that the cost of Tulyar is £250,000, that insurance at 4 per cent, will cost £10,000, that interest on capital at 5 per cent, will amount to £12,500 and that the expense of keeping the animal will amount to £500. I suppose all the expenditure does not end there. These figures may seem all right to people who are making plenty of money—the well-to-do people who go to Punchestown, Fairyhouse and other racecourses and pay £1 admission. Last night we heard a Deputy talking about all the working-class people who go to races.

If a working-class person goes to a race meeting there is a hell of a difference between him and the well-to-do person. He pays 2/6 while the well-to-do person pays £1. He is not let near the paddock unless he pays 15/- or £1: otherwise he must stand outside on the ditch away altogether from the big grand stands.

At the moment we have 85,000 registered unemployed and there are many more of our people on home assistance. The present Government is being kept in office by three or four Independents.

Such a Government has no mandate from the people to come to this House now and, in the existing serious unemployment situation, ask the House to vote this large sum of money for the purchase of Tulyar. We do not forget that not very long ago various Ministers of the present Government went throughout the country making speeches on our serious economic position. We do not forget that they told the people that the Coalition Government had broken the country and that the sooner Fianna Fáil were returned to office the better it would be for all concerned. I wonder what the ordinary man in the street thinks now when he remembers all those speeches by members of the Fianna Fáil Party. Every person in my constituency whom I met this morning told me to be sure and cast my vote against the purchase of this animal at such a high cost from the Aga Khan. The Aga Khan is a millionaire. If he were interested in Irish racing he could have kept Tulyarat his stud in County Kildare. If he were interested in the farmers of Ireland he could have kept Tulyar at that stud and charged a fee.

Hear, hear!

I wonder how many small farmers who keep a thoroughbred mare will be able to bring the mare to this stallion and pay £400 or £500 or whatever the fee will be: I understand the fee is not known yet. We hear talk about the employment which will be created as a result of the purchase of this animal. I must say that I was surprised to hear Government Deputies defend the purchase of this animal at the price which was paid for it. As a Deputy remarked here last night, what about all the fine horses which we had for escorting the President of this country and for the purchase of which this House voted money? They were all scrapped and replaced by British-made motor-cycles run on Russian oil. Just think of that. Then we hear talk about——

The Deputy is straying from the Bill.

Why did we get rid of those horses?

Who got rid of them?

You did, and your Party.

The Coalition Government got rid of them—the Government which you supported.

You sent them to be canned. You are letting every horse in the country be canned for Belgium, France and elsewhere. Then you come along and talk about the great bloodstock industry.

You are throwing your hat at it.

The whole world is crying out at the slaughter of Irish animals—some of which were bought in Ballsbridge.

The Deputy must keep to the Bill.

He has gone very much astray.

I believe that in the present circumstances of grave unemployment, emigration, restriction of credit and of housing grants, and with a cut of over £250,000 in the vote for the forestry section, the purchase of this horse by the Government at a price of £250,000 cannot be justified. Thousands of people in Dublin City and elsewhere are clamouring for a day's work. In my own little town of a population of 6,000, there are 400 registered unemployed. Inside two weeks or, at the most, two months there will be another 100 unemployed there because the housing scheme is finishing and we cannot get sanction from the Minister for Local Government to proceed further. For these reasons, I stand up here and voice the wishes of the people who sent me here to represent them. After all the talk by members of the Fianna Fáil Party during the general election and at the by-elections about the serious economic state of the country, the people are horrified now at the expenditure of this large sum of money on the purchase of this horse. We are giving the Aga Khan £250,000 and we gave the dance-hall proprietors £140,000.

I do not know how any representative of the people in the Fianna Fáil Party can justify voting for this measure. I wish they were allowed to come in here and speak their minds on this matter as freely as I am speaking my mind. I regret that they must follow the Party line. They were not sent in here by the people to do everything that the Taoiseach does. He can make mistakes just like anybody else: so can the Minister for Agriculture and so can the National Stud.

Everyone makes mistakes. This House should have been notified that this purchase was going to be made. The farmers went on strike the other day because of the price they are getting for milk. The Government gave them nothing, and they gave nothing to the civil servants.

Deputy should keep to the Bill.

I am showing where the money can come out of when it suits the Government.

We heard a lot about the Olympic Games a short time ago.

That also was ruled out of order.

The working classes are the people who suffer through the action of the Fianna Fáil Government. The have been suffering since they got back into power. They sold the agricultural machinery and that caused unemployment in the rural areas. I do not blame the Minister. He probably has no say in this except to come into the House and make a case for it. We have people, too, on the Fine Gael side. I do not agree with their leader on this. I like to be consistent. They voted against the airplanes. Let them vote now against the purchase of this horse, and, as a Party, be consistent. To my mind, since this Government came back, the country has gone back into the old grooves of unemployment and emigration. During the three and a half years of the inter-Party Government, a man could go into the room of the Taoiseach and tell him what he thought and what the people thought. It is not the same with the Fianna Fáil Government. In the time of the inter-Party Government, Deputy Cogan wanted to get better prices for the farmers, but to-day he is saying nothing.

The House is not discussing Deputy Cogan.

But he is going to vote £250,000 to the Aga Khan, and during the milk strike he said nothing on behalf of the farmers when they were looking for an increase in the price of milk. This is a very small country, with only 26 counties. The people are expected to buy Constellations, racehorses and to carry C.I.E. on their backs. The last payment it got was £1,500,000. Yet, money cannot be found to provide subsidies to keep down the price of the necessaries of life for the people. That is why I am going to vote with the Labour Party and to support Deputy Dunne in this.It is outrageous to be told that there is no money for anything. The Estimates have been cut down, and we are told that there is no money for the national teachers, the Civic Guards or the civil servants. At the same time we are able to find £250,000 to give to the richest man in the world for a horse. A racing paper has this to say about Tulyar: —

"Whether Tulyar would in any case be the type of horse the Americans want for their particular sort of racing is beside the point. This is that the mere fact that such an offer has been made excites in certain other people a desire `not to lose something', which seems to me to cut right across a reasoned purchasing plan. Whether Tulyar is raced this year or not, such a policy will normally have three results."

Why do they not run him this year in the Derby if he is such a great horse, and try him in it? He ran in two seasons only, lightly in one season.

He might break his leg in the Derby.

The Aga Khan is a clever man and he would not chance him. I am sure he tried him with the best horses he has, and he knows that he would not win the Derby. If the Government think they have a great horse to put into the Derby, if they think that they have purchased the right animal, then they should run him this year and see if he will win it. If he does, we want the money, and let it come to the Oireachtas.

Mr. Walsh

Will you back him?

I think I will wait and see what kind of two and three-year-olds he produces. If his sons and daughters are good racehorses, then everyone will have 1/- each way on them. It may be thought that he cannot be beaten, but people can be mistaken about that.

Try him in the Grand National.

Try him some place. Do not buy a pig in a bag. It maybe that you got the wrong one. I think the day has come when this class of purchase should not be a gamble. Deputy Briscoe let the cat out of the bag when he said that the Government were gambling.

Mr. Walsh

I think you let the cat out of the bag from the Labour Benches.

He is a great gambler. He gambled on the old cows in Roscrea, in the South African coal and in the salami and sausages in Clonmel.

The Deputy will please resume his seat.

I will. I have finished.

Since the days of the late Boss Croker, who caused a furore in royal circles by refusing to accept the personal congratulations of the then reigning monarch in England when his horse Orby won the Derby, I do not think any other horse has caused such a flutter in executive circles in this country as Tulyar. Now, I do not propose to back this Bill each way. I am, and let me say it at once, completely against the Bill. I am not going to endeavour to run down the merits of the horse Tulyar. Neither am I going to criticise the personnel of the executive of the National Stud. What I want to say is that this is not the time, and this is not the year, in which we should invest £250,000 in one horse. The horse may be the greatest racehorse which this century has seen. His progeny may prove to be the greatest that this country has ever seen, but remember, as someone has said, he is an Irish-bred horse. Why may we not hope to produce another Tulyar next year or the year after? Where have the sire and the dam of this horse gone to? It may be that their next foal may be equally as good. As I say, this is not the time in which to invest £250,000 in a horse.

The Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste on many occasions within the past 18 months have told us that the Revenue Commissioners, the Central Bank and the advisers of the Department of Finance are continually showing the red light that we are spendingtoo much. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Fisheries told us that he agrees that he is not getting a fair allocation of money for the expansion of our fisheries. The same may be said about forestry. To put more money into both our fisheries and our forestry would be a good capital investment. It would be of much more importance to the country than to spend £250,000 on the purchase of one horse. If our fisheries were flourishing, if our forestry were in the flourishing condition in which we would desire it to be, if our tourist roads were 100 per cent. fit to carry the tourist traffic we expect, if we were living in Utopia, then I would say, by all means, invest £250,000 in this gamble on a good horse which may prove to be anything but a good sire.

We have been told that a considerable amount of money is brought into this country by tourists who attend race meetings and sales and shows at Ballsbridge. I quite agree. We want to see tourists spending their money in seeing the tourist sights of rural Ireland. We do not want them to spend their money in the luxury hotels for the plutocrats in the City of Dublin. We want to see them in Donegal, Mayo, Galway, down the western seaboard, in what are called the undeveloped areas. That is where we want to see them.

I was more than surprised to hear my friend and colleague from West Donegal, Deputy Brennan, supporting this Bill. If we could get one fraction of the price of even a horseshoe of Tulyar for the development of our tourist industry in West Donegal we would be doing much better, and I would have pleasure in supporting any Bill promoted by a Minister for that purpose.

There is one thing that it is quite clear that this Bill has done: it has killed for all time the dishonest political campaign which the Minister for Finance has been carrying on since 19th July, 1951. Deputies will remember that on that day the present Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, came into this House and made his first speech after being appointed Minister and started thenthe wail of woe that the country was broke, that it was bankrupt, that there was no money for anything. The introduction of this Bill, the approval of this purchase by the Government, has put paid to that dishonest campaign that was initiated by the present Minister for Finance. If it does nothing else, I hope it will end that type of dishonesty which has become so nauseating from the Minister for Finance, particularly in the past six months.

Last night, the Minister for Agriculture said that a great deal of the criticism in regard to Tulyar was ill-informed. I agree with him that a great deal of the criticism is uninformed and the person I blame for that is the Minister. The Minister, with a singular lack of efficiency, with that display of cuteness to which we have become so accustomed when he wants to hide something, endeavoured to give the impression when this matter was first raised that there was a good deal more behind it than, in fact, there really is. The Minister should apologise very profusely to those people who are responsible for running the National Stud for the hash that he has made of the propaganda case for the purchase of this horse.

He should make it quite clear, even at this late stage, that there is a case that could be made on the merits and a case which they, as servants of the Government, are unable, because of their position, to make for themselves. For some reason best known to himself, he has tried to shroud the whole question of this purchase in mystery, instead of being frank with the House and the public. If he had been frank, honest and honourable with the House and the public there would not have been any of the uninformed criticism that there has been about the transaction.

The Minister got an opportunity, when Deputy Dunne raised this question on the Adjournment some time ago, of dispelling the rumours that are current everywhere. He chose to be cheap and to sneer instead of doing his job as Minister and bringing the facts out to the public. If there has beencriticism that was not informed there is one person who is responsible for that: that is the Minister.

I think the price that is being paid for Tulyar is much too high but I do not hold myself out in any way as an expert on breeding. For all I know, it may be that for the 11 mares that are at the National Stud it was absolutely essential to get a certain line of blood to cross and to mate with them and that the only line of blood that would suit them, to build up the proper foundation of mares for that stud, was the Tulyar line. If that is so—and I have heard people suggest that it is—it would be one reason which could be put forward in respect of this purchase.

We have had no indication from the Minister as to whether the primary purpose was to buy this sire as an investment for the build-up of the stud, as an investment for the build-up of the national thoroughbred stock or as an investment from a monetary angle. Personally, I think we may rule out the last alternative completely. There is no possibility that I can see of Tulyar being an investment in the ordinary sense, in terms of pounds, shillings and pence.

When we took over the National Stud in 1945 we were given a piece of land that had a great reputation as being some of the best land in the world on which to breed bloodstock. We were given no foundation mares, no bloodstock with which to start breeding. It is inevitable, therefore, that the build-up of the stock in order to make that stud a success in the national interest is a thing that will take considerable time and that will be done by investment in bloodstock that will not show a return in the ordinary monetary sense.

One must take a long-term view of the matter. Personally I think that if we were spending £250,000 on the purchase of bloodstock it should have been possible to get what was required, not perhaps quite at the top flight, for a very substantially less sum. One of the things that worries me about this purchase is that, obviously, for a horse like this, you must select the 40 best mares available to send to himbecause, if you do not, you will not build up his reputation as a sire. You must first of all, particularly in the early years, send only the very best mares to him in the hope that these mares will bring foals that, in their two-year-old season as racehorses, will be successful and will therefore establish at an early date the success of the horse as a sire.

I wonder what proportion of the 40 mares in question that are the best and most suitable to be sent to this horse are mares that we can say with confidence will always be left here, that we can say with confidence the produce of the sales of their progeny is money that will come into this country and be retained in this country. I am afraid it is a very small proportion. That is why I suggest that the National Stud would be doing a better service, perhaps, in raising the general level of thorough-breeding rather than in aiming at raising the very topmost level for mares that may quite easily be taken away in time and brought back to their country of true ownership.

There is no doubt that the purchase of this horse will bring a substantial amount of prestige. I am not at all so sure, however, that if Tulyar had been sold to America the fact that it was born and bred here might not earn even a better prestige for Irish horses in America. It might be a better advertisement if he were over there as a sire rather than here. It has been suggested, however, by people who know far more about this than I do, that no sire will ever be successful in the American climate in the same way as it would be successful in this climate. So far as I am concerned, I feel that I must rely for judgment in this matter on the people whom I believe are experts at their job. They were undoubtedly the authorised agents of the Irish people and as such were entitled to make the contract they did make. We cannot turn around now, as they were authorised in that respect, and tell them that on behalf of the Irish people we propose to welsh on a contract duly and validly made. For that reason, if for no other, I personally feel constrained to support the proposal.

I want to say, however, that the one person responsible for most of the difficulty in regard to this transaction is the Minister for Agriculture. If he had come out openly and said that it was the normal practice for nominations to be reserved on the sale of a stallion, and that so many nominations were reserved to the vendor on this occasion, and that these nominations were to be paid for at the ruling price, then we would not have had the mad rumours which were careering through the country that ten nominations were to be given free to the Aga Khan as a result of this transaction.

The only reason these rumours gained currency was because the Minister was not frank in stating what the position was. If the Minister had come out frankly and said what was the position, whether this horse was to be raced in the current season or not, it would be far easier to kill and scotch the rumours that were going round. We do not yet know whether it is proposed to race the horse in the coming season. The only thing we do know in that respect is that he will not be raced in the Derby. But, personally, I think it would be a mad gamble for the State to permit this horse, no matter what money might be involved, to race this year. We would be asking for trouble. One defeat and the horse might be easily worth very considerably less afterwards.

Let us face the issue that, frankly, this is not an investment in the ordinary sense of the term. I believe, and I have said so during the past one and a half years, that for anything worthwhile there is ample money in the State to do it. We have impressed that time and time again upon the Minister for Finance and it is only that Minister's foolish outlook that says the contrary. There are adequate funds in the country to meet the purchase of this horse and for doing all the things which are worthwhile.

It is on that basis that the question of building up the National Stud from a long-term point of view should be approached, the benefit that there will be to breeding as a whole and the export to the dollar area. A sum of£250,000 is a very small amount in export at present. The figures show that the export of thorough breds to the dollar countries is about the only thing that shows an immediate prospect of a reasonable increase in our trade. Those things can be done. But let us be frank and let us get rid of the hugger-mugger fostered by the Minister about it. Let us have the facts put on the table. Let us have put on record in this House what is intended to be done about the people's property. It is no good for the Minister to shelter behind others and say this is not his decision, that it is a matter for the directors. This is the people's property and, no matter by whom the decision is taken, the people have a right to be told what the position is and be able to judge on the true facts when they are properly presented.

As a dairy and tillage farmer, I wish to protest against the purchase of this horse. I consider the price is out of all keeping with an agricultural country such as this is, especially at a time when the financial position is not on a very sound footing and when the number of unemployed his risen to 90,000. Apparently it is very hard on the Minister for Agriculture to grant an increase of 3d. or 4d. to the sorely-tried dairy farmers who are the heart and soul and life-blood of the nation at a time when the cost of production has gone up immensely, and it has gone up immensely within the past two years. I consider it is very unwise of the Minister to pay out £250,000, as well as the cost of insurance, etc., at a time when we are told by the Minister for Finance that we are on the verge of bankruptey.

Which, of course, is not true.

The purchase of this horse will not be of any use to the farmer with a good mare. What farmer can pay £500 or £600 of a fee—in all probability this horse will be standing at that price—with the groom's fee thrown in? We have heard a good deal about the employment which willbe given. What will it be in comparison to the amount of employment that dairying and tillage are giving? I think it is quite unreasonable to pay £250,000 for a sire that is unproved at the stud.

It seems to me that poor Tulyar has been ridden almost to death in this House during the past two days. Now that we are on the straight for home I suppose I can afford to take it easy, because as far as the discussion has gone no argument has been put forward in support of the rejection of this measure which is to increase the capital of the National Stud. There has been a lot of unreality in this discussion. We are not asking for money to buy Tulyar. We are asking this House to increase the capital of the National Stud. That is what I brought this Bill in for.

That is where you made the mistake.

Mr. Walsh

The people who have been opposed to building up this industry have come along and made this a crossroads debate. They have been using this House for propaganda purposes and for nothing else. You have not faced the realities and you know that. What have all the other projects that we have in the country to do with the building up of the National Stud?

There are several other branches of agriculture that Agriculture has to be responsible for. Am I to go over the list of the various branches that I have to provide money for from year to year and from month to month? During the past 20 years, for instance, the live-stock industry has been built up by way of subsidies, by way of premiums and so forth to the extent of £2,000,000. Deputy Dillon expended a sum of £360,000 on machinery to reclaim the land of the country. These matters have been approved of by the House. There has been no objection to them. But when I come along to look for money——

Sure, you are going to sell the machinery.

Mr. Walsh

——in order to build up a very important industry, the bloodstock industry, everybody gets up and opposes the measure.

They do not.

Mr. Walsh

That is what you have been doing. You have opposed the granting of capital to this very important industry and, no matter what you say, you cannot get away from that fact. There is no use in drawing red herrings about Tulyar into this discussion. I have mentioned that many things had to be done there. For years, or for some time past—I think Deputy Dillon will agree with me—the directors of the National Stud have been trying to get a long-distance horse to put to stud. They have not succeeded in getting him over the past two or three years, and even if they did get him at any time within that period it would have been necessary for Deputy Dillon, if he was Minister for Agriculture, to come before the House for an increase in capital because they had not sufficient money to purchase a horse. The same applies as far as mares are concerned. They are bringing some high-class mares there still in order to equip the stud as it should be equipped. Deputy Dillon hit the right note when he said this is a National Stud.

Wonders will never cease.

Mr. Walsh

If you are going to starve it, get rid of it. Let it be one way or the other. What do Deputies want? Do you want to starve it? Do you want to make it a second-rate or third-rate stud? Is that your conception of what a National Stud should be? I believe this country, small as it is, with its reputation for horseflesh, is entitled to the best and to nothing less than the best. We are entitled to have here as good a National Stud as they have in England or America, and it is for that reason I believe the House should have no hesitation in giving this capital to the directors.

The directors have gone into the market for stallions. They have been responsible for the purchase of RoyalCharger. He is a credit to the country, to the people who bought him, and his progeny have been a credit to the country. I mentioned also in my opening speech that we have a certain sum of money there of unexpended capital. It is not sufficient to buy Tulyar. It is not even sufficient to buy the mares we want. It is necessary, for the purpose of buying more mares and buying this sire, to increase that capital to £500,000.

As I stated in my opening speech, we have the climate and the soil and the skill but we have not the breeding to put our bloodstock where it should be put. I do believe that in the purchase of Tulyar the people who are directly responsible for building up the National Stud have taken the right step and one that I heartily approve of. This horse has been proved on the racecourse to be the best in the world and I have proof of that in the letters and testimonials that I have had from a number of people. I would like to quote one. I am sure his name is well known in this country. He wired to me and said:—

"Congratulations on the purchase of Tulyar for Ireland. He is the best horse in the world from five furlongs to five miles and will increase the value of Irish bloodstock to the extent of many millions of pounds.

Michael Beary."

There were several other testimonials sent in.

The man who sent that wire is no geneticist.

Mr. Walsh

He may not be but he is a judge of horseflesh and possibly a better judge of horseflesh than some of the gentlemen who got up here last night, disclaimed all knowledge of horseflesh but yet treated this House to arguments lasting over an hour telling the House what they did not know about it.

Simply because we think human beings are more important than horseflesh.

Mr. Walsh

That is the line of argument. You know nothing about it; yet, you wasted the time of the Housetalking about it. It was crossroads stuff. Deputy Dillon stated that if we are to have a stud let it be the best. I agree with him on that. Some other Deputy stated there were certain nominations being given away in the purchase. I am not directly responsible for this purchase. Neither is the Government. The people directly responsible for the purchase are the directors. Any information I have or give the House, it is through the directors I am giving it. I am not too sure whether they are under any obligation to me or the House to give the information I am going to give you now. They are charged with the responsibility of running it and ours is to provide the money to run it. Have you confidence in them? If you have not confidence in them to provide the money that this House votes, then you have your remedy and your remedy is to get rid of them. But have any of you the temerity to come in here and propose that the National Stud be done away with and the directors dismissed?

Are you suggesting we have not the right to question it?

The Deputy and the members of the House got an ample opportunity of discussing this matter.

On a point of order. If the Minister would refrain from the unparliamentary practice of addressing Deputies individually a good deal of disorder might be avoided.

Mr. Walsh

That is not a point of order.

If the Minister looks for interruptions he will get them.

Mr. Walsh

Sit down. You will not get away with that.

Mr. Walsh

It was suggested by some of the Deputies that the Aga Khan was demanding nominations—I take it, free nominations. That is not so. If he has nominations it is a good thing. He has made a stipulation Iunderstand in the sale of the horse that he must get four nominations for which he is prepared to pay. Let us argue that for a moment. Is it not a good thing he has asked for these nominations?

Why did the Minister not tell us that a fortnight ago?

What is wrong with it?

Why were you hiding it?

Mr. Walsh

He has the best mares in the world and it is an advantage to have his mares coming to the National Stud because it ensures that the mares sired by Tulyar will be, if not the best, equal to the best there is in the world and the progeny of these mares will be first-rate and top rank. Is it not a good thing we have them? I think any stud owner would be delighted if he had an assurance when he was putting his horse to stud that he had four mares of the type and quality that the Aga Khan has. I think he would be delighted with himself, and not merely have four from him but from three or four others in the same way. It is a good thing to have them and for that reason I believe that the National Stud is very lucky that the Aga Khan has asked for four nominations and will get them. Deputy Dunne seemed to be under the impression that there was a lot of bluffing going on regarding the purchase of this horse. He stated that it was reported that an American was prepared to buy the horse but that he did not believe it.

You might tell the truth. That is not what I said.

Mr. Walsh

You said that we were bluffing.

I asked what proof had we got. That will cut no ice.

Mr. Walsh

Nobody knows more about bluffing in this House than the same Deputy Dunne. I know his capabilities at bluffing. I have here an American magazine called The Blood-Horse.It has here a column devoted to the syndication of Tulyar and it states that the syndication is now nearly completed and he is coming tothe United States. This is a quotation fromThe Blood-Horse, dated 3rd January, 1953——

Before the Minister reads this, might it not be well to ask him a question?

Mr. Walsh

——in order to dispel any doubts in the minds of those on the opposite benches.

Who put this column in The Blood-Horse?

Deputy Dunne.

More dirty water.

Mr. Walsh

The following is the quotation:—

"The year 1951 saw the emergence of the first $1,000,000-winner on the racecourse. The year 1953 may become notable for the first sale of a racehorse for $1,000,000.

Mrs. Cooper Persons, mistress of Llangollen Farms at Upperville, Vancouver, has obtained from the Aga Khan an agreement to sell Tulyar unbeaten as a three-year-old in England in 1952, and is organising a syndicate to bring the colt to the United States. At the rate of $33,000 a share, a total of about $750,000 already has been subscribed, mostly by Eastern breeders, Mrs. Persons told The Blood-Horsethis week.

Actually, since the Aga Khan has indicated he would like to breed about half a dozen of his own mares to the horse, the cash transaction would be something less than $1,000,000, but if the sale is made the price, however estimated, will be the highest ever for a thoroughbred horse.

Arrangements for the purchase, Mrs. Persons said, are `almost complete'. She expected to be able to make a more definite announcement within the next two or three weeks.

Tulyar, a brown colt by the wartime St. Leger winner, Tehran, out of the high-class Neocracy, by Nearco out of Trigo's high-class sister, Harina, by Blandford, has been kept in training under thedirection of Marcus Marsh, with the expectation that he would run in this year's Ascot Gold Cup, possibly the Prix de Triomphe, and other important races. If he comes to the United States, the question as to whether he races here will be left to the decision of the shareholders, Mrs. Persons said.

The decision as to where he will stand if he enters the stud in America has already been made. `He will be right here at Llangollen,' Mrs. Persons stated.

In English papers the Aga Khan has been quoted as denying that he is selling Tulyar at the reported offer of $1,000,000. He was roundly scolded in the English Press for selling Blenheim II, Mahmoud, and Bahram to buyers in the United States, and probably would come in for a still more thorough shellacking if he sold Tulyar.

Mrs. Persons, however, says that the deal now awaits only the completion of the syndicate. She expects to go to Europe, if necessary, to complete the negotiation, and incidentally to see the yearlings she has sent there to be trained and the mares for which she has engaged seasons to Tehran, Tabriz, Palestrine, and other stallions."

So that is not all bluff.

Who wrote that?

Mr. Walsh

It is written in The Blood-Horse.

That does not prove anything.

Mr. Walsh

It was written in a reputable magazine. If it was written in the Irish IndependentI suppose it would be accepted.

I would ask the members not to interrupt.

Mr. Walsh

It is a good, reputable magazine dealing with horseflesh.

The Minister has a good case. He should not be spoiling it.

Mr. Walsh

Some of the Deputies here tried to spoil it before I came in. The case can stand on its own ground. I want to try to give explanations for the things that have been said, and prove to this House that there has been no question of bluffing. That is what I want to get on record. We have not been bluffed nor have the directors been bluffed into buying this horse. It is an acquisition and as I stated yesterday in reply to some of the questions that were put to me across the House it is a national investment and it should be termed as such. We take the first crop of foals or yearlings from Tulyar and, assuming the same system prevails in his case as prevailed in the case of Royal Charger, where 25 per cent. were selected and 75 per cent. balloted for, we can assume that at least 75 per cent. of his crop will remain here. Even taking the first year, my argument is this, that the progeny of Tulyar are worth £2,000 more per yearling than that of any other horse we could buy. We could buy a horse for £160,000. Let us assume its progeny averaged £3,000. I claim that the progeny of Tulyar are value for £2,000 more than the progeny of that horse. That in itself is £30,000 coming into the country or the equivalent in dollars. If the Americans who seemed to be very anxious to purchase this horse are so fond of him they will come and buy his progeny. But let us assume it is even sterling that comes in here. It is £30,000 coming into this country, not, as Deputy Murphy said, into the pockets of some of the people who are engaged in racing. It is coming into the country whoever gets it, whether it is the small breeder or the large breeder.

It is money coming into the country which reduces the adverse trade balance of the country. It puts more money in circulation here at home. There is income-tax paid on it, and in that way it is value to the country and everybody gets some value from it, even the people whom Deputy Dunne seemed to be so concerned about last night when he wanted to make a crossroads speech in talking of the unemployed.

You are going high andmighty. You will have a lot to answer for at the crossroads.

Mr. Walsh

In years to come when the value of this horse is known—and we all hope it will have a successful career—and that money is coming in here, if it is £100,000 or if it is £60,000, whatever it is, it is a gain not for the individual people who are engaged in racing but for the country as a whole. That is one thing we seem to forget, that this is a capital investment. It may be said that there is a gamble in it. There is a gamble in everything. The farmer has to gamble in the same way every time he goes to a fair. Does he not gamble when he sows the seed? Does he know what type of weather he will get? Does he know what type of harvest he will have? Does he know if he will ever reap the corn he has sown? Some of the Deputies who go to the crossroads to speak at election time think that they have nothing to do but walk in here.

It will be a bigger gamble the next time. There will be a bigger risk.

Mr. Walsh

It is all a gamble. This may be a gamble in the minds of the people on the opposite benches, but in my opinion it is a sound investment in the bloodstock industry of the country. No matter what horse you buy he runs the same risks at the stud. If you paid £100,000 he runs the same risks as this horse that cost £250,000.

It has been demonstrated, I think, by people who have a knowledge of horse-breeding and of the bloodstock industry generally that it was necessary to have a staying horse, a long-distance horse, in this country. Let us assume that we go out in the morning and pay £100,000 for another horse. Does he not run the same risk as Tulyar? Why try to magnify the risks that are now being run, as some Deputies try to, when they talk about the colossal price paid for that horse? You are running the same risk with the £100,000 horse as you are with the horse costing £250,000 and, from that point of view, it is a gamble.

Deputy Dillon put me a question asto what was my opinion regarding racing this horse this year. I am not offering any opinion because, if I did, I might in that way prejudice the attitude or the decisions of the people who are responsible for the future of Tulyar. It is for that reason I am not going to express an opinion. I hold as strong an opinion as any member in this House, but I am not going to prejudice the decisions or the opinions of the people who will be responsible for the future of the horse at the stud.

No case has been made for a refusal to increase the capital. The question at issue here is not whether you are going to buy this horse; it is a question of whether you are going to retain the National Stud or not. If you decide to retain it, then you must provide the capital. If you refuse to give them the capital, let there be no equivocation about it, you say we do not want the National Stud. Remember that this country has always been renowned for the horses it produced, whether as bloodstock, as Army jumpers, or civilian jumpers. Our horses have brought prestige to the country not merely in the jumping field, or in bloodstock circles but in every army in the world to which we sent troopers and in which our horses were known.

As I said in my opening speech, it has been proved that we have the soil and the climate to produce such horses, and all we want is the breeders. The directors of the National Stud have gone out to get the breed, and I ask the House to support them by giving them the money they need.

May I ask who is accepting the insurance of this horse?

Mr. Walsh

The insurance of the horse and the management of the horse generally are the responsibility of the directors—their complete responsibility.

I maintain that when this House is asked to subscribe the money, the House is entitled to know what is the insurance or to whom the insurance is paid on this horse.

Mr. Walsh

The horse is not theproperty of the directors until it is paid for. The question of the transport of the horse, the insurance of the horse and the management of the horse in future is solely a matter for those people who are responsible for the management and direction of the National Stud.

I suggest that the Minister, being responsible to the House, should see that the State should take over the complete insurance of this horse.

The Minister mentioned yesterday that quite apart from this transaction, the issued capital of the company was being increased from £190,000 to £194,000. What is the significance of the additional £4,000?

Mr. Walsh

Purchases that had been made by the National Stud. It was unissued capital. If the Deputy reads the speech, he will find that £55,000 of the original capital is still unissued. That will be increased in the next few years.

What is the significance of the £4,000?

Mr. Walsh

It is just part of the unissued capital.

Who is it being paid to?

Mr. Walsh

The directors, of course. They have exhausted all the money issued up to the moment and they are looking for this £4,000 and possibly for the other £55,000.

Who holds the capital—the Minister for Finance?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Is he taking up the extra £4,000?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

The Minister in the course of his speech appeared to disown completely responsibility for the stud. Might I suggest to him that on reflection it might occur to him that while in practice the day-to-day management of the stud is always left to the boardof directors, so far as I know the Minister for Agriculture has never divested himself of the right, if he deemed it requisite to exercise it, to give a direction or to require information? I quite agree that normally it should be left to the board but I should not like to hear the Minister say that he acknowledged that he had no right to requisition information or to give adirection if he deemed it his duty to do so.

Mr. Walsh

I did not suggest that I had no right to give a direction at any time but I believe that when men are doing their job well, it is better to let them do it.

That is a good way of getting out of it. How much insurance is going to be paid on this horse?

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 30.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas N.J.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Finan, John.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Mac Fheórais and Kyne.
Question declared carried.

Tulyar wins again.

Mr. O'Higgins

Tulyar wins in a canter.

We will not agree to all stages of this Bill being taken now because of the dishonest method adopted by the Minister in his closing speech when he tried to deny all responsibility. In spite of that, however, I voted for the Bill.

Mr. Walsh

You had to. You could not face the people of Kildare.

I believe the Bill is above the Minister.

Why did Deputy Norton decline the mount?

It has put paid to the dishonest tactics of the Minister for Finance. That is one thing certain.

Committee Stage ordered for next Wednesday.
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