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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1953

Vol. 136 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - National Stud Bill, 1953—Money Resolution (Resumed).

This Money Resolution is to authorise the Government to pay from the Central Fund and the growing produce thereof the amount necessary to carry this Bill into effect. When I heard it said during the debate that this would put no expense on the Exchequer I was rather astounded because if that were the position there would be no necessity for this Money Resolution. I should like to approach this matter in a reasonable way and see whether it is wise to spend this sum of money in this way. The proposal, of course, is twofold. The one certainty is, no matter what the Minister may say to the contrary, that it is going to increase the revenue of the Aga Khan by £250,000. What it is going to bring to the people of this country I am not sure.

Those who know anything about sire horses are aware that, for the first two or three years, the earnings of an animal with Tulyar's reputation are going to be fairly substantial. I think there can be no doubt that as regards his first lot of two and three-year olds full earnings will be secured. The Minister estimates that the income may be as high as £20,000 per annum. I have no doubt in view of Tulyar's reputation, that this sum will be easily realised. especially when we take into account his performances, plus the value of his progeny. Therefore, I think the Minister's estimate of between £16,000 and £20,000 is well-founded. There is, I think, the certainty that the income for the first three years will amount to £60,000. A question will then arise as to the performances of his progeny. If they are good, then everything is going to be right, and the money has been well spent. It is, however, a gamble to that extent.

In trying to approach this matter in a reasonable way, I put this question to myself: suppose the Irish National Stud did not buy Tulyar, that he was sold elsewhere, let us suppose, to the United States or to Britain, and that this country, therefore, did not have the opportunity of having his service, I wonder what criticism would be made of the Tully Stud? Would people say: "why did you not buy the horse; why did the National Stud let a good horse like that leave the country?" I do not think anybody has faced up to the matter from that angle. This is a time when there is financial stringency in other directions. I do not want to get suspended, and if I do transgress I hope to obey the ruling of the Chair. But I will say this: at a time when the Government feels that money can only be procured at 5 per cent. for all the things that it is necessary to get done it is an astounding fact that they can throw this vast sum into this kitty for the purpose of buying this horse, notwithstanding the Minister's contradiction.

The Minister did not help his casewhen he interjected that the sum of £250,000 was not for the purchase of Tulyar but to extend the capital of the company. I want to point out that the Minister was not fair to himself. It is true that he covered himself subsequently. He asserted, as reported at column 1603 of the Dáil Debates, 25th February, 1953:—

"The enactment of this Bill is now urgently necessary following on the recent acquisition of the company of a very valuable horse named Tulyar."

He does say that the directors have been searching for a suitable sire.

Mr. Walsh


I say you covered yourself. But, the urgent necessity now is because they purchased Tulyar.

Mr. Walsh


I want to know from the Minister if he is satisfied that Tulyar is as good as he is said to be. I want to know if he and the directors of the National Stud have fully examined in every way the whole question of his performance. In horse racing and in dog racing reputations have been made that were not justified. His Excellency the Aga Khan can do a lot of things. I am not too happy that, if it was somebody owning a smaller stable who had Tulyar, he would have met with the same success. These are problems that I am sure the Minister and the company have taken into consideration. I am in favour of the purchase of Tulyar because I think we could not afford to lose him in case he is as good as he is expected to be.

There is no guarantee.

There is no such thing in racing that I know of as a certainty. If we let him go and the progeny of the National Stud were meeting his progeny from either Britain or America, and we were being beaten, we would realise how short-sighted and what poor business people the company and the Minister were.

Mr. Walsh

You can leave the Minister out.

I know for a certainty that the directors did not buy Tulyar without telling the Minister.

Mr. Walsh

What exactly do you mean by that?

That the Minister did say that he approved of the purchase.

Mr. Walsh

It is not my function even to be asked.

Surely they could not buy the horse without getting the O.K. from the Minister that the money would be available if they did buy it.

Mr. Walsh

The Bill was introduced and was being prepared long before Tulyar was even finished racing.

The Minister is spoiling the case.

Mr. Walsh

He is not. He wants to keep you to the truth.

Suppose Deputy MacEoin was allowed to make his case himself.

I think you should suspend the Minister and myself, because he has been very disorderly.

I am a very obliging man.

I will try not to run the danger. The Minister, in my opinion, did give the O.K. to the company that bought this horse, and the Minister, I am sure, and the officers of his Department were consulted. I think they should be. They were right to do that. They are running a grave risk, and the Minister is now trying to get out of the responsibility that he will have if this horse is a failure after three years by saying: "I have no responsibility." That is not playing fair.

He will not be worried. He will not be Minister then.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast and he hasthe expectation and it would be a stepmother that would blame him. I do not blame him for hoping for the best.

In all the circumstances the purchase should have been made and, the purchase having been made, the Money Resolution should be passed to allow the horse to be paid for. Let us hope for the best in future.

I have listened to my colleague from Wexford, Deputy Allen, trying to involve the leader of the Labour Party in the National Stud and being allowed to get away with it by the Chair. We, on this side of the House, who represent the same people, ought to be allowed to develop our case and to explain why we are objecting to the purchase of this horse. The horse may be all right but the price to the Irish people is all wrong considering the present position in the country.

We believe that the main business of the Government to-day is to provide money for the employment of the 80,000 people and more who are unemployed. We believe that a subsidy should have been given for butter to save the poor people throughout the country. What did the Minister say in his own area to an old age pensioner who only got a 1/6 increase to meet the cost of living? How will he go down to Kilkenny and meet these people who will say to him "Where did you get the money for the Aga Khan?" Why did not the Minister come into this House before this purchase was made and tell the House and the country about this purchase? The Minister must have some control over the National Stud. This House must provide the money for that company and the Government and Minister must take responsibility.

We hear all about this great horse. He ran two seasons. The English, who are a great racing people, and the French, who are richer than we are, did not even look at the horse.

Not even for steak.

It is very easy for the Minister to say that the Americans would have given more. That is the old story of the dealer. Any man whois selling a pony will say: "If I go to Jack Murphy I will get £10 more."

In speeches made since the Budget was introduced we have been told that the inter-Party Government broke the country, that they left no dollars behind them. Now Deputy Cogan tells us about all the employment that will be given by the purchase of this racehorse. In certain stables during the flat racing season a few hundred men are brought in, but when the season is over these men are unemployed. Not so long ago the Irish Transport Union made a demand on the racehorse trainers for an increase for stable boys, and it was only when strike action was threatened that they consented to meet their employees. In the daily papers last week I saw the names of a lot of people. Of these I only knew one who is a County Wexford man and is a breeder. I come from a county in which winners of the Grand National were bred. But I know small farmers in my constituency who have thoroughbred mares and who will never be able to bring them to the National Stud because the fee will be too high. It is only the man with money who will get any benefit from the purchase of this racehorse.

In my town at present there are 400 people unemployed. Over 200 road workers and quarry workers were dismissed because there was no money to pay them. At the same time, we are giving £250,000 for this horse, plus insurance and expenses. Have the Government gone mad? We were told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce about a month ago that we were to have a transatlantic air service for which pilots would be provided and that it would cost this country nothing. We did not believe that of course. Some Deputies evidently think that we are to get a present of this racehorse.

All this expenditure is taking place in a country which is overtaxed and which has a very high cost of living. The Minister for Agriculture told this House and some county committees of agriculture that he was paying the highest price for wheat. That may be true, but we are paying a higher pricefor bread and butter. As long as there are unemployed people in this country the first duty of any Government which is in office, whether it is the Coalition Government or the Fianna Fáil Government, is to provide employment and to house and clothe the people. That is their duty and they should not be gambling in racehorses. I suppose the next thing the Government will go into is the purchase of dogs, that they will be buying a stud dog.

A Deputy

They have gone to the dogs.

Yes, I think the Fianna Fáil Party has gone to the dogs. They are forgetting the plain people of the country. They should remember that it was the Labour Party and the plain people of the country that put Fianna Fáil into power for the first time. We have been listening to Deputy Briscoe, Deputy Allen and Deputy Cowan sneering. Some time ago Deputy Cowan was running around the City of Dublin saying: "Join the volunteers; march on the North." The ex-Minister for Justice wanted the Government to lock the Deputy up because he was forming an army. Last night the Deputy said the war clouds were passing. I suppose his army has been demobbed.

They were not paid.

It is strange how people can change. We will see some of the Independent Deputies walking into the Division Lobby to-night to support this. Deputy Dr. Browne, who a few years ago clamoured so much for the poor people, I suppose will walk into the Lobby to-night and vote for this expenditure of £250,000, while the people of Dublin whom he and Deputy Cowan represent will have to buy margarine in future because they are not able to buy butter. I should like to see the four Independent Deputies who are supporting the Government join the Fianna Fáil Party and not be serving under two flags as Independents.

For years Deputy Cogan has been wailing about the price of milk and the necessity for milk costings. What hashe done since? When the farmers took strike action and forced the Minister for Agriculture to meet them Deputy Cogan said very little against the Government at a time when the people of Dublin were getting powdered milk. For the first time, we had powdered milk served in Leinster House. The Government were prepared to let the people of Dublin and people in the country, who could not get fresh milk, give powdered milk to their children.

When he was Minister for Health. Deputy Dr. Browne was all out for the provision of good milk, pure milk and pasteurised, but he never raised his voice in this House in protest against the Government's action at that time. When the Government arrested farmers and put them in Mountjoy Jail, Deputy Cogan never uttered one word of protest. Now he is all-out for the National Stud. I think that the dairying industry is more important than this great horse they are talking about because the children must be provided with milk.

As Deputy O'Donnell said, the Government could not get money for a bull, but they can get it for the Aga Khan, the richest man in the world. They state that he would prefer to give the Irish people a chance of purchasing this great horse. Why not bring the horse over to the Aga Khan's stables and put him there at the disposal of the Irish farmer? Why would the Minister not give a subsidy to the small farmers so that they could take their mares to this horse? How otherwise can the small farmer or the small breeder get any advantage? He will get, as things are, no advantage but he will have to pay his rates and his taxes just the same. It is the last straw that breaks the camel's back, and this is the last straw as far as taxation here is concerned.

Not one of the men sitting behind the Minister got a mandate from the people to squander money. A few weeks ago we had the Minister for Industry and Commerce wanting £1,500,000 for C.I.E. Yesterday we had a Supplementary Estimate for the Army and the Minister said they were going to buy armaments from foreigncountries and one of those countries is England. In the years gone by we heard about the people who whacked John Bull and all the rest of it. We heard a Minister say on one occasion that he did not care if all the ships were at the bottom of the sea. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said: "Burn everything British except coal."

What a change of front now! Of course, the Government will stay there so long as they have the support of those people who were elected in their constituencies on the inter-Party vote and the Government may last for three and a half years. Mark my words. After three and a half years the members of the front benches will have pensions. The Parliamentary Secretaries will have pensions.

A Deputy

The same as the last Government.

They provided big pensions for themselves at the expense of the taxpayer. What will the ordinary T.D. do when he becomes too old or loses his seat? Where will he go? There is no pension provided for him though he gives more service to his constituents.

Now you are talking.

The ordinary T.D. does more than any Minister. He has to write letters and call to Departments. The Minister has a whole lot of civil servants to do the work for him. He gets a pension after three years. Is that not a fact? Speeches were made in my constituency by members of the present Government. I did not listen to them but I read them in the local papers. Their programme was full employment; put out the inter-Party Government; they are ruining the country. What do we find to-day? According to the official figures on the 14th February of this year there were 88,095 people unemployed. Is that a good record for a Government over 18 months in office?

The machinery purchased under Marshall Aid to reclaim the land isnow being put into the hands of contractors. In my constituency, as Deputy Allen knows, work under the Local Authorities (Works) Act has almost ceased. The men are emigrating from the rural areas every week. The Rosslare boat is full of young men and women. The Taoiseach said that it was not employment alone that was the cause of emigration; he said there were other attractions. Does the Taoiseach really mean that? He said in Galway that they were slaving, living in dirty houses and all the rest of it. Has he forgotten that he made that statement?

We know that in England to-day the food situation is very bad. The Irish people are working as navvies or in the mines. I know that from people who have come back. I know that from friends to whom we have to send a parcel of meat. Then we have the Taoiseach telling us that it is not unemployment which is causing the people to leave. They are going to England to see the attractions. I want to nail that lie now, for it is a lie. There is no attraction for the Irish worker in England. The young men, after two years, are conscripted, and no effort is made here to protect them. There are hundreds of young men to-night in Korea who were conscripted into the British Army. The Irish Government should protect the Irish workers who have to leave the country through no fault of their own, but through the fault of the Government in power. I was in England and Scotland in my time. It is a shame for an Irish Government to be boasting about this great horse, boasting about the great animal they are getting when at the same time they do nothing to stop emigration.

Housing schemes have slowed up. Work under the Local Authorities (Works) Act has slowed up. The Estimate for the Forestry Division has been cut by £250,000. Would it not be better to give this £250,000 that we are discussing here to forestry in order to keep the workers in employment? We have a National Stud. Of course, everything is national but the National Stud is run by foreigners. There is nothing national about that.

Mr. Walsh

I think we should object to that statement, because it is not run by foreigners.

The names are foreign anyhow. They are not Irish names.

The Deputy ought to confine himself to something relevant to the Resolution.

I think it is very relevant, considering we are going to give £250,000 to the National Stud, to point out that the Irish people do not control that establishment and that this House has no control over it.

If the Minister says the people controlling the National Stud are Irish, the Minister knows. That should be accepted by the Deputy.

On a point of order. Are not the directors of the National Stud appointed by the Government?

Mr. Walsh


I take it that is the reason the Minister objected.

I am glad that has come out anyhow. These people are appointed by the Government and with the sanction of the Minister although he said a short time ago that he has no control over this establishment. Where are we now? What kind of confused statements are those? At one moment the Minister has no function and now, in answer to Deputy Lehane, he says "yes". I think this House should have control over everything for which it votes money. We would be failing in our duty to the people we represent if we in the Labour Benches did not make a strong protest in this connection. Of course, Fianna Fáil is not interested in the ordinary working men because the majority of its members are drawn from amongst, doctors, solicitors and farmers. They do not care about the worker and they are playing up to the capitalist element in the community. They would like more emigration to England or Scotland so that when the next general election or the by-election in Wicklow comes along, the workers will be gone.

The Fianna Fáil Government werevery anxious to get back into power, but how they induced the four Independent Deputies to vote for them I do not know. At the time the Government was being formed I was in hospital and that morning the Irish Presswas on the Taoiseach's table. He looked at it and said to his housekeeper: “Take it away and get me four Independents.” On the front page ofDublin Opinionthis month you will see a drawing of Tulyar lying against a post and also one of John Citizen. This horse has been discussed so much in this House that he is nearly spurred to death, and when the progeny of this animal are two and three years old and are racing in the Phoenix Park or elsewhere everyone in the country will back them. It will be a good advertisement for the tipsters.

We are against this Money Resolution. The Minister should have come to the House and told us what had really taken place. I saw this whole matter published in the English papers three weeks before I heard it here, when the Aga Khan announced the sale of Tulyar. The Irish people knew nothing about it. It is only now when the Minister is looking for the money to pay for it that he approaches the House. Everyone in my constituency is shocked at the idea and at the state of affairs in which thousands are unemployed in every little town in Ireland.

In conclusion I would say that no matter what attacks have been made on us from the far side of the House by Deputy Briscoe and other Deputies it is our duty to fight against this. We represent the plain people. We are sorry to see so many of our comrades leaving the country and signing the register. It is a shame that the Fianna Fáil Government, after all they said, have money now to give to the Aga Khan as a gift.

On a point of order. Might I ask, for the benefit of members who propose to speak in this debate, that you will now give a ruling on the limits of the debate? We would like some guidance.

The Chair cannot rule on a question ofthat kind. The Chair can rule when a Deputy strays from the motion before the House.

Might I point out, with all due respect that the Chair, irrespective of who is the occupant, that all members of this House are entitled to be treated under the same Standing Orders whether they are members of my Party or any other Party? Only a short while ago Deputy Corish was put out of this House.

The Deputy cannot discuss that question. That has been disposed of.

We are entitled to guidance as to whether we are supposed to follow the limits imposed on Deputy Corish or whether we will have an opportunity to follow the lines of the speeches made by other Deputies and to enjoy the freedom accorded to them. Is there to be one Standing Order for one Deputy and another Standing Order for other Deputies?

Is Deputy Larkin trying to suggest that Deputy O'Leary should be expelled?

I am suggesting to Deputy Cogan that himself, myself and every other member of the House are entitled to the same treatment from the Chair and that has not been accorded to one of the most responsible Deputies in this House, Deputy Corish.

The Deputy is making a charge against the Chair.

I am not making a charge against the Chair. I can only comment upon what the Chair does.

Is it not common knowledge to every member of this House that in regard to certain particular Deputies it is desirable that rules would not be applied?

Such as Deputy Cowan.

Might I point out that Deputy Cowan is one of the Deputieswho on frequent occasions protests against any infringement of the rights of Deputies in this House. He should do the same for every Deputy.

The Chair accords equal rights to all Deputies.

That has not been the case to-night.

The Deputy is questioning the ruling of the Chair and he can do that in another way. He cannot do it at this juncture. I am calling on Deputy Cafferky.

I have no intention of covering the ground that has been covered by previous speakers. I appreciate that one is confined to the motion before the House and I recognise the ruling of the Chair. Now that the Government have insisted upon the purchase of this well-known racehorse, they are faced with the position that they must provide accommodation for him. It is from that point of view that I would examine this Financial Resolution.

I was not available to speak on the pros and cons of the advisability of expending £250,000 for the purchase of this racehorse. While I appreciate that the Government, perhaps, could make a reasonable case for their conduct and that the purchase of this animal may be an asset to the State, I feel I have a duty to perform, and that is to point out that at a time like this it was an ill-advised step.

The Government should have examined this whole situation more carefully and have waited for a more reasonable opportunity than now, when the country is faced with unemployment. At this juncture it is not opportune to spend £250,000 on the purchase of a horse and £250,000 for the reconstruction or renovation of the stud in Kildare. If things were normal I would have no hesitation in walking into the Lobby to support the principle involved, and I am sure most Deputies feel the same. We have a good name with regard to bloodstock. We would wish to uphold that name, and I recognise that the Department of Agriculture is anxious to uphold ourreputation for bloodstock which has been established over a period of years. I do not think, however, that failure to purchase this animal or failure to provide £250,000 for the re-organisation and reconstruction of the stud in Kildare would injure our name for the time being.

We notice that over the past few months unemployment has been increasing at the rate of 1,000 per week. That in itself should have been sufficient to deter the Government from spending money on this particular project. No matter what protests or suggestions may be made by Deputies the Government have now gone half the way and they must go the other half. There is no use purchasing this animal if reasonable accommodation is not provided for him. There is no use in throwing away £250,000 for the sake of another £250,000. I suppose they must go to the full limit, but I doubt if any Deputy, either on the Government side or this side, can in honesty justify the expenditure of this sum. Admittedly, it is only £500,000 or thereabouts, and it may seem small when we remember that in a few short hours some days ago we passed Supplementary Estimates to the tune of £10,000,000. This may seem a small sum in comparison with that total, but nevertheless, it is a sum that, if spent in certain counties in the West, would bring considerable relief.

I believe, as an ordinary Deputy from a rural constituency, that if I were Minister for Agriculture I would be unable to justify my conduct in sponsoring expenditure of this kind. Neither would I be able to justify the conduct of my Party in sponsoring a project entailing an expenditure of almost £500,000 at a time when there is so much unemployment and the cost of living has increased so substantially. Our opposition to this Resolution is not due to any desire to injure bloodstock breeders but to the feeling that the Government did not give the matter the consideration it should have received before presenting the Money Resolution to this House. I am bound to oppose the Resolution on that ground and for no other reason.

I shall be very brief. I think the best attitude to adopt in this matter is to oppose the expenditure of this money. It is good politics but I do not think it is sound common-sense. I think that those who are opposing the spending of this money are acting very inconsistently because we have heard a great deal about repatriation of assets and the fact that we have a considerable amount of money invested in England from which we are getting a very small dividend. I would prefer to get rid of some of these assets that are paying such a small dividend and to have in this country a horse such as Tulyar that will help a most important industry, the horse-breeding industry, which at the moment is worth a considerable amount to this country and which in future will be worth considerably more.

Are we going to pay for this horse out of these investments?

Yes. It is a capital investment and a capital investment must be paid for by the proceeds of the sale of some of the capital investments we already have in England which are giving very low returns in dividends. I am perfectly satisfied that it is worth while taking this chance. It is a chance, because anybody dealing with live stock in any section knows that there is always a chance involved in such dealings. As far as we know this is one of the best horses in the world. Horses that are bred in Ireland are amongst the best horses in the world and I think that having regard to the importance of the horse-breeding industry to the economy of the country, to the extent to which it has been developed, we should forget any cheap political advantages that might accrue from voting against this proposal, take our courage in our hands and as responsible people do what we believe is best in the interests of the country. Knowing that it is an unpopular thing to do and that it is a thing that will be used against every Deputy at election time, but believing it is the right thing to do, I am giving the Resolution all the support I can.

Deputy Dunne rose.

Deputy Dunne has already spoken.

The House is in Committee.

It is not usual for a Deputy to speak more than once.

The House is in Committee always on a Financial Resolution. Deputy Dunne has a perfect right to speak again.

I do not know how many Deputies——

Is it in order to speak twice on this Resolution?

Of course it is. Read the Standing Order.

It is not usual.

What is the hurry in any case to pay this £500,000?

Does the Chair hold that Deputy Dunne is entitled to speak?

Yes, Deputy Dunne is entitled to speak.

Read the Standing Order.

It is a matter for regret that the Chair does not take the same view as Deputy Cowan.

On a point of order. It is perfectly clear from what has occurred since the suspension of Deputy Corish——

This is surely not a point or order; it is a speech.

I am entitled to make my case.

It is not a point of order.

That is a matter for the Chair.

It is perfectly clearfrom what has occurred in relation to the suspension of Deputy Corish and from the efforts made by Deputy O'Leary to be suspended——

I suggest that this is not a point of order. It is a speech-dictation to the Chair by the Red Nuncio.

Perhaps the Deputy would come to the point of order.

I shall come to it if I am permitted.

At the end of your speech.

I submit that an attempt is being made to prevent this matter from being discussed.

I object. That is not a point of order. It is a speech, an attempt to get round the ruling of the Chair.

By a rowdy interruption.

We are going to shove Tulyar down the Deputy's neck whether he likes it or not.

On behalf of the horse, I protest again at that suggestion. He is a good horse and does not deserve that fate.

Deputy Dunne is in a state of suspended animation.

Deputy Dunne will now come to the Money Resolution.

I was about to remark when I was interrupted by the Deputy who is accustomed to usurp the functions of the Chair in this House on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party——

No Deputy usurps the functions of the Chair in this House.

It is a matter of one's point of view. Attempts have beenmade by Deputy Cowan on a number of occasions to usurp the functions of the Chair.

Deputy Dunne wants to be suspended. Put him out of pain quickly.

If the generalissimo would contain himself for a few moments I would refer to this Resolution. I happened to be in my constituency during the past week-end. I do not know if Deputy Cowan showed himself in his constituency, but I happened to be in mine, and met an old man who had been an agricultural labourer all his life.

I heard this before. It is the old story.

He said to me: "Is it not a shocking thing to spend £250,000 on this horse and send it out of the country, making a gift of it to the Aga Khan?" Half of it goes to the Aga Khan, of course. We understand his Royal Highness is a friend of the generalissimo. We are sending this money to the poverty-stricken family of the Khans, some of whom reside in America and have a claim on this money, as well as those who reside in France.

Have the Labour Party descended to this?

In the course of his remarks the old man said to me: "Is it not a remarkable thing that the best horse that this country ever had was produced by a dam which cost a few hundred guineas and a sire which cost at the most a couple of thousand pounds? We are sending £250,000 out of the country and taking a gamble on this horse." I asked him: "To what great horse are you referring?" He said: "Tulyar." His point was that if it was possible for the bloodstock people here to produce Tulyar at a cost of 2,000 guineas or 3,000 guineas at the outside, surely that was not the line of country that the bloodstock industry should pursue and explore in this country?

A very good case was made I think by Deputy O'Donnell in reference tothe claim that in buying this horse we were going to boost the prestige of the Irish bloodstock industry. I want to reiterate the case made by Deputy O'Donnell. If the Americans had bought the horse—and we have no guarantee that the Americans ever offered a cent for the horse—and if the horse had gone to America surely everybody interested in horse breeding and horse racing in America would be aware of the fact that it was an Irish horse? Surely that would be enough to advertise the qualities of our Irish bloodstock instead of having to run hat in hand to the Aga Khan imploring him to give us this animal for £250,000 for God's sake.

Of course, the Minister came into the House and tried to make a case as if he were dealing with a nation of morons or with people who could not understand plain English or who could not observe what people were doing. The Minister said that this money was not for the purpose of buying Tulyar but for the purpose of adding to the capital of the National Stud.

If I have the power to do so, I move that the question be put now.

If that is accepted it will just throttle free discussion in this House.

That motion can only be accepted by the Ceann Comhairle.

I ask that the Ceann Comhairle be sent for.

It is only to be expected that the Deputy should try to stamp out free discussion in this House. He should confine himself to being a court jester for the Fianna Fáil Party.

I remember the time when he was looking for a fellow in Belfast to shoot de Valera. Senator Commons was with me.

Am I entitled to put that motion to the House?

Only when the Ceann Comhairle is in the Chair.

Am I entitled to ask that the Ceann Comhairle be sent for?

The Chair is not accepting that request.

That is common sense.

That is another attempt on the part of the generalissimo to usurp the function of the Chair. He thinks because he led a backyard army that he can run Dáil Éireann. He can run some people in Dáil Éireann but he cannot run everybody.

Deputy Dunne should now address himself so the Resolution.

We will wait until the Ceann Comhairle arrives.

Our objection to the expenditure of this sum has been misrepresented in this House. Attempts to do so were made by Deputy Briscoe and other Deputies on the Government side but, perhaps, none so vicious as the efforts made by Deputy Cowan who, when he decided to swing to the right-hand side of the House cannot go far enough now to the right. Misrepresentation has been rampant in so far as our attitude is concerned. We have no objection whatsoever to the existence of the National Stud. We have no objection whatsoever to the improvement of the National Stud, but we think there is a time and place for everything. Would anybody seriously suggest that with butter at 4/2 per lb.——

This is where the Deputy is trying to get put out now.

This is what you can talk about at the Five Lamps or Fairview Corner and explain it. Since we talked about unemployment last week——

Rule him out.

——there has been an increase of 1,000 in the number of unemployed. In fact, over the last threemonths unemployment has increased by almost 1,000 per week.

Is the Deputy discussing the unemployment position or the Resolution before the House?

I am trying to relate them as was done previously when it was allowed by the Ceann Comhairle. I am standing on my right to do it, as the Ceann Comhairle permitted others to do.

The Deputy is doing it in a crude way. The Chair should rule him out of order.

Deputy Cowan should contain himself or I will have to relate some of the secret history of the high command of his army, from the ranks of which he was expelled. The Deputy enjoys the distinction of being the only generalissimo left.

Would the Deputy relate his remarks to the Resolution before the House?

I am certainly not a Marxist anyway.

I think I am entitled to relate the unemployment position to this question of expenditure on Tulyar. It has been suggested by Deputies on the far side of the House that the Labour Party is trying to put it across that this £250,000 should be divided up amongst the 90,000 unemployed, and that that is the Labour Party's policy in regard to the expenditure. Of course, it is not, but we do say that there are very many projects in this country upon which the money could be better spent. One such project—that of afforestation — was mentioned by Deputy O'Leary. It could do with an injection of £250,000. There are many Fianna Fáil Deputies who would not object to £50,000 or £100,000 being expended by county councils on road schemes in the country rather than having the money sent away for the benefit of the Aga Khan and his Royal Highness Prince Aly Khan and company. Somebody mentioned the road grants. I do not want to be drawn into irrelevancies.

On a point of order. I agree to a certain extent with what you are doing. The rules of order have been brought into absolute contempt deliberately by Deputy Dunne for the purpose of being put out. It is better that he should be put out and thus have the rules maintained. I ask that he be put out. I think that the rules of this House must be maintained at all cost.

What right has Deputy Cowan to dictate to the Chair?

It is another example of the presumption on the part of the tail-end of the Fianna Fáil Party to try to dictate the way to rule the House, a thing which the Chair is well able to do.

Deputy Norton should try to preserve the rules of the House.

The Deputy has no shame left.

Deputy Cowan has been so injected with the Fianna Fáil virus that he is now outdoing the older members of the Party, and many are staying away because they are embarrassed.

Deputy Dunne should relate his remarks to the Resolution.

As I was saying when I was rudely interrupted by Deputy Cowan, a great deal of nonsense has been talked here and a good deal of wishful thinking has been indulged in by those who seek to defend this action of the Government. We have had the Minister trying to evade responsibility by saying that this has nothing at all to do with the purchase of the racehorse, that it is simply an extension of capital for the National Stud. Then he says in another breath that this expenditure is a trustee investment. Deputy Briscoe said it was a gamble.

I said nothing of the kind. That is what you said it was.

It is in the records for anyone to read.

I said you were a gamble.

If Deputy Briscoe wants to contradict that, he can look up the records and get it expurged.

He is out of order all the time.

Now, the boss told you to get into line. You will have to be careful.

If the conversation has ceased, Deputy Dunne might continue on the Money Resolution.

There are innumerable alternative schemes for the provision of employment and the improvement of the nation which could be put forward to utilise this sum of £250,000.

It is all right, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, do not make a martyr of him.

This is beyond all question a gamble. Everyone but those interested in horse-racing or horse-breeding feels that it is an untimely and unwarranted expenditure. No matter what side-stepping may be indulged in by the Minister for Agriculture, the Government must accept responsibility for providing this £250,000. It is sad to hear a Minister say that all he has to do is to put up the money, that once he is asked by the National Stud for the money he must pay it out, that he cannot even question what it is for. Surely that makes a complete farce of parliamentary representation? If £250,000 is to be taken out of the national coffers, whether it is from foreign investments or investments at home or revenue it is coming out of the pockets of the people of Ireland. Otherwise we would not be talking about it here and we would not be asked about it. It is terrible to see the Minister trying to put it across that we have no right to discuss or question what this is to be expended on; that he is not concerned and has no right to question the expenditure of this money. Everyone knowsthe Minister must have been well informed of the progress of negotiations about the purchase of this horse.

Deputy Briscoe has asked me for proof that there was public unrest about this expenditure. He wanted to know if I had any letters or telegrams. The people in my constituency are watching their halfpennies too tightly to be sending telegrams to anyone— they cannot afford to send telegrams.

How do you know?

Anyone can travel through Ballyfermot or part of County Dublin and find it is true. How do I know? I mix among the people. I do not believe in living in a political vacuum. I mix among ordinary people.

When not engaged in journalistic activities.

I certainly am not engaged in as profitable activities as the Deputy outside the House.

The Deputy could be a wealthier man than he is.

The Deputy could. He is proceeding very well, under the protecting arm of the Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputy Dunne might now discuss the Money Resolution.

We want to protest very emphatically on this stage—and will on every stage—against this expenditure.

Bar your leader.

You are the Strasbourg specialist. You keep quiet.

You appeared there yourself.

You would be snapped up at Strasbourg. You are in danger. Mr. Trygve Lie was in danger.

The Deputy had not the courage to vote against Tulyar all the same.

In my constituency last week in the town of Balbriggan the hosiery industry was at a standstill. Atown such as that depends entirely on the hosiery industry for its existence.

The Deputy may not discuss the hosiery industry of Balbriggan on the Money Resolution.

I am referring to unemployment. It has been allowed.

The Deputy has already referred to unemployment.

Surely, with respect, the Chair is not going to suggest that unemployment has only one facet and can be dealt with by a passing phrase.

I could get out much more quickly than that.

You do not realise how quickly you will go out, when the people of Fairview get a chance at you. Tulyar will have nothing on you. All records will be broken. In this area of County Dublin, in the town of Balbriggan, the unemployment queue stretches as far as the eye can see down the main street. This has not occurred for the last 16 or 17 years.

The Chair has pointed out to the Deputy that the question of Balbriggan employment does not arise and cannot be debated on this Money Resolution.

I was mentioning this factor of unemployment in relation to the expenditure of this money. I was simply going to state that it is suggested by members of the Fianna Fáil Party here——

Give him a few lessons on how to be put out.

If the court jester has finished——

These are impudent reflections on the Chair. I do not know whether you feel bound to take notice. The suggestion is that you are permitting Deputy Dunne to break the rules of order.

TheChair is doing its very best to keep Deputy Dunne in order.

May I suggest to you, Sir, that Deputy Cowan is making unwarranted reflections on the Chair? If the Chair does not mind it, however, I do not mind it either.

This question would resolve itself if Deputy Dunne spoke to the Resolution.

With respect, I am addressing myself to the Resolution and with as much relevancy as previous speakers.

May I make this submission?

Is this a point of order?

On a point of order. Is it not quite in order for Deputy Dunne to say that it is much better to spend the £250,000 being used to buy this racehorse on the unemployed in Balbriggan, who have lost their employment in the hosiery factory? Deputy Dunne can give reasons to the House why this money should be switched to Balbriggan, instead of being given to the Aga khan.

The whole economic policy of the State cannot be debated on this Money Resolution.

He does not need to go so far at all.

Nor do I propose to. I would not infringe on the rules of the House to that extent, as has been done by other speakers. We had a lecture from Deputy Cowan on socialism when he was giving his contribution.

Badly needed by Deputy Dunne.

Inspired by the greatness of the moment at which he spoke, waves of thought were coming to him and giving him inspiration as to what was and what was not the true and ideal socialism.

James Connolly, the founder of that Party!

Do not mention that honourable man's name.

For God's sake, you be quiet. You sit there and listen to all this nonsense.

Deputy Dunne is in possession.

Such a collection of humbugs I never saw.

That is the situation I have described as it exists in the town of Balbriggan where unemployment abounds. Some of the Deputies across the House want us to believe that the unemployed man going in to sign on, wondering whether he is going to get a day's work to-morrow or next week and depending on a few shillings to keep himself and his wife right, has no strong views against this purchase. I have seen skilled hosiers in the town of Balbriggan going down to the foreshore to pick winkles to get a living.

Perhaps the Deputy would now come back to the Money Resolution.

I am saying——

The Chair is quite well aware of what the Deputy is saying. That is the reason the Chair asks the Deputy to come back to the Money Resolution.

I want to advert to certain criticisms which were made in regard to the Labour Party and myself particularly in this debate. It is suggested by the Fianna Fáil Party that these unemployed people, when they get an opportunity to see the Irish Pressand read about Tulyar, their hearts will be lifted up because we have wrapped the Green Flag successfully around Tulyar. That is the plan of attack now—when all else fails, try to shroud him in some talk of national pride. What national pride can we have in having a racehorse and 90,000 unemployed people? Is it not more important that human beings should be given a chance of life, rather than that we should purchase thisanimal at this juncture? The time will come, undoubtedly, when the country will be able to afford to purchase bloodstock of this nature but that time is not in the immediate future, because it is quite obvious that Deputy Cowan and the Fianna Fáil Party are going to hang on to office as long as they can.

That has nothing to do with the Resolution.

Until they go out of office, we will not be in the happy position of being able to purchase Tulyar or such animals.

Whom do you mean by "we"—you and all those people over there?

You were "we" at one time.

Deputy Cowan is pursuing his customary line of defence lawyer—defending the Fianna Fáil Tulyar, the Aga Khan, Prince Aly Khan and company.

This is the filthiest thing I have ever heard in a national parliament.

You are no bad judge of filth.

That remark of Deputy Cowan's is laughable. I recall an occasion when Deputy Cowan asked the Chair whether it would be in order to describe Deputy MacEntee as a sewer rat. Was that clean?

At least Deputy MacEntee was present, and I was not making references to people in America.

Surely Deputy Cowan does not think the horse should be here on the floor?

All this is irrelevant.

No, but the country is on the floor.

This is good stuff for the English newspapers. Even thecraw-thumping Deputy Blowick has something to smile at.

The Deputy is making a joke of himself for the Fianna Fáil Party, and a tail for that Party. He is not even a good joke.

Deputy Cowan is but serving his time——

There is some deficiency in the House—I do not know what it is.

I was saying that Deputy Cowan is simply serving his time before being admitted to the ranks of the glorious Fianna Fáil Party.

The House is not discussing Deputy Cowan. Deputy Dunne must relate his remarks to the Money Resolution.

What a price the Deputy has paid in lowering himself to the level to which he has lowered himself. I asked some questions on Second Reading of the Minister and unfortunately I got no reply. I should like to know if I am going to get the answers now, because they are questions which many people in the country are asking, particularly in regard to the insurance of this horse. What is all the secrecy about the insurance of this horse? Is this horse going to be insured or not?

Of course, it is.

If it is going to be insured, will it be insured by the State, through some machinery of the State, by an Irish insurance company, or a cross-Channel or foreign insurance company? If it is going to be insured, what is to be the amount of the premium? We have not been told that. It has been variously estimated by those who are supposed to know that it will run to £8,000 or £9,000 a year, provided he lives. In spite of efforts to prove the contrary, we had an admission that the Aga Khan has certain rights in regard to nominations, that he must get certain nominations in respect of this horse. We have had some people suggesting that the ordinary farmer is going to benefit by this measure.

The Deputy is now making a Second Reading speech on the Money Resolution, which is not relevant.

I am simply trying to get information on behalf of the people which I sought on Second Reading and which was refused to me by the Minister. Surely I am entitled to ask these questions and to press for a reply?

They are not relevant on the Money Resolution. They can be raised on the Bill.

I will take the opportunity of raising them on the Bill, but I want to remind the Minister, in case he has forgotten, that he might let us know these facts. Irrespective of what propaganda the Government Party may seek to throw out—and they are going to have an awful job at the chapel gates with this particular effort, a very difficult and stiff job in trying to justify this piece of handiwork on the part of the Minister for Agriculture——

Do you not welcome it?

I pity them, God help them.

Deputy Cowan should not interrupt. Deputy Dunne is in possession.

I hate to see people in difficulties, and I have the greatest pity of all for Deputy Cowan, because he is walking fast down the road of political disaster every time he opens his mouth.

I would rather go my own road than the way the Deputy is going.

How can the Government hope to justify this act of theirs before the country? It cannot be done in present circumstances. Every day that goes by we are moving into a more difficult period. The indications are that the Minister for Finance is about to impose still further restrictionson the people in the coming Budget: he has already given us a few hints about that. The Taoiseach himself has indicated that——

The coming Budget is not relevant to the Money Resolution which is before the House.

It is very relevant to the Irish people—as if they were not sufficiently scourged already by the Fianna Fáil Party with the help of Deputy Cowan, Deputy Cogan and——

I beg to move that the question be now put. If the Chair is of opinion that the matter has been sufficiently debated—and apparently it has when a Deputy is speaking for the second time——

He has repeated his remarks about a dozen times.

I ask the Chair to accept the motion—especially as three Deputies have deliberately refused to obey the Chair.

On a point of order. When has a private Deputy assumed the duties of Government?

The Deputy was within his rights in asking that the motion be now put.

According to the Standing Orders, it is the Government that may move that the motion be now put. A Minister may do so.

Another one for the "Nuncio".

Now that that matter has been settled for the third time, I will come to the Money Resolution.

I moved a motion.

Is this a point of order? There has been no mention of a point of order.

I moved that the question be now put.

Is this on a point of order? I want to know that before I will give way.

Then the Deputy might have said so.

It is one of the few genuine points of order that I have known to be made.

That you have made yourself.

I moved a motion. I understand that, under Standing Orders, if the Chair is of opinion that a motion has been sufficiently debated the Chair may or may not accept it. I am moving the motion. I am asking the Chair whether the motion will be accepted.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle cannot accept such a motion. That motion can be accepted only by the Ceann Comhairle. If the Government desire the motion to be put, it is a matter for the Minister.

If I move the motion, may I request that the Ceann Comhairle be sent for?

I am entitled to ask this question.

Would it be in order for the Chair simply to abdicate and to let Deputy Cowan sit there instead?

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle cannot accept the motion.

Is is not a fact that it may be put by a Deputy if the Ceann Comhairle is in the Chair? Is that not so?

A Deputy


Providea that the rights of a minority are not infringed upon.

And provided that the Ceann Comhairle accepts it.

Very good.

In the course of this debate allegations were made that the attitude of certain members of the Labour Party to the purchase of Tulyar was because of some external influence. It was even suggested that speeches were written for members of the Labour Party. I know for a fact that in Deputy Cowan's coterieit is the practice of a certain individual to write vitriolic speeches for another person to deliver. That does not apply to members of the Labour Party.

That remark by Deputy Dunne is a disgrace.

Deputy Dunne should address his remarks to the Money Resolution.

I do not think that anybody can accuse a member of the Labour Party——

The resemblance to any other is purely a coincidence.

I do not know what Deputy Briscoe said.

Deputy Briscoe said that any resemblance to a Labour Party is entirely a coincidence.

There is a joke for you —to hear Deputy Briscoe talk about the Labour Party.

I was talking about the resemblance.

Do not make the people of Dublin laugh. These malicious, spiteful and dirty innuendoes are worthy of the source from which they come. Members of the Labour Party are quite well able to make their own speeches, to formulate their own opinions and to present them in an orderly fashion in this House. That is what they have always done.

That is not relevant to the Money Resolution. The Deputy should try to speak to the Money Resolution.

The remarks to which Irefer were permitted in the course of the debate on this Resolution.

They were not permitted in the course of the debate on the Money Resolution.

They were permitted to-day in the course of the debate on the Money Resolution. I want categorically to nail them for what they are— a bunch of lies. A drowning man will inevitably clutch at a straw. That is what we see happening now—and happening to the Independents, in particular. Whatever chance there is for the ordinary able seamen to carry on, there is no chance at all for the stowaways. They have no hope for the future. Therefore, they clutch at any straw at all that floats past them. This is one of the straws and this is one of the alleged reasons given by Deputy Cowan why the Labour Party are opposing this Bill. He said that there were British influences. Is it not well known——

The Deputy is straying far from the Money Resolution.

I want to make this point in connection with the Money Resolution. Is it not well known that many of the major figures in the bloodstock industry in this country are nonnational? I have no criticism to make of them on that score: it is nothing to their discredit. If they are engaged in that industry and helping it and promoting it, that is all to the good. Surely, however, it is completely dishonest and completely false for any Deputy to come in here and try to impute to members of the Labour Party a motive of that nature? Deputy Cowan has seen fit to refer, even on this debate, to the revered name of the late James Connolly. James Connolly would turn in his grave if he could hear Deputy Cowan mention his name.

The Deputy must come to the Money Resolution.

I think I have made my remarks particularly relevant to the Money Resolution, in spite of the determinedefforts by the generalissimo to have me ejected from the House. I think I have been successful in relating my remarks to this Money Resolution.

In conclusion, I want to say that no matter how the purchase of Tulyar may be white-washed in this House— and people are likely to get an entirely wrong slant on the matter if they stay too long within the confines of this House—there is a very cold drizzle of public opinion outside that will wash off that white-wash and reveal Tulyar for what he is—a good horse, maybe, but an untimely purchase for this State. Do not forget that the unemployed are increasing in numbers at the rate of 1,000 per week.

Might I ask the Minister to give this House an assurance, in the course of his reply, that the rumour which is afloat from very reliable sources—and those sources are very closely connected with the directors of the National Stud—is without foundation? It is to the effect that this purchase of Tulyar is only the first of three purchases—that in the course of the next few months a further animal will be purchased for the sum of £175,000, and that a third animal will be purchased for a sum of £183,000 within the next six months. According to rumour, the orders for those animals are already placed with the responsible British sales authorities. That would seem to indicate that the £250,000 which the House is now asked to vote for the purchase of this particular animal is merely the first of three sums of money to be paid for three animals, in all, and that an additional sum of £358,000 will have to be provided within the next six months.

The Deputy cannot discuss any future sales. He must keep to the Money Resolution.

In view of the widespread criticism there has been in connection with the purchase of this animal out of public moneys, I think it is only right that the Minister should get an undertaking from the National Stud authorities that this will be their last expensive purchase. The Minister is seeking approval for this purchase andis now driving this Bill through the House. Can we have an assurance from him that, if a majority in the House give approval to it, it will be the last one to be made and that we will be finished once and for all with this wilful waste? I know from reliable information, and I venture to say the Minister is also aware of the fact, that this is only one of three animals which the National Stud authorities intend to purchase.

The Deputy should come to the Money Resolution. It is the only thing before the House.

The House is being asked to vote £250,000. I say the Minister should be in a position to give details of every penny which the House votes to the National Stud authorities, and tell us how this money is to be spent. A Deputy asked for information last week, by way of parliamentary question, with regard to the insurance of this animal. He asked whether it was a fact that the animal had been insured only for £10,000. Can the Minister give us some information about that now? Can he tell us what is the amount of the insurance premium, and if it is a fact that the animal has been insured with a British insurance company and not an Irish insurance company? We ought to have that information since we are going to spend £250,000 on what Deputy Briscoe has described as a gamble.

That is not correct. I quoted that expression which was used by another Deputy.

The Deputy when speaking in the House on the 25th February last at column 1626 said: "The purchase of every horse is a gamble."

And so it is.

The Deputy also said that the purchase of this horse was a gamble.

No. I was repeating what another Deputy has said.

The Deputy went on to say that everything connected with horse breeding was a gamble.

Is that not true?

What the Deputy says is in black and white on the records. I think it is sufficiently clear to enable me to arrive at the safe conclusion that Deputy Briscoe is one of the Deputies who describe this purchase as a gamble.

I have already told the Deputy that I was then repeating what was said by another Deputy.

When a gamble is embarked on in this way I think it is only right that steps should be taken to protect the taxpayer against losses on the gamble. There should be, for example, sufficient insurance cover. I know that if I were supporting the Fianna Fáil Government I would insist on proper safeguards for the taxpayer. Can we be told if this animal is being insured for £10,000. That information has been given out by those who are closely connected with the National Stud. Is the animal being insured with an Irish insurance company or a British company? I am told it is a British company. That is a matter which Deputy Cowan should be gravely concerned about, seeing that he is so interested in Irish companies and in Irish concerns getting business, and concerned, too, in the development of our live stock.

I do not think that horses such as this one are insured at all.

The Minister, I think, should tell the House what steps are being taken to safeguard the taxpayer from losses in connection with this purchase. We should also have more information from the Minister as to the manner in which the National Stud spends the money voted to it by this House.

We have not yet heard from the Minister what improvements are to be carried out by the National Stud, apart from the purchase of this horse, with the money they are to get.

The Deputy is making a Second Reading speech and that is not permitted on a Money Resolution.

When speaking earlier, I did not refer to the development or reconstruction work that is likely to take place at the premises of the National Stud. We have been told that the National Stud has £50,000 on hands. In view of that, why should they have asked for more than £200,000 in connection with the purchase of this horse? Is the Minister satisfied that the National Stud authorities are warranted in carrying out improvements at the present time especially in view of the fact that there has been a cutting down on the building of houses and the carrying out of public works. Surely, this is no time for the National Stud to undertake reconstruction work. Can the Minister tell us what is the nature of the work that they propose to carry out? Is it proposed to have hot and cold water running through the stalls and to provide Odearest mattresses for the horses instead of a straw bed?

If the Deputy is not going to speak to the Resolution, then I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

I submit, Sir, that I am querying the Minister as to how this money will be spent.

That may not be done on the Money Resolution in the detail into which the Deputy is going.

When the House is voting such a large sum of money as this, for the purchase of this horse, we should have the details of what other funds will be spent on the improvement of the National Stud. Is it proposed to carry out new building work on the stud premises and, if so, how much is it proposed to spend on that?

Mr. Walsh

For the information of the Deputy, the Minister has no function in the expenditure of the money.

May I take it thatthe Minister will hand over £250,000 to a group of people without knowing what they want the £250,000 for?

Mr. Walsh


May I take it that the taxpayers' money of no less a sum than £250,000 will be handed over, that the Minister will blindly hand over the taxpayers' money without knowing how it will be spent, when it will be spent and what the reasons and causes for the expenditure are?

Mr. Walsh

That is true.

Mr. O'Higgins

Then you should not be looking for the money.

Mr. Walsh

We are increasing the capital of the company and the directors will spend it.

How does the Minister know that they have purchased the horse at all?

Mr. Walsh

I could not tell you more than I have said already.

Mr. O'Higgins

Are you sure it was not a greyhound?

Mr. Walsh

What are you talking about? You are making all the talk about it. I am not.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is more of the gamble.

We now have reached the stage we do not know whether the Government have purchased Tulyar, a racehorse, or whether they have purchased a giraffe. We do not know which.

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy can rest assured that the Government did not purchase anything.

How do we know that the Aga Khan is not sending the worst old dud that could be found on any British racecourse? What proof have we that this is Tulyar? What proof have we that this is the extraordinary animal that is praised so much? Who is going to identify the animal on its arrival? What proof have we that this is the particular animal that is costing £250,000? TheMinister has admitted to the House that he does not know whether it is a greyhound or a racehorse that this £250,000 will be paid for. Surely the Minister must satisfy himself before he hands over this £250,000 to these individuals that it will be well spent and wisely spent?

The information which the Minister has now given the House makes the position shadier and gives more cause for suspicion than there was before the Minister spoke. I wonder do the Deputies who spoke here in favour of Tulyar and in favour of the purchase of such a wonderful animal now know that the responsible Government Minister has admitted in this House that he does not know whether it is Tulyar they will purchase at all or not. It is only right and wise that there should be through investigation of this extraordinary expenditure.

You are stirring up a mare's nest anyway.

I have addressed a simple question to the Minister and the Minister, in the course of his reply, has bluntly admitted that he does not know.

Mr. Walsh

For goodness' sake will you keep to the point?

Mr. O'Higgins

You let the horse out of the bag.

I want to know what machinery there is at the disposal of the National Stud directors or of the Department of Agriculture to identify this horse on its arrival. How do we know that this is Tulyar?

The Deputy has said that on several occasions. He should not repeat himself.

I bow to your ruling, Sir, but at the same time the Minister's statement that he knows nothing whatever about the purchase, and he cares less about the purchase, is extraordinary.

The Deputy has already said that.

He is asking this House to vote £250,000 for the purchase of an animal and he does not know whether they are going to purchase it or whether it is a horse or a greyhound he is buying.

The Deputy has already said that.

It is an extraordinary state of affairs. In view of the disclosures by the Minister in the past five minutes, is Deputy Cowan still satisfied that this is a wise transaction?

Mr. Walsh

Is the Deputy bereft of his senses?

We were told this was a sound investment. We were told that the purchase of this wonderful animal would be likely to bring great benefits in the future. We were told that the bloodstock industry would develop and even become world famous as a result of the purchase of this particular animal. I have asked the Minister a simple question: what machinery has he in the Department or what machinery is available at the National Stud to prove that he is not the victim——

Mr. Walsh

The Minister has no function in the purchase of the horse. It is the directors of the National Stud who have that function.

You are asking this House to pay for the horse.

Mr. Walsh

I am asking this House to provide the money to increase the capital of the stud.

In other words, the Minister is buying a pig in a bag.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister buys nothing.

The Minister is not going to buy the horse?

Mr. Walsh

The Minister is not buying the horse. The National Stud are buying a horse, and I understand they have already bought it.

The Minister tellsus the National Stud are buying a horse and have already bought it. Is he satisfied it is Tulyar they have bought?

The Deputy has asked that question on at least six occasions.

I have got no answer from the Minister. I consider, with all respect, it is a very important question. The Minister stated that the National Stud have bought a horse for £250,000. I have asked the Minister is he satisfied that this is Tulyar that the National Stud directors have purchased.

I have asked the Deputy to cease putting that question. He has put it six times.

There may be some justification for it.

Are we satisfied that this is Deputy Flanagan?

If you are satisfied, Sir, that I should not put that question, I bow to your ruling.

The Deputy should not put it on six occasions. I have no objection to the Deputy putting it once.

Surely the Chair must consider it rude of the Minister not to say yes or no to that question?

Mr. Walsh

This is typical of Oliver Flanagan.

The man of manners.

I am inclined to view this transaction with even more suspicion than the Labour Party have viewed it and they certainly viewed it with grave suspicion. I am now satisfied that this House is blindly voting £250,000 for something in respect of which the Minister has said that he knows nothing.

More than half the Fine Gael Party have supported it.

I am sure you will agree that on every occasion that a Minister presents a Money Resolution to the House he is satisfied that the money will be devoted to the services outlined by the Minister or his Department.

Mr. Walsh

I am certain of that.

Here we have a Minister who tells us that the £250,000 that he is seeking is for payment for an animal that has been purchased. He has told the House that he does not know the type of animal; he does not know the nature of the animal; he does not, I suppose, even know the sex of the animal. He has not given us any guarantee. He has bluntly told us that he is buying a pig in a bag.

I ask Deputy Flanagan to resume his seat. He has continued to ignore and pay no regard to the ruling of the Chair.

I bow to your ruling and accept it, but I think this House should demand a clearer explanation from the Minister than he has given.

I believe that there is every justification for the long discussion which has taken place on this Resolution because I feel sure that since the foundation of this State there was never such an outrageous proposal put before the House as the one which the Minister for Agriculture has now put before us to pay £250,000 to subsidise the wealthy section of the community, the section which Deputy Dunne very rightly described as anti-Irish in every sense of the word. Those people are neither Irish in name nor in origin.

The Minister has asked us to vote £250,000 for the development of the National Stud and I think Deputies are entitled to offer suggestions and opinions as to how that money could be much more gainfully employed for the benefit of the Irish people and not for the benefit of foreigners who have been coming in here over the years.

I come from a rural constituency from which the people are going to England day after day. Only last Sunday I saw eight small farmers' houses closed up as the occupants had gone over to England to try to earn a living which has been denied to them by the Irish Government. Could not the money be more gainfully employed in helping such people? I believe and the people of the country believe that it could be. Time and time again I have drawn the attention of this House to the plight of many small farmers particularly on the southern and western seaboards. Many of these have to contend with uneconomic holdings and find it very difficult to eke out an existence.

Has the Deputy anything to say on the Money Resolution?

Is the Deputy not endeavouring to show that it would be better to spend £250,000 in keeping the people in the rural areas than for the purchase of a racehorse? Some people may not like that, but I submit that the Deputy is within his rights in doing so.

The Chair submits that the Deputy is not.

Somebody has to defend the rights of Deputies and this Party will do it if the Chair does not do it.

This Bill does not specify anything about Tulyar. The Minister is asking the House to vote £250,000 to subsidise the bloodstock industry. There is no mention of Tulyar in the Bill.

We have no other proposals before us for discussion.

Are we not entitled to offer suggestions by which the money could be more gainfully employed? There are alternative methods. Why pick out the wealthy section of the community and hand them over £250,000? The Labour Party and other Deputies are entitled tooffer suggestions as to how that money could be more gainfully employed. I could keep offering suggestions until 9 o'clock to-morrow morning.

The Chair does not rule out Deputies for offering suggestions but only when they go into detail.

I will not go into detail. On a number of occasions I put before the Minister for Agriculture the plight of these small farmers and the Minister had no suggestion to make. He had no money in the kitty and he did not extract any money from the taxpayers to help to subsidise that section of the community. That is one way in which this money could be more gainfully employed. In view of the ruling of the Chair, I will not go into the matter in any more detail. There are, however, a number of other matters. We will take another industry which, owing to the policy of the Minister, is rapidly dying out—the poultry industry. We heard a lot from Deputies on the other side as to how Deputy Dillon was killing that industry, but he was only trotting after this Government judging by the way they are wiping out that industry.

The Deputy might come back to the Money Resolution.

Deputy Dillon agreed to the voting of this money.

I am not responsible for Deputy Dillon's views or the views of any other Deputy. I am only responsible for my own views. The poultry industry is a very important industry in many parts of the country.

And must not be discussed on this Money Resolution.

It gives gainful employment to many of our women folk.

It has no connection whatever with the Money Resolution before the House.

You said you would allow Deputies to offer suggestions as to how this money could be more gainfully employed, but debarred them from going into detail, and I am acting on your instructions. In order to give an outline without going into detail, of how the money could be more gainfully employed, I am pointing out a few things which come under the Minister's Department. If they did not, I would not mention them. The Minister is asking the House for £250,000 to subsidise a few titled gentlemen. At least one of those associated with the racing industry is a baron. I do not want to mention the names of people, but there is one thing about Baron X—he is not Irish. I think the same thing can be said about some of those other gentlemen.

Mr. Walsh

I object to this reference to the directors of the National Stud.

They are no more important than the eight people in Glengariff who had to lock up their homes and go to England during the last six or seven months. I am sure that it was not from an Irish Government this baron got his title.

The Deputy should get away from that subject.

At the best, this proposal can only be described as a gamble. I come from a constituency where there are many people finding it difficult to live at present. We have a huge number of unemployed. We have a number of people who, through circumstances beyond their control, are forced to go to the labour exchanges.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

I have not mentioned the unemployed before. They are forced, through circumstances beyond their control, to degrade themselves by seeking charity to help them to exist. The people of this countrydo not usually look for charity. They are more apt to demand justice and that whatever Government is in power should act fairly and squarely towards them and give them an opportunity to earn a living and not ask them to make beggars of themselves by looking for a few shillings in order to exist. That is the attitude of the people of West Cork or any other part of the country.

Would not this £250,000 for the purchase of Tulyar and to subsidise a section of the community residing in or around Dublin be more usefully employed in providing some productive employment for all these people who are forced to draw public assistance at the present time? That is one way in which this money could be more gainfully employed. I think this is an outrageous proposal, and if we were to speak on it for the next three days I think we would not have completed what we would have to say about such a purchase.

There has been a good deal of sneering at Deputies who have opposed this measure. We have had a good deal of sneering on the part of people who have not contributed in any other way to the debate. I would not mind a Deputy sneering if he had made a case for the purchase of Tulyar, but it is entirely out of place for Deputies who have offered no contribution to be interrupting and passing adverse comments. We have been called anti-national because we oppose this proposal to expend a sum of £250,000 on subsidising the bloodstock industry. Those who opposed the motion introduced here by Deputy Dunne to provide money out of public funds in order to give employment to our people were not described as anti-national. There was no sneering when that motion was opposed by the present Government.

There is sneering now because we object to subsidising the people engaged in the bloodstock industry, people I feel sure who are closely os-sociated with the Minister and with his pal, Deputy Briscoe. However, we are able to take the sneering. We do not mind it.

Has any Government a right to gamble with the people's money? We have been told time and time again that it is necessary and obligatory for the Irish people to tighten their belts. that they are living beyond their means and that unless they are more careful the nation will be faced with disaster. In the midst of all the gloom and facing the threat of disaster we find the Minister for Agriculture coming in here not with a message of hope, not with a proposal to help the poor small farmer, not with a proposal to help the unemployed but with a proposal to subsidise the most anti-national section of our people.

The horse breeders. They will be glad to hear that in Cork. They will be glad to get a hold of you in Cork.

Tulyar is a wonder horse and I hope that he will be a marked success but I hold that not one single person that I represent will derive any benefit from Tulyar's success. But the people I represent will have to contribute their share towards the purchase of this horse and towards the enormous incidental expenses connected with his purchase. It is all very fine for Deputies like Deputy Briscoe to support this measure and it is all very fine for those amongst us who can attend the Curragh and Punchestown.

I do not go. Your leader goes to Punchestown.

I suppose Deputy Briscoe cannot be everywhere.

I do not go to race meetings. The Deputy does when it is Punchestown.

It is all very well for Deputy Briscoe and his colleagues to come in here and ask us to remain silent while they extract a further £250,000 from the people withall the other extractions that have taken place during the last 18 months.

I am not asking the Deputy to keep silence. I am asking him to talk sense.

If Tulyar continues to be a wonder horse he may benefit Deputy Briscoe but he will not benefit any of the people whom I represent. I am quite within my rights in objecting in the most forcible manner to the expenditure of this money for this purpose. Such a measure could only be conceived by people who have no practical knowledge of the needs and requirements of our citizens at the present time. I am sure there will be an outcry in the City of Dublin because of the increased price of butter. I will not discuss the merits or demerits of that increase because I contend that every section of the community is entitled to its fair share of the national loaf. However, as a result of the recent increase, families in Dublin will have to do without butter on their bread. Many of them in Deputy Briscoe's constituency will have to do without it.

Would it not be better to devote this money to subsidising agriculture and subsidising the dairying industry. Since 1931 the number of milch cows has decreased by 50,000. The reason why the number has depreciated to such an extent is because dairying is no longer an economic proposition. Something could be said in favour of devoting this money to subsidising the dairying industry or helping the store cattle trade about which the Minister professes himself to be so mindful when he is down in Cork. When he is up here we hear nothing about helping the dairying industry, only helping the Aga Khan. We outbid every other country for this horse. The Government has described our financial position as being unsound. But when this horse comes on the market we are able to outbid every other country. Her Majesty, who is also interested in racing, could not compete with us. She could not afford to give £250,000 for this horse. She has more sense. The English racing interests could not compete with us.

What about Eisenhower?

He is only trotting after us.

This whole procedure here this evening is nothing but deliberate obstruction. It is a waste of time of the Dáil and a waste of the taxpayers' money.

I object to the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach. I represent my constituents here and I am quite entitled to air my views on any proposal that comes before the House.

I promise to use my influence to get the Deputy a jaunt on Tulyar once in a while.

I thought the Parliamentary Secretary was protesting against too much levity in the House.

Deputy O'Hara reminded me of a point I want to make in connection with America. The opposition to the Irish taxpayer in regard to the purchase of Tulyar was alleged to come from America. It was suggested that the Irish taxpayer might have had to pay £80,000 more because some racing interests in America were prepared to pay £330,000 for Tulyar. The Minister thought we were going to clap him on the back and say: "Good boy, Tom. You have saved the Irish taxpayers £80,000." I agree with the suggestion put forward by some previous speakers that that was a bogus bid. It was a bid which was alleged to be made in order to inflate the price of the horse and to spur on our Irish National Stud, with the taxpayers' money in their pocket, to outbid this alleged competition.

We have no evidence that there was anyone in America willing to pay £80,000 more for the horse, but we have sufficient evidence that the Aga Khan is a man of sense. If he received an offer of £80,000 more from racing interests in America he would not sell for £250,000. The Minister is smilingbut if he went to Castlecomer Fair with a couple of calves and if he was offered £30 by one buyer and £35 by another buyer, would it be a generous gesture on his part to say to the man who offered £35: "I do not want your money. I want to sell them to the man who offered £30"? I am sure he would not do that. It is not the practice and the Aga Khan, Prince Aly Khan and Rita Hayworth, as well, would certainly take the same line.

I feel sure the Aga Khan did not say to the Minister's representatives: "Although I am bid £330,000 for the horse, I will sell him to you for £250,000." On these facts we can assume that this was a bogus bid. If that is correct we can assume that a grave injustice has been done to the Irish people. With regard to the value of the horse, this horse was owned by the wealthiest man in the world, the Aga Khan. He is reputed to be so wealthy that he cannot possibly say what his actual income is.

This seems to be very far removed from the Money Resolution.

We are making the case that this money was unjustifiably expended on the purchase of the horse.

The extent of the wealth of the vendor of the horse does not seem to arise.

I am trying to relate it to the Resolution.

I am interested in hearing it related.

The Aga Khan is weighed yearly on the scales as against gold.

Will the Deputy please resume his seat. There is no use in reducing this debate to the level of a farce and endeavouring to destroy the decorum of the Dáil in this fashion. The Deputy ought to preserve it to some extent.

I am notendeavouring to destroy the decorum of the Dáil. I am endeavouring to preserve decorum and the dignity of the House.

The wealth of the vendor has nothing whatever to do with this Money Resolution.

We are discussing the Money Resolution.

We are discussing anything but the Money Resolution.

We are entitled to say whether we got value for our money or not. I do not think we did. The vendor of the horse is a very wealthy man, and we all know he is prominently associated with racing in the world. He is the principal racehorse owner in the world, and he is a man to whom a sum of £250,000 does not seem to be a large amount. If Tulyar is all that he is claimed to be, why did the Aga Khan sell him to us? He has plenty of stables and plenty of money to maintain him. Why did he not keep the horse himself?

When you examine this question minutely you are forced to the conclusion that the Aga Khan could have kept the horse himself if he thought the horse was worth keeping, but when the Minister and his representatives were prepared to pay £250,000, so much the better.

Deputy Briscoe finds great amusement in this. It is nearly impossible for me to keep from smiling at him. I do not want to delay the House any longer. This is no laughing matter. When I return to my constituency to-morrow night and meet the people in Skibbereen and Dunmanway, and when they are discussing the payment of £250,000 for Tulyar, there will be nothing to sneer at. They will be asking what efforts I made to have this £250,000 devoted to providing employment for them or to subsidise something in which they are interested. They will ask what efforts we made to prevent this sum of money from going to subsidise the racing chiefs of the country.

There is nothing to sneer at in regard to this £250,000 nor in regard to the £450,000 that we passed on to the air services a short time ago. If there was a referendum addressed to the people on this matter, I am convinced that not one in 20 of our people would favour the purchase of this horse. Not one in 20 would favour the extortion of £250,000 either through direct taxation or through hidden taxation such as was imposed by increasing the tax on drink, tobacco and other commodities which the humbler sections of the people use. If there was a referendum on this measure, the Irish people would outvote its supporters by 20 to one.

I hope some stroke of luck will come our way that will prevent us from having to pay that £250,000 for Tulyar. However, if we buy him I hope he will be a huge success.

Assuming that this Money Resolution will be carried through, this money will be made available to the National Stud. I want to put to the Minister a few questions. Considering that the taxpayers' money will be made available for this purpose, I would like to know if the Minister would have at least some discretion. Will he be consulted in some way in regard to the management of this Stud, particularly in relation to Tulyar? I understand that the services of this the Minister and his representatives animal will be confined to a very limited number of pedigree mares. Possibly it will be decided that a mare must have three or four generations of good breeding stock in order to qualify for service. I would be in favour of having the services of this animal made available to the greatest possible number of mares. If it is decided that a mare must have four generations of thoroughbred breeding, I would be in favour of reducing the qualifying number to two or three generations so that a greater number of owners would benefit from the expenditure of this public money. I think it is up to the Minister to ensure that the money will be utilised to the greatest advantage. The Minister has indicated that after he hands over the money he will not be able to dictate policy to the directors of the stud and that it will be amatter for them to operate the stud in their own way. I feel that, as this is taxpayers' money, the Minister should at least have some strings tied to it and should be consulted to some degree, regarding the utilisation of this money.

I should like also to have an assurance from the Minister that the operations of the National Stud resulting from this increase in capital will not be detrimental to small breeders in this country. Small breeders are the backbone of the horse breeding industry and I believe there is a certain element of fear amongst them in regard to the future. I should like the Minister in replying to indicate whether he has given some consideration to this matter and what the result of that consideration has been. I feel myself that it is not very good business for this House to vote away taxpayers' money without having some strings attached to it, even if it were only to insist on having a report of the operations of the National Stud laid on the table.

You get a balance sheet every year.

If Deputy O'Brien——

Ó Briain is my name.

The Parliamentary Secretary.

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary should interrupt in this fashion if we want to get the business of the House done. When the Minister is replying, I should like to have from him some indication of the general policy of the National Stud. It is said that it is in the national interest to make this money available but I think it is only right that the Department of Agriculture and the Minister should be consulted in regard to the operations of the National Stud. I gather from what has been said already that, after this money has been made available, the National Stud will not have to consult the Minister and will have no obligation to thosewho will subscribe that money. I believe that an assurance should be given to small breeders that the operations of this stud will not be to the detriment of the horse breeding industry in general. I have heard that fear expressed and if there are any grounds for it I am sure the matter has been referred to the Minister. I should like him to indicate when he is replying what the position is in relation to small breeders.

This Resolution proposes to provide additional money for the management of the National Stud. Most Deputies here have assumed, notwithstanding the Minister's statement that he had no particular function or control over the National Stud management, that this money is needed for the purchase of Tulyar. I wonder is that assumption correct? The £250,000 will probably be used to promote the interests of bloodstock breeding in the country but, so far as I know, there is nothing to suggest that the management of the stud could not use the money for any purpose that they in their wisdom may think fit.

Notice taken that20Deputies were not present; House counted and20Deputies being present,

I saw in the Cork Examinersome day during the past week an item of news to the effect that two tigers had been brought across from Britain. For all I know the money which is being provided by this Resolution could be used by the people in charge of the National Stud in connection with that purchase.

That would be a great cross between a tiger and a horse, would it not?

I am sure it would.

Or cross it with one of Deputy MacEntee's white elephants.

The money could be used for the purchase of two tigers by the directors of the National Stud.

If permitted.

Quite right.

Deputy Briscoe should allow Deputy Kyne to proceed without interruption.

Even to talk nonsense.

Deputy Kyne is in possession and should be allowed to speak without interruption.

It is necessary that Labour Deputies, because of a certainamount of vilification that has gone on in the course of the debate, should repeatedly stand up here to-night to explain our point of view. I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.30 p.m. until Friday, 6th March, at 10.30 a.m.