Committee on Finance. - Military Service Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 1952—Committee and Final Stages. – Dáil Éireann (14th Dáil) – Friday, 6 Mar 1953

Committee on Finance. - Military Service Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 1952—Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 not moved.

Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 5:—

Before Section 5 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The reference to discharge contained in sub-section (1) of Section 4 of the Act of 1924 and the same reference contained in sub-section (3) of that section shall each be construed as not including a reference to discharge for the purpose of being appointed to commissioned rank.

(2) Where a person was, before the passing of this Act, granted under Section 4 of the Act of 1924 a pension under that Act commencing as from the day of his discharge for the purpose of being appointed to commissioned rank, the pension shall stand revoked as from the day from which it became payable.

(3) Where—

(a) a pension granted under Section 4 of the Act of 1924 to a person stands revoked by virtueof sub-section (2) of this section, and

(b) such person is granted after the passing of this Act under Section 4 of the Act of 1924 a new pension under that Act commencing as from a day before the passing of this Act,

the following provisions shall have effect:—

(i) if the aggregate of the payments made in respect of the revoked pension exceeds the aggregate of the arrears of the new pension, the arrears shall not be paid and the excess shall be recovered by non-payment of the new pension to an extent equivalent to the excess,

(ii) if the aggregate of the payments made in respect of the revoked pension equals the aggregate of the arrears of the new pension, the arrears shall not be paid,

(iii) if the aggregate of the payments made in respect of the revoked pension is less than the aggregate of the arrears of the new pension, so much only of the arrears shall be paid as is equal to the amount by which the aggregate of the payments made in respect of the revoked pension is less than the aggregate of the arrears of the new pension.

This amendment arises from certain cases, referred to by Deputy Cowan in the course of the Second Reading debate, in which non-commissioned officers were notionally discharged, without any break in service, for the purpose of being appointed to commissioned rank. On a legal interpretation, they were held to be entitled to military service pensions based on their non-commissioned ranks and were paid such pensions on that basis while serving as officers. They have all now retired but continue to receive their pensions at the non-commissioned rate. I am satisfied that it can never have been the intention that a notional discharge of the nature I have mentionedshould be covered by Section 4 of the Act of 1924, and by this amendment I propose that the persons concerned should have their previous awards revoked and be awarded fresh pensions, commencing in each case from the date of retirement as an officer and based on the commissioned rank held on retirement. The amendment provides for the necessary financial adjustments as between the two pensions. In effect, the amounts paid on foot of the revoked pensions, including the amounts paid during service as officers, will be recovered to such extent as they are not met by the arrears of the new increased pensions based on commissioned rank.

Mr. S. Collins

That is to meet the case raised by Deputy Cowan?

Mr. Traynor

Yes. I mentioned initially that when we got down to examining it we came to the conclusion that the people who prepared the Act never intended the present position.

Mr. S. Collins

I think that is absolutely correct.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill".

Mr. O'Higgins

I wonder could I raise two particular matters, as this section appears to provide for a reopening to a certain extent of the claims for pensions by different applicants. I would like to refer the Minister to the claims of certain 1916 men in Offaly and Cork. In and around Tullamore on the 20th March, 1916, an armed engagement took place with members of the R.I.C. Certain persons were charged and were eventually imprisoned. These men were in prison until June, 1916. They were in prison when the 1916 Rebellion took place. I would urge that, with regard to men of that kind, who obviously might have been available to take part in the Rebellion and who certainly would have had the intention, as proven by the fact that they did engage in an armed combat with the police at the time, should at least be entitled to some certificate recognising their service.

The other case that I would like to mention is a case which has been mentioned here from time to time of the Corkmen who were out, mobilised and ready for the 1916 Rebellion and whose participation in that Rebellion and became unnecessary and could not take place by reason of the countermanding of the instructions. Again, if those men are not entitled to a military service pension, the minimum they should get from the State is a recognition of their service. Certainly, they should get under these Acts a certificate that they were available to play a part in the national movement and gave that service.

I know that possibly it is not strictly correct to raise this matter on this section—I suppose I could raise it on the last stage of the Bill—but I do urge on the Minister that some investigation should be made.

I mention two groups of men, one group in my own constituency, the other in Cork. I am quite certain that there are similar groups all over the country who were available, who had been trained, who were members, who were keyed up to play their part in the 1916 Rebellion and who would have gone out had the Rebellion followed the pattern of the original plan. Those men did not see active service, through no fault of their own. They may not be entitled, in the accepted view with regard to military service pensions, to pensions but they certainly should get a certificate of service and they certainly should get a 1916 medal.

It is recognised in any army in the world that, when the war is over, when medals are issued for service during the war, each member of the army gets his medal although he may have been a cook peeling potatoes hundreds of miles from the actual firing or warfare. He is a member of an army. As such, he is under orders and must do nothing or engage in actual combat, according to orders. For that reason, all members of the Volunteers, who were trained, should get recognition of their service. By giving them such recognition the Minister will help to undo what has been a grievance nursed by a lot of people for a great number of years. Iwould like to suggest—I do not suppose it would be proper on this Bill— that all these people should be treated very much the same but it would be a grand thing that these men, in the winter of their days, should get from the State recognition that they were available at a time when it was not popular to be a member of the Volunteers, to give service under arms if the need arose.

Mr. MacCarthy

As far as the Cork Volunteers are concerned, there is a genuine grievance. I am sure the same applies elsewhere. Roughly 250 Volunteers actually left Cork Volunteer Hall in Sheares Street under arms and were about to entrain for Macroom when the cancellation order was brought to Cork by a Volunteer. Notwithstanding that, the men proceeded to Macroom, according to the original instructions, and started out individually and collectively to do their duty on that occasion. It was not their fault that matters did not turn out as anticipated. I agree that, although it may not be practicable or perhaps would not come within the scope of the Bill to give them a pension, at least they ought to get a medal in recognition of their service at that period.

Mr. S. Collins

I think the Minister can cover that without an amendment to the Bill. Cannot he cover that point, if he so desires, by an alteration in the statutory regulation as distinct from an amendment to the Bill? I would urge upon the Minister that where people were available in any way and where circumstances outside their control prevented their being actual participants at the time, he would consider favourably the possibility of giving them recognition on the basis suggested by Deputy O'Higgins or by Deputy MacCarthy, that they were Volunteers available for active service and, as such, would come within the category of 1916 men but possibly not within the category of pensionable 1916 men.

Mr. O'Higgins

Actually the Cork men attended Mass prior to taking part.

Mr. Traynor

This section deals only with the extension of time for making petitions under the Act of 1949 and the subject of Deputy O'Higgins's speech covered a much wider scope. So far as I know, the position would be this. If the persons to whom Deputy O'Higgins refers are in receipt of pensions they have had their cases heard and examined and they are therefore outside the scope of the Bill and we can do nothing about them. I may have a great deal of sympathy with the views expressed, especially in the case of the Cork Brigade, because I do know that they were, to all intents and purposes, in action inasmuch as they were in position and so on. But we can do nothing about that through the medium of this Bill. I do not know how it can be dealt with now, because the 1949 Act did not deal with any persons who had already received a favourable decision and they are quite outside the scope of the Bill and therefore it would require some other method to achieve the result that Deputy O'Higgins has in mind.

Mr. S. Collins

I suggest to the Minister that possibly a change in regard to the question of service and what was service could be made to include that category, as distinct from a change in the Act.

Mr. O'Higgins

One of the men involved in that engagement in Tullamore prior to 1916 is in receipt of a pension but the others are not. They were all in the engagement and they were all court martialled. As I said, one of them got a pension.