Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 1953

Vol. 137 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

In listening to the singularly uninformative speech of the Minister for Finance last night, I gained very strongly the impression that he was endeavouring, as far as possible, to give the House and the country the impression that he was disclaiming responsibility for the enormous expenditure proposed in the Book of Estimates presented by him to the Dáil this year. He used phrases such as: "The volume of Estimates must give us all food for thought" and he spoke about his anxiety as Minister for Finance looking at the ever-increasing cost of the public service. He implicitly if not explicitly criticised the members of this House for what he called their uncritical approach to the problems of Government expenditure and public finance. He said that in recent years we had become so accustomed to think in terms of millions that an entirely uncritical attitude had developed with regard to proposals for State expenditure. I wonder did he recall the statement made by his colleague, Deputy Dr. Ryan, the Minister for Health, last year, when speaking on the general resolution for the Budget, he said, as reported at column 1529, Volume 130, No. 10: "We speak in millions"? Was it an echo from that phrase that induced the Minister for Finance last night to say that the members of this House had developed uncritical faculties in dealing with matters of public finance?

I have always understood that the Estimates as presented in the annual Book of Estimates gave at least an indication of Government policy. The Minister himself last night made use of an expression to which I think, having regard to what I have said, some importance must be attached because while realising and recognising, to some extent at least, the fact that these Estimates as they are presented to the Dáil, do give an indication of Government policy, he added the rather significant phrase:—

"Because the Vote on Accounts founded as it is, on the detailed Estimates of public expenditure set out in the Volume of Estimates, presents a statistical survey of public policy as formulated by the Government".

Passing from that statement which is entirely unexceptional he went on to use a very different phrase: "And endorsed by Dáil Éireann." What is the significance of the phrase: "And endorsed by Dáil Éireann"? Am I not justified, at least in entertaining the suspicion, that the Minister is trying to make it appear to the public that it is these uncritical Deputies of Dáil Éireann who have so lost a sense of financial responsibility, so lost a sense of their duties to their constituents and to the public generally as to have no right critical approach to any matters of public finance and who have an irresponsible attitude to State expenditure, that he wanted the public to think: "I am the just man amongst all these irresponsible Deputies, I am the person who is forced to bring in this Book of Estimates having on the face of it the record figure of £100,500,000"?

I have always understood that the Book of Estimates constituted an indication of Government policy. It is presented to the Dáil whose duty it is to accept or reject these proposals but whether they are accepted or rejected, before they are, to use the phrase made use of by the Minister for Finance last night, "endorsed by Dáil Éireann", they represent Government policy by which the Government must stand or fall. There is no use in the Minister making the pretence, as I think he did last night, that he is thejust orthodox financier standing between the public and a rapacious Dáil, who have no sense of their responsibility and no critical faculty so far as a proper examination of the expenditure on State services is concerned.

If the Minister for Finance wishes his statement to be accepted as having any degree of bona fidesin it, then what he should have done is this. If he is satisfied, and apparently we are to take it from what he said that he is satisfied, that the rate of Government expenditure is excessive, that there must be a halt and that unless some effort is made to curb Government expenditure the problem of next year's Budget will be grave indeed, his duty was, not to bring in that Book of Estimates for £100,500,000 which it is proposed to expend on Government services for the coming year; his duty was to take a stand, even at the risk of losing his position as Minister for Finance on what he was trying to say throughout his entire speech—that he does not like the Book of Estimates, that he does not really stand over it and that it is the irresponsible and uncritical members of the Dáil, including his own colleague, Deputy Dr. Ryan who said last year that he spoke in millions, who are responsible for forcing him and his colleagues in the Government to bring this record figure for public expenditure before the Dáil this year. I think also that a greater degree of credence would have been given to his posturings last night had he not in the course of a speech in which he was dealing with this high degree of public expenditure which was searing his orthodox financial soul, taken occasion from time to time to make boastful references to the extent to which he himself and his colleagues in the Government had increased public expenditure on certain items over and above what the inter-Party Government had provided in their time. The Minister for Finance and his colleagues must face their responsibilities in this matter. They have brought in this record figure for public expenditure. It is is higher than it has ever been before. They have put it into a Book of Estimates in such a form that it is impossible to say which of these itemsare capital, which of these items are appropriate to be financed out of borrowings, which of the items must be paid for out of current expenditure and whether or not there is any financial policy with regard to capital expenditure on productive enterprises in this country. They brought it in in that form. They have recommended to the House Estimates of a character higher than they have ever been before —and for that they must take full responsibility.

There is no use in saying that there must be a curb on public expenditure Before that Book of Estimates was brought in was the time to curb public expenditure and to say, in the Minister's view and in the view of the Government, in what respects each or any of the items in that Book of Estimates could be pruned or curbed or cut. The Minister and his colleagues in the Government must now take responsibility for the fact that they have proposed to this House and to the people of the country an expenditure of £100,000,000 odd in the course of the coming year and at the close of a financial year during which this country has suffered from the economic and financial policy of the Government to such an extent as to bring havoc and human suffering to all sections of the people.

I have little doubt, without having the full or proper information before me—without even having an accurate estimate of the revenue and expenditure of the Government in the financial year which is just ending— that what all the Minister's posturings and posing mean is that the Government know that they must decrease taxation or get out of office; that they know that they can decrease taxation, having regard to the experience which they have gone through during the past year, and that they intend to decrease taxation.

I want to recall to the minds of Deputies of this House the forecast which we gave last year on the debate on the Budget Resolutions. We said then that the Minister for Finance was bringing in a harsh, oppressive, unjust and unnecessary Budget in order that he could pose before the country as afinancial purist dealing with a difficult situation which only a policy of austerity could solve and in order that, this year, he could show that he had accomplished that difficult and thankless task and is now in a position to ease the burden of taxation on the people. I have no doubt whatever that that is what is at the back of all the talk which has been going on in the past few days.

All the Ministers who have been touring the country over the week-end have been singing the same tune. They are all saying that the limit of taxable capacity has been reached by the people. The only light interlude that we had was that the Tánaiste— the Minister for Industry and Commerce—instead of having the country round corners, now has the country going across a hump. We have reached the limit of taxable capacity. Who brought this country to that limit and was there any justification for so doing? That is the investigation that we have to conduct during the course of the discussion on this Vote on Account.

The Minister disclaimed last night any idea of justifying his economic or his financial policy. Before this debate closes, however, I think that he will be forced—even in anticipation of his Budget statement—to give at least some justification for the measures that he took in April of last year and which have brought such suffering to every section of the community. I propose to give, in as short a space as possible, some attention to a critical examination of the philosophy underlying the financial policy of the Minister for Finance and the economic policy of the Government, as evidenced by their financial proposals last year, in the course of the remarks I have to make. I approach that task of critical examination of the Government's financial and economic policy with all the more assurance because we on this side of the House over the past year and a half have expounded in detail a policy, financial and economic, which would have solved all the economic and financial ills of which the Minister for Finance made such complaint lastnight and of which his colleagues have been complaining throughout the country for the past 18 months.

We do not come here as destructive critics. At the Fine Gael Árd Fheis of last year, at the Fine Gael Árd Fheis of this year, in speeches made in Kilkenny, Cavan, Carlow, Cork, Dublin and elsewhere, I gave details of our policy, following upon the policy initiated and put into operation by the inter-Party Government, and of all these matters which would have relieved the State expenditure of the appalling burden which is now placed upon it by the Minister for Finance's proposals and the policy of his Government. We gave details of our proposals. There has never been a single criticism by any member of the Government of any of these detailed proposals which we expounded as our policy and as our cure for the economic ills from which this country is suffering at present.

There is no use in the Minister for Finance throwing up his hands when introducing this Vote on Account and saying that there must be a limit to Government expenditure. It is quite clear that the only policy that the Minister for Finance has in reference to the Budget is what we, in some of the speeches that we made in recent times, have called the book-keeping approach to the Estimates and to the Budget. They are nothing but bookkeepers. So long as the account books on public finance are balanced and in proper order it matters not to orthodox finance, as expounded by the Minister for Finance, whether or not there is unemployment, progressively increasing emigration, stagnation of business, restriction of credit, a falling off in purchasing power and human suffering in every section of the community. That was the British teaching, example and practice during the years 1930 to 1936. That was the orthodox financial policy of the British Treasury between 1930 and 1936—a policy which was proved to be a failure. That is the foundation and the root of all the financial and economic policy of the present Minister for Finance and his colleagues in the Government. So long as the Public Accounts are balanced—so long as a good public accountant can say: "That is good accountancy"—then the Department of Finance is satisfied with that policy, and it matters not that the budgetary policy has no part in framing economic or financial policy for the purpose of dealing with the economic problems of the country.

Last year we heard the philosophy of the Minister for Finance when he introduced the Budget. During the course of his speech on that occasion we heard the Minister for Finance's urgent statements about the necessity for more production. I want to quote now from column 1114 of the Official Report of the 2nd April, 1952—Volume 130 No. 8. The Minister for Finance stated:—

"Agricultural produce in fact is the foundation of by far the greater part of our export trade."

With the realisation of that very fundamental fact, he then, in a later part of his speech, dealt with industrial production, and, speaking at column 1117 of the same volume, he proceeded to deal with the role that industry had to play in this country in reference to a contribution towards our export trade. He realised the value of agricultural production in our export trade and this is what he said about the contribution that is to be given by trade and industry to that export trade:—

"If these industries are to play their part in providing employment, those who are engaged in them must concern themselves not only with the home market but most urgently with the development of an export market for their products. Coupled with an increase in agricultural production for export, this would be a remedy for most of our problems."

That is an entirely unexceptional statement. He then goes on to speak about the necessity for efficiency and low costs and in connection with our export market he said:—

"The export market, however, is highly competitive, so that efficiency of production and low costs are of first importance."

Later, about the middle of column 1118, he said:—

"Nor should it be overlooked that the element of cost, which is so frequently submerged in a highly protected home market, is of predominant importance in the export trade."

Let us see how those principles have been worked out in practice as a result of budgetary policy. So far as agricultural production is concerned, Ministers are complaining that it is not as high as it should be. They are talking about agricultural production. Last night, the Minister for Finance again repeated the practice to which I referred in a recent speech that I made as to the policy of Ministers going around appealing for harder work and talking about more production, but providing no policy which would lead to greater production either agricultural or industrial.

In the speech which I made recently —I am quoting it for the purpose of brevity and so that I may not be repeating myself at too great length— this is what I said:—

"Ministers of the present Government indulge themselves in repeated exhortations to increase production, while at the same time pursuing a financial policy which has only had the inevitable effect of reducing production and increasing unemployment. We cannot be content with mere exhortations to harder work and increased production, but must, instead, take steps to change the conditions of production in such a way as to lead to that creation of wealth which alone can bring a greater measure of prosperity."

Last night, the Minister for Finance appealed for more production in the same general sort of way without giving the slightest indication as to what the policy was which would lead to such increased production and greater wealth. He said towards the close of his speech, following upon the statement to which I have already referred, that the volume of the Estimates "must give us all food for thought," and then he asked, "are we going to be able to raise thenecessary revenues," and said that the only way in which we can do that is by increased production.

What has been the effect of the financial policy of the Minister and his colleagues, as put into active operation during the financial year, and of the budgetary policy of April of last year? So far as agriculture is concerned we have now reached the point where it is almost visible that agricultural production for export is no longer economic. The red light must be flashed and flashed insistently before the minds of the Government, because, as a result of the financial policy put into operation by the last Budget, costs have been increased in every direction, both by the withdrawal of subsidies and by increased taxation, by the increase in prices and by the assault that was made on purchasing power. Agricultural wages, the same as for every other class in the community with the one exception— the civil servants—have been increased and have had to be increased

All that has been the effect of Government policy. So far as agricultural production is concerned, we have reached that point of extreme danger to the agricultural industry. I cannot emphasise that aspect of our economic condition too strongly. It will be dealt with in greater detail by a greater expert than I can claim to be on agriculture—by my colleague Deputy Dillon—in the course of the remarks which he will have to make on this Vote on Account. But it is of vital importance that the people of this country should realise what I have said. I do not wish to indulge in hyperbolic expressions. I content myself merely by saying that this serious condition is there by reason of the effect of the budgetary and economic policy of the present Government on trade, agriculture and industry.

Already, certain of those agricultural products have become uneconomic for export. We are facing the grave danger that some of our stable agricultural products will no longer be capable of being exported atan economic figure. That is a very serious danger for this country. The Minister for Finance, in the quotation which I have given from his speech made last year, realised that agricultural produce is "the foundation of by far the greater part of our export trade." If, as a result of the financial policy of the Government, that export trade is in jeopardy, then the condition of this country is very grave indeed.

What has been the effect upon our industrial production for export? That was the second limb on which the Minister based his policy of restoring financial order, as he called it, last year—increased agricultural production with increased industrial production for export. In the course of his remarks, which I have referred to and quoted, he laid emphasis on the fact, as Deputies know, that efficiency and low costs enter very largely into the question of our capacity to export our industrial products.

What is the position at present as regards industrial production? Everyone knows that industrial production here by reason of circumstances, historical and otherwise, is high cost production at the best of times, which makes it difficult for us to compete with other States in the export market; but, in respect of every single item that enters into the costs of industrial production, those costs have been increased enormously by the policy of the present Government as put into operation by the last Budget. Wages have been increased. Purchasing power in the hands of the community has been cut. There has been a refusal by the members of the community to purchase. There has been restriction in credit, no matter what members of the Government may say. There has been stagnation in trade.

How is it possible in that state of facts for any hope to emerge under the present Government and its financial policy for anything in the nature of industrial exports to come to the aid of our balance of payments situation as he hoped for last year?

We have got really to the pointwhere the effect of Government policy has been to damage our competitive position by increasing the costs of our industrial produce and we have done that at a time when in many commodities and on many items world costs are falling.

There is the picture of the result of Government financial policy in the last financial year on our agricultural industry and on our industrial production. Of course, we have balanced our international accounts—we all knew you could balance your international accounts—but at what a price. We have balanced our international accounts at the price of depression, deflation, unemployment and human misery. It is very easy to do that. We always knew that that could be done. The Central Bank pointed out the way and the Minister for Finance and his colleagues took the path pointed out to them by the Central Bank. But we would not take that path which led to these results of deflation, depression, unemployment and human misery.

In the course of the remarks I have to make I will have something to say on this problem of the balance of payments which was put last year in the forefront of the Minister's speech as the problem that had to be solved. Let us say that the problem has been solved. Let us assume, contrary to the facts, that the problem has been solved by the budgetary devices adopted last year by the Minister for Finance, by his assault on personal incomes, by his deliberate policy of creating unemployment. By increasing the price of essential materials, and thereby decreasing the purchasing power in the hands of the community, he has undoubtedly cut imports; he has undoubtedly cut consumption, but, equally undoubtedly, he has caused lack of confidence, depression in trade and industry, stagnation in business, unemployment, emigration and human misery and suffering throughout the country.

The Minister for Finance last year stated that the reason why he was having an early Budget was the urgent need to restore order in the public finances and in our general economy—column 1113 of the Budget Debate, 2nd April, 1952. Further on, at column 1154 he was dealing with his intention of having a loan and he said:

"With all due regard for the position of our existing bondholders—"

The existing bondholders now reading that phrase will certainly take a poor view of the concern the Minister had for them.

"—we shall do our part to make the new issue attractive to all classes of potential investors. We can say truthfully to them that in this Budget onerous as it may be, we have done what is essential, but no more than is essential to put the public finances in order and to revive confidence in the credit and stability of the State."

Take these two statements of the Minister for Finance now and judge them by the results of the Budget in the last 12 months. Can anybody say that there exists at the present time public confidence in the stability of the State? Is not the outstanding feature of our economy at the present moment the entire lack of confidence, the fear that nobody knows what the future holds, the fear of the unemployed, the fear of those who are in part-time employment that to-day, to-morrow and next week there may be no employment, the fear that those in full employment now will be in part-time employment in a short time or in full unemployment in perhaps a shorter time still? Can anybody say that the Minister had done nothing more than was necessary to restore public confidence in the credit of the State? Has he not done exactly the direct opposite to that by the financial proposals that he put into effect, proposals which were based, as I will show in a moment, upon the thesis that the people of this country had more income than they required for their needs and that they were eating too much and living too well? That was the philosophy behind the Budget.

The food subsidies were reduced. I will take the Minister's own figures, although I objected to them last year. The Minister said that he would save£3.9 million in this financial year on the cut in subsidies and he put £11.2 million on taxation. What has been the effect of the saving of that £3.9 million on food subsidies and of the extra taxation to the extent of £11.2 million on the economy of the people and on the human sufferings of individual citizens? It does not require any advocacy on my part. It needs no over-painting of the gloomy picture which obtains in practically every home throughout this country to show the effect of the Minister's onerous Budget on each individual citizen.

Anybody, whatever his walk of life may be, can truthfully say to the Minister that he did not truthfully say that he had done nothing more than was necessary to achieve order in the public finances by his onerous Budget of last year.

In the course of his financial statement the Minister stated that incomes generally had advanced beyond the cost of living. I want to get the exact quotation so that I may not be accused of misquoting the Minister. At column 1137 of the Official Report he said:—

"In agriculture and in industry earnings have advanced since 1938 by more than the cost of living. The food subsidies are now, in practice, nothing more than a State supplement to income generally..."

As reported in the following column, he said:—

"The Government have given careful consideration to this problem over recent months. They are satisfied that, as incomes generally have already advanced more than the cost of living and as essential foodstuffs are no longer scarce, there is now no economic or social justification for a policy of subsidising food for everybody."

There is the philosophy which is the basis of the Minister's financial outlook and policy. He and his colleagues in the Government were satisfied that incomes had advanced more than the cost of living. Nobody but the Minister and his colleagues believed that. Having stated that, being satisfied that incomes had advanced beyond the costof living, they came to the conclusion therefore that there was too much money in the hands of the people and that it had to be got from them by taxation, they proceeded to get it from them by unjust and unnecessary taxation.

There was too much money in the hands of our people last year, according to the Minister, and that is the philosophy behind the Budget. They had too much money for spending purposes and it had to be scooped in by heavy taxation. It had to be scooped in by an increase in the price of ten essential commodities which were released from subsidies. Food subsidies were cut or reduced to the extent of £3.9 million. The price of tea, sugar, butter, bread and other essential commodities was increased. That is how the Minister assaulted the personal incomes of the citizens of this country and prevented them from doing what they had a right to do, using their excessive income over their necessary expenditure in any way they liked, either by saving or otherwise. The people were living and eating too well, apparently, and as personal incomes had advanced beyond the cost of living they had to be taken from them in heavy taxation. As they were living too well the price of butter, tea, sugar and bread had to be increased so that their standard of living might be depressed as well as their capacity for purchasing commodities had to be curtailed.

That was not sufficient, however. Having stated that as his philosophy and finally put that philosophy into practice by means of cutting the subsidies and the unnecessary increase in taxation, the Minister then proceeded to give the real view at the back of his mind, because at column 1127, having stated what he called the necessary steps which must be taken to produce a healthy economy, he said:—

"As a necessary corollary to these two conditions of economic recovery there must be the greatest restraint in relation to increases in income, whether in the form of profits, wages or salaries."

Personal incomes had increasedbeyond the cost of living, according to the Minister. There was too much purchasing power in the hands of the community. They were living too well and he would see that they ceased to live so well. He would take the necessary measures to see that they would not have in their hands any excessive purchasing power to spend in a way he did not want them to spend. Accordingly, he attacked and assaulted their personal incomes in that way and then issued this warning: "I am taking from you the excessive income that you have over the cost of living and require that you must not try to get an increase of wages because of that."

Having given the history of the food subsidies in an earlier part of his speech, when he said that the original idea of the food subsidies was conceived and put into operation at a time when there was a Standstill Wages Order, he stated that it was in order to relieve the effect on incomes that could not go up because of the Standstill Wages Order and the increase in the prices of essential commodities that subsidisation was resorted to in 1947. But the Budget proposals of that year and the increases put on by the Supplementary Budget of that year were designed for that purpose, because when the Standstill Wages Order had gone the taxes remained and were put on again in increased force and pressure by the Minister last year. He warned as loudly as he dared at the time in these words to people, whether wage earners or salary earners, "you are not to look for any increase in wages or in salaries." Of course what the Minister had in mind was, "We will increase the price of essential commodities and we will tax your surplus income so that you cannot spend it upon consumer goods. You are to stay that way. You are not to try to get any compensation in the way of increased wages because of what I have done."

The Minister's purpose was thwarted and it was thwarted by the very necessities of the occasion and it would be still further thwarted. There would have been higher wages granted that perhaps ought to be granted, having regard to the impositions put on thepeople by the Minister, were it not for the fact that working people and people earning salaries were afraid of unemployment if they asked for more wages. At all events, workers and, to some extent, salaried people in public companies and otherwise were able, notwithstanding the Minister's warning contained in the statement I have adverted to, to gain certain additions to their wages and salaries.

So far as the Minister's intention was concerned, however, his object was to prevent any increase in wages or salaries as far as he could do it, and he did it as far as he could do it with the only people over whom he had any control, the civil servants, the teachers and other public servants of that kind. He has prevented those people from getting the increase to which they are justly entitled because of the conditions which the Minister has created deliberately and as a result of deliberate Budgetary policy last year which inevitably led to demands for increased wages and salaries in the Civil Service as well as in unemployment outside. That indicates the Minister's mentality in reference to these people over whom he and his colleagues had any control. He stated: "We are going to have a Standstill Wages Order," because that is what we meant when we stated: "We are going to assault your personal incomes, take away your excess purchasing power and prevent you from using that excessive purchasing power. We are not going to let you thwart our efforts by getting any compensation by way of increased wages or salaries."

What has been the cost of this to the community? It is incalculable, perhaps it is irreparable. If it is not irreparable, it certainly will remain as an injury to the economic fabric of the State for very many years after the present Government have ceased to be the Government. The position has almost become frozen. Any Government that succeeds the present Government will have a task of appalling difficulty to contend with.

The cost to the community has been incalculable. A sum of £3.9 million was saved to the Exchequer andorthodox finance was pleased because there was a book-keeping gain, there was a saving of £3.9 million. At what expense to the community? Wages have gone up. The costs of industrial production have gone up, and the costs of agricultural production have gone up to a point, as I have already said, at which both agricultural and industrial products have reached the stage where it is almost uneconomic to export them and so reap their contribution to our international payments problem.

We do not know the cost to the community, but in every respect as a result of these impositions and as a result of deliberate budgetary policy costs have increased. Rates are going up. Business has become stagnant. There has been a restriction of credit by the banks following what they believed to be Government policy. No matter what any member of the Government says, be it the Taoiseach or a Minister, there has been a restriction of credit in the last 12 months. One of the things that has contributed most to the disrepute in which the Government is held to-day by decent people is the insistent denial by Ministers that there has been no restriction of credit. Speak to any man whose credit has been restricted, speak to any man who has suffered at the hands of the banks because of the operation of that policy and he will tell one very quickly that there has been a restriction of credit. He will tell one very quickly as to whether or not it is an illusion, as the Minister and the Government would have it. He will tell one very quickly whether or not it is a hard and cruel fact. There has been a restriction of credit and a consequent restriction of business. The greatest damage that has been done, however, is the creation of a lack of confidence that pervades the entire economic atmosphere to-day as a result of Government policy. The cost to the community is incalculable. But orthodox finance has been justified. A sum of £3.9 million appears on the credit side of the financial accounts. Human misery and suffering appear nowhere on those accounts. With those orthodox finance is not concerned.

In the forefront of the Minister's statement last year he placed what he called the nature and magnitude of the problem of the deficit in the balance of payments. I have already said— indeed we have always said this—that that balance of payments deficit could easily be liquidated at the expense of depression, deflation, unemployment and human suffering. Apart from that altogether, Deputies and others in responsible positions who are capable of thinking clearly and in a detached way will remember the exposure through which we put the Minister and his White Paper in the autumn of last year when we exposed the fallacies, the inaccuracies, the falsehoods, the underlying incorrect assumptions, the erroneous statistics and the inaccurate calculations made in that White Paper. We pointed out to the Minister and to his colleagues at the time that they appeared to be making a fetish of the deficit in the adverse balance of trade; that they were obsessed by the fact that they must at all costs and with extreme urgency wipe out for all time the deficit in our international balance of payments.

We pointed out to them at the time from the figures available to us—and we have been justified by every figure that has since become available—that that deficit in the balance of payments which appeared to obsess the Minister and his colleagues in the Government was caused by accidental circumstances in a particular crisis due to international conditions in the year 1951; that because of those conditions and the international uncertainty stockpiling took place; that we in the inter-Party Government had as a deliberate policy encouraged and so far as governmental action was concerned had made effective the stockpiling of essential commodities against the possibility of international disruption of business and trade. Because of that there was inevitably a deficit in our balance of payments but we pointed out that the deficit would automatically tend to correct itself and at the time when we were discussing this White Paper in October, 1951, that automatic trend was even then coming into active operation and the deficit inthe balance of payments, which was then stated by the Minister to be in the order of £70,000,000, was nothing of the sort; that, in any event, in the course of a few months it would correct itself and that this year there would be very little, if any, deficit in our adverse trade balance.

The Minister, of course, stuck to his £70,000,000 as long as he could. Subsequently he reduced it to £60,000,000. In his Budget statement, having put this problem of the deficit in the balance of payments in the forefront of the problems that he alleged were then facing him, he proceeded to make two statements of a remarkable character, statements which show how fundamentally unsound and how erroneous were the assumptions on which the Budget was framed and based. At columns 1123 and 1124 of the Official Report on 2nd April, 1952, the Minister said:—

"Similarly, on the earnings side, while we may expect some increase in export prices the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting upon any material increase in the quantity exported. The trade deficits for January and February of this year provide little ground for optimism and it seems clear that, without an improvement in personal savings and a reduction in inflationary Government finance, the deficits in the balance of payments will remain excessive. Allowing for a favourable turn in the terms of trade, for some drawing down of stocks and for increased tourist income, the balance of payments deficit which we faced at the beginning of 1952 was about £50,000,000."

That was one of the assumptions upon which the Minister framed his Budget. In the very forefront of his speech he referred to the problem of the deficit in the balance of payments and on the assumption that there was that year, 1952, a deficit at the rate of £50,000,000 —I am accepting it that the Minister was speaking at the time at the rate of £50,000,000; at all events he said it was going to be excessive—the balance of payments was to remain excessive.The balance of payments last year was practically nothing. I have reason to believe in point of fact that there was not merely no deficit but there was actually an increase in our sterling balance.

In the course of the year following this ridiculous statement by the Minister for Finance and his colleagues that the deficit in the balance of payments would be of the order of £50,000,000, his colleague, the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, attending various banquets was cutting a few millions off that £50,000,000 at every banquet he attended. Finally at a meeting of the Professional Bodies Association in Bray he said the deficit in the balance of payments was in the order of £10,000,000. Between April and October, it had come down to £10,000,000 according to the Minister's colleague.

Let it be £10,000,000 or let it be £12,000,000. I believe myself it would in fact be less than £10,000,000. Let it be a £10,000,000 deficit. Look at the returns for years past and one will find that year by year something in the order of £15,000,000 was coming into this country by way of capital investment from abroad, thereby not merely wiping out that £10,000,000 deficit but leaving an actual surplus of something in the order of £3,000,000 to £5,000,000. Instead of there being a deficit of the order of £50,000,000 last year, a deficit on which budgetary policy was framed, I believe we had a real balance in our international trade because of the policy put into operation by Deputy McGilligan as Minister for Finance in the inter-Party Government.

Again, the Minister was wrong in his diagnosis and in the assumptions upon which he based his Estimates when he said:—

"While we may expect some increase in export prices the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting upon any material increase in the quantity exported."

The Minister stated there that there would be no material increase in our agricultural exports. There was anincrease of £20,000,000 over and above what we thought we would get last year. Over £100,000,000 worth of agricultural products were exported last year. Of course, the Minister for Finance in order to justify his assault upon personal incomes, in order to justify himself in the eyes of those people upon whom he was inflicting unemployment and hardship and making an assault upon their personal incomes, had to say that there was no significant increase in agricultural production. There was a dramatic increase last year in our exportable surplus of agricultural products but because of the assault that has been made by the Minister and his colleagues in the Government upon our entire economy that agricultural industry is now in grave jeopardy. We are at the point where the red light must be flashed. Because of the increase in costs of production in the agricultural industry, we may find ourselves in the position of not being able to export sufficient agricultural products to support our economy.

Those are some of the effects of the Minister's Budget. I looked in vain in this Book of Estimates for the capital items. Deputies will recall that our policy in the inter-Party Government was based upon the machinery of the dual Budget. We believe as a fundamental principle of economic policy that it was the Government's duty so to order our economic affairs, so to regulate our economy as to produce the maximum degree of employment. We started out to achieve that and we achieved it. Through the financial and economic policy we adopted, we regulated, as far as government can do it, the level of economic activity to provide the maximum possible of employment in the country. We succeeded, for the first time in the history of the country, in reaching the position where there was practically full employment when we left office in June, 1951. Now we have nearly 90,000 unemployed. We have far more than that 90,000 unemployed because added to that figure there must be the figure of those people who have emigrated in the last 12 months. We have no real guideor index to the number of people who emigrate but we do know you cannot really find the exact figure of unemployed in this country until you find the number of those who, because of lack of employment, have emigrated to England or elsewhere. As against that, we in the inter-Party Government appealed to our people in Great Britain to come back and build our houses over here. We asked them to come back and they came back. The skilled workers are now leaving the country in their hundreds every day.

There is a further consideration which may be a very tragic consequence. It may very well be that the pool of employment in England is reaching saturation point and that there will be no work for our people going over to England, because so many of them have gone. I heard it related a few weeks ago, at the time the flood disasters occurred in certain parts of Great Britain, that one Irishman said to another: "There may be some good in that because if we go over there we may get employment." That was said by one Irishman to another over the last six weeks.

The inter-Party Government left this country with a condition of full employment. We did it because our policy was based on the fundamental principle that it was the duty of a Government so to regulate its economic activities as to provide the fullest measure of employment possible. We did that through the instrumentality of the dual Budget. We set out on the face of our Book of Estimates the items which we regarded as those on which public money should be spent. Those items which we thought were, and which proved to be, items of productive capital enterprise were being financed out of public moneys lent to us by the people of this country. We financed that policy of productive capital enterprise through the device of a deficit in the balance of our international payments. We felt, as I have already stated and as has been said so frequently in this House, that by the policy of prudent and controlled repatriation of our sterling assets, we could develop our country—which was underdeveloped in men and materials—and, particularly, the soil of the land of Ireland. We believed we could develop our underdeveloped economy and give full employment to our people. We justified ourselves in that policy.

What is the policy of the present Government in relation to repatriation of external assets? The only deduction that can be made from the form in which this Book of Estimates is framed is that they have now abandoned altogether that policy of the repatriation of our external assets. That prudent, controlled repatriation of our depreciating sterling assets which we initiated and put into operation with such beneficial effect during the inter-Party Government's term of office has now been abandoned.

I know the Minister for Finance and his colleagues have repeatedly stated they are in favour of productive capital enterprise but nowhere have they given credence to, or expressed their faith in, the fundamental commonplace of modern economics that you cannot have repatriation of our sterling assets without a deliberate deficit in our balance of payments. The whole financial policy of the Minister for Finance was based last year and still, apparently, is based, upon the eradication of any deficit in our balance of payments. We had the policy of prudent and controlled repatriation of sterling assets which involved necessarily, as an economic commonplace, a deliberate creation of a deficit in our balance of international payments. We had the nature and the priority of the investment of that money controlled in accordance with strict financial probity.

The policy of the present Government is to leave our assets not merely to increase but to depreciate, as they have done in the last few years. We considered it better to repatriate them and use them here instead of allowing them to depreciate in England. The policy of the Minister for Finance, which he put in the forefront of his economic statement last year, to eradicate the deficit in our balance of payments has brought about the position that we have increased our holdings of sterling assets last year. Instead of repatriating those sterlingassets, using them over here for the purposes of productive enterprises, giving employment and developing our undeveloped resources they have left them over in England. I am afraid we must gather from the Government's attitude that they are still to be left over there.

There is nothing to be gleaned from this Book of Estimates except that it reverted to the old system of orthodox British Treasury policy. The Estimates were framed from an orthodox financial British Treasury point of view. Provided an accountant could say the books were balanced, it did not matter if there was no policy enshrined in them. It made no difference if the Budget was not used as it ought to be used, as an instrument of economic policy. The orthodox financial principles, which were put into operation in the British Treasury and which proved to be incorrect in 1930 and 1936 were given approval here by the present Minister for Finance.

There is no indication in this Book of Estimates, providing for £100,500,000 of proposed expenditure, of what is the policy of the Minister regarding the repatriation of sterling assets, or what is his policy in regard to productive capital enterprise or how it is to be financed. Amongst many errors of which he was guilty, the Minister made two cardinal mistakes last year. He, first of all, failed to go for a loan in the autumn of 1951 at a time when he could have got that loan at a very much lower rate of interest than he was ultimately forced to offer to a number of greedy financiers who fell on our loan with avidity because of its wholly unauthorised and unexpected rate of interest. That was the first mistake he made but he made a bigger mistake, one upon which he started out from the very time he occupied those benches after the change of Government, when he attacked the credit of the country itself. Having attacked the credit of the country and having raised that spurious crisis which it took us months to dissipate, and having formed in the minds of the people in this country and people abroad a feeling of lack of confidence in our credit, instead of going for the loan at a time when hecould have procured it at a comparatively reasonable rate of interest, he sought it at a time when he was forced to give a greater rate of interest than was necessary, as has since been clearly proved because the national loan now stands at a premium. In other words the taxpayers will be taxed to give to those people who invested in the national loan two or three pounds of a premium on every £100, over what they paid for it. That was another of the cardinal errors of the ministerial policy that has brought us to the position in which we find ourselves at present.

I want to say that, as far as my colleagues and I are concerned, we shall give, not merely lip service but full co-operation to any proposal for genuine economy and the elimination of waste in public expenditure but we believe that wise spending is the wisest policy for the country in future—wise spending, and not merely pleas by the Minister for Finance such as he made last night to "uncritical, irresponsible Deputies" not to be asking for more money or greater Government expenditure. We believe that wise spending is the wisest economic policy and that a policy of wise spending can be operated in the way that we gave an indication it could be operated—through the medium of the dual Budget, as an instrument of economic policy, and the prudent repatriation of our external assets. I have indicated as I said detailed constructive proposals which are designed, I believe, to effect a remedy for the economic ills from which we are now suffering. I have heard no detailed policy from the Minister beyond his statement that Treasury orthodoxy must be adhered to, that he must balance or burst and that it does not matter about policy.

We shall support and co-operate with any genuine effort to eliminate waste but as I say there are items in this Book of Estimates that are put in there solely for the purpose of buying votes, for the purpose of getting support politically to keep Ministers in office and without full advertence to the vital facts of the present situation. The Minister speaking last night of Governmentexpenditure and what this country may have to face in the years to come, if it should still have the misfortune of having the present Government in office, asked rhetorically: "What is the Dáil going to do about it?" I know what I should like the Dáil to do. I know what the people would like it to do and that is to say to the present Government to get out and let in some Government that will bring an end to the human misery that has been created by every aspect of Government policy in the last few years.

The rejoinder to that is 69 votes to 43.

Mr. Costello

The rejoinder is to get the Taoiseach to visit the President to-day and you will get your answer.

Perhaps the Taoiseach will have a ride on Tulyar to the Park to dissolve the Dáil.

Tulyar smoked you out of your fox hole anyway.

I move that the following be adopted as a Standing Order of Dáil Éireann:—

There shall be appointed at the commencement of every session a Committee, to be known as "the Committee of Public Expenditure," to examine such of the Estimates presented to the Dáil as may seem fit to the Committee and to report what, if any, economies consistent with the policy implied in those Estimates may be effected therein.

The Committee shall consist of 17 members, none of whom shall be a member of the Government or a Parliamentary Secretary, and five of whom shall constitute a quorum.

The Committee shall be otherwise constituted according to the provisions of Standing Orders Nos. 67 and 70, and so as to be impartially representative of the Dáil.

The Committee may appoint sub-Committees and may refer to such sub-Committees any of the subjects which are within the purview of the Committee.

The Chairman of the Committeeshall be ex-officioa member of each sub-Committee.

The Committee and its sub-Committees shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and to adjourn from place to place. Three shall be a quorum of each sub-Committee.

The Committee shall have power to report from time to time.

First of all, I should like to thank the House for facilitating an early discussion of this motion. Naturally as a private Deputy, I am gratified to find that the Government is in general agreement with it. The motives of the Government in that agreement or the imputed motives of the Government are of no concern to me. I am only concerned in what I consider is a useful attempt to improve parliamentary control of expenditure. At first sight, it probably seems unfortunate that the time selected to propose this motion should have been the occasion of the debate on a Vote on Account which is normally a rather stormy parliamentary occasion. But, from one point of view, it is perhaps peculiarly fitting that it should arise at the same time as a Vote on Account, because the parliamentary functions which the motion seeks to promote are in contrast to the parliamentary functions normally discharged on the Vote on Account. The Vote on Account by custom is an occasion of a general debate on Government policy, almost to the exclusion of any discussions on the details of expenditure, that is details in the sense that this motion seeks to control. It is, however, proper that the debate on the Vote on Account should take that course because the purpose of such a Vote is to provide for the machinery of State during the period in which the Dáil will be considering the separate Estimates of the various Departments. What concerns me about that is that even the debates on separate Estimates are in practice and for very good reason, not unlike in their general character the debate on the Vote on Account, that is, a discussion of Government policy in relation to the activities of the individual Departments. However, if we consider aDepartment Estimate as something in the nature of an invoice for goods and services proposed to be rendered, I think it will be generally agreed that it is proper to inquire into more than the desirability of the items listed in the Estimates, in other words, into more than the policy implied. It is also proper to inquire how the amounts charged against separate items have been arrived at. However desirable as that may be, it is not in the ordinary course of events feasible to make such inquiries in the course of a debate on an Estimate in the Dáil.

Firstly, there is not just parliamentary time. Every Deputy is only too well aware that the time devoted to the Dáil Estimates is already very much cramped even with the debate almost entirely limited to a discussion of the policy provided by the Estimates, and the administration of the previous year. Secondly, although the Dáil is in Committee on Finance, in practice a Committee debate is not possible. I refer to the type of debate that normally takes place on the Committee Stage of a Bill. You can talk across the House and have a close examination of various details. That is not possible in a debate on an Estimate, largely because there is not time but also because—and I think this is a very material factor—there is no opportunity to call and examine witnesses. Yet it is clear that it is the duty of the Dáil to advert to the details of the moneys advanced to the Government and to ensure that, as far as possible, the best value will be got for every £ spent. In my view the detailed examination made by the Committee of Public Accounts on behalf of the Dáil, leaves no doubt that the details I mentioned are the concern of the Dáil. I am using this argument to establish that there is nothing novel in a suggestion that Parliament should be interested in the details of Estimates. I am maintaining that it is only the difficulties I have mentioned which so far have prevented Parliament from dealing with them directly. The size and the cost of the business of State have been growing so enormously that it is increasingly urgent that nothing should be left undone to secure everypossible economy which can be made while efficiency is maintained and—if I might borrow a phrase which has been used elsewhere in this respect—to see that 20/- value is got for every £ of the taxpayers' money that is spent. I should also like to say that my proposal is a natural evolutionary parliamentary growth.

I hope the House will bear with me while I recapitulate what I am sure every Deputy knows very well. I want to put this, so to speak, into its historical context. The parliamentary financial system which we operate here grew naturally from the system which was in use in the former United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In Great Britain, Parliament had slowly and, indeed, at times painfully, asserted its supreme authority over public finance. Originally the business of State was financed from the King's Privy Purse. Parliament was only called on in an emergency to vote a supply to what was indeed the King's Government. The value of money changed, the business of State grew and calls on Parliament to vote supplies gradually increased. In the end, parliamentary supply superseded entirely the King's purse. As public business became a charge on moneys which Parliament had itself to find by taxation, Parliament became conscious of the need to satisfy itself as to what exactly happened those moneys. Various reforms were introduced. The one that I am concerned with now arose about 90 years ago with the creation of the office of Comptroller and Auditor-General and the Public Accounts Committee. This established parliamentary control because the Comptroller and Auditor-General was set up as an independent officer, independent of Government, independent of the Treasury. This system of parliamentary control grew with the years and was, I think, a very powerful weapon in securing economy and regularity in the public service. Probably this was partly what we might now consider the niggardly outlook which dominated Parliament during the latter half of the 19th century. In those days the spendingof public moneys, at any rate, was a harsh necessity and not at all a virtue. With the turn of the century and for a number of years in the present century there gradually emerged a different conception to the part the State should play in the life of the community. I need not now go into the causes of that: the effect was that expenditure by the State gradually increased in popularity. This brought new problems in the control of public expenditure.

Parliament soon realised that the control of audit alone and insistence on the application of rules for the spending of public money were not sufficient guarantees that there would be economy, much less than that there would be parliamentary control. The rate of public expenditure was rising, the business of the State was becoming more complex and, at the same time, public pressure was continually exerted to secure more and more expenditure of public money. It became obligatory to see that the utmost value was got for every one of the increasing number of pounds that had to be raised by taxation. It may be illogical, but it is none the less true that while the public favoured more and more expenditure by the State, the public was equally reluctant to see the necessary expenditure provided by taxation. Faced with that position, the British Parliament decided that the immediate problem was to secure that there was no waste in the administration of public money. Whenever a problem like that arises in the British Parliament, they resort almost invariably to a Select Committee. In this case they tried Select Committees on Estimates, and, during a period which covered the emergence of our own State and which, indeed, lasted until the beginning of the last war, various Select Committees met from time to time with a view to examining the question of some control of the details of Estimates. Unfortunately, it has to be admitted that they had very little effect. I do not know, but I assume that the nonsuccess of these Committees influenced the decision here not to set up a Committee on Estimates when our own State came into being, because the restof the British Parliamentary system was taken over. Since then we have continued to evolve on the same lines. aPossibly, the comparatively small amount which was involved may have been a factor in the decision not to set up such a Committee. However, I think everyone will agree that that is no longer a valid consideration.

My own interest in this matter arose through my being a member of the Public Accounts Committee for some years. Gradually, I must admit, as I slowly gained experience of the system——

Under an excellent tutor.

——I realised that there was a gap, and that something more was desirable. I should also say that the details with which the Public Accounts Committee are concerned are about two years old if you take into account the time at which the Estimates were prepared—that is the Estimates which later have a bearing on the Appropriation Accounts to be considered by that Committee. My impression was that the Committee has not a great deal of effect on current affairs further than, if I may use the expression, of lending moral support to the Department of Finance.

Hear, hear! What will the Committee on the Estimates do? Provide it with a thumbscrew and a jackboot.

Deputy Sheldon should be allowed to continue.

A gag I would call it for some Deputies.

Although I was aware that, in Great Britain, similar problems are now being dealt with with some success, the mass of British parliamentary papers proved my undoing. I just could not manage to trace out in them what exactly was happening.

Hear, hear!

However, fortunately for me, I then discovered that the necessary research had just been completed by somebody else. I should liketo say that I think everyone who is interested in parliamentary finance is very deeply indebted to Dr. Basil Chubb for his book on "The Control of Public Expenditure." I am very glad, personally, to acknowledge that I am largely indebted to him for being in a position to propose this motion.

I do not think that Dr. Basil Chubb is a member of the British Parliament.

No, and he never will be.

He is doing valuable work near here at the moment.

Hear, hear!

After 30 years of trial and error in Britain, they did produce an Estimates Committee which has had satisfactory results. The experience of the wartime Committee on national expenditure suggested that why the former Committee had gone wrong was that it had tied itself too closely to the actual Book of Estimates—in other words, that it had interpreted its terms of reference too literally and had attempted to show how reductions could be made in the particular Book of Estimates that came under its review.

The new approach was a more general one—of course, still through the Book of Estimates, but dealing more with the current operations of the various Departments. From time to time, the Committee pursue such items of interest as seem good to it by using a flexible system of sub-committees. In other words, it endeavours to influence the future more than the immediate present. However, the Committee there did begin to get results. I suggest that here we have everything to gain and nothing to lose by profiting by the research work of that Committee and of the years of trial and error which it has given to this matter.

I am proposing that the Committee should have the same lifetime as the Dáil, partly because its inquiries could not, I think, be tied to a particular time of the year or be related to any particular financial year, and partlybecause my experience as a member of our Public Accounts Committee leads me to the conclusion that changes in the personnel of such a Committee can be a weakness. I say that because it takes new members a considerable time to familiarise themselves with the work and procedure of the Public Accounts Committee. I have suggested a Committee of 17. I admit that is a pure matter of guesswork. It is only experience that will show what is really necessary. Variations in the size of the Committee should not present any difficulty. Such changes take place from time to time, even in the case of the present Public Accounts Committee. I suggest that it will have to be a fairly large Committee, but I think that once the initial inquiries have been made most of the work will devolve on the various sub-committees, the main Committee itself probably having to meet only to formulate reports. As happens in the case of the present Public Accounts Committee, I suggest that the Committee should report to the Dáil, but just as the Public Accounts Committee reports do, its decisions would, I imagine, impinge directly on the Department.

It is provided in the motion that economies should be consistent with the policy implied in the Estimates and that no conflict with ministerial responsibility can arise. That, I think, should satisfy both sides of the House. Ministers, I am sure, would not wish to feel that the Committee was getting behind them in their Departments, and I am sure the Opposition would be equally reluctant to think that Ministers could shelve some of their responsibilities. In the motion, therefore, policy is definitely put out of bounds so that the Committee would have nothing to do with it. I must admit, of course, that the bounds of policy are not very easy to define, but I think that anyone who reflects on it will see that, if the Committee were to deal with policy, it would only stultify itself. The only way in which the Committee can be effective is through harmonious work with the Government. It is not easy to indicate the type of business which may profitably bear examination. Ifit were as easy as that we probably would not need a Committee. Besides, I think it proper that the Committee should be left to decide that for itself. If I may be permitted, without prejudice to what the Committee might like to decide, I would like to indicate what seems to me the most profitable point of entry. That would be that the Committee could begin by investigating how the Estimates are prepared by Departments and what is Finance control over that. How does it operate? Such a general inquiry would present the various lines of inquiry to the Committee which it could then pursue through its sub-committee. I am, however, tempted to suggest one or two subjects which might, from my experience on the Public Accounts Committee, be useful to pursue.

The first is what is called O and M— Organisation and Methods. That is a division in the Department of Finance and the general purpose, very roughly speaking, is to see that efficient methods are used generally throughout the Civil Service and, where any particularly advantageous way of performing a service has been discovered by a Department, that the benefit of that discovery would be given to the entire service. This Committee might very well inquire if that system has been successful and how far it has been pushed. Has it been pushed to the limits of its usefulness?

As far as Finance will allow it to be pushed. But they blocked it at every turn because they said it cost too much.

That should be a profitable line of inquiry.

It will not, because the Committee will be turned into a further thumbscrew to prevent expenditure on O and M. They would not even allow principal officers. They wanted junior executives to operate as O and M officers. We got them to make it higher executives.

When the monologue stops, Deputy Hilliard will be allowed to resume.

Sheldon is the name.Deputy Hilliard is foolish enough to support the Minister. He is from County Meath.

Deputy Sheldon should be allowed to continue without interruption.

There are also commercial activities of some Departments which may involve the preparation of trading accounts; the expenditure on civil defence; contract procedure in general——

The Post Office will tell you about that.

——and the form of Government accounts. Since the latter and perhaps other subjects could lead to changes in the form of Estimates, which are considered by the Public Accounts Committee, liaison between the two Committees would seem to be desirable. Indeed it was favoured at one time in Great Britain that there should be a joint committee on Estimates and Accounts. The idea, of course, was that the Committee would then be able to keep under review the entire process from start to finish, lasting generally over about three years. There are certain attractions in that but I think it would be a pity to interfere in any way with the well established position of a well tried Committee like the Committee on Public Accounts. It cannot be denied that a Committee such as I suggest is a rational evolutionary development of the system.

Finally, I want to suggest that, apart from any consideration of the desirability of economies, this Committee would tend to increase parliamentary control, and that in itself is desirable. Control at the moment, as has been pointed out by Deputy Dillon, is a bureaucratic control. There is a continual outcry against that sort of thing and here is an opportunity for Parliament at least to try to get parliamentary control. Until it has tried and failed, it would be foolish to condemn the attempt.

My opinion is that parliamentary democracy is the best form of Governmentbut I do not believe that the bare fact of the democratic election of Parliament necessarily secures parliamentary democracy. That comes into being only when Parliament makes sure that it has immediate control over all the affairs of State, in short, when Parliament acts as a unified body and not merely as a meeting-place for political Parties. Necessarily, that also is a function of Parliament but that is not by any means the whole story. Parliamentary control of every possible aspect, particularly of the financial system, is to my mind essential if we are to have real parliamentary democracy. Control by the Department of Finance may be quite effective. Possibly there may not be economies to be made but Finance is, after all, a Department like the others.

Oh, no. There is an illusion. Finance is a Department like nothing else on God's earth. They are quite unique, God bless them.

It is a Department of State, staffed by civil servants.

Quite unique.

They may have special qualifications. I am not concerned with that. I am contrasting the Department with the elected Parliament. Its control, whatever it may be, is not a substitute for parliamentary control. So, on the two grounds, of the necessity for seeking every possible economy in administration and the necessity, if parliamentary democracy is to be a reality, that we should at least attempt to secure parliamentary control in this matter, I recommend the motion to the House.

I wish formally to second the motion.

Ministers of State in this country are flesh and blood. They receive for their services £1,525 per annum. There is a limit to the persecution to which they can be submitted in the discharge of their public duties if they are to continue to serve. We have in this country a Department of Finance, second in quality to none, but it is unique and any administrative Minister in any Government thatever ruled in this country in the last 30 years will tell the Deputy that, when he has treaded his way through the Department of Finance with his annual Estimate, the idea that he is then going to tread his way through a Committee of this House with the same Estimate, that Committee being fortified by a Department of Finance which is heel-tapping on the reluctant decisions which have been dragged from it, under the pressure of the imminent publication of the Book of Estimates, is an illusion.

Ministers of State in this country give more work for less pay than in any country in the world and I do not exclude Iceland or Nicaragua. There is a limit to what you can ask them to do and if there is any further burden put upon their back, outside of the cherubim and seraphim in Heaven, no further candidates will be found for ministerial employment in Ireland.

I taught Deputy Sheldon a good deal of what he knows about the procedure of the Committee on Public Accounts. When he was a neophyte I guided his faltering footsteps. With his experience of this House, does he ask himself to-day why was he invited to have his motion discussed with this Vote on Account? I will tell him: Because the Taoiseach wants a nice, large smelly red herring that he can deliver a long lecture on about five minutes past seven to fill the front page of the Irish Pressso that the poor dupes down the country will think that we were discussing methods of reviewing the Estimates in Dáil Éireann on the Vote on Account and not the scabrous, loathsome reputation of the present Government, acquired during their last two scandalous years.

I do not give a fiddle-de-dee about your proposal about a Committee. I think it is as irrelevant as a cracked fiddle on an occasion of this kind. It was brought in here to-day by the Government as a smelly red herring to divert the eyes, ears and noses of the Irish people away from their dilapidated and collapsing condition. That is the fact.

I know Deputy Sheldon will not takeit amiss if I speak frankly and trenchantly to him, but I know the text which has inspired his observations here to-day. I know it is the kind of proposal that in the British House of Commons, Dingle Foot, Sir Waldron Smithers, and the father of the House of Commons, that old warrior who has now gone to the Lords, might very well sponsor. It is as practical as a child's toy in the present context. It is as irrelevant as Die Valkyrie to our present circumstances.

Our present circumstances call urgently on Dáil Éireann, which is the appropriate authority, to consider the very imminent danger that threatens this country. Our present circumstances call to mind that there has been declared on our people by the Fianna Fáil Government a war as menacing and as malignant as the civil war or the economic war. We staggered through the first two, but so certainly as this is carried to a conclusion we will suffer a reverse which may well end the existence of this State as an independent nation. I warn you, and I think I will be in a position to demonstrate to you that the warnings I have given this House in the course of the last two years have largely come to pass, we are now faced with a menace which may well bring down the whole economic fabric of our country and, if it does, do not forget what happened to Newfoundland. Do not forget that 15 years ago Newfoundland and Ireland stood in precisely the same constitutional position.

You must be reading an old speech now.

I am not. I am recalling warnings that I gave to silly little men years ago and I am telling them that we are advancing rapidly to the very forecast that the silliest of these little men remembers hearing from me 15 years ago. Newfoundland and Ireland stood in precisely the same constitutional position. Ireland became a sovereign and independent republic. Newfoundland suffered its basic industry to be bankrupted by the folly of those who disregarded essential economic facts and has subsided into theposition of a province in the Federation of Canada. Do not forget, though the independence of this country may have been sustained, restored and maintained by blood, that precisely the same disaster can be brought upon us by economic developments such as those which blotted out the constitutional independence of Newfoundland 15 years ago.

That is the road we are travelling and I will show Dáil Éireann, with absolute certainty to those who are not too blind to see, the identity of the madness that this Government has embarked upon with that of the insanity which the Newfoundland Government embarked upon and destroyed their country's freedom, except in so far as it is prepared to be a free province of another nation.

Before I turn to that question, however, I want to refer to a matter which I gave notice that I intended to raise on the Adjournment last night, but which, out of proper consideration for the staff of the establishment of this House, I decided not to raise at 11.30 last night as they had to get home some time and I do not think it is reasonable, except on a matter of the gravest possible and urgent concern, that they should be detained in this House until midnight while we are ventilating our grievances. I therefore forbore raising that question with the Minister for Agriculture last night. I raise it now on the broad question of the Government's policy and administration. We have been informed that, by the authority of this House, the price of butter was increased. The satellites of the Government informed us that that increase was ordained in order to ensure an increased price for creamery milk in this country.

That certainly would be a matter for the main Estimate and not for the Vote on Account.

I should like to know what price the farmers will get for that milk. I gladly turn from that question to larger ones. What should we think in this House of a Finance Minister who flounced in yesterday to tell us that the £10,000,000 surplus that has been realisedon his Budget has been spent in his despite by his colleagues? That is a new philosophy of Government: that the Minister for Finance who told us he did not know where he would get the money to pay the civil servants, the Minister for Finance who, 12 months ago, told us that bankruptey was panting red-tongued at our door, the Minister for Finance who told us that no sacrifice was too great to call upon from the nation to prevent ruin overtaking us and that all his exertions were bent to the task of bringing our expenses within the ambit of our revenue, waltzes into Dáil Éireann on the 11th March in that same financial year, not to announce that he has resigned rather than consent to expenditure which he feels is inconsistent with the common good, not to announce that he has found himself in head-on contest with his colleagues in the Government and has said "No" but the Government overruled him and he had therefore resigned his responsibility, but to wring his hands and say that they had spent the whole £10,000,000 and sent him in here with 14 Supplementary Estimates to get ex post factoapproval from Dáil Éireann to spend the money that he told Dáil Éireann we had not got?

He professes to be proud of that achievement. Is not that what he has done? Has not past history shown us that many a Finance Minister felt that his duty as Minister, and the responsibility laid upon him to protect the Exchequer, compelled him to come before Parliament and say: "I cannot recommend to Parliament that which I believe to be wrong. My colleagues in the Government have overborne me, but they cannot make me do wrong and I therefore elected to withdraw and leave it to others to do what I am not prepared to recommend to the Parliament to which I am responsible?" But not so; the valiant Minister of to-day told the country that ruin and bankruptcy were upon us 12 months ago, and he tells the Dáil 12 months later that his colleagues spent what they should not have spent and though he did his best to stop them they spent it in his despite, and they sent him in here to get Dáil Éireannto approve. I do not approve it. I despise the Minister who comes here with such an assignment.

We have had recent evidence here of a different kind of Minister, a Minister for Finance who found the revenue that was necessary to provide the services that the Government required but who, in the recollection of his colleagues, was never afraid to say when the appropriate time came: "There is the limit which I am prepared to recommend to Dáil Éireann. Mine is the ultimate responsibility for finance and I will not advise the Government or Dáil Éireann to spend another penny until such time as Dáil Éireann has an opportunity of considering the matter in advance and of considering in association with the proposals made the methods of raising the revenue requisite to finance the proposition." Such a Minister for Finance is truly a precious asset to any State. The vacillating weakling who trims his sail to every breeze that blows and clamours for the opportunity of unloading his responsibility of reviewing the Estimates supported by his Department on to this Parliamentary Committee which is now suggested to him has a standing alibi for any future folly that Minister might seek to commit. What are we to think of a Minister for Finance who comes here and presents a Volume of Estimates deliberately fraudulent and designed and drafted to mislead Dáil Éireann? I challenge him to deny that.

The Book of Estimates reads upon its face £100,548,000 for the Supply Services. Within 24 hours he is obliged to confess that he has incorporated in that book £4,000,000 which his bungling colleague, the Minister for Health, blurts out they have decided to borrow. I ask any part of this House, in front of me or behind me, is there any precedent for a Minister for Finance presenting a Book of Estimates, introducing a Vote on Account, and 4 per cent. of the total Estimate is a sum which the Government has decided to borrow and not to charge upon the Supply Services? Is there any precedent for any Minister for Finance getting facilitiesto speak for as long as he pleases in introducing his Vote on Account and never mentioning that? Is there any precedent for the information being got by a side-wind from a bungling colleague who did not know he was letting the cat out of the bag? Is that fraud? Is that conduct of which a Minister for Finance of Dáil Éireann should be proud? I say it is fraud. I say it is shameful fraud and it is a disgrace to this Parliament that such a transaction should have come to light.

These Estimates are fraudulent and their purpose is to initiate in the country a universal atmosphere of apprehension that there is about to descend upon us an avalanche of taxation, oppression, grief and woe. There is no need for that. There is ample scope for remission in the financial year that lies ahead. Nothing can bring upon us what these Estimates are designed to make us fear but the continued presence of that incompetent man, the present Minister for Finance, in his present position.

We have £6 million in these Estimates provided for a subsidy on lime. Every penny of that has been approved in principle by the Marshall Aid administration now ended for recoupment out of the Grant Counterpart Fund and there is provision in the Extra Exchequer Grants at the end of the Department of Agriculture Vote showing that the Government anticipates receiving from that source a sum of £10,000 in respect of certain services which it intends to provide. I refer to page 105 of the Book of Estimates:—

"Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer:—

...transfers, subject to approval of United States authorities, from American Grant Counterpart Special Account, in respect of technical assistance (£10,000)."

I say that there is precisely similar provision to be made in respect of that item of £600,000 for lime plus £250,000 spent in the Estimate last year. We are told that in this Book of Estimates £160,000 is to be provided for the cold storage of butter. Here the Minister was detected in his chicanery before he came to make his speech and he sought to glide gracefully over this bysaying that circumstances had since changed. But another colleague, bungling in another direction, said that this charge is not to be produced from taxation for a windfall has come in from another source. I know it has not to be produced by honest taxation in this House. It is to be produced by levying it on the price of butter and it is lifted off the Estimates and on to butter; we are told that that relieves the taxpayer and we are to read the Estimates in the light of that relief.

I see that £360,000 worth of machinery for the land rehabilitation project is to be sold for £200,000 in the coming financial year. At this stage I suggest that the Fianna Fáil Party should stand up and cheer, all together.

The itemised figures are not before us at the moment. We are dealing with the Vote on Account and the policy of the Government. Discussion on the Estimates will arise later.

I am not discussing the items. I am discussing the dishonesty of the Minister.

The Deputy is discussing figures and the land rehabilitation scheme.

No. I am setting out one by one the charges in the indictment of fraud and the attempt to mislead the House and the country. The warning I now want to give is related to what was said here when the present Minister for Finance declared the policy of his Government in the 1952 Budget. We told him then that his Budget was designed to raise prices, to raise interest rates and that that would certainly involve and must involve an increase in wages albeit that increase might not compensate those who received it for the additional cost to which they were put; that it would involve an increase all round in the rates levied by local authorities on land and property consequent on the increased cost of maintaining public institutions; that it would result in an increase in the raw materials of the agricultural industry in that the freight charges and all other charges as they accrue would pass on to the things which farmers had to buy in order toproduce on the land; and, in addition to that, that the farmers, after paying the increased wages and the increased costs which would flow directly from this Budget, would have to meet for their own families in their own households the increased cost of tea, butter, tobacco and all the other commodities which are used every day and which were directly affected by the Budget. In fact, working farmers in this country will have to pay those charges on the double.

Our policy had been to stabilise prices, to subsidise essential commodities and take the fluctuations in cost on the Exchequer. That was combined with a policy of bringing down as far as we could the price of raw materials and commodities that farmers have to use, of bringing up the productivity of the land on which they lived and had to work, of securing for them markets as profitable and as extensive as diplomatic negotiation could procure, and depending on the belief that the consequential expansion of the national income would give us, from stable taxation rates, an expanding revenue to meet whatever charges would come in course of payment for current services and amortisation of any debt we deemed prudent to raise for the capital development of the country or provision of capital amenities consistent with the standard of living to which our people were entitled.

The consequence of that policy is written all over the pages of the Statistical Abstractthat was published only a week ago. Let me read for the House the consequence, in terms of trade, in volume of trade and in agricultural statistics, of three short years of that policy. Our total exports in 1947 were £38.5 million; in 1948, £47.8 million; in 1949, £58.9 million; in 1950, £72,000,000, if you include re-exports; in 1951, £81.5 million; and in 1952, over £100,000,000 sterling, for the first time in the recorded history of Ireland.

I know there are cynics who would denigrate that achievement by saying that that is to talk in terms of money. But how does the record speak in terms of volume? Between 1947 and1952 the volume of our domestic exports increased by 50 per cent. Is there a country in Europe can compare its performance with that of the farmers of Ireland? These are the farmers who we are now told by Fianna Fáil, are lazy, antediluvian, refusing to increase production, the despair of Governments, the constant concern of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who proposes to precipitate a revolution in agriculture in this country. He does not know what he is stirring up for himself. If he starts any revolution, Vesuvius will be nothing to what will go off under his posterior. Think of the impudence of upstarts in the Fianna Fáil Party addressing the agricultural community as if they were peons and serfs on the land of their own country. There is no agricultural community in Europe who have achieved what our farmers have achieved. There is no agricultural community in Europe which has staged such a come-back, from the dereliction and destitution wrought upon them by Fianna Fáil, to the staggering achievement they have to show in the year 1952. If we can help it, if we can drive Fianna Fáil to the country they will not get the chance of doing to our people for a third time what they so disastrously have done twice before.

Far from discussing academically the best method of furnishing the Department of Finance with further thumbscrews and jackboots for the persecution of the other Departments of State—their duty, put upon them by our statutes and most conscientiously done—our purpose here to-day is to consider what is the remedy for our present ills. I want to ask Oireachtas Éireann to agree with me that the remedy is not revolution, no tearing down of law, no crying of havoc, but the exercise of the constitutional right which resides in this House to tell that Government to go, to go now where we have a right to send them, lawfully, constitutionally and peacefully, to the people and let the people decide. I give this undertaking. If they will go and go now we will never challenge their right to form a Governmentin this country again. I say this deliberately, and I have a quarter of a century of political experience behind me: Go now and you will lose 25 seats in the constituencies of Ireland. You are hanging on to office by the votes of five men returned to this House to vote against you.

That does not arise.

On the Vote on Account, surely I have the right to tell them to get out. Have I not? I am telling them to get out and I am telling them they are hanging on by the votes of five men elected to vote against them. I am telling them: Let go of that hook and put your ship to sea. Do not try to whistle in the dark. The graveyard gapes for you—the political graveyard, of course—and no amount of whistling will convert it from what it is irrevocably destined to be. The gravestones are gravestones of the political lives of 25 members sitting on those benches. Go out and look at one another and speculate who are destined to be ghosts so soon. Look around you. Is there a single one amongst you who feels safe? Looking at the flock I see before me, I would not give sixpence for the chances of any one of you and I give two to one against any half-dozen of you, including your newest recruit, a decent kindly man.

Even these men who sit before me have come to realise that the hope of this country is increased agricultural production. There is nothing else to maintain the standard of living that our people have been led to expect from the Government they replaced. Do not let us forget that it is the proudest boast of all that when Fianna Fáil took over this country from us the report of the United Nations Committee on nourishment the world over was that the Irish people were eating more and eating better than any other people in the world. What Government ever had a better envoifor three years' work than what was published last week:—

"The Irish people are eating more and eating better than any people in the world".

I ask no better honour from public life than that a Government of which I was a member had brought about that, but bear in mind it carries the implication, that if there is to be increased agricultural production in a country which is eating more and eating better than any other country in the world, it means that every pound's and every shilling's worth of added agricultural production must be designed for export for our people are eating what they can and they cannot eat any more.

Thanks be to God!

Thanks be to God but do not forget the Government that did it. Do not forget that every one of you, every one of the Fianna Fáil Party, walked into the Lobby to defend the proposition that our people were eating too much and living too well and that by the Budget of 1952 they would be made to eat less and to live lower. These "Hear, hears!" sound strange to me when I look at the Deputy for Waterford, who campaigned against me, that our people were eating too much and eating too well and who wanted to come into Dáil Eireann to see that they did not eat so much. He deluded the voters of Waterford into sending him here for that purpose but let him go to Waterford now, when the result of that policy is visible and he will get his answer. It astonishes me to hear those who wrought that purpose and who walked through the Lobbies for that purpose say "Hear, Hear" to me when I say that our people are eating better and more than they ever ate before. There is no depth of hypocrisy or fraud to which Fianna Fáil and its satellites are not prepared to sink but there are 90,000 men and women in this country who have no work to do and who cannot be impressed by these spurious "Hear, Hears" of Fianna Fáil. They had work two years ago and their children and neighbours were not flying to Great Britain as they are flying now. They will not be deceived by the "Hear, Hears" of Fianna Fáil.

This is a grave evil but it is reparable. We could mend all that ifwe had the chance now, but there is an evil coming up the mountain which, if it matures, neither we nor any other Party in this House will be able to mend.

You got your chance.

And you helped us for a time.

We got our chance and we reached a level of achievement attained by no other democratic Government in the world. We did what we set out to do and we got for our people the highest standard of living enjoyed by any agricultural community in the world. That is what we set out to do. We made the farmers prosperous and we insisted that the wage of the agricultural worker should march step by step with growing prosperity in agriculture. Did we not do that?

Come now to what is coming. The Deputy will have his opportunity in Wicklow very soon. We will be there on the 22nd March and we shall be ready with a candidate. Let him come down and sit on the fence, or waggle on the wire. But let us not trouble about him. He will look grotesque enough during the three weeks' campaign in Wicklow. As I have said, additional agricultural production must be for export. I wonder does this House know that if costs continue to increase as they are at present increasing, agricultural production in this country for export will become unprofitable? Should that come to pass, look you now in time at the dread results for this country. What will pay for all the goods we import on which cities and towns, like Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Dundalk, Sligo and Ballina depend for their existence? What will pay for the imports used to produce the income which provides earnings for the doctor, the lawyer, the trade unionist, the civil servant and every other element in our community? There is no fund but that derived from the exports of agricultural industries, and the day when the export of agricultural produce becomes impossible, on that daythe fund will begin to dwindle. As it dwindles the individual farmer will suffer hardship but the hardship suffered by the wage earner and the salary earner will be double, treble or quadruple the injury sustained directly by the farmers who, the more they produce, the greater their loss will be. Wages in the agricultural industry have gone up 7/6 per week on the minimum wage but the tragedy is that the agricultural worker who is getting 7/6 more from the farmer is worse off now than he was before the Budget of 1952. Rates have gone up, because every institution in Ireland has had its costs forced up by the cost of everything it uses to maintain a modest standard of comfort for its inmates. These institutions cannot come to the Dáil for a Supplementary Estimate. They must go to the county council to get that. If they get it, the farmer has to pay additional rates to meet it.

The world price for fertilisers threatened to come down. Did we welcome that and say: "Here is relief in any case"? No; our Parliament put a duty of 20 per cent. on superphosphates of lime lest our farmers should enjoy that relief in the presence of other rising costs. Freight charges are up, and the farmer has to meet them. Out of the diminishing fund left to him, he has to meet the weekly bill for the commodities consumed by himself and his family in the home. I ask the House to face the fact of what that has resulted in. Do Deputies realise that the reason we are not exporting butter is because we are no longer able, economically, to produce butter in Ireland? We cannot sell butter abroad because our costs of production for butter are too high. We will never sell butter abroad—never.

Not with milk at 1/- a gallon.

See. The sage is here to lead us illuminated in the higher flights of abstract economics. The concrete fact is that we cannot export butter and that we will never export it again.

When did we last export butter economically?

Deputy Allen and Deputy Cogan might, with advantage, withdraw to the Lobby and dance round one another with those pleasant paradoxes for the rest of the evening. I am concerned with the vital facts. The export of eggs has become uneconomic.

Will you tell us when butter was last exported at an economic price? Give us the date? Was it not back around 1924?

The export of eggs has become uneconomic. Consider what that means. The export of fowl has become uneconomic. Stop and think what that means. I warn this House —and I know whereof I speak. The export of bacon and ham and pork is just in the balance. If the costs of production in that branch of the agricultural industry go up another 5 per cent., the pig population of this country will melt away. Stop and think a moment what this means. It means that you are left with cattle and sheep. There is not a farmer in this House who does not know that, during the war, the sheep population of this country vanished from the face of our country through a complexity of circumstances. I am not going to go into those circumstances now but they could easily recur and, if they should, you are driven back to cattle. Stop there, and think a moment. A great many people in this country thought we had discovered in the United States of America a Golconda wherein to sell prime beef. I was looked down upon in this House when I sounded a note of warning and said that there is no permanent market there and that we should not depend on the United States market for prime beef—manufactured beef, perhaps, but prime beef, no. I was told I was a saboteur, a merchant of pessimism. What has come to pass? We are out of the United States market for prime beef— and we are out of it by competition. We cannot produce it in Ireland at a price the Americans are prepared to pay. By the mercy of God's Providence, we have the 1948 Trade Agreement to fall back upon. We have the other party to that agreement in a vicefrom which they cannot escape—no thanks to Fianna Fáil but thanks to our Government.

There is not a Deputy in this House who does not know that all that stands between the live-stock industry of this country and crisis is the trade agreement we made in 1948 which holds the other party as no agreement between two nations of such disparity in power ever held a second party before. But let us not rest to the point of folly on a false sense of security engendered by that trade agreement. If costs should further arise, agricultural exports from Ireland will decline.

I warn this House that, should that come to pass, there will unroll before us a dialectic of development identical with that which brought Newfoundland to its present sorry pass. Newfoundland woke one morning to discover that, by the dissipation of its resources on irrelevancies, its great fishing industry had become inefficient and uneconomic. Having exhausted every domestic resource, a deputation went to London to ask the British Treasury to accept Newfoundland as a temporary charge. The price they paid was that the Treasury in London named their Government. When the period of probation was passed, they were told to choose between hoeing their own row or making the inevitable and irrevocable surrender—and the best minds in the world advised them and told them that there was no choice available. The truth was that they could not choose to hoe their own row for they had not the means of hoeing it. They had only one choice and that was to purchase survival by the surrender of independence. They made it with what grace they could to an understanding partner who took them—the stranger— into their house and sheltered them from the consequences of their own folly. This historic nation has no house where it can, with dignity or decency, seek shelter from its own folly. This nation has no refuge to which it can repair. This nation must survive free or perish in shame. Do not let us forget that no measure of human courage, no readiness to make sacrifices on the part of the masses of the people, can replace the consequences of economicfolly imposed by a Government which is obsessed not only by vanity and folly but by a vacuous and shameful desire to denigrate the records of its predecessor.

This last, then, I want to say, in conclusion. Do not take up this Book of Estimates, as this debate concludes, and ask us the question: "What, then, must we do?" I want to answer that question now. There is only one thing Fianna Fáil can do to save this country, and that is to get out. We have no other advice to give you.

Why did you not stay in office when you were there?

We think you are incompetent, dishonest, and that you are prepared to resort to any fraud for Party ends. We acknowledge that as of to-day you are the legitimate Government of this country and have the right to govern. We acknowledge the tragic fact that, so long as the busted flush of four Woolworth diamonds and one bleeding heart is still in your hands, you have a right to govern.

Why did you dissolve the Dáil?

To get rid of you.

Remember by what authority you govern Ireland. Remember that no Government of Ireland from Castlereagh down to to-day, ever ruled this country by a baser or more shameful title. We told those who claimed the right to rule by such a spurious title in past times to go—and we had right to take arms against them. The tragedy of to-day is that anyone who is faithful to Ireland must, if called on, defend our Government against anyone who would seek to overthrow it with any weapon other than the votes of the people recorded in the ballot boxes. It is apt and good that we should all reflect with gratefulness to Providence that we have arrived at the milestone in our history when that is true and when our bitterest grievance must be that we are proud to defend the institutions that make yourrotten Government secure. We have a right to say to you in this House—and we say it now—that there is nothing you can do as a Government to repair the evil that you have wrought in the past two years. There is no advice that we have to give you except: "Go!" Go now, and take the rabble and the remnant by which you scrambled into office with you, and God grant that the Irish people will wipe them out and send you back decimated down to the stature which properly belongs to you.

Behind this monstrous anger and bluff from the Minister——

Coming events cast their shadows before.

Behind, as I say, this monstrous anger and bluff there lies the bitterness of disappointed men. The bluff is all very well—it is easy to cast one's mind back not many months ago when they themselves were unable to maintain their Government and unable to agree amongst themselves: when they were unable to project a policy that had any future for the people of this country and, above all, unable to make any serious decisions in regard to finance which would enable this country to pursue the path towards prosperity—to overcome the difficulties which every country in the world has had to face in the last two years, and to do that in a manner which would bring the least difficulties and the least unhappiness to our people.

We can well recall some of Deputy Dillon's previous speeches when he warned the country of the frightening effects of producing peat, and of the frightening effects of producing beet and wheat. We can recall many of his wild exaggerations, made in 1947, when he prophesied that he could make an agricultural paradise of this country overnight. The people of this country, who are sane and honestly try to debate economic issues, can judge between what I believe to be bluff and proper honest talk.

I shall mention one or two examples of Deputy Dillon's exaggerations. He tried to claim that the high consumptionof food which this country enjoys is due to the actions of the Coalition Government. Of course, if the Deputy looked at the figures for food consumption in 1947 he would know that we were at that time one of the highest consumers of food in the world. He would find, from an examination made by doctors of repute and renown into malnutrition in this country, that malnutrition was mercifully confined to a very tiny section of our people, and that, on the whole, our people had sufficient to eat in spite of all the difficulties we experienced during a world war, and in spite of the fact that we were virtually unable to pursue our constructive policy for a number of years owing to war conditions. Naturally, of course, food consumption was high in 1951. In Deputy Dillon's view that must be due entirely to the effects of his Government. That is quite typical of Deputy Dillon.

The same thing has occurred in connection with the figures which he used to give us for agricultural production. He always took, as the base year, a year of unexampled bad weather, and then proceeded to take credit for the good weather for the purpose of showing that there had been some increase in production one or two years later. He tried to deduce from that that all the work of the Coalition Government was miraculous in its effects.

We know very well that the farmers have had some measure of prosperity during the last three years, but the reason for that has nothing to do with Deputy Dillon or the Coalition Government. The reason is simply this, that prices here and in every other country in the world went up by 40 per cent. between 1947 and 1952, so that no matter how bad a Government could be, at least some of the farming community would inevitably make an increased profit and find some measure of prosperity.

I should like to remind the House, in connection with this vaunted boast of Deputy's Dillon's—of all his talk and bluster and all his promises—of what the figures actually showed, when they became available, in regard to agricultural production. What did they show? That production in the lastyear in which Deputy Dillon was in office was about the same as it was in 1939 and as it was in 1945, after five years of war. Despite the absence of fertilisers and of machinery, all that he had done was to restore production from the low levels of 1946 and 1947, when there was bad weather, to the 1945 figures. It does not matter how Deputy Dillon may twist the figures, or how he may talk about gross production or net production.

These are the figures, and all the talk by Deputy Dillon is quite typical of him. He takes a vastly excessive credit for agricultural results for which he had no responsibility. He has even tried to tempt the country councils into the idea that the rates were going up solely because of reasons for which the present Government would have responsibility. He mentioned an increase in food prices. I wonder is he prepared to recommend taxation to restore the subsidies so that that element in the rates can be kept down? What tax would he propose or suggest to restore the subsidies if he had the chance, and had some part in our very serious financial responsibilities?

Deputy Dillon made the suggestion that, in some way or other, agricultural exports were imperilled by the present Government. He has tried to panic the people, to the immense disadvantage of the country, into the idea that our exports were about to collapse due to the present Government's policy. What are the facts in regard to that? In the last year in which Deputy Dillon was in office, the only main branch of agriculture that was prospering was the cattle industry. The number of pigs was going down by thousands per month; the number of poultry declined by about 2,000,000 compared with the previous year; tillage was declining; the whole policy in regard to feeding stuffs was confused, and apparently had so deceived the farmers that they knew not where they were. Deputy Dillon had promised them dirt-cheap maize, and said it would remain at a level price even though the £ was devalued. Deputy Dillon confused the farmers in that way. He promised them and guaranteedthem a market for oats and potatoes, but he never fulfilled that promise. The Government of which he was a member was driven into doing so when Deputy Dillon was absent in America.

Every single figure that can be produced by the Statistics Office during Deputy Dillon's term of office shows that, in 1951, there was a growing crisis in regard to agricultural products other than cattle. That was the position, but, mercifully, it has been restored to some degree by the present Minister. In regard to pigs, it has been restored; in regard to eggs, there has been some measure of restoration, while in regard to tillage the rot that set in has at least been stopped. I believe that, at the end of the present season, we should be able to say, in regard to the sugar beet industry, that the position there is more satisfactory than it was last year. We know that Fine Gael propaganded against the growing of beet.

I think that I have demolished, to some extent, the absurd exaggerations of Deputy Dillon in regard to what he claimed he could do and to what his Government did. If Deputy Dillon can prove to me and can show that there was an increase in agricultural production over and above that which we left in 1945, I will be content to go very far in making the admission to him that he was right, but he cannot do that because his own Government produced certified figures of production which show that there was no genuine increase in production during the period he was in office. As I have said, the farmers did make some money because of a rise in agricultural prices for which Deputy Dillon had no more responsibility than the man in the moon. There had been a rise in the price of agricultural produce. That happened all over the world, and was not due to anything which the Coalition Government had done.

Deputy Costello made a speech, in which there was, if not a mild suggestion of panic, at least a mild suggestion of coming disaster for the country. I think that there, again, Deputy Costello was indulging in wild exaggeration, because he was trying toconceal the colossal error in judgment that he and his colleagues made on the occasion of the last Budget when they foretold that we would produce a surplus and that, therefore, the taxation imposed was of a kind deliberately meant to prevent people from spending money, to prevent people from buying goods, to prevent people from buying food. The colossal error of judgment he made at that time was obviously the reason for the wild and windy talk that we have heard from him.

We are bound to remind Deputy Costello that most of the burdens faced by this country through higher taxation were imposed upon us by the Coalition Government. If the people are facing staggering taxation and if taxation has reached its limits, it is because of the unregulated conduct of financial affairs by the Coalition Government during the last year of their office, when their Ministers worked in water-tight compartments, when there was no proper control of spending, when there was no planning of spending either current or capital. The result, as everybody knows, is that we were left very heavy bills to pay and we had only two alternatives.

We had the alternative of making such drastic cuts in current expenditure that the result would have been harmful to our people and, above all, would have been harmful to those with the lowest incomes. If you have to make gigantic cuts in expenditure in any Budget, naturally and inevitably you will hurt those in the lower income brackets because it is only in connection with big services, such as social welfare or health or with services for the development of the country such as agriculture, that one can make really enormous cuts. The cuts would have had to be enormous if we were to discharge the bills left to us by the Coalition and at the same time avoid an increase in taxation.

We will not let the people hear this debate take place without reminding them once more that a very great part of the bill we have to pay was devised by the Coalition Government. At least we can say that Deputy McGilligan,when he was Minister for Finance gave every warning of the difficulties that would arise. He made in fact all the prophecies to be found in an exaggerated form later in the Central Bank Report. Deputy McGilligan himself wrote a rather mild version of the Central Bank Report which was later, I think, exaggerated and given too great a degree of emphasis by the directors of the Central Bank when they published their report. Nevertheless, he gave the major warning. He warned what would happen if expenditure went on rising and if agricultural production did not increase.

Did you agree with the Central Bank Report?

I am coming to that.

Mr. O'Higgins

He does, of course.

The House will hear in very full detail all about the Central Bank Report.

I will be very pleased to hear it.

There was this wild, uncontrolled spending. There was no real planning. There was no foresight on the part of the last Government that they were running into difficulties occasioned by matters outside their control. The higher prices rose, the more credit they let loose on this country by every ill-advised means. They broke every rule of modern economics. They, who now parade as the ideal economists and who pretend to follow the doctrines of the late Lord Keynes and of all the other people who rather like to run Socialist Governments, where the state takes a very large part in injecting vast sums of money into the economy or in withholding large sums of money, did not have any real theory behind their economic policy; they did not have any real economic policy. If they had, they would have followed the first golden rule that, when prices are rising very rapidly because of a world economic inflation, you avoid pouring additional money into circulation by not balancing a Budget and by other unwise policies and that you wait until prices havereached their limit and then, if they start going down, you start applying some of these hitherto untried remedies for unemployment and for all the difficulties that beset mankind.

What we had to face was, not a Government with a socialist policy and not a Government with a good laissez faire policy but a Government with merely a policy of confusion, due entirely to the fact that Ministers were unable to agree amongst themselves and that there were Ministers, such as the former Minister for External Affairs, who, so far as one can judge by his speeches, would print banknotes ad liband, also Ministers, such as the former Minister for Finance, who gave all the warnings to his own Government which should have made them try to accept some of the burden for themselves that we have had to face since in putting the economy of the country to rights.

I never thought I would hear such irresponsible stuff as I have just heard from any Minister.

That is my explanation. No matter what the Deputy may say, it was the irresponsible conduct of the Coalition Government which caused the major part of our difficulties. We have had to face these difficulties and to carry on the nation's finances as best we can. It is, of course, the oldest cry in the world of an inefficient manager of business: "Let costs rise more and more. Let there be losses in trade. It will all come right in the end. Carelessness will pay dividends." That is the oldest cry in the world of the inefficient manager of a business, of the dishonest manager of a business.

We had to face all these difficulties. We had to face the taking over of an economic régime where there had been a manager in charge who had been forced into exactly that kind of observation and that kind of practice. What we had to face and the policy we adopted has nothing whatever to do with following a Tory policy, following British policy or following any specific economic policy beyond that ofrestoring a balance to the Budget, of making ends meet and of making quite sure that the economic reputation of this country was maintained and that we could proceed with our own programme of national development without being faced with such financial difficulties as would prevent us from so doing.

We heard nothing from Deputy Costello, in fact, as to what he would propose to do even if he were placed in charge of the Government of this country. He had nothing but a policy of wailing despair. He did not make a single concrete proposal for reducing costs. He did not make a single concrete proposal by which we could reduce the cost of materials which have gone up for reasons beyond our control. He made no suggestion for a solution of the difficulty we face that agricultural prices are high and that they might bear hardly on the consumer, but that we simply cannot find the money with which to restore subsidies.

I would like to challenge any member of Fine Gael or the inter-Party Government to answer this question: How are they to deal with the trimming of the Estimates that will be required if taxation is to remain at its present level and at the same time reimpose the subsidies when the subsidies would at the moment cost 2/-in the £ on income-tax, 2½d. on every pint of stout, 3d. on every 20 cigarettes and 8d. on the gallon of petrol in addition to the taxes on these commodities? If any member of the Opposition would get up and say: "This is the solution of the difficulty —restore the subsidies and we will move a resolution reimposing that taxation," he will at least be an honest man, but we have had no such proposal from Deputy Costello. Deputy Costello has talked vaguely about the new system of finance in this Government, but he made no specific proposal for getting over the difficulties we face at this moment which are that Government costs have gone sky-high, that services must be maintained and that at the same time the cost of living has gone up in this and every other country.

I waited with interest to hear what Deputy Costello would say, whether he had any real positive policy which would get us over our difficulties. He referred vaguely to the balance of payments, and he suggested that unemployment could be brought about by causing the adverse trade balance to be cut off completely. What is the position? There is still an adverse trade balance. We have not entirely remedied the situation. We do not think the situation should be entirely remedied, but we can make sure that when our property is sold in Great Britain the result will be the import of machinery, to produce goods for the people of this country.

I do not know whether it is necessary at this point to enter into a long dissertation on this question of the balance of payments. I should have thought that during the last year at least some members of the House would have learned the facts. The facts are that you just cannot bring in money in pounds from Great Britain and hand it out to the workers of this country. The money can only come in goods which are imported into this country. Unless you can be sure when you are encouraging the repatriation of assets that the goods which come in are the right kind of goods, that they will help to produce more and enable us to become less dependent on the goods of other countries and to export more, what you are doing is encouraging the spending of money to no purpose and the reduction of our trade reserves abroad to our great disadvantage.

Nobody can deny that we cannot just bring the moneys back, put them on the train at Euston, land them at Dún Láoghaire, and hand them over to the Minister for Finance to spend. It does not work that way. It can only work by the sale of goods by Great Britain to this country. The view of our Party is that we are perfectly willing to make use of these assets so long as we can be certain that the results will be to produce more for the people of this country, to improve the national estate, and not merely to dissipate the money to no goodpurpose. I thought Deputy Costello had by now learned what our attitude was. Apparently, however, he still likes to pretend that you can allow assets to be repatriated without any kind of control, and the result will always be a good one. That is far from the case.

It might be as well to remind Deputies that there is not a very great volume of these assets left. People with woolly financial minds like to talk about £400,000,000 being invested in England and abroad without realising that as against that we owe money to countries abroad to the tune approximately of £250,000,000 and that our real credit abroad, our credit for trading purposes, the credit that enables us to buy huge quantities of goods from countries to whom we sell nothing, depends on the net amount that we own, not on the fact that we have large investments in Great Britain, because against these large investments must be measured, inevitably, the money that we owe abroad.

For us, as for every country, what counts for trading purposes is the net amount, and the net amount is round or about the £130,000,000 or £150,000,000 mark. I have not the exact figure. But certainly one can say that if we are to encourage the repatriation of assets we want to feel quite certain that it comes back to us in the form of goods which will help production and that we are not merely removing one of the important things for the life of the country, the power to trade abroad without difficulty, the power to have temporary deficits in our trade, and the power to pay customers all over the world without having to make foreign loans or to borrow temporarily. That is one of the sheet anchors of our independence.

All we ask is that if we are going to make use of these reserves they should be used wisely and for the benefit of the people of the country. In fact, about three-quarters of the talk about the adverse balance of payments on the part of the Opposition is just sheer political claptrap designed to deceive those people who have too much to do to make prolonged and detailed studiesinto the very difficult question of the adverse balances abroad and the whole of the conditions which have affected our trading since the war.

We have heard Deputy Costello implying by what he said that this Government are entirely responsible for the increase in the cost of living. I suppose we may have to repeat ad nauseamthat half of the increase in the cost of living since the outbreak of the Korean war took place during the lifetime of the last Government and that to charge us with being responsible for the increased prices of materials required for war purposes is ludicrous. Are we to be responsible, for example, for the increase in the price of timber in the two years from October, 1950, to October, 1952, of from 64 to 70 per cent., of the corresponding increase in the prices of copper and lead? Is the Taoiseach to be charged with and made responsible for the increased costs which affect the whole life of the community in such things as housing or the rate at which houses can be built? Are we to be made responsible for them? Is it not a fact that a great deal of the increase in the cost of living took place in the time of the Coalition Government and that the subsequent increases were due to difficulties which it would be impossible for us to overcome, with one exception, that if the financial affairs of this State had been better regulated and if expenditure had been more controlled and planning had been on a more long-term basis, it might have been possible for us to avoid taking the drastic action we had to take in connection with subsidies or, alternatively, costs might not have gone up so much or the taxation increases might have been more limited.

We have been charged with wanting the people to eat less. We are still one of the highest consumers of food in the world. In spite of the increase in the cost of food, at a very recent date the consumption of bread and butter had gone up in this country subsequent to the Budget increases. We appreciate that the cost of living is sky high in this and every other country. In spite of the difficultieswhich housewives are facing, the consumption of food so far as we know has not been noticeably affected by the Budgetary policy of the Government. One of the reasons for that is the compensation afforded by us to people with large families through the increase in the children's allowances and the compensation afforded by us by the Social Welfare Act. We were aware that there would have to be increases in wages. Increases in wages were foretold by the Minister for Industry and Commerce at the time of the Budget and there has been some compensation in that way.

Mr. O'Higgins

Including the Civil Service.

I am trying to get away from some of the exaggerations of Deputy Costello and Deputy Dillon. They did not really produce any policy or propose any solution in regard to taxation. I think that one should try at least to initiate an argument on the financial position where the debate was not based purely on political abuse and exaggeration.

I would like to hear that.

I have had to answer these wild charges. I thought it would have been possible to say something constructive and not merely something designed purely to induce panic in the people, but designed rather to help the people to consider the present situation properly. The people will have to make up their minds to one of two things; either the present Government led by the Taoiseach is entirely responsible for everything that has happened since the outbreak of the Korean war and that we are an isolated community cut off from outside sources and able to pursue our way independently or else make up their minds and agree with our view that we are facing a situation which has taken place all over the world.

There is nothing unique in the high living costs or the difficulties facing our people, except to the extent that we disagree as to whether the Government in operation from the outbreak of the war in Korea did all that wasrequired of it to prevent the crisis from becoming more serious than it need be. As regards the general situation, the situation here is the same as in other countries. I do not propose to bore the House by quoting from international documents, because I noticed the Opposition members became very restive on the last occasion that I did that. Every economic international organisation of repute in the world reported similar economic conditions everywhere.

There was a false boom all over Europe and all over a great part of the world. That boom was caused by the rapid growth of rearmament and a vast amount of unco-ordinated, un-strategic and unjustified stockpiling, not only of commodities essential in time of war but of every commodity in which it was anticipated the price would rise. That condition was universal. Increased prices were universal. The difficulties faced by the present Government, apart from those foisted on us by the Coalition Government are the same as the difficulties that have been faced by almost every other country. The rate of interest has increased in almost every other country in Europe. Denmark is a country which bears some comparison with our own in regard to its economy. There the rate of interest was as high as 5½ per cent. as far back as November, 1951. Governments all over the world have found it difficult to make ends meet. Current expenditure has gone up. Taxation has been increased. At least four countries in Western Europe are practising economies similar to our own. Some of those countries have Socialist Governments. They have been forced either to abolish completely or to reduce subsidies for exactly the same reason as we have had to reduce them; they could no longer afford to pay for their services and pay the taxation required for subsidies. Subsidies were a war-time measure to ensure that everybody would have enough money in a time of rising prices to purchase a guaranteed amount of foodstuffs. Subsidies have been reduced or abolished in other countries, includingthose with Socialist Administrations, Administrations more advanced in their economic views and in their desire to control the community even more severely than, for example, Deputy MacBride would want to control the community if he were allowed to put into operation all the strange policies he advocates.

Every country, with the exception of about two, has had difficulties with its balance of payments. Practically every country has found itself unable to pay America or some other country for goods purchased and has had to constrict or reduce imports. The lucky thing about us is that we still have these trade reserves and we have not had to use artificial measures such as those adopted in Australia where overnight imports were cut in half by a single stroke of the pen by the Minister for Finance. These things have been happening in countries that were undeveloped like our own, countries that remained neutral during the war, countries such as Denmark where the cost of defence until recently was not a very great part of its economic life, countries with conditions comparable to ours, countries that have been devastated by war. Indeed, the same conditions apply in countries that still enjoy a huge measure of Marshall Aid or mutual security aid in the form of gifts from the United States.

What is happening has happened before in the history of the world. No doubt it will happen again. There finally was a buyers' strike. Prices went up so much that we had the temporary prosperity of an entirely impermanent kind that results always from increasing prices. Now the same reports speak of a buyer's market where people are holding back from buying because they anticipate that prices will go down.

Instead of exaggerating the difficulties and prophesying disaster, the Opposition would spend its time to greater advantage if they told the people that it is unlikely that there will be any great break in prices because of the new post-war situation and because conditions are different from those that obtained after World War I. Therewill be a reduction in prices and a certain stabilisation of prices but it is not much use people postponing buying in the hope there will be a real break and a really enormous reduction in prices. We cannot be sure but we can only say that certain commodities have been reduced. Building material prices have gone down. There may be reductions in the prices of certain very costly metals.

The agricultural community all over the world is fairly well organised. It would be difficult now for any one country to flood another country with agricultural produce at low prices. There are now international cartels and organisations for the maintenance of prices. America is the one country that could cause a complete collapse in agricultural prices if it flooded the market with its surplus, but there is a price support plan in operation at the present time. There is no sign of any great reduction in prices and it would be better for the Opposition to advise the people to take a sane view of the present situation and to realise there cannot be any great reduction in the near future. That would be better than wild exaggeration, accusations and suggestions that we are deliberately inviting disaster.

Does the Minister say that the people have the purchasing power but are not using it?

I have not said that. We are facing difficult times and the people are severely affected by the high cost of living. Taxation has reached its limit. I believe prices are levelling off. I am repeating in another form what the Minister for Industry and Commerce has said recently to encourage the idea that prices are becoming stabilised. The position is an interesting one and I am looking forward to hearing constructive speeches from the Opposition members on the point that the rise in prices has come to an end after an unbroken period of 17 years. This Government which, by Providence, is in office at the present time is facing a situation that no Government had to face since the final drop in prices during the world depressionsometime round 1934, 1935 and 1936, a depression somewhat reinforced by the economic war here from 1936. From 1936 onward—I think that was the operative date—prices slowly rose.

We are now facing an entirely new situation, a levelling off of prices for the first time in a great number of commodities. We managed to maintain the cost of living in a very stable condition from 1943 to 1946 but largely through subsidies and price controls but even during that time certain commodities were going up in price. They were controlled by artificial means. Now we are facing something new about which we have all to think anew, the ending of a very long epoch of rising prices. Although agricultural prices are still rising a little and although they rose last year 10 per cent. over what they were the year before it would seem the topmost level of prices has been really reached unless some new crisis occurs such as a devaluation of the £, another war scare, a fresh re-armament drive or some other circumstances. If present conditions remain the same we are facing an entirely new position.

It would not be easy for any Government to run this country because if prices level off the yield from taxes inevitably levels off and the amount that can be collected in taxes is limited as soon as prices stop rising and the purely artificial prosperity created by the fact that people can buy something and sell it at a higher price later on, ends.

The fact that that situation is ending is bringing new problems for the Government to face and it is a far more important factor in this debate than any of the nonsense that has been talked so far by Deputy Costello and others.

I should think so.

It is far more important. As the Minister for Industry and Commerce indicates, the price rises have not yet stopped because there are still wage adjustments proceeding. There have been reductions in the price of certaincommodities and one or two others have moved up in price. We must always depend on whatever action the British Minister for Agriculture takes in regard to the prices he is prepared to pay, to make the British more self sufficing in their food. If he chooses to increase the prices to the agricultural community in Great Britain it inevitably has an effect there. I cannot go further than suggesting a period of price stabilisation. It involves matters of very great importance to this country, among other things, the more urgent need for increased agricultural production than has been the case for 17 years. For 17 years prices slowly rose. For 17 years farmers could make some part of their profits from the rise in the price of any agricultural commodity from year to year. As soon as that situation ends the only way existing profits can be maintained is by an increase in the volume of production, an increase in the quantities produced by farmers. We are now running into that situation when all that will become a matter of very great importance.

Are you satisfied you can solve all the problems you are referring to by operating within the present system?

Unlike some Deputies in the Opposition, no sane member of any Government would promise to solve all the economic problems of any country. I do not promise to solve them either. All I can say is that we will do our best.

You only promise at election times.

I want to deal with one matter which has caused very great misunderstanding among the people of this country. I have listened ad nauseamto speeches of members of the Opposition suggesting that the reason for high prices here, the reason for high taxation and the reason for the difficulties we are going through has been the fact that we followed slavishly the restrictive policy of the Central Bank shown in their report of 1951. I want to repeat here what I have said before in this House, thatyou could pick up any number of Central Bank reports from any number of countries—written from 1949 to 1951 —and countries where the directors have been appointed by Socialist Governments. In some cases, if you blacked out the name of the country, you would really imagine they could apply to this country. Central Bank reports from several other countries of Western Europe are almost identical. The only difference in the warnings they give are purely those relating to some local circumstances. I do not know what action Governments took in all these countries in supporting the policies advocated by the Central Bank. Some of them adopted one or other section of the policy; some of them followed one or more of the various theses given to them. However, I know that, in the case of the present Government, we did regard the policy advocated by the Central Bank as over-restrictive.

Mr. O'Higgins

You swallowed every single word of the report.

The Deputy is going to listen to the facts. We are going to throw the truth back in his teeth.

Mr. O'Higgins

You swallowed every single word.

The Deputy is going to be given the lie so far as that is concerned. The suggestion has been made that we slavishly followed the policy of the Central Bank as advocated in their report for 1951. It is about time that that particular lie was exposed and exposed for good. We did nothing of the kind. We simply took the advice of the Central Bank Report that there were inflationary conditions operating in this country as in others, that there was a danger of the inflation getting out of hand. We looked at the recommendations and this is precisely what we did about them.

The first recommendation was that it was advisable that large elements of below the line expenditure of a capital kind would be better paid out of taxation. We did not follow that policy. We paid out of borrowed money virtuallyfor every single service that could be paid out of borrowed money. That particular recommendation of the Central Bank was not adopted.

The second recommendation was that the public works programme should be drastically curtailed. The public works programme was not curtailed.

Mr. O'Higgins

What about the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

I said the total public works programme was not curtailed.

I can give proof of that later. The Opposition do not like to hear these facts. There was no restriction in the public works programme so far as capital expenditure was concerned and if the Deputies care to look at the expenditure on capital account they will find in regard to these services there was no cutting down.

The next statement that was made was that there should be restriction of State investment. I shall proceed to give quite clear proof later that there was no restriction of State investment, that huge amounts of capital were spent and that in fact we ran the original Fianna Fáil programme of capital development at a much faster rate than it was ever run by the Opposition during their last full year of office.

The next suggestion that was made was that there should be a Budget surplus. We decided it would be sufficient to balance the Budget. No arrangements or proposals were made for having a surplus.

The next proposal that was made was that it might be well to eliminate subsidies. We eliminated portion of the subsidies and maintained another portion. We did what the Central Bank did not recommend; we gave compensation to a large number of people in the form of increased social services allowances. The Central Bank advocated at that time that there should be a State induced or State encouraged standstill in wages. We made it clear that there would be some compensation in regard to wage levelsas a result of the Budget proposals. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was more clear in his observations on this subject.

There was one suggestion of a very amazing character, that we should sterilise the American Loan Counterpart Fund. It was quite impossible to do that as the fund had to be used to discharge obligations which we incurred with the passing of the former Government. The other proposals made were that we should work for better exports and exports did increase during the last year. We adopted that proposal. It was a constructive, positive proposal. We did what we could to foster exports and there has been an improvement in exports since the time that report was published. The report also recommended further encouragement towards savings and I am glad to say that since the Budget the gross amount deposited in the Dublin Savings Bank and in Saving Certificates actually showed an increase over the corresponding period of 1950 in spite of the difficulties that were being faced by the people because of the higher cost of living.

I want to make these matters quite clear because we have heard for too long that we are supposed to have carried out every one of the dictates of the Central Bank whereas, as I have said, in regard to most of them we thought their policy was somewhat exaggerated and that their recommendations were in the nature of an extreme warning. We proceeded to carry on our own Fianna Fáil policy of reconstruction; we proceeded to borrow considerable sums of money to carry on the policy which the Party had advocated for many years, a policy which was partly adopted by the Coalition Government but in regard to which there was considerable muddling on their part and a great deal of exaggerated boasting. There has been a very large capital expenditure by the present Government. The result can be shown in some very simple figures which will be very unpleasant for the Opposition to hear.

Mr. O'Higgins

One result has been 90,000 unemployed.

Deputies will have to be patient and listen to the figures.

Tell us something about the 90,000 unemployed.

A number of projects, all of which we planned, had been left over by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1947 for the improvement of the national stake. Planning for these projects by the Coalition Government was badly mismanaged and the money expended was badly spent.

I do not think they organised expenditure on these Fianna Fáil projects in the best way. I do not think, they planned the resumption of Fianna Fáil projects in the best way but, nevertheless, it was very hard for us to make any alteration when we resumed office because any alteration in the drastic capital expenditure programme would have involved the transfer of workers and other difficult problems which I think would have been insuperable. We have speeded up our own programme and the following has been the result. We shall take the year 1950, the last full year of the inter-Party Government and compare the results of that year with the results of our capital programme in 1952. This is going to be very unpleasant for members of the Opposition. The number of houses completed in 1952 as compared with the number in 1950 was up by 8 per cent. The number of housing grants allocated in 1952 was up by 26 per cent. The number of new schools, the building of which was in progress in January, 1953, as compared with 2 years before, was up by 62 per cent. Expenditure on hospital construction was up by 18 per cent. and the expenditure on land improvement was up by a rather peculiar figure—333 per cent. We heard a great deal about the land improvement scheme which in fact was originally commenced by Fianna Fáil in 1939 and which was altered by Deputy Dillon. We had again to alter the scheme but if we compare expenditure on the land rehabilitation scheme or, as we call it, the Land Reclamation Scheme, we find that it was 333 per cent. greater in 1952 than in 1950.

Take turf development. The lastGovernment waited for two years before they did anything about machine-won turf but the production of machine-won turf increased by 226 per cent. in the last two years. We had a great deal of talk about afforestation in the course of the debate on the last Estimate and Deputy MacBride did his utmost to deceive the people by suggesting that there had been a decrease in expenditure under the Vote. Actually the number of acres planted during the past 2 years went up by 102 per cent.

In connection with rural electrification, it should be remembered that the rural electrification scheme was introduced in 1947. Rural electrical schemes were initiated by Fianna Fáil and Fianna Fáil alone.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Shannon scheme, for instance.

I am talking about rural electrification. I shall deal with the Shannon scheme later. The number of electricity consumers connected increased by 32 per cent. in the last two years. Now I come to the question of power schemes. We have to give credit to the Fine Gael Government for the Shannon power scheme. There have been many power schemes implemented since, but a curious thing the last Government did was to agree to the planning of only two power stations which were to be fired by foreign fuel. Since June, 1951, we have initiated the planning of six power stations, using entirely native fuel or water. That is an answer to what Deputy O'Higgins has stated.

Mr. O'Higgins

Would you mind if I do not regard that as a complete answer?

I hope Deputies do not question these figures. They can ask questions in the Dáil if they wish to confirm the fact that we have speeded up national reconstruction and that we have completely run circles round the Opposition so far as achievement is concerned in practically every one of our reconstruction schemes.

You are a great circus all right.

I have said we have run circles around the Opposition. So far as emigration is concerned, I want to make one appeal to Deputies. It is about time that both sides stopped accusing their opponents of being responsible for emigration. If there is any good reason more than another for having had an alternative Government in office, I think that one reason would be that it is now established that emigration cannot be lightly solved.

There are four bad reasons for having the present Government in office—Cogan, Cowan, Browne and ffrench O'Carroll.

People who say that they are going to end emigration are dishonest because there is no easy solution for it.

You are condemning what your own Taoiseach said.

In actual fact, so far as the last Government was concerned they stimulated emigration. Emigration went up from 10,000 in 1947 to 41,000 in 1950. I am not charging the last Government with being responsible for emigration. I have not got the type of dishonest mind possessed by Deputy MacBride, but, as I say, emigration increased from 10,000 in 1947 to 41,000 in 1950 and they did nothing to stop it.

It increased during their period of office. In so far as unemployment is concerned, it averaged 58,000 during their first years of office. It averaged something over 60,000 during 1952. That is the only way to regard, in general, the unemployment problem. Unemployment did increase very largely in January of this year. There was an increase then which could almost entirely be accounted for by the fact that people in rural districts and people who habitually have slackness of work during the winter found that conditions made it easier for them to register than in previous years. Nobody will tell me that if unemployment was 3,000 odd in December, 1952, more than December, 1951, and that it then shot up another 9,000 in one month, this was entirely due to the policy of thepresent Government. It is ludicrous nonsense to make that assertion.

That is the fact.

He cannot explain away 90,000 unemployed.

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Unemployment has been caused by factors such as excessive prices. Take country districts, for example. In the country districts, 30 per cent. of the houses, for which grants are provided by the Government and by the local authorities, are built without recourse to borrowing. Therefore, so far as those are concerned, there can be no question about the operation of the increased rate of interest. Yet there has been a certain amount of slackness even in this class of building. Until recently, the high price of timber and other housing materials, in addition to the increase in wages for workers as a result of the increase in the cost of living over the past few years, made the cost almost prohibitive, but I am glad to say that the cost of some building materials is coming down. People will thus be encouraged to go on with their plans for the building of their houses even though the cost of materials is still very high.

I should like to refer to the figures in relation to the number of persons who have applied for grants in respect of new houses in the past few months. Though the rate of interest has increased, the number of applications for grants in the months of November, December and January of 1952-53 is just about the same as it was in the year 1950-51: it is not any less. There was an abnormal number of applications in the intervening years. The proportion who have applied, although it shows a reduction, shows that there is still a very large number of people who want these grants in spite of the increased rate of interest and the other difficulties with which they have to contend.

Have they any alternative?

They want the houses.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister should not look down his nose on them for that.

Rates of interest have gone up all over the world. They have gone up in Socialist countries. They have gone up in countries which have Governments who hold very advanced ideas. They have gone up in those countries as well as in the conservative types of countries. The rate of interest bears no relation to the political complexion of the Government in office. It would be a very good thing, I think, if we could, without causing other ill-effects, separate the rate of interest here from that of neighbouring countries. I think it would be excellent if we could do that for purposes such as housing. It is extremely difficult to detach the rate of interest in one country from that of another country.

I want to reiterate the main fact that the full programme of national reconstruction, which is so important in this country, has gone on in full force. We are doing everything we can to inspire new productive schemes. New industries are being promoted day by day. New committees are being formed to stimulate dollar export. Everything that can improve production is being done by the present Government. I am very proud to give that report on what we have done in regard to capital services. Listening to the Opposition, one gets the impression that, on the head of practically every one of these schemes— schemes which were originally Fianna Fáil schemes—there have been dramatic reductions, as though we were closing down on everything instead of expanding everything. I think it is just as well to inform the public that what the Opposition say is not, in fact, the case.

As I have said, countries with Socialist and Conservative administrations alike have faced the difficulty of price rise, have faced the break in prices and the question of people waiting to buy until they would see the price trend. There has been an increase in unemployment under every kind of administration. There has beenan increase of unemployment in Denmark—a country which has always had a very liberal administration and in which there has been a considerable amount of State activity. There was an increase of unemployment in the Netherlands before the floods took place—a country where there is a coalition of the Catholic and Socialist parties. There have been increases in unemployment in a great many countries in Western Europe—an increase generally caused by a buyers' strike.

They were at war.

That increase has taken place regardless of what the immediate Government policy happened to be. That has been the case in countries which were not at war, in countries which were neutral, in countries which did not have large defence expenditures and it has taken place in countries which were being heavily subsidised by the American Government for their defence expenditure. Grievous as has been the increase in unemployment we have got to deal with the matter; we have got to provide more employment under every heading. We have got to get over difficulties such as these. Out of about 116 local authority areas, the housing programme has been completed in 69. I think that in all but 16, houses required by local authorities in rural areas outside the county borough of Dublin are in some stage of progress. Eighty-four per cent. have bought the sites, are developing them or houses are actually being built on them. In about 69 out of 116 areas, local authority housing schemes are in sight of completion.

Mr. O'Higgins

That information is erroneous.

That creates a problem in regard to local unemployment. Unskilled and semi-skilled workers have gone to those areas expecting employment—employment which is now ceasing. In my own constituency of Longford-Westmeath the housing schemes are in sight of completion. The Coalition Government were well aware of the fact that these schemes werebeing completed but they did not leave any grandiose schemes on their shelves to absorb the employment content when the schemes would be completed. It is not easy to employ people when labour is not mobile. When people move to a district they do not want to move again. It is not easy to plan employment schemes so that people will get other employment but that problem is engaging the attention of the Government at the moment. The Government are very conscious of the fact that there will be a decline in employment through the completion of these housing schemes.

A further decline.

The general position is being examined with a view to providing employment schemes. When the position has fully been reviewed we shall know where we are in regard to this matter. There are many areas in which housing can still proceed. There is a certain amount of unemployment in Dublin because steps were not taken sufficiently early to provide sites for houses. We are not responsible for the deficiency in the provision of sites or for the difficulty in getting sites.

I want to leave the impression with the House that we intend to go on with this national reconstruction work. We have not strangled capital development in this country. We have encouraged it by every means possible. We have shown a far greater rate of progress in all the important policies designed to improve the national status than the last Government did in 1950 or 1951. We hope to be able to maintain that rate of activity provided we can be assured of stable conditions and provided the people of this country are not panicked by wild and exaggerated talk such as we heard in the speech delivered by Deputy J.A. Costello this afternoon.

Give the people just one trial.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who has just concluded, devoted a certain amount of his speech to unemployment. The Minister seemed to make light of the position that obtained in regard to theemployment figures during the period of the Coalition Government. It is true that we did not succeed in wiping out unemployment altogether, but I do say that we reached the stage where practically every person who was willing and able to work had full employment. In fact, I have personal knowledge of one Department of State where a scheme of works had to be closed down because there were no men available to do the work. In our time, we tried to approach this problem with a view to giving the maximum amount of employment to the greatest number of people at home. We cannot close our eyes to the fact that in this country at the present time we have 90,000 people unemployed. These figures indicate that the economic structure of the State is not in a very healthy condition.

A good deal has been said on the question of difficult times being ahead. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Finance and, again, this evening, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, all have said that we are facing difficult times. That seems to be the stock argument or cry of the Fianna Fáil Party. They seem to be for ever looking through glasses which are coloured and distorted with gloom and disaster around the corner.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, when speaking in Letterkenny in 1947, made a speech that was in almost identical terms with the speech made here this evening by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. He said that there were serious times ahead and that it would take the Government all its time to tide the country over them. A few short months afterwards, he and the Government of which he was a member went out of office. The inter-Party Government took over and for three and a half years, particularly towards the end of that period when our policy had begun to take effect and show its fruits, the country was enjoying a degree of prosperity such as it had never known before. Why, even the members of the Fianna Fáil Party do admit grudgingly from time to time that that is so, but, even while they do, they still try to maintain the false facade that the Coalition Governmentdid everything wrong, and that they did everything right.

I believe that the critical condition in which the country finds itself to-day dates back to the disastrous speech which was made by the present Minister for Industry and Commerce in August, 1951, shortly after this Government took office. It was followed by another speech of the same kind by the present Minister for Finance. Both Ministers made blood-curdling statements, and said that bankruptcy was around the corner.

Will the Deputy quote that speech, or any part of it?

If Deputy Cogan has nothing else to do he should go down to the Library and, by wading through the newspapers, he will find a record of that speech. It was made some time during the summer recess of 1951.

I have read it half a dozen times.

The speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was followed, as I said, a week later by a speech by the Minister for Finance. Apparently, he felt a little bit peeved at the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should have stepped into his domain and spoken on matters which are supposed to belong more or less to the Department of Finance. People began to ask themselves, especially business people, whether there was any truth in the statements made by both Ministers. In my opinion, it was from that date that the freeze in the circulation in money set in. That resulted in strangling the life of the country. The Government are now reaping the whirlwind which they sowed at that time. I believe that both Ministers were dishonest in making those speeches and did not believe in what they were saying. The speeches were simply made for the purpose of blackening the inter-Party Government. The truth is that the Fianna Fáil Government were astonished at the bouyancy in the circulation of money which obtained in the period of theinter-Party Government, at the low rate of unemployment and at the prosperity which had been enjoyed in every home in this land. These speeches, I believe, were made by the two Ministers to try and discredit their predecessors in office. As I have said, they are now reaping the whirlwind.

The freeze policy which set in that time is reflected in the present condition of the country. The purchasing power of every single citizen has declined, and the inflow to the Department of Finance has been checked. These are some of the results of that freeze policy.

The Minister for Finance, last night, devoted a good part of his speech to the necessity of increasing our agricultural output. We all realise that the prosperity of this country depends, to a very large extent, on our agricultural exports. Unfortunately, we have very little to export. Deputies on all sides of the House agree on the necessity of increasing agricultural exports. The present Government has been making a great show about the increase in agricultural produce exported during the last 12 months. Some of that is due to increased production on the land. I believe that the greater part of it is due to the fact that the income of all classes of our people—workers, farmers and others—were assaulted by the Budget of last year, and the consequent inability of people to maintain the standard of living to which they had been accustomed. We all realise that the standard of living of our people has been seriously reduced. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs maintains that the people are as well fed now as ever they were. I know that they are not, because they are not in the position to buy the quantities of food that they were in a position to buy 12 months ago.

Are you speaking personally?

They are not able to live as well now as they had been accustomed to. Therefore, one of the reasons why agricultural exports have increased is because of the fact that our own people are not now in a position to buy our own home-produced food. Iwant to see the volume of agricultural exports doubled, if possible, but first of all I want to see our people properly fed and in a position to maintain a fairly decent standard of living. I say that the ability to do that has been taken completely out of the hands of many of our people by the policy of the present Government, and particularly by its policy as reflected in the Budget of last April. That Budget was deliberately designed to bring about an increase in agricultural exports.

Something like the standard they had before Fianna Fáil took over in 1932—starvation.

The Budget was deliberately designed to bring about a reduction in the standard of living so that exports would increase. It was designed to reduce imports of certain necessary commodities so that the balance of trade would be restored. The price of food was assailed in particular by the Budget. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs told us a few moments ago that there is more bread and butter being consumed at the present time in this country. I do not believe a word of it. I do not believe he has figures to substantiate that statement. It is extraordinary that a Minister can calmly tell the House that the people are now eating more bread and more butter although butter has gone from 2/10 to 4/2 per lb. and the loaf has gone from something like 6d. to 9½d. It is absolute trash and nonsense. I know that a good deal of the exports are made available because our own people are no longer in a position to purchase the commodities. Unemployment is rife in every area. I am not one of those who would use that particular facet of Irish life for the sake of politics.

A real approach should be made to the problem of unemployment. At present there are 90,000 unemployed. In that 90,000 there is a small hard core of people who would be more properly classed as unable to work, through some physical deformity or mental infirmity, or both. I submit that at least 90 per cent. of the 90,000 are able and willing to work.

I want to ask the supporters of the present Government and the Ministers what the unemployment figure would be if the train-loads of people who have left Connacht, in particular, within the last 12 months, to emigrate to foreign lands, were included. I suggest that it would be in the region of 120,000. There is no check now, we are told, on the figure for emigration. There is one means of checking the figure. Anyone who will go to the railway stations or bus stops in the West of Ireland will see what is happening. The Parliamentary Secretary must be aware of the position. His own area must be suffering pretty badly from emigration and unemployment at the moment.

The inter-Party Government set about increasing agricultural production. The first attack made by that Government on the problem was through the medium of drainage, not one particular kind of drainage but three different systems.

I thought the attack was on the roadworkers, the bog-workers.

Deputy Davern wants to support a policy whereby grants for drainage are cut and the money is used to develop tourist roads. That is his method of increasing agricultural production. It is not mine. Deputy Davern, perhaps, does not live on the land. Deputy Davern, perhaps, does not know what it is to pay rent and rates for land that is under water and that is absolutely useless. He does not know perhaps, what it is to have the sheriff coming to the door to collect the rent and rates while Deputies supporting the Government can afford to sit back and laugh in this House when the problem is mentioned.

Do not shed too many crocodile tears.

I am not shedding any tears. As a farmers' representative, it is my duty to bring to the notice of all Deputies what the farmers' problems are and I will do that no matter what interruptions come from Deputy Davern.

You wanted to reduce the price of milk a minute ago.

I am on the question of increased agricultural production and drainage and I will not be put off my stride. Let us consider what the present Government are doing. We aimed at spending quite a lot of money on drainage. We wanted to bring into production the 4,000,000 acres which all statisticians agree are absolutely useless at the moment because they are permanently under water, subject to periodic flooding or waterlogged. Our principal means of increasing agricultural production was to restore that 4,000,000 acres to the farmers. A small corner or a large proportion of that land is attached to practically every holding. We aimed at bringing it into production. In the year that the Local Authorities (Works) Act was passed we gave a grant to the 27 county councils of £1,900,000. Let Deputy Davern take a note of that.

Tell the House the amount by which you reduced the road grants.

In the following year— I am speaking subject to correction— the figure was reduced by £100,000 or £200,000. It was over the £1,500,000 mark. As anybody who has eyes to see or who understands the problems of rural Ireland must realise, magnificent work was done by the engineering staffs of the 27 county councils under that Act. The Act was deliberately designed and introduced because we found the land rehabilitation scheme initiated by Deputy Dillon, who was then Minister for Agriculture, was held up in a great number of cases for want of some intermediate drainage scheme.

Would not that be a question for the main Estimate?

I hope it will not be difficult for me to relate it to the subject of increased agricultural production, which I think would be relevant.

Unless the Deputy goes into too much detail.

I will endeavour not to go into too much detail. The land rehabilitation scheme aimed at restoring4,000,000 acres to the farmers. That would have been about the best contribution that any Government could make to increased agricultural production.

May I make a few suggestions, Sir? If we are sincere when we talk about increased agricultural production, I suggest that there are three or four points to which the Government should pay attention. First, they should overhaul the whole system by which credit is made available to farmers and go back to the rate of interest that obtained when the inter-Party Government were in office. The Agricultural Credit Corporation is now charging 6 per cent. interest on loans—an increase of 1½ per cent. since the present Government took office.

The Deputy is going into questions of detail and they are not allowed on the Vote on Account.

He is not saying how he would reduce it.

These are matters that would properly arise on the Estimate for the Minister concerned.

Is it not in order for me to submit a few points?

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy is discussing the general credit policy and is making suggestions on major policy.

The Deputy is discussing loans to farmers.

As part of the scheme to increase agricultural production. That is general policy. While it may be a detail, I submit it is a very relevant and important detail. The second point I should like to make is that fertilisers should be made available at a cheaper price if we are sincere about increased agricultural production.

That is certainly a question for the main Estimate.

Obviously, there is not any use in trying to discuss increased agricultural production if I am not to submit my own suggestions.

The policy of the Department of Agriculture is not under review.

I submit that this is much too wide a matter for any one Minister to deal with. I suggest that it is a matter for the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and two or three other Ministers. I submit that this could not be decided by the Minister for Agriculture, that this is Government policy, or should be Government policy. For instance, the Minister for Agriculture cannot put in force a lower rate of interest charges for loans to farmers without going into consultation with the Government as a whole. That is the reason I am mentioning very broad headings which would not be considered too detailed for this debate. The restriction of credit by banks to farmers all over the Twenty-Six Counties by refusing loans even to those who have registered land is a matter that the Taoiseach and the Government should take up at once if they are sincere in trying to bring about increased agricultural production.

Before I leave that point, might I say that the present budgetary policy which commenced on the first Wednesday in April last year has deliberately produced the result of increasing agricultural exports, but at the expense of the standard of living of our own people. That was a desperate step for any Government to take. Ireland has been famous for producing the very best quality of food in the world and now that we have got our freedom, Irish people who produce or contribute towards the production of food, whether they live in the cities or towns or in the country districts, should have the first claim on that food. It is foul and wrong for any Government deliberately to deny them the purchasing power which would give them a chance to live in a moderately comfortable way on their own home-produced food.

The cutting down of drainage under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and transferring that money to another purpose is a completely retrograde step. The grant for the LocalAuthorities (Works) Act has been cut down from £650,000 to £400,000.

That was to buy Tulyar.

I presume that is where some of the money will go. The supplementary agricultural grants are down by £50,000. The urban employment schemes are down by £34,000 and the rural employment schemes by £46,000. These are in the domain of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. There has been a decrease of £200,000 on subhead K (1) of the Vote of the Office of Public Works for the purchase of machinery for arterial drainage and similar schemes. These are steps in the wrong direction. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will say that the Office of Public Works has sufficient machinery to deal with any arterial drainage schemes envisaged for the next three, four or five years.

That is the case.

Many people down the country would not agree with the Parliamentary Secretary on that. They would not agree with the snail-like pace with regard to arterial drainage or the cutting down of the Local Authorities (Works) Act drainage all over the country. They do not understand, now that the land rehabilitation scheme has got into its stride and the Vote should be expanded to the extent of £4,000,000 for the reclamation of the 4,000,000 acres I spoke of some time ago, how it is that that particular Vote is only increasing by a miserable £400,000 when it should be increased by £1,000,000 at least.

A great number of people do not agree with the way in which the Local Authorities (Works) Act was carried out in the first two years.

At that time every Fianna Fáil Deputy was going around the country saying that it would increase the valuation of the lands. Every conceivable falsehood they could manufacture was manufactured in order to kill that scheme.

Is Deputy Blowick not to be allowed to proceed with his speech without being constantly interrupted? If you want disorder, you will get it.

I want to deal now with one particular Department which the Minister for Finance dealt with or tried to deal with last night. Incidentally, he cut a very ridiculous figure in trying to deal with the matter and showed how little he knew about it. I am referring to the Department of Forestry. The Minister devoted a large part of his speech to that and finished up by saying that not one penny return has come from the trees planted during Deputy Blowick's time. I can imagine Dublin Opinionin its next issue picturing the Minister for Finance dressed in knickerbockers with a pair of leggings and a battered tweed hat setting off with an axe on one shoulder and a pick on the other to the forests in order to teach the Minister for Lands how they should be dealt with.

Last night the Minister for Finance gave us some very misleading details about the work of the Forestry Department. He quoted the Estimates for the various years and the Appropriations-in-Aid. I do not agree that the figures he quoted were the correct figures. Let us deal with this Minister for Finance who has suddenly taken forestry to his bosom and thinks it will be a cure for all the ills of the country at the present moment. The Estimate for the Forestry Department in 1937-38 was £152,798; in 1938-39 it was £148,103. It was reduced by £4,000 that year by this Minister who is now so particular about it. In 1948-49 the Estimates were prepared before we took office and we had no option but to introduce them. But, in the year 1949-50, the second year in which I as Minister introduced the Estimate, it was increased from £148,103 in 1938-39 to £583,500; in 1950-51 it was £699,865; and in 1951-52 it was £1,243,440.

What was it in 1948-49?

I may not have that figure. If I remember correctly, it wasbetween £300,000 and £400,000. I am subject to correction in regard to that, but the other figures are accurate. Let us now look at the Appropriations-in-Aid, that is the income from the Forestry Department. In 1937-38 they were £9,150; in 1938-39, £10,650; in 1949-50, £103,760; in 1950-51, £124,434; in 1951-52, £175,730. The present Government, including the Taoiseach, has never missed an opportunity of trying to belittle the forestry programme initiated during the inter-Party Government's régime. We know what the Fianna Fáil attitude towards forestry was in the past. They made no secret of it. Forestry was according to them too costly a luxury for this country. No particular attempt was made to bring the Forestry Division into full operation. The Minister did not tell us last night why the Appropriation-in-Aid has been increased from £9,150 in 1937-38 to £175,730 this year. Prior to our coming into office the Forestry Division was neglected.

There was a vast quantity of good matured timber purchased on estates up and down the country which was allowed to rot in some cases and in other cases to deteriorate into the firewood stage. I put 15 sawmills into operation in order to use that timber for our own people and to save imports. No mention was made of that last night. The Government has now taken over a Forestry Division, fully staffed and equipped. I took the trouble when I was Minister of travelling in the depths of winter all over the forests of England and Scotland to ensure that the best and most suitable machinery would be purchased for our forests here. We paid £160,000 for machinery.

The Deputy must make allowance for the changing value of money and also the change in the value of property.

I agree there has been a change, but we have had no explanation of the increase from £9,150 in 1938-39 to £175,000 in the present year. I hope that the second sawmillearmarked for Cork will be in production soon. There are 3,000,000 cubic feet of timber available there. There should be a return to the Department of something in the region of £400,000 a year from the work of those sawmills. The Minister for Finance talking about forestry is something of a joke. He castigated me and said that they were not reaping one penny from the trees planted in 1948, 1949 and 1950. That raised a laugh on both sides of the House. God help the present Minister for Lands, or any other Minister, trying to bring home to that little man the needs of his Department.

The present Government must revise the budgetary policy formulated last year. They seem to have devoted all their time during the year to trying to find some new class they could tax. They started on the housewives and the working man. Then we had the small farmer, the hackney driver and the lorry driver. I do not think there is any class that has not been assaulted by taxation. The standard of living has been reduced everywhere. I know it is humiliating for a Government to embark on a wild policy and then have to come back and eat humble pie, but even at this late hour it would be better to do that than to continue along the present lines.

We must face facts. Revenue has decreased from tobacco and drink because of the policy of the Government. In 1948, when these commodities were taxed, the people very promptly took the first opportunity of showing their disapproval, and we ran the country for three and a half years and brought prosperity to every home. The country was bursting with prosperity in 1951 when the present Government came into office. Unemployment had practically ceased. Young men who had emigrated had returned during those three and a half years to work again in their own land. Can anyone give me the name of even one young man who has come back under the present Government to find employment in his own country?

Mr. O'Higgins

Tulyar.

He has not come yet. It would be a formidable task if the Minister for Finance had to pay £250,000 for every man who returned to his native country. Can any member of the Fianna Fáil Party quote one person who has come home as a result of the present Government's policy?

The director of Radio Eireann is from your own county.

Deputy Corish should not interrupt.

There is a scandalous attempt being made by the Government at the present time to recapture some of the seats they lost in the last general election.

Surely that does not arise on the Vote on Account?

I hold that in this sum of £34,000,000 for which the Minister is asking the House now, there is a sum of money earmarked for the purpose of buying back popularity. From a political point of view that is a foolish thing, because a blind person could see through it. Public moneys should not be used for that purpose. It will not gain one vote for them. Their popularity is waning and the only thing that is left to the Government is to dissolve. After the next general election you will be over here again with the same sour faces that had my heart scalded during the three and a half years of the inter-Party Government. You can get an indicator if you like, in a small way, if you go to Wicklow.

The Deputy is getting very far away from the Vote on Account.

I think it is time the whole policy of the Government was reviewed. This is one opportunity Deputies get of reviewing it. On the Estimates one is confined to the particular matters dealt with in the particular Estimate before the House. Not until we reach the Taoiseach's Estimate can we review Government policy. The greatest benefit the Government could confer on the countrynow is to dissolve. The reason they are determined to hold on is that they know what the people's answer will be and that is, as Deputy Dillon told them, minus 25 seats on their way back from the hustings.

I will have to pull against Deputy Blowick this time. The people of Ireland are paying dearly for the three and a half years' experiment of the inter-Party Government.

Mr. O'Higgins

Hear, hear!

They are paying dearly for the way that Government conducted their affairs. The bad turns men do live after them.

God bless us!

Deputy Burke might be allowed to speak without interruption.

I must congratulate Deputy Blowick, Deputy Dillon and Deputy Costello for being past masters at misrepresentation. We were being told last year that we were budgeting for £10,000,000 more than we required. They castigated Fianna Fáil for what they said was dishonesty. The Deputies opposite worked themselves into a fury in trying to put that over on the people. They tried to convince the people that they were sincere and that they were telling the truth when they knew in their heart that no Minister for Finance of any democratic Party would budget for any more than was required. That was what the Minister for Finance did on the last occasion and will have to do again. Why are we in this position to-day?

Because Fianna Fáil is over there.

Why have we to do things of which the Opposition are so critical and regard as being wrong? They should realise that anything we are doing is for the purpose of putting this country in the same condition as we left it in 1948, in a sound economic position, so that we would not lose our economic independence as we would be in danger of losing it had we anotherone or two years of inter-Party Government.

The problems which exist in this country exist in other countries and they are applying similar remedies as we are applying. We want to see this country fit for our children and our grandchildren to live in in years to come. There is no foundation for the accusations made by the Opposition that Fianna Fáil are dishonest. We had to do the hardest thing any political Party in the world ever had to do. We had to put the interests of our country before our Party. We did not try to barter or to introduce dishonest Budgets and bolster up our own Party on that unsound basis. If we did that we would be failing in our duty as Irishmen and Irishwomen who had the responsibility of dealing with the affairs of this Dáil. We found it necessary, in carrying out our duty, to take most unpopular decisions in order to rectify the maladministration of the inter-Party Government during their three and a half years in office. They tore down a number of things we had built up. In my own constituency in County Dublin I found a number of factories with the workers idle. I had found neglect in a number of other industries that we had encouraged and fostered to make them of national benefit.

Deputy Dillon is continually expressing concern for the farmers of this country. He thought very little of the farmers when he tried to misrepresent my motives in seeking protection for our tomato industry because it was a national undertaking. He said I was concerned about vested interests although this industry was giving a good deal of employment at the time. Deputy Dillon was more concerned with giving employment to Dutch workers than with the welfare of the farmers.

It was the same in regard to the fishing industry and in regard to milk. Deputy Dillon succeeded in misrepresenting the farmers that he is now crying for. He preferred to import maize than give any semblance of protection to those anxious to grow maize in this country. The Fianna Fáil tillage policy was a wise one, and it brought very good results during thewar. As soon as Deputy Dillon got in he repudiated that policy and was supported 100 per cent. by the alleged archangels of the workers, the Labour Party. He abandoned the tillage campaign to the detriment of our economy as a whole. This was the man who was concerned about balancing the Budget and who was so interested in the farmer. He was prepared to give every protection to him. On many occasions he expressed in this House his concern for the dairying industry. His heart was bleeding for them. This is the type of dishonest politics and dishonest propaganda of which we hear so much day after day in this House. The Opposition did everything they could to belittle this country and to belittle the national aspirations of people on this side of the House who cherished ideals as far as this country was concerned. The ideal of the Fianna Fáil Party was that some day we would be able to build up the economy of the nation so that Irish men and women would obtain a livelihood which would enable them to look after their children in a Christian manner.

Deputy Dillon wants us to go to the country, as does his colleague and ex-Minister, Deputy Blowick. What have they to give to the country? All they are capable of is destructive criticism, and the same bartering would go on again.

Deputy Dillon spoke about Newfoundland and its unstable economic position. If Deputy Dillon had another year in office as Minister for Agriculture this country would have been reduced to a similar situation as exists in Newfoundland.

What are we doing for employment here? We have done everything humanly possible. We have encouraged our farmers to get back into tillage. We have increased the price of wheat with a view to inducing more agricultural workers to return to the land. We have encouraged more beet growing and more turf-cutting. We have also taken steps to develop our factories, all the protection they required has been afforded to them. Road grants have also been increased. All this work has been carried out with one object inview, to create employment for our people.

Many times during the three years that the inter-Party Government were in office, I was obliged to complain here that certain factories had been deprived of protection and that a number of workers were in consequence idle. I had to draw the attention of the responsible Minister to the serious state of affairs in my constituency during that period. If the prosperity that the inter-Party Government allege was brought about by their administration was as great as they suggest, we should be living in a Utopia at the end of their term of office. Unfortunately the evil that men do lives after them and we are paying for the maladministration of the inter-Party Government now. I hope that sincere people in Ireland whatever their political views may be will not close their eyes to the position into which the inter-Party Government led this country and that they will realise that anything the present Government has been forced to do is in the interests of themselves and their children. I hope that no matter what propaganda is used down the country, the people will not be hoodwinked into selling their birthright.

One would imagine listening to Deputy Blowick that there was never a Forestry Department in Ireland until Deputy Blowick came along. The Forestry Department was in existence long before Deputy Blowick appeared on the political scene. The only difference between Deputy Blowick and his predecessor in the Fianna Fáil administration was that the Fianna Fáil Minister was anxious that lands which could not be utilised for any other purpose would be used for growing trees. Judging by a remark which I heard yesterday across the floor of the House, Deputy Blowick as Minister did not mind if trees were planted in the best arable land in the country. I hold that no trees should be grown in arable land; I believe we have enough waste land to grow timber and that arable land could be more profitably used for other purposes. The inter-Party Government started off on a campaign in regard to forestry in whichthey appeared to be more interested in setting up records than anything else. A tree might be only 2 months old, perhaps the size of a match, but so long as it was only stuck in the ground they did not mind, since is counted for record purposes. With eyewash of that kind they hoped to convince the country that they were doing something which in fact they were not doing.

We heard a good deal about the adverse trade balance and what it means. We know Deputy Dillon's outlook and that it has changed only very slightly from the time he was anxious to import maize, tomatoes and every single commodity he could import. The defence of the previous Government for their stockpiling policy was that they thought that we were going to have war but if, instead of importing finished articles, they imported the raw materials for these articles we could have kept our workers in employment. There are factories in my constituency which are still suffering from the stockpiling policy operated by the last Government. Many Opposition Deputies now have the effrontery to ask the present Ministers questions in regard to conditions for which they themselves are responsible.

They know well that nothing the present Minister will do can rectify the mistakes of the past. If there was a shred of honesty among the members of the Opposition to-day, they would recognise that the Fianna Fáil Government are endeavouring to repair the mistakes which the previous Government made. The Fianna Fáil Government was saddled with a very ugly job and, as I say, they are trying to rectify the mistakes of their predecessors. If the inter-Party Government were in office now, they would have to follow along the very same lines but instead of honestly admitting that, they resort to expediency and seek to make Party capital out of every action of the Government. I must again compliment them on being past masters in misrepresentation and in being completely dishonest in the manner in which they seek to present facts to the people.

My final appeal to anybody who wants Ireland to go ahead is not toallow himself to be swayed by the misrepresentations of ex-Ministers of the inter-Party Government and of Deputies on the Opposition Benches. These misrepresentations should not be heeded lest they should undo the good work which we have done in the past and with which we have been going ahead since we resumed office.

Mr. O'Higgins

I think it would be a kindness to ask the House to forget quickly what Deputy Burke has been endeavouring to say. I was interested in the speech which was made this afternoon by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. He took it upon himself to lecture this House and the country on economic matters. On every possible occasion during the past two years, this junior member of the Government has endeavoured to outdo other members of the Government in long fulminations on economic matters, in explaining not only what makes this country tick economically but what causes every other country under the sun to tick economically. That may appeal to the ego of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs but it is often a very painful experience for the members of this House.

It is particularly painful when we find that the urge to lecture compels the Minister concerned to express immense satisfaction on the alleged achievements of his Government. He said to-day that he is very proud to be able to give the House and the country a report with regard to the astounding progress made by the Fianna Fáil Government in the past two years. He said he was proud to make that report—even though Deputy Dr. Browne and other Deputies pointed out to him that the effect of the good work of his Government, in terms of human misery, was that there are now 90,000 unemployed persons in this country. In addition, there has been a considerable increase in emigration. That did not depress the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. His happy little financial soul was delighted that the books were balancing and that everything was grand, in terms of figures. I cannot understand the mentality that would permit a member of an Irish Parliament to view with satisfactiona set of Government actions which have brought about the greatest unemployment problem in the history of this State. I do not know how the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could regard that as something of which he and his country could be proud. I would dub anybody who would fall for that fallacy as a person unfitted not only to be a member of a Government elected by this House, but unfitted to be a member of this House. I could remind the House of many other matters with which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs dealt, but, if I did so, I should fall into the same error of fulminating on important matters. I do not intend to do that.

This debate, at the commencement of the financial year, affords Deputies an opportunity of examining Government policy—if they have a policy— and of making suggestions of a concrete nature with regard to matters of policy. We on this side of the House intend to avail fully of this opportunity this year to examine Government policy, because we firmly believe that the country is now faced with a danger as great as any she has ever faced. We firmly believe that this country is face to face with a crisis of serious dimensions. It is not a crisis brought about by military pressure or matters of that kind.

It is a crisis caused by reason of the fact that our economic situation is such that we are not employing our own citizens, that we are compelling them to emigrate and that we are forcing on our people the acceptance of a substantial lowering of living standards. That critical situation is a challenge to Irish initiative, to political Parties and to people generally to find a solution for it. We on this side of the House have the solution. The Fine Gael Party have a policy which, we believe, will go a long way towards solving unemployment, towards stemming the trend of emigration and towards the solution of the perennial problems of underproduction in this country.

If, in the course of this debate, we find it necessary to criticise in a decisiveand determined manner the occupants of the Government Benches we do so only because they are standing in the way of our getting on with the work. We have ceased to regard them as in any way directing or leading the country. We have ceased to regard them seriously as the Government of this country. They are there and they will remain in office only so long as they can maintain the lifetime of this present Dáil. The very moment circumstances compel a dissolution of Dáil Eireann the way will be cleared for a new Government and for the implementation of a policy which will tackle the present problems which face the country. The danger is that the human weakness and frailty of those sitting on the Chair's left-hand side may cause the period of salvation of our people to be unduly delayed. I hope that that will not be so.

To understand any policy or to advance a solution for any problem, it is necessary to understand how the problem arose in order that remedies may be considered. It may be just a refining of the causes if I say that much of the problems that now face this country arise by virtue of the fact that Fianna Fáil are in office and that we are not. But, although that may appear to be merely a small political crack, I think that in fact it contains a great deal of truth in it.

The facts are that, before the present Fianna Fáil-Independent Coalition Government found itself in office, there was in operation here not a perfect fin-economic policy and not a perfect financial policy, but at least a planned effort to solve the perennial problems of unemployment and emigration. That policy which had been in operation under the inter-Party Government, grew, if you like, out of an effort by that Government in 1948 to get to grips with the situation which they found confronting the country.

In 1948, when the inter-Party Government went into office, they faced, as we are facing now, an unemployment problem of serious dimensions, not as serious as now but serious enough; they faced also an emigration problem not as serious as now but serious enough; they faced a taxation problemnot as serious as now but serious enough. The situation which faced the inter-Party Government when it went into office was this: employment was not available for our people at home, and, because it was not available, they had to emigrate. Those who still held employment here found taxation pressing heavily on them. There had been a Supplementary Budget only a few months before which imposed taxation on, amongst other things, beer, stout and cigarettes. Taxation at the time took a fair portion of the wages that any worker, who was lucky enough to hold a job at home, earned. The problems which faced the inter-Party Government required some solution. I make a present to the Government side of the House, if they make any point that no clear policy was announced before the inter-Party Government went into office, by saying that that is true. But a policy grew up very quickly, a policy designed initially from a short term point of view and later from a long term point of view, a policy designed to deal with the particular problems which then faced the Government and the country.

Now, that policy was an investment policy, a policy aimed at supplying to this country the great need for capital investment which had been referred to, and talked about for many years before, and the absence of which led to constant yearly unemployment, to the constant drain of emigration and to the many problems which then faced the country. The inter-Party Government set out on a course designed in a small way in the beginning to supply to this country the capital investment it required. There were many ways in which the then Government sought to fuse into the country's economy the capital it required. There was, first of all, a savings drive. It will be recalled by the House that, only a few months before the inter-Party Government came into office, the then Fianna Fáil administration had reduced the interest payable to the small depositor in Saving Certificates and in the Post Office Savings Bank.

Is this a history of Fianna Fáil or of Fine Gael?

Mr. O'Higgins

It is for the education of the Deputy.

Whatever it is, I submit that it is not in order on the Vote on Account.

Mr. O'Higgins

The first thing that was done was to increase the interest payable on savings. The Government then decided to tackle the big problem of foreign disinvestment. In setting out on that course, the inter-Party Government had had many teachers in the past if they had any doubt as to the wisdom of repatriating some of this country's foreign assets for productive purposes here, and, not in a short space of time but over a long space of time, they would have expected that that policy would have appealed to the then Fianna Fáil Opposition. The last thing they would have expected would be an appeal for financial orthodoxy from people like the then Deputy MacEntee or Deputy Briscoe or Deputy Lemass or other Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party, because the present Minister for Finance had very definite views on this question of investment generally. It is almost 30 years since, in this House, the then Deputy MacEntee in the salad days of Fianna Fáil——

Surely it is not in order to go back 30 years on the Vote on Account?

Mr. O'Higgins

It is of importance and I think I will be able to show that it has a connection with the present policy of the Government.

We are discussing the policy of the Government in the present year and not 30 years ago.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am endeavouring to discuss the reasons why the Government have no policy in relation to the problems which now face the country. To do so, I think I am in order in showing that the varying ideas with regard to the financial and economic policy have their result in the fact that there is no policy now. Speaking in this House—Volume 21, column 809, 3rd November, 1927—the then Deputy MacEntee, like the present Ministerfor Posts and Telegraphs, referred to other countries as an example of the financial policy we should follow. He said:—

"In France you have a practical example of that."

He was speaking about credit facilities.

"You have seen what France did, as this British observer says, by her own resources. She had not to borrow abroad. The money, credit and capital, as well as the labour to do this, was provided by France. How has that been accomplished? The Government controlled the credit and retained control of that credit, notwithstanding the inducements made to it by foreign financiers to surrender it. The Government was not under the control of the credit manufacturer, as the present Government in Ireland has been since the day the Provisional Government accepted their first loan from the Bank of Ireland early in 1922. Controlling that credit power, the Government of France compelled it to the service of the State. It never allowed it to restrict itself so as to cripple industry, but forced it to expand, when such expansion was necessary to carry through the great schemes of national reconstruction that the State had framed. Compare the blessings that the policy of that enlightened and patriotic Government brought to its people with the misery and suffering we have endured under Mr. Cosgrave, who has kept us all the time tied up in a strait-waistcoat of Threadneedle Street."

Deputy MacEntee went on to say:—

"The President is a fair sort of economist, an ardent disciple, I think, of the Manchester school, and an excellent specimen, I would say a relic, interesting and sometimes amusing, of an economic policy of bygone age. But, unfortunately for this country and its people, his economic development ended, I should say, before he was born. In the course of his speech he said that he listened to more economicheresies than he had ever listened to in his life."

The Deputy went on to say that the then Government regarded as an economic heresy anything that would separate them from the fiscal and financial control of John Bull. He said that the Government had gone about tying up their currency to the British £ and that the industry of this country was thereby in chains, because of the link with sterling.

That is a financial view and a financial policy expressed by the Fianna Fáil Party many years ago. That financial view and that financial policy was repeated by the present Minister for Finance some years later. On the 23rd September, 1931, he is reported in the Irish Pressas saying:—

"Even before the Fianna Fáil Party went into the Dáil, its members had directed public attention to the dangers to which our people were exposed by reason not only of our attachment to sterling but of the shortsighted policy of the Anglo-Irish bankers in investing their depositors' funds in British securities. The Free State Government, under President Cosgrave, has been on the side of Britain. The Anglo-Irish banks have been on the side of Britain. The Currency Commission has been on the side of Britain."

He made an appeal then that the Irish Government should break the link with sterling, control its own credit and everything would be perfect.

Those were expressions of policy on financial matters by the present Minister for Finance and we have to consider now, many years later, how time and office have tempered and changed the views that the Minister held in his early salad days.

I have said that most of the problems this country is now facing are due to the fact that the present Government is in office and we are out of office. The House should remember that one of the first statements made by the present Minister when he assumed office two years ago was directed to this whole question of capital investment, the control of credit and the policy that theinter-Party Government had had in operation.

Speaking in this House on the 18th July, 1951—Volume 126, column 1884— the Minister said:

"In our circumstances now and in pursuance of present policy, the overriding objective is to see that the community surrenders enough purchasing power to cover all the State outlay, current and capital, on the one hand to curtail expenditure regarded as being in the national interest or, on the other hand, to adopt methods of financing its expenditure which are undoubtedly injurious to the national economy."

There was the start of the difficulties that this country has faced. The Minister was speaking at a time when the State had gone as near achieving full employment as it ever had in its history. He was speaking at a time when the State had nearly got back to the year 1931, the year before Fianna Fáil came into power, when there was no emigration at all. He was speaking at a time when there had been a substantial fall in emigration. He was speaking at a time when taxation was pretty well contained within the ability of the people to bear and when prices were certainly not the problem that they are now. In that situation the Minister says:

"In our circumstances now and in pursuance of present policy, the overriding objective is to see that the community surrenders enough purchasing power to cover all the State outlay, current and capital..."

That was quite a challenge to the policy that we had in operation. The inter-Party Government's policy did not require the people to surrender their purchasing power to finance the capital projects of the State. Those were financed through savings—that to a certain extent would be a surrender of purchasing power but it would not be the compulsory surrender that the Minister was there talking about—and through foreign disinvestment. There was this challenge to the policy that we had in operation.

That speech of the Minister on the 18th July, 1951, was followed, two or three months later, by the Central Bank Report. That report in turn was followed, in the spring of last year, by the Budget that has been discussed here.

I hope to show that, in the intervening period between the speech on the 18th July, 1951, and the passage of the Budget the Government turned their back completely on the policy of their predecessor; that, in so doing, they went back to the policy which had been in operation before of starving the country of investment and that, as a result, unemployment began to assume critical proportions, emigration again began to increase, and as a result, we have had all the difficulties which now face the country.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs took some pride because he said the Government had not taken the advice given in the Central Bank Report. For instance, he said with regard to the recommendation to remove subsidies that the Fianna Fáil Government had not done that, that they had only reduced the subsidies. That is like the plea that members of my profession from time to time hear, in fact have to make for a thief who stole some money. The thief makes the case: "I should not be regarded as a thief because I stole only £5 and not £10." It is absurd for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, whose Government implemented the policy which was designed to take from our people their purchasing power by compelling them to pay more for the goods they had to buy to keep body and soul together, to take credit for the fact that they had not taken more purchasing power when they were about it. We all know that the Central Bank Report was swallowed hook, line and sinker by the neophyte economists who adorn the present Government.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs also derived some pleasure from the fact that that report of the Central Bank was similar to reports made by other financial authorities to democratic Governments in Western Europe. I have no doubt that that is so. Ishould like to know from the Minister, however, how many other Governments swallowed it hook, line and sinker as his Government have done. I cannot think of any democratic Government which would be prepared to do what that report suggested should be done, deliberately to reduce living standards by compelling people to pay more for food and in that way absorbing excess purchasing power; deliberately causing unemployment by restricting public works and capital schemes of that kind so that the wages which might have been earned would not be added to the pool of purchasing power. I cannot think of any other Government in any part of the world who would be prepared to do that.

It may be suggested that the British Government in the Budget introduced a few weeks before our Budget here last year followed the same line. I have no doubt that the British Budget was used as a model to a certain extent for the present Minister's Budget last spring. Using it as a model, however, the Minister apparently did not appreciate the very great safeguards which the British Government introduced to ensure that living standards would not be harmed and that employment would not be seriously affected. We had here the most crude form of deflationary Budget introduced by any Government within recent years. The results that followed showed the macabre mentality that sponsored, formed and fashioned that financial instrument. The purchasing power of the people has disappeared. Having to pay more, being able to earn less, naturally they have suffered considerably in living standards.

It was also inevitable that with a Budget of that kind the business life of the community and available employment should have suffered. That has happened to a very marked and astounding degree during the last 12 months. I do not know whether members of the Government or Deputies on the other side appreciate how sensitive business conditions can be in any country. If a Government proceed positively to interfere with the confidence of the community, with creditfacilities and matters of that kind, then the harm they do in itself causes further harm. We all know that the unemployment caused initially by the Budget of last year in itself further reduced purchasing power in the hands of the community and that that further reduction caused further unemployment, and a spiral has been started the effects of which are now beginning to be apparent even to Deputies on the other side of the House. So serious is the unemployment problem now that we are finding it running at the rate of 1,000 persons per week. There are 1,000 people holding down jobs to-night who will not have them this night week. That is a very tragic situation when it is realised that 90,000 people unemployed is only part of the tragic story of the results of the last Budget.

One can only guess at the number of people who have emigrated during the past 12 or 18 months. No figures are available. It is impossible to know, at the moment at any rate, what the tide of emigration is now. Certainly, from my knowledge of the country and of my own constituency I would regard the trend of emigration now as being as serious as it was at any time during the last war. Travelling facilities between England and Ireland have eased. People can now travel without difficulty or investigation and the man who is unemployed on Monday can find himself looking for a job in London or Manchester two or three days later.

And vice versa.The Deputy appreciates that a number of people are coming back from England to this city.

Mr. O'Higgins

I do not think it can be urged that we have returning emigrants attracted by prospects of employment here.

It is true that there are more coming back now. Conditions are very bad in England at the moment.

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Deputy believes that, then my prognosis for the Fianna Fáil Party is very bad indeed. That is the greatest piece of pipe-dreamingI have ever heard. The fact is that emigration is now taking a greater toll than it ever did for many years past.

That is not right. I am in touch with the City of Dublin.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy is talking about the City of Dublin! We have in this city at the present moment an unemployment problem greater than we have ever had before. In the satellite town of Bray we have 3,000 people unemployed. What is the use of saying our emigrants are coming back here to find work in this city?

They are coming back.

Deputy O'Higgins should be allowed to make his speech in his own way without interruption.

Mr. O'Higgins

Building has slumped. Every large source of employment is going through difficult times. Men are being laid off work every day. The Deputy's argument is nonsense. It is in that situation of unemployment and hardship that we are anxious the people should be given an alternative and should be given the opportunity of putting a better policy into operation. I do not for a moment concede that there is any policy in operation because it is a regrettable fact that over the last 18 months or two years we have had the Government jumping like so many grasshoppers from one crisis to another, following no consistent course and no consistent plan.

The present Minister for Finance may derive some satisfaction from knowing that he has done what we on this side of the House have been trying to do for a great number of years: he has finished the Fianna Fáil Party. There is no doubt that the last 18 months has wrought the destruction of any political support for the present Government here because of the results of the grasshopper financial policy it has put into operation.

Obviously, if our present ills are to be cured, some political Party with a programme will have to do that work. The Fianna Fáil Party has noprogramme. The Minister stood for the printing of banknotes in 1931. He now stands for a greater orthodoxy in finance than do the financial experts of the Bank of England, and in comparison with our present Minister for Finance the experts of the Bank of England are roaring "Reds". The present Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce stood for breaking the link with sterling in 1927. He is now the trumpeter of the Central Bank.

How can the people have any confidence in a Government composed of a multiplicity of minds? The first thing that must be done is to restore the confidence of our people. In the last two years serious attacks have been made on the credit-worthiness of this State. The hatchet men of the present Government went out armed with their little hatchets to chip away the credit-worthiness of this State. Their little bit of chipping has not, fortunately, done irreparable damage, but it has to a certain extent caused harm and dismay. It has caused 90,000 people to be unemployed. It has caused 60,000 or 70,000 people to emigrate. It has caused a substantial increase in taxation; it has caused a very serious increase in prices. But all that can be cured if confidence is restored.

The first thing necessary to restore confidence is to get the present Government out. In no other way can the people's confidence be restored in the financial or economic future of the country except by the election of a Government and a Party that knows the financial strength of the country and the policy to be operated to nurture that strength. The present Government has caused our present problems. The problems are far too big for them, and, in order to restore confidence, the present Government will have to resign. They must make way to enable others to solve the problems they have created.

Secondly, the next Government must realise, as the inter-Party Government realised, that mere book-keeping transactions, as the Leader of the Opposition said to-day, do not spell economic stability and soundness. The fact thatthe adverse trade balance has been reduced does not mean that the country is well governed, that social problems have diminished, that sources of employment have increased, or that the people generally are better off.

The greatest mistake the present Minister has made is that he has concerned himself in the last 18 months with the book-keeping orthodoxy of his financial policy. He shuddered with horror when he saw an adverse balance of trade, of some phenomenal figure according to him, in 1950 and 1951 and he proceeded to remedy that situation. It all tied up with the recommendations of the Central Bank and with other advices he got. He proceeded to introduce his famous deflationary policy, preventing the people from buying by stealing the money from them. He solved his balance of trade problems. He can have a present of that. But at what cost to the people? Instead of importing the building materials necessary to house our people and the other commodities urgently required we are now exporting thousands and thousands of human beings and we are running at a greater cost than ever before social services in an effort to maintain to some extent those who are unemployed at home. That is how we are paying the cost of the book-keeping rectitude that the present Minister preached as his gospel over the last 18 months or two years.

We realise that to solve the present problems will require a lot more than would have been necessary if the temporary interruption of the inter-Party Government had not taken place. We propose—as the Leader of the Opposition has stated time and time again—to continue our investment programme, if returned to power. We propose to repatriate some of this country's external assets. We make no apology that that was our policy in the past. The adoption of that policy in the past provided employment and gave a lasting return to the country. What we did before we will do again.

It has been suggested that the justification for the actual amount of money invested by the Central Bank in Britain has been the demand forliquidity. As the Leader of the Opposition stated recently at the Fine Gael Ard Feis, we propose to take steps to provide a domestic money market that will provide liquidity which has been offered as a justification for these investments abroad. That capital investment programme will be financed, firstly, by the reinvestment in this country of our people's assets and sterling credits at present invested abroad. It will be done in a sane, prudent manner by men who know what they are doing, whose policy was successful in the past and who do not go in for the claptrap with which some members of the present Government sought votes some 20 or 30 years ago. They do not talk about the financial straitjacket, Threadneedle Street, such as the present Minister talked about before he became a Minister.

The next thing we propose to do is what the present Minister spoke about on the 18th July, 1951 but did not do. We would take steps to increase the capital that would be available from savings. I think it can be said by Deputies on all sides of the House that the Leader of the Opposition consistently for the last 18 months or 2 years has stated time and time again the necessity for a savings drive in this country. He has suggested—and at times he has been sneered at for his pains—that the Minister would be giving better service to the State if he would create enthusiasm among local bodies, voluntary and other kinds of bodies, for a savings drive. The result could substantially increase the capital available for a long term investment programme.

We in Fine Gael suggest that such a savings drive is essential. If that is not done there are many other things that could be done to increase the voluntary savings of the people. An intelligent programme of tax relief for small savings and an increase in the relief of life insurance premiums could be provided. In addition much could be done with regard to industrial activity, providing for industrialists an inducement to save by tax reliefs worked out in various ways.

In any event, we on this side of the House do emphasise the necessity for increased savings. Unlike the Minister,we do not merely indulge in pious aspirations of that kind but we suggest a way of doing what we regard as necessary.

What is the policy on subsidies?

Mr. O'Higgins

Our policy on subsidies apparently fell on deaf ears at the time of the Budget.

Are they going to be restored or not? Give a straight answer.

His lips are sealed.

Mr. O'Higgins

I suggest the Deputy should not talk too much about subsidies. Not so very long ago Deputy Browne had an opportunity seldom given to human beings of ensuring that the price of bread would not increase and that the prices of those other commodities would not increase. He was able to walk to the Lobby himself but he could not induce his colleague to rise from the seat.

To reduce taxes and restore subsidies—that is a problem.

Mr. O'Higgins

By the time the Fine Gael Party programme is started I think we will find Deputy Browne very anxious to climb on the band wagon.

There are other matters with regard to capital investment with which the Leader of the Opposition has dealt fully. I cannot go into them in detail and I do not intend to do so. Suffice it to say that our policy is a constructive one. We do not merely come here or engage in this debate for the purpose of abusing the present Government and leaving it at that. We have a policy that will reduce the figure of 90,000 unemployed that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs thought something desirable in the country. We have a policy which will stem emigration.

What is the policy? The Deputy stated that at the outset.

Mr. O'Higgins

I have been endeavouring to refer to it. It is a policy of capital investment which we hadin operation for three years, and will continue in operation if we get into power. It must be clear, certainly to the country if not to the House, that the present situation cannot continue for long. There is, so far as the people can see, no lead being given by the Government with regard to the problems which face the country. Different Ministers make different speeches and advocate different policies from time to time. The only Party in this House which has consistently followed, in government and out of government, the same financial and economic policy has been the Fine Gael Party, led by Deputy Costello, the Leader of the Opposition.

He has advocated and put forward consistently in the last two years, the assurance to the people that, financially and economically, we are as sound as any other country under the sun, that all we require to solve unemployment, emigration and allied problems is the intelligent investment here at home of the resources that we may have available, and that we are lucky as a country to have available for investment substantial external resources. That policy that he has consistently preached now assumes a more real significance because the alternative prudish book-keeping policy of the present Minister for Finance has been in operation for the last 18 or 19 months, and the people can see what harm it has done. The people can see, in terms of human suffering and misery, the appalling thing that was done when certain Deputies in this House, for reasons material only to themselves, caused a temporary stoppage of inter-Party policy. The alternatives are clear to the people now. It is for that reason I say that our policy now assumes a new significance.

We are shortly to have another Budget in this country. It is too early to say who will introduce that Budget. It is also too much of a gamble to imagine what policy will inspire that Budget but assuming, for the purposes of this debate only, that the Budget to be introduced in three or four weeks will be introduced by the present Minister for Finance, can the House justcontemplate the policy that is likely to inspire his Budget? No longer clad in the armour in which he garbed himself in April, 1952, when he posed here as the Iron Chancellor, telling the people that they would have to pay whether they liked it or not, he came into the House last night full of sweet reasonableness. In future, according to the Minister, taxation is to be assessed not merely by the capacity of the people to pay but by their willingness to pay. That is a new departure for the Minister for Finance. Possibly it is part of the lesson that was taught in North-West Dublin. The willingness of the people to pay is now to be an important item in Government financial policy. The willingness of the people to pay involves freedom of action for the individual who feels that an unfair tax is imposed and who refrains from buying rather than pay that unfair tax.

It was the willingness of the people that we on this side of the House endeavoured to bring before the Government and the Minister when his Budget was introduced almost 12 months ago. We made the charge then, and it is as well that the House should be reminded of it now, that the last Budget aimed at a surplus and that the Government intended to take some £9,000,000 or £10,000,000 more than was required from the people in taxation. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs chided the Opposition with that charge made on the occasion of the last Budget. We repeat it now. The Minister for Finance hoped that his Budget would yield a surplus of £9,000,000 or £10,000,000. There were some incalculables that he did not take into consideration. One was the popular opinion which his Budget formed and fashioned against taxation which the public believe to be unfair. To that extent the surplus might not realise what he hoped it to be. It may not be £10,000,000 but there is no doubt that there is going to be a substantial surplus on this year's trading.

There is no doubt that at the end of the present year the Minister will have £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 over to play with. It is for that reason that one can understand why Government Ministersin the last two weeks have been summoning up sufficient courage to say that the limit of the people's capacity for taxation has been reached. It has been reached of course; we all know that but did it ever happen before in this country that Government Ministers said it on the eve of a Budget? You know there was a time when it was possible to run the affairs of this country for the stupendous sum of £24,000,000 a year. That is a long time ago. When the country was being run on £24,000,000, in 1927, the present Minister said that was a colossal sum and that if his Party got into power they would run it for half the amount. Now 25 or 26 years later, when the yearly cost of running the State amounts to about £100,000,000, we find the Minister saying that the limit of taxation has been reached. I say these speeches have been made because the Government realise that the Opposition charge made in April last year, has now been proven to have been correct and that the Government is collecting £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 more than they require for expenditure. For that reason I have no doubt that the people can expect in the next Budget substantial tax relief.

There is no reason why the unsound tax imposed on spirits and beer should not be removed. It has not been a success. It has been one of the taxes that have cut across the willingness of the people to bear. The fund is there to give tax relief and I have no doubt such relief will be given, but no matter what relief may be given and must be given by the Minister in the coming Budget the fact will remain that harm has been done by the Government, that the confidence of the people has been severely shaken and that the need remains for a change in Government and a change of policy. We on this side of the House will continue to work towards that end knowing that we have a policy which can solve some of the problems which face the country.

I only hope that after almost two years of Fianna Fáil maladministration, the Deputies, who by their previous unthinking act brought this Government into being, will now as fair minded Deputies, assessing the situation as they are entitled to do,looking at what this Government's policy has done to the country, realising that outside this Dáil there is no support for the policies or personalities that have brought this about and realising the need of the hour—a restoration of national confidence—will give to the people an opportunity freely to elect a new Government to follow a policy better designed in the national interest. I only hope that those Deputies will avail of this opportunity to do that. I will not say that, if they do, they will wipe out the political guilt that has befallen them but certainly they will have made some amends. If an opportunity is given to dissolve this unrepresentative Dáil then the people undoubtedly will do the rest.

I am somewhat confused because I understood that the business before the House is the discussion of the Vote on Account. I felt that, in discussing this Vote on Account, we would be as far removed as possible from the atmosphere of the hustings at a general election. Deputy O'Higgins attempted to offer the public what he now regards as sufficient evidence of a new and, he alleges, a good Fine Gael policy on which they will ask the people for their votes to re-elect them as a Government. In that connection, Deputy O'Higgins could not restrain himself from pouring venom on certain Independent Deputies in this House. That comes rather strange from a Deputy of a Party which has a history of swallowing up all its friends and digesting them completely out of existence.

An unpleasant experience.

But never for sale in the shop window.

Deputy O'Higgins has a grievance against those Deputies who refused to be swallowed by his Party. He has a grievance against those Deputies who planted their feet on the ground and refused to be swallowed by Fine Gael. He has a grievance against those Deputies who stood for the principles on which they were elected to this House. Deputy O'Higgins has tried to suggest thatbecause those Deputies exercised their rights to use their own discretion in this House——

Mr. O'Higgins

They had no right to do wrong.

But Deputy O'Higgins has the right to do wrong.

That is the difference.

Nobody has the right to do wrong except Deputy O'Higgins and the Fine Gael Party.

Mr. O'Higgins

I thought that that was Fianna Fáil policy.

Deputy O'Higgins concentrated on three main items during his speech. He talked of unemployment, of emigration and of capital—or the lack of it—in the sense of its being made available for development. He said that Fine Gael had no unemployment, that they had no emigration and that there was a rapid repatriation of capital for capital development works. The Deputy spoke the whole time without giving us any relevant facts or figures. I want now to put the real facts on record. According to Fine Gael—and according to Deputy O'Higgins, in particular—since we took office in 1951 we have increased unemployment in this country.

I want to put the facts on record. Then, perhaps, those Deputies who cannot but be fair will accept the facts and will refuse to listen to the type of tripe for which the speeches of Deputy O'Higgins are so notorious.

The average weekly number of persons in insurable employment in the year ending 31st December, 1950, was 489,800.

On the 31st December, 1951, the average number had risen to 498,900.

The last figure which is available— the 31st December, 1952—was in excess of 500,000.

Those are the facts and they can easily be confirmed if honest Deputieson the Opposition Benches will put down a question asking for the returns in respect of the sale of stamps—on which these records are produced. But, of course, there are some Deputies who do not want that information. It is much better to be able to say that unemployment has increased and to do without proving it. I have given the House the facts.

There are more people in employment to-day than there were two or three years ago.

But there are also more unemployed.

Deputy Dockrell should know me well enough to realise that I can explain that also. I want to put an end to the untrue assertion that there are more unemployed to-day than there have been previously. There are more people in employment.

Now we come to the unemployed. It is suggested that, because a greater proportion of people are signing on now, less people are employed. I want to prove that more people are employed. Deputies on both sides of the House know very well that recently the category of persons signing on at the labour exchanges was extended to include persons who previously were not able to sign on or who, until the increase in benefit, did not find it worth their while to do so. The figures will show that of the 90,000 persons—or 87,000 odd—signing on at the labour exchanges, at least 9,000 are of the type I have just described. They are additional persons who were in being during the lifetime of the Coalition Government but who had no reason for signing on because they would not get the benefits that they receive now.

Will Deputy Briscoe not agree that 4,000 who were then signing on, have now joined the Army?

I will deal with the matter as I know it.

That is an absurd contention. The people who joined the Army are young men who were never on the unemployed register.

Are other people not doing their work?

Deputy Briscoe without interruption.

I want to come to the figures of what are called "unemployed." I notice that Deputy O'Donnell is leaving the House now— just as I am doing my best to give him the figures. I believe he would be afraid to hear them. It would spoil his style if he knew the facts. There are certain people who cannot deliberately distort facts. Therefore, it is best not to know them.

The average numbers of people on the live register, taking the country as a whole, were: in 1948, 61,900; in 1949, 61,000; in 1950, 53,800; in 1951, 51,600 and in 1952, 60,800. Since then there have been added the additional types that I have referred to. I want to say categorically that to my own knowledge, and, I am sure, Deputy Dockrell to his knowledge, knows it to be a fact that very many of our people who were previously employed in England have now come home and are to-day signing at our labour exchanges.

I do not know it.

Well, you must be a very happy person to be left in such peace as not to be approached by those who have come home.

It is nothing to those who come to me and who are on the point of leaving.

The Deputy admits that some have come home. I am glad that my reminder does bring that fact to his mind. We know that that is the position—that numbers of those who have come home are signing at our labour exchanges, and are getting their unemployment benefit here as a result of the reciprocal arrangement which permits them to draw unemployment benefit when they come down here from across the Border. To what extent, or number, that fact can be assessed I cannot say exactly, but I hope that the Department of Social Welfare will soon establish those figures and produce them for us sothat we will know what we are talking about.

We had Deputy Blowick here recently almost getting an attack as a result of the excitement which he had engendered in himself when talking about a reduction in employment in forestry, and of the numbers of people who were being sacked.

When did I say that?

Does the Deputy not remember recently in this House——

I see. That is all right.

You do remember it, then. I would be the last person in this House deliberately to misquote or distort what any Deputy had said, but I distinctly remember Deputy Blowick almost crying tears for the persons who had lost their employment in afforestation since Fianna Fáil came back to office. The Deputy also pleaded with us not to let afforestation, as a scheme, sink by the method of planting a less acreage. The Deputy agrees that is so. Has the Deputy taken the trouble to ascertain what are the actual facts? These are the facts, and I am putting them on record again. I challenge any Deputy over there to say or prove that they are wrong. In 1950, the numbers employed on a forestry programme were 2,346.

Is that the Dáil Debates you are quoting from?

I am quoting figures that have been ascertained from the Department concerned, and if the Deputy thinks that I am going to be wrong in a single digit I invite him to put down a question and I will apologise. I am telling him that these are the facts. In 1950, there were employed in afforestation 2,346 people. The number in 1951 was 2,786, and in 1952, 3,453. Up to the present, to 1953, the number employed is 3,612.

If the inter-Party Government were in power there would be about 10,000 employed.

That is the attitude of mind of the people opposite: tell thepeople first that the numbers employed have been reduced, and, if they believe that, it will then save you saying: "Oh! if they have been increased we would employ more." Is not that the mentality?

Will you give the 1947 figures?

The Deputy should allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech without interruption.

I have not the 1947 figure or the 1948 figure.

Of course you have not.

The Deputy should not forget that he was one of what is now called the inter-Party Government, as distinct from the Coalition group, who stood for a programme of reafforestation to such an extent that we would be able to make petrol for the propulsion of our motor-cars from alcohol extracted from our surplus wood.

Hear, hear!

Deputy Blowick says "hear, hear", although he knows now, as a result of his three and a half years' experience as a Minister, that that is all "cod", and that it cannot be done.

I know no such thing.

The Deputy will have to allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech without interruption.

I submit, Sir, that it is not easy to contain oneself when one hears a responsible Deputy talking through his hat.

I take it that the Deputy's interjection is meant metaphorically, because, actually, I have not got a hat on my head.

So best for the hat that you have not, because, otherwise, the roof would be blown off it.

I want to tell the Deputy a little more about forestry since there has been so much talk about it here, talk which has obviouslybeen inspired either by somebody who means evil, not to us but to the Fine Gael Party, or which he has conjured up in his mind. He does not seem to understand what he is talking about, and maybe cannot read or write. I have given the figures with regard to those employed on afforestation work. Deputy Blowick then talked about forestry itself. Does he know that in 1950 we had 7,400 acres of new plantations laid down?

Would that not arise more properly on the Estimate for forestry? It is general financial policy that is discussed on this Vote.

I wonder is Deputy Briscoe trying to capture the idea that I had 8,500 acres planted in 1950?

The Deputy must restrain himself and allow Deputy Briscoe to proceed.

Deputy O'Higgins and those on the opposite side who have spoken on this Vote on Account, related it, as far as they could and as effectively as they could, to three particular items: employment, emigration and capital expenditure. I feel, Sir, that part of the Government's capital expenditure, even if it is only a small amount, is in afforestation.

I have allowed employment to be discussed in general terms, but Deputies should not come down to the particular acreage under forestry or matters of that kind which would be quite relevant on the Forestry Estimate.

If we postpone the discussion for another day perhaps Deputy Blowick, in the meantime, will look up the records and fortify himself with the exact figures. Deputy O'Higgins said that the reduction in employment since the change of Government had brought about the greatest crisis the State had ever had. I have proved by the figures I have given, and they are correct, that whatever crisis may exist, it certainlyis not because there are less people in employment than there were.

Deputy O'Higgins talked on the same lines as were adopted by his Leader. Deputy Costello is convinced that when the next Budget is produced there will be reliefs in taxation. Deputies on the opposite side of the House are nodding their heads as if they are in full agreement with that view. I do not know where Deputy O'Higgins got the figures or facts but he has summed up the situation in this way, that the Minister budgeted deliberately last year, with all the hardship that policy inflicted on the community, for a surplus of £10,000,000. According to Deputy O'Higgins, who has now gone into the matter very clearly and carefully, that surplus will not be much more than £4,000,000. On the one hand he says: "When we become the Government again, we will reduce taxation." He puts that as an attractive promise. In the next breath he says: "Fianna Fáil will reduce taxation," in the accent of a warning and a threat. What way does he want it? I can tell the House quite honestly that I have no idea as to what the next Budget will be like. I do not know where Deputy O'Higgins got his figures. He may be psychic and be able to read the crystal and tell us what he sees.

The writing on the wall.

Deputy O'Higgins referred to this Party as the Fianna Fáil Independent Coalition Party. He referred to it in that way as being a term of contempt. That, from a member of the House whose Party only became the Government because it entered into coalition with others. He seeks to escape from the contempt attaching to a Coalition Government by saying: "We, the inter-Party Government, are not a Coalition Government." Where will all this end? Does not Fine Gael recognise that they have never been returned in sufficient numbers of themselves to become a Government and, consequently, can never say that they commanded the support of the majority of the people, and that the only reason they were in office since they left officein 1932 was the accident of mathematics, which enabled them to form a Coalition Government? Even since Fianna Fáil was returned and assumed office, Fine Gael is going through a process of taking in, swallowing and digesting Independents.

That does not seem relevant to the Vote on Account.

I bow to the Chair, but it is as relevant as the reference by Deputy O'Higgins to the Independents whom he abused because they were supporting Fianna Fáil, and he was able to argue that this was a coalition because of that. However, a nod from the Chair and I will obey. When we talk of employment and unemployment in connection with those who are normally engaged on work, we must recognise that there are certain occupations in which there are seasonal changes. We have a very big meat-producing industry to-day, canning and the export of carcass meat. I am sure the Clann na Talmhan Deputies, representing farmers, must know that there are certain times in the year when the supply of cattle is such that the industry seasonally closes down. There is also a policy adopted by the Department of Agriculture to stop and limit production in these factories at certain periods of the year. There are, therefore, seasons when certain of these people would be out of work. We cannot alter that. There is seasonal occupation in the beet industry. In agriculture, as a whole, there are certain periods when all the available labour cannot be employed. Deputy O'Higgins talked at length about the Fianna Fáil policy. He did not say anything about the Clann na Talmhan policy or Clann na Poblachta policy. He said a lot about the Fine Gael policy. He warned Clann na Talmhan and everyone else that Fine Gael would be the next Government.

He said no such thing.

He did not tell us what the policy was. Deputy Costello told us that the full comprehensive and complete programme as to how to deal with the industry and economy of ourcountry was contained in a speech delivered at the Fine Gael Árd-Fheis. I am sorry I was not an invited guest and did not hear it.

Neither was Deputy Blowick.

I would give anything to see the Minister for Finance at it.

Deputy O'Higgins did not give us a single item of importance that we could grasp and compare what we are doing with what he would propose to do. We cannot say: "Is your suggestion better than ours or is our suggestion better than yours?" He says: "What you are doing is no good. We have the solution. We can end unemployment and emigration the moment we take over." If I were a member of the Opposition and if I knew the solution to these problems I would feel it my bounden duty to disclose it to the House and put it on record. If the Government would not accept the suggestion they could take the consequences and when a change came the remedy could be applied. I do not think it is fair to the country or the House to say: "We have a solution and when we become the Government we will apply it", and not tell us what it is. I do not think it is fair to the constituents who elected him for a Deputy to leave them, the House and the country in a dilemma, such as Deputy O'Higgins has left us in to-night.

Deputy O'Higgins referred to the Book of Estimates that appeared in 1927. I think he said the figure was about £24,000,000. Deputy O'Higgins did not tell the House that in 1927 the wages paid to the workers on the Shannon scheme were 24/- per week. That is just as relevant in a comparison with these days as the figure of the Estimates.

Seven shillings a barrel for the best white oats.

We have forgotten these things. The Deputies who made these statements seem to forget that there are people who remember the conditions that existed in the days they talk about. Of course Deputy O'Higginsgot out of it by saying, "Older members than I am will remember that". The young man does not remember; that is the escape hatch. But I am reminding him that, if it is correct to say that the Estimates in those days totalled £30,000,000, the wages paid on a State scheme were 24/-a week and, as Deputy Walsh says, there was a different price for oats and other agricultural commodities. There was also a different price for milk.

Twenty-six shillings a cwt. for pigs. These are things they do not want to hear.

Ten shillings for a calf.

Sixpence for a Blue-shirt.

Half a crown for a hairshirt.

Deputy Briscoe ought to be allowed to continue.

Fine Gael were in office for three and a half years. I deliberately say Fine Gael, because it was Fine Gael's policy that was mainly put into effect. Certainly it was not the policy of the Labour Party. It certainly was not the Clann na Talmhan policy. It was a compromise policy, but, in the main, it was a Fine Gael policy. That is what I think it was and I am sure many members of the Opposition will not disagree with me. They took over as a Government after 16 years of Fianna Fáil Government. In that 16 years an industrial development took place and an increase in the standard of living, notwithstanding the interruption of the war period and all the other difficulties which had to be contended with before the outbreak of the world war. The safety of the State and its people was maintained.

After this 1932 to 1948 period was over, the new inter-Party Fine Gael Government took over. Many promises had been made on which people were elected, not one of which was implemented. As Deputy O'Higgins correctly stated—this is the first thing I can give him credit for saying correctly; he probably did not realisethe significance of it—a policy was hurriedly devised and afterwards a long-term policy was devised after the take over.

A 17-point programme.

I have some of the points here. Many important developments took place in the previous 16 years. There were great hopes that as we were returning to normal the development policy laid down would be continued. We know what happened, I will not refer to it now, about killing certain developments between 1948 and 1951. We all know what they were. Since 1951, what has taken place in connection with industry? This is a report of progress in the last quarter of 1952: 18 factories or extensions of factories went into production; these included radios for export, biscuits, textiles, children's wear, food processing and canning. That represented definite and actual progress.

We heard some talk to-day about an industry in Mayo. We were asked when it was to start, what was the responsibility of the Government in getting it started in a hurry. The fact that did emerge was that this industry was only enabled to start because of a grant promised to private enterprise people after they had a certain amount of work done. An industry is being started and that is the main and important thing.

When we are talking of capital development as distinct from ordinary payments by the State which are not called capital expenditure, I do not know whether the Opposition is aware, although the country may be, that 17 harbours are being improved at a cost of £6,000,000. It may hurt the Opposition to know that the latest approved scheme for harbour work is at Wicklow.

You must be going to move the writ one of these days.

Are you getting uneasy?

I do not know whether it is permissible to talk of a particular scheme in relation to capital development.I wanted to deal in detail with the land rehabilitation or reclamation scheme and to give some figures, if I may.

I will allow the Deputy to proceed.

There has been a lot of unfair talk that this Government are trying to kill what was called the land reclamation scheme.

Or the Dillon scheme.

I will give you a present of that. The land reclamation scheme was introduced in this House with a banging of drums such as was never heard even in the North on the 12th of July. A sum of £40,000,000 was to be spent on the land in ten years. I do not know how that amount of money could be spent on that particular work in ten years. An effort was made to start that. Accusations are being levelled against the Government now that they are in fact reducing the employment content of that scheme and the amount of money made available for it.

That has been said and I take it it is believed by some of the Deputies on the Opposition Benches. It has been stated that both the labour content of that scheme and the amount of capital invested in it are being reduced. That has been repeated here time and time again. What are the facts? In 1950-1951 the amount of money spent on land improvement was £568,666. In 1951-52, after the return of Fianna Fáil, the figure was increased to £1,619,332 and in 1952-53 the figure was again increased to £2,463,906. Does anybody suggest in the face of those vast increases that less is being spent on this work and that less employment is being given? It is about time that the spokesmen for the Opposition who make these assertions here should recognise that there are members of their own Parties who live in parts of the country where the people can see with their own eyes what is happening and who in many cases are themselves the beneficiaries of improved conditions and improvedcircumstances as a result of increased capital expenditure by the State.

And who see the gangs being dismissed at the present time from land rehabilitation work.

Deputy Blowick is a very innocent man. If the Dublin Corporation is carrying out a housing scheme on a particular site in a particular area they employ on that work a certain number of men. When the houses are built and handed over to the tenants that employment ceases but houses are being built in other parts where the employment content is as great, though possibly different people may be employed.

Is that not wonderful?

Deputy Blowick should realise that when a scheme is finished the employment on that particular scheme must cease.

Why is a gang suddenly dismissed in the middle of a job?

That does not arise.

If the Deputy will tell me where that happened I will find out all about it.

The Deputy has been relevant up to now. I hope he will not go off the track at this stage.

I want to knock on the head the misleading information given to the House whether through ignorance or by way of progaganda. The suggestion was made that the Government deliberately slowed down the housing programme and that that affected the employment figures. What are the figures? The total number of houses completed in 1950 was 12,048; in 1951 it was 12,135 and in 1952 it was 13,018. How can it be suggested on those figures that there is in fact a slowing down of the housing programme with consequent disemployment of the people engaged in it?

I have been making a nuisance of myself to the present Minister for Finance pressing him over the last fouror five weeks to give me information by way of parliamentary question as to why the scheme to knock down and rebuild the greater portion of Dublin Castle has not been proceeded with. As a Deputy representing a Dublin constituency the Labour content in that scheme is of great importance to me. To-day I was told that if the partial scheme which had been approved by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1946 had been put into operation and not cancelled, as it was, by the inter-Party Government 100 skilled men would have been employed on the job and a certain number of unskilled men likewise. Deputy Alfred Byrne was a supporter of the inter-Party Government. He is not here this evening. He spends his time talking about the cost of living and unemployment, particularly the unemployment of the skilled worker who, he says has to leave our shores to find employment abroad. Why is he not here to-night to denounce the policy of the inter-Party Government of scrapping that scheme, apart from the fact that accommodation is needed to house our civil servants?

The presence or absence of a Deputy does not arise on the Vote on Account.

I am trying to relate the situation which confronts us at the moment. The main opposition to the Vote on Account before us is that the Fianna Fáil Government has brought about dislocation in everything in the nature of development that gave employment and that chaos, crisis and disemployment have followed. That is the main burden of the attack upon the Government. I am trying to show that the people who adopt that line of attack are those least qualified to do so, since they themselves are responsible for the unemployment that exists to-day. I am not saying they are running away from their responsibility. I am merely trying to put my finger on an actual instance to show how they, in their administration, can be held responsible now for the unemployment that exists in the City of Dublin and probably elsewhere too.

We have in this Vote on Accountparticulars of payments for extended health services. Those health services are very important, because they are germane to the welfare of our people. Deputies want a standard of living that will ensure good health for our people. Yet, they voted against the Health Bill, a Bill designed to achieve that object. It is the intention of our Government to keep our people physically fit, and for that reasons millions are being spent on various social and health services.

Deputy O'Higgins quoted a speech made by the present Minister for Finance as far back as 1927. Fianna Fáil made its first entrance into this House in August, 1927, and in the following November the present Minister for Finance, then Deputy McEntee, made a speech which was quoted to-night by Deputy O'Higgins. I wonder was it his purpose in his research back over the years from 1952 to 1927 to find something he could put his finger on in order to criticise the present Minister for Finance. If his performance could be directly laid to that very arduous labour of research, then we might be inclined to forgive him a lot of what he said to-night. Fianna Fáil were a Government for 16 years, beginning in 1932. They put into effect in a practical way all kinds of improvements and additions in order to raise the standard of living of our people, the employment possibilities and so forth. Deputy O'Higgins referred to something said in November, 1927, to adduce proof that Fine Gael should be returned at the next election.

Deputy O'Higgins invited us to resign. One of my colleagues said to him at the time: "Would not dissolution be more convenient than resignation?"

Either will do.

As the Taoiseach told the House when he was asked about that, Fianna Fáil will choose the moment when they will do that.

He was affected by a few by-elections before.

A Deputy

North Mayo?

North-West Dublin.

I do not intend to deal with all the items connected with agricultural production and assistance to agricultural production, but I would like to refer to one paragraph of my own little brief. Everything I say here I stand over. I challenge anybody to tell me what is in here is not correct, because this has been done not solely by me but is the result of research by people who are in a position to know the facts.

City politicians know nothing about agriculture. It is finance you are interested in.

I know this much: the land reclamation scheme was overhauled. Higher grants will be offered to farmers who do their own work. A supplementary grant, bringing the total spent in the year to a record figure, was passed at the end of the quarter. A total of 64,000 grants was approved for 300,000 acres during that period. That is progress.

I am not going to deal with land division. I did deal with forestry.

You do not know anything about forestry.

I apparently know as much as the Deputy, who was Minister for Forestry.

I was born in the centre of such activity as forestry. You are a city politician and you are only interested in finance.

Deputy Crowe is not angry with me.

You are just acting the comedian.

I do not think I would be able to do the comedian. Under every head in the various Departments of State one can see if one examines the position, development everywhere. There is rapid telephone development.

And expenditure.

A city Deputy has nopractical experience, not having been reared in the country.

Deputy Crowe will have an opportunity of contributing to the debate later.

I promise to remain silent while Deputy Crowe is speaking and I will listen with great interest. Deputy MacEoin says, by interjection, if you create more development you are spending more money. That leads me to the interjection by Deputy Browne when Deputy O'Higgins was speaking: Would he increase subsidies and reduce taxation? Perhaps Deputy MacEoin or Deputy Crowe will answer that?

Is the Deputy making a speech or asking questions?

He did not refer to Dr. Browne's intervention in the course of the speech of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I was here for the intervention by Dr. Browne in relation to Deputy O'Higgins. He was going to increase subsidies and reduce taxation side by side and was asked by way of interjection if that was the policy intended? Deputy MacEoin says if you engage in greater developments you must spend more money.

I was referring to greater expenditure for lesser results.

That puts a change on it.

No. You are developing £34,000,000 on the Vote on Account.

Does the Deputy know what is being done with that money?

That is only the price of a few horses.

In every Department of State there is live development taking place in industry, agriculture, fisheries, public works, housing, Gael-tacht development services, employment schemes, land division, forestry, health and tele-communications. In every one of those Departments there is increased expenditure, increased developmentand increased employment. What does the Opposition want us to do—stop development, stop this expenditure?

It is very easy for a Party that has never commanded even half a sufficient number in strength to form its own Government to shout to a Party that has been able by its own strength to command a Government, to get out. I do not know if the Fine Gael people would be so pleased if an election was put at their disposal.

I cannot see how we can discuss that matter.

We would like to hear Deputy Briscoe on that question.

The Deputies who have spoken have expressed the greatest horror at the result of their calculations that taxation will be reduced, as Deputy O'Higgins says, when the Budget is introduced. Why should Deputy O'Higgins or any other Deputy be afraid of or criticise a reduction in taxation? Should he not welcome it on behalf of the taxpayers and the citizens generally? Is it because the Deputy feels there might be an election and if taxation were reduced it would be to our credit? I do not know what the explanation is, but that is what the Deputy has announced for us.

Mr. O'Higgins

A £5,000,000 surplus.

I said that the Deputy claimed there would be nearly £5,000,000 as a surplus which would be used by the Minister for Finance to reduce taxation. I do not know where the Deputy got that information. I doubt if the Minister himself knows what the gap will be.

Mr. O'Higgins

Ask the Minister.

I do not think he could know, and nobody will know until the end of this month.

Mr. O'Higgins

We have a fair idea.

The Deputy made a few miscalculations in days gone by, and the Deputy had to go back to 1927 to quote the Minister.

Mr. O'Higgins

I should think I was very kind in skipping the intervening period.

Reference has been made to the steps taken to reduce the gap in the balance of trade and to cut down the adverse trade balance. I do not know that anybody making these references has clearly stated whether it is a good thing, a bad thing or a necessary thing to attempt to reduce the adverse trade balance. For my part, I would think it necessary where there is a large gap in the balance of payments, that steps should be taken to reduce that. For the calendar year, 1952, it is estimated that the adverse trade balance has been reduced by a sum in excess of £50,000,000. I challenge the Opposition to say whether that is good or bad.

Mr. O'Higgins

Very bad.

I should like to know why it is bad.

Mr. O'Higgins

Because it has caused unemployment.

The Deputy would like to see our total credit balance wiped out in a matter of four or five years, so that we would not have temporary unemployment but complete unemployment. The Deputy was not in the House when I read out the figures showing that there were more people in employment now than there were in the time of the Coalition Government.

Not at all. There are 90,000 idle.

Deputy Flanagan has the type of brain that nobody can educate in the ordinary things in life.

We must believe the figures.

I think very little of what Deputy Flanagan must believe.

You are repeating yourself. You are giving us a rehearsal, doing the comedian on it.

The Deputy should not refer to any Deputy in this House as a comedian.

I do not think Deputy Crowe believes that. He is probably in a state of mind when he feels conciliatory with everybody. He is quite happy.

You know as little about Deputy Crowe as I know about you.

If Deputy Crowe would cease making references to me, I would cease replying to him. Deputy O'Higgins says quite seriously that it is a bad thing to reduce the adverse trade balance.

Mr. O'Higgins

If it causes unemployment, yes.

I hope that when the time comes when Deputy O'Higgins can describe himself as one of the elders, to whom he referred to-night, he will look up his speech to-day and just ask himself if he was serious in saying that. Obviously if we do not reduce the adverse trade balance, our credit balance will be ultimately finally exhausted and if it is exhausted, as the result of an adverse trade balance, mainly on account of consumer goods, where will we have the money to repatriate for the capital expenditure schemes that Deputy O'Higgins said he had up his sleeve but of which he did not disclose even one? We are going to be here for some time longer I hope and, as the result of Fianna Fáil administration our reserves will be so protected that there will be some credit balance available on which we can draw for Deputy O'Higgins's capital expenditure schemes. If they are gone, whether that happens sooner or later, it will be bad for the country. It is true that if you suddenly bring about measures to reduce the adverse trade balance, and you keep out of the country some £50,000,000 worth of goods, you are retarding the velocity of the movement of money but that retarding of velocity may be felt only for a temporary period. Either these goods were needed or they were not needed. If they were needed, ways will be found to produce some of them,at first, and later, a good deal of them at home. That will save our credit balance abroad. We will have that credit balance available to provide for capital investment as the money is required.

Now we come to the Estimates themselves and the reference to the Budget. The Minister for Finance is accused of a heinous crime because he is attempting to have his books balanced in a manner in which the public can understand them. Deputy O'Higgins says, and so does Deputy Costello, that the balancing of the books is of no importance. The people who provide the money, so far as taxation and capital requirements, are concerned, will only do that if they have confidence that the balance sheet of the State is an honest balance sheet.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do you think the people believe that in regard to this Vote on Account?

If Deputy O'Higgins thinks he is doing the country a good service in attempting to raise a doubt in the minds of the people that the books of the State are cooked or dishonest——

Mr. O'Higgins

Cooked.

——then I make him a present of his method of attempting to gain office. Many countries have suffered disaster following dishonest methods of acquiring power.

The Deputy is a good judge of that.

Deputy Flanagan will keep his mouth shut while I am speaking.

Mr. O'Higgins

He will not.

That is for the Chair to say.

I am not going to give way to Deputy Flanagan in any circumstances or at any time. I am quite prepared to argue with anybody else who wishes to argue with me. I am trying to put the point so that it can be clearly read on the records, firstly, that it is a good thing to get back asfar as we can, to a policy of self-sufficiency and secondly, that we should try so to plan our trade that we can have a surplus, if possible, in the balance of trade. Certainly, if we were in a situation in which we could have a surplus, would it not be better to have it?

Mr. O'Higgins

No.

All I can say to Deputy O'Higgins is—he may be wrong or I may be wrong—that I have been always taught to believe that if this country sells more than it buys, it would be much better than if it buys more than it sells. Otherwise the time will come when it will not be able to buy anything because the people will not have any more money. That is the A B C of that particular type of transaction, as I know it.

You are a business man and he is a lawyer—that is the difference.

Mr. O'Higgins

You could achieve that by starving the people and exporting all the food. Do you think that would be a good thing?

The Deputy never made anything, bought anything or sold anything.

The Deputy did not truck in second-hand shares, like the Minister.

Three judges gave their opinion on Deputy Flanagan.

Mr. O'Higgins

And the people of his constituency also passed their judgment on him.

And the people passed their judgment on the Minister.

Deputy Briscoe is in possession and must be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. O'Higgins

On a point of order. That interruption by the Minister for Finance is, I submit, scandalous and is a breach of the privileges of the House.

There have been so many interruptions that it is very difficult for the Chair to hear what anybody says. Deputy Briscoe, without interruption.

Deputy O'Higgins says that we can only do it by starving the people.

Mr. O'Higgins

No. I did not say that.

The Deputy used the word "starve".

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy gave me permission to ask him a question which the Minister for Finance prevented me from doing.

Deputy Briscoe must be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

I understood that Deputy O'Higgins suggested to me that this method of preserving a good standard meant a continuance of the policy of spending in excess of our exports and that the only way we could change that would be by bringing about starvation. It is a long time since we had the Adrigole incident in this country. There is no sense in saying that, in the interests of a credit balance, the State will permit any of its citizens to starve. After all, it was the Fianna Fáil Party that introduced the social welfare legislation which gives benefits to people— benefits which did not exist pre-1932 and benefits which were not improved upon between 1948 and 1951, because they were thought to be sufficient.

We believe that if we can preserve our falling assets and can hold them until they can be utilised in capital investment at home, we will ultimately complete the programme that was envisaged. That, I take it, is something everybody wants to see accomplished, i.e., self-sufficiency in the country.

Now we come again to the Estimates. I do not understand the reference that the Estimates or the Budget need not necessarily be balanced as one would expect any balance sheet to balance. I think it is of the utmost importance that when a Government or a Government Department issue a figure—whether it be in relation to matters of finance or other matters—the figure, purporting to be a fact, should be honest so that people can say: "This figure is a fact." If we should have a situation in which a figure did not mean anything—a situation in which it would not matter whether you said this or that in regard to a sum of money or anything else—then nobody would believe anything, nothing would be accomplished and the confidence of the people in whatever Government might be in power would be completely destroyed.

Up to the present, this country has had a good reputation as regards its public affairs—not only its national affairs but also its local affairs. Local authorities who have the right or the power to borrow money for capital expenditure enjoy to-day a fairly good position both with regard to the State itself, that underwrites it, and those who subscribe and take up allotments.

I do not understand what is behind this approach to a Vote on Account. On the one hand, the suggestion is that taxation has reached its limit and is too high—but, on the other hand, if it is reduced, it is also wrong. You cannot have it both ways. I agree with the Taoiseach in his statement that he believes that taxation has reached its very limit. That is my belief also. I hope it will not be necessary to impose extra taxation on our people. I am not holding out any hope when I express the wish that there will be some alleviation in some direction——

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a safe bet. There will be. There is no doubt about it.

I hope the Deputy is right. Certainly, I will not walk into the Division Lobby and vote against a Budget that will reduce taxation— but maybe Deputy O'Higgins will. We have also to remember that every single thing that has been said about the cost of living has had no relation to the fact that, side by side with the increase in the cost of living, there have been increases—whether or not they are sufficient is another question —to our working people. Increases incosts follow increases in wages. That is bound to happen. I can speak of it only in reference to things of which I have experience. Take the Dublin Corporation, for example. Every time we give our workers an increase of 12/6 a week it means an extra 1/- on the rates. Every local authority that gives an increase of wages to its workers has to recoup that increase from the ratepayers. If the State wants to give increases to State employees it can do so only out of taxation.

In introducing the Vote on Account, the Minister explained a number of the larger figures that go to make it up. He pointed out increases in certain expenditure envisaged in the coming year as compared with previous years. I have listened to portion of one speech and to the whole of another speech this afternoon. I listened to Deputy J.A. Costello and to Deputy O'Higgins. I have heard nothing in those speeches that would make me question in my own mind anything contained in this Vote on Account.

I again repeat that to attack the Vote on Account on the grounds that there is less employment in the country is not correct. I have shown that the fact that a greater number of people are signing on at the labour exchanges is not because less people are employed: it is because a greater number of people are now available. I dispute the contention by Deputy O'Higgins that emigration has reached a higher figure than ever before.

It is quite true.

Deputy Dockrell knows that he is not in a position to say that that is true because nobody can have the figures for a time, yet. They are not available. I can give the Deputy the figures on emigration up to a certain period. It is not correct to say that these figures are greater to-day than they were before. When Deputy Dockrell or anybody else says that they are greater than ever before and that he knows it to be true then all I can say is that it is wishful thinking on his part. He is guessing that it is true but he has no concrete evidence to prove that it is true. I have figures here of total emigration for the years 1947,1948, 1949 and 1950. In 1947, 10,000 people officially emigrated; in 1948, 28,000; in 1949, 34,000 and in 1950, 41,000.

"Come back to Erin."

Those were in the years when the inter-Party Government were inviting emigrants to come back and to take up posts at home.

These are their own figures. I am prepared to accept the figures published by any State office as being correct. It is not correct to say that emigration has reached the highest figure ever. How can that be argued? I referred to this matter on another occasion and it was then suggested to me by, I think, Deputy MacBride that the population of the country, according to the last census, showed an increase and not a decrease. It was suggested that was due to natural growth, over and above emigration. I should like to have proof from any member of the Opposition that the figure for emigration is higher to-day than ever it was. I should also like to have any member of the Opposition refute by evidence that there are less people in employment to-day than there were in the years 1948 to 1951. We can explain the figures and the cause for the increase in the numbers now signing on.

What are the reasons?

I gave them before. The Deputy was not here and I do not want to repeat everything that I said earlier. I also said that Deputy Byrne was not here and I am sorry that he was not. When the Government takes in hands large-scale building schemes, I hope that there will be approval from the Opposition for them, particularly in the City of Dublin. There will be a large labour content in those schemes and they will continue for a long period.

In Dublin?

In Dublin or Cork or wherever you can get them.

Dublin Castle?

I think it would be agood thing if every Deputy concerned himself with his own constituency. I know that Deputy O'Donnell concerns himself with fishing operations in his constituency. He is quite right, and I do not blame him for that. Deputy O'Donnell should not blame me for trying to induce the Government to have large-scale schemes carried out in Dublin which will mean employment for large numbers.

Such as pulling down Dublin Castle?

Pulling down Dublin Castle? The Deputy knows as well as I do that there is necessity to do that. It is work that needs to be done. He knows the castle, I am sure, as well as I do. I am sure he used to be in and out there when the courts were sitting there.

If I did not know it some of my forbears did.

The Deputy is taking me up in the wrong. I did not mean that at all. I was referring to Dublin Castle when the courts were sitting there, and when the Four Courts building was not in use. I did not mean any personal reflection at all—such as knowing it physically.

I understand.

That is what I meant. The point is that rebuilding there would give employment. I do not believe that Deputy Byrne knew when he was supporting the Coalition Government that, in opposing the rebuilding of Dublin Castle, he was, in fact, keeping hundreds of skilled workmen in Dublin, the men he was talking about the other night, out of employment.

Mr. A. Byrne

They were not unemployed in those years.

We had not enough of them then.

Mr. A. Byrne

We had to send to England for them.

What about the 41,000 that went away in 1950?

Does Deputy Byrne believe that, during the period of the Coalition Government, there were no unemployed in the City of Dublin?

Mr. A. Byrne

I did not say that.

I hope the Deputies opposite now recognise that employment could be given to a great number of skilled and unskilled workers on schemes such as I have referred to. I suggested that could have been done three years ago, and that Deputy Byrne did not know when he was supporting the Coalition Government that he was keeping hundreds of those skilled workmen out of employment.

What Deputy Byrne referred to the other night was the shortage of skilled labour then.

Does Deputy Dockrell mean that there was a shortage of skilled labour in 1948, 1949 and 1950?

I cannot make out Deputy Dockrell. Outside the House, he is quite a sane, honest to God man, but inside the House he will say anything. Surely, Deputy Dockrell is not saying that there were no skilled operatives available during the period of the Coalition Government.

There was a shortage of skilled operatives.

And that there were none available then for knocking down and rebuilding parts of Dublin Castle?

The Deputy does not know the building trade.

I know as much about the availability of materials and labour for the building trade, as a result of my experience as a member of the Dublin Corporation, as Deputy Dockrell or any other Deputy. I say that we had no shortage of labour. We had a shortage of material at one time, from 1948 onwards, but as material became available to us we were able to employ workers. There is no use in the Deputy saying that there were no skilled workers available. Does DeputyDockrell want someone to put down a question to ascertain how many of that type of person were signing on in those years? We know that they were available. If Deputy Dockrell does not know, and if he doubts what I am saying, I invite him to read his own election literature issued in the 1948 election. He will see that one of the reasons he gave for seeking the support of the people was to find employment for the very people who, he now says, were not there.

We did encourage them to come back.

Does the Deputy believe that? I am afraid that, as a result of that kind of mentality, it is becoming useless to talk here at all. I have often wondered why it is that Fine Gael always come back to this House with an insufficient number of members to form a Government. I have now come to the conclusion that the reason is that the public generally must regard them as I do now.

We feel that the situation in the country is such that it demands one action from the Government, and that is that it should remove itself from office and seek the opinion of the people who want a general election. They proved that at the by-election in North-West Dublin. The Government was represented in it by an exceptionally strong candidate, and yet the Government got the greatest licking that it has received since the Party was formed. As a result of the policy put into effect over the last year and a half by the present Minister for Finance, we have to-day a record number of unemployed. That is so, no matter how Deputy Briscoe may try to juggle with the figures. The situation is such that Deputy Dr. Browne this evening was forced to tell the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that he could not excuse the figure of 90,000 unemployed.

The intervention of Deputy Browne was brought about by the manner in which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was seeking to gloss over the situation that affects the country to-day. The unemployment which existsis a result of the financial policy this Government has been pursuing for the past year and a half. It was brought in earlier in Britain for a particular purpose. It had the desired effect there of making available men who were required for the army and auxiliary services. This country needed more men in productive work. We are now told that the action of the Government last year has had the result that the people are now taxed to the limit of their capacity and that, consequently, the Government cannot hope to tax them until they produce more, that if the people oblige by increasing production in agriculture and industry, the Government will be in a position to do what they have always done, that is, to dig their hands down as deep as they can in the pockets of the farmer, the worker and everybody who is seeking to eke out a livelihood in this country.

The result is the figure, which is undeniable, of 90,000 unemployed. It has been said that the figure is somewhat inflated by reason of certain changes in the Department of Social Welfare. Yet, when a question was put down to the Taoiseach on 4th March, the reply he gave was that the number of unemployed under the heading "building, contracting and works of construction" amounted to 14,656, in mid-January, 1951. That figure jumped to 16,136 in mid-January, 1952. What change was made in the Department of Social Welfare that caused that increase in that 12 months? There is the alarming figure of 21,581 under that heading in mid-January, 1953.

But the industrial analysis states that that figure is caused by slackness in the building trade and is not as a result of any attraction for people to register. These people are defined as people who were formerly engaged in building, contracting and works of construction. Is it not a fact that there is to-day a considerable slowing down in the building trade? Let us compare some of the figures. The monthly average number of houses completed in 1950 by local authorities was 670, and in 1952, 500—a reduction of 170. The monthly average number of such houses in progress in 1950 was 10,430; in 1952, 8,997. The monthly average number ofskilled men employed on local authority housing schemes in 1950 was 6,024; in 1952, 5,061. The total average number of men thus employed in 1950 was 13,392; in 1952, 10,677. I am sorry Deputy Briscoe has not waited to hear these figures and to compare them with his, and I would like to find out how he could arrive at the figures which he presented to the House.

Let us proceed to another section which could usefully employ labour in this country. We come to agriculture. In mid-January, 1951, the number of persons on the live register under the heading, agriculture, was 25,313. It increased to 26,408 in 1952 and, this year, to 30,467—an increase of 4,059. Is there an indication there that all the progress which we would all desire is taking place in agriculture? Is not there a reduction of 4,000 in the number employed in agriculture in the last 12 months?

On a point of order. From what is the Deputy quoting?

The Deputy has asked for the quotation. The quotation is column 2021, Volume 136, No. 14, Dáil Debates, and the date is 4th March, 1953. The question was put by Deputy MacBride to the Taoiseach and the reply was given by the Parliamentary Secretary. Is the Deputy satisfied now? In the distributive trades, in 1951, the figure was 5,211; it was increased to 5,277 in 1952 and to 6,332 in 1953. I will not weary the House by going into all these figures. They are available to every Deputy.

It is clear to everybody, as Deputy Browne said this evening, that the present figure of 90,000 unemployed is alarming, and leaves no room for complacency. It has been said that some of the increase is due to seasonal unemployment but, when a comparison is made of the same month and the same week each year that would not appear to be the case. Does not every Deputy receive periodic reports giving the trend as well as the comparative figures for corresponding weeks and have not we all noticed that the trend has changed, that it is now of adefinite pattern, that as week succeeds week the number is mounting?

It should not be a matter of pleasure to the Government to know that the only effort they could make towards solving this problem was to make it more inviting for men to turn up at the labour exchange. It would be far better for the country if they were provided with the employment they want. The men do not want to be lined up there in queues, drawing dole. They would prefer work. We claim that the position that now exists is a result of the financial policy of the Government. The people who are unemployed, the people in the lower paid groups, the people with small salaries, the people with small farms, who have had to face the impact of a 22 point increase in the cost of living in the last year are, naturally, put to the pin of their collar to make ends meet.

22 points in the last year?

Does the Parliamentary Secretary deny that there was an increase in the cost of living of that amount?

Not of 22 points. 11 points in the last year of inter-Party Government.

There has been a 22 point increase. Is that right? Do you deny that?

Yes. There is no harm in chancing it anyhow.

Give the reference.

Perhaps before the Deputy concludes the reference will be found, and perhaps the Deputy will find it as distasteful as Deputy Cogan found the reference.

From February to May, 1951, there was an increase of seven points.

Deputy Briscoe referred to seasonal unemployment caused at the moment in one section which is giving valuable employment, that is, the canning trade. He says that the cause of it is that cattle arenot available, that the raw material is somewhat restricted. Would it not be well to examine the reasons for that?

In my constituency in 1947 we had an abattoir where all classes of young cattle were slaughtered indiscriminately. It did not matter whether they were white heads or Shorthorns, dual-purpose animals, or animals intended for beef, they all met the same fate. They were exported during the period that Fianna Fáil was in office and, were it not for the fact that the business was stopped and stopped quickly, when Deputy Dillon became Minister for Agriculture, the number employed in the canning industry to-day would be much fewer.

The question of the balance of trade was dealt with by Deputy Briscoe. He referred to the fact that the improvement which had taken place was made possible because of a restriction of imports. The Government are anxious for an increase in exports. The live-stock industry can be thanked for a considerable increase in that respect. We must realise that, with the market there is for meat, our live-stock industry can be developed and made to serve a useful purpose. That is something which the Government now realise. They did not always hold that view. They gloried at one time in trying to achieve the death of that industry.

The Deputy who has just concluded is an ardent advocate of luxury building. He is quite incensed at the decision of the inter-Party Government to stop certain plans for the reconstruction of Dublin Castle and other buildings. If work is resumed on these schemes, how much will it contribute to improvement in the balance of payments position? How much will it assist in reducing the number of unemployed in the town of Mallow and throughout the country? I suggest that if the £250,000 by which the sum for the Local Authorities (Works) Act has been reduced was made available to local authorities far greater employment would be made available for the people in the country districts. The people who are flying from the land would be kept here. They would notbe enticed to leave the countryside if work were made available for them. Their work would result in increasing production for which the Minister for Finance appealed so strongly last night.

We do not think that it is an incentive to increase production to extract as much as possible from the pockets of the taxpayers. In recent months a raid has been made on the lower-salaried people in this country by the income-tax people. On every item which the people have had to buy in the past 12 months they have had to pay excessive taxes because of the policy of the Minister for Finance. That has brought about a situation in which the Taoiseach and his Ministers now indicate that the ceiling has been reached, that they cannot tax any further and that the position is that certain compensations have to be made to make up for the raids which have been made on the people's pockets, the raids by way of direct taxation, the direct raid on the housewives' purse by the withdrawal of the subsidies, and the indirect taxation which has resulted in consequence of the great increase in the cost of living. I maintain that the cost of living is still increasing, that the action of the Government in introducing this policy has had a snowball effect, that people are passing on to the consumer the expenses which they have to bear in their business.

The Minister for Defence came in here with a Supplementary Estimate which was inflated by increases in the cost of items in consequence of the Budget which the Minister introduced last year. There was a considerable increase in the price of oils and petrol and other items. I contend that the business people who have to meet this extra expenditure are passing it on to those who are buying the goods. Eventually, it comes down to this, that the people day after day are meeting these new commitments but they have not got any compensation to make up for the difference.

The most valuable section of the community is the agricultural section. What increase have the farmers got to meet the costs which are pouring downon them, particularly as a result of the withdrawal of the subsidies? The Agricultural Wages Board gave an increase of wages to the agricultural labourers, which was well deserved, as a result of the increased cost of living. Private firms have given increases to their workers because of the increase in the cost of living. The Government cannot give an increase to the Civil Service because they will have to find the money. But the business people are able to recoup themselves for any increases given to their employees by passing it on to the general public. Where is the farmer, who is producing foodstuffs for all of these people, to find the money?

Yesterday the Minister for Agriculture was extremely slow to give information to this House as to what the result of the recent development in the dairying industry has been. He was courageous enough to raise the price of butter. This Government are very courageous when it comes to putting on taxation and permitting prices to rise, but they are not so courageous when it comes to finding a solution as to where the money is to be found for these extra costs.

The people in the dairying area are awaiting a definite announcement as to what they are to get to meet the increased costs. They do not want to be lectured by people like the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The agricultural community deeply resent being told by people such as that Minister that they must produce more; that they are falling down on the job.

When the farmers' and cottiers' wives produce more turkeys, what happens to the price? They are afraid to produce more unless they get some long-term guarantee. This country will not get the increased production which it requires if people compare the production costs in other countries with the costs in this country and if they say to that section of our people: "You are falling down on your job because you require higher prices for your produce than people in other countries." We say to them: "Hands off that section of the community. They should not be required to carry any other section on their backs. Give them theraw materials at the lowest possible price and then possibly they will come around to your way of thinking." While the farmers have to pay an exorbitant price for fertilisers in order to satisfy the Minister for Industry and Commerce they cannot do that. With a £3 levy on the hide, that industry in which Deputy Briscoe professes to be so interested cannot very well prosper. If people did not have to meet all these commitments possibly they would be able to answer the Minister's call much more readily.

The general feeling throughout the country is that the Government has lost complete control of administration. At the same time as they call upon the people to cut their cloth according to their measure they present to the country a Book of Estimates on the cover of which appears a record figure. They are proposing to spend more than ever before. Let no one think that the effects of taxation are not felt outside the walls of Government buildings and that they do not fall upon the local authorities throughout the country.

This week the local authorities are trying to strike a rate commensurate with the capacity and willingness, to use the Minister's own phrase, of the people to pay in order to meet the increased costs consequent upon the results of the last Budget. They will not be able to strike a lower rate. These councils have to meet wage increases. The cost of the voluntary hospitals and the domiciliary institutions has increased over the past year because of the increased cost of food. There is an increase in unemployment. There is an increase in emigration.

There is only one remedy the people can seek and that is a change of Government. The people in one constituency were given an opportunity of voicing their opinion of the Government and they voiced it in no uncertain fashion. The Government should realise as a result of that decision by the people that they have no mandate from the people for the policy they have initiated or the programme they have presented to this House. There is no comprehensive policy to-day.

Independent Deputies were in favour of the retention of the food subsidies. In fact one Independent Deputy advocated an increase in food subsidies. For that reason we think we are making a legitimate case when we say the Government is acting contrary to the intentions of the electorate. This Government never had a clear majority. It secured the support of Independents who sought election to the House on the inter-Party Government policy. If the people throughout the country got the same opportunity as the people did in North-West Dublin I think we would find a quick solution to our present troubles. It has ever been the policy of the Fianna Fáil Government to dig in deeper and deeper into the earnings of the worker, the income of the farmer and the turnover of the businessman. It has always been the policy of that Party to restrict the incentive to increased production and to the provision of more employment for our people, to restrict the incentive to maintain a higher standard of living. The results of that policy are apparent to-day.

It was strange to hear the Minister in such a subdued tone last night. He has certainly changed his approach from the time he made so many strong predictions, not to mention the Manor Street prophecy. Last night he referred to his sympathy with the capacity and willingness of the people to pay. I wonder how he will ascertain the willingness of the people to pay? It reminds me of a peculiar insertion in the form of attestation filled in by the L.D.F.: "Do you agree to accept such gratuities as shall arise from time to time?" When the Minister is sending out his demands for income-tax will he add another question to the many already on that form asking the taxpayer is he willing to contribute to the coffers of the Minister for Finance? If the taxpayer is not willing what remission will the Minister give him?

The people will not pay much heed to the Minister's professed sympathy with their willingness and capacity to pay the exorbitant sums he proposes to extract from them by every device he can possibly command. TheTaoiseach and other members of the Government have stated that we have now reached a position in which it is impossible to ask the people to pay more by way of taxation until such time, of course, as the people produce more and are well-off enough to bear further impositions. The Government should remember that there are sections of our community who have got no relief of any kind over the last 18 months. Not every section is organised to make its case quickly and effectively. Many sections who are not in a position to make themselves heard have been called upon to pay too much. One drastic feature of the present policy is that the simple luxuries have been heavily taxed. Food subsidies have been withdrawn. The result is that those who work hardest have to pay most. The increases in the price of bread, butter, tea and sugar have created a very grave problem for people whose incomes are not commensurate with the increases that have taken place.

I represent a constituency which is not an industrial one. Up to this we have known very little unemployment. To-day the principal town in that constituency has a record number of unemployed, caused by the recession in the building trade. The Government has been remiss in permitting that situation to develop. Our people in the rural areas have been left abandoned by the closing down of work under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, a measure which gave very valuable employment in those areas.

Money has been diverted recently into channels which will not solve the unemployment problem and which will bring no relief in a situation that urgently demands relief. It is intended to spend more money this year on the purchase of warlike stores. That money could be more usefully employed in ensuring that young men trained in the use of arms will be provided with a means of livelihood for themselves and their families. There is definite responsibility on whoever is in office to ensure that the largest possible sums of money are immediately directed into schemes which willgive the greatest amount of employment. It would be desirable that all questions which are in any doubt should be cleared up.

In relation to agriculture, the developments in that sphere in recent years have been such that the agricultural section of the community is recognised as contributing most to the nation's welfare. We are approaching the position that we cannot depend on outside sources to supply us with raw material. It is a strange thing that the ex-Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, was reviled for not having pursued a policy of self-reliance in this country. Yet his policy has been responsible for the expansion of the growing of feeding barley, which is to-day contributing in a very large measure towards the increased production of bacon and towards the fact that farmers are to-day able to carry more live stock on their holdings. It also means that we have eliminated the monopoly which existed in regard to grain-growing. Such a commodity as feeding barley which was required for the feeding of our live stock and could only be grown in particular areas, can now be grown practically anywhere in the country. Consequently, people are to-day in a position to produce possibly much cheaper than they would if depending on outside sources. This year we see some progress being made in the amount of that particular crop sown.

So far I have not heard any Government Deputy adverting to any spectacular increase in the acreage of tillage since the present Minister for Agriculture took over. From that we must draw the conclusion that they are not happy in that respect. Certainly if the farmers are given the opportunity to work, to produce as much as they wish to produce and are afforded the markets which they require for the sale of their live stock, we can look to the future with some confidence in that department.

At column 2057, Volume 136, of the Official Report of the 4th March, 1953, the Minister for Agriculture informed us that there is now no necessity to fix a price for crops because live stock is making such a price. What a tributeto the inter-Party Government! If the people are given the raw materials at the lowest possible prices and if they are afforded the prices they desire, they will answer the present call for increased production. However, they must be given an assurance in regard to prices. Too often we find it difficult to convince people who say to us: "If we do that prices will fall." We must give them some long-term guarantee that prices will not fall and force them out of production. Recent happenings in relation to poultry is causing considerable concern.

An Leas-Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going into detail on the agricultural question. He should reserve those remarks for the main Estimate.

I merely intended to put a spotlight on that section of our people who are contributing most to our economic progress. It is in that direction we must look as holding the greatest possibilities for reducing our unemployment numbers and bringing to the people a higher standard of living. If the farmers cannot point to higher figures for production it is because for some years past they have been engaged upon much capital outlay. Many people are mechanising their holdings. An industry would claim credit for the natural disturbance that would be created if they were putting in new plant and a farmer is certainly deserving of as much consideration.

With the expansion of rural electrification and with the fine developments that are taking place among our young farmers we can depend on the agricultural community to pull their weight. They do not deserve in any way the strictures that have been laid upon them by some members of the present Government, strictures which might be regarded as justifiable by people who might not be fully aware of the conditions with which these people must contend.

I wish to put on record in this House the feelings of my constituents in regard to our economic position. Theyfeel that the difficulties now being encountered cannot be overcome without a change of Government. Travelling in buses, in trains and everywhere we go we hear everybody asking the one question: "When are you going to put them out?" The reply which was given so effectively in North-West Dublin will soon be repeated as effectively elsewhere in the country. As has happened in the past Fianna Fáil will hearken to the strong protests of an incensed electorate at having to bear a burden of taxation which they were assured at election times would never again be imposed. The present Minister for Finance had to guarantee that in his constituency and the Tánaiste was brought down to the City of Cork to give that guarantee so that Fianna Fáil would return their candidates at the last election.

We feel that the people who were fooled by these guarantees and who were so quickly disillusioned, are extremely anxious to seize the opportunity of recording their disapproval and of electing a Government which will carry out the programme which it presents to the electorate before the election and not afterwards.

I would like, first of all, to repeat a question I asked on the token Vote for the Taoiseach's Department a short time ago—that is, briefly, what is the Government's policy, and if some leader of the Government can tell us what the policy is, would that same speaker or would the Taoiseach give us an idea when the results of that policy will be shown? Everybody in this House will admit that the numbers of unemployed reflect very clearly the state of the country, and if we are to have regard for the figures that are published every week, all of us would admit that the situation, as reflected by these figures, is very alarming. As far as I can see, the front bench members of the Government have not expressed any alarm. They have not expressed the concern that they should have or should express when they have regard to a figure of 90,000 unemployed.

We hear of no proposals as to how that situation is to be alleviated. Noproposals of any kind in regard to schemes that would reduce the number substantially have been put forward by members of the Government. Instead we get parliamentary replies from Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries which do nothing more than explain that the abnormal increase in the numbers of unemployed is due to the operation of the Social Welfare Act. I think we can all agree that the Act has had a certain effect in increasing the number of unemployed but it is infinitesimal as compared with the abnormal increase over the general average of the last three, four or five years. I wonder, and the people I represent especially wonder, when the alleged beneficial results of Fianna Fáil administration in the last 18 months or two years will be shown. Deputy Burke, in the course of his remarks—I took a note of them—said that the policy of Fianna Fáil was designed to help our children's children. It seems to me that that was a correct summing up of the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party, but I do not think it is any consolation to the people at present unemployed, or to those who have been compelled to emigrate, to know that Fianna Fáil policy is designed to help our children's children. While the Government may be chiefly concerned with the welfare of these unborn children, I think most of us would be more directly concerned with those who are trying to live in the country at the present time.

As I have said, the state of the country economically is reflected fairly accurately by the figures of the unemployed. In regard to this question of unemployment there seems to be a certain attitude amongst some public men as to who should bear responsibility for the unemployed. It seems that some members of local authorities especially want to waive entirely their responsibilities for the maintenance of the people who happen to be unemployed in their respective areas. To my mind that is a callous and unchristian attitude. It reveals anything but a national outlook because I believe that the primary duty of public representatives is to provide for the unemployed people of the country.I believe that members of local authorities should not seek to evade their responsibility towards the people who happen to be unemployed in their respective areas, so long as there is work to be done, roads to be built, houses to be constructed, or while public work generally for which they have responsibility needs to be done.

Public representatives in the performance of their functions owe a certain duty to the unemployed. There is an outcry at the moment, possibly justified in many respects, against increases in rates but I am not one of those people who get hot and bothered about protests against an increase in the rates because my experience has been that it is those sections within the functional area of a local authority who are always clamouring to have roads repaired and other works carried out, who are the first to raise their voice in protest against any increase in rates. The question has often presented itself to me in this way. Say, for instance, there is a proposed increase of 2/- in the £ on the rates. That may seem a big increase to many people but even if we take a man whose valuation is £50, the increase would mean that he would merely have to pay £5 extra in his rates for the year. If he happens to be one of those to whom an abatement or a remission of rates would apply, the increase would be less than £5—either one-third or two-thirds less, I am not quite sure which.

A ratepayer of that type would be regarded in my county as being one of those having the highest valuations and although he would strongly object to paying £5 extra on rates in order to provide employment on many desirable schemes in the county he would probably have no hesitation in paying £20 for an overcoat, although he might be able to get one almost just as good for £15. Again he might be the type of person who is in the habit of going to the dogs or attending race meetings, and he would think nothing of gambling £10 or £20 on a race but ask him to pay a little more in rates to provide improved roads or to enable houses to be built for people who are not in a position to pay for such houses themselves, or to provide necessarysewerage or waterworks schemes and he will cry out as if he were asked to pay an extra £1,000. I am not at all advocating that rates should be increased but, generally speaking, if a county is well administered and if it is necessary to carry out schemes such as I have mentioned, I believe rating is the most equitable system for raising the necessary moneys to carry out these works. We must also appreciate that humble and poorly paid cottage tenants also make their contribution to the rates—indeed make as big a contribution in relation to the property they hold and the income they receive as any other section of the community.

So far as I can see or learn from the speeches made here by the Taoiseach and the members of his Government, there does not seem to be any immediate prospect for the people now registered as unemployed. I can say that the morale of the people in the last six months has been rudely shattered. The position to them seems to be hopeless. So far as my own home town of Wexford is concerned, I can say in all sincerity that the number of people laid off from week to week is increasing. In the spring-making industry, I think 24 men were laid off last night.

The nationally-known firm of Pierce's of Wexford is going through difficult times. Builders' providers have let off people. Needless to remark, as everybody knows well, road work under most county councils seems to be at a virtual standstill. That picture is not peculiar to my constituency. I think that every Deputy in this House could paint the very same picture so far as the area which he represents is concerned.

It would seem that, in the past few days, a campaign has been started— headed by the Minister for Finance— to endeavour to cut the Estimates. If that means cutting out wasteful expenditure, then I think it will have the support of every member of the House. I fear, however, that if this campaign which was initiated some days ago, which was continued last night by the Minister for Finance, and which is being maintained to-day, ispursued, and that if it meets with any success at all, there will be a going back, as far as this country is concerned, in the matter of the building up of essential things. How can any Minister for Finance, or how can a House of Parliament such as this, subscribe to the cutting of Estimates for the provision of schools, for the provision of clinics and hospitals, for the provision of houses and good harbours, for the provision of forests, water supplies and sewerage schemes? All these things need to be done— especially as, in the past few weeks, we have heard evidence from the Ministers in charge of the Departments concerned in regard to the services which I have mentioned.

The Minister for Education painted a bad picture in regard to the need for schools. In his Second Reading speech on the Health Bill, the Minister for Health told us very clearly that approximately half of the number of dispensaries in the country need to be rebuilt. All of us are aware, or should be aware, of the need which still exists for thousands of houses in Dublin City and in the country in general. Every one of us, and especially those of us who live near the seaboard, are aware of the necessity for good harbours. Every Deputy has subscribed to the view that we must engage in a big campaign of afforestation. Water and sewerage systems in parts of the country are primitive, where they exist at all, and for many years to come it will be necessary to provide money for these essential services.

People are scared by the size of the bill which is presented to the House. I think it is approximately one-third of the £100,000,000. That represents an increase of approximately £48,000,000 since 1946-47. We must all bear in mind that we were left a legacy of deficiencies. We were left a legacy of a bad housing situation, of bad water supply and sewerage schemes, of a bad hospital situation. When a native Government took over in this country in 1922 all these services needed to be made up. The efforts of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government and the Fianna Fáil Government up to 1939 did not, and could not, repair the damageor, should I say, the neglect of a foreign rule. There was a lull between the years 1939 to 1945 or 1946 because of the circumstances which then existed. Houses were not built and various other public works, all of which were very necessary, could not be engaged in. We are now trying to make up that leeway. In 1947 or 1948 the House agreed that 100,000 houses needed to be provided. I do not think we are near the completion of that job yet. So long as it needs to be done, it is futile and dishonest for anybody to think that, other than by cutting out wasteful and extravagant expenditure, this bill of £100,000,000 can substantially be reduced. My complaint would be that not enough money is provided for certain necessary schemes.

I think that one of the greatest paradoxes of this particular Book of Estimates is that, in respect of urban and rural relief schemes, there is a reduction of £80,000. I always believed that these urban and rural relief schemes were for the purpose of relieving unemployment. I cannot reconcile a reduction under this particular sub-head having regard to the figure of 90,000 unemployed. Neither can I reconcile the attitude of the Minister for Finance, or of the Government in general, with a reduction of £250,000 in the amount of moneys for drainage under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

It is significant that that is the very same sum of money that is being paid for the well-ridden Tulyar. That will appear very significant to the many thousands of men in the rural areas who are now forced to sign on at the employment exchange or who are trying to gather up the price of their passage to enable them to go across to Great Britain and to seek work there.

Again, it seems to me a paradox that, in the present situation, grants for sanitary services are reduced by £40,000. I do not want to go into all this in detail now. There will have to be some drastic remedy for this desperate situation. Let us blame whom we like for the situation thathas been created but let us also remember that, no matter what Government may be in power and no matter who may support them, they have the responsibility of doing their utmost for our men and women who are trying to make ends meet and who feel very low indeed because nobody is giving any indication that there will be employment for them in the near future. That is why I say that their morale has been severely shattered; they regard their position as very hopeless indeed. The present Government must take responsibility for that.

The highlights of the speeches made by members of the present Government during the last three or four by-elections were that they were cleaning up the mess and paying the bills left by the inter-Party Government. That type of talk might be believed by supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party and it might be all right to make such statements at a church gate meeting. It has been said that by the withdrawal of the food subsidies and by the imposition of certain taxes a sum of £10,000,000 was obtained and that that £10,000,000 is being devoted to the payment of debts incurred by the inter-Party Government. That assertion has been made by members of the Fianna Fáil Party despite the fact that everybody knows that the only amount provided in last year's Book of Estimates for the repayment of the loan that was advanced when the inter-Party Government were in office amounted to £640,000. Therefore it is entirely dishonest to try to tell the people of this country—as they have been told by members of the Fianna Fáil Party in the course of the last three or four by-elections—that a sum of £10,000,000 had to be raised to pay the debts of the inter-Party Government. It is also dishonest to say—as has been said—that the alleged unnecessary stockpiling by the inter-Party Government has been responsible for mass unemployment in a particular industry.

I read to-night—if necessary, I can get the reference—a statement which was made in the House on the 7th November, 1951, by the Minister for Industry and Commerce when speakingon the Supplies and Services Bill. Referring to this question of stockpiling, he said that the importation of textiles would be cut down, but that, in the meantime, he could not foresee that there would be any reduction of employment in the textile industry.

I think that the analysis which has been circulated to Deputies, with regard to the unemployment figures, is most enlightening. I commend a study of it to the Deputies on the other side of the House. It shows an increase in unemployment between the 13th December and the 19th January of 5,445 in respect of building, contracting and works of construction. Yet, we have the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance protesting in this House that there has been no slowing down on housing, and that if there has been, it is the fault of the local authorities.

I do not know whether any direction has been given to the Government, or by the Department of Local Government with regard to housing progress or, perhaps, I should say the lack of it. We can only go on the figures before us and, on these I do not think it is hard to judge as to whether or not there has been a slowing down in the erection of houses by local authorities.

I shall quote, for the information of the House, the figures relating to local authority houses in course of construction. In February, 1948, the figure was 3,068; in February, 1949, 7,379; in August 1949, 10,000; January, 1950, 10,912; March, 1951, 10,000; August 1951, 9,892; August, 1952, 8,760 and December, 1952, 7,391. Here are the figures of workers employed on local authority housing: May, 1950, 13,673; May, 1951, 11,481; May, 1952, 11,106; and the 1st January, 1953, 8,632. As I say, I do not know whether or not a direction, or advice of any sort has been given by the Government, the Minister concerned or, the Department of Local Government with regard to housing, but the fact is that a big number of the 90,000 unemployed are workers who had been in the building industry.

It seems to me that it is nowbecoming much more difficult than it was to get sanction from the Department of Local Government for the different housing schemes sent up to them. Housing can be stopped in many more ways than by the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary, or the Taoiseach saying "stop housing", or "go slow on housing". We have the most frivolous, the smallest and the most unnecessary type of query and complaint being sent from the Department to the local authority week after week, month after month or, I should say, after intervals of a month or two months or maybe three months, and by that method—whether they are trying to be more careful or to ensure that the local authority is providing the best type of house or not I do not know—housing has been slowed down.

I think I can speak with a fair amount of knowledge of one local authority, the Wexford Corporation. There is, on the part of the majority of its members, the desire to see houses built in Wexford town. It seems to me, however, that over the last six or 12 months delays from the Department have resulted in approximately 40 per cent. of the ordinary army of building workers with the Wexford Corporation being laid off. If that situation is to continue, it will mean that we are going to lose the skilled men we have in the building industry. If we do lose them, it will take quite a long time to get them back.

I think that the budgetary policy of the Minister for Finance, announced in April of last year, has to a very large extent, been responsible for the position in which we find ourselves to-day. I would refer in the first place, to the restriction of credit. The Minister for Finance has protested loudly that no direction was sent along the line with regard to the restriction of credit, and that he did not give any such direction either firsthand or secondhand, to the banks.

The fact, however, is that even though the rate of interest charged is high—6 per cent—any man who wants to engage in private building, or in any sort of a business venture, has a very poor chance of getting any type of loan from a bank if he is not ableto give abnormal security for it—so much security, in fact, that he would not really need a loan.

The discouraging forecasts made by the Fianna Fáil Government since its return to office as to what was going to happen to the country have also acted as a deterrent. That has been their effect on businessmen who are no longer in a speculative mood. People may say that speculation on the part of businessmen would be wrong. I do not mean it in that sense. What I mean is that they are not prepared to expand their business. The speeches of the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs this evening would not encourage them to expand their business. They just feel that they are doing all right, and will prefer to stay "pat." I think that the Budget policy of the Minister for Finance announced last April was fatal for this country.

The record over the last year shows that to be so. It is shown very clearly in the industrial analysis, particularly in the distributive trades where the increase in unemployment has been very steep indeed in respect of those ordinarily employed in grocery, meat, fish, poultry, food and especially drink. In that particular type of employment there has been a very big increase in the number of people who now find themselves unemployed. All of us know and the Minister must now admit that in one particular respect he failed miserably, that is, in his assessment as to what a tax on stout in this country would produce. I do not know what the Minister's intentions are but, if the Minister were to come into this House and propose, as would be welcomed by everybody in the country, a reduction in the price of stout, the best thing he could do would be to resign because that very action would be an admission of failure on his part as Minister for Finance.

I shall not detain the House any longer but I want to remind the House again that I have seen in the last few weeks what I never saw before— queues at a labour exchange. In the normal course of events, men havedifferent times for signing and one may see a cluster around a labour exchange but I have never seen queues there until the last six months. I will not describe them as crowds because there is no point in exaggerating the situation but there are many of our people going to Fishguard, Dún Laoghaire, and all the ports of embarkation on their way to Britain to seek employment merely because it is not available here. That is a situation about which the Government should be concerned but it seems to the ordinary person in the street that they are not concerned. They may be concerned privately. They may be concerned in Cabinet meetings but I submit that there should be some indication from the Taoiseach or from the Minister for Finance as to the prospects for these 90,000 unemployed people.

May I at first protest against the statements that were made here to-day by Deputy Dillon and others? There are in the benches opposite at least 75 per cent. of Deputies who would go into a dead faint to-morrow morning if they thought that the Government was going out of office. They would be found scattered along the street, laid out. Then we have them shouting for the Government to resign. Those people over there did not resign until they were absolutely certain that they would be kicked out and until they were absolutely certain that anything less than Deputy Flanagan's monetary reform scheme would not keep them going for another three months. They left when they had had the last roundup in as far as any bob could be borrowed from any end of the earth. Then they went and left their debts after them.

I heard challenges being made here by Deputy Dillon to-day in connection with certain members of this House, certain decent members, far decenter in their attitude in this House than Deputy Dillon has ever been. I allude to his statements here about Deputy Cogan, Deputy Cowan, Deputy Browne and Deputy ffrench O'Carroll. At least three of those Deputies were responsible for giving the inter-PartyGovernment their marching orders. They went to the country as the opponents of the inter-Party Government and were elected by the people as the opponents of the inter-Party Government.

Let us have no more of this balderdash that has been carried on in this House so long. Deputy Cowan signified from that bench his firm intention of voting against Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture. So did each of the other Deputies here and they went to the country on the programme that there was one thing they were not going to do: They were not going to let the inter-Party Government get back. They were re-elected on that policy. Let us have no more of this tripe.

I heard Deputy Corish telling us about the amounts that have been paid in interest. Would he like to hear the figures? I quote the reply I got from the Minister for Finance in this House on 23rd April, 1952—column 167. I asked the Minister for Finance the following question:—

"If he will state (1) the total amount payable and paid in interest and sinking fund in the financial year 1947-48, and (2) the total amount payable in interest and sinking fund in the financial year 1952-53."

I received the following reply from the Minister for Finance:—

"The amounts paid in 1947-48 and estimated as payable in 1952-53 for the service of the public debt are as follows:—

1947-48(Actual)

1952-53(Estimated)

£

£

For interest

3,095,714

7,354,700

For sinking funds, etc.

1,128,620

2,725,700

£4,224,334

£10,080,400.”

We paid £5,800,000 a year for the luxury of having that circus here for three years, to be paid every year for the next 30 years.

And Deputy Hickey never said a word about it.

Did I not? Look up the records and you will see.

Not a word.

If they want to know the difference between the policy of this Government and their policy, the policy of this Government is pay as you go; their policy was borrow again to pay the interest on what you borrowed last year. That is the difference between the two policies. Let me not hear any more tripe about that. They borrowed in 1947-48 to balance the Budget, £5,004,000, to pay for the cheap beer and the cheap cigarettes from the time they came in until the end of the financial year. Let us be clear about this. They became more courageous then. They found the bank manager to be a fairly generous fellow and in 1948-49 they borrowed £8,900,000; in 1949 they borrowed £20,500,000; in 1950-51 they borrowed £21,086,000; in 1951-52 they borrowed £38,938,000. They borrowed altogether £95,000,000 to run this country for three and a half years. Then they come in here and say that the poor people are taxed, the poor people are robbed.

On top of all the taxation that they had they borrowed that much to run the country. They then come in here with their tripe and commiserate with the poor people and the poor unemployed. If the amount that they borrowed had been put into establishing industry there would not be a man unemployed now. What did they do with it? Where did it go? These are the questions that I would like some of the gentlemen in this House to ask themselves.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share