Vol. 138 No. 7
I move:—
That provision shall be made by statute for the making by the Minister for Health of regulations relating to radio-active substances or irradiating apparatus and providing for the imposition of certain charges.
This is a similar Resolution in respect of Section 54, dealing with radio-active substances, and, again, is in exactly the same words as approved by the Coalition Government in 1950.
This Financial Resolution asks that provision shall be made by statute for the making by the Minister for Health of regulations relating to radio-active substances. It would have helped a great deal if the Minister had clarified the purpose for which the Financial Resolution is asked. I do not suppose that there are more than two or three Deputies who know what radio-active substances really are. TheMinister merely introduced the Financial Resolution and left it at that. As I happen to be a medical man, I shall try to indicate to the House what radio-active substances are, since the Minister has not chosen to do it.
Admittedly, this is a new feature in the medical life of the country. It is a new substance or a new drug. Radio-active isotopes are used for diagnosis and treatment of certain blood diseases, cancer and other diseases. The method of giving them is injection. They take the form of a liquid substance which is put into a syringe and injected into a human being. They are also used by the veterinary profession. According to the Financial Resolution, certain charges are being imposed. We are not very sure what these charges will be. In dealing with radio-active substances, which will be used by doctors and veterinary surgeons, the Minister should have clarified the position.
Legislation of this kind was passed in the British House of Commons recently. It empowered the British Minister for Health to have control over these substances. I take it that this Resolution and the subsequent legislation are for the same purpose here. It should be borne in mind that when the Minister for Health in Britain acquired these powers of complete control over radio-active substances he handed it back to the Medical Research Council again to control them. On behalf of this Party I would ask the Minister whether that is the Minister's intention or not.
I may have a suspicious mind, but it seems to me in connection with all these Resolutions we are going the same old road. Again may I quote Deputy Dr. Browne?—"The door is open; he has got his foot inside it; they are kicking ahead." It appears to me that the State will take control of these drugs. These drugs take the form of vapours or fluids. Radio-active substances are in the embryonic stage. The majority of us do not know very much about them.
Is this not a most cynical and transparent filibuster?
I do not mind the doctors asking me any questions they want to ask. The point I am trying to make is that this drug is used for medical purposes. Does Deputy Dr. Browne agree with that? Does he know anything about it? He does agree with me, does he? This is a new drug, a new thing in medical science. Surely the Medical Research Council are the right people to handle it.
Are not poisons under control?
Certainly, but they are not under the control of the State completely and absolutely. Chemists, doctors, and so forth are allowed to handle poisons.
Under control.
They have not to apply to the State for a permit or a licence every time they want to use them. In effect, this is giving the Minister control. If anyone wants it, he has to get a licence. That is exactly what you are asked to do.
Supposing the Minister said doctors could have them but others could not have them, would the Deputy object to that?
Deputy Cowan has reiterated how interested he is in improved health services.
Yes.
If a doctor wishes to get this substance for the purpose of treating a patient will it be necessary to go to the Minister everytime to get a licence or not? I would object to that.
The Deputy knows that is not right.
The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. He can talk afterwards and give me the benefit of his opinion.
I am not trying to hold up the business of the House as the Deputy is.
I am asking the Minister if he will refer this power back tothe Medical Research Council. This matter also concerns industry. The same regulations were passed and the same control was given in the British House of Commons in respect of industrial use of radio-active substances and energy.
Whiskey cannot be sold in this country except under the law and under the regulations made under the law.
Order!
I think the truth is that Deputy Cowan, if I may say so, knows absolutely nothing about these radio-active substances in which some Deputies may be interested. He seems to want to prevent me telling them about them. However, we will hear Deputy Cowan afterwards and we will be most interested.
No, you will not.
This substance is used in industry for photographing and testing metallic substances, such as propellers of aeroplanes. I would like to feel, when Deputy Cowan is flying to Strasbourg, that the propeller will be fully tested by the use of radio-active substance and that he will be safe.
I hope Deputy Dr. Esmonde has nothing to do with the testing.
Parallel legislation was passed in the British House of Commons dealing with the use of radio-active substances in industry. The Minister there handed that over to a scientific research council.
The points raised by the Deputy would be relevant on the section, not on the Money Resolution.
The Minister denied that angrily.
I am dealing with radio-active substances. Radio-active substances, as I am trying to explain, are used in medicine and in industry. That is the only point I am making.
The only question before the House is whether or not there will be a charge.
I suggested that was the case in respect of the Financial Resolution we have just disposed of. The Minister for Health got up and tore passion to tatters to say that I was challenging the section of my own Minister's Bill, that I was going back on the Health Bill, that I was bringing in the whole merit of the issue and that the one thing I did not care about was the charge. Having argued that successfully, is he now to appeal to the Chair, and the Chair to rule, that that is all that is at issue and that all he said was tripe?
It is a radio-active point of order.
Is not it the truth? Even the Deputy's twisted mind must see that.
Deputy Esmonde.
The Minister is looking for money to deal with radio-active substances. I submit I am talking about radio-active substances and I am suggesting to him that he should hand over any power he gets to impose licences or anything like that which will more or less give him complete control over these substances. I am only suggesting that he hands them back to a research council again. However, I will leave that point. I want to say, with regard to radio-active substances, that we would have no objection to this provided the Minister does return the medical side of it to the Medical Research Council as being fit and proper people to deal with it.
What about the bone-setters?
Deputy Cowan must cease interrupting and allow Deputy Esmonde to proceed.
I do not really mind.
If we do not pass this, the bone-setters could operate this.
If Deputy Cowan would ask sensible questions, we would answer them. I am afraid the Deputy is losing his temper.
Not at all. I am enjoying the Deputy's effort to hold up the business of the House.
You are making him radio-active.
Exactly. The next point is irradiating apparatus. The Minister has told us nothing about that either. I take it that irradiating apparatus means X-rays, electrical equipment of all sorts, ultra-violet rays, short wave, infra-red rays and medicinal forms of treatment.
It could be an atom bomb factory.
The Minister has in contemplation the establishment of an atom bomb factory. He thought this would be the proper moment to announce that.
I hope you will be convenient.
Possibly it will be located at Bangor-Erris or in Wicklow or East Cork which are very suitable sites.
Deputy Dr. Esmonde might be allowed to continue.
Pardon us for hailing the arrival of the atom bomb factory.
I am trying to ascertain from the Minister what he means by "irradiating apparatus".
He does not know.
That is the point. I take it that it deals with X-ray and the other apparatus I have mentioned.
It is in the definition section if you look at it.
That does not matter.
I will give way to the Minister if he likes to explain.
It is in the definition section.
There is no need to get cross.
Could not the Minister have made an explanatory statement in the beginning? I am trying to extract information from him. Surely he has a brief. I would be glad to give way to him if he would get up and read his brief. Does it apply to X-ray, short-wave therapy, etc.?
It is not defined. The definition says "Radio-active substances or irradiation apparatus". That does not get us very much more forward than we are. We know that it is irradiating apparatus.
I will read it for you:—
"the expression ‘medical irradiating apparatus' means irradiating apparatus which may be used as a prophylactic, diagnostic or therapeutic agent in the prevention or treatment of any human ailment, infirmity, injury or defect."
Now we are all much wiser. Could the Solon tell us whether that covers infra-red lamps?
I know it does.
It means X-ray apparatus, infra-red ray, ultra-violet ray. Am I to take it that people who use these apparatus have to have a licence? If a nursing home wants to buy an X-ray outfit they have to go to the Department of Health to get a licence. Is that the case? If they have to get a licence, we want to know what they will have to pay for it. Has a nurse who is carrying on the business of a masseuse and who has to have electric equipment for the after-treatment of fractures, etc., to get a licence? If she has, how much will she have to pay for the licence? Will the Minister give us information on these points? Perhaps it is a means of raising money. Perhaps it is for the purpose of preventing people getting these apparatus for some reason or other. I cannot fathom what is in the Minister's mind. In any case, it seemsto me entirely wrong that a nursing home, a public hospital or other institution or a private person that wants to get the simplest apparatus, provided it is an irradiating apparatus of any sort, should have to go to the Minister for a licence.
I make no apology for coming back to the point that in this Bill it is the old story of the State wanting to get control of everything. That is really what it boils down to. The freedom of the individual is gradually being taken away. I can see no reason for all this. If the Minister can give us a reasonable guarantee that the right of the individual will not be interfered with we will withdraw our opposition. It is only natural that we on this side of the House should be suspicious of this. Every Financial Resolution that comes along is for the purpose of prescribing a licence. That removes the freedom of the individual.
The Fine Gael Party are against that. If Deputy Dr. Browne, Deputy Cowan, Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll and the Fianna Fáil Party are for that, we are not. As long as we are sent here by the people we will oppose that sort of thing. We do not want to become units in this country. We want to retain our independence as free individuals. We do not want to have to turn to the State for everything. Private enterprise makes for the best in every individual and in every walk of life. That is the policy of Fine Gael. We stand four square behind that. If the Minister is prepared to delegate this to a responsible authority such as the Medical Research Council or an advisory body of scientists on the industrial side, we are prepared to withdraw our opposition.
I do not think it is a question of doctors differing on this point because I am certain that Deputy Esmonde will agree with me when I say that when one considers a meteoric development associated with radio-active materials one must have some control in the administration. After all, we have at present control in the administration of cortisone. The same thing applies in connection with radio-active material. When we consider that atomic development may result in suchadvances that even Deputy Dillon may be a potential guinea pig, then for Deputy Dillon's safety we must ensure that the control of such atomic development must be of necessity under the supervision of the Minister.
Is it not right that radio-active materials may in fact cause the crash of an airplane?
I am not referring to the stage we have reached in the present development but to the future. The Minister is not arrogating to himself any unnecessary powers.
There is something about this Bill which engenders fury. I heard Deputy Dr. Browne expressing indignation. If he will exercise a little forbearance he will realise that there is force in the case made by Deputy Esmonde. I do not suppose anybody in the House will contend that radio-active substances are to be used indiscriminately. It is a matter of which I have no technical knowledge and therefore I am probably the best legislator to deal with it. The doctors go daft once you let them loose on a problem of this kind. Having taken control of a dangerous substance by statute, some body like the Medical Research Council should have delegated to it the issue of licences to individual practitioners and the Minister should hand over that power holus-bolus and simply say: "As Minister I will countersign any licence you desire to issue to a properly qualified person or institution for the purchase, acquisition or use of these materials." If that proviso is made I do not think there would be very much fuss about this in so far as radio-active substances are concerned. I think it is quite likely that is what the Minister intends to do and all he has to do is to say that that is his intention. That gets over that difficulty. But then we come on to irradiating apparatus and the provision and imposition of certain charges and it has been said very properly that this Financial Resolution is simply a tax, and nothing else. To tell you the honest truth, I do not know why we should levy a tax on any nursinghome, hospital, dispensary doctor or other person who wants to buy some type of X-ray installation, portable or permanent.
Surely that is not implied?
I think it is.
I disagree.
It is an odd thing that we all get so excited about these matters.
An amendment which I have tabled makes that impossible.
Deputy Dr. Maguire thought it was almost incredible that the Bill could mean that, but that is what it did mean until we were told now about the Minister's amendment. Deputy Dr. Maguire read the Bill.
And the amendment.
If Solon will keep quiet for a moment and let me continue. I am not blaming Deputy Dr. Maguire. He read the Bill and the Financial Resolution and he immediately said that it was unthinkable that a tax should be put on these things and therefore the Minister does not mean to do that. But the Bill says that is what he does mean to do and when the Minister's attention is drawn to it he informs us that he is bringing in an amendment to ensure that the Bill does not mean that.
Is the Deputy now satisfied?
I think I will yet persuade Deputy Briscoe that there is something here to cause him concern.
Is the Deputy not satisfied now that any further argument would be a waste of time?
No. Am I right in saying that an infra-red installation or an ultra-violet ray lamp may be caught under this licensing proviso? It may be argued, and possibly it is true, that the therapeutic value of many of these appliances is doubtful. I do not know if that is so but I venture to say thatif I took all the doctors in this House and put them in a row I would get a different answer from each one of them. I am sure however of one thing: there are a number of respectable citizens in this country who, if they have a crick in their necks, get a hot iron, put a piece of brown paper over the crick and iron it out. There are others who, in similar circumstances prefer to buy an ultra-violet lamp. Some people when they get fibrositis put a bit of red flannel around the knee, but others like to buy an infra-red lamp and get their infra-red treatment not from self-radiation but from external radiation.
Is there anything about the moon in it?
Do I exaggerate? Are not these the facts? Is it reasonable for this House to bring in a Bill which prevents some harmless citizen who wants to buy apparatus of that kind from doing so? Under this Bill one cannot in future go into Hodge's on the quay and quietly buy a lamp and carry it home pretending it is a new lamp for the drawing-room because one does not want to admit to the neighbours that one has begun to feel a twinge of rheumatism in one's shoulder. In future you must go down to the Custom House and let them hear your shoulder creak and then they will very kindly issue a licence and you will pay your fee. After that you can go to Hodge's, present your licence and the shop assistant will be satisfied that your shoulder has creaked with sufficient eloquence in the Custom House to qualify you for the purchase of a lamp, and you can then buy 5/11 worth of infra-red lamp.
Does the Deputy agree ducks should be brought up on that system?
Certainly.
I saw that last week-end up in Donegal.
Even hens can be induced to lay an egg in Dublin, or even in Strasbourg, by that method.
Those are the hens that drowned Britain.
When I am in Strasbourg I hope they lay fresh eggs.
Do we really mean to provide that if anyone wants to buy some innocuous appliance of that kind the procedure of getting a licence ad hocmust be gone through. I do not think any of us mean that. I do not think the most wrong-headed physician in this House believes this is necessary. I would be sorry to think that Dáil Éireann had reached a stage in which it just shrugs its shoulders and says: “Oh, what the hell? Why be worrying about trifles of that kind”. Does it not mean something to us that we can go about our lawful occasions without licences provided we put nobody else in jeopardy?
There is no licensing provision in the Bill. There is an amendment covering the point.
The Minister told me that he is bringing in an amendment to the Bill.
No one is discussing the Bill.
The Deputy is mistaken. The Minister has told me that he is putting down an amendment to omit X-ray apparatus. It does not go beyond that. All these other devices get caught, or do I misinterpret the Minister?
The amendment is to remove the obligation on doctors and dentists to get a licence.
Take Deputy McCann and myself. Suppose we get a twinge of rheumatism. Can we hereafter go into the ironmonger and buy our infra-red lamp, retire to our respective domiciles and seek confidential treatment from our better halves with that red lamp without having to go down and demonstrate the crick in our neck in the Custom House?
Is it not necessary on occasions to protect individuals from themselves?
There he goes. He is going to protect Deputy McCann and myself for fear the wife would burn us. That is where we have got to; he is going to come into the blooming bedroom and teach us how to behave ourselves. Where will this end? Deputy Briscoe is afraid now that when we get inside the house we will burn ourselves if he has not the right to follow us in and save us in our own house. The natural corollary to that is to give us a licence. Good gracious, he will not let us buy a bottle of Sloan's liniment soon for fear we would blister ourselves.
It is a good job poison is only sold under licence.
Does Deputy Cowan think Deputy Briscoe ought to be charged with the duty of watching over Deputy McCann and the rest of us for fear we would burn ourselves? That is the nadir of insanity.
If I was not a Christian I would hope you hadburned yourself up long ago, but I am a Christian.
I know the Deputy is a cross little man. Does Deputy Dr. Browne think that ought to be done?
Since 1944 you have played the Medical Association's game and you are still at it.
If a Deputy wants a man to be free to buy an infra-red lamp to use in his own house, then he is playing the game of the Irish Medical Association.
