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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 May 1953

Vol. 138 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolution No. 3—General (Resumed).

The condition of affairs we are dealing with, the disastrous effect this reiteration of the Budget of last year is likely to have, dictates that we would review the position with the greatest possible clarity and that we would eliminate as far as possible the clouded atmosphere that the Minister for Finance created by his sarcastic and sneering attitude regarding the Budget of last year. The attitude that he took up here in the Dáil on the discussion was continued by him in his broadcast. There are certain aspects that I would like to get clear.

In speaking on the radio, as reported in the Sunday Pressof the 10th May, he said that “over the period from February 1948 until the last Budget of the Coalition worked itself out on the 31st March 1952, the total net borrowing of the Exchequer had increased by £90,000,000,” and that “the huge increase on the current expenditure and this inordinate borrowing is at the heart of the budgetary problems withwhich the Government and the taxpayer are confronted today.”

He further indicated that a substantial part of the money borrowed by the previous Government had been spent not to stimulate production but on projects for which there was "little economic justification." We have that attitude of the Minister, instead of facing up to the problems that exist to day and that are largely created by the Budget of last year. The present Budget, however, is a serious enough one to be dealt with on its merits. There will be a temptation, particularly in view of the Minister's attitude, to deal with it as one of a series of serious blows struck by the Fianna Fáil Party to the economy of this country. I have no wish to blur in any way the appreciation of the present situation by discussing it except on its merits. One of the ways in which the Minister seeks to blur the realities of the present situation is by reference to the "unproductive and unnecessary expenditure" of the inter-Party Government, the "legacy if the debt" alleged by the Minister to have been left by them, and the results flowing from it.

The Minister must allow those who are dealing with these matters in Parliament to realise that there are official returns prepared by the Minister for Finance and his Department and that annually there is issued by the Government, at the time of the presentation of the Budget, tables in connection with the financial statement. Table 5, in the presentation for 1953, gives a statement showing the capital liabilities of the State on the 31st March, 1953, and a statement of the assets held by the State against these liabilities. In an appended note it gives the position in relation to the liability of the State with regard to housing. The figures are available over the years from 1947-48 to 1952-53, showing the gross liabilities and total assets, and they give facilities for ascertaining the increase in the net liability with regard to State expenditure and the increase in the liability with regard to housing.

When we look at these figures we find the total increase in the State's liability in relation to borrowing, on the one hand, and its added housing liability on the other. For the year 1948-49 the increase in the net liability, including housing, was £2,459,171; for the year 1949-50, £10,507,630; for the year 1950-51, £11,362,587; for the year 1951-52, £22,950,510; and for the year 1952-53, £12,822,841. The amounts of increase net liability during the inter-Party years are comparatively small compared with the additional net liability which has gone on the State in respect of housing and general capital expenditure in the past two years. That is one way in which the increased expenditure on capital items and the increased dead-weight debt is presented to the House.

It is presented in another way in the White Paper, "Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure," issued on the occasion of each Budget. When we look at the position with regard to the total expenditure on both supply and capital items in each of the past few years and the total amount of money that had to be provided to meet that expenditure, other than by way of tax or non-tax revenue, we get an impression of the State's borrowings in another way. For the financial year 1948-49, the total expenditure was £81,056,000 of which £9,265,000 had to be found by ways other than tax or non-tax revenue—by borrowing. For 1949-50, the total expenditure was £95,383,000 and the amount that had to be found other than through tax or non-tax revenue was £21,358,000; for 1950-51 the total expenditure was £99,419,000 and the amount that had to be found by borrowing was £22,063,000; in 1951-52 the total expenditure was £123,494,000 of which £39,589,000 had to be found in a way other than through tax or non-tax revenue; and in 1952-53 the total expenditure was £128,723,000, the total amount which had to be found by borrowing being £32,805,000.

The Minister now presents us with a Budget in which the total expenditure under supply and capital headingsis estimated to be £137,472,000, taking the Minister's figure that the capital that will be required to be added to tax and non-tax revenue to meet that amount as £36,300,000, the figure given by him in his Budget statement. Here, therefore, we have the amounts which the State had to find by borrowing down along: £9,265,000, £21,258,000 and £22,063,000 up to March, 1951, and, since March, 1951, £39,589,000 and £32,805,000, and the sum which the Minister now tells us he will have to obtain for capital services, £36,300,000.

This is the Minister who was crying out about the havoc which the Government that went before this Government brought on the country by its profligacy and borrowing. I do not object to the Government carrying out a constructive programme involving the use of capital, and the amounts quoted there may be amounts which are worth spending, but, if they are, let them not make the case for spending them that they are amounts which pale into insignificance when compared with the capital moneys spent during the three years of the Government which preceded this Government. We ask the Minister to look at the capital expenditure in the past two years. These amounts are stated in pretty clear detail in every one of the Budget statements as they are made each year and I would call the Minister's attention, for the purpose of getting him to address himself to this matter, to certain figures.

I have here the estimates of capital expenditure offered in the Budget statements of 1950-51, 1951-52, 1952-53 and 1953-54. I will give four figures in each case running from the budgetary statement of 1950-51 to 1953-54 inclusive:—Housing In the 1950-51 Budget the inter-Party Government indicated that they would require £14,120,000 capital for their housing work. In the last two years of the present Government the figures were £11.73 million and £12.05 million; in the current estimate it is £10.54 million. Was there any profligacy or unwarranted expenditure in the housing proposals of the Budget of 1950-51?

Similarly, under health, sanitary services, the figures running from1950-51 down are; £1.16 million, £0.78 million, £0.67 million and, in the estimate for this year, £1.80 million. Was there profligacy and extravagant expenditure in the proposals of the Government that preceded the present Government?

Under the heading of hospitals the figures were: £0.42 million, in 1950-51 £0.24 million, £0.38 million, and now £5.08 million, under the special circumstances indicated by the Minister for Health and the Minister for Finance. On those figures was there extravagance and profligacy in the past?

Under the heading agricultural development the figure in 1950-51 was £6,260,000, of which there was only £3.13 million spent. The estimates for subsequent years were £5.16 million, £3.99 million, £4.72 million for the coming year. Does the Minister find there the profligacy, extravagance and worthless expenditure that he speaks about?

Under the heading electricity development, in 1950-51 the estimate was £4.75 million. In the subsequent years the estimates were £4.75 million, £9.00 million, £8.00 million. The same question arises there with regard to the Minister's charge.

For turf development the estimate in 1950-51 was £1.50 million and the subsequent years' estimates were £1.10 million, £1.75 million, £1.27 million.

Under the heading telephones, the estimates were: 1950-51, £2.25 million and in the subsequent years £2.00 million, £1.75 million, £1.50 million.

For schools and State buildings the figures were: 1950-51 £1.12 million subsequent years, £1.17 million, £1.16 million, £1.30.

For afforestation the figures were: 1950-51, £0.36 million—actually there was £0.43 million spent— and in subsequent years the estimates were £0.85 million, £0.6 million, £0.68 million.

Under the heading, fisheries: in 1950-51, the figure was £0.20 million, which included a certain amount of mineral development and tourist expenditure. In the following year the figure was £0.11 million; a certain amount of mineral development beingincluded. In the subsequent year the figure was £0.16 million and for the coming year £0.15 million.

The estimates for transport were: in 1950-51, £1.86 million and in the subsequent years £1.54 million, £3.41 million, £4.40 million. In 1950-51 there was only £0.77 million spent.

The total actually spent in those years as far as I can find out was: 1950-51, £24.61 million; in the following year £35,000,000; in the subsequent year, £32.27 million and the estimate for this year is £36.30 million.

I ask the Minister what does he mean by obscuring and bedevilling consideration of financial matters with regard to capital expenditure and the use to which it is being put by the stuff that he has been going ahead with, by the stuff that he has been publishing in relation to the capital expenditure that I speak of. The fact is that the last Government embarked upon a sound and satisfactory scheme for using the country's credit to build up necessary developments here that the people, without State assistance of some kind or another, could not have carried out. It is not only neglecting his duty to the people but it is bedevilling for some queer purpose the whole financial situation and the political situation and the work of this Parliament when he comes in here and makes the statement that he has made, and when he goes on the air or to his various meetings and makes the charges that he has made.

The Minister may be wishing to confuse the situation a bit and the suggestion that he may be wishing to make is that Marshall moneys were borrowed for the purpose of paying for imports to this country that he would not approve of. That is not what the Minister is saying. The Minister is saying that the Government that was in office for three years before the present Government borrowed huge amounts of money and misspent them in unprofitable ways. I ask the Minister to take the figures that are given there and to reconcile them if he can with the statements that he has made and particularly to take the moneys borrowed by the Government and the credit available to the Governmentor actually spent under the headings that I have given.

On the question of the use made for trading purposes of the dollars obtained under Marshall Aid, we made use of Marshall Aid moneys that were made available so that within necessary limits the ordinary natural trading of the country and its trading connection with the dollar countries could be maintained over a period in which certain rectification and improvement in international trade was being worked for and was expected. The dollars that were provided for traders who were importing dollar materials here were made available to the Government, who made them available to the merchants and, in return, accumulated from those who used dollars sterling equivalent. The sterling equivalent of the Marshall Aid which was used for maintaining and assisting natural trade came into the possession of the Government and was used in the best way that the Government could use it to make the moneys profitable while they were in the custody of the Government. The Minister himself spent £24,500,000 of those moneys.

In his circulation Budget statement of April, 1952, page 32, he says:

"It is important, in view of the problems which we will have to face in the coming year, that the Dáil and the public should realise how the borrowings of £41,000,000 were raised and why the process must not, and indeed cannot, be repeated. We borrowed for Exchequer use small savings in the form of deposits in the Savings Banks and purchases of Saving Certificates. We also used the available income of the social insurance funds for ways and means advances. The net receipts from these sources were approximately £7,000,000. The American Loan Counterpart Fund provided £24,500,000. It is now exhausted. The remaining £9,500,000 we had to find by selling British Government securities of the Post Office Savings Bank and social insurance funds, replacing these securities by our own."

A sum of £41,000,000 for capital purposes was used by the Minister forFinance in the year 1952—that is plainly shown in the White Paper for the year ending 31st March, 1953—and £24,500,000 of that was Marshall Aid money which the Minister no doubt is charging up as having been borrowed by the previous Government. If it was, it was left behind for him to spend in the year 1952-53.

It was spent in 1951-52 on schemes which had been left behind by our predecessors.

It was used in the year ending on the 31st March, 1952, the year which the Minister was dealing with in his Budget statement.

To meet your commitments.

It is nearly time for the Minister to reiterate what these commitments were. It is nearly time for him to deal with the finances of this country on his own responsibility from the time his Government took over. He might as well claim from the Government which preceded him the advantages that accrued to this country from their wiping out of taxation in the beginning of 1948 and all that flowed from that. He might as well claim that as ensuing from the Government that preceded the inter-Party Government as to put the blame for what happened from June, 1951, on the Government that preceded him.

There were deficits of £3,000,000 on the 1950 Budget.

The Minister has had that very fully dealt with. I am asking the Minister to take the expenditure, to take the capital plans that were estimated for in the Budgets of our period and his own capital expenditure and capital plans and deal with the question to which I am addressing myself, the profligacy and the waste of these moneys. The Minister has had dealt with on very many occasions the question as to whether the Budget for the year 1950-51 was properly balanced or not and the figures are all there. There is very good reason, if the Minister wants to go into them again, why they will not be gone into.

Here we are dealing with a kind of remaking of the blow against the economy of this country made in last year's Budget and we want to clear away from that the obscurities and the confusion that the Minister is deliberately encircling them with. That is why I ask the Minister, in relation to his proposed expenditure here and his proposals for borrowing, in what way are they more profitable, in what way are they more worthy than the proposals that were made in the Budget of 1951-52, or in the Budget of 1949-50. The Minister no doubt will not address himself to that.

The total net increase in the State's liabilities due to borrowing and to housing commitments for the year 1948-49 was £2,459,000; for 1949-50, £10,507,000; for 1950-51, £11,362,000; for 1951-52, £22,950,000; and for 1952-53, £12,822,000. The Minister's proposals for borrowing this year are greater than were contemplated in any year up to the present, as is his bill for the supply services greater also. However, he will require £36,300,000 and he says that, due to his policy, the people have now become thrifty and the people are now saving.

The Minister gave me the impression on reading his Budget speech that he was a man suffering from shock, that he was a person guilty of a crime to whom the guilt had been brought home, and that he found himself in a daze and unable to reconstruct the mood or the atmosphere in which the crime was committed, because he saw all around him, as he must, the position with regard to unemployment, the position with regard to the cost of living, the position with regard to the break down of the initiative of so many people in industry and commerce on which this country is depending to provide the additional development and the additional employment in the country and to sustain even the employment that is in it. The Minister can just ignore that. He asks the people to look at the bright prospects ahead and says that the people have something to save and have something worth saving for.

Surely the Minister realises from his experience in the past, as he hasindicated very clearly, how difficult it has been for the Government to get loans. He almost gloats over the position in which a body like the Dublin Corporation finds itself: that it cannot stand on its own feet and rushes to the Minister for Finance for assistance and, in a hoity-toity way, the Minister says, "You must stand on your own feet." He is able to get the banks to face the problems now because the previous Government had very adequately and effectively put before the banks their responsibilities in the matter in present conditions.

But where does the Minister expect saving to come from for the ordinary development and maintenance of our industrial and commercial fabric and our agricultural fabric taking conditions as they are to-day, conditions in which the Government expects it will require £36,300,000 for the carrying on of its work? It is gratifying to see the Government pursuing in relation to capital development the road chalked out by its predecessors, much as the Minister sneered at the plans and the ideas they had. Even the Minister himself will admit that the most effective and the most important part of capital use and capital development here is the development that takes place at the hands of and due to the initiative of private enterprise. The Minister will admit that the most vital works requiring to be capitalised and sustained here are those concerned with the expansion of industry, the expansion of our manufacturing business and the improvement and development of our agriculture.

Where does the Minister see in the situation that confronts us that capital will be available for the improvements and maintenance of our ordinary economic life? Recently the Minister for Industry and Commerce appealed for increased outside capital to come in here for the purpose of developing our economic and industrial arm. That is very necessary and it will be very welcome. One of the things we did in husbanding Marshall Aid—and the £24,500,000 that the Minister blew in in six months would have served to foster that purpose—was to give our ownpeople a chance from their limited resources to provide a modicum of capital for carrying on Government work, assisted by the capital resources on which we had been able to lay our hands as a result of Marshall Aid, thereby leaving some native capital in the country for its own internal development.

The Minister must know that the result of his policy is to reduce employment and impoverish our people by reducing their earning while at the same time such residue of capital as is available from our trading is expressing itself in the piling up of further sterling assets to uphold the economy of people outside. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is appealing for foreign capital to come in here to help to build up the economic fabric of the country, while the Minister for Finance presents a Budget identical to the Budget introduced last year and he thereby endeavours to muddle and confuse the situation. He is not concerned, good, bad or indifferent with the situation that has been brought about and the condition of the country as a whole, remembering that the people must now bear a burden of taxation even greater than that imposed by the Minister last year.

Let us see what is happening this year. What is happening this year is that the taxation imposed on the country last year is reimposed this year on a country weakened by the results of last year's taxation and by the Government's policy of increasing the rate of interest. The amount of taxation raised in the year ending 31st March, 1952, was £73,161,000. Last year additional taxes were concocted and imposed under last year's Budget, Those additional taxes were expected to bring in, in addition to that £73,000,000, another £910,000 from income-tax; from the people who use tobacco an additional £5,500,000; from the people who drink beer an additional £2,360,000; from the people who drink spirits an additional £1,020,000 and from those who use petrol and oil an additional £500,000. In other words, additional taxes were added last year designed to take from our people, when the reduction to thedance hall proprietors was taken into consideration, £11,180,000 and on top of that additional burden of taxation the people had to find up to £8,000,000 extra for the food subsidies that had been withdrawn. This year they must suffer the same blow but that blow falls on a people who have suffered the results of the Minister's financial policy for the past 12 months. How have the people fared during the past 12 months?

The Irish Trade Journalpublished quarterly provides from time to time information with regard to the number of persons engaged in the production of transportable goods. If we look down the list of 32 groups of industries there we find that out of the 32 there are only four—bacon curing, bread, flour and confectionery and biscuit manufacturing, sugar and sugar confectionery and chemicals and drugs—in which there was more employment in December, 1952, than there was in December, 1950. In every other industry there—paper-making, grain milling, malting, tobacco, bricks and pottery, timber, brushes, wood furniture, the assembly of vehicles, metal industries, engineering, linen, jute and cotton, wollens and worsteds, wholesale clothing for men and boys, shirt-making, wholesale clothing for women and girls, miscellaneous wholesale clothing, the boot and shoe industry, hosiery, fellmongering, soap and candles—less people are employed to-day and one has the situation that for the transportable industries, taking the quarter ending in March, there were 1,951 less people employed in 1952 than in 1950 but there were 4,477 less people employed in 1952 than there were in 1951. There were 9,035 less people employed in June, 1952, than there were in June, 1951. There were 7,308 less people employed in September and there were 3,437 less people employed in December, 1952, than there were in December, 1951, but there were 7,228 less people employed in December, 1952, than in December, 1950.

That is the employment side of things. On the unemployment side one has the position, going back over the three years, that on the 10th May.1951, there were 46,250 men on the register, while on the 10th May, 1952, there were 53,272, and 71,632 on the 10th May, 1953. Has the Minister given any consideration as to what continued effect his budgetary imposition is going to have on unemployment in these industries? The Minister has indicated that there is an uprise in the situation. Will the Minister say if the uprise that he speaks of there is the same type of uplift that he shows when he speaks of our people having become more thrifty, being more grateful to the Government and more ready to support the general proposals of Government policy?

Does the Minister not know that to a very great extent the whole outlook of our industrial and commercial leaders is bedevilled and confused by the position with which the Minister has presented them? As we complained at the time of last year's Budget and as we reiterated when he acquiesced in the policy of raising the bank rate, the Minister has deliberately applied to this country a British-made policy, a policy made in Britain for the purpose of dealing with the British circumstances, where they wanted to withdraw both capital and men from the ordinary industrial and commercial avocations of an ordinary nation in order to bring resources of men and capital to their armament industries because of the general defence position in which they found themselves, and to their export industries because of the position in which they found their balance of payments, which was a real problem as distinct from the problem about which the Minister seems to have so much anxiety here. In connection with our industries for the production of consumption goods or goods generally required in this country and a comparatively small industrial export, the British-made policy was applied here with the inevitable effect that it was intended to have when applied in Britain. That is the policy which is being continued here now.

I will ask the Minister if he has adverted at all to a paper that was read by Sir Roland Nugent the other nightin Belfast at a meeting of the Statistical and Inquiry Society of Ireland. Speaking very humbly, not as an expert or as a technician, but as a man with a considerable amount of experience in affairs and very close association with the commercial life of the Six Counties, where he has been a former Minister of Commerce, with a very considerable amount of experience and knowledge of the trend of industrial life in Britain generally, he found it necessary in relation to the economic life of the Six Counties to posit to them that the least expensive and the least painful solution of the economic difficulties in which our people in the Six Counties found themselves would be to clear out, to go to some other place. Surely if any part of our country could survive the application of the policy devised for an economy of heavy industry, with a certain capacity for armament making and a considerable normal export trade; if any part of our country could weather or survive the application of such a policy as Britain has applied and as the Minister for Finance is applying to this country, it would be the North; yet there it is pointed out to them by one of their own, and an experienced one of their own, that all he can see for them if they are to avoid pain and if they are to avoid expense is to clear out.

Does the Minister not know in his heart and soul that that is the thought that is tormenting the youngest and the best of our people here, that in our present-day circumstances, leaving their school and entering on the threshold of normal life, they find every avenue of employment shut to them by reason of the fact that he has, by his policy, shut the door of so many industries on men and women who were already finding employment there? Has the Minister nothing to see in the opinions that are being expressed so evenly and so calmly by men such as Sir Roland Nugent? Does he see nothing in the situation there to get him to direct his eyes more closely to what is happening in this country and to look more carefully for the cause of the unfortunate happenings here? TheMinister pleads for the building up of a strong defence here for this country, which those who went before him for three years had neglected.

Certainly.

Those who went before him for three years have laid the foundations for a strong defensive spirit in this country.

A £50,000 Republic.

They applied in our normal political and economic affairs the principal and the spirit that gave us strength so that when we had to do any fighting to maintain the liberties of our people a spirit of unity would exist among every party, creed and class.

That is not what Deputy MacEoin says.

The Minister comes in here sneering at co-operation and unity, putting haloes around their heads, economic, political and independent haloes that are pinched from other people's graves. They wear haloes to-day that ought to be around the heads of some of the unemployed in this country whose prospects for life and prosperity in this country have been reduced by the antics and by the policies that are being pursued here. The Minister's anxiety for defence may be worthy enough but the Minister's approach and the way he throws it into the present discussion is just despicable. We are satisfied that there should be expenditure on the Army if it were only to take the young people who cannot get into employment of any other kind, to take them into one of our educational institutions, the Army, and let them understand there the spirit of discipline and comradeship without which this country cannot prosper.

I thought Deputy Dr. O'Higgins, your Minister for Defence, did not want to have them knocking sparks off their boots in barrack squares.

I am telling the Minister what we think, what thecountry thinks and what Deputy Dr. O'Higgins thinks, too. We would be anxious that some of the young men reaching the threshold of manhood, who perforce otherwise would have to leave the country, should be helped by the Army to hold themselves as citizens of this country for a while longer and perhaps permanently so with the passing of time, as a result of reaching a better and more sensible policy. We, happily, see quite a number of young men going into the Army. They will not all stay there. Some of them will, and no doubt will be a credit and an addition to the Army. Many of them will find what the Army is happily for them—a haven in which they can shelter themselves against the emigrant ship to-day—a haven in which as I say they can learn the comradeship that men find in the Army, the comradeship of every party, creed and class combined with advancement in discipline and education. But do not make a mock of the Army by boasting of the magnificent defence arrangements that have to be made to-day at great cost. That is the kind of stuff that should be left to the Irish PressandIrish Pressleaders and should not be brought in here to an Irish Parliament, where our concern is to lay secure foundations on which our people can find employment so that our finances may be properly, effectively and efficiently developed and maintained.

The Minister has, as I say, beclouded the atmosphere here with all kinds of smugness and self-praise to the effect that he has put this country on its feet again and that he has opened a bright prospect for it. For goodness' sake will the Minister take this House for what it was set up and meant to be and for what it has been maintained with so much patience, a House in which we can look frankly and clearly at the conditions of our people, understand the burdens they can bear and the policies they can pursue? As I say, there is a serious difficulty in not associating the present blow which the Government is striking at the country with some other blows they have struck and with some opportunities for advancement they havelost to this country already. The situation is too serious for anybody to seek to do anything except to get at the facts of that situation.

I would recommend to the Minister to look at the various aspects of the review of the economic position in the North as detailed in Sir Roland Nugent's paper on the industrial side, on the agricultural side, on the side of credit and on the side of taxation, and endeavour to see the distorted condition of affairs in this country as reflected against the picture that Sir Roland paints. The Minister is proposing to raise a considerable greater amount of taxation than he raised last year. He is over-budgeting this year in the same way as he over-budgeted last year. He misrepresents the position, he is denying the facts and he is bedevilling the discussion with a generally unsavoury approach.

The Minister has indicated that, as part of the cost of our defence preparations, he is going to dip his hand lightly into those funds that, at the end of the year for some years past, have been kept in the hands of the Inland Revenue Commissioners. In his statement introducing the Budget he said that on 1st April, 1948, the cash balance in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners amounted to almost £1.9 million. Will the House credit it that on the 1st April, 1948, the cash balance in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners were not £1.9 million but were £2,251,044 19s. 5½d?

I am very sorry but the Deputy is not reading that statement correctly.

I shall ask the Minister to deal with the matter because the Minister subsequently went on——

Several of the Deputy's colleagues have made that sort of mistake.

I am going to make it again, if it is a mistake, but I am first going to ask Deputies to consider what the Minister was getting at because he went on to say:—

"Over the three years to 1st April, 1951, they were maintained around this level."

Yet on the 1st April, 1949, they totalled £2,033,447, on the 1st April, 1950, £2,521,241 and on 1st April, 1951, £2,533,690 1s. 6d. Then the Minister went on to say:—

"As a result of fortuitous accretions over the past two years, however, the figure at 1st April last had risen to £2.5 million."

If the Deputy would pardon me, I do not want either the Deputy or myself to be confused in regard to these figures. Will he inform me where he has got these figures?

I shall take my last figures. The Minister says that as a result of fortuitous accretions over the past two years, the figures at 1st April last, that is 1/4/1953, had risen to £2,500,000. He quietly passes over the beautiful flow of things to 1st April, 1952. Reading through the accounts headed: "Statement showing the principal heads of revenue, balance in the hands of the Revenue Department at the commencement of the year, etc.", I find the figure was £2,860,934 2s. 9½d.

You see that is where the Deputy is confused. I said "cash balance in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners" but if the Deputy will look at that he will see that only the first items deal with the cash balances in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners. The others are cash in the Post Office Account and the Road Fund Account. I do not want to be making a petty point on it. I want to say in fairness to the Deputy that he either misunderstands what I said or the significance of the table.

Even if I take the Minister at what he says now and take the Post Office moneys out of it——

And the Road Fund.

Oh, yes. Let theDeputy try to be fair. It may be very difficult in our present relationship but at least let him read what I said. I said "the cash balances in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners". I am pointing out that it is only the first five items, I think, that relation to cash balances in the hands of the Revenue Commissioners.

Very good. If the Minister wants to have it that way let him have it.

That is the way I want it.

The Minister's approach to this matter is entirely in keeping with his general approach to the presentation of the financial position—an approach which savours very markedly of deception. Part of the Minister's deceptive approach to the present situation is the way in which he introduced the defence position into it. The general position in which this country finds itself is that it is getting this year the same dose as it got last year. Last year it got a dose of high taxation. It got a dose of impoverishment as a result of the withdrawal of the subsidies. Twenty million was taken out of our people's pockets last year in additional cost for food on the one hand and additional taxation on the other. That was in excess of the £73,000,000 they had to pay the year before. Now the same blow has been struck at our people who suffered as a result of last year's policy and the policy that went before it.

The position is rather simply put in the March number of the Irish Trade Journal and Statistical Bulletinon page two of which we read:—

"For each month of 1951 up to and including August, the total live register was less than for the corresponding month of 1950, and for each month since September 1951, to date, the total has been in excess of the corresponding 1950 figure. The 1950-51 improvement was substantial in the first five months of 1951, varying from 5,000 to 9,000 but, by reference to 1950, there was a steady worsening of the position from Juneto the end of 1951, a decline of 2,800 in the June figure being converted to an increase of 6,700 in the December one. In the first three months of 1952 the monthly totals showed an average increase of 2,400 over the corresponding 1950 totals, and one of 9,500 over those for 1951. In the next three months the 1952 figures exceeded those for 1950 by about 5,800 on the average and were 11,100 above those for 1951. In the third quarter of 1952 the average increase in the totals amounted to about 8,400 as compared with 1950, and to about 9,000 as compared with 1951, while in the last quarter of the year the average excess over 1950 was 11,400 and over 1951, 7,000."

These are statistics in connection with the live register and show in every single case a reduction of employment in the various industries producing transportable goods. At least they represent an individual, if they do not represent a family, who has been driven into unemployment by the policy that the Minister put into operation last year. We had a forewarning of that policy the year before. It was a policy applied to this country that was intended for that part of industrial and commercial Britain, where the British-made policy was made to suit British circumstances and to create unemployment and drive it into different industries, the export and armament industries.

On top of that then we have the Minister's sneering references that our people have been taught thrift, that they have cut down their consumption and that they are lending to the Government. The Minister must know very well that he is piling up Government expenditure with plans that he may not be able to get savings to meet. Meantime he is reducing our people to a certain amount of hopelessness and preventing them, as well as industrialists, from having any chance of accumulating savings to put into the stabilising of our employment not to talk of increasing it.

I listened to Deputy Mulcahy's statement with great attention. He gave us a rather powerful dose of figures possible withthe intention of confusing the general issue. I have been through the country a good deal in the last week and have met quite a number of people. Everywhere I went all the people, whether they were supporters of the present Government or the recent Government, told me how satisfied they were with the Budget. I discovered that some of the reason for their being satisfied with the present Budget were very strange. One of the reasons was the deluge of figures that Deputy Costello gave and the effort he made to confuse the issue with this famous £10,000,000 when he tried to persuade the people that the Minister had collected from the public £10,000,000 and put it in a box with the intention of taking it out this year when the Budget was introduced for the purpose of balancing the Budget and reducing taxation.

That was one of the statements that convinced the people there was something wrong in the whole situation. Evidently Deputy Mulcahy has adopted the same policy. There are only two issues before the people of this country, One of these is to see that our sterling assets are restored and the other is to see that the Budget is balanced.

Build up Britain.

That sort of blooming nonsense will not affect anyone. In all your nonsense you never told us what you would do if you were elected to-morrow.

We showed you for three years.

You never mentioned one word about it but kept dosing up the figures to confuse the issue.

We did it for you.

So far as the people are concerned they seem to thoroughly understand what the issue is and they are fully satisfied that although we did not restore the sterling assets to what they were before, we were short only £9,000,000. The Budget was not balanced. It is just short £2,000,000. As far as the Budget is concerned, andconsidering that there was £15,000,000 against us two years ago and a bit more —possibly, roughly, some £20,000,000— I think it is a great feat that we should have succeeded in getting as far as we did.

There is another point, and it is that the country is quite satisfied with the progress of events. As far as the farmers are concerned, their industry is showing very substantial profits. The sales of agricultural produce have increased by £20,000,000 and in the last six or seven months industry has not been very far behind. Thank God, it was able to give us some support for the agricultural community, and will be able to do so again this year. So far as agriculture is concerned, I want to say that in the County Meath we have large areas of wheat this year. The crop has been well and properly put in. In fact, tillage has increased to a very great extent in the County Meath. All that shows the confidence which the people have in the Government. They are relieved to know that, if their affairs have not been completely fixed up, they are almost fixed up.

I do not think I would have said anything on this but for the fact that my stable companion, if you like to call him that—Deputy Giles—made some very wild statements here last week. I would call them very unfortunate statements. Some people would call them venemous statements. I do not blame him so much for that as I blame Deputy Dillon who gave him the lead. They both went back in their statements of the old Cumann na nGaedheal days or perhaps it was the young Fine Gael days, and said that our industries were completely abhorrent to them. Deputy Gile's statement was made on the 12th May and is reported in Volume 138 of the Dáil Debates, No. 13. It shows clearly what was in his mind, and it shows, too, the damage that it was intended to do. Speaking at column 1702 he said:—

"I stand for ordered industry, for decentralised industry, for Irish industry, but not for the thousands of tin-pot factories started by aliens and foreigners, with yellow streaks and black streaks, who do not caretwo hoots, but only to exploit the people with child labour and cheap girl labour. They want to get big dividends, and when they have money to spend they invest it in England and elsewhere. I want none of them, but the simple and plain people of the country."

That is a strange statement. There are eight or nine industries in the town of Navan. There is a furniture industry there which contributes to the national revenue by exporting quite an amount of furniture. There is also a carpet factory there. There is no child labour of any description employed in the factories there. A number of women are employed in the upholstery department of the furniture factory.

There is a boot factory in the town of Kells. Yesterday morning I actually saw the work going on there. I was pleased to learn that they are exporting quite a lot of their products to Scotland via Belfast, as well as to Holland, Norway and Sweden. That is the actual position, although Deputy Dillon says these factories could not live for a minute if they had not tariffs to support them and keep them up. That industry is giving employment to 200 people, 80 of them being women. The remainder are men, and the average wage paid is £4 10/- a week. Now, is there any charity when Deputy Giles gets up and makes such a statement as I have quoted? I do not blame him, but I blame the one who led him on, and that is Deputy Dillon.

These industries are fulfilling a very important part in this State. They are helping us to procure money from abroad. Is not that the best way that it could be done? The workers in those industries are employed under the very best conditions. The premises are air-conditioned so that there is no danger of their health being injured by dust. They have tea twice a day; they start work at 8.30 in the morning and finish at 5 o'clock in the evening. Is it the intention of those who make such statements as I have quoted to damage those industries? What are people outside of this country who would be anxious to help our industries by purchasing their products to thinkwhen they read a statement such as I have quoted, that child labour is employed in our factories and can point to the fact that that was said in the Dáil? I think that some steps should be taken to stop that sort of thing.

In conclusion, I want to refer to some figures which were given by the American economists who were here two years ago. The figures refer to the year 1948. The national income in that year was £334,000,000. Of that figure, agriculture produced 29 per cent.; industry, 21 per cent.; transport, 20 per cent., and other services between 7 and 8 per cent. Is it not quite clear from these figures that industry is beginning to play its part in the development and success of this country, and that it is giving the greatest possible help? Therefore, I objected, and felt very sore, when I read Deputy Giles's statement. I did not happen to be here when the statement was made. I hope and trust, for the sake of the country, and for the success of our industrial policy on which we are all now united, that members of the Dáil will be more careful about the statements they make in the future, and that never again will an opportunity be availed of to do harm to our industries. I hope that such statements will not be made in this Dáil again.

The Budget provides an opportunity for a general stocktaking of the economic condition of the country, and of the results of the economic policy of the Government in the course of the previous year. I think that, by any index that may be applied, it must be granted on all sides of the House that the economic position, in the course of last year, has disimproved and disimproved radically. It is in the light of that position that we have to examine the Budget. The present Budget, in effect, is a repetition of the economic policy which was imposed on the country last year, and it is that economic policy which has brought about the very critical deterioration in the overall economic position of the country.

I think it is necessary, however, that we should seek to examine, first, what the function of the budgetary policyof the Government should be. In olden times the Budget was merely a semiautomatic process whereby the Government assessed its anticipated housekeeping outlay, indicated the revenue which it would require and the manner in which that revenue would be raised. However, since the beginning of this century——

Surely it is not necessary to go back?

I do not think it should be necessary to go back but every indication that the Minister has given in introducing his Budget this year and last year shows that he does not even appreciate the elements of his function as Minister for Finance

Unfortunately, that makes it necessary for me to go back.

We got on for a very long time in this House before Deputy MacBride became a member.

I want to refer to the high unemployment figures. We should be ashamed at the lack of progress in this country in the past 30 years which has largely been the result of the type of policy which the Minister is now imposing on the country.

It has come to be recognised—certainly since the first decade of this century—that the budgetary policy of the Government has the most fundamental effect on the economic condition of a country. It controls, in effect, the purchasing power of the community and directly affects development and employment conditions in the country. It can, by direct expenditure or by direct or indirect incentive, promote capital development and promote employment.

As I said a minute ago in reply to an interjection by the Minister, it would not be necessary to state what is an obvious consideration and a well-recognised fact were it not that the Government do not seem to appreciate and certainly the Minister does not seem to appreciate the functions of his economic policy. I think it is no overstatementof the position to say that it is now well within the power of a Government to create employment or to create unemployment at will by means of its budgetary and economic policy generally. By reducing the purchasing power of the people and by restricting credit, one knows in advance that unemployment will result, unless the reduction in the purchasing power of the people is offset by an increase in the national income. Inversely, it is quite obvious, even to the merest novice, that any reduction in purchasing power must create unemployment. At first, I was rather puzzled to determine whether the Government's attitude and in particular, the Minister's attitude in these matters sprang from an ignorance of these elementary considerations or whether it was part of a cynical disregard of the consequences of the Government's economic policy on unemployment and emigration.

I think that the Minister must certainly hold the record of any Minister for Finance introducing a Budget in a modern State. He was able to make a speech consisting of 66 pages of typewritten foolscap without once mentioning the unemployment condition in the country, without once indicating that he even realises its gravity, without once indicating that he proposes to take any steps to try and deal with the position, without once adverting to the conditions which have created that unemployment in the country and without showing any realisation of his responsibility to the country in regard to unemployment.

I do not think it is possible to give the Minister a fool's pardon in that connection because I think he should himself have been able to appreciate the results of his policy. Even if he did not, he had ample warnings—and not merely from the Opposition Benches. I remember that I gave such warnings last year when the Minister introduced his Budget but the Minister was inclined to deride my warnings that his budgetary policy was bound to create unemployment. He was inclined to laugh it off and to say that it was all nonsense. If I am not mistaken,he said last year that the unemployment position would improve as a result of his Budget.

In addition to any warnings which the Minister received from the Opposition Benches he was told in no uncertain terms by the directors of the Central Bank what the results of his deflationary policy would be and what the results of the policy which they advocated would be. Surely the Minister has not forgotten that the Central Bank, in their report, advised, among other things, the reduction of public works in view of what they termed "the unusually favourable condition of employment." That was a clear indication that, in their view, it was necessary to create a bigger unemployment figure. We have now reached the position where 12 per cent. of our working population are unemployed. I think that that is one of the highest figures on record for this country for a great many years.

Apart from the warnings which the Opposition gave and apart from the clear indication which the Central Bank gave of the inevitable results of the policy which the Minister pursued in his Budget last year, the Tanaiste gave a very good description of the factors that induce unemployment when he spoke in this House on the 14th February, 1952, on the subject of unemployment. In Volume 129, column 677, of the Official Report, the Tanaiste is reported as follows:—

"It is clear, therefore, that any contraction in demand, any factors operating to induce people to buy less, are bound to have repercussions upon the output and the employment given in these industries."

It is quite obvious that the effect of the Minister's budgetary policy was to induce people to buy less. It is quite obvious that they would have less to spend. The removal of the food subsidies, the imposition of additional taxation on consumer goods, the restriction of credits—all these things would inevitable lead to a reduction in the purchasing power of the people. The people would buy less; the shopkeepers, the producers, the manufacturers would also sell less; and, accordingly,unemployment would be inevitable. It appears, therefore, that the Minister must have embarked on his present economic policy with his eyes wide open, with the full knowledge that he was going to create unemployment and increase the surge of emigration. He now has had proof that that was the result of his policy.

I wonder if he realises, even now, the full extent of the unemployment position in the country. I know how easy it is when one is under fire, under criticism the whole time, to shelve consideration of facts which are presented. I wonder if the Minister appreciates fully the extent of the economic chaos which now exists. The tragic thing about the unemployment position is that it has been becoming comparatively worse in recent months. Unemployment varies, of course, according to the different seasons of the year. We know that it reaches its highest in the winter months and its lowest in the summer months and that comparison can be of assistance only by making it with a comparable period of another year. It would be well if the Minister would ponder on these figures. For the last Saturday in January, 1951, we had 65,877 persons unemployed; in the last Saturday of January, 1953, it was 87,283, an increase of 21,406. On the last Saturday of February, 1951, we had 63,032, while on the last Saturday of February, 1953, it was 89,579, an increase of 26,547. On the last Saturday of March, 1951, we had 59,670 unemployed, while on the last Saturday of March, 1953, we had 85,541, an increase of 25,871. I notice the Minister is smiling. It seems to amuse him, but I do not see that it is any laughing matter.

I regret it. I was not smiling at the Deputy, nor did I find the Deputy amusing. I only find him boring. I was smiling at Deputy Rooney, if the Deputy wants to know.

On the last Saturday in April, 1951, we had 54,913 unemployed, while on the last Saturday in April 1953, we had 84,041, an increase of 29,128. Accordingly, in the last four months, January, February, March and April we have had a progressivelydeteriorating position where the difference in increasing unemployment compared with 1951 had increased from 21,000 to 29,000 at a time of the year when unemployment should be decreasing rapidly. These are very serious figures. In the light of that situation, in the light of a crisis of that nature that the Minister should be able to introduce a Budget dealing with the economic position at great length without once referring to unemployment, without once indicating what steps he proposes to take, without once indicating that he even now realises that that unemployment is due to his policy, is a clear indication either that he does not appreciate his responsibility or that he is completely cynical as to the results of his policy.

It has been stated from time to time from Government benches that these unemployment figures are not accurate, that the introduction of the Social Welfare Act brought into the live register persons who had not been on it before. Of course I do not think that that bears examination. All that it did was to transfer a certain number of persons who were in receipt of public assistance benefit to the class that received unemployment insurance benefit. It does not affect the total on the live register.

Just to verify that I went to the trouble of looking up the employment figures. You find, for instance, that agricultural employment which stood at 470,000 in 1950 had fallen to 441,691 by the end of 1952. Industrial employment as exemplified by those who are employed in the manufacture of goods described in statistics as "transportable goods" fell from 133,000 in December, 1951, to 125,000 in September, 1952. Those employed by local authorities on building schemes fell from 11,100 in December, 1951, to 8,600 in December, 1952. That disposes of the suggestions that the figures are in any way distorted and do not reveal the true position.

Surely we must realise that the most serious ill which any country can suffer is a high rate of unemployment such as this—12 per cent. of our working population unemployed. It must be about the highest rate in Europe now.The Minister might well say "do not repeat things that are obvious" but it is necessary to repeat these things because apparently the Minister has ignored them and refuses to face them. Nobody with any pretence of having studied social questions or studied government can deny that unemployment from the social point of view is the greatest evil which any country can suffer. From the economic point of view it is completely wasteful. From the point of view of the national income, it is completely wasteful because it means that we are maintaining and supporting a large slice, 12 per cent, of the working population who are producing nothing, whose labour and whose efforts are all wasted.

It is wasteful also from the budgetary point of view which might possibly be of more concern to the Minister. I think it is no overestimation to say that probably each unemployed man draws benefits, directly or indirectly from the State, for himself or for his family, from public assistance or in the form of unemployment benefits, of at least £2 per week, and God knows that is miserable enough. When you have 90,000 unemployed, it is costing the Exchequer, the taxpayers of this country, £180,000 per week. This is no trifling amount. However serious unemployment may be for most countries, in the case of Ireland it is even more serious, because unemployment inevitable leads to emigration. The figures over a number of years show that when you have a high rate of unemployment, you have a high rate of emigration.

Is your colleague, Deputy Dillon, not in favour of emigration?

I have never heard Deputy Dillon say he was in favour of emigration. Certainly I am not but it is quite clear from the policy the Minister is pursuing that he has no concern whatever about it, because he is promoting conditions that must lead to emigration. Either he knows that or he does not. If he does not he isnot fit to be a Minister. If he does, he is encouraging emigration with his eyes wide open.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the speech made by Sir Rowland Nugent in Belfast, and I think it would be well if I read one or two short passages from that speech. I think they are worth thinking over. Speaking in Belfast, as reported in the Irish Timesof May 16th, he said:—

"Emigration might prove the least expensive and least painful of Ulster's economic difficulties. The alternative to emigration was the ‘grim prospect' of trying to expand industry, already overdependent on overseas markets, in a contracting and unfavourable world market and to finance such expansion of industry, already starved of capital for decades, in a welfare State whose high taxation prevented those savings from which investment capital originated."

Is this the policy the Minister is pursuing? Is he pursuing a policy of promoting conditions that must lead to emigration because it might prove "the least expensive and least painful" solution of our economic ills?

Deputy Mulcahy seemed to approve of that speech. Perhaps you did not grasp that.

I do not think that Deputy Mulcahy, while I was here, said anything that would indicate that he approved of the policy of emigration.

On the contrary, it struck me that he was criticising the Minister for promoting conditions that lead to emigration.

He was commending the speech.

I am commending this speech for the Minister's consideration, and I think there is probably a good deal to be said for the more honest attitude of Sir Roland Nugent, who comes out and says that is his remedy,than for the attitude of the Minister who does not utter one word about it but promotes the conditions, with a vengeance, that must lead to a flood of emigration. Sir Roland Nugent went on:—

"Could we or should we try to solve our problems, not by increasing the means of employment to keep pace with a growing population, but, in part at least, by reducing that population by emigration? In a way, it seems mere common sense that, instead of bringing raw material and fuel to the worker and then exporting the product, the worker should go to, say, Canada, where there is ample raw material and fuel and to all appearances a market with almost unlimited possibilities for expansion and where he would find many compatriots already established... Unfortunately in Northern Ireland, the problem was already acute. We must have more capital and have it reasonably soon unless we decide to turn to emigration."

I do not know whether Sir Roland Nugent in that speech makes it quite clear that he favours that solution, but he puts it there as a query. He points out that the alternative to promoting organised emigration is to provide more capital development for the country. I do not think the Minister is so unintelligent, so simple as not to appreciate what the result of his budgetary policy is to be. I think he appreciated it fully last year when he introduced last year's Budget. He has introduced the same Budget this year and is pursuing the same policy. In the light of the experience he has gained during the year, if he had any doubt about it, he must now know that it is a policy that will create and continue to create unemployment and emigration. He is pursuing that policy with his eyes wide open, and I am therefore driven to the conclusion that he has answered in his own mind the question which Sir Roland Nugent asks—should we promote emigration? In the traditional way in which apparently the Department of Finance and the Central Bank have always answered the question, by saying "Yes. We do want to promoteunemployment and we do want to promote emigration. There should be an unemployment pool in the country." Otherwise, there is no explanation for the policy he is pursuing.

I do not know whether I should trouble myself with dealing with some of the references the Minister made in his Budget statement. Certainly he seems to undertake the standard of intelligence of the public when, for instance, he says: "Recovery in production and trade is already under way and this Budget will stimulate it." He could hardly believe that statement, having regard to the fall in production which has taken place, the fall in the production of industrial goods. Is it not sheer nonsense to ask people to produce more, while at the same time you contract credits, contract the purchasing power of the people and create unemployment and emigration? How can you expect higher production under these conditions?

The Minister, in his Budget statement, went on to say that it was satisfactory that the improvement in the balance of payments was achieved so quickly and—do listen to this—"with out any marked or general disturbance in the country's economy." Does the Minister believe that? Does anybody in the country believe that? There has been chaos in the country in the course of the last year, and the Minister knows it quite well. That is one of the reasons, I take it, that there is such reluctance to face the electorate, even in a by-election.

We do not want to lose you. That is the reason.

If you like, why not have a general election to-morrow? You will have the opportunity. Possibly, the Minister might not even hold his own seat. I do not know. I do not want to forecast. By all means, let me invite the Minister right now to have a general election. I would welcome it and, I believe, so would the majority of the people. I do not think the Minister would introduce another Budget if that occurred. Seriously, I do invite the Minister now tohave a general election. I take up his offer. Let him advise his leader to dissolve the Dáil and let him have a general election. Perhaps he might like a simpler beginning. Let his Party move the writ for the Wicklow by-election that they have been so reluctant to move.

What about East Cork?

The Wicklow seat has been vacant for some considerable period and there seems to be marked reluctance on the part of the Minister and his colleagues to face the electorate in Wicklow but should he, instead of facing the electorate in Wicklow, wish to go further, to take a plunge and face the country, by all means let him do it; we will welcome it. That is a fair offer. I think the Minister will get no opposition from this side of the House if he decides to give us an opportunity to test the country.

In this Budget speech the Minister repeated many of his well-worn Victorian tags for which the Central Bank and his Department have been famous for a great many years. I noticed that they did not like to commit themselves to inflation this year. There were some ambiguous sentences used by the Minister—I can find them for the Minister if he so desires—to the effect that we are poised between inflation and deflation. I admire the skill with which the Minister avoided committing himself this year to a positive attitude towards inflation and deflation.

I think this is worthy of notice, as indicating the mentality which lies behind the Minister's policy. He says that another matter that merits special mention is the diminution of the inflationary effect of State capital outlay. Presumably that is the diminution of employment, because that is the effect of reduced State outlay on public works. "The closer approach to monetary stability has been rescued...."— monetary stability—is that the sole criterion which motivates the Government? The question of unemployment, the question of emigration, do notmatter so long as the Minister has what he calls "monetary stability," and monetary stability in a year during which the cost of living has gone up by 20 per cent.

I heard the Minister waxing indignant to-day at question time with Deputy Norton because Deputy Norton implied in some supplementary question that the cost of living had gone up as a result of the Minister's policy —the Government's policy—it is not fair to blame the Minister solely for the policy because there is collective responsibility and apparently his colleagues do stand over him and his policy. But, taking the mid-February figures, in regard to food, at mid-February, 1951, the figure was 98 base 100, 1947, and in mid-February of this year it was 122, an increase of 24— from 98 to 122. Is that monetary stability?

The Minister seems to assume, I note from passages in his Budget statement that wages have now reached a stable position. Does he really believe that? Does he really believe that wages have yet caught up on the increases in the cost of living, increases which are continuing from day to day? We had a further increase only in the last 24 hours in the price of sugar. In the last 48 hours we had an increase in postal charges. Prices have been increasing steadily the whole time. Surely the Minister does not believe that the working population in this country can allow their real wages, the value of their wages, to be reduced in this manner without trying to compensate themselves by seeking increases in wages? Again, the Minister must have been making these statements with his tongue in his cheek.

The Minister went to great trouble in his Budget statement to decry or seek to ridicule the proposals that had been made by Deputy Costello for the formation of an investment board. I do not think he bothered putting forward any reasonable argument against it. He merely went to pooh-pooh it in general terms. Surely one of the main causes for the endemic underdevelopment and unemployment from which we suffer is the fact that we have been exporting our earnings, our capital, out of thecountry and investing it outside the country, instead of utilising it in Ireland. That is the fundamental thing that is wrong with our economy.

I had hoped that even the Minister and his colleagues had come to the point of realising that the general financial organisation, financial policy, had to be reversed, that the time had come when we had to take steps definitely to try to canalise our investments into Irish industries and Irish development. The only way in which that can be done in an organised and thorough manner is by the setting up of an investment board. May I again refer to the statement made by Sir Roland Nugent who, I am sure, cannot be described as an extreme economist? The suggestion he makes, apparently with regard to the difficulties of the Six Counties, and which is well worth considering is:—

"We must have more capital and have it reasonably soon, unless we decide to turn to emigration. I think it should be possible to devise a system by which savings actually made and invested in a suitable manner could be relieved from income-tax, while leaving the remaining income subject to full taxation. The basic principle of the method would be that already applied to covenants in favour of a charity. The taxpayer should be allowed to set aside every year a portion of income up to a specified maximum. This would be paid to a Government board which would add back the tax paid and allot the taxpayer shares in a Trust Company. There could be one Trust Company covering all objects, or a series of trusts—one dealing with investment in agriculture on the lines of an Agricultural Credit Bank, another, perhaps, helping family firms hit by death duties on the lines of the new Estates Duties Investment Trust Company, and another helping firms which desired to expand, and so on. Probably in a small area such as Ulster one, or, at most, two, such Trusts would suffice."

What is the Deputy quoting from?

From the Irish Times, May 16th. That is a proposal somewhat analogous to the setting up of an investment board. Apparently the people in the Six Counties realise that their economy, too, has been starved of the investment which is required to provide employment for their people, realise that capital has been exported to England instead of being utilised in the Six Counties for development purposes.

We suffer from the same problem here intensified a thousand fold, because the rate of investment here has been much lower than in the Six Counties. We have holdings of somewhere about £500,000,000 invested outside this country. We hold more money invested outside this country than any other country in Europe. We boast of being a creditor nation. That boast is in reality an indictment of ourselves. In a country which is suffering from underinvestment and underdevelopment the greater the amount we have outside the country the greater is our fault in starving our whole economy of the money required for its development. That can only be overcome ultimately by the creation of an investment board which will, on an organised basis, plan for the repatriation of foreign investments and for the utilisation of those foreign investments in productive projects here.

The Minister in his Budget statement paid some passing tribute to the fact that he had received a good contribution from the Central Bank, presumably from the holdings of sterling assets in the name of the Central Bank. But I notice he was very silent as to the rate of interest which the Central Bank was receiving on these sterling assets. Is it still only receiving 1? per cent.? That is a matter upon which we might have some information when the Minister replies. It would also be of interest to obtain from the Minister some indication of the losses sustained by the Government on their holdings of sterling assets as a result of the catastrophic fall in the value of British gilt-edged securities in the course of last year.

Coming back to this question of being a creditor nation, I wonder hasit ever occurred to the Minister and his advisers that, in a situation such as the one through which we have lived in the last quarter of a century where the value of money in relation to its purchasing power has declined steadily, there is very little advantage in being a creditor, that all the advantages are in favour of the debtor, and that countries such as England, which are not unwise in financial matters, are never disturbed at the fact that they are debtor nations? It is quite obvious that in a situation such as this the debtor is in a favourable position. He has less to repay as the value of the money becomes less. On the other hand, the creditor who has lent money either by way of goods or cash has the pleasure of watching his money which he has lent to another country dwindling in value year by year.

Are we to continue maintaining these vast sums of investments abroad until they have depreciated to such an extent that they will serve no useful purpose at all? We have already lost very considerable sums in the course of the last few years by allowing this money to remain there depreciating continuously. I think that any person who examines the position must come to the conclusion that in a situation such as the one through which we have been living, all the advantages are in favour of the debtor and all the disadvantages accrue to the creditor nation.

I wonder, too, does it ever occur to the Minister's advisers to ask themselves what happens the money which we lend to Britain and the British Government. What does the British Government borrow this money for? What do they utilise these vast sums for? They borrow the money at a very cheap rate of interest from us. What do they use it for? They use it to build houses, they use it to promote industrial development, they use it to promote agricultural development, they use it to promote afforestation in England, they use it to pay for their social services. Would it not be better if we were to use this money for these purposes rather thanlend it to the British Government at a cheap rate of interest?

These things may sound at first somewhat removed from the Budget, but I think they are extremely relevant because, if I read the Minister's mind aright, if I interpret correctly the policy of the Minister and the Government and their advisers, they are imposing this deflationary policy, a policy which must lead to unemployment and emigration and which imposes hardship on the people, for the sole reason of being able to maintain and build up sterling assets. In my view, such a policy is criminal and is nationally unsound.

Before dealing with the various points with which I wish to deal I want to know where Deputy J. A. Costello got the £10,000,000 that we were alleged to have over last year. Last year Deputy Costello, a responsible Deputy and ex-Taoiseach, made a very foolish, wild and misleading statement and, remembering that statement, I hope the people now will judge his utterances this year on their merits in relation to that statement. Surely the people must appreciate now the irresponsibility of a statement alleging that the Minister for Finance, a member of a democratic Government, was trying to Budget for £10,000,000 more than was actually required. Deputy Costello stated here that we would have a surplus of £10,000,000 this year. I hope the people will consider these statements and weigh the support given to them by Deputy Costello's colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench, who follow the same line of thought and make the same foolish and misleading allegations. At the risk of being hackneyed, let me quote again:—

"The evil that men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones."

If those lines were ever applicable to any Party, they can charitably be applied to the ——

Fianna Fáil Party.

——the inter-Party Government.

Let us deal first of all with the agricultural industry. For years we, in Fianna Fáil, tried to encourage the farmers by grants and subsidies and other subventions.

And the economic war.

Do not play England's game. We did not force the economic war on the country. It was England who did that. I am surprised a responsible Deputy like you would come along and make a statement of that kind. We tried to do one thing: we tried to keep this country for the Irish people. England tried to break the spirit of old Ireland at that time as she did for hundreds of years before that and as she is trying to do now; and you and your followers helped her a long way on that road.

I assure the Deputy I did not.

I am sorry. It took Fianna Fáil a number of years to encourage the farmers to adopt a tillage policy. A number of our farmers always went in for tillage. A number of them never wanted to till and it took Fianna Fáil many years to induce them to adopt a tillage policy. As a result of that inducement we succeeded in getting a number of our farmers to go in for more tillage and that policy had certain beneficial results. More employment was given to our people and those who might otherwise have been compelled to seek employment in other countries were able to stay at home and work at home.

We made every effort to develop all phases of agriculture. In 1948 when Fianna Fáil went out of office numbers of workers were employed on the land. Several Ministers in the inter-Party Government alleged we had inspectors going around the country, that we had this, that and the other. When they left office in 1951 their Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, had killed an industry we had taken years to build up; he had changed the tillage policy to such a degree that thousands of our people were thrown out of employment. The Fianna Fáil Government has never believed in the policyof coercion or in the policy of compulsory tillage but certain steps had to be taken during the emergency period to render our people as self-supporting as it was possible to make them. Directly the inter-Party Government came into office they proceeded to misrepresent us, to allege that everything we did was done from a venomous point of view. We did nothing, according to them, on any laudable grounds.

I congratulate Deputy Dillon on successfully fulfilling two roles during his term in office: firstly, in trying as far as he could to run the agricultural workers off the land and, secondly, in encouraging our workers to go into foreign industries. Deputy Dillon appeared to have a particular liking for foreign industries in relation to agriculture, such as maize, tomatoes, fruit and various other commodities. He was very anxious to import these things. When I tried to get reasonable protection for our agricultural industries in County Dublin, Deputy Dillon, then Minister for Agriculture, was very versatile in misrepresenting what I asked him to do on occasions of that kind. He was, as a matter of fact, frivolous on occasions and he was supported by Clann na Poblachta, Fine Gael, Labour and all the rest of them. They were all clapping him on the back.

On a point of order. Is this a debate on the Budget or a debate on Deputy Dillon?

I was waiting to see if the Deputy would come to the Budget.

It is such an eloquent speech I think it is desirable that a few more Deputies should listen to it.

Relevancy is more important than eloquence. Perhaps the Deputy would make his statement relevant to the motion before the House.

I am speaking to the points that were made here.

On a point or order. I said that this is such an eloquentspeech I thought we might have the requisite number of Deputies to hear it.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

I was referring to the unemployment that was caused by our predecessors. We now have to try to make amends for their misdeeds. When I was dealing with a few points like that Deputy Sweetman thought well of interrupting me.

On a point of order. Is it an interruption to indicate that there is not a House present?

I cannot pontificate on these finer points.

On numerous occasions I had to ask the previous Minister for Agriculture and the inter-Party Government was it their policy to kill the industries which we had established and which we were anxious to build up in our country in order to create employment, to make the country self-supporting and capable of exporting surplus produce. The Fianna Fáil Government gave every possible encouragement, by way of subsidies and other assistance, to our farmers and fruit growers. They were told that if we had not a market for anything they produced we would try to get a market abroad. In three years of inter-Party Government that whole trend of our agricultural economy was destroyed by the flippant Minister for Agriculture, supported by the other members of his Government. The responsibility lies with them, and it took us years to develop our agricultural industries to a satisfactory level. When you stop or change the trend of things in an industry of that kind and when people become discouraged and are turned away from a type of industry they have engaged in over a long number of years, it is not easy to get them back to their former ways.

Tomatoes are now 3/6 per lb

You are one of thegeniuses anxious to kill anything of an Irish outlook or any possibility of developing and Irish industry. It is that cat-crying which is responsible for having us as we are to-day.

Who will be so daft as to buy your tomatoes at 3/6 per lb.? People cannot afford it and you know it. It is like the butter.

To deal with another side——

You are getting away from the tomatoes.

Deputy McMenamin possibly, with his friend the Minister for Agriculture, has a greater interest in the Dutch tomato growers and giving employment to the Dutch workers than he has in our Irish workers.

The Deputy knows what we are discussing here is the financial policy of the Government.

That is true and that is what I am defending to the very best of my ability, the financial policy of the Government. I have cited what we have tried to do; we gave the maximum encouragement to our agricultural industry, to the tillage farmers, to our tomato growers, fruit growers, and so on. In every phase of our agricultural industry we have tried to create the maximum amount of employment. One of the reasons why I did go back over the last three years was that I had to point out to this House the harm that had been done to the country. The responsibility lies at the door of the inter-Party Government who did all the damage they could and put a number of people, who were in gainful employment up to the time they came in, out of employment. We are trying to remedy that.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but so far he seems to me to be very far away from the Financial Motion.

I bow to your able ruling, Sir, but I am merely asking a question. The last speaker dealt entirely with unemployment and I ampointing out where the unemployment started and what we are doing in an endeavour to create employment.

I will now refer once more to our industries in the light of the conditions in the constituency which I have the honour to represent. In County Dublin in 1951 I found a number of our factory workers idle. The reason they were idle was again the stockpiling policy of the inter-Party Government. Instead of importing raw material they imported the manufactured article. We are suffering from the effects of that policy still; a number of our wholesale houses in the City of Dublin and all over the country have also felt its effects. During that period a number of our people were thrown out of employment.

The present Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Seán Lemass, has done everything possible to give industrialists in this country all the protection necessary. He has gone further than that. He has introduced an Insurance Bill to encourage our industrialists even to export their goods. As a Party we have left no stone unturned to see that loans would be put at the disposal of our industrialists and everybody who wanted to go into industry. There again we have the spectacle in this House of responsible Ministers threatening, during the three years they were in office, to put certain industrialists behind double doors. It is no use getting up in this House using cat cries; we must definitely get down to hard facts as to what is responsible for the position in which we find ourselves to-day. I do not think I am being in the least uncharitable; I doubt if anybody could say that I ever was, but I must tell the truth. I lay the whole blame for the position we are in to-day at the door of the inter-Party Government. However, as a result of our budgetary policy this year and last year we are definitely bringing the country back to a satisfactory standard. No responsible Minister in any democratic country will impose taxation unless the national necessity demands that he should impose it. Surely no one would suggest we would do that for any other purpose.

We, as a Party, had to do the most unpopular things to improve the economy of the country. Even in 1948, when we were in opposition, Deputy Lemass then said: "We are giving you the country in a sound financial position: I hope we will get it back the same." Unfortunately we did not get it back the same. It was very unpleasant for any Government to have to adopt the attitude that we were compelled to adopt on the introduction of the 1952 Budget. We knew that everything we were about to do would be politically bad for us, but we decided to be honest with the people of Ireland and we put the interest of the people before the interest of our own Party. I am sure the people of Ireland realise that.

The unemployed do not realise it.

You are one of the archangels in this country alleged to be representing Labour, but you are one of those who backed Deputy Dillon when he was throwing people out of employment.

The Deputy will address the Chair, and Deputy O'Leary will please restrain himself.

The Deputy seems to have got "a thing" about Deputy Dillon.

I hold them all responsible. I shall take the cue from Deputy Dockrell on this occasion. It is better to hold them all responsible and not one individual. Will that suit Deputy Dockrell?

Make your own speech.

During 1951 I went down to Balbriggan and to Lucan, and I was told that hundreds of workers had been thrown out of employment as a result of the policy of the inter-Party Government. Since 1951 the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been trying to clean up the mess left by his predecessor, and he is finding it very difficult to do so. Almost every day since, he has been finding lists of manufactured commodities importedby his predecessors. I ask members of the last Government, and Deputy O'Leary, one of their disciples who interrupted me a few moments ago, what was their idea in doing this or have they any policy at all? Possibly they had some interest in foreign industries and were anxious to provide work for foreign labour. That is the only explanation I can see of their policy. We are now supposed to wield a magic wand and to undo in one year, even in one night, all the damage they did for three years.

I respectfully suggest that whilst that may appear reasonable to Opposition Deputies, we have no magic wand for solution of the country's ills, but at least we did take up where we left off in 1948. We are going the right way about it, as the people of Ireland realise, and the cat calls of Deputy O'Leary and company are not going to put us off the track. Having given maximum protection and every possible encouragement to agriculturists and industralists, we hope to be able to provide full employment for our people as quickly as possible. We have tried to get an export market and we shall continue with our efforts in that direction. We have improved social services and we shall continue with that policy so far as the country can afford it. We are not neglecting anything. I would ask members of the inter-Party Government to examine their consciences. Future historians will have to deal lightly with them if they are not to appear in a very bad light because, if they have any consciences at all, they must realise that some of the statements they have made—and I say this advisedly—in trying to misrepresent us and the efforts we are making to rebuild the country, are not at all worthy of the people whom they have the honour to represent in this House.

This Budget has a considerable air of rectitude about it. The Minister introduced it with the professed intention of doing a great deal of good for the country but actually that was an entirely specious argument. Boiled down, the Budget isbut an explanation, with some important omissions, of the present situation and with very little in it in the way of proposals for the alleviation of the many ills which beset us at the present moment. As well as introducing an air of rectitude, the Minister seemed to think that he was putting the ship of State on an even keel and that, notwithstanding the machinations of various persons and the alleged mishandling of the country during the period of office of the inter-Party Government, he was now making everything right. One of the matters to which the Minister did not refer was unemployment, nor did he speak about the state of trade in the country at the present time. These are two matters which hang together. You cannot have an unemployment figure of 84,000, as we have at the moment, without having the difficult position which exists in the present state of trade. The volume of trade has dropped and, not unnaturally, unemployment figures have risen enormously. With the colossal figure of unemployment which we have, the highest in the history of this country, we are carrying a burden which is really beyond the capacity of the country because not only have we to support these people, but we have to pay for the many ills which generally accompany unemployment. Unemployment spells increased hospitalisation and increased sick benefits.

I was interested to hear Deputy MacBride refer to the unemployment figures as being something in the neighbourhood of 90,000. He reckoned that each one of those individuals costs the State £2 per week. Strangely enough, I myself had arrived at a figure of £2 per week as being a very rough estimate of the direct financial payment which the community makes per week to an unemployed man. That will give some idea of what unemployment costs us in terms of money, but we cannot make any computation of what it costs us in terms of human misery except that we do know it brings all sorts of other difficulties along with it. I would remind the House that in the early 1930's it was reckoned that the colossal figures in respect of unemployment in Germany—I think they rose to something like 8,000,000—caused the rise of Hitlerism. I am not envisaging anything like that in this country. I merely mention that as the type of ill which follows on large unemployment figures.

We have, of course, in this country the outlet for our unemployed and that is the emigration ship. That is one of the most tragic things which we have in our economy. It is a very difficult subject indeed to deal with. Successive Governments have made certain efforts to deal with the problem but no Government has succeeded in solving it but at least what we may expect from a Government is that the financial policy they pursue is one which is designed to help the country at large and is being used as an instrument for the furtherance of the economic policy of the country. How on earth can trade improve with the handicaps it is carrying at the present moment and with 80,000 odd—I have a figure of 84,000—unemployed? That is the outward and visible sign of the financial policy followed by this Government. We know that the figure of 84,000 is one which is a great deal higher than it was three years ago under the inter-Party Government.

Deputy Burke spoke about unemployment during the period of the inter-Party Government. Actually, of course, there was a period when employment figures were never higher and unemployment figures were the lowest they had been for many years. Yet, the Minister when talking about the state of the country says:—

"It is satisfactory that the improvement in the balance of payments to which I have referred was achieved so quickly and without any marked or general disturbance of the country's economy."

Has the Deputy the reference?

Yes. It is column 1182, Volume 138, No. 10 of the Official Debates. The above seems a remarkable statement when we take cognisance of the fact that our unemployment figures were never higher than they are at the present momentand that our volume of trade has declined.

The Minister, in his Budget speech, referred with pride to the drop in our imports of £32.4 million. Indeed, the Minister referred with pride on previous occasions to the drop in our imports. I wonder does the Minister and the Government generally realise that if you stop goods and raw materials coming into the country to the extent of £32,000,000 you are inevitably bound to have a falling off in trade? You cannot take that amount of money out of the national turnover, because that is what it is, without having a consequent fall in trade and a rise in unemployment figures. That is exactly what has happened. That is exactly what we predicted would happen.

If you asked any sensible fair-minded and open-minded businessman what would happen if you cut down drastically the imports, he would say, of course: "You will be able to do less business and give less employment". That is what has happened. The financial policy which brought about a reduction in our imports to that extent has also brought about a restriction of credit. It has been denied that the Minister's financial policy has had that effect but every businessman knows that all over the country there has been in the last couple of years a considerable restriction of credit which can have only one effect, namely, a decrease in the volume of trade and a rise in unemployment.

During the Vote on Account when I, and, indeed, other people, referred to the bad effect the Government's financial policy was having on trade generally and on employment, the Minister said they were carrying out Government works and that there had been no fall in the amount of money the Government spent on public works of various types. In fact, he poohpoohed the idea that the financial policy had led to a trade slump or a trade recession. I am glad to see he has had a change of heart because the burden of his argument was that the general financial policy did not really matter and, in fact, had not changed because the Government were themselvespushing ahead with public works and that the ordinary commercial transactions, beside the Government works, almost paled into insignificance. The Minister, speaking at column 1181, Volume 138, No. 10, Dáil Debates, said:—

"... it is salutary to remind ourselves that, while the activities of the State have a considerable influence, they are not of predominant importance in our economy. Private decisions as to work, investment, consumption and savings play a major part in shaping the course of our economic and financial affairs."

I am very glad to see that the Minister recognises that private decisions play a major part in shaping the course of our financial and economic affairs, because it is the financial policy which the Minister inaugurated, and which his Government backed up, which has directly led to the fall in the volume of trade and the consequent rise in unemployment. The financial policy of the Government or, if you like, of this country should be an instrument used for the economic well-being and happiness of all our people. That is what the economic policy of a country should do, but the economic policy which the Government has been following during the past two years is one which has led inevitably to a trade slump and unemployment. I hope, now that the Minister realises the importance of the thousand and one decisions which are made every day in business and agriculture, that he will not continue to follow a policy which is bound to render the work that the ordinary individuals do impossible: in other words, that he will not continue to implement a financial policy that renders those decisions impossible.

The Minister referred with a good deal of pleasure to the fact that the balance of payments this year represented a deficit of £9,000,000, a figure which, he said, the Central Statistics Office had given to him. I should like if the Minister would give the House details of how that figure of £9,000,000 was arrived at. I do so because nodetails have been given so far, and the details are of very great importance. I should also like to ask him whether, in the figures which make up the deficit of £9,000,000, emigrants' remittances have been taken into account, and also what figure, if any, has been allowed for the payments made by tourists to the country. We have had a whole financial policy carried out on the assumption that the balance of payments must be reduced, and it has been reduced to £9,000,000. It is, naturally, of the greatest importance to know whether that figure of £9,000,000 takes into account all the factors in our economy. We, on this side of the House, consider that we have paid a very high price indeed for bringing the balance of payments down to £9,000,000. Therefore, it is of vital importance to know just how far every favourable factor has been taken into account.

I refer to the drop in imports of £32.4 millions. That, of course, means a very considerable reduction in imports of raw materials and goods. What many of us would like to know is whether there is not some other way less destructive of our national economy and less damaging to human beings than suddenly to cut off £32,000,000 worth of imports. Credit is our life blood. It is the life blood of all communities, whether business or agricultural. Any restriction in that direction has dangerous consequences and is bound to have dangerous consequences. Therefore, what many people are wondering to-day is just how far is this restriction absolutely necessary to our economy, especially when we take into consideration that we are operating inside the sterling area.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the financial policies which were inaugurated in Great Britain and which seem to be slavishly followed over here. That is a question which many of us in this country are very concerned about at the present moment. We are mainly an agricultural country with a small amount of exports. The overwhelming amount of our exports go either to Northern Ireland or Great Britain,which are inside the same financial area as ourselves. Great Britain is one of the largest commercial and manufacturing countries in the world and follows a financial policy which is geared to assist in every possible way the tremendous overseas exports which she carries. We are an agricultural country. Many of our problems are different from those of Great Britain. How far are we wise in following the financial policies which are designed to help a great manufacturing country when we ourselves are a small agricultural country? What Deputy Mulcahy had to say is very relevant to the whole economy of Ireland. We seem to follow these policies without having a very clear idea as to whether or not they are good for us.

Would the Deputy tell us where we have followed these policies?

You have followed the financial policy.

Will the Deputy be good enough to prove his assertion by giving us some facts?

You follow the financial policy.

In what way?

The restriction of credit.

Did the Minister not go over to Mr. Butler?

There has been no restriction of credit.

There has not.

Every person who has been engaged in business in this country in the past two or three years knows that there has been a restriction of credit.

For people who have had unwieldy or non-liquid stocks. I suppose they have to meet their bank obligations some time. Would the Deputy give us some other facts?

That is one of overwhelming and overriding importance.

It does not happen to be true. Would the Deputy give us some other evidence? It may be true in the case of some business which is bordering on insolvency, but it is not true in the case of a sound business.

The Minister is not correct. What he is stating is not a fact. At column 1210 of the Official Report of Wednesday, 6th May, 1953, the Minister in his Budget speech referred to the committee which he is going to set up to inquire into the incidence of direct taxation on production. I am glad to see that the Minister said:—

"One of the more recent, but most persistent contentions is that the present incidence of the tax——"

—that is, income-tax——

"——constitutes a positive deterrent to the modernisation and extension of productive capacity."

It has taken the Government a long time to learn that. I trust that the view which is somewhat timidly put forward there by the Minister will have a good effect when the committee meets. I should like the Minister to make the terms of reference of that committee wider than just "the incidence of direct taxation on production". I should like to see that committee go into the whole question of the income-tax code. That is another example of following blindly a code which was set up for a different set of circumstances. Income-tax was originally introduced in Great Britain and, again, it was considered a good method of raising revenue in a highly-industrialised country. We are not a highly-industrialised country: we are an agricultural country. I should like to see this committee inquire into how far the income-tax code can be simplified and rendered more capable of use in a country which is largely agricultural.

At column 1191 of his Budget speech the Minister tried to make a case for the decline in the consumption of spirits when he said:—

"It is believed that a declining trend in the consumption of spirits had set in before the last Budget and would have continued even if there had been no increase in duty. Indeed, a tendency for the consumption of spirits to decline has been a marked phenomenon in several countries over the past two or three years."

That contention is very strenuously resisted by the Irish Pot Distillers' Association. The Minister further says:—

"...there is good reason to believe that consumption was not affected to the extent that the reduction in clearances from bond would suggest..."

The Irish Pot Distillers' Association protest very strongly against that statement by the Minister. They say it is not true. They say that, in fact, there has been a fall in the consumption of home-made spirits of over 200,000 proof gallons and a fall in revenue of between £300,000 and £400,000. I appeal to the Minister on behalf of such a very old industry. Surely it is not in the interests of this country to allow such an industry to pay the extraordinary and enormous amount which they have to carry? It will mean inevitably that that industry will die and the trade will go entirely to the Scotch distilleries. There is a greater potential dollar export, I believe, and it would be a pity that this industry should be hampered to the extent it is in its home market when it could be such an earner of dollars for us.

In conclusion, I would point out that this Budget has really altered nothing. It is an "as-you-were" Budget. There is a great deal of talk in it but practically nothing of any consequence to deal with the very serious situation in which we find ourselves. It is very serious to have rising unemployment figures and at the same time the fall in trade which has gone on for the last two years. During the early part of the year we heard a good deal about efforts to reduce taxation. There is not a word of any consequence in thisBudget statement about that. There is no real effort to reduce taxation or the cost of government. There is very little in it about the real questions which are of vital importance and there is not real approach to the two fundamental things from which we are suffering—the high figures for unemployment, which are taxing the capacity of this country to the utmost and the other very real question which goes hand in hand with it, namely, the fall in the volume of trade.

The country expected the Minister to deal with these two questions, to put forward some proposals of a serious sort for rendering the effect of these two things less harsh on the country. That has not happened. We have had an unreal statement, nicely delivered, but a statement which does not help us in the very difficult times that lie ahead.

I will be very brief. I have listened to this debate over many days, and to the Minister inside the House and through the Press trying to blame the inter-Party Government for all the damage that has been done. In 1948 when the inter-Party Government was formed and took over, we had to reduce taxation by £6,000,000, which was put on by a Fianna Fáil Minister in 1947. We had also at that time to increase the old age pensions, to give the people of rural areas—who had to depend on 2/6 along with 12/6 old age pension—an increase of 5/-. I was glad to be in a Government that did that. We had a Minister—the late Tim Murphy, God rest him—who put direct labour housing schemes in operation at full steam throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. To-day I find in my own town, Enniscorthy, and throughout the County Wexford, housing schemes coming to an end, the men that we called home from Britain, the tradesmen, going back again every night as there is no prospect of employment. What is happening the forestry workers—I was listening to Deputy Burke—who are becoming unemployed because their Estimate was cut down by £250,000?

When we came into the inter-Party Government we found this countrywithout bacon. You would not see a pig on the road—until Deputy Dillon became Minister for Agriculture. The bacon factories were on short time. In my own town the men were working three days a week in Buttles Bacon Factory, until the inter-Party Government came in and pig production was given an upward trend and agriculture was put on the right road. We had two Ministers for Agriculture previous to that, Deputy Dr. Ryan and Deputy Smith. What was their policy? They threatened the farmer with an inspector for every acre. They slaughtered the calves and exported the heifers. That is why you have a scarcity of butter and milk in the country to-day, and why you have to import butter from New Zealand and shove it down the people's necks in Dún Laoghaire and Bray, according to the papers this morning.

I say to the Minister that the Budget was very bad for the poor people. There is no relief in it. A few days before that, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs announced increased charges for telephones and stamps. What did we find yesterday morning in the news? An extra half-penny on sugar. If this Government remains in office, I suppose we will have the Minister for Industry and Commerce telling us the advisory body tells him to increase the price of cigarettes and tobacco. Surely the ordinary Deputies sitting behind the Minister, if they are mixing with the public and the people who elected them, have heard complaints from the unemployed? Deputy Killilea comes from Galway. I see a statement about the serious unemployment problem in the City of Galway. The same thing applies all over and the Government is doing nothing about it. They are making no honest effort, but people are asking what they are to do because they cannot live on the dole. It is no remedy to have men signing at the labour exchanges, drawing benefit for the few stamps they have for six months and then going back on unemployment assistance. I have here an extract from the Irish Pressdated 29th October, 1945, with the heading “Cure for Emigration” which reads:—

"A very successful inter-cumanndebate was held under the auspices of the Fintan Lalor Cumann Fianna Fáil in the Rossa Hall, Rathmines, when the motion: ‘That Conscription is the only cure for Emigration was passed."

That is something for the members of the Government to think over. I am sure the Minister for Finance presided at that meeting because that is his area.

It does not seem to be relevant to the financial motion.

Emigration is very relevant at the moment. I want to bring to the Minister's attention also this extract from a speech delivered by my colleague, Deputy Hickey, on 27th November, 1951. The Deputy was referring to the Hospitals' Trust Fund and he said:

"When the inter-Party Government came into office I availed of that opportunity. I got an answer with full details and I found that the Hospitals' Trust Fund had been lent as far away as Newfoundland, Ceylon, New Zealand, Trinidad, Nigeria, Rhodesia and Scottish agricultural stock at 3 per cent. and a number of English corporations and municipalities at 3 per cent. and 3¼ per cent. That money was lent to these far-away places at rates of interest of from 2½ per cent. to 3½ per cent., while Cork Corporation had to pay 5 per cent. in order to build houses for our people."

I ask any member of the Government if he agrees that our money should be invested in foreign countries and if it is a sin to bring back the money invested there to put men to work in this country? Instead, we have this money given to far-away places, which should not happen. The like of the numbers queueing up at the labour exchange in my town of Enniscorthy has never been seen before. They have to have two shifts, and that is happening in other towns. I say that it is the duty of the Government to provide employment, to provide houses for our people, to clothe and feed our people and not to sit back and think thatthings are all right because they have bought Tulyar and were able to parade him at the Curragh for all the big boys to clap. Let them put the Taoiseach or the Minister on Tulyar and let him go round the labour exchanges and see if the unemployed will clap him then. The present Government are too long in office. They have had 18 years of office—they were out for three years and they got the fright of their lives.

The voters got the fright of their lives.

You got Deputy Cowan, Deputy Cogan and the rest of them to put you back, but this country would be on its feet now if you had not got back and there would be no unemployment. It would be growing stronger as it was growing stronger when the inter-Party Government were in power. Deputy Dillon did good for the farmers, as the farmers admit, and as Deputy Allen knows, but he could not say a good word about Deputy Dillon. Deputy Dillon, as Minister, put the farmers of Wexford on their feet. He provided lime at 16/- a ton.

We are sending it down from Skerries.

Deputy Dillon says that we should not have any Irish tomatoes.

Poor people are not able to buy Irish tomatoes.

He gave them protection all the same.

The Government will have to wake up because the people will not stick this for too long. The most dangerous thing a country can have is an army of unemployed. I saw them marching in Wexford in 1934 and lying outside the county home as a protest against the county council, of which Deputy Allen was a member, and we could have them marching on Leinster House before long. I admire the spirit of the Civil Service. They marched and carried their banners and were not ashamed. By doing so, they made the Minister and the Government take notice, but so long as our workers allow themselves to be gulled by catchcries and flag waving, they need notexpect any better treatment. Every member of the Government got Labour votes—they are not all in office because of the votes of the big shots—and the day of reckoning will come. If the unemployed to-day had their opportunity they would sweep Fianna Fáil off the market.

We are not on the market.

They would sweep Fianna Fáil away—not only the men, but their wives and sons and daughters—and we will probably see that soon in Wicklow and in Cork. We have the high cost of living with butter 4/2 a lb. in an agricultural country and we boast about the Minister who increased butter to that price.

Does the Deputy want the farmers to go back again to 3½d. per gallon?

The farmers shook you when they marched on Leinster House during the strike.

And they put them in jail.

They made the Government take notice.

You filled the jails often, and the graveyards, too.

I wonder was Deputy Rooney with them or against them in that march?

They made the Government take notice anyhow, and by their action they got the increase.

Deputy O'Leary should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

We have had appeals by the President for unity, but when they see good Irishmen here insulting each other across the floor, the people outside have their own views. Why, if you are honest about unity, will you not stop talking about the civil war and stop insulting men on this side of the House who made sacrifices, too— as many as you did—but who were notpaid for them? If Deputy Allen wants to take a shot at me, he can do so. He should get up and make a speech on behalf of the people of Wexford, as I do. Does he think everyone there is satisfied with the present position, in which road workers are unemployed and Local Authority (Works) Act grants cut down, with men in rural areas idle and emigrating? The people did not expect that that would be the position under any Government, whether it was Fianna Fáil or the inter-Party Government. I am surprised at some of the people who are supporting the Government who were very vocal about certain things when the inter-Party Government were in power but who are very silent now.

The day the Irish people put out the politicians the better. They go on the platform and promise them the sun, moon and stars. The inter-Party Government promised them ten points. The Fianna Fáil Party promised them 17 points. They promised the people that they would not withdraw the food subsidies. I heard that being said in Wexford. I read it in the papers. They promised that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power, they would not reimpose the taxes on tobacco and they would not interfere with the food subsidies. They forgot all that. I do not blame the members on the front benches for that because there is not an all-Ireland team that switches as often as the present group of Ministers switch. The Minister for Education switched over to Lands. The Minister for Agriculture became the Minister for Health. There is not a team in Croke Park that has switched so often.

You people played with a few extra men.

You had to get the extra men this time.

You did not switch; you jumped into Cumann na nGaedheal.

They were not bad after all. They did not burn down the country or anything. They tried to build it up. They are the people who first started the sugar factories when you called them white elephants. Onemust give credit where it is due and not throw muck all the time.

We did not reduce the old age pensions.

You should never mention the old age pensions because what you are giving to-day is a disgrace.

Fianna Fáil reduced them by taxation.

How much would you give?

Deputy Cunningham has already spoken and should allow Deputy O'Leary to continue without interruption.

I do not mind Deputy Cunningham. He is new to the House. He will get sense by and by. We should be ashamed of old age pensions at the rate of 21/6 per week.

Why did not you tell the Coalition Government that?

We doubled it in our time.

We would have given them 30/- if we had been in power, only you got around Deputy Cowan and Deputy Cogan.

Any advance on 30/-?

Listen here——

If Deputy O'Leary would address the Chair, perhaps these interruptions might cease.

Sometimes they are healthy. Talking about old age pensions, I know an Old I.R.A. man who was out in 1916, in my own time. He went over to Britain and stayed there for nine years. He is back again and is drawing 34/- a week at 65 years of age. One man went to the labour exchange. He had years' stamps on his card. He was offered two years' benefit. He said he would not bother about it, if de Valera would not give him any more when Churchill gave34/- for nine years. That is a single man. I know cases of married men for whom I signed certificates, who are getting allowances for their wives, having spent a few years in Britain, to which they were compelled to go. Then we talk about 21/6. Deputies opposite do not tell us about all the people who are denied the old age pension through the means test because they have a few acres of land. There are several such cases in my own constituency. There is the case of a widow who, because she has a small bit of land, gets only 11/-.

These questions of administration arise on the Estimates, not on the Financial Resolutions.

I am replying to the interruptions.

There is no necessity to reply to interruptions.

The Minister should examine his conscience. The people are asked to increase production. How can production be increased if the majority of our people are unemployed, if farm labourers have to go over to Britain to till for the people on the other side? They will get £5 a week over there whereas we give them only £4 and in some cases less. If the Government want a happy, contented nation, they must give the people fair wages and a lower cost of living. Think of all the people who are unemployed. Think of the hundreds who are trying to exist on home assistance. I know, and Deputy Allen knows, that our county manager asked the local authority this year for £27,500 for home assistance cases in County Wexford. That reveals an appalling state of affairs. What is the position in Dublin, where everything is very dear, where it costs 2d. or 3d. in bus fare to get to Moore Street to purchase vegetables?

The people expected to get reliefs under this Budget. Shopkeepers expected reliefs. The public gallery was full of shopkeepers from the city onBudget day. Vintners expected reliefs. The wholesale bottlers expected reliefs so that employment could be provided. There is no sign of any relief. The Government are continuing the policy of blaming the inter-Party Government. That is no excuse. That will not go down in the country. The Government promised to bring down the cost of living but they increased it. You promised full employment but you denied it to the people. By increasing the interest for housing loans you are slowing up the housing programme. There are restrictions on credit. There is no use in the Minister saying there are not. You must have two very good securities now to get £100 from any bank manager. There are restrictions even on local authorities.

When the inter-Party Government were in power there was plenty of work. In the rural areas in my constituency there were very few unemployed. The people were employed at drainage, land reclamation, road works and housing schemes. To-day that employment is all gone. Nobody knows that better than Deputy Allen, because I am sure he has been approached by unemployed people looking for work from the county council as I have been. The unemployed are going to England whenever they can get a job. They are going every night.

They are coming back in greater numbers.

They must have been coming back for An Tóstal. Coming from Tipperary as he does, I thought the Deputy would be more honest.

There are three coming back for the one going out.

I should like to get that on record, that there are three coming back for the one going out. That may be the case in your area. I hope it is true with regard to the Golden Vale.

It is true.

I hope the unemployed will see that statement. They will be asking you next week about where they are coming back. Every boatleaving this country is taking them away. At Rosslare harbour every night, especially on Saturday nights, the boats are booked out. You can get the returns at Wexford and Enniscorthy stations and at Deputy Allen's own town of Gorey.

They are tourists going on holidays.

They are hungry people who are going away.

There is no use in bickering across the House about it because it will get us nowhere. You should try to get the Government to wake up to the fact otherwise all of you will lose your seats. The Minister will probably get back all right but the rank and file will be swept away.

That would be no great harm.

It would be a good job for the country. That is what we are here to do.

Deputy O'Leary would not like to see the old back benchers going. Would he not be too lonely?

There are a good many old back benchers gone. They were honest men, but the younger men are not as honest. They have only recently come into the Dáil and they have to be told what to do. Anything could happen in this country with the mass unemployment which we have. Nothing could be more dangerous than to have an army of unemployed and their dependents. They are a menace in every country. Something should be done about them. We are told that there is unemployment in England. Where do our people find employment when they go over there? Every boy and girl who leaves here can walk into a job there the next day. We cannot provide work for them here.

The housing schemes should be kept going no matter what Government is in power. The housing situation in the City of Dublin and in the country districts is very bad. There are not half enough houses for the people who require them. If we are to keep ouryoung men in the rural areas, we must provide houses for them so that they can settle down and work for the farmers. There are no prospects for them now in the rural areas or in the towns. Another problem which will have to be faced is the rents of the houses which are being provided which are beyond the reach of the working classes.

The Deputy may not deal with the question of rents on the Financial Resolution.

If we want to keep our people at home and if there is to be any future for the country, we must provide employment for the people. We read in the papers about special trains carrying people from the North of Ireland who are going to Canada to build up the British Commonwealth there. Northern Ireland is doing that, but we should not do it. All these young men will be dragged into a world war. They are leaving the Six Counties and they are being joined in Dublin by men from the South. That is very bad and, no matter what Government is in power, they should stop it. The only way to stop it is to provide work. Doles are no good; they are a pure waste of money. It would be far better to give the people employment on the roads and on housing schemes. There will be good security for the money expended. House property is the best security in any country and the Government need not be afraid to carry on with the housing schemes which were initiated by the late Deputy Murphy. There is work to be done there; plenty of houses are needed and the building of them will give employment.

We hear a lot of talk about attracting tourists to this country. If we want to attract tourists, we must have good roads. You could employ men on the roads all over the country for the next 20 years and even then you would not have proper roads.

When we were trying to get more money for the roads you voted against it.

That is only hearsay. The Minister for Social Welfarestopped the fuel scheme for old age pensioners. Did you agree to that? The old age pensioners were deprived of fuel for the summer and at the same time £30,000 could be spent on decorations for An Tóstal. I should like to hear the Deputy say something about that.

I should like to see every one of you getting up to speak. There is no use in one or two back benchers getting up. Let us hear what you all have to say and whether you all agree with the present policy of the Government. I do not believe you do. You know that the Budget is a bad one and that the position of the country at the present time is a very bad one owing to unemployment. It is your duty at Party meetings to tell the Government what should be done and what the people want, as the Opposition are doing. A good Opposition is a very healthy thing. You must have a good Opposition.

I agree with that.

We have not that in this House.

There must be some people with whom you do not agree. A good Opposition is wanted in every Parliament. You have been over there for 18 years and during the last two years you have disgraced yourselves. The last two years of Fianna Fáil administration, backed by the four Independents, has shaken the foundations of the State and put the people lower down than they ever were before. The people cannot to-day exist on the miserable few shillings they have. Talk about being rationed during the war period: the people are really rationed now because they have not the wherewithal to buy. Half one's money is taken out of one's pocket by way of taxation. The married man and his family are groaning under the cost of living. Yesterday sugar went up by ½d. per lb. Yet, we are told there is no increase in taxation and this is an "as-you-were" Budget. Probably to-morrow morning something else will have gone up in price. It is not the Minister who is solely responsible forthe position. The whole Government is responsible, and so are the people who sit behind the Minister. All the Deputies in the Government Benches represent the people. I do not know what they will say to the people when the by-elections come off. I do not know how Deputy Cogan will defend himself. We will have to wait and see, I suppose, and we will have to accept the decision, whatever way it goes. That is democracy. The Government met with a defeat in Dublin. It also met with a defeat in Limerick. Other Parties were defeated elsewhere. That is democracy. The people will have an opportunity shortly in Wicklow and East Cork. They will record on their ballot papers whether or not they approve of this year's Budget and last year's Budget.

One thing the inter-Party Government did was to bring peace to the country. We released the prisoners and we took the gun out of politics.

That scarcely arises on the Financial Motion before the House.

That is something Fianna Fáil cannot boast about. With regard to Coalitions or inter-Party Governments, representing the plain people as I do, living amongst them, mixing with them day in and day out and knowing their position, irrespective of what Government is in power I will be with them if they do the right thing for the people and, if they do not, I will be against them.

We are now entering the third week of the debate on this Budget and many of us who have listened to the last speaker and enjoyed his little bits of talent are not surprised that he is somewhat mixed and muddled remembering the position of the leaders of the Opposition, and when I say Opposition I can only refer to Fine Gael.

Because they are the people who hold the whip and they are the people who have dragged Deputy O'Leary and all the rest of them alongthe road they are travelling and led them off the straight path. When the Minister introduced his Budget the ex-Minister for Finance, Deputy McGilligan, came in here with a large brief. I am sure most of us expected to hear a speech lasting for some hours. Judging by all the speeches that have been made on the Opposition Benches most of the Opposition Deputies were apparently led away by the pronouncements made in the Irish Independentand theSunday Independentforecasting what would have to be done by the Minister when he introduced his Budget. Week in and week out, day in and day out we were told about the huge increases—the burdens as they were called—that would be placed on the shoulders of the people as a result of the Budget. Deputy McGilligan brings in a bundle of papers and puts them on the bench in front of him. When the Minister had finished his speech, Deputy McGilligan was so shocked because the bottom had fallen out of the case he intended to make, because the prophecies had not been fulfilled and because the speeches that had been made throughout the country failed in an attempt to incite the people into a state of rebellion over the huge increases that were foreshadowed, Deputy McGilligan spoke for about ten minutes.

That is all that is allowed.

He will speak again. That was a brief comment. Perhaps the Deputy does not understand the procedure.

I understand it pretty well. He had nothing to tell us.

He will later in this debate.

We waited, believing there was something up the Fine Gael sleeve. We waited for Deputy J.A. Costello. Deputy Costello spoke for about two and a quarter hours. He quoted piles and piles of figures. He made an effort to criticise the Budget, but never in my life didI hear a more ineffective speech or one showing less evidence of an attempt to make a genuine case. We might have forgiven him that, but he made a second effort. We heard him over the radio and over the radio he merely repeated word for word what he had said here. I compared his speech last year with the speech he made this year and if he had made a record of his speech last year, brought in a gramophone and put it on the bench in front of him he could have played off the record because the two speeches were identical.

It was the same Budget, if not something worse.

Deputy Costello said the Minister had budgeted for a surplus. He made the greatest lawyer's quibble of a speech that I have ever heard. We waited then to hear the wise-cracker of the Fine Gael Party and in due time Deputy Dillon got up. He tried to make a case; I do not know if anybody here understood exactly what he was talking about. He talked about everything in the world except this Budget or what this Budget contained. He found himself so badly stuck for something to say that he had to make a statement that I certainly resent, that every Deputy on this side of the House resents and that the people of this country as a whole resent—and if there is anybody with guts left in the Labour Party, the Clann na Talmhan Party or the Fine Gael Party they, too, will resent it—that the Fianna Fáil Party had called upon a certain Deputy from South Galway to resign from the Dáil.

It was published.

That statement was published by a political correspondent; the wife of the person referred to took the precaution of contradicting it, and Deputy Dillon knows it just as well as I do. If Opposition Deputies are reduced to this kind of tactics and if they are prepared to sit down and listen to Deputy Dillon indulging in that kind of tripe they have much less guts than I ever thought they had. The man he referred to has given service to this country for many, many years.

Hear, hear!

Deputy Dillon has a bit of vengeance against him, and against Eamon de Valera, because they are the people who took up the fight in 1916 and threw a certain Party out of politics in this country. He is trying to avenge that to-day and he will keep trying to avenge it until the day he dies. The one man he tries to smash altogether is Eamon de Valera, the man who put that Party out of politics in this country because they proved themselves to be anti-national at the time.

The Molly Maguires.

I listened to Deputy Giles the other night. Poor Deputy Giles tried to copy the speeches made by the different Deputies but they all made such contradictory speeches that poor Deputy Giles contradicted himself in every second sentence of his speech. Anybody who reads it will discover that. Deputy Giles told us that because of the Fianna Fáil policy the farmers in Meath had now to turn to tillage, that they had given the road to the bullock. I sincerely hope it is true but I am afraid it is not. We listened to-night to Deputy O'Leary who, I am sorry to say, has left the House. Deputy O'Leary told us how this country progressed under the Coalition Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. I do not think he ever bothered looking up the figures or he would not have made such a statement. Statistics prove that between 1950 and 1951 cattle under one year declined by 3,700; milch cows were down by 20,000; heifers and calves went down by 33,000; and pigs declined by 87,000. That was in 1950-51, the year when you would expect that the Coalition Minister would have put the live-stock industry of this country on its feet if there was any sincerity in his efforts and having regard to all the money he had been spending or had squandered, money obtained by borrowing and taken out of Marshall Aid funds.

Give us the 1947 figures.

Poultry declined by2,300,000 and tillage declined by 53,000 acres.

Of course, we did not hear Deputy Rooney's solution.

He will be speaking after me and let him examine the figures for agriculture and say then whether these figures are not correct.

Compare them with the 1947 figures.

I would also like to tell him that during the Coalition term of office 50,000 people left this country. They did that in spite of the fact that from the years 1948-51 £46,000,000 was available to Ireland under the Marshall Aid Plan. They must admit now if they are any way honest at all that that money was mishandled and misappropriated. During that period of office we sent them on a few good sprees. We sent Deputy Dillon to America, for what purpose I do not know.

Who sent you to Stras bourg?

Why were you sent to Strasbourg? However, you were a better representative than Deputy Cowan.

Deputy Cowan and Deputy Killilea have a national record and the Deputy on the Front Bench and the other Deputy who spoke have not a trace of one.

Deputy Killilea should address himself to the Financial Resolution.

It is not very easy to keep to your speech when you have interruptions from the type of individuals who intervened a moment ago.

On a point of order. May a Deputy refer to a person in the House as "a type of individual"?

We do not mind what Deputy Killilea does.

"A type of individual," you can infer anything from that.

That is the difficulty for the Chair, to decide what he means. The Chair cannot decide on that matter.

We would not mind Deputy Killilea.

Surely the Deputy cannot resent my saying that there are different types of individuals here.

We do not mind what the Deputy says.

I was about to say that we sent Deputy Dillon to America. I think there was a question asked to which the answer was given that it cost about £2,000 for his voyage; then, of course, he asked for a little cash to entertain his friends out there, and he was given something like £250. There was no resentment by any of the people in the Opposition Benches supporting the Coalition Government at this sort of squandermania. They can examine the accounts of the present Government to see if there have been any such "skites" as that. They did not resent Deputy Dillon going out on sprees of that kind. I wonder who authorised him and whether there was any Government decision about it when they let him off on a "skite" to lash out £5,000,000 in one afternoon. "The trouble was," he said, "that we could not spend it quickly enough." The idea was to lash it out while it was there because it would help to blind the people of this country so that they would push the Coalition back into office.

For some time past a few Deputies in this House have been blackguarded day and night. Every time there was an opportunity they were blackguarded and attacked because they believed that the squandermania policy should be halted, and they told the Government that. I think it is quite clear in everybody's mind that when that Government were put out of office, or at least when they went out of office —they were not put out; they were afraid to remain any longer——

They were put out.

Those Deputies madetheir position quite clear, because after their election, when they were returned to this House again, they did not adopt the attitude that Fine Gael think every Independent Deputy must support Fine Gael. They never can see that an Independent Deputy should be anything but a Fine Gael Independent or should back any Government but a Fine Gael Government. When these Deputies came back here, having gone before the electorate and having told the electorate that they were dissatisfied with the Coalition Government—anybody who read their speeches at the time will realise that they told the people what they were going to do, that they were not going to support the Coalition Government any longer——

The Deputy from Wicklow did not do that.

The Deputy from Wicklow told the people what he thought of Deputy Everett.

Quote his speeches.

I heard his speech in this House and I heard him tell Deputy Everett that Deputy Everett was not a fit individual to be a Minister because he was mismanaging the affairs of the Post Office. How often did he tell us that?

This has nothing to do with the Financial Resolutions.

I know it has not but if Deputy Everett wants to interrupt me I think I should be allowed to make it clear——

Read his speeches in Wicklow.

I know that Deputy Cogan was quite dissatisfied with the Coalition Government and he was one of the first members to say so in this House before the election.

He did not say that in Wicklow.

Deputy Everett was so full of his own importance at the timeand had got such a swelled head about his position——

Do not be personal. I can be personal too, if I wish.

I am not personal, but Deputy Everett knows that Deputy Cogan made his position quite clear in regard to the Baltinglass affair.

That is not the point. I say he never made any such statement as that he was against the inter-Party Government in Wicklow before the election.

What Deputy Cogan said in Wicklow does not arise on the Financial Resolution.

I never referred to what Deputy Cogan said in Wicklow. I have referred to the fact that certain Deputies rebelled against the Coalition Government as a result of the squandermania which that Government pursued, and I am entitled to refer to that. I am referring only to the speeches made in this House in my own presence and I know what they were. I even saw motions tabled about it.

We came in here after the election and we did not come in under any false pretences. We did not make any bargain with any of these Deputies. I do not believe they would make any bargain with us, as they got enough of the bargains they made before. What we did was to put forward a 17-point programme and we said to anybody who was prepared to stand behind us that we would pursue that policy. Those Deputies then saw that that was the only course to follow and they followed that course. Because they did that, an effort is made to-day to hound them out of political life.

Did you not rat on point 15?

There are no rats on this side.

We took up the responsibility of office after that election. Ithink the people of the country clearly realise now that we had a difficult task and that we had to face up to tremendous obligations, that burdens were left behind that would definitely mean an increase in taxation. The people who went out of office knew that and I think they were glad they went out of office because they had not made any effort to fulfil their promises. They knew they could not fulfil them, and that if they had to face another Budget there would be a stampede in this country and that they would be hounded out of political life, so they stepped out. We had to come in then and we had to undertake almost immediately the task of paying off some of the $128,000,000 to America. We had to start to see where the money was spent and whether it was spent wisely. We found that $77,000,000 was spent on wheat and corn which could have been grown here at home, if they had only continued the Fianna Fáil policy, a policy that was suitable to the Irish people.

Compulsory tillage.

A policy of tillage.

Compulsory tillage.

Deputy Rooney must refrain from interruption.

Compulsory tillage has been strongly condemned for all time by the Opposition. I never found anything radically wrong with compulsory tillage and I am a farmer myself. The vast majority of the people I represent never found anything wrong with compulsory tillage. An enormous number of them agreed with it and an enormous number of them are crying out for compulsory tillage still.

I shall tell you why. It is as well that people like you should be educated about the conditions that exist in the country. We had in my part of the country farmers, each owning 300 or 400 acres of land, employing only a man and a dog to herd their herds. At the same time we had living in the bogs and in thewaste lands all over the county men with valuations ranging from £2 to £10 who, during the emergency, paid these large farmers £12 and £15 per acre for conacre to allow them to do the tillage these large farmers were supposed to carry out under the Compulsory Tillage Order. That is the reason the small farmers are still crying out for the compulsory tillage. They are prepared to do the tillage if they get the chance. They are prepared to till the land for these landowners and even to pay them well for the land they get to carry out tillage.

For whose land?

If you are as stpuid as all that, there is no use in my trying to educate you. That wheat could be grown in this country when we could have saved the $35,000,000 that was borrowed to spend on tobacco. We had started a policy of tobacco-growing in this country but there was no encouragement from Deputy Dillon at any time for that, any more than there was encouragement from him at any time he was dealing with national problems. We had $4,000,000 spent on motor vehicles and $5,000,000 on newsprint. I do not think any of these items could ever be regarded as capital development or that any of these items on which that money was spent could not be financed by moneys that could be procured here at home. Now, because we face up to these things, because we have once again come back to a programme under which we are trying to produce in this country an enormous amount of the commodities that the Coalition Government purchased for dollars, the people on the Opposition side cannot see why we should not travel along the road they travelled.

Deputy Colley, I think, pointed out the other night the havoc that was created in Dublin by the destructive policy of the Coalition Government, when, on the cancellation of the order for the Constellation aeroplanes, 600 skilled men were put out of employment. There was nothing for them to do but take the high road. We did not hear any protest from the Labour Party at that time. We didnot hear any protest from Labour when the peat schemes all over this country were closed down overnight and when Labour and other Parties in this House knew that the closing down of these schemes overnight without the provision of alternative employment, meant that workers had no alternative but to take the high road. The Government in office had not made provision for those people and if they had to go on the dole the amount of money they would have got would not keep them alive. Deputy O'Leary did not protest and did not ask what arrangements had been made to give those people employment. The chassis factory started at the Broadstone was closed down overnight and machinery parts were sold without being taken out of their boxes. That factory was one of the most important industries so far as this country was concerned. It is an industry which would be very essential to us now more than ever having regard to the amount of mechanisation we have in relation to agriculture. Day by day parts are required for tractors and machinery which the farmers use. I am sure that hundreds of Irishmen could be employed producing those parts at home instead of having to import them. There were no protests from all those people when all those things were being done but now we hear a terrible outcry.

In his speech Deputy O'Leary said they had increased the number of people employed by the county councils. If doing what the Coalition Government did, reducing the road grants to county councils by over £1,000,000, means giving extra employment I do not know what county councils will start doing now. Deputy O'Leary seems to have been purchased body and soul by the Fine Gael people and he sees nothing now except through Fine Gael glasses.

Is it in order to suggest that a Deputy has been bought by a Party? The Deputy himself objected a few minutes ago. Now he said that a Deputy has been bought, has been purchased.

Anyone with a bit of sense knows what I mean.

The Deputy who is now asking that question made a suggestion that a number of Deputies were well paid for voting for the present Government.

It seems to the Chair to be a political charge.

When we took over from those people we had to face up to a big and difficult task. We had to make provision for further social services. I do not think anybody in this House can say we delayed long in doing that work. It was done almost immediately. We were not long in office and no election was pending at the time and no one can say that the almost immediate increase we gave in old age pensions was a sort of election bluff.

The Order was ready for you.

Will any Deputy on the Opposition show us any figure in any of the Estimates then prepared for the provision of increased social services by way of old age pensions, widows' pensions and any of the other social services that Fianna Fáil introduced and which are in operation at the moment? Not one halfpenny was made available. Deputy McGilligan is one man who had no intention of making it available. Most of us have listened to those people for a long time and our memories can go back to the 30th October, 1924, when we heard the famous statement that it was not the function of the Dáil to provide work and the sooner that was realised the better. That was a statement made by Deputy McGilligan then.

What is the quotation?

A leopard does not change his spots.

The Deputy will find it at column 562, Volume 9, of the Official Dáil Debates. I will give the Deputy the date. It is the 30th October, 1924.

Read the full statement.

I will read it if it willdo you any good, but I do not think it will. He stated:—

"There are certain limited funds at our disposal. People may have to die in this country and may have to die through starvation."

That is the man the Labour Party backed up—the individual the people who misrepresented themselves as being Republicans, put in as Minister for Finance.

That is what you are at now.

Their policy has never changed. That is one thing we must admire about Fine Gael. They changed the name of their Party several times but they never changed their tactics or their policy. They never for one moment became aware of the fact that there are poor people in this country who should be looked after. It was only when we took over that the question of children's allowances and widows' and orphans' pensions became effective; then they realised for the first time that there were poor people in this country who deserved some assistance.

All we hear now in every speech delivered by the Opposition is the price of the pint. I was amazed at Deputy Dillon when he referred to the price of the pint. I understand that the price of the pint is 1/2. I understand also that in certain publican's bars Deputies on the opposite side of the House know where the pint is 1/3. We never hear about that penny being reduced or taken off at all. We did not hear Deputy Dillon tell us whether he was prepared to take it off or not.

We did it before.

You took it off before and what did you do? You gave white flour to the wealthier sections of the community. You gave them plenty of tea at 6/- per lb. You put plenty of sugar on the table at 10d. per lb. You did all those things and you kept the poorer sections living on rationed food all that time.

Two ounces of butter, was it?

It was much more than that. You kept them living on a half pound of butter per week. That is what Deputy O'Leary was crying about. No wonder the condition was falling on them when the Coalition went out of office. The people were all happy and living on the luxury of half a pound of butter per week, two ounces of tea and a half pound of sugar. Why should the people have lamented the passing of that Government?

Two ounces of butter.

The Deputy should control himself.

It is impossible to hear what Deputy Killilea is saying on account of this barrage of ignorant interruptions.

That is the hall mark of a dirty crack.

I would not disgrace myself at Strasbourg.

You would not be sent to Strasbourg. They would try and get some more intelligent person. I was present in the House the other night at the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and saw the Labour people here standing over the policy of putting the increases in the case of postage stamps and telephone charges on the community in general instead of on the users of the telephones and those who have to stamp letters for business —they were anxious to put this on the poor individuals about whom Deputy O'Leary was crying five minutes ago. His policy was that the increases should fall on those who, as he said himself, are living on fresh air rather than on business people who use the telephone or on people like myself and others who have to buy a good many postage stamps. If that is Labour policy, then God help us. We are anxious to know where they stand in connection with it.

To show how little Fine Gael know about the conditions under which small farmers live, we had Deputy J. A. Costello telling us here a fortnight agothat Fianna Fáil were now making provision for the farmer with a £50 valuation, even though he was able to drive around in his Chrysler car. Of course, they have been denying that Deputy Costello said that.

It was denied.

I have here what was said. If the Deputy will take the trouble he can go to the Library and get a copy of the Dáil Debates for the 15th April last, and at column 58 he will find the words which were uttered by Deputy Costello.

There is no column 58.

I will hand the Deputy the volume when I am finished since he does not seem able to follow what I am saying. Here is what the exTaoiseach said:—

"The farmer with a valuation of £50 and a deposit receipt in the bank—"

I forgot to mention about the deposit receipt when I referred to this a minute ago.

—will be inside the provisions of the Bill, but the wage earner with over £600 a year, and that £600 is computed out of his own earnings and those of his sons and daughters, will be outside the provisions of the Bill. The farmer with a valuation of £50 can go in his Chrysler car to avail himself of the provisions of this Bill . . ."

If earning over £600.

"The farmer with a valuation of £50 can go in his Chrysler car to avail himself of the provisions of this Bill".

That is what Deputy Costello said.

When one reads a statement like that, one has to ask oneself how the poor Labour Party came to be gulled into the belief that Fine Gael had ever stood for a policy of social welfare. If we were to go back over the records, those dating back to the 1920's and 1930 period, we would find plenty to read in them as regards whatDeputy Norton and other leaders of the Labour Party thought of the Fine Gael Party. In view of what they said then, one would imagine that they would be ashamed to join up with Fine Gael or to have ever been associated with them.

They were not wrecking the country.

Deputy Rooney never had the guts to wreck anything in his life.

All this is irrelevant on the Financial Resolution.

We have had to face up to a lot of things, and what has annoyed the Opposition is the fact that at the moment we have brought about a position of stability. That is what is killing them, and that is why all the wild speeches are being made. They are annoyed that Fianna Fáil has brought about a position of stability, and they are making every effort to stampede the people of this country, but the people of this country are wise. It is rather funny, but it is true, that I have heard more talk about a by-election in Wicklow and about elections in general in this debate on the Budget than I have heard on the Budget itself. Most of those speeches have come from members of the Labour Party. If there was an election, whatever chance any of the Parties in this House would have of being on the winning side, one can say that the Labour Party would not have a hope in hell.

Are you offering two to one on that?

I think I could guarantee that whatever I offered I would not be asked to pay on your Party winning.

I do not bet.

The Minister for Finance last year faced up to the position that was there and brought in what was termed a most unpopular Budget.

Hear, hear!

That Budget was brought in by members of a Government who had their minds made up that they were going to face up to their responsibilities and take their stand on them. They faced up to the position with courage and determination in the same way as they did in 1932 when we took over the Government from the Fine Gael Party. We then started to build decent foundations for this State. The country was thus enabled to begin its onward march for the first time since we got what was termed our liberty here.

That was the time when the patriots of to-day were objecting to the removal of the Oath.

We carried the fight on all through the years since first we started in 1916. That has been our policy down to the present day. Our success in that fight has left Deputy Rooney in the position that he is able to take his seat in this House to-day.

The Rooneys were there, too.

If Deputy Rooney is trying to cast any reflection on any of the things that we did to bring about the freedom we enjoy to-day, I just want to say to him that we take pride in the fight and in the stand that we took all down through the years. I believe that the people of future generations will recognise that. They will recognise that we were responsible for the onward march that has been made in building up the country and in leaving it in the happy position in which we find ourselves to-day.

In conclusion, I want to say that I do not think there is any hope of a general election. It can only come about by the defeat of the Government, and that is a question that can only be decided by the members of this House. The Opposition are not anxious for it because they are not prepared, and would not be able to undertake the responsibility of a Government if confronted with that responsibility in the morning.

What about another midnight ride?

We have undertaken the responsibility of a Government and have carried on the work. We have, as I have said, brought about stability in the country. We have brought about what we hope is a standstill to a further increase in prices. We have brought about confidence and stability in Irish industry once again. Having made those things clear to the people, we can, with confidence, face them at any time we like. This challenge of an election, I would remind Deputies, was made by the Opposition away back in the days of the economic war. We called a general election in the middle of the economic war at a time when the Opposition least expected it. What was the answer the Irish people gave us?

A few moments ago the Deputy deprecated talking about elections. I suggest he should relate his remarks to the Financial Motion.

I am satisfied that the Irish people realise that Fianna Fáil brought about a position whereby they have stability and confidence in themselves so that they go about their day's work in their own way in the knowledge that they will get every encouragement, help and assistance from this Government. Let us hope that we will get a return for all the work we have been trying to do for them.

There are two corrections which I should like to make in relation to Deputy Killilea's speech. In the first place, he criticised Deputy McGilligan, who spoke immediately after the Minister for Finance introduced his Budget, because his speech was not as long as he expected it would be. Deputy Killilea must realise that Deputy McGilligan made that speech the moment the Minister sat down and it was just a résuméof the Minister's statement.

Deputy McGilligan had a pile of books in front of him.

My second correction is that in the name of this Party, theFine Gael Party, the word "Fine" has two syllables. Deputy Killilea said that last year's Budget was the most unpopular Budget ever introduced by an Irish Government. I agree with the Deputy there. We are told by the Government Deputies that this year's Budget is a "standstill Budget". I suggest that it is the second instalment of the serial story which began last year when the Minister introduced his penal taxes on the people of this country. The Budget this year is no less unpopular than that of last year.

Two years ago, when the Deputies opposite faced the country at a general election, they criticised the inter-Party Government for, they alleged, the high cost of living during their period of office. The Fianna Fáil Party asked for a chance to come back into power to set that position right. With the aid of a group of Independent Deputies, they got the opportunity for which they asked. What have they done since they achieved office? The cost of living has increased week by week and month by month until, a very short while ago, the Taoiseach admitted that we have reached our taxable limit. I agree that we have reached that stage if we have not long passed it.

Since the Budget was introduced 12 months ago, with all its penal taxes, various other forms of taxation were employed to draw money from the community at large. Apart from the removal of subsidies last July, increased motor taxation was imposed as from 1st January. I believe that that increased motor taxation drew something in the neighbourhood of £800,000 from the pockets of the people of this country. If that is not taxation, it is difficult to understand the policy of the Minister. Although motor taxation drew something in the neighbourhood of £800,000 from the pockets of the people of this country, it did not appear in last year's Budget, but I must admit that when the Minister was introducing his Budget last year he warned the people that they would have to bear it.

Despite the Taoiseach's statement that he believes that the people of thiscountry have reached their taxable limit, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs introduced proposals a few weeks ago to draw another £750,000 from the pockets of the people. I do not know what the Health Bill will cost—I do not think the Minister himself can put a figure on it—but it will be a large sum of money.

It is provided for.

Whatever it will cost, it will cost the ratepayers just as much. The rates of all the local authorities will have to be increased so as to provide an amount equivalent to that which is provided under the Health Bill. This year, the ratepayers of this country have had to meet drastic increases, and this further increase which will be imposed upon them can be described as another form of taxation. The same people will have to pay it. It may be placed under a different heading, but they will have to find the money in the end.

Another form of taxation introduced within the past 12 months is the high rate of interest offered to subscribers under the National Loan which the Minister floated. The Minister throws bouquets at himself and his Department because the loan was oversubscribed in a remarkably short space of time. If the Minister intends to float another loan and wants to beat his previous record then all he has to do is to offer, say, 6 per cent.——

Not necessarily.

It was not necessary to offer 5 per cent. for the loan last year. The urban district councils across the water can borrow money at a lower rate of interest than that. Three weeks after the last loan was floated by the Minister, Birmingham Corporation floated a loan at 4¼ per cent. and it was over-subscribed. The result of the high rate of interest which is repayable on our National Loan will be that our local authorities who have to borrow money from the Government for housing purposes will have to pay a greater rate of interest.

The local authorities are using thatborrowed money to build council houses. The taxpayers have to find a greater subsidy because the money borrowed to build the houses costs more. If the ratepayers do not meet that extra rate of interest, the rents of all labourers' cottages and council houses throughout the country must be increased.

The Deputy is overlooking the fact that the subsidisable limit has been considerably increased and that the net effect is that there will be no increase in the housing charges.

That is a recent change.

It is a change anyhow, and, so far as Dublin Corporation is concerned, it will be better off than it ever was.

I am speaking of local authorities throughout the country. Dublin Corporation borrow their own money.

Other local authorities are in the same position, approximately.

The Minister stated in his Budget statement, in defence of his own National Loan, when he offered 5 per cent., that the Dublin Corporation floated a loan at 5 per cent. They did. They had no alternative. What chance have they of having a loan subscribed at a lower rate of interest than 5 per cent., a few months after the Minister offered 5 per cent.? They had no alternative but to offer the same rate of interest.

The Government's financial policy has damaged industry and agriculture. The building trade in Dublin City, which is the only area for which I am qualified to speak, is practically at a standstill. The purchasers who require money to buy their houses are unable to pay the increased rate of interest for loans.

Then cut your profits.

The profits on building have never been too great. It is necessary for the Minister to help local authorities by providing money at alower rate of interest than is being granted under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts at the moment.

I suggest that the unemployment figures, which have increased greatly in the last two years and rapidly over the last 12 months, are attributable, in the main, to the building trade. Deputy Lynch. the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, said in his last statement here that there were more houses built during the last 12 months than ever before. I suggest that the Minister or some officer of his Department make inquiries from the building trade unions throughout the country. There were never more bricklayers, carpenters or plasterers idle than there are at the moment. Every Deputy has had representations made to him at various times to get employment in the building trade for some acquaintances or some friends of theirs and they are receiving the same answer all the time, that there is no work in the building trade in Dublin and district at present. It is at the lowest level that it ever reached. Deputy Lynch also stated in his speech that since Fianna Fáil took over office the second time 140 new industries have been started. I am not being critical when I ask him this question—where are they?

The Minister also said in his statement that he was going to implement the provisions of the Civil Service arbitration award. I think the Government should act like every other employer and that that award should be granted back to the time when negotiations started. It should be paid, not from the 1st April, but should go back to the time when negotiations started. The granting of this award will, I am sure, please civil servants in general, but there is a little drop of castor oil which they must swallow. There is that £3,500,000 to be saved on public administration—how is that going to be saved? Is it true that the various Departments of the Civil Service have already started to bring down the axe. Are minor civil servants quaking in their jobs, wondering when the axe is going to drop on them? I believe that is the position and there are very grave and serious whisperingsthroughout the city at the moment as to the position in that respect.

Unemployment figures have jumped within the last couple of years to the extent of over 20,000. Deputy Davern stated that there were three people coming back into this country for each one going out of it. He knows and everyone else knows that that is not true. Emigration is rising because unemployment is growing, because employment is dropping. It is very difficult for any man to get work of any description in the City of Dublin at present—or in the rest of the country, for that matter.

The statistics do not prove that.

I suggest to the Minister that he take some sort of gallup poll to find out. If he went on a "pub crawl" through the city he would find out how business is doing in the city and he would see how the licensed trade is doing.

I would not mind going on it with the Deputy.

I have seen the light— but that brings me to the tax on spirits. It was generally expected that the Minister would see his way to remove some of the tax which he imposed on spirits and alcohol last year. A year ago, he and his Department expected to get £1,020,000 extra in revenue from the tax on spirits. In actual fact, he received £500,000 less than was received a year before this tax was imposed. In other words, he received approximately £1,500,000 less than he expected to get—because there was a drop of 20 to 25 per cent. in the consumption of liquor. The Minister stated that a possible reason for that was that, in anticipation of the Budget 12 months ago, people in the licensed trade withdrew spirits from bond to forestall any increases that might occur. The Minister might look up the list of withdrawals from bond for the last three years and he will see that in any of those months there was no appreciable difference.

It is a fact that a major brewery in Dublin, because of the reduction in business in the licensed trade, hassufficient malting barley now for the next two years. How is that going to affect other people in the country— C.I.E. and other transport concerns, distributing people and the farmers? That is only one brewery. There is a certain gentleman I know, who, for 30 years, was in business as an agent, buying barley on commission. That commission has now been taken from him for the first time in 30 years. His services are no longer required. That may not, at first glance, look very serious, but let us look at the position of the licensed trade at the moment. A man needs to be ten years in employment in Jameson's Distillery in this city to be secure in his job. A number of their employees have got notice. A number have been let go already, but still others have now got notice. I suggest that the Minister contact the Commercial Travellers' Association from which he will get some true idea as to how business is in the country. A friend of mine went down to County Kerry to collect £400 which was due by several traders in that county. His expenses for the week—hotel expenses, car expenses and everything else—were in the neighbourhood of £30 and he collected a cheque for £25. That indicates the position in which business is at the moment.

What does Deputy Palmer say about that?

I do not think Deputy Palmer knows the commercial traveller. Deputy Killilea criticised individual Deputies' speeches but he failed to tell us why he supports all the increases in the cost of living. He said that 600 men lost employment through the sale of the Constellations. I made a rough calculation here and I find that, at £5 a week, it would mean £150,000 a year. I do not think the Minister for Industry and Commerce, when he contemplated the Constellations project, visualised that he would ever have 600 men employed on the Constellations end of our air services.

Apart from all the taxation we have had over the past 12 months which was not visible in the last Budget, otherexpenses have been put on the backs of the people—expenses in relation to air services, expenses in connection with the Health Bill and an increase in the price of sugar, which broke suddenly over the people of this city during the past few days. The only thing I can say is that the Minister, in relation to last year's Budget, appears to me to be like the person who tries to hit the jack-pot and, having failed, blames the machine.

This Budget must be regarded as a more severe blow to the community than the Budget last year, because last year there was not the degree of poverty which exists now, and at that time the people had not lost the good standard of living and the good conditions which had been brought to them by the inter-Party Government during their three and a half years' administration. In order to impose that savage Budget last year, the Minister alleged that the inter-Party Government had carried out a spending spree and, in order to counteract that spending spree, he apparently has embarked on a taxation ramp. We have only to examine what has happened since the tragic Budget of 1952 was introduced. We find stability, but stability of the wrong kind. Stability is what Deputy Killilea said the policy of this Government had brought about, but the stability, in fact, is stagnation, apart from the fact that it has caused a good deal of difficulty amongst different sections of the community.

The people were dazed by last year's Budget, and in this Budget they are again asked to shoulder these burdens. Last year, there was a considerable degree of opposition to it, because it was a fresh blow. The blow amounted to £19,000,000 last year—the amount of the extra burden the people were required to shoulder—but this year, in addition to the burden of £19,000,000 imposed last year, there are extra taxes in the form of increased motor taxation rates, extra charges for stamps and telephones, as well as increased charges for various commodities. When the Minister was framing this Budget, apparently hedid not take into consideration the notice to quit which the Fianna Fáil Government got from the Cabra area of North-West Dublin last November, in the by-election in which the Fianna Fáil policy was on test for the first time since these extra charges were imposed in the 1952 Budget.

The argument offered by Fianna Fáil in the months preceding November was that, in the by-elections of June, 1952, they did not get a severe reverse, but in fact the impact of the Budget had not become known until these increases became operative on 2nd July, 1952. In other words, the people were not given a proper opportunity of seeing exactly what the policy of the Government was going to impose upon them in the form of burdens. Reliefs were expected this year. The huge burden which the people were expected to carry last year seemed to be one which they would not be asked to carry again, and they expected reliefs, particularly in relation to the cost of living, but, instead of reliefs, they got a Budget which was described as the "same again," but which in fact is worse than last year's Budget for two reasons.

It is worse because the people now are less able to bear it and because they are not now in the good condition in which the inter-Party Government left them in 1951. It is obvious that the Minister's diagnosis of our economic needs is wrong, and he appears to be trying to apply the wrong cure, because we can see what the results of the past year were. We can see that 20,000 people lost their jobs since the Budget of 1952, and, although the Minister in his very fine oratory this year tried to console the minds of worried people, the fact is that this year he is imposing a greater burden upon them.

This is obviously a Butler Budget. It is the Budget which was introduced here last year when the Minister and the Minister for Industry and Commerce had returned from their visit to the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is obvious that he has imposed this Budget, believing that he will keep in line in relation to sterling with Britain, but we find that it wentin the wrong direction. We find that, in Britain, the Butler Budget had the effect of increasing the purchasing power of the £ and that, since the Budget was introduced here, a Budget which was supposed to be in line with the Butler Budget, the purchasing power of the £ has fallen by nearly 2/-. The cost of living has gone up by about 20 per cent. since the change of Government took place. Let us remember that the cost of living was the principal issue in the general election campaign of 1951, that is when the Fianna Fáil Party were sympathising with the housewives and complaining that the cost of living had gone up by 3 per cent. They made sure not to tell the people that the inter-Party Government had increased the earnings of our people by nearly 20 per cent. The incomes of all classes of people, workers, farmers, traders and every other class, had gone up by practically 20 per cent., and against that the cost of living had gone up by something like 3 per cent.

When the change of Government took place there was a complete departure on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party from the 17-point programme they had put before the people at that time. It was the ten-point programme of the inter-Party Government split into 17 parts which they put before the people as being the policy they would follow. There was an item, No. 15, in it which last year they decided to delete. That deletion increased the cost of living and increased the difficulties of our people. Point 15 was the one which said that they intended to maintain subsidies and control prices. They immediately removed price control in respect of many essential commodities. In 1951, shortly after the change of Government, many items of food were allowed to rise. In the 1952 Budget, subsidies in respect of bread, sugar, butter, tea and flour were slashed.

Last year's Budget increased the price of the loaf of bread by approximately 3d. This year's Budget proposes to maintain that increase of 3d. on the loaf. Butter was 2/10 per lb. when the inter-Party Government were leaving office. It was increased by last year'sBudget to 3/10. Now butter is selling at 4/2 a lb. That represents an increase of 4d. per lb. on butter as compared with last year's price and an increase of 1/4 per lb., as compared with the price when the inter-Party Government were in office.

Sugar is now up to 8/2 per stone. It was 5/4 per stone during the inter-Party régime. The price of tea is approximately 5/4 as compared with 2/8 during the inter-Party régime. The price of flour is up to 4/3 per stone, compared with 2/1 when the inter-Party Government were in office. The price of meat on the average has increased by over 9d. a lb., nearly 1/-. Cigarettes and tobacco were increased in price last year. The people are asked to continue to bear the increase then imposed upon them.

The taxes on beer and spirits were increased last year and this year the people are again asked to bear the increases on these commodities. Petrol users who had to carry an extra 4d. a gallon on petrol last year must continue to bear it this year. The price of stamps, which was increased towards the end of 1951 by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Childers——

That is very unfair because Deputy McGilligan indicated that these changes would take place. Do not hit below the belt.

Very well. I will let the Minister away with that.

You will have to.

The Minister for Finance indicated that it might be necessary——

That it would be necessary—I have his quotation.

——that it would be necessary to increase the postal charges but he did not indicate what the extra charges might be. However, when the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Childers, came into office, he increased the postage rate to 2½d. per letter and imposed other increases on parcels, newspapers and, of course, letters going to foreigncountries. There is a very steep increase now in respect of letters going outside this country besides the increase of ½d. per letter for letters addressed to places within the State.

That is a very heavy burden on the business community and it will have its effect. The increases will cause a reduction in employment in many business firms where there are heavy charges in respect of stamps and telephones. I heard of a colossal figure in respect of telephones and postage even in the Department of Social Welfare and there are also similar charges for other Departments. Telephone users had been asked to bear a very heavy increase and are threatened with a further increase in a couple of months. The extra charges have been indicated.

Coming to the bright side of the Budget we find that this Budget again relieves the ballroom proprietors of the duty to pay dance tax. Last year, dance tax which in the previous year amounted to £140,000 was remitted. That dance tax is remitted again this year. When the dance tax of £140,000 was remitted last year, a battle began between the dance bands and owners of ballrooms for the 20 per cent. relief represented thereby. The benefit did not go to the patrons of the dances. If they had been paying 5/- for admission to dances, which meant 4/-admission and 1/- tax, they are still paying 5/- while the ballroom owners and dance bands are fighting for that 1/-. The patrons did not get the benefit of the remission.

Another bright spot in this Budget is the reduction in the cinema tax in respect of the lower priced seats. I expect that when that becomes effective a battle will begin between picture renters and cinema owners for the amount of the remission which should be made available to the patrons of the cinemas. That has happened in the case of the dance tax and I expect it will happen in this case also.

Last year's very severe Budget, which put these extra charges on bread, tea, butter and sugar, included a present of £1,000,000 for the tobacco manufacturers. It was almost £1,000,000 that the tobacco manufacturers were to get as a reward for the loss of business which they might suffer in consequenceof the extra tax being put on tobacco and cigarettes. No allowance was made this year for this £1,000,000 present that was made to them last year. There was no reference in this Budget as to whether a similar present will be made to them this year or not. We should be told whether the tobacco manufacturers will get £1,000,000 again this year, just as they got £1,000,000 last year at the expense of the working people, the consumers of bread, butter and sugar.

Income-tax was increased last year by 1/-. Some people say it is well for the person who pays income-tax. It is a surprising fact that a very great number of people are now paying income-tax because the income level is so low in relation to the purchasing power of money. When the income-tax code was introduced nearly a century ago, it was introduced for quite a different purpose. It was never intended that income-tax should apply to people who depend from one week to another on a bare income. We find now, however, that many people are paying income-tax for which that code was never designed. We also find that the extra 1/- put on these people last year is to be carried again by them this year.

When Deputy McGilligan became Minister for Finance he reduced the rate of income-tax. Strangely enough, when he did reduce the rate of income-tax to be paid by the various classes of people who would be liable, the revenue from that tax increased by 50 per cent. That was evidence of the great prosperity which was brought to our people during the inter-Party régime. In consequence of the increased incomes, which I mentioned earlier amounted to 20 per cent., the amount paid in the form of income-tax rose by 50 per cent. although the rate of income-tax to be paid by the individual was reduced.

One outstanding statement made by the Minister for Finance in his Budget speech last year was that he proposed to restore order in the public finances. For many a day to come that phrase will be laughed at when we see what his last Budget did. First of all, in his effort to restore order in the publicfinances, 20,000 people lost their jobs. We find that credit restriction set in to such an extent that activity in business fell and that employment was reduced in consequence. We find that there was a trade recession. We find that all classes of business were affected in consequence of the burdens which the people were required to shoulder. We find that industrial production fell by 12½ per cent. All this was the consequence of "restoring order in the public finances". We find that 10,000 people who had been working in factories lost their jobs during that year. We find that all kinds of private building came to a standstill and that the only building carried on was the local authority building, which was well under way and had been planned by the inter-Party Government before the present Government took office, and which was being completed in the ordinary way. We find in the Minister's Budget statement that local authority building is nearing completion. That is the building which was planned and implemented by the inter-Party programme. We find, however, that there are approximately 40,000 houses still needed in the country and yet we have the Minister making the statement that the building of houses is nearing completion. We find that this effort to restore order in the public finances reduced the purchasing value of the £ by nearly 2/- or 10 per cent. We find that public houses are almost like morgues. We find the boss behind the counter instead of an assistant. We find that the people have switched from butter to margarine and that the production of Irish butter is falling. There we have the result of the restoration of order in public finances. We see the consequences of that Budget in those facts which cannot be contradicted.

That Budget also had the effect of reducing the standard of living, which was a natural consequence. People have been forced to switch over from creamery butter to margarine. Business is very slack in the drapery trade and there has been a fall in the number employed. Working-class people, in order to make ends meet, cannot afford to purchase articles asfrequently as they did in the past. That is one of the reasons why business in the drapery trade is so slack. Children's footwear has become very expensive, and many mothers are complaining that the expense of keeping footwear on their children has become almost impossible to bear.

Many working-class families in County Dublin who were put into new cottages during the inter-Party régime are now unable to pay the rents of these cottages; in other words, they are unable to make ends meet. These difficulties arose owing to the cost of essential foodstuffs. People had to buy food with the money rather than to save it up and pay the rent. When the arrears amounted to a high figure it was necessary for the local authority to take action, and these people now find themselves out on the road owing to the difficulties imposed upon them by the 1952 Budget which was heralded in the Irish Pressand by the Fianna Fáil supporters as a great achievement.

All over the country ratepayers have been forced to carry a greater burden in the form of rates. This burden has been imposed upon them because the liabilities of the hospitals had increased. The cost of foodstuffs for the hospitals has increased considerably, and the hospital bills are staggering at the moment. Anybody who is on a hospital board can see the remarkable effect which that Budget had in relation to the cost of food for the patients. In consequence of that, the rates had to be increased. Similarly, that Budget caused the wages of various classes of local authority employees to be increased in order to meet the increased cost of living and, in turn, the ratepayers have been asked to shoulder an extra burden. Children with healthy appetites demand a lot from their parents in order to keep them well fed. If the cost of school meals is not met by the children going to the schools, it has to be met by the ratepayers.

No matter who does, someone will have to pay for this Budget and the ratepayers are only one of the manysections which have been hit very hard. We are now feeling the pinch as a result of the burdens imposed upon this country by the scare speeches of midsummer, 1951. Those were the speeches which launched this unfortunate policy upon the nation. Those were the speeches which caused the recession in trade and the increase in the number of unemployed persons by approximately 46,000 as compared with 1951.

The Fianna Fáil Party tries to make the people believe that if an inter-Party Government or a Fine Gael Government was in office at the moment the position would be the same as it is now. I ask the people who advance that argument to read the figures of unemployment for the first five months of 1951. I would ask them to take each month then in the year 1950 and they will find that there were less people unemployed in each of the first five months in 1951 than there were in 1950. These figures show the general trend and the direction in which the inter-Party Government were then moving; it was moving towards the position in which we would be able to say that no able-bodied man was deprived of the right of earning his living in his own way. We succeeded in reducing the figures for unemployment to the lowest figure ever recorded in this country. In June, 1951, we had brought the figure down to 38,000 persons. At the moment, there are approximately 84,000 people unemployed and we are not too far from June. On the 13th of next month, we can see the number of persons unemployed on that date and compare that figure with the number of persons who were registered as unemployed in 1951.

Let me examine now the adverse trade balance. That is one of the many items upon which the Minister tried to confuse the public mind. By using the figures procurable in relation to the adverse trade balance he endeavoured to make people believe that the policy operated by Fianna Fáil at the moment is the right policy and the only policy that could have been implemented. We had the Taoiseach himself stating that the policy presently pursued by Fianna Fáil is theonly one for this country. Are we in a position to judge whether he is right or whether he is wrong? Could it be possible that he is making a mistake? We believe we could prove him wrong to-morrow were we given the opportunity. We proved him wrong in the Limerick by-election and in that election the Taoiseach in his convention speech said that the fate of the nation was at stake and the people went out and gave the Fianna Fáil Party a fine whacking. That was a reverse for his statement in Limerick. His recent statement in relation to general policy can equally be contradicted so soon as the people are given an opportunity of doing so.

Let me quote now some figures in relation to the adverse trade balance. The figure in 1947 was £30,000,000 and to offset that adverse trade balance the total value of our exports amounted to £38,000,000. What were the constituents of that £30,000,000 adverse trade balance in 1947? Anybody who casts his memory back will remember the huge quantities of textiles that were imported in the summer of 1947. He will remember, too, that at least 1,000,000 pairs of boots and shoes were imported in that year; there were enough shoes and boots imported to last the people for years. Similarly, in 1947, vast quantities of Dutch chocolate were imported. These were some of the constituent items of that £30,000,000 adverse trade balance.

If I went into more detail I could probably show that other unnecessary items were imported at that time. Let me quote now what the Minister for Finance, Deputy McGilligan, said in May, 1948, when he stated that it was:—

"... impossible to view with equanimity a continued reduction in external assets on last year's scale."

That was the £30,000,000 adverse trade balance in 1947 related to the £38,000,000 exports.

"These assets can be consumed now only at the expense of a reduced standard of living for the future."

We set out to redress that position.We set out to reduce the adverse trade balance and increase the national income. We succeeded in doing both. In 1948 we reduced the adverse trade balance to £20,000,000. It was £30,000,000 in 1947. We increased exports in 1948 to over £40,000,000. In 1949 we reduced the adverse trade balance to £10,000,000 and in that year we increased the value of our exports to nearly £70,000,000. In 1950 we were going well until the Korean War broke out in July. All the prospects in 1950 were that our adverse trade balance would have been nil had circumstances remained the same. The Korean War broke out and Fianna Fáil did its part at that time in creating a scare, hoping to frighten some of the weaker-minded into believing that Fianna Fáil could put up an umbrella to prevent bombs falling on us here.

I have quoted those figures to prove that we were operating a policy which, while reducing the adverse trade balance, was increasing the value of our exports. That was the happy position in which we were and that is the reason why our people were at that time enjoying a greater measure of prosperity and a higher standard of living. In 1950, events were shaping towards a position in which we would be able to say that we had a plus instead of a minus in relation to our adverse trade balance. But the cold war began. The Korean War broke out. We had scaremongering on the part of Fianna Fáil, asking that the Army personnel be increased immediately, telling us to get ready to defend the country because there was going to be an invasion. From Korea, probably ! The minds of the people were geared into the position in which they believed war was going to come upon us. Very wise business people at the time said: "We are not going to leave ourselves in the position we were in in 1939 and 1940 when war came and our shelves were empty; we will buy, wherever we can, the various commodities normally required in a civilised community." It was those items which were purchased at that time by the traders, packed upon their shelves and in their stores in anticipation of a complete stoppage when the war aboutwhich Fianna Fáil were so vocal in 1950 came upon us.

Let me deal now with 1951. In 1951 the adverse trade balance amounted to approximately £61,000,000. Examining the position, we find that the Fianna Fáil Party was in office for more than six months of that year. The present Government came into office on the 13th June, 1951. We will give them the benefit of the fortnight in June; in the last six months of 1951 the adverse trade balance amounted to £49,000,000. If we subtract that from the total of £61,000,000 for that year the inter-Party Government can only be blamed for an adverse trade balance of £12,000,000 which bears some comparison with the figure of £10,000,000 in 1949. Fianna Fáil allowed the position to get out of control at that time and last year they came in here with a Budget inflicting a very heavy burden on the people, stating that burden was necessary by reason of the unwieldy adverse trade balance in 1951, during more than half of which they were in office.

We find some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies quoting Deputy Dillon when he said that our difficulty during the inter-Party term of office was to spend money that was made available through Marshall Aid. They tried to make out that the money, in fact, was spent and that we were on a spending spree. They criticised Deputy Dillon because he said that the inter-Party Government could not spend money quickly enough. Surely it was true that they could not spend money quickly enough when they left £24,000,000 on the table for Deputy MacEntee when he came in on the 13th June, 1951? There was £24,000,000 unspent. Deputy Dillon mentioned earlier that he did not get a chance of spending that money and he was criticised because he mentioned it. If anybody ever went on a spending spree it was the Fianna Fáil Party, because between the 13th June, 1951, and the end of January, 1952, approximately eight months, they had dissipated and spent that £24,000,000. At least they say they had; there is a suspicion that that money is not spent yet. However,they say it is spent and we will take their word for it at the present. They did not dispute the fact that £24,000,000 of American money was there on the table when they came into office.

Is this Budget going to improve trade? The Minister said it is and I would like to know from the Minister how he can come to that conclusion when he has seen the results of the policy which was operated by him during the last 12 months. I had a quotation from the Minister—I have not got it now—pointing out that in consequence of the policy being operated we are going to have economic recovery and industrial activity.

I do not think we will have either because the Budget of this year is more severe than last year's. The figures themselves can prove it. When we have gone through a year of credit restriction, a year of mounting unemployment, a year of the falling pound, a year of a perturbed banking system and all those things that go with it, I cannot see how we are going to have a recovery. It sounds very well and it is a great relief for the supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party to hear those encouraging words. However, it is not encouraging words people want at the moment; it is relief and it is a policy that will bring to them the good standard of living that they enjoyed during the inter-Party Government term of office; it is a policy which will bring to them a week's wages and a week's work.

Many people at the present time are complaining that the present allowances which they receive from the unemployment exchange—unemployment benefit, unemployment assistance, widows' pensions, old age pensions and all those other allowances—are not sufficient to meet present-day liabilities and present-day requirements. When the inter-Party Government were drafting the social legislation in relation to the unemployment benefit of 50/- per week and the other benefits, it was thought at the time that 50/- a week would make things easy for a man who might be unfortunate enough to lose his employment, not to have a week's wages and a week's work. Tha 50/- to-day is not the 50/-theinter-Party Government were thinking of early in 1951.

I am sorry that Deputy Killilea is not here now. I would like to remind him that he voted against an increase in the old age pension on 2nd March, 1951. The Social Welfare Bill was being put through the House at that time and it was carried by four votes, but one of the many people who voted against the Bill, which included an increase for the old age pensioner, was Deputy Killilea.

On a point of order. That statement is not correct. The Social Welfare Bill did not contain any provision for an increase in old age pensions.

I am glad that Deputy Cogan interrupted because I understand that he is another of the Deputies who voted against the increase in the old age pensions. If it was not in the Bill it was in the Vote; it was certainly introduced as a Supplementary Bill. The question of an increase in the old age pension was in that Vote. Deputy Cowan voted for it and so did Deputy Browne. Of course Deputy Cogan voted against the increase for old age pensioners and he will have to answer to them.

A few of us had to put a pistol to the head of the Government to get the promise of an increase in old age pensions.

It may be all right to make a statement like that but it would be very difficult to prove it.

Why was the provision for old age pensioners not put in the Bill?

Because the cost of living had increased by 3 per cent. and it was necessary for us to increase allowances for old age pensioners. It has gone up by 20 per cent. since. That is one time when Fianna Fáil voted against an increase for old age pensions. They do not have to go back so far to remember that in the autumn of 1947 a motion was tabled in this House by Deputy Costello and Deputy Dr. O'Higgins asking for relief in themeans test which would amount to an increase of 2/6 per week for the old age pensioner.

The Deputy was not in the House then.

No, but I have read the records. The Minister for Social Welfare said that the country could not afford an extra 2/6 per week for the old age pensioners, and he was supported by the Fianna Fáil Party in opposing the motion for the increase of 2/6 a week in the old age pension.

Is that not what Deputy McGilligan said recently, that we are gone mad on the welfare State?

A Deputy

He said no such thing.

Deputy Rooney on the Financial Resolution.

The Fianna Fáil Party voted against an increase of 2/6 a week in the old age pension in the autumn of 1947. With the support of Deputy Cowan and others in 1948 we reversed that decision and we gave the old age pensioners an increase not of 2/6 a week but of 5/- a week. In addition to giving them that increase we reduced taxation by £6,000,000 by taking the penal taxes from beer, cigarettes and the other items on which taxes were imposed at that time. We left £6,000,000 back in the hands of our people to spend in their own way. Those people included 150,000 old age pensioners. We left the money with them so that they could spend it themselves in addition to the increase of 5/- a week which we gave them early in 1948.

This trade recession which has set in is artificial inasmuch as that it has been brought about by the Budget of 1952 which is being continued during the present year. We hear from commercial travellers, particularly, when business has dropped considerably. As I have said licensed premises are like morgues. While the Minister is going to keep the extra threepence on theloaf of bread and the extra 1/4 on the pound of butter, it might not be good politics for him to reduce the tax on spirits but it might be good economics. It might bring him more revenue than he got last year on spirits. The very heavy tax put on spirits last year caused a considerable fall in the revenue. Very probably if he took away the extra tax which was imposed on spirits, there would be an increase in the revenue. I think that economic rectitude, in which the Minister for Finance is so greatly interested, should compel him, in the interests of getting more revenue at a lower rate of tax, to take away the extra tax which he imposed on spirits last year.

The outlook for barley growers this year is very gloomy. We know that since the Fianna Fáil Party went back into office in 1951 they lost no opportunity in their efforts to reduce the price of barley. We found, when we took office in 1948, that the price of barley was controlled at 35/- per barrel while maltsters were importing barley at 85/- per barrel from the four corners of the earth. Deputy Dillon decided immediately to allow the barley growers to get the best price they could and to make the best bargain possible with the maltsters of this country, for all the malting barley they could grow. We had reached the stage when the maltsters were paying £4 4s. for barley to growers for suitable malting barley. We now find the position where these maltsters are not going to buy malting barley this year, because the barley which they bought last year has not been fully used in consequence of the very considerable drop in the consumption of spirits.

Along with their own Party, it has been obvious that Fianna Fáil has an organisation known as the Beet Growers' Association operating side by side with them. In fact, it was the Beet Growers' Association that negotiated the reduction in the price of barley with Messrs. Guinness early in 1952, in order to force farmers to grow wheat instead of barley. I am sure that other methods could have been utilised to encourage the growingof wheat other than the conspiracy which was entered into by the beet growers to bring about a reduction in the price of barley. We find a position now where the farmers this year will be lucky to get anything like £2 10s. or £3 per barrel for barley, compared with the price of £4 4s. when Deputy Dillon was in office. The agricultural conference, of course, was in progress in the Gresham Hotel with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture——

The Deputy is now going into points that might more suitably be raised on the Estimate for Agriculture.

Very well. I shall not raise them beyond mentioning that it was at the time that that conference was held that a reduction in the price of barley was being negotiated elsewhere. News is leaking out from Fianna Fáil Cumainn that the guaranteed price for wheat will be discarded next year. We should like to know from the Minister whether that is true. It is coming out from branch meetings and it is a matter in which the farmers are very interested.

But one which scarcely arises on the Financial Resolution.

Very well. It is a very important one so far as our agricultural economy is concerned. We found that one of the consequences of the Budget last year was that industrial production fell by 12½ per cent. Still we have heard the Minister say that the Budget he has introduced is going to stimulate industrial activity and economic recovery. The 1948 agreement, entered into by the inter-Party Government enabled our factories and factory workers to manufacture goods here and send them to Great Britain for sale in competition with goods manufactured in Great Britain. That was a great prospect for both workers and employers in industry and it is regrettable to see that already there is a decline, instead of an expansion, in industrial production. I should like to know what all this talk about industrial development and expansion means when wehave a drop of 12½ per cent. in the volume of production in twelve months.

We have in operation here a tariff policy which is not pursued in an orderly way. In fact, it is pursued in such a disorderly way that we are pricing ourselves out of the foreign markets, so far as manufactured goods are concerned, and at the same time our people are being required to pay through the nose for this tariff policy. The number of people engaged in industry has fallen by 10,000 in the last 12 months. Is it any wonder that industrial production has fallen by 12½ per cent. when we see 10,000 people formerly employed in factories, queueing up at labour exchanges? We had the position where, for every month of every year of the inter-Party régime, more people were going into factories and more factories were being built. During the three and a half years of the inter-Party Government approximately 200 new factories were completed and into those factories thousands of workers went. Since the change of Government several factories which were planned and under way before the change took place, have been completed. Some of them have skeleton staffs and some of them have not opened yet. Let us remember also that before the change of Government we had the highest number of people ever employed in industry. We had increased the number engaged in industry to 233,000 persons. When we came into office the number was approximately 180,000. In other words, we put into industry an extra 53,000 persons manufacturing goods, not alone for use in this country but for export to compete with manufactured goods of other countries.

We have now an unemployment figure of approximately 84,000 persons. Let us compare that figure with the 38,000 persons in 1951 before the change of Government. These figures show the difference between the policy of Fianna Fáil and the policy which was in operation by the inter-Party Government. A progressive reduction in the number of unemployed persons took place in each of the first five months of 1951 before the change of Government. Compared with 1950, therewere fewer people unemployed. When we look at the figure for unemployed persons in 1939, we can see that the Fianna Fáil Party are going back to the policy they had at that time. Official records show that there were 119,000 registered as unemployed in 1939. I suppose the Fianna Fáil Party will say that there are only 84,000 persons unemployed now, as compared with that figure in 1939, but I would prefer to see them comparing the figure with any figure they like to take during the years that the inter-Party Government was in office.

There has been a considerable drop in the number of tradesmen employed in this country, particularly in the building trade. Building has flopped in consequence of the mistake in offering a very high rate of interest for a national loan. Let us remember that that national loan last year, which was designed to purchase popularity for the Fianna Fáil Party, has done damage to this country which will take at least 25 years to repair. Let us remember that the day before that national loan and its interest were announced there were many people in comfortable circumstances in this country who had money invested in one security or another and they were living on the interest. They included unfortunate spinsters, unfortunate disabled persons and others who were not in a position to engage in active employment and were living on the incomes derived from their small capital. The interest they got amounted, in many cases, to 3 per cent., 3½ per cent. or even 4 per cent. The next thing was that the national loan was floated at 5 per cent.

What chance had those people of selling their shares and realising their capital which was yielding 3½ per cent. when the persons who might buy those shares could buy shares in the national loan and get a return of 5 per cent. and, in addition, their money back in the space of 20 years? This national loan has created a precedent and we must resign ourselves to the fact that we will be unable to outlive its consequences so far as the rate of interest is concerned.

Deputy Belton rightly mentioned that the corporation was forced to float a loan and give 5 per cent. as a small enticement in order to get money for the purpose of pursuing the city housing programme. The Minister for Finance mentioned that he intends to float another national loan this year and, even if he finds now that he made a mistake last year in offering 5 per cent. to persons who would invest in that national loan, he cannot this year decide to invite subscriptions to a national loan at 3, 3¾, 4 or even 4½ per cent. He will have to offer terms at least as good as the terms that were made last year. In order to purchase political popularity for his own Party he will have to do so.

Those who subscribe to that loan will get the advantage of it. Those who are unable to subscribe to it but who will be the guarantors, that is, the taxpayers, will be asked once more to shoulder a heavy burden in the form of taxation in order to pay the high rate of interest. Accordingly, it was a mistake, in my view, on the part of the Minister for Finance to make such a drastic change in the rate of interest for the loan last year.

Obviously the loan this year will be necessary if we are to pursue the policy of capital development in order that modern amenities can be provided for our people in various forms, such as electrification and various other services. The taxpayer will now be made liable for the payment of the high rate of interest in connection with this new national loan which, we hope, the Minister will be able again to say was over-subscribed even if, in the long run, it imposes an unnecessarily heavy burden.

Before the change of Government the cry was that the cost of living had gone up and they promised the people that they would bring about a reduction. When the inter-Party Government found it necessary to increase the price of butter from 2/8 per lb. to 2/10, people became hysterical. It was probably political hysterics. If they were hysterical over that increase, I would like to know their frame of mind now, when the price of butter has beenincreased by 1/4 to 4/2 per lb. The worst aspect of this is that they are required to pay 4/2 for New Zealand butter which can be sold at a profit to this country at 3/8 per lb. They are being asked, in other words, to pay a tax of 6d. per lb. on imported butter.

Let me at this stage remind the Minister for Agriculture of a statement he made towards the end of 1951, when he was feeling proud and feeling that he was going to settle everything. He stated that in February or March of 1953, people would not be eating one ounce of imported butter. What has happened? We now find that we are importing from New Zealand twice as much butter as ever and there is no prospect that the practice of importing butter will be ended.

That seems to be a matter for the Minister for Agriculture.

It is surprising they eat this butter.

I will refer in a general way to imported butter. Deputy Beegan has just mentioned that it is surprising the people will eat this foreign butter. The fact is that butter is not being eaten at the rate it was. If there is not as much imported butter eaten there is less Irish butter being eaten. The people of Dublin City and of Bray are to eat the imported butter whether they like it or not, while the remainder of the country will be given the advantage of the nice taste of fresh Irish creamery butter.

That matter does not arise.

I think it does, but I will not dispute it.

The Chair does not think so.

The Deputy dare not dispute the Chair's ruling.

I think it is most unfair to ask the people of Dublin City and Bray to eat the foreign butter and give Irish creamery butter to the remainder of the country. That is something the inter-Party Governmentwould not do. They did not discriminate between one section of the community and the other. I am now going to refer to a statement made by Deputy Killilea.

Switch off the light and go to sleep.

Deputy Killilea complained that we gave only eight ounces of butter per week at the rationed price. I reminded him that, when his Party was in power, they were giving the people only two ounces of butter per week at the rationed price. Then he went on to criticise us in connection with the eight ounces of butter per week because we arranged that over and above that people could purchase all the butter they wanted at 3/6 per lb. I would like to tell Deputy Killilea that they are not getting the eight ounces now at the rate of 2/8 a lb. They are getting the eight ounces and all the rest at 4/2 a lb.

I would like to know from the Minister whether he is arranging this year to give a present of £1,000,000 to the tobacco manufacturers as he did last year.

That was not so and the Deputy knows it well.

I am asking the Minister that because there is no mention of the £1,000,000 in the Budget this year. I should like to have an assurance from him that the people whose bread, sugar and butter has been increased in price are not going to be required this year to subscribe £1,000,000 as a present for the tobacco manufacturers.

That does not arise on the Financial Resolution.

I thought it did. I was drawing a comparison with what happened last year.

The House is not discussing last year's Budget.

I think I am entitled to make the comparison between this year's Budget and last year's. Thecomparison I wanted to make was that when the price of bread was increased last year by almost 3d. per loaf, and when the prices of flour and of tea were doubled, with an increase also in the price of sugar, it was indicated that the tobacco manufacturers were to get £1,000,000. The same prices will be in operation for these commodities this year, except that the price of butter and sugar have been further increased. In view of that, I suggest that there is an opportunity of making a reduction of £1,000,000 this year if the tobacco manufacturers are not going to get the present they got last year.

There is nothing in the Resolution before the House relating to tobacco.

I know that, and so we may take it that the Minister is not going to give the people this year the benefit of that £1,000,000 which he collected from them last year for the tobacco manufacturers. The only relief which the Minister gave in the Budget last year was to the ballroom proprietors under the heading of a dance tax. One of the few reliefs he has given in this year's Budget is some minor one to the cinema proprietors. I suppose we will see this year, as we saw last year between the dance bands and the ballroom proprietors, a fight between the cinema proprietors and the film renters as to how that particular relief will be applied.

The only other relief in this year's Budget relates to the partial award which has been grudgingly given by the Minister to the civil servants. It is to apply only from the period beginning 1st April. I suggest that no other employer would behave in that way. The civil servants are being deprived of the benefit of that award, which I suggest they are morally entitled to, for a period of approximately 21 weeks— that is from the date of the award to the 1st April. I was sorry to see Deputy Killilea laughing in a critical way at Deputy Dockrell when he mentioned this matter. Deputy Killilea would seem to agree with Deputy Corry and Deputy Flynn so far as their attitude to the civil servants is concerned.We know that Deputy Corry has described them as "drones." Apparently, that description seems to have a footing in the Fianna Fáil Party.

I hope the Minister will see his way to examine this matter and that he will do justice to the civil servants by following the practice of all other employers in cases where negotiations take place—that is by paying them for the period from the date of the award to the 1st April. That is a practice that is followed by all other classes of employers where negotiations take place. The Minister is holding the threat over the heads of thousands of temporary civil servants that, in consequences of the economy drive, he is going to put them out of employment. I do not believe that he is going to do that. We had a reply to a question recently relating to the number of civil servants employed by the State. That reply indicated that the number was barely sufficient to deal with the work that has to be done. That is the position certainly in some Departments that I have heard of myself. After all, the civil servants are human beings. They have families.

How did you find that out?

The Minister, apparently, has not found it out yet. I am trying to make him realise the fact that they have families. They have a certain standard of living to keep up. They have to meet their grocers' bills. They have to buy clothes as all other classes of people have to do. It is very unfair for the Fianna Fáil Party to impose burdens on all sections of the community, including the civil servants, and then for the Minister to say in his Budget statement that the various sections in the community have succeeded in securing compensation for the increase in the cost of living, while at the same time leaving out the civil servants from the general body of the people whom he regards as entitled to compensation to meet the increases. The result of that is that we find that people are now going back to a diet of tea, bread and margarinefrom which the inter-Party Government had lifted them. In our time, we had reached the stage where the workers were able to have bacon and eggs on their table in the mornings instead of a diet of tea, bread and margarine. We started off by putting an end to the racket in bacon and pigs which had existed up to the time of our coming into office.

By doing away with the pigs.

It is obvious that Deputy MacCarthy is not familiar with the line of national economy here since 1951. He should be aware that there was a great scarcity of pigs in 1947. I wonder would he tell us how many of the housewives in Cork were able to get bacon in 1947?

When you were finished with it, they had not much to get.

I should like an explanation from the Deputy on that matter.

Deputy Rooney might now relate his remarks to the Financial Motion.

We brought about a position where the workers were able to have bacon and eggs on their table. The Fianna Fáil Party has brought about a position whereby the workers are back again to the tea, bread and margarine or to the synthetic butter. Under the inter-Party Government we reached a stage where we were able to export both butter and bacon. We reached that stage by 1950.

When the inter-Party Government came into office the number of live stock in the country was the lowest recorded for 100 years. By the time the inter-Party Government left office the number of live stock in this country had reached the highest figure ever recorded in our history. Further, we had brought the value of our exports to the highest figure ever achieved. The value of our agricultural exports at the present time is due to the great work done by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture. He isresponsible for bringing up agricultural production to its present level. The Minister has indicated that it is slightly more now than the highest figure reached before the war—and it is going to go higher. That is the result of the very fine agricultural policy embarked upon by Deputy Dillon.

You reduced the number of cows. How you can produce cattle without cows is a mystery to me.

Deputy Cogan cannot controvert the fact that there were never more cattle, sheep and pigs in this country than when the inter-Party Government were leaving office.

80,000 fewer cows.

Count the cattle. Cows are included in "cattle". If there were fewer cows in 1951, then there are even fewer again at the present time. Deputy Cogan is not using his influence in the Government to do anything about it. In fact, he did not bother when there were 140 farmers in Mountjoy Jail recently.

What has this got to do with the Budget?

I have a suspicion as to how they got there.

Deputy Cogan will have to explain that at the by-election in Wicklow very soon.

I will. There is a very good explanation.

I heard Deputy Killilea mention mechanisation in connection with farming. There, again, is evidence of the policy pursued by Deputy Dillon during his term of office as Minister for Agriculture.

We know what the Deputy wants to do. He wants to talk it out. Better let Deputy Palmer in now, or Deputy Everett, who is champing at the bit.

I will get in to-morrow, please God. The Minister is notalways so very sympathetic in his consideration for Deputy Everett.

If ever any mechanisation in connection with farming took place in this country surely that happened during Deputy Dillon's time. He recommended the use of tractors. He pointed out that a tractor was able to do more in a day than six horses.

What has that to do with the Financial Motion?

It is general policy.

No, it is not. The Deputy is quite mistaken.

We are dealing with financial policy.

Very well.

Turn the pages over again, Deputy. You are now back where you started. I think, Sir, that we had better call a count.

The Minister is only helping him now.

He is not helping me at all. I want to say, in conclusion— maybe the Minister wants an end to it; he does not like to hear the facts— that the inter-Party Government brought the country a long way towards an improved standard of living. The policy now being pursued, instead of bringing the country forward, is putting the country back to the position in which we found it in 1947. If the Minister thinks that the country ought to be brought back to the position in which it was in 1947, then let us hear from him in that respect, but I do not think there are many Deputies who will agree with that point of view.

In 1948, when the inter-Party Government took office, we found a position in which a county council had to get a licence from the Government in order to build a county council house.

The Deputy is travelling wide of theFinancial Motion when he deals with licences to build cottages.

But surely it is very interesting.

Then, on what debate, Sir, would I be allowed to mention that interesting fact?

It is not the function of the Chair to tell the Deputy that.

The inter-Party Government embarked on a housing programme which only came under way towards the end of 1948: we were unable to get into gear any sooner. We vigorously pursued the programme of providing houses for our people. Our housing policy continued even after the change of Government. The present Minister for Local Government was very busy opening housing schemes that were planned, started and completed in consequence of the inter-Party Government's policy. Similarly, the present Minister for Industry and Commerce has been kept busy turning the keys of many new factories which were planned and started by the inter-Party Government. I may say that these factories would have been packed to capacity with staff if the inter-Party Government had remained in office— instead of having the position that we have to-day in which many of these factories have just skeleton staffs.

And the ones that were there were empty!

Deputy Rooney has a great sense of humour; I will say that for him.

These people did not expect that to happen. I know quite a number of decent manufacturers who would not be allowed by the present Government to go into business. I can mention one man who sent his son to Denmark in order to study the sweet and fat trade. He bought thousands of pounds' worth of machinery which is still in wrappings because he will not be given permission by theMinister for Industry and Commerce to set up a sweet factory and go into the trade.

This is administration.

That does not arise on the Financial Motion.

The Deputy can raise that on the Vote for whatever Department it relates to.

In that case I will conclude and, on another occasion, I will go into more detail. Apparently I am not allowed to go into detail on this matter now.

We heard to-night from the Minister's supporters that last year's Budget was the most unpopular Budget ever introduced in this House. Why was it unpopular? It was unpopular because it created unemployment. It was unpopular because it created hardship to the business community, and it was unpopular because it created a depression from which we have not yet recovered. Last year the Minister put his hand very deeply into the taxpayer's pocket. But his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, was not satisfied that the Minister should get all the credit. He came along immediately after the Minister for Finance and put his hand into the taxpayer's other pocket. He said that there was something there, too, and that he would increase the taxation in respect of motor-lorries and motor-cars. Then the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs came along and said that there was yet another pocket.

You found that pocket in 1951.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Childers, looked for £750,000. After all that, the Taoiseach came along and said that the taxpayers' pockets are empty and that taxes cannot be further increased because we have reached the limit of our taxable capacity. Despite that,the Minister for Industry and Commerce informed us to-day of a new tax which will affect the poor of this country in particular. He announced an increase of ½d. per lb. in the price of sugar. That will bring in further revenue to the Government.

It does not bring in any revenue.

Perhaps the Minister can explain the matter. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 20th May, 1953.
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