That is not what happens. Supposing a person breaks a rule, are you going to ignore it or are you going to deal with it? I know some countries where they have very strict rules, very advanced socialist countries. I think they have very strict rules in Russia and they enforce them very strictly. I think that if we are to have an ordered society there must be some enforcement of rules, whether the rules of trade unions, the rules of a bar association or the rules of a political Party, and these are generally carried out.
One thing that Deputy Dr. Browne is very keen about and I am very keen about—Deputy Dr. Browne was the man who examined this and took objection to this section and put down an amendment—is that we want to see as far as the ordinary old people in county homes are concerned that they are not to be dealt with in any tyrannical manner, that as far as unmarried mothers are concerned they are not to be dealt with on any basis of tyranny,but that as far as other people in the county homes are concerned, they cannot be permitted just to make a shambles of the place if they want to. I do not think there is anything unreasonable in that. Having heard the arguments advanced, I think the Minister will produce an amendment which will receive the support of this House. The Minister stated that any rules that will be made under this section when it is amended will be submitted for the approval of this House; in other words, the amendment will be extended to that extent.
If we are to have a system of anarchy, very well. In our secondary schools it would be grand if there were no rules or authority, but there have to be rules and authority in secondary schools. There have to be rules and authority in primary schools. In the different trade unions and organisations to which we belong there must be some rules.
The vital thing I see in this section is that a man who requires shelter and is unable to provide it for himself must get the shelter. Therefore, the local authority must provide the shelter. With regard to the other institutions mentioned by Deputy Larkin, the Back Lane institution and different voluntary institutions, if a person acts in an offensive or objectionable way he is simply put outside the door and that is their discipline. Under this section the local authority is bound to provide shelter for a person who is unable to provide it for himself. I do not think it is unreasonable to say that we must obey certain rules. For instance, if the rules say that breakfast will be from 9 to 10 o'clock, I do not think anyone would agree that a person should be able to demand it at 11.30. Some of us might like to do that, but we find that even our wives enforce a pretty stiff discipline upon us. The same thing applies to the other meal hours.
The one thing I want to see is that there is no question of interference with the human dignity of an individual, and there is no interference with the human dignity of an individual if he subjects himself to reasonable rules approved of by the Parliament of this country in the year 1953. DeputyMacBride may find that there is something unreasonable in the rules of his own profession of law. But the rules are there and he accepts them. He does not find that they are as bad as might be imagined in theory. Deputy Larkin is in the same position in regard to members of trade unions who, in the general interest, have to submit to certain rules for the organisation and control of trade unions. The same thing applies to individuals who go to the university or to secondary or primary schools.
If the argument is for anarchy, let us say so. But if what Deputy Dr. Browne is attempting is to prevent any humiliation of individuals, then I think we can ensure that by agreeing to allow the Minister to consider the matter on the basis he has indicated, having heard the arguments from all sides of the House. If we want to get a good section which will help us to provide that, then we ought to agree to let the Minister have his second attempt at it.
It is very funny that the argument should have developed in the way it has developed on the part of people who are supporting the Bill, the Labour Party, the Independents and the Fianna Fáil Party. They are supporting the Bill and yet this argument has arisen. I saw no sign of impatience on the part of the Minister and I see no necessity for the type of threat made—that the Bill will be held up. Fine Gael have been doing very well in holding it up for some weeks.