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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1953

Vol. 142 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Valuation Bill, 1953—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Last week, I listened to a contribution by Deputy Rooney on this Valuation Bill. Listening to him speak, one would think that this Bill sets out to remedy all the injustices and right all the grievances that exist in regard to valuation. It does no such thing. It sets out to remedy the position so far as business premises and farm buildings are concerned.

During last week's debate I heard Deputy Byrne plead for the owners of business premises in the City of Dublin. He said that business people in the city were afraid to carry out repairs because they feared their valuations would be increased. He seemed to indicate that the business community in Dublin were on the vergeof bankruptcy, forgetting that a few years ago the cry from the Opposition Benches was that the business people were highway robbers and should be behind locked doors.

The Deputy should qualify that.

Even if I were an Independent Deputy, I would vote against this Bill for the one important reason that it does nothing to relieve rates on cottages occupied by farm labourers and other classes of labourers. Labourers' cottages do not benefit under this Bill. That is a serious omission. To my mind it is one which renders the Bill such that the majority in this House cannot see their way to support it.

I know that the rates on labourers' cottages constitute a heavy addition to the weekly rent. I have in mind proposed schemes for labourers' cottages in County Donegal where the prospective tenants are now asked to agree to pay rates to the tune of 3/6 per week in addition to a weekly rent of 6/6. What is the point in giving concessions in respect of other buildings when we neglect to reduce the rates on labourers' cottages? These cottages are occupied by one of the most important sections of our community, the farm labourer and the labourer in houses built by the county council. Three and sixpence per week in rates on an already high rent is, I think, loading the dice very heavily against the agricultural worker and the manual worker in other occupations. For that reason I am very strongly opposed to this measure.

The second objection I have to the Bill is that while it proposes amendments it does not affect premises which have been revalued in the past or premises in respect of which a revision of valuations took place. Actually, it preserves the status quoin respect of those. In my constituency we have the Buncrana revision of valuations, thestatus quoof which I for one do not want to see preserved. If this Bill became law the Buncrana revision of valuations which took place there would not be affected. Thepeople would be left to suffer as they are.

I just want to explain what took place there. Two or three years the urban council sought for and was granted a 100 per cent. revision of valuations. They hoped that many valuations which might be too small and others which might be excessive would be evened up. A 100 per cent. revision took place, with the result that the total valuation of the town jumped from £7,000 to £11,000. I do not want to see that position being made permanent in any valuation legislation which passes through this House.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is the Deputy aware that if this Bill became law that could not happen?

I am not talking about what could happen. It has happened.

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Deputy supported this Bill it could not happen.

After a certain period it could happen.

Mr. O'Higgins

It does not happen at all. Section 2 provides they cannot be increased.

In this particular case a grievous injustice has been done. We are, by other means, asking to have that remedied. That is why any measure which makes permanent an injustice does not get my support. This measure is very limited in its scope. I admit that there are injustices in the valuation code, but this Bill does not cater for the people who are suffering most under these injustices. For that reason, I am opposed to it.

Some years ago we had a very elaborate committee set up to consider the question of derating. That committee reported that the chief problem left for consideration was this: Suppose derating is removed entirely, who is going to provide the money which the rates formerly provided?

This measure is more or less in the same category. Suppose that the valuationof premises that are repaired is reduced, then the rates will be reduced, and if money is required, as I am sure it will be, who is going to provide it? Are there to be extra charges on the taxpayer? To my mind, this Bill is political nonsense or political deception because, as I have said, if the money is required it must be met and must come from some source. I do not suppose that you can revalue land, but, of course, we can revalue houses. But suppose we did revalue land, what difference would it make? Is it not all a question of the means we adopt to collect rates? If the rates are reduced, there will be no means of collecting what is required from income-tax.

There is no doubt that Griffith's valuation is very much out of date at present, perhaps not so much in the towns. Revaluation is quite a big problem, and would cost quite a lot of money. Griffith's valuation was a grain valuation. It was a bit more than that. The landlords at that time were beginning to feel the pinch. Quite a few of them were able to get in touch with Griffith—he had a big connection —in order that they might be able to borrow more money, and so they got the poor law valuation of land increased. The borrowing of money on land is, to a large extent, controlled by the poor law valuation. Some of these lands which were valued very highly have deteriorated to a large extent. That is so in the County Clare, and, of course, that land is not equal to such a valuation now. The result is that the people who are now paying on that valuation are in debt.

I believe myself that if improvements are made to a residence, or to a business house, these should be subject to an increased rate. I do not believe myself that business people are going to improve their premises without having a fair idea that it will mean an improvement in their business. Therefore, they are being asked to pay on the improvements they carry out. What puzzles me is who is going to put up the money if the rates are reduced. Is the income-tax to be increased?The money will have to be got from some source. It strikes me that there is nothing in this Bill. It is just a piece of nonsense, due to the fact that money has been greatly inflated. The pound is the pound anyway. These premises are worth a lot more pounds to-day than they were worth ten or 20 years ago. If the owners have to pay, they are just paying in inflated money values. I see nothing at all in this principle. In the County Meath, for example, we have a big number of labourers' cottages.

And a big number of big fellows.

Quite so. The occupiers of the labourers' cottages get no relief under this Bill. We have quite a big number of them, and they quite possibly would have to contribute more in rates under this Bill than the owners of some business premises in our larger towns. I think that the effect of this Bill would, to a large extent, be unfair to the community generally. It would mean giving a good deal of preference to certain sections of the community, but the point is that the poorer sections would have to pay more in rates, although they are the people who are entitled to most relief.

Could not an amendment be inserted to cover that aspect of the Bill?

That is possible, but there should be no necessity for an amendment. The Bill should cover all sections if it is intended to do any good. My idea is that what it proposes is to change money from one pocket to another, and that, I suggest, is deception.

It strikes me as rather strange that, if there is a necessity for a Bill of this kind to-day, the same necessity was not there a few years ago. Why, therefore, did the Fine Gael Party when it had the power and a majority not introduce this Bill then? I think we are all agreed that thelargest ratepayers at the moment are the working people who have gone into occupation of new houses. Their valuations are based on modern conditions in life. I think that any Bill of this kind should have the interests of the workers at heart and should strive to give them relief. That is not being done. Those people are paying on very high valuations in proportion to the amount of property they own. Perhaps I should not say own, because really they are only tenants. They scarcely have the right of succession in their homes. I think everyone will agree that, to-day, the valuation of workers' houses in this country is very high in proportion to what they own.

Perhaps somebody would say that a general revaluation of the country would be the fairest thing to do. I am inclined to agree with that. On the one hand we have advocates claiming that the ratepayers pay very little and on the other hand we have the smaller types of houses annually valued at rather a substantial rate. We heard Dublin Deputies, in particular, telling us about the high valuations in Dublin. They forgot to tell us of the high volume of business being done in Dublin. It is only natural to expect that if the Valuation Commissioners find a large volume of business they will increase that valuation when their attention is drawn to it. I know full well that there are many people in this country getting under the wire, so to speak. I would much prefer to see a Bill in this House which would have for its purpose some intention of meeting and remedying the situation that arises in many parts of Ireland, in city and country alike. I know that people who are industrious and who try perhaps for the sake of better business and for the sake of improving their premises are what you might call penalised. However, we hope that in the very near future a Bill will be introduced which will help to discontinue a situation which is very much out of place and in which people are penalised for spending money on their premises although they are incidentally beautifying our cities and towns. They are helping to put us on the map by assisting us to show, especially toforeigners who come into this country, that we have and can have beautiful cities and beautiful towns that can compare favourably with those in any other country.

On a point of order. Is the Deputy supposed to make himself heard on this side of the House? You know he has a beautiful baritone voice and I cannot hear him.

Go down to the Front Bench where you usually sit.

It is no use his hearing anything; it would not sink in.

There is a very old saying that there are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear, and perhaps Deputy Davin belongs to that category to-night.

I would like to listen to you.

When I speak too loudly, I am accused by Deputy Davin of bothering him, so I am trying by a better type of elocution to fill his poor empty belfry with very good ideas regarding valuation in this country. As I said, it might be better to have a revaluation of the country and even then I think it would be right to say that there should not be any such thing as penalising people by increasing their valuations because they were prepared to invest money in their business.

That applies in particular to the licensed trade because not alone are the rates increased but, unfortunately, in addition, their licence duty is increased very substantially. Where there is £1 of an increase in valuation on a licensed house, the licence duty increases by 50 per cent. Therefore you will see that the people who have most reason to grumble in regard to valuations are the licensed traders. They have a double grievance if their valuation is increased.

If we are going to have an alteration of valuation and a comprehensive survey, I would think it should be done after very full consideration and study of the conditions obtaining in the country. Any Bill of its kind should also legislate for a reduction in valuationwhere a reduction is found necessary. I feel that certainly applies in the case of labourers' cottages. If we were to have general revaluation, I feel that many of the workers' houses should be considered for reductions in valuation.

The Government has promised—and I think I can speak with sufficient authority on this—that a Bill will be introduced in a very short time which will meet a long-felt want. We are going to have a two-thirds remission of rates for seven years. I believe that is the type of Bill this House should welcome and I do not see any great reason for panic legislation. If we had to carry on for many years under the present code there is no reason why another month or two would cause us great heartburn. The question of valuation is a very ticklish one which must be handled very carefully so that all sections of the community will be dealt with fairly. The remission of rates for seven years will not alone be fair to the people who will benefit but will also be of immense value to entice moneyed people to improve their business premises. Let us hope that it will increase their business when they have the courage to invest money in it and give good employment by so doing.

The principal objection to this Bill is that it does not in any way help those who are labouring under grievances—people who may have neglected in the past to appeal against the valuation of the Valuation Commissioners, people who for one reason or another found they were not financially in a position to go into court and fight the Valuation Commissioners there. It gives them no redress whatsoever. I believe that any Bill of this kind should have that as one of the very particular things in it. People of that kind with a grievance look forward always to obtaining redress some day. This Bill gives them no scope for any redress.

Needless to say, everybody whose valuation is increased will say they have been harshly dealt with. I can appreciate that. I know the law is there for them, but very often it isnot possible for them to take advantage of it. They may come to the conclusion that after spending money in law they are back to where they started. In addition to having to pay a higher rate, they will have a higher bill to pay to solicitor or counsel if brought into court.

We all feel that the valuations in the country need to be reconsidered. The valuation of land cannot be touched—and it is a very good thing that it cannot. I suppose it is only right to reconsider it where people by reconstruction or by building new houses are obtaining large volumes of business as a result of their enterprise. On the one hand they suffer but on the other hand they gain. As I said this evening on another Bill, what they lose on the swings they make up on the roundabouts. We must agree that the question of valuations in general must be the concern of every Government. It is very unpopular for any Government to have a general revaluation of the country. That was proposed some years ago and if it had been carried out there would have been less grumbling about valuation than there is to day, and we would have many more people taking advantage of reconstruction grants, building grants and loans. At present, they are to a great extent afraid to carry out improvements, because of the danger of revision of the valuation of premises, farmhouses or homes.

We know the rates are not what they used to be 40 or 50 years ago. We know that every £ of valuation means a substantial reduction in the net income of the people concerned. There is hardly anyone optimistic enough to think that there will be any great reduction in rates in the future. The tendency all over the country, with the high cost of roads, water supplies and other things, is for the rates to continue to soar. People are not content now as they were 40 years ago to bring water three or four miles in an old can or go to a well a mile and a half away, perhaps through a few fields. The tendency is to seek more regional water supplies, other amenities of life, better roads and so on.All these things mean higher rates, and in their own way they have a serious connection with the valuation of the places concerned. When the rates were low—I myself remember when they were 5/- or 6/- in the £— valuations were not the great concern they are to-day. Now, as the rate gets higher so also greater becomes the concern of people with high valuations.

Some Dublin Deputies talked about the high valuations in Dublin. The people of Dublin have not much to grumble about, so far as the amenities of life are concerned. In the rural areas, people on substantially high valuations are denied the amenities of life enjoyed by our people in the cities and towns.

Mr. O'Higgins

What has all this to do with valuation?

I take it that the cost of local services has a bearing on it.

Mr. O'Higgins

I can see nothing relevant to the Valuation Bill before the House in the monologue to which the House is being treated by the Deputy.

That is a matter for the Chair.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is why I am pointing out that it is a matter for the Chair.

And I am pointing out that Deputy Davern is relevant.

Now, that Deputy O'Higgins's impertinence——

Mr. O'Higgins

Is that in order? Is it in order for the Deputy to refer to my point of order as an impertinence?

The Deputy is entitled to refer to it.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is it in order for the Deputy to refer to my point of order as an impertinence?

I do not think he was referring to the point of order.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am drawing your attention to the fact that he has referred to a point of order raised by me as an impertinence.

So far as the Chair is aware, Deputy Davern was referring to the Deputy's statement.

Mr. O'Higgins

I may take it, then, Sir, that the reference is withdrawn.

I have not ruled the reference out of order. I am informing the Deputy that in my opinion it is not out of order.

Mr. O'Higgins

You are ruling then, Sir, that it is in order to refer to a point of order raised here as an impertinence.

I have ruled nothing of the kind.

Mr. O'Higgins

I would like to know what you have ruled.

I have ruled that Deputy Davern is in order. Deputy Davern on the Bill.

What I did say was that I considered it a grave impertinence on the part of Deputy O'Higgins to challenge your ruling and attempt to dictate——

Mr. O'Higgins

Am I to be protected now, Sir?

——as to what we should or should not do.

On a point of order. Deputy O'Higgins did not challenge your ruling. He asked you to give a ruling. He did not challenge it one way or the other.

Mr. O'Higgins

Surely the Chair will take some notice of this.

The Chair has already taken notice and I have asked Deputy Davern to continue.

Mr. O'Higgins

Along the lines on which he was proceeding?

Now, I think it is very hard to have patience with Deputy O'Higgins at times.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is very hard to have patience with this stunting, very hard.

Under the circumstances I will say no more about it.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am not blaming the Deputy.

If the Deputy disagrees with the Chair he has a way of airing his disagreement.

The Deputy is aspersing the Chair.

I was trying to point out to the House the many reasons why this Bill should not pass. Deputies on the other side know full well that the Minister for Local Government intended to introduce a Bill and I cannot understand this attempt to forestall him. A serious effort will have to be made to redress the grievances that exist under the valuation code at the present time; this Bill will not do that. If the time spent in discussing this measure had been devoted to co-operation in trying to get a satisfactory measure considered by a Select Committee of the House, valuable work could have been done. Given co-operation we should be able to produce a Bill to remedy existing grievances. I believe that, given co-operation, we would have a great measure of support for a general revaluation under which all would be brought to the same level and all would contribute fairly and equitably to the burden of rates.

If this Bill passes its Second Reading will it not be sent to a Select Committee, as the Deputy has suggested, and there any alterations the Deputy likes can be made in it?

That is not what I have in mind. I have in mind a Bill something similar to the Defence Bill, to which the Deputy contributed in large measure. Any Valuation Bill will have to be divorced from politics, otherwisewe will never successfully remedy the thousand-and-one grievances that exist. Nor will we ever rid ourselves of the cancerous growths in the present valuation code as a whole. The Opposition would make a generous gesture if they agreed now to support the Government in any steps they take to eliminate existing grievances in relation to valuations. We will never have a decent valuation code unless the House treats the matter seriously and decides that no political kudos can be gained by any Party here through the medium of the valuation system.

I appeal to the Opposition to withdraw this Bill. If passed, it may bring, justly or otherwise, some political kudos. I appeal to them to face up to their responsibilities in this matter. None of us is satisfied with the valuation code at the moment.

An overhaul of this code as at present applied, especially to the licensed trade, is long overdue. At every street corner or crossroads where this question is discussed the general opinion expressed by country people is that they are prepared to take their crack on condition that it is universal, that everybody else is put in the same boat. If that were the case, there would be more equitable distribution of rates.

I would be only too happy if I thought we had solved the many difficulties contained in the existing code. We will not solve these difficulties until we put the nation before Party and until the question of valuation is divorced from politics. That is a matter that the people would appreciate more than cross-fire in the House and the expression of opinions that would not stand scrutiny.

Consideration of many aspects of the question of revaluation is long overdue. I have asked repeated questions here for a number of years as to the revaluation of Cork City. I shall not support anything that will prevent that. Unfortunately, Cork County has to join Cork City in every public service, such as the boards of assistance, mental hospitals, sanatoria,where the question of valuation arises. In home assistance alone, of every 1/- collected 9d. is paid by the rural area attached to Cork City.

Mainly the suburbs.

I will come to that later. Threepence is paid by the Cork City people and, in the distribution of home assistance, Cork City gets 8d. and the rest of the county gets 4d. That is a very handy way of doing business, I admit, for a certain class of plutocrats. The valuation of Cork City took place in 1852 and there has been no revaluation since. The poor people, who should be Deputy Hickey's personal care, the people of the suburbs, the people who were driven outside the city walls, are now paying on the new valuation basis for new houses. In Cork City the valuations on big business premises are lower in some cases than the valuations on labourers' houses. Deputy Hickey knows that. These are the facts. It is a glaring matter that demands rectification.

You were the greatest opponent of the extension of the borough boundary which would have had that effect.

The Corporation of which Deputy Hickey is a member have sternly opposed revaluation of Cork City, which would mean that the poor people outside that area would be relieved of some of the burden which was unjustly put on them.

Cork City is smaller than the urban area.

I have been opposed by Deputy Hickey whenever I endeavoured here to get revaluation of those business premises carried out. Deputy Hickey knows very well that those business premises have increased in value by at least £500 since the time they were valued.

I did not oppose you in anything.

Deputy Hickey, as a member of the corporation for a long number of years and as chief citizen of Cork City for a few years, made no attempt to protect the people whom hewas supposed to represent, who were paying on high valuations because they were driven out of the slums into houses outside the city. The capitalists of Patrick Street and the rest of it were let away with the loot.

Surely you have more regard for truth than that.

I hope Deputy Hickey will see the error of his ways.

I hope the Deputy has more regard for truth.

I hope that when there is general revaluation there will be a change in that position and that the unfortunate people who lived in the slums of Cork and who had to be housed party by the Corporation, but in great part by the rural authority, will now get some relief in their rates and that the wretched situation in which those capitalists have got away with it for a long number of years will be changed.

You helped them very well.

I am giving facts and Deputy Hickey knows it. I always know when I am getting under the hide because Deputy Hickey always mutters when I do.

All I want you to do is to speak the truth.

I know the needle is going in. I am giving facts that Deputy Hickey cannot contradict. Deputy Hickey was a member of the board of assistance with me for many years. He was present when I brought up this matter time and again. Deputy Hickey stayed with the city boys.

Have some regard for truth.

I am giving facts.

You are not.

I will produce for Deputy Hickey next week when we will be travelling together the minutes of the meetings.

This matter should be adjourned to the Cork Board of Assistance.

Deputy Hickey will get an opportunity of making his statement. He should allow Deputy Corry to proceed.

I do not want to hear Deputy Corry making untruthful statements. Deputy Corry knows he is not giving the facts.

If I made a statement here that Deputy Hickey voted against the separation in that respect, I will apologise to Deputy Hickey if I am wrong as soon as I see the minutes.

It does not seem to be relevant to this debate how Deputy Hickey voted.

All right, but it is relevant to the position he adopted as regards valuations. I certainly would not wish to wrong a Deputy. I now come to another position. I will take one of the towns in the rural area. I will take the town of Cobh——

That is more like it.

——which has been grossly over-valued, valued under entirely different circumstances from the circumstances that exist to-day, a town which even in doing its utmost cannot meet its county council obligations as regards rates due to over-valuation, due to the fact that that town has three times the valuation of any other town of its size in Cork County. As a matter of fact, the situation there was so glaring that it is the one town in this country that can boast that it succeeded in getting 33? reduction in ground rents owing to the grossly high valuation that was placed on it. The town was valued in entirely different circumstances when there was a British fleet in Cobh Harbour, when that harbour was the last sight that thousands of our people saw of this country in the days of the emigrant ship. That was the period when that town was valued. It is time that there was a revaluation of it for the purpose of reducing its valuation and reducing its rate—complete revaluation.

Those are points that are sticking out and points that prevent me fromvoting for any measure of this description. You have practically the same thing existing in any rural town to-day. You have built up outside that town practically a new town in each case. I would say that as regards Cork City the valuation of the suburbs has increased something like 300 per cent. in the last 20 years. Deputy Hickey knows that.

In the county council interests.

I am talking of the people who are living there——

Do not be prolonging the speech.

——and the people who are paying the piper and who have at the same time the knowledge that they are paying higher rates for their little houses in the suburbs than the gentleman in Patrick Street is paying for his business premises. That is the situation, and that is the situation that I would far prefer to see this House remove than to spend its time on a measure of this description.

Midleton is overvalued too.

No. The valuation of Midleton is all right. I know my geography very well.

That is why you will not put your nose inside Cobh.

It would be time for me to know my geography. You have springing up outside each of those towns at present a new town due to our housing schemes. On those houses a new valuation is being placed, a different valuation altogether, and a valuation that means that the rural areas surrounding that city have to pay the piper and the people living in those houses who are very largely the poorer classes, very largely people whom the corporation in the old days would put outside the walls of the city, are paying the new rate. But you have those people in the city proper who are getting all the business and theprofit from that situation. They are quite happy because they are paying under the old valuation. That is why I certainly would not put any obstacle whatever in the way as far as revaluation of that city is concerned, or anything that would prevent a revaluation of the town of Cobh with a view to bringing it down to what it should properly be. A business premises in Cobh is at present valued three times as highly as a business premises in Patrick Street in Cork, and the business done and the turnover of a shop in Patrick Street would be ten times the turnover of any business premises in Cobh. Those are facts.

That is our 21st visit to Patrick Street.

I will take any other portion or any other one of the streets in Cork city on the same basis and on the basis of business turnover. Those are facts that stick out in so far as revaluation is concerned. There have been enormous changes in this country since the general valuation of 1852.

Since the debate continued.

Will the Deputy kindly go to sleep again? He has been sleeping there all the time.

Are you not a stranger in Cobh now?

Do not go spoiling it. I would like people outside to think that all Deputies have a bit of intelligence, you know. Therefore, I can see no justification whatever for any Bill that is going to prevent justice being done in so far as ratepayers with no redress here are concerned, and in my opinion this Bill would prevent justice being done in that respect. I have endeavoured here time and again to bring to the notice of all governments the outrageous condition of affairs that exists in so far as the six rural areas that were attached to Cork City both for mental hospital, for home assistance and other things are concerned. It is a disgrace that those plutocrats living in luxury there in the city on the earnings of the unfortunate people for20 miles around, having all that wealth, the hard-earned wealth of the countryside, pouring into them, should be allowed to get away with the valuations that were made away back in 1852. It is time that that situation was changed, and I am hoping now that we will have a revaluation in so far as Cork City and the town of Cobh are concerned. It is long overdue. I do not wish to hold up the House. I came in here for the purpose of not allowing this Bill to go through without putting before the House that picture of the 9d. paid and the 4d. got back as far as the six rural areas surrounding Cork City are concerned.

I have referred to it repeatedly here in this House. My colleague, Mr. Broderick, the chairman of the Cork County Council, when he was a Deputy, called attention to it as well. It still exists and it is there like an ulcer eating into the earnings of the unfortunate people outside. I am suggesting that that situation should be remedied and I am also stating that, in my opinion, this will prevent the remedying of that situation.

I think it is agreed, even by the people who sponsor this Bill, that this measure is only a half measure. I think some Deputies referred to it as a sort of "device" to get this matter talked about.

It is a good half.

A small half.

In my opinion, this Bill will, if enacted, make matters worse. A lot of things need to be remedied in the valuation system of this country. Quite recently I came across an example in point. The Commissioners of Valuation went down to an area to value turbary. They went along to this townland and they put a valuation on the turbary of a very small farmer. The unfortunate man knew nothing about it until he was presented with a demand note for payment of the money. He went to the county manager and complained about the matter.

Mr. O'Higgins

There is nothing about turbary in this Bill.

It is because it is not in this Bill that I am objecting to it.

The Deputy is entitled to talk only about what is in this Bill.

If that statement were true, then the Deputy would have been ruled out of order.

The Deputy is entitled to do so on the Second Reading. He is entitled to discuss what is in the Bill and what he would like to see in the Bill.

I hope that satisfies Deputy Rooney. This man of whom I was speaking knew nothing whatever about the valuation which was placed on his turbary until he was presented with a demand note for payment. He went to the county manager and complained about the matter. The county manager informed him that he was under no obligation to send him any word in regard to imposing this valuation. He further informed the man that he could appeal the following year. The man did so and it was found that this turbary right should not have been valued at all. However, the man had no remedy. He had to pay that money which was wrongfully demanded of him and he was at the loss of all that money. I submit that that is something that should be covered in a Bill of the kind which we are now discussing. Is there, however, anything about it in the Bill? There is not. This Bill is purely and simply what it has been described—a Bill for one particular class and, as has been pointed out by many Deputies, that is a class that can best afford it. The people who are to benefit under this Bill are the people in the towns and cities who improve their premises in order to save on surtax and income-tax. I can see nothing in the world wrong with asking these people to pay additional rates and, as a country Deputy, I have no hesitation in saying that here. I cannot see how anycountry Deputy or any Labour Deputy will vote for a Bill of this nature which is for the purpose of relieving moneyed people at the expense of the small people.

Revaluation is a very big question. I heard a Deputy, whom I had considered to be a responsible Deputy. state that the rate collectors wanted valuations increased in order to get more poundage. The increase in valuation does not mean a thing. If the valuation of the country were doubled to-morrow it would not make any difference. The same amount of money would be collected and would be required for the upkeep of certain services. The rise in valuation has not anything to do with it. I do not know whether a general revaluation would improve matters one bit. It is a matter on which there could be a great deal of controversy because, no matter what might be done, there could be complaints.

This Bill is for one certain class. Until a Bill is introduced that will relieve a lot of the grievances which different people have in regard to valuations, I do not think that we will make any progress in this matter. I know that there are grievances. Take, for instance, the one which I mentioned just a few moments ago of the very small farmer whose turbary was valued.

I heard remarks passed in this House about towns becoming derelict and people selling out. That very remark was passed about my own native town and, since it was made, I have received letters from various people in that town asking me to repudiate that statement. There is no truth whatsoever in it. In fact, there is a bigger demand for houses in that town now than there ever was. I think that 80 houses were given out in Sligo town by Sligo Corporation last Monday night, and there is still a waiting list of over 100 applicants for new houses. That does not indicate that the town is becoming derelict or that the houses are being sold out. If there is a waiting list of 100 applicants, I submit that it shows that quite the opposite is, infact, the truth, and that, instead of people selling out and leaving the town, people are anxious to settle in it.

Any man who makes a statement to the effect that the people in a town are selling out and that the town is becoming derelict is, I submit, doing a great disservice not only to the town itself but to our community in general. We are asking people to invest their money in industry in that town and in other towns. I submit that irresponsible statements can do a great deal of damage because no man will come in and invest his money in industry in a town which is dying out. People should be more careful and think before they make rash statements.

When a Bill is introduced into this House which will cope with the grievances that exist in our present valuation code I think it will receive the general support of this House. However, a Bill such as this Bill, whose purpose is to relieve one section of the community—people who in my opinion are better able to bear it than the poorer sections—will not receive general agreement and I submit that it is only by general agreement that we will get a Bill of the kind which is wanted. Some Deputies have already said that this Bill is merely a device to get us talking about this subject. I suppose that any talk there has been on the matter is all to the good but I do not see how any Deputy can honestly support a Bill of this kind which is for the purpose of relieving one class of the community. Therefore I think this Bill should be withdrawn.

I am not under any starter's orders in regard to this discussion.

You are an exception then, Peadar.

Yes. I have been intrigued by the debate and by the observations we have had from all sides of the House in regard to this matter. Obviously the matter of valuation and rates is very important and serious so far as the country is concerned because anybody who owns any property contributes a certainamount of money each year to the local authority by way of rates.

During the course of this debate I heard the arguments advanced from either side of the House and I think it may be taken that, generally, the members of the House are unanimous in their opinion that the present system of rating is a bad system of rating and that it ought to be changed.

I think the House is almost unanimous on another point of view that there are so many difficulties in the way that it is impossible to see how an alteration can be brought about without the setting up of a very laborious and costly inquiry which would spend many years probing into it. I am wondering whether we have the right approach at all to it. It strikes me as ridiculous, to some extent, that we should have a system of rating at all and I will put forward a view which would suggest itself from the general consensus of ideas which have been expressed during the debate. If the system is so nonsensical as has been suggested by people opposed to it and so impossible to improve, why can we not get rid of it altogether? Why can we not abolish it? Why can we not do away with it and relieve all the people in the towns and the country of this fixed charge that comes along every year in respect of rates and property?

I see no reason in the world why we should have a system of rating. The amount which the local authorities obtain from the rating of property is a very small sum in the general total of State taxation and I think that if the amount collected by local authorities by means of rates were transferred to the responsibility of the Central Fund and collected in taxes it would be a fairer way of dealing with the matter. Our rating system was introduced in 1852—what is known as the Griffith valuation, though I am not altogether sure of that—and obviously it cannot apply properly or equitably now. For quite a number of years I have heard political Parties advocating the complete abolition of rates in regard to agricultural land. We had that programme for quite a long time and I amwondering what great upset there would be to the State if we abolished rates on property entirely. We might have to substitute some form of property tax—I do not know—but it seems to me that this old system of valuation has outlived its usefulness and that there is no great reason why we should continue it.

If one studies the history of poor law valuation, one will find that, for a long period, rights of voting, rights of election and rights of representation depended on poor law valuation. It was an important factor in the development of democracy and there were limitations imposed on the right of people to be represented, or at least to have any say in their representation, by the different poor law valuations. The House having had a most enlightening discussion on the question of rates, it should now decide that this Bill, a Private Members' Bill as it is, should be left aside and that some committee might be set up representing the House to consider whether or not we want to continue the system of poor law valuation as it exists in Ireland. There are so many anomalies, so many difficulties and so many defects connected with it that I think it is a matter well worthy of study.

This Bill was introduced by Deputy O'Higgins, who made a very good case for the particular point he has put before the House, but the whole system of rating is so big that he is dealing only with a small part of a big problem. If he realises—and I think the sponsors of the Bill realise —that even if this Bill were to be accepted by the House in the form in which it has been introduced, it would create more difficulties than exist at the moment. It is a most involved, complicated, antiquated and archaic system and I think it ought to be examined in its entirety rather than that we should make an attempt to deal with one small aspect of it now. I am very grateful to Deputies for the very valuable information they have given me as to the complexities of this problem and I hope the House will accept the very sensible suggestion I make with regard to it now.

Mr. Brennan

Every speaker in this debate is agreed on one point—that our valuation system does call for some overhaul. Those of us who are members of local authorities are painfully aware of the inequity of the present system and we are also well aware that the Bill, while there is good in it, goes a very short distance towards covering any of the problems which exist in relation to valuation. One of the principal grievances held by ratepayers at large is the fact that, even in the same small village, you will find one house the valuation of which has been increased recently and side by side with it another house on which the rates are based on a low valuation struck many years ago.

We in Donegal have the example of the town of Buncrana where a revision of valuation was asked for by the urban district council by a majority vote of one. The casting vote of the chairman carried a motion asking for a revision of the valuation of the urban area. The valuation was in the vicinity of £7,000. Rather promptly, the revenue people responded and a revaluation was carried out. The people of that town found their valuation increased to a gross total of over £11,000. These people have a very genuine grievance in a county where the rates are 35/- in the £ when they see their neighbours paying that high rate on a valuation which may have been struck 50 years ago. I may tell the House that, in common with many other people whose valuations were increased recently, they are looking to this House to introduce some form of legislation that will bring some equity into the system whereby these people contribute to the annual rates.

Debate adjourned.
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