Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Dec 1953

Vol. 143 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Milk Prices—Motion.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That having regard to the greatly increased costs of milk productionand in view of the fact that the findings of the costings commission may not be available for a considerable time, Dáil Eireann is of the opinion that the price of milk to the producer should be reviewed and increased immediately.—(Deputies Patrick D. Lehane, Patrick Cogan, Patrick Finucane.)

Mr. Lehane

This motion was tabled some 12 months ago. It is unfortunate that the Government did not accept the motion and deal with it when it was tabled because, if the Government had dealt with it, a good deal of unpleasantness that occurred in the meantime would have been avoided. We know that there was a milk strike brought about largely because of a stupid letter written by the Department of Agriculture to the Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, to the Leinster Milk Producers Association and to the Cork Milk Producers Association. If this House had dealt with the motion when it was tabled a lot of the unpleasantness that occurred in the early months of this year would probably have been avoided.

In asking for an increase in the price of milk, I want to make it quite clear that the agricultural community are very concerned with the cost of living and the cost of butter. We know from the reports on the nutritional survey that the agricultural community buy a very considerable amount of butter that is produced in creameries. All over the country farmers now send their milk to the creamery, and when the price of butter is increased the farmers have to pay the increased price. It has been shown in the report on the nutritional survey that the agricultural community buy more than half the butter that is produced and consumed in this country. Consequently, every increase in the price of butter increases the household budget of the farmer as well as everybody else.

The farmer does not want to increase the price of butter; he does not want to increase the cost of living; but, if the Minister and the Government increase the farmers' costs thefarmer has no redress except to ask that his increased cost of production be put on the price of his milk. The Minister for Agriculture and the Government have increased the cost of production considerably.

The circular that was issued by the Minister for Local Government last May, dealing with rates on agricultural land, imposed an additional burden of £500,000 on the farmers. The farmers who are producing milk have nowhere to get that £500,000 except by increasing the price of milk.

To produce milk you must have cows, you must have grass, you must have fertilisers to grow the grass. The Government have imposed a tariff on fertilisers, which is a tax on milk production. The Government, last June, imposed a heavy tax on barbed wire, ordinary wire, that is necessary for fencing a farmer's holding. If the farmer has to pay more for his roll of barbed wire, he has no place to get that money except in the price of his milk. The Government have imposed taxes and tariffs on milk cans and cotton-wool pads for straining milk. For everything the farmer buys he is paying an inflated price due to the action of the Government.

The farmer in the Twenty-Six Counties has to buy all his requirements in a protected local market and to sell his product at something approaching world prices.

The Minister, through his Department, has affected the yields of the cows in dairy counties by imposing on the farmers in these counties a Livestock Breeding Act which lays down that every bull kept by a farmer, if he wants to produce milk, will be a type of bull that is sanctioned by his Department for its purely beef characteristics. In imposing this bull on the dairy farmers the Minister is reducing the yield of the dairy cows in Ireland and is increasing the cost of production on the farmers.

I understand that at the moment there is an application before the Agricultural Wages Board for an increase of 12/6 a week for agricultural workers. I do not begrudge the agricultural worker a decent wage. I think the agricultural worker is our greatest national asset and I do not think heshould be paid less than a person who is engaged in the manufacture of razor blades or in any other calling. If the costs of producing milk are to be increased by Orders and rules made by bodies, the only way in which the producer can be compensated for that is by increasing the price of his product.

To produce milk a dairy farmer must have cows. At times he has to change his cows and to sell old cows when they have ceased to be capable of producing milk economically. Even at that point the Minister comes in again and puts a tax of 50/- on the hide of that old cow.

A letter was published in the Sunday Independentof November 22nd, 1953, headed, “Price of Hides”. It said:—

"Sir—Thanks to Mr. Dillon for his questions regarding hide prices. Very few receive 1/- per lb., as the average is 8d., less commission and carriage amounting to 3/- per hide. In Derry the price paid is 1/7 per lb. Thus we are compelled to sell our hides at at least a loss of 50/-each, yet our boots and shoes show no reduction in price."

All along the line this is what I am trying to argue—that the Minister and the Government are increasing the cost of production, and I suggest to the Minister that if he wants to get milk produced cheaply; butter produced cheaply, he should remove all the factors that are hampering production at the moment. I have tried to indicate the ways in which as I see it the Minister and the Government have increased the cost of production during the past 12 months. I want to reiterate the fact that as far as the farmers are concerned the increase in the price of butter is affecting them as much as it is affecting anybody else, but I want the Minister to discontinue imposing extra costs of production on the farmers and let us produce our milk and butter as cheaply as we can. We have in this country the best farmers in the world. We have the best agricultural workers in the world, and if the Minister will not increase the cost of production we can produce the commodity in competition with any country in the world.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion being seconded?

Mr. Finucane

Yes. I wish to second this motion as I believe that the present price of milk is completely inadequate and far below the cost of production. To prove that, I would say that I know that in the Munster counties, in the dairy counties, complete herds of dairy cattle have been disposed of and in many cases the herds have been reduced considerably. The dairying industry is described, and rightly so, as the foundation stone of Irish agriculture, and over the past number of years the different Governments in this country have very reluctantly, or you could say very grudgingly, given any increases to the dairy farmers. I would ask the Minister and the Government to review the whole dairy position and to adopt a long-term policy which would indicate to the producers that milk production was a sound investment and would encourage the producer to sink the necessary capital in the business. I would also suggest that we should get away from methods hampering increased production. I would further suggest to the Minister to subsidise butter. I think it will relieve the present position. Prices are very high, and it would bring butter within the reach of the poorer sections of the community to buy. I would like an assurance from the Minister when he is replying that he would look up these facts. This motion has been down several months—long before the milk strike—and I know that the cost of production and collection of milk in this country is not in keeping with present prices.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I wish to support this motion, and I would remark that it requires some additional support in view of the complete lack of interest by one of the Deputies who appended his name to the motion but who is not even present in the House to listen to the discussion on it. I wonder if it has ever happened before to have a Deputy go to the trouble of conferring with his colleagues, drafting a motion, succeeding in getting it on the Order Paper, and then vacating theHouse when it comes up for discussion Certainly, it is a very strange attitude to adopt.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

The motion is out of date now, is it not?

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Not in the slightest.

Mr. Walsh

Absolutely.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Not in the slightest. The purpose which I am sure actuated the three Deputies who put down this motion has not been in the slightest interfered with or affected by anything since the motion was put down, because as any increase was granted so were production costs increased. Deputy Lehane and Deputy Finucane have already referred to some of these costs, but surely it is apparent to everybody, nor is it too long at all since the Taoiseach spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis and indicated that as a result of the removal of food subsidies compensatory benefits had to be given to every section of the community, and he mentioned the sum, which was quite considerable, that he stated was spent by this State in providing those compensatory benefits. I claim that the agricultural community contributed in no small measure to the provision of that sum, but I cannot see where any benefit accrued to the dairy farmers to give them some opportunity of meeting the increased cost of living. Let it be noted that those people work hard in the open seven days a week every day of the year, with no holiday, no limitation of hours, having to work in every weather. The farmer, his wife, his sons, his daughters and his workmen and those female labourers employed—all those people require nourishment. They require food, and a lot of it. Those are the people who consume butter, who eat bread, who drink tea, and we know that because of the nature of their work, away from the house as they have to be for many meals, they have need to consume more in the way of bread and butter than the ordinary workman.

Is it not a fact that an increase was given in agricultural wages so that the agricultural labourer would be in aposition to assist his housekeeper in meeting the drastic increase in the cost of living as a result of the practical abolition of food subsidies, but that the farmer had to find that increase and also find an increase for his own wife because she also had to meet practically every item that was increased by the abolition of food subsidies? She also had to face that difficulty. That is merely in relation to the ordinary cost of living, the necessaries of life, but there has also been a very active attack on the simple luxuries of life, and in that respect, again, the farmer and his family have had to meet very high commitments. I am sure that many people would class whiskey as a luxury. They definitely would not regard it as a necessity, but perhaps if they travelled seven or eight miles to a market on a very cold morning, leaving in the very early hours, they might think that they could very well do with a hot drop. On many occasions when they go to fairs and have to go out in all kinds of weather, in all kinds of conditions, they have to take nourishment, so that there again there has been an attack on their little savings.

Let us come now to some of the actual production costs, some of the very large increases that have occurred as a result of deliberate Government policy. The Minister for Finance having brought in that Budget, which was designed to extract the last penny possible from the taxpayer, found that there was a limit to what he could get and then had to turn to his colleagues to devise various means to supplement revenue for the Exchequer. One of those who was asked to contribute was the Minister for Local Government. He tried a double-edged weapon. He cut the Local Authorities (Works) Act grants which were of considerable benefit to farmers in the dairying areas. The Minister is, I am quite sure, aware that when water becomes stagnant it breeds fluke and many other evils affecting young cattle. The cessation of work under that scheme involved a sorry loss for the farmers. Then there was a deliberate attack on the cost of producing milk when the tax on the ordinary little"convert" was increased and when the price of petrol was increased. The co-operative society, the Dairy Disposals Board, the chocolate factories, the dried milk concerns and the other ancillary industries had their costs increased to a great extent by that deliberate action of the Minister for Local Government. As the dairying people have to meet these everincreasing costs they naturally feel that, they, like every other section of the community, are entitled to an increase in income to cover these increased costs.

Reference has been made to the increased cost of fertilisers. We know that there was a considerable amount of fertilisers brought in and stored here some three and a half or four years ago, and they were sold later at a tremendous price to the farmers. There has never been a satisfactory explanation as to how the increase in price came about, but a considerable sum had to be paid by the farmers as a result of the increase. No doubt production costs affect all branches of agriculture but they affect dairies more than any other section. We see that the grain growers very properly looked for protection from the falling price of maize, which might affect the price of oats and barley here at home. Is it not a fact that the action taken to support grain prices is one of the things that militate against a reduction in the production costs of the dairy farmers? I am not saying that such action was not necessary but yet it results in placing a burden on those who have to feed cattle and produce milk. Remember it is the farmers who can grow less in the way of grain crops who have to face the longest winter-feeding and who are faced with considerable expenditure if they have to maintain their live stock in that degree of productive capacity which the Minister regards as desirable.

Mr. Walsh

It is a pity you did not make that speech in 1950.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I was not a member of the House in 1950. I know that at that time the Minister was a member of Kilkenny County Committeeof Agriculture and that he had very extravagant ideas as to what the price of milk should be.

Mr. Walsh

And I fulfilled every one of them.

Mr. Blowick

2/- a gallon.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

We know that the Minister recanted on that. The Minister will recall that a few years before 1950 we had a different Minister for Agriculture—in 1937, for instance—and there were 147,000 calves slaughtered in the country. Was that intended to improve the dairying industry?

An Ceann Comhairle

You cannot discuss that matter on this motion.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I contend, Sir, that if the calves had survived that holocaust——

Mr. Walsh

Half of them were bulls.

An Ceann Comhairle

It will be impossible to conduct the debate if more than one Deputy tries to speak at the same time. Deputy O'Sullivan is in possession.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I contend that if the 147,000 calves that were sacrificed in 1937 had survived the holocaust we would have available to the farmers of the country sufficient cattle to provide the dead meat trade with the raw material it now requires. It is more than likely that many of those which succumbed at that time would prove to be quite suitable cattle.

Mr. Walsh

The cattle population has actually increased in recent years.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

The Minister, no doubt, will get a chance of speaking to this motion later. That was a deliberate action on the part of the members of the present Government when they were in office formerly. Be it noted that one of the first actions of Deputy Dillon was to see that that business was discontinued and the result, of course, was that cattle were saved to the industry. Furthermore, the ancillary industries were considerably improved. We can recall that theprice of dry stock improved considerably after the trade agreement was made in June, 1948. Since that time we know that milk was used by farmers for rearing poultry, turkeys, etc., and now just at this time of the year when they need most help many of these dairy farmers' wives and daughters find themselves facing a very bleak Christmas. It is only a few years ago since they were able to supplement the income they got for milk by the receipts from the turkey trade, the prospects for which are not too rosy at the moment.

The Minister for Local Government failed to give to the dairying industry the recognition that was afforded by his predecessor when farmers' vehicles were exempted from heavy taxation and when farmers were allowed to transport their neighbour's milk for reward at a low price. To-day the farmers find that the tax on these vehicles is practically prohibitive. The period when the industry is facing such great difficulties is surely not the time to reimpose a tax that had been considerably reduced.

In recent debates here figures were given of the vastly increased numbers who fled from the land in recent years, numbers in which, unfortunately, there was a rapid acceleration last year. That fact makes it still more difficult for farmers in the dairying areas to continue their work, to improve their holdings, perhaps increase their herds and to bring about that increased production to which everybody pays lip service. Is it not a fact that one of the outstanding features of the improvement in our balance of payments was the big increase in the value of live stock exported from this country and that in this industry we have the cradle of that live stock export trade? I was referring, Sir, to the fact that so many workers have left the land. There are many parts of the country in which farmers find it extremely difficult to compete with the inducements given to people to leave the land and to enter other walks of life. That fact is contributing to a great extent to the many difficulties which farmers are encountering.

The young boy who is employed bya dairy farmer, after he leaves the national school, and at a time when he knows very little about the work he has to perform, may be said to be serving an apprenticeship but, far from having to pay a fee, such as would be required in other trades, this boy is paid. He is kept in the farmhouse, he eats with the farmer's family and he grows up with the farmer's own sons.

In the course of four or five years he learns something about the work and becomes of some value to the farmer. During that time he is paid, not as much possibly as many people would desire, but yet something better than what Deputy Desmond said is given in industrial employment in this country. What happens? He sees some very attractive posters, the cost of which is defrayed by his employer and every other person in the community, inviting him to leave the land and join the Army in which he will have limited hours and all sorts of games on which to expend his energy. In face of that, many hundreds of young men that were of very great help to this country were taken off the land and put into barracks. I wonder what increase of production will come about as a result of that change. That is only one of the difficulties which farmers have to meet.

This motion is one which deserves the support of the House. When we consider the difficulties encountered by those engaged in milk production and the fact that the cost of living has increased, it is unfortunate that the buffer which existed during the time of the inter-Party Government between the cost of marketing butter and the price to the public was wiped out completely by the abolition of the food subsidies. The result has been that when dairy farmers mention the getting of an economic price for milk immediately we have the consuming public up in arms. But when the producers brought it home to these people, and unfortunately they had to resort to extreme means to do so, it was amazing the amount of understanding which prevailed amongst people far removed from the dairying areas when they realised the difficulties which dairy farmers have to contend with.

In face of these difficulties, surely the Minister will be in a position at least to give an assurance to the House that neither he nor his colleagues will in the course of the coming months do anything to aggravate the position more than they have done. We are told that the cost of cold storage is to be removed, the Minister says partially, from the Exchequer, that the profit on the imports of butter will now relieve the Minister for Finance of that obligation. That, presumably, is one of the things foreshadowed in the Minister for Finance's Budget statement when he said that taxation rests lightly on the land and that the farmer could very well meet this. But surely, in face of that, the Government cannot stand over a policy of requiring this section of the community to carry on as they are doing or to extend their way of living and produce more and thus make unnecessary the imports which are being brought in by the Government in such substantial quantities unless they give some indication that they in turn will do something to ease the production costs.

We know that the intention of the Government was to rook the farming community by the attack that was to be made on the rate abatement for agricultural land. If any change has occurred in the intention of the Government in that respect it was brought about by the very decisive result of two by-elections.

Mr. Walsh

South Galway?

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

No, it had not occurred at that time. The East Cork and Wicklow by-elections were quite sufficient to make the Minister for Local Government drop it. I have cited some of the increased costs which have arisen during the past two years and most of them can be attributed to deliberate Government policy. Therefore, in supporting this motion, we demand that the Government should, by a deliberate policy, assist those who are engaged in the production of milk to meet the increasing cost of living and the increased production costs.

Mr. Walsh

This motion was put down on the Order Paper as far back as November, 1952, and many changes have taken place not merely in this House but outside this House since the motion was put down. I may have been wrong when I suggested that Deputy O' Sullivan trooped into the Lobby gaily behind Deputy Dillon and I am sorry if I was. But I do know that Deputy Madden, Deputy Rooney. Deputy O. Flanagan, and Deputy MacEoin walked into the Division Lobby and voted against an increase in the price of milk.

Mr. Rooney

The cost of living was very low then.

Mr. Walsh

It was low and the price offered to the farmers for milk was very low. We remember the price which was offered in Dungarvan—1/-per gallon.

Mr. Rooney

With a guarantee.

Mr. Walsh

When we came into office we rectified these things by giving an increase to the dairy people. We were not very long in office when there was an increase given.

Mr. Rooney

One penny a gallon.

Mr. Walsh

In addition to that, we made provision for an inquiry into the cost of production, and I say that this motion is now out of date because of the changes which have taken place since it was put down and because the costings committee, which was set up in October, 1952, has not yet sent in its report there is very little purpose in discussing the motion. However, I think it is necessary at this stage to point out that we increased the price of milk in 1951. The price of milk went up again last March, not because it was increased by the Government at that time, but as a result of Government action in permitting an increase in the price of butter. The mover of the motion, and also Deputy O'Sullivan, should realise that the Government do not fix a price for milk. The Government have fixed a price for butter and because of that the creameries increased the price given for milk. Let us be clear on that point.

Mr. Rooney

Has that always been the case?

Mr. Walsh

That has been the way since 1st March when the subsidies were withdrawn. No longer can it be said that the Government fix the price of milk. The price of milk is governed by the price of butter and the price paid by a creamery is governed by the efficiency of the creamery and of the creamery manager. We have throughout the country various prices for milk depending on the efficiency of the creamery, on the overhead expenses, on the locality in which it is situated, and on the butter tests. All these are factors which must be taken into consideration before you can say what the price of milk is in any particular district. In the past we had variations from 1d. to 2d. per gallon, even in well managed creameries. In some cases it was because the supply might be lower, although the management was good; others had low expenses with a large supply and as a result a reasonably good price was paid. Even though this motion was put down in November, 1952, changes have taken place since then. We had an increase of 4d. per lb. in butter, which enabled well managed and efficient creameries to pay anywhere from 1.6 to 1.7 pence more for milk.

Mr. Rooney

You had a milk strike.

Mr. Walsh

That increase was worth £1,500,000 to the dairying industry. No reference was made to that by the mover of the motion or by Deputy O'Sullivan. It is conveniently forgotten that that £1,500,000 went into the pockets of the dairy farmers.

Mr. Rooney

Is not the average yield up?

Mr. Walsh

The average yield has gone up and if the average dairy farmer wants to maintain his income he does it, as I have pointed out on many occasions, not by having increased prices but by better feeding, better breeding, greater use of fertilisers and lime, as we have had this year. There has been a greater supply of milk this year than in anyyear since 1936. What was responsible for it?

Mr. O'Sullivan

The weather, to some extent.

Mr. Walsh

The weather was not responsible for feeding the cows.

Deputies

Oh, now, now.

Mr. Walsh

The weather was not responsible for feeding the cows. It gave better grass to feed them—that is the difference. The use of more lime and fertilisers was responsible for the increase in the gallonage of milk that went into the creameries. What I have advocated during the past two years, since I came into these benches, was that farmers should increase the income by increasing the gallonage per cow. I have pointed out on many occasions that an increase of 1d. per gallon was of little use to a dairy farmer, but it meant 3d. per lb. on the price of butter. These are the things that have been happening in the past. You have evidence of what can be done if greater use is made of the land— more use of lime and fertilisers, more grass, better winter feeding and, as a result, a greater income per cow for the farmer. That is the only way in which this can be done. You have to-day the consumer to decide whether he is going to pay that price for butter or not, whether you are going to maintain the consumption of butter or not. If the consumption goes down as a result of high prices, the farmer's income goes down. The only way in which he can maintain his income is by increasing his supply of milk. He can do that by greater use of artificial manures or fertilers and the use of lime.

When I set up the costings committee it was done with a view to finding out what it cost to produce a gallon of milk. That committee has been working since 1952. It finished the field operations in October, 1953, and will submit a report by April of 1954. If, as a result of the findings of that committee, a review of prices must be held, the Government will review those prices after receiving that report. Until then I see no purpose in a motion of this kind.

There are two means by which the price could be increased—one is by the old system of subsidies for butter and a subsidy means taxation. Do Deputies opposite stand for greater taxation? Surely Deputies are not that dense they do not know there are two ways —one is taxation and the other an increase in the price of butter.

Mr. Rooney

There was a subsidy.

Mr. Walsh

Yes. A subsidy means taxation. Money does not fall from heaven like manna. You must take it out of the people's pockets. You stand for taxation, then?

General MacEoin

Number 15 of the 17 points.

Mr. Walsh

You have taxation on the one hand or an increased price for butter on the other. There is no middle way. Let the Deputies give us the solution.

Mr. Allen

A reduction in the price of milk?

Mr. Walsh

That was what they suggested before, when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Madden

You must admit that a solution must be found.

Mr. Walsh

The solution is there and it has been there always.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Madden had an opportunity to speak.

Mr. Madden

The Minister asked a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was a rhetorical question.

Mr. Walsh

People have been making propaganda speeches, but the people in the country are not fools and will not follow that lead.

Mr. Madden

We did not make them. I do not like that kind of thing.

Mr. Walsh

Some people here suggest we must increase taxation in order to give a subsidy to increase the price of milk. I would like to know which way Fine Gael are going on this motion. I would like to know howDeputy Hickey is going. Does he want the cost of living increased?

General MacEoin

Would the Minister tell us how Deputy Cogan will go?

Mr. Walsh

Would Deputy Hickey support an increase in the cost of living? Will he vote for an increased price of butter? Will Deputies who have been shouting so much about the increase in taxation vote for an increase in taxation, if we are to revert to the old policy of making subsidies available in order to reduce the price of butter or increase the price of milk? It must be one way or the other. Let Deputies realise that.

Mr. Hickey

Or increase the number of gallons of milk per cow?

Mr. Walsh

That is the only way in which the farmer's income can be maintained—better breeding, better feeding, more use of lime and fertilisers, as we had this year. The production of milk this year has been higher than in any year since 1936— even though Deputy O'Sullivan will maintain that, because of the slaughter of calves 15 years ago, the number of cows——

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

No, no, 1947. The figures I gave related to 1947, to one year only. Do not misquote me.

General MacEoin

They are three years old.

Mr. Walsh

I wonder who started that? Where did you find the figures? It was a pity some of the calves in this House were not slaughtered.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

It was my question. I got it from the Minister.

Mr. O. Flanagan

There is many an old cow in the House could do with slaughter.

Mr. Walsh

This was the Deputy's argument, that because of the slaughter of the calves 20 years ago——

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

No, no, in 1947.

Mr. Walsh

——almost 20 years ago——

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

In 1947.

Mr. Walsh

——the number of cows has been diminishing since.

Mr. Allen

Seventy thousand cattle.

Mr. Walsh

I can tell the Deputy that the number of gallons that have gone to the creameries this year has been the highest since 1936. We have produced more butter in this year than in any year since before the war, notwithstanding the fact that we have diverted more milk into milk products than in any year since the State was founded.

Mr. Rooney

These cows would be only one year old now.

Mr. Walsh

All these things indicate that some Deputies would like to shed crocodile tears over the dairy farmers. They say the dairy farmers are dissatisfied, but I do not believe one word of it.

Mr. Rooney

Why was the strike?

Mr. Walsh

I do not know why they had a strike. Many of them were misled by propagandists that got loose at that time on the unfortunate farmers, but when it was only two or three days old the people realised their mistake.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Deputy Corry was on strike.

Mr. Rooney

We got the verdict in Limerick.

Mr. Walsh

It is a good job you deny it, that you did not encourage anyone to go on strike.

Mr. Rooney

We got our result in Limerick.

Mr. Walsh

I think this motion is of very little use at the present time. We have at present no function in regard to the price of milk. The price of butter is the question now, not milk. It is on the price of butter that depends the price the creameries will pay for milk. As regards liquid milk, milk supplies to Dublin and Cork, we have a minimum price for producers.

For the remainder of the country, outside Dublin and Cork, there is nocontrol. The producer is entitled to any price he can obtain for his milk. There is no restriction on price there.

As far as milk prices are concerned, we have (1) the creamery milk; (2) the liquid milk to Dublin and Cork and (3) the liquid milk for the remainder of the country. I do not like to remind Deputies of their actions in the past few years and of their attitude to the dairy farmers.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Do not remind us of yours.

Mr. Walsh

My attitude is well known. I fulfilled every promise I made—even the 1/6.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Two shillings a gallon.

Mr. Walsh

No, Deputy, never 2/-. It was 1/6. Now, thank God, they are getting 1/8 for their milk—not the 1/2 that we had here when Deputy Rooney was supporting the inter-Party Government Minister on the 1/- a gallon scheme. That day is gone.

Mr. Rooney

I supported a guaranteed price.

Mr. Walsh

If the farmers had accepted Deputy Dillon's guarantee— I think it was in 1949——

Mr. Rooney

A guaranteed minimum.

Mr. Walsh

——they would have lost 1/2 in 1950-51 and, since then, the increased price I have given them. Deputy Lehane and Deputy D.J. O'Sullivan very conveniently forgot to mention the £1,500,000 the farmers got last year. For these reasons, I think that this motion should not be considered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Madden.

General MacEoin

Is the Minister not accepting the motion?

Mr. Walsh

No. I have no function in the matter.

Mr. Rooney

Has Deputy Cogan no say in your Party? Has he nothing to say?

Mr. Fanning

He will speak for himself.

Mr. Rooney

Has he no say in your Party?

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Minister told him to go home.

Mr. Rooney

He ran for his life.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have called on Deputy Madden.

Mr. Madden

It is a recognised philosophy in the world to-day that increased production is essential to the well-being of any country and any community. There are two headings under which production can be brought about—industry and agriculture. There are limitations in this country under the heading of industrial production due to the fewness of skilled industrial workers here and also due to the fact that raw materials are limited, to a degree. It is axiomatic, therefore, that if the economic structure of this country is to be maintained and if it is to flourish it must ultimately be brought about by increased agricultural production.

I do not intend to indulge now in any kind of a political argument across the floor of this House on the question of milk. This question ought to be approached in a broad and democratic and national spirit. For the past 16 years I have been a member either of this House or of the Seanad and I have given a great deal of serious thought to the question of the dairying industry. Looking on the matter dispassionately, I can only see the country as a whole and I can say, without any fear of contradiction, that I am afraid that none of our Governments seem to have made a real and a sincere effort to implement to the maximum degree the ideas they expressed on the economics of the country. They have paid a good deal of lip service and they have given the impression that their view is that agriculture is the basis of our economy, but, as I say, a real and a sincere effort does not ever seem to have been made to implement the views which various Ministers have expressed.

How many times have we heard Ministers say in this House that the economic well-being of our country isbased upon agriculture and that the foundation on which the agricultural structure must be built is the dairying industry? I was amused to hear a man of the Minister's experience say that the dairy farmers are satisfied. Are our farmers satisfied? Is the industry in a flourishing condition? Surely the Minister will admit that that is not the case. Surely he will admit the veracity of statements by authorities whose facts and figures cannot be disputed? We have been told that 80,000 persons have left the land. How many times during the past week have we heard it said in this House that 22,000 more left the land between 1952 and 1953? We have also been told about the reduction in the dairy cow population.

Mr. Walsh

And yet we have more milk.

Mr. Rooney

Because there is a higher yield.

Mr. Walsh

That is what we want.

Mr. Rooney

And you want fewer cows.

Mr. Madden

There was a decrease in the number of in-calf heifers and dairy cows. The dairy counties are located in the South. There is a scarcity of skilled agricultural workers there. I submit that the technique is very skilled and that when skilled agricultural workers leave the land it is not easy to replace them. If 130,000 of them have gone from the dairying industry in the few southern counties in which that industry is centred, does it not indicate that there is something radically wrong?

It is axiomatic that no country can continue to spend money indefinitely faster than the source of wealth can provide it. Our chief source of wealth is our agricultural industry. If you exhaust the source of wealth, then the source of supply must suffer. If the sources of supply and wealth suffer, would that not be most prejudicial to the country?

I have here a document issued by the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association, which contains an extract from a speech by the Taoiseach.Tattered as it is I have kept it, and I propose to quote one or two passages from it. I may have done so before, but there is an old hunting maxim: "Cry back is good hunting". Point No. 5 of Mr MacEntee's seven-point policy was that an increase in production for our exports, particularly agricultural, was urgently needed to reduce the trade deficit, but I am more impressed by the Taoiseach's remarks, which clearly demonstrate how essential the dairying industry is to the continued economic success of the country. If the preservation and continuity of the dairying industry hinges upon an increased supply of milk, as the Minister has told us, there is something radically wrong with the present state of affairs.

I was reading to-day a booklet which set out in respect of various herds in England—Ayrshires, Friesians, and so on—the milk yield, butter fat content and maximum supply per year. The yield was in the region of 800 to 900 gallons. The herd which came nearly lowest in the matter of production, of milk yield and butter fat content, was the Shorthorn. The Minister asked us for a solution. Let him listen to the Taoiseach who, on the Vote for his Department on 19th July, 1951, said:—

"The main aim of the economic policy was to utilise the natural resources of the country to the fullest extent."

No one will disagree with that, but the creamery suppliers in a comment on that statement say that no expansion of consequence in exports can come through cattle and sheep production, except with the certainty of further rural depopulation, with its adverse social effects. That is sound, is it not?

There is clear and unmistakable evidence that there is a necessity for an increase in the price of milk and for the Government to handle the matter as they ought to handle such a very important economic factor. For this reason, I give my support to this motion. A further comment the creamery suppliers make is that the only alternative is the development of substantial exports in dairy produce, anda condition precedent is a favourable adjustment of milk and butter prices in relation to cattle and sheep prices. That is a true economic and agricultural philosophy.

We must have an increase, but how can we get that increase when the dairying industry is rapidly declining? How is the Minister to increase the milk yield, which stands at about 400 gallons, to 900 gallons? Since the days of landlordism, there has been no observable constructive and progressive movement in the development of our agricultural industry. Our population is declining rapidly, whereas the population of smaller countries, with less fertility and enjoying less favourable atmospheric conditions, has increased, as has their wealth. These countries are an example of the scientific development of agriculture. It is a surprising fact that in June, 1949, the dairying counties of Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary and Cork afforded employment on the land to 128,183 persons, while the employment given by all other industries was 124,301.

Look at the position with regard to store cattle. I know the price they are making. It is very remunerative, but how is that end of the trade to be continued if the source of supply, the dairying industry, remains in the decadent state it is in? Dairying is in a very serious condition. The Minister spoke about lime and fertilisers being essential and the combination of these two ingredients would improve the quality of our grass and possibly increase the milk yield. The Minister should not take all the credit for the abnormal increase in milk last summer. Last winter was a very mild winter and we got one of the most beneficent spring and summer seasons that Providence could give and the Minister will not contradict me when I say that, so far, this winter has been like the month of June. A creamery manager told me that there was an increase of about 40,000 gallons of milk in his own creamery. He told me that was due, in the main, not to the application of fertilisers but to a kindly and beneficent Providence.

The dairying industry is in a bad state. The cost of production is highand the price of fertilisers is excessive. I use a lot of fertilisers myself and the price is prohibitive. A few nights ago I mentioned a factory built by a Dutch firm. I understand they produce fertilisers. The factory is in the County Wicklow. The Minister should do something in the way of subsidisation under that head if he wants to make the maximum use of agriculture. Whatever may be the price of butter the Minister should take whatever steps necessary to give the farmers the essentials to increase the production of milk. Of course, that would ultimately increase the price of butter.

Look at the plight of the dairy farmers for the past couple of years. Salt, which is an essential, has been increased by 69.8 per cent. Oil has increased by 16.7 per cent., testing of materials, 10.9 per cent., electric power, 25 per cent., cartage and carriage, 17.8 per cent., repairs, 24 per cent., machinery, 18.5 per cent., salaries and wages, 26.6 per cent. All that has happened since the end of 1951. To that has to be added the incidence of ever-increasing taxation. Taxation rates have increased. Anybody who has to pay considerable rates can see the gradual increase over a number of years. The cost of labour has gone up and the cost of machinery and replacements has gone up.

The Minister may tell me that in not voting for an increase one time I was actuated by political expediency rather than by agricultural economics, but my approach to this matter is a national one. Something must be done by this or the next Government. We all agree that agriculture is the basis of our whole economic set-up. If that industry continues to decline rapidly, some Government in the future will, in the words used by the Minister some minutes ago, have to approach the matter in a serious and realistic manner. I think one of the ways to do that would be to meet the motion tabled by Deputy Lehane and give the increase in the price of milk. That would encourage greater production and would provide more employment. Indeed, it might well help to preventanother 20,000 skilled agricultural workers leaving the land this year.

Mr. J.J. Collins

The motion on the Order Paper in the names of Deputies Lehane, Cogan and Finucane states:—

"That having regard to the greatly increased costs of milk production and in view of the fact that the findings of the costings commission may not be available for a considerable time, Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the price of milk to the producer should be reviewed and increased immediately."

I must start off by paying a well-deserved tribute to Deputy Lehane and also to Deputy Finucane as well as Deputy Cogan. I will explain exactly how the latter stands during the course of my speech.

Mr. Rooney

Did he send you up from the Library?

Mr. J.J. Collins

When Deputies Rooney and D.J. O'Sullivan speak in this House I let them have their say.

Mr. Rooney

Sorry.

Mr. J.J. Collins

These childish interruptions will not put me off my course.

Mr. Rooney

You said you were speaking for Deputy Cogan.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I have a great regard for the sincerity of Deputy Lehane in tabling this motion 12 months ago when the situation regarding the dairying industry was altogether different from what it is at the present moment. I also have regard—it dates further back—for Deputy Patrick Finucane of North Kerry because I do not think that those engaged in the dairying industry in Munster were ever made aware of the part he played behind closed doors during the period of the Coalition Government in helping to counteract the policy of the then Minister for Agriculture because of his action and his treatment of the dairying industry. I say that with full inside knowledge. It is on the milk issue and that alone that Deputy Patrick Finucane severedhis connection with the Clann na Talmhan Party.

I listened very carefully to the speeches made by the proposer and seconder of this motion and by the Deputies in the Fine Gael Benches who deem it well at this stage to support the motion, whether genuinely or not I do not know. My colleague from West Limerick made a speech on this issue on a well selected text. He said that the whole discussion should be based on the philosophy of increased production and that political dissertations and taunts across the floor of the House would not serve the matter we are about to discuss in any way.

I had hoped that he would have kept rigidly to the text and gospel which he outlined, but he rambled a bit further afield and endeavoured to argue that the dairying industry and the entire agricultural economy suffered very seriously since the advent of the present Government. He admitted that the effective and well-recognised solution for that industry was to encourage, by the proper use of lime and fertilisers, increased milk production. That is a sensible method, and it is quite correct. I will give an example in support of the point made by Deputy Madden.

Suppose a farmer supplies at the moment 100 gallons of milk daily to a creamery, say, in the County Limerick at the minimum price of 1/6. By a better method of husbandry and farming and by a liberal use of crushed lime now being made quite readily available at the highest subsidised price or by fertilisers he can increase his milk production by 25 per cent. at the very least. Therefore, that man can carry 125 gallons of milk daily to the creamery at the minimum guaranteed price of 1/6 and possibly at a higher price. Depending on the proper management and efficiency of that creamery, he could possibly get up to 1/7, 1/7½ or 1/8 a gallon with the same overhead costs. That can be done. It is one of the things we should all try to bring home forcibly to our dairy farmers.

It was strange to have to listen to some of the Fine Gael speakers who tried by subtle ways and means onselected points to cash in on the whole position. Deputy Madden, for instance, said that the condition of the dairying industry in Limerick, Cork and Kerry was never worse than it is at the moment. I would like to ask Deputy Madden did he think seriously over that statement before he made it and compare the dairying position in Limerick, Kerry and Cork of 1950 with the position to-day. In March, 1950, we had a motion such as this introduced by independent farmer Deputies, and I think we discussed it for at least a week. We all know exactly the line taken then by the Fine Gael members from West and East Limerick and other Munster dairying counties. They trooped into the Lobby under the leadership and direction of their Minister for Agriculture and they voted against that increase proposed in the motion of these independent Deputies.

We had the same line-up and the some backing from Fine Gael for the suggestion of the then Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Dillon, that our dairy farmers should accept 1/- a gallon for milk over a period of five years. That announcement by the then Minister was hotly and seriously challenged in every dairying county in Ireland. Deputy Dillon then went to Limerick, and it is in the records that he met in Limerick City representatives from every dairying area in County Limerick and told them that if they were not prepared to accept 1/- a gallon they could have a running jump at themselves.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

And they jumped in to vote for John Carew.

Mr. J.J. Collins

The question of what Limerick did in voting for John Carew or otherwise does not enter into this particular motion we are discussing. Since the Deputy has tried to introduce the question of by-elections into this issue, let me say that he might not be experienced enough in the political life of this country to realise that you have ups and downs in by-elections and that the success of a Party in a particular by-election depends solely on the results given in a previous general election. If you have any doubt in your mind as regardswhat the people of Limerick will do when they get their chance, I can assure you that they will give us what they always gave us since 1932—they will send four Deputies into Dáil Éireann to support the policy of Fianna Fáil.

I cannot understand why the Deputies on the Fine Gael Benches cannot be at least consistent, why they speak with divers tongues in various areas. I remember being in Dublin during the North-West Dublin by-election campaign and reading some of the placards which were demonstrated to the voters there and which read: "Fianna Fáil butter at 4/2 a lb.; the Fianna Fáil Government enriches the dairy farmers of Limerick." That was the attitude of Fine Gael in the Dublin North-West by-election campaign and they come in here to-night to cry and bemoan that the farmers of Limerick, Kerry, Cork, and Tipperary are not getting a sufficient price for their milk. They are pretending that they are sincerely and genuinely behind Deputies Finucane and Lehane. That, to my mind, is gross political dishonesty. In every walk of life, whether it be in our private capacity or in public life, we should at least have one thing and that is common decency founded on truth.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

And common sense.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I can see very little common sense, with all due respect to Deputy O'Sullivan, in the points he made on this motion. I expected something more valuable from a man who comes from a dairying area in North Cork.

Mr. Rooney

Is the Deputy spinning fairy tales about the placards? Is he not taking a big chance in that regard?

Mr. J.J. Collins

It is very seldom I speak in this House, but when I do I know what I am speaking about. If Deputy Rooney could have the same boast he could feel very happy about it. Deputy O'Sullivan went on to state that the killing of 147,000 calves in 1947 is responsible for some serious set-back in our agricultural economyat the moment. I do not think the Minister for Agriculture understood very clearly Deputy O'Sullivan when he made that point. I am sure the Minister for Agriculture thought that Deputy O'Sullivan was referring to the slaughter of the calves during the Blueshirt campaign because he mentioned that matter very often in the House.

Mr. Rooney

It is on the record.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I think Deputy O'Sullivan had in mind the number of calves slaughtered for veal in 1947.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

That is right.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Be that as it may, that was a very remunerative policy for the people engaged in the veal trade during that period. The figures at the moment—and you cannot beat the force of figures—show that in this year of 1953 we have an increase of 92,000 cattle; as against 1950 we have an increase this year of 72,000 sheep; as regards the pig industry, there is an increase of 132,000 as compared with the last year of the Coalition Government.

Mr. Rooney

Give us the 1947 figures.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

They are much more significant.

Mr. J.J. Collins

If we had, through the hand of God or by the inclemency of the weather, in the 1946-47 period lost 147,000 cattle it would not affect our agricultural economy at the moment, and if any of the Fine Gael Deputies doubt my figures they have a means of checking up. Our cattle population has increased by 92,000.

Deputy Madden went on to bemoan and bewail the losses and the decrease in dairy cattle in County Limerick. Deputy Madden is a well-established and respected auctioneer, especially in West Limerick, where he has conducted many valuable sales of dairy cattle. At any of those sales where he had been privileged to dispose of any dairy herds, I think those herds were almost 100 per cent. bought up by other farmers and that the loss of dairy cattle in County Limerick is notanything like as great as he tries to establish. It might mean that a certain man would go out of business and sell a herd of some 20 to 25, but that generally means that his next-door neighbour or his neighbours around have purchased three or four extra dairy cattle.

As the Minister mentioned a while ago, if there was something to support the point which Deputy O'Sullivan made as regards a recession or a decrease in our dairy cattle or in the point made by Deputy Madden, he could still prove—again with the force of figures behind him—that milk production has increased for last year. Deputy Rooney, in his own inimitable way, said we had better grass because we had better weather, which will show you exactly how Deputy Rooney generally misses the bus.

Mr. Rooney

The Minister admitted that.

Mr. J.J. Collins

You cannot have better grass if you are depending on the weather. You will have better grass if you have a more liberal use of fertilisers and, of course, you will have it for a longer period if you have fine weather. The Deputy should not miss that point. If you have a mild spring, you will have the grass much earlier than if you have a harsh spring. Deputy Madden said that we should not have dissertations here on politics or taunts by Deputies across the floor of the House. He did base his philosophy on increased production alone. I am prepared to support him to the extent of 100 per cent. on that. I believe that the Minister for Agriculture is going on the right lines by seeking to increase production. Increased production is the cure for all our economic ills, whether we are considering the agricultural or the industrial arm. Speaking from my experience of, and of my association with, the farmers in West Limerick, I am satisfied that they have come to realise that it is the only solution, and they are grateful to the present Minister and Government for placing at their disposal unlimited quantities of crushed limestone to be used generously on our lands. It is there, Ibelieve, that we will find the real solution for all our economic ills.

Mr. Rooney

The Dillon scheme.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Deputy Madden gave the House some quotations from statements made by the Taoiseach last year, I think he said. The Taoiseach was dealing generally with the economic position of the country, and Deputy Madden quoted some very sound advice which the Taoiseach gave on various aspects of our economy. Deputy Madden, I am sure, will agree that the dairying industry is of fundamental importance. The Deputy and myself will agree on that. We often agree to differ and we often do not agree at all but we do agree that the dairying industry is of fundamental importance, and that everything that is related to production, and the wealth of the country, rests on it.

I want to challenge Deputy Madden on a few points. When I refer to Deputy Madden, I know that I am referring to a man who belongs to the old school of politics, to the old, well learned and experienced school of politicians. I venture to think that there is no member of this House who could imitate, as well as the Deputy does, some of the great and notable speakers of the past, of such men, for example, as John Philpot Curran; but I cannot agree with the Deputy when he says that there has been a complete exodus of agricultural workers from the country.

Mr. Madden

Even if I were John Philpot Curran you would not agree with me on that.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I like to give credit where credit is due, and if I could believe that the Deputy was sincere in all the things he says I would be very pleased. Last week, when the Estimate for the Department for Local Government was before the House, Deputy Madden challenged the Minister on some points on his Estimate that possibly at the moment, are sub judice.The Deputy on that occasion referred to the Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Bill which has still to come before the House. This, perhaps, maynot have a very direct bearing on the motion we are discussing, but I am referring to it because Deputy Madden dealt with it in the course of his speech last week. I believe that the theory he advanced when referring to that Bill is a fallacy. He said it did not matter whether the amount of relief a farmer gets under that Bill is £13 or £17 because, he argued, how could any farmer afford to employ an agricultural worker at £4 a week if the only inducement offered to him is relief in his rates to the extent of £17 or £13 a year. That was the bald naked statement made by Deputy Madden.

I do not think that many farmers would agree with him. The Deputy's whole argument was, why should a farmer employ an agricultural worker who will cost him £4 a week if the amount of relief in rates set out in that Bill is the only enticement offered to him to do so? I want to say, most emphatically, that that is not the view of any dairy farmer in West Limerick. He knows that the agricultural worker, getting £4 a week will, in fact, be paying for himself when he gives an honest return for his wages.

The Deputy then went on to bemoan the flight, the exodus, of agricultural workers from the land. We hear a lot of that glib kind of talk from the benches opposite. It is employed for purely political purposes in an endeavour to score points against the Minister for Agriculture and other Ministers whenever an opportunity offers of arguing that there has been a reduction in employment in some sphere of our economic life. Are we sincere in what we say? If we want to keep the agricultural workers on the land, the only way to do that is by showing that we are prepared to give them a decent wage. I am speaking from my experience and consultations with farmers in the West Limerick area, an area in which there is a great density of population, where many people are living under difficult conditions on uneconomic holdings. These are farmers who made an effort to employ extra men in making drains on their land under section (A) of the land project scheme. They do their utmost to provide work for men in the spring-timeand in the saving of the harvest. I suggest that is the policy which should be applied generally to encourage the further employment of agricultural workers at a decent rate of wages, and that the compensatory value that is guaranteed to them under the Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Bill, whether it be £13 or £17, should not enter into the matter at all, because the more men a farmer employs the better return he will get both from his men and from his farm.

Mr. Davern

Did Deputy Rooney hear that?

Mr. J.J. Collins

I am afraid Deputy Rooney has a very poor conception of farming conditions as they apply in West Limerick, Kerry, Cork and Tipperary compared to his own experience in the County Dublin area. It had not been my intention to intervene at this early stage in the debate. I was hoping to hear some more of the Fine Gael speakers in support of this motion. I think that our people in Limerick, Cork, Tipperary and elsewhere should not be credited with having short memories. The Fine Gael Party are doing their utmost to marshal support for this motion from eloquent speakers on their benches. They are doing so just for political reasons to try and embarrass in some way or other the present Minister and Government. Later they will go to the cross-roads and to the chapel gates and say that they supported this motion in the name of Deputy Lehane, and that, while they did that, Fianna Fáil Deputies marched into the Division Lobby to vote against it. But mind you I know down in Limerick anyhow it did not take long for the farmers of Limerick to pull the teeth of such Fine Gael propaganda, and of all such Fine Gael speeches. In March, 1950, when the dairying industry was in a crippled condition and when some relief was needed and a motion was put down, I think, by Deputies O'Reilly, Cogan and Lehane—I think Deputy Lehane also figured in the motion at the time—it got the fullest support of the Fianna Fáil Party at that period.

Mr. Rooney

Deputy O'Reilly was kicked out.

Mr. J.J. Collins

The entire weight of the Fine Gael machine in that area put him out because he was the prime mover of that motion, and it was he who focussed attention on the serious position of dairying as it then existed, and exposed the Fine Gael humbug of that time. They made sure he would not come in here.

Deputy Finucane, too, did not get the credit he deserved. They may try to cover up their footsteps and their traces by attributing their defeat and the burst-up within their own ranks in the inter-Party Government in May, 1951, to Deputy Dr. Browne and the Health Bill, but there was something as important responsible for the burst-up of the then Coalition Government in May, 1951, as the Health Bill and Dr. Browne. It was the attitude of Deputy Finucane when he went to the Minister for Agriculture's office and told him that he was going to vote and, by his vote, help to throw the Fine Gael Party into the political wilderness if they were not prepared to give increased prices to the dairy farmers of Munster. After a severe tussle within their own ranks, and the dangling of the bait of 1/- per gallon for five years, and after Deputy Rooney said he supported that because it was guaranteed for five years——

Mr. Rooney

Guaranteed minimum.

Mr. Barry

On a point of order, Deputy Collins is not speaking in accordance with the way he prefaced his remarks at the start of this discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I think the Deputy was not in the House when I started off. I quoted the philosophy as announced by your colleague, Deputy Madden and the text on which he said he would make his speech. That was that the solution to the stability of the dairying industry could be achieved by increased production. If Deputy Madden had kept himself solely to that particular text I would probably follow on similar lines.

Mr. Barry

Two wrongs never make a right.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Everybody knows —especially Deputy Barry—that when a Deputy starts off with very pious platitudes like that and does not stick rigidly to them and, when he turns to the right and to the left, and makes other little diversions and brings in things which are not accurate and introduces matters with no direct relevance to the issue we are discussing, surely my right is not denied to analyse all those points made by one of Deputy Barry's colleagues with whom I am not in entire agreement?

I know this much about Deputy Barry. It seems to be characteristic of some of the Cork Deputies that they are inclined to be a bit impetuous——

Mr. Barry

Rebel Cork.

Mr. J.J. Collins

——and they often say things that do not come to pass. I remember reading a very important pronouncement made by Deputy Barry that, "When Barry goes in, Dev goes out."

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

He headed the poll all the same.

Mr. J.J. Collins

But Barry got in and Dev was never stronger than he is at the moment. That was a bit of impetuosity on the part of a very nice gentleman—indeed I can say that much about Deputy Barry. I do not know how I will get a chance of doing a little parsing and analysing with Deputy O'Sullivan. I have a great sympathy and a kind of admiration for his colleague, Deputy Rooney, because I think he is often tarred with the kind of brush he does not deserve at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be getting away from the motion.

Mr. J.J. Collins

With all due respect to your ruling, when a Deputy on the opposite side stands up and says that I am conducting my little contribution to this debate on lines which I did not suggest at the start, I suppose I am entitled to be somewhat diverted. I am now going back to speak as closely and rigidly as I can to the motion which we were discussing.

Mr. Davern

Despite Deputy Rooney's interjections.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Both Deputy O'Sullivan and Deputy Madden have spoken to this motion. Even Deputy Lehane made some point—I was inclined to forget it—that I was in entire agreement with. He went on to state —very honestly I thought—that this motion was tabled twelve months ago and did not come up for discussion and in the meantime, notwithstanding increased prices given for milk, the overhead costs of production had increased to the farmers. He did not mention salt and oil and petrol and other things that Deputy Madden mentioned as regards increases that have taken place in the running of creameries. But Deputy Lehane went on to make other points in support of matters which he said were adversely affecting the cost of production. He spoke about many things, but I think the main point he made was the cost of fertilisers.

I would like to remind Deputy Lehane and other Deputies that prior to the putting down of this motion by Deputy Lehane and others in October or November or December of 1952, we had not on record that the same amount of crushed limestone was available to—and if available was used by —the farmers of that period.

Since December, 1952, and all through the spring of 1953, and subsequently, the increased tonnage of ground limestone made available to and bought by the farming community for use on the land was something like 500 per cent. more than was used in the period that Deputy Lehane had under review when he introduced this motion. Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned that the reduction of the grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the proposed change in the method of the agricultural relief grant to the various councils would have a very serious effect on the farmers, especially those in the dairying industry. But the Minister for Agriculture has clearly demonstrated and proved that the increased price he allowed for butter last year, and that, of course, is the medium through and thecriterion by which the price of milk can be fixed, of 4/2 per lb., brought to the dairying farmers the remarkable sum of £1,500,000. Deputy O'Sullivan lost sight of that fact and proceeded to bemoan some serious losses suffered because the grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act have been reduced to the local councils in the respective counties.

I do not want to introduce the Local Authorities (Works) Act into this debate. As a member of the Limerick County Council I have studied this matter very closely and while I have much to say in relation to the value and utility of works carried out under that Act in County Limerick I have a good deal of censure and adverse comment to make on some of the schemes where the vast amount of money spent gave no return and had no utility value whatsoever. Deputy O'Sullivan spoke of water stagnation and so forth being responsible for causing diseases in cattle. I do not know exactly how the farmers in North Cork come out in that matter but before we in Limerick ever received any grants from the Local Authorities (Works) Act, or from any Department of State, I can say that the farmers in West Limerick would never have allowed such water stagnation in or near their premises or pastures as would have interfered in any way with their cattle. I believe that because Deputy O'Sullivan was simply picking any rod he could lay his hands on to belabour the Minister for Agriculture in relation to milk prices such matters as the reduction of the grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the proposed change in the grants under the Agricultural (Relief of Rates) Act were introduced into this debate. I am perfectly satisfied that I am expressing the convictions and views of at least 95 per cent. of the farmers in County Limerick.

Mr. Rooney

Five per cent. of them did not vote for the Deputy.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

They all do.

Mr. J.J. Collins

The Deputy asked me why I did not say 100 per cent., and he is entitled to an answer. When I do not say 100 per cent. and quotea figure of 95 per cent. instead I am not losing sight of the fact that we have a certain percentage of graziers in County Limerick who possibly do not indulge in dairying to any extent. Now I am talking for the dairy farmers, the working farmers. They are very pleased with conditions at the present time in relation to the price of milk. Since the Minister authorised the increase in the price of butter by 4d. to ensure the farmers would be paid a minimum of 1/6 per gallon for their milk, I have met many of these farmers, some of them of different political affiliations from my own, and the only fear they have at the moment is that the price of milk might be reduced. They are satisfied with the average present price prevailing and operating. Nearly all the County Limerick farmers during the lactation period got as much as 1/7½ and in some cases 1/8 per gallon for their milk. These men are hard-headed, sensible men, sound businessmen in their own respective callings and they are satisfied to work and take full advantage of the schemes the Minister has made available for them, especially the crushed limestone scheme which he initiated and which he and his Government intend to expand until, as the Taoiseach said, the full lime requirements of the land are provided.

Deputy Madden stated that we hadnot increased the export of our agricultural products during the last 18 months. I do not know what papers Deputy Madden reads, but any sensible man who keeps himself in touch with the economic development of this country must readily admit that our agricultural exports increased more than they have ever done in the past over the last 12 or 15 months.

Mr. Rooney

More power, Dillon!

Mr. J.J. Collins

Deputy Rooney and some of his colleagues in the Fine Gael Benches try to convince themselves and mislead the people in relation to the high prices cattle are fetching at the moment. With their tongues in their cheeks they tell us those high prices are due to the trade agreement that their Minister for Agriculture made in 1948.

Mr. Rooney

Quite right.

Mr. J.J. Collins

They often try to tell a white lie and they often sugar coat many a pill hoping an unwary and unsuspecting electorate will swallow it.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m., until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9th December, 1953.