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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 1953

Vol. 143 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

In my opening remarks on Thursday last I referred to the fact that the acreage under forestry had increased since Fianna Fáil returned to office. The former Minister for Lands, Deputy Blowick, in the course of several interruptions appeared to doubt my statement and was quite definite that what I was saying was not in accordance with the facts. I maintain that Deputy Blowick was altogether wrong; I checked my figures again and I would like to educate Deputy Blowick on them. I think he will agree with me that during his term of office things were not as happy as he stated they were last Thursday. In 1950 there were 7,400 acres planted; in 1951 there were 9,400 acres; in 1952 there were 15,000 acres and in 1953, 12,500. At the end of three years we will have planted 40,000 acres against 24,500 during Deputy Blowick's term as Minister for Lands.

Take the question of employment in forestry. From my investigation over the week-end I found that at the end of November, 1951, there were 2,851 people employed in forestry and at the end of November, 1952, we had 3,882. Therefore, Deputy Blowick was incorrect in stating that my figures were not in accordance with the facts. These are figures that are not to be laughed at and I am satisfied that theyrepresent progress in forestry. One would expect from a former Minister for Lands that with his experience he would come in here with his facts correct. I am sure he is pleased to see that Fianna Fáil are proceeding with forestry work and giving good employment. There is no reason for the gloom he mentioned in this connection.

The same position is revealed in capital development. There are more houses, schools and hospitals being erected; there are new power stations all using home resources against the two stations erected during the Coalition time which, incidentally, were using imported fuel. Our turf production has increased threefold and our maritime services have been extended. I do not see, therefore, how Deputies on the opposite side can say things have been held up all over the State. Their allegation that gloom and misery exist is completely out of place.

As far as we in Fianna Fáil are concerned we will adhere to the policy set forth on the foundation of our Party in 1926, that is, the development to the full of Ireland's natural resources for the benefit of the Irish people. We have never deviated from that policy despite bitter opposition down through the years and, I can assure Deputies opposite, we never will. The people outside know we did our best to develop our natural resources and will continue on those lines as long as we are in office.

I would like to refer to the cost of central and local government administration, which is rather high at the moment. I have not got the exact figures but when you read of the large numbers of civil servants and local government employees you realise that it costs a great deal to run this country. I would appeal to the Taoiseach to see that there is constant supervision with a view to the reduction of administrative costs. I am often surprised in regard to the management of some of the institutions under local authorities. I have not a great deal of experience in public life but from my short term in that capacity I am satisfied thatgreater care should be taken by the local authorities to see that these institutions are carefully managed. One case came to my notice recently where a board of one institution decided to convert an old building into a visiting hall and an occupational therapy department. In March last, the architect to that board was asked to give an estimate of the cost. He came before the board and said that a great deal of consideration had been given to it and that it would cost £25,000. The matter came up again in October and the architect informed the board it would cost £34,000. There may be an explanation for that, but it does seem that there is something not altogether correct in that procedure.

The Deputy is dealing with questions of administration. They do not arise on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

It is a question of supervision. This is the people's money and comes under the question of proper administration.

It is not relevant on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

I understand that this particular case is under investigation. I do feel that civil servants and local government officials should spend public money as carefully as if it was their own money.

As a member of the Dublin Corporation Special Works Committee I would like to thank the Taoiseach personally for the great interest he has taken recently in our problems. He has met us on several occasions and I am sure other members of the committee who are members of the different Parties will agree that he was fully aware of our difficulties and gave us his wholehearted co-operation. In connection with the £1.6 million which the Corporation has been informed is available for a five-year plan for Dublin road improvement there is the question of acquisition. When it goes to the Department of Local Government it takes quite a long time to geta decision. We want to spend that money in five years and I must say that, in fairness to the Government, they are pressing us to spend it and to give employment. The problem of acquisition in relation to road widening is not an easy one to solve. I am sure the Taoiseach would agree that in one case the 15 months' delay which occurred from the date of the sworo inquiry relating to acquisition was too long. We are anxious to have this work done and I think we should have a little more speedy attention from the Department of Local Government. I must say in recent months they have been most helpful, and even yesterday they sanctioned one scheme right away. I would ask the Taoiseach to deal with this matter of acquisition so that the work can be proceeded with rapidly.

I am sure we are all anxious to see more of our people in employment. We would like to see better wages, better conditions of employment and a better standard of living all round. I am satisfied there is no easy remedy for our problems in this connection. We must aim at a big increase in production in agriculture and in industry which will mean more employment. All that would also mean an increase in earnings which would go back into industry. I would say that our aim should be to have a constant increasing pool of production because it is the only way to make more employment available for our people.

It is seldom that the House hears a city Deputy speak on agriculture. I, as a city Deputy, would like to see the present increase in agricultural production continued to a greater degree, and to see a better use made of the land by the utilisation of more fertilisers. That would mean that we would have greater milk yields and that the people of Dublin would be able to get milk at a reasonable price. I am all for the farmer getting a good price for what he produces, so that he will be in a position to give more employment and to pay good wages. I am told that, by the greater use of fertilisers, it would be possible to improve the fertility of the land, thusmaking it possible to grow more food without adding a great deal to the costs of production. I would appeal to the farmers to do more in that way, to produce more food, so that it may be possible to make it slightly cheaper than it is for the people in our cities.

There is one matter that I would like the Government to bear in mind, particularly if there is any suggestion of introducing legislation to deal with apprentices. I take an interest in some of the orphanages in our city. I am told that those in charge of these institutions find great difficulty in placing young boys in a trade when they leave an institution.

The Chair cannot see how the question of apprentices can be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate. It is a matter that would be more relevant on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

With all respect, I listened to a great many things being discussed on the Estimate. Education and other matters were discussed.

The Deputy is going into details. Education can be mentioned, but not discussed in detail.

Since this is a form of education, surely the question of education can be discussed.

The Deputy can discuss in a broad, general way the policy of the Government on education, but he must leave the details for some other occasion.

When these young boys leave these schools, after spending two years at a trade, they find that they cannot continue to get employment at their trade due to a trade union bar on apprentices. I think that is a matter which should be taken into account by the Government.

There is one final point I want to make, and that is on the question of State aid for sport, or of some form of aid for sport. I have taken a keen interest in the sports schemes that arein operation in many European countries. I can tell the House that in every country in Europe, except England and Ireland, financial aid, in some form, is given to help sport and athletics. It will be generally agreed that the lack of funds in Ireland is the greatest hold-up that we have, so far as athletics and provision for the physical well-being of our young people are concerned. I know that a memorandum was submitted to the Government on this, and I am again asking that it should be given every consideration. It asked that some form of financial help be given to athletics, thereby helping the physical well-being of our people.

The suggestion was made that football pools should be more or less devoted to helping sport. I do not see a great deal of objection to that. People interested in sport realise the financial difficulties there are at the moment regarding the many calls that are being made on the Exchequer, and that to make any great demand on the Exchequer in this matter would not be right. I feel, however, that the money which is leaving the country through football pools should be put back into sport here. It is quite possible that there would be objection to that from the Irish sweepstakes, but I do not think that, from the people generally, there would be any great opposition.

We are all anxious to see the physical well-being of our people improved. I do not see how we can do that under present conditions because, as I have already pointed out, we are far behind many other countries as regards what we are doing in that respect. I do not think that this scheme of football pools for sport is something to be laughed at. Rather it should be given serious consideration.

People may say that there are more pressing things at the moment. I am not prepared to agree with that because, after all, the health of our young people and their physical well-being is of paramount importance. If they are strong and healthy, then we will not have so many demands being made on our hospitals and health services generally. Everything possible should be done to have our youngpeople properly trained and developed with reasonable recreational facilities provided for them. That is something at which we should aim in this country. If, for example, we were able to obtain money, as I have suggested, from these football pools, it would help us to provide swimming baths. As I said, when speaking on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, the swimming baths in Dublin are a disgrace. The same applies to the country as a whole. We are far behind many other countries in these respects. This money for football pools is going out of the country and, as I have suggested, it should be used to help sport and athletics.

The opportunity which this Estimate affords of examining the economic position of the country occurs at a time when there are many indications, despite the fact that Ministers have expressed views emphasising that conditions have improved, that there are still a great number of problems calling for solution, and that many of the difficulties which have been referred to here in recent months have been aggravated by Government policy. Just a little over two years ago, when the Government initiated, in a series of speeches, an economic policy which was to be operated in contrast to that which had been operated by the inter-Party Government, many statements were made to the effect that the country was facing a crisis. Subsequently, that phrase was modified to the extent that if it had not reached a crisis, it was approximating to conditions bordering on a crisis.

The Minister for Finance initiated an economic policy which was designed to reduce imports in order to bring the balance of payments into line. It is well that we should examine what has happened in the last two or two and a half years since that policy was initiated, and compare the results with the conditions which obtained during the period when the policy of the inter-Party Government was being operated. I want, in particular, to relate my remarks to two important aspects ofour economic life. When the Minister for Finance initiated that policy, the Department of Finance published, in the autumn of 1951, a White Paper which gave the trade figures for the first nine months of 1951. It compared the substantial rise in imports, during the first nine months of that year, with the figures for the year 1950. Generally the trend of that paper was expressed in a statement which appeared in paragraph 17 in which it said that "again, the current output figures for our stable exports rule out the possibility of any large increase in the volume of exports in the near future to bridge the gap."

Subsequently, in April, 1952, the Minister for Finance, speaking in the House, and reported at column 1123, Volume 130 of the Official Debates of April 2nd, said:—

"While we may expect some increase in export prices, the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting upon any material increase in the quantity exported."

These two statements, taken together, merely reiterated earlier expressions of policy enunciated by the Minister for Finance and followed by other Ministers. The effect of these statements and the prognostications for the future can now be examined.

During this year The Statistpublished an issue devoted exclusively to circumstances in Ireland, and the various articles written in that deal with different aspects of our economic policy. I would draw the attention of Deputies to an article by the Irish Ambassador in London on page six in which he said:—

"The increase of £20,000,000 in the volume of Irish exports and reexports in 1952 was achieved mainly by increased shipments of foodstuffs (£15,500,000), live cattle (£1,500,000), and other live animals (£1,000,000). Almost all these additional exports were exported to Britain or the Six Counties. The value of goods sold in other markets was only £1.1 million out of the total of £20,000,000. In consequence the proportion of Irishexports marketed in Britain and the Six Counties rose from 84.1 per cent. in 1951 to 86.2 per cent. in 1952."

The significant factor from these figures is that there was a substantial rise in the value of the commodities exported which to a considerable extent included live stock and livestock products. If we go further and examine the trade returns for this year which were recently circulated giving figures for some commodities up to September and others up to last month, they show that the total imports, comparing June of this year with June of last year, had increased from £11.45 million in June, 1952, to £14.46 million in June, 1953: from £12.62 million in July, 1952, to £15.61 million in July, 1953; from £9.88 million in August, 1952, to £13.07 million in August, 1953; from £11.89 million in September, 1952, to £13.40 million in September, 1953; from £15.05 million in October, 1952, to £18.44 million in October, 1953.

Then if you compare on the one hand the domestic exports and remember that the White Paper which was published at the end of 1951 expressed the view to which I have referred earlier, that the current output figures rule out the possibility of any large increase in the volume of exports in the near future to bridge the gap; and subsequently the Minister for Finance speaking in the House said that while we might expect some increase in export prices the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting on any material increase in the quantity exported.

The domestic export figures for this year compared with last year are: June, 1952, £8.13 million; June, 1953, £9.18 million; July, 1952, £7.88 million; July, 1953, £9.86 million; August, 1952, £8.50 million; August, 1953, £9.57 million; September, 1952, £9.43 million; September, 1953, £11.27 million; October, 1952, £9.06 million; October, 1953, £10.40 million.

It is, I think, fair to assume that by the end of the year the value of our total exports will exceed the £100,000,000 mark. That situation, I believe, has been brought aboutprimarily because of two factors-one, we initiated by means of various trade agreements but especially by means of the 1948 Trade Agreement with Britain guaranteed prices for a variety of agricultural produce, and in the absence of guaranteed prices a link with the prices being paid for Irish produce which linked the price here to the price paid in Britain.

Side by side with that the Department of Agriculture initiated in 1949 a scheme to offset the heavy calf mortality. That was one of a number of schemes but the figures show that the number of calves that died each year over a long number of years, approximately 80,000 per annum, declined in the last three or four years from that figure to about 10,000. These were calves dying from different diseases or from slaughter. At any rate the effect was to secure for the Irish farmers a larger number of live stock available for sale and the results show, I think, on any conservative estimate that allowing these animals to mature as the bulk of them would mature to three year olds and then allowing them to be sold at what I consider to be a conservatively estimated selling price of £50 each would bring in about £3,500,000. I do not think anyone can repudiate the fact that a reduction in the calf mortality and the figures I have mentioned on the basis of present-day prices are not excessive. If anything they may fall on the conservative side. The main point, however, is that when the present Minister for Finance initiated the altered policy in the autumn of that year, he expressed the view and it was fortified by the White Paper published by his Department, that any substantial increase in exports was not to be expected.

The results in the first few months of this year, and especially in the second half of the year, demonstrate that that assumption was wrong, that the remedies were wrong and that they had had their worst effect not so much on the agriculturists as on the urban and town dwellers. Coupled with that policy was an indication that many projects which were being financed during the period of the inter-PartyGovernment were regarded as unsound. No specific items were catalogued but the view was expressed in the report of the Central Bank that efforts should be made to curtail consumption and that credit should only be provided on projects which would give a worth-while economic return.

The result of all these speeches, the atmosphere created, the hints if not the expressed directions given, resulted in a reduction in the amount of credit and a restriction in the credit being provided. That caused a substantial slump in many businesses. In particular it caused a slump in building and construction work. In the Budget produced by the Minister for Finance in April, 1952, subsidies were either substantially reduced or abolished altogether in respect of many essential foodstuffs. The effect of that reduction or abolition meant a rise in the cost of living in the last two years of as much as 14 per cent. It has been asserted that wages and salaries have increased proportionately with the rise in the cost of living. Is it possible to claim that the increase in wages and salaries to any category of workers or persons employed in gainful occupations has approximated to 14 per cent. in the last two or two and a half years?

Although since the end of 1951, and certainly since the first half of 1952 right down to the present day, import prices have shown substantial reductions, the cost of living in the first six months of the year has risen higher than the cost of living in many other European countries. Recently I referred here to a publication submitted by O.E.E.C. to the Council of Europe. At page 12 of that publication the various member countries of the Council of Europe are listed and, whatever indices are used, it is shown in that table that the cost of living in the first six months of 1953 has gone up by +9. The two countries nearest to us referred to in the report are Norway and Britain and the increase in respect of each of those is only +4. Only one other country, Greece, which is somewhat remote from us, increased by +5. Of all themember countries mentioned in the publication the cost of living had risen more in this country during the first six months of this year than it had in any other member country. That publication merely tabulated these statistics and no doubt they were prepared on the basis of information supplied by the member countries.

That significant fact indicates the extent to which the cost of living is pressing heavily on all sections of our community. Although import prices in the last 18 months, indeed almost two years, have shown a tendency to fall it is pointed out on page 12 of the report of the Central Bank that in spite of the significant drop in import prices wholesale prices, which in 1952, continued to rise, tended to oscillate during the first half of 1953 around a level 1 per cent. higher than for the first six months of 1952.

Our own cost-of-living index figure increased by one point between mid-August, 1952, and mid-February, 1953, and by a further three points to mid-May of this year. There was a decline of one point in mid-August of this year. These economic indices demonstrate the effect of the rise in the cost of living on every category of persons throughout the State. Probably the effects are more severe on the urban and town dwellers than they are on those in the rural areas. In the city, particularly in the City of Dublin, there has been at the same time a substantial increase in the numbers registering at the unemployment exchanges. In recent months the numbers have tended to rise again. The published figures show that there was a drop in the numbers employed in local authority housing from 13,000 odd in 1950 to just over 7,000 in this year. That includes skilled and unskilled workers. I have repeatedly referred to the fact that, although the indications are that the rural housing problem is approaching manageable proportions, the same cannot be said of Dublin, Dún Laoghaire or any of the urban areas. While facilities are available to local authorities, what is the experience of private builders?

Last year when the national loanfor £20,000,000 was floated a substantial rise in the rate of interest charged under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts took effect and the result of that may be gauged from the repercussions on those availing of the facilities provided by these Acts. It is estimated that the rise from 3¼ per cent. to 5¼ or 5½ per cent., as the case may be, has increased the interest charges by anything from 10/- to 12/6 per week. On the assumption that it is 10/- per week in respect of an individual availing of the facilities provided by the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts it represents a sum of £26 per year. Allowing for the fact that many of these people are entitled to a remission of rates over a certain period, there is still an average rise in rates this year according to the figures given by the Minister here recently of 2/6 in the £. That represents the average rise in rates throughout the country. It is anticipated that the Health Act next year will put an increase of 2/- in the £ on rates throughout the country. That is a conservative estimate, since account is not taken of any other rise that may take effect next year as a result of that measure.

The added burdens on all sections of the community and especially on the ratepayers, particularly those who are buying or building houses for themselves under the facilities afforded, are severe to the extent that many Deputies familiar with the problems of these people are aware of the fact that great numbers of them have been obliged to dispose of their houses because they find the charges imposed upon them beyond their capacity to pay and beyond the commitments they originally undertook to meet, indeed, beyond what they anticipated they would be expected to meet in the immediate future. The Central Bank refers to this matter at page 19:—

"From particulars recorded concerning the extent to which the advances of building societies relate to houses about to be occupied for the first time, that is, newly built houses, and to houses which have previously been occupied it appearsthat out of total advances of £1,652,084 made in 1952 such particulars are available at the date of this report regarding advances of £1,274,547. Of the latter figure £361,864 or 28 per cent. relates to new houses and £912,683 or 72 per cent. to other houses. The corresponding figures in 1951 were 59 per cent. and 41 per cent. respectively."

In other words, of the money advanced in 1952 only 28 per cent. related to new houses and the corresponding percentage for 1951 was 59 per cent. and 41 per cent. as against 28 per cent. and 52 per cent. This matter has been the subject of comment by many people, especially at meetings of representatives of organisations who look after the interests of persons who are anxious to avail of these facilities.

On many occasions I have referred to the fact that these people are people who should be encouraged, people who have demonstrated thrift and initiative, who are commonly referred to as the white collar workers. They are people who, because of their initiative and the efforts they make, deserve to be encouraged rather than hindered, people who are not already catered for by local authorities' housing schemes or other housing schemes and who are unable out of their own resources to meet the cost of providing homes for themselves and their families but who are prepared to build or buy houses through the facilities afforded under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. The effect of the rise in the interest rate on these people has been in many instances catastrophic.

Recently, the Fair Trade Commission held an inquiry into the cost of building materials. One of the persons who gave evidence before them was Mr. Norman T. Bailey, who said that he was a building contractor since 1927. He referred to a number of matters. He said, as reported in the daily papers of 8th December:—

"The slump in house-building began about two years ago, and was due to the tying-up of credit, and the effect of that became apparent in the industry about 18 months ago."

He referred to a number of detailedmatters, the price of cement, steel bars and soft wood.

Mr. J.B. Colbert, in an article in the Statiston “Irish banks and Irish general credit facilities with some suggestions for possible improvements,” referred to this matter of housing finance. At page 92, paragraph 6, he said:—

"Further to the question of house purchase finance, there now exists an unfortunate situation brought about by the fact that the Government mistimed a national loan issue, which was made last year (September) at one of the outstanding peak periods of the long-term interest rate for more than a century. The issue was for £20,000,000 in 5 per cent. stock at par (with option to redeem in 1962). Many competent judges felt that an issue for such a large amount should have waited for the inevitable fall in the long-term interest rate, meanwhile raising essential immediate requirements by means of short-dated Exchequer Bills. The repercussions were far-reaching, not the least serious being in the realm of borrowings by local authorities and, consequently, in house purchase finance."

These people, from different angles, have expressed concern and have given vent to their views on this matter.

Although the last loan was floated at somewhat more advantageous terms— 4¾ per cent.—no reduction has been applied in respect of issues under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. In view of the long-term commitments and the extent to which State capital is invested in housing, both directly through local authorities and indirectly under these schemes, the interest rate should be averaged out. Persons who are adversely affected, as everybody who either built or purchased a house since 6th October of last year has been, is obliged to pay the higher interest rate. Although that is the situation the Minister for Industry and Commerce made a speech recently at the Insurance Institute, where he said, as reported in the Irish Independentof 8th December:—

"They were still a long way from the completion of the housing drive but it was not too soon to begin thinking about other beneficial activities to which the manpower and finance now directed to housing could be put.

In connection with this the Government had decided to set up a national development fund, a Bill concerning which would shortly be considered by the Dáil."

That is the greatest piece of window-dressing that has been put across in recent months. Local Loans, the Road Fund and the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Fund are all in need of more finance. The Government, without any additional legislation, without any additional appropriations, except to make the money available, can devote money to these funds which, not merely would give employment, but would alleviate some of the hardship on many sections of the community. In order to delude the people, a national development fund has to be set up and this year, according to the Estimate circulated, a sum of £5,000,000 will be devoted to it. Straightway, by means of a Supplementary Estimate, the Government could devote an adequate sum to the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Fund at the old level of interest. It could appropriate—apparently it is going to appropriate on the eve of by-elections —a sum of £1,500,000 to the Road Fund, including, as the Minister said, urban areas. By supplementing the existing avenues of public expenditure rather than an elaborate window-dressing proposal of new legislation, there could be some alleviation of the hardship on many sections of the community.

In the present situation in regard to housing, we have heard of the Government's proposal to embark on a gigantic project for Dublin Castle. Nobody has been able to get a firm estimate of the cost of the proposed scheme. Initially, when the scheme was mentioned, various figures were referred to. When the first survey was made it was estimated, at the prevailing price levels, that the figure would be in the regionof £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. Subsequently, when the then Minister for Finance got an estimate, it appeared that the figure would be substantially increased. Whatever the figure may be, we believe in putting first things first. There are still large numbers of people in Dublin, Dún Laoghaire, Bray and other urban areas, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Dundalk, Drogheda, in all the bigger towns, anxious to avail of the facilities under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. There are many people, particularly in the larger cities and towns, awaiting housing by the local authority. If there is need to absorb people who are on the unemployment register by new schemes, then the first charge on the reserves of this nation should be people in bad houses and insanitary dwellings. The local authorities in the larger cities and towns are still overburdened with the problem. If money is going to be spent on buildings, why not spend it on providing houses rather than on building new Government offices? It is a strange mentality which suggests that civil servants are not properly accommodated but refuses to give them the full award which was made by the arbitration board last year recommending an increase in salary. We are solicitous of their accommodation but we are not solicitous about giving them the full share of the national income which the Civil Service Arbitration Board expressed that they were entitled to.

I do suggest that immediately there is a substantial improvement in our economic affairs, a substantial contribution would be needed by all those people in the community who have been harder pressed, perhaps, than any other section, the white collar workers, by the rising cost of living, by the rise in rates, by the substantial increase in taxation, by the Budget of last year maintained by the Budget of this year. Their circumstances are such that they are pressed between the upper and the lower millstone. Those people could have their circumstances improved, at any rate, by devoting to the already well-known channels through which it is possible to assist them portion of this fund which apparently will be got from the surplusavailable in this year's revenue. It is indeed significant that the proposed sum of £5,000,000 approximates to the revenue returns as available up to the present, which shows that there is available, comparing this year with last year, an increase of approximately £5,000,000. However, whatever way it is proposed to spend it, whether it is on relief schemes or on minor schemes, whatever the schemes, there are worth-while schemes available to which it could be devoted if the Government took the decision to spend it that way rather than to operate a scheme which is apparently a device to cloak the fact that there is that substantial rise in the revenue and apparently a device to suggest that something is being done that was not done before.

The various statements made by builders, by financial experts, by all sections conversant with our problems, indicate that there has been a very severe slump and that in some trades the slump still persists, notably in building, though in some it has eased off. It is significant that only in recent weeks the Minister for Lands, deputising for the Minister for Finance, went to the bankers and said that the Government was to seek further capital from the banks in order to avoid curtailing or stopping works of national development. He went on to say: "It seems legitimate, therefore, to expect as time goes on an enlargement of the banks' portfolios of Irish Government and municipal securities. In view of the present balance between savings and investments and other factors making for financial stability no harm, but rather good, will come from a reasonable extension of credit facilities by the banks to the Government."

I ask Deputies to ponder on that and to reflect the similarity of the view expressed by the Minister with that expressed here some years ago by the present Tánaiste when he said that the public would have to be persuaded that it was in their interests that they gave 5/- or 6/- or 6/6 to the Government and allowed them to do the spending for them rather than that they would spend it themselves. We believe in allowing people to spend the moneythat they have, in so far as it is possible to do so, in whatever way they regard as in their best interests and in the interests of themselves and those whom they are obliged to support. I believe that this statement by the Minister for Lands indicates some relaxation of the credit restriction which has already played such havoc in the building industry, meant a drop in the numbers employed on all categories of building and construction work, meant very considerable hardship, meant loss and misery for a great number of our people, meant that very large numbers of them who were formerly gainfully employed here have been obliged to emigrate. If it means a change of view, a change of outlook, a change of policy, then we welcome it, but we will await tangible evidence of the results before expressing any special conclusion.

In the points I wish to draw attention to, I will be as brief as I possibly can. First of all, one member of the Government Party already stated during the course of this debate that they wanted to see our country and people prosperous and that there was an obligation on the local authorities to put to work, with the assistance of the Government, as many men as possible. Naturally, we all agree with these words, but while every member of the House irrespective of Party is in favour of seeing our people prosperous, the problem is in what way we are going to tackle it or how we can achieve the results, which are, after all, of vital importance. We want to see what is the best way in which we can achieve these results.

While this member of the Government Party laid stress on the importance of local authorities providing work with the assistance of the Government, yet to a certain degree we ponder there and, perhaps, we may be inclined to differ somewhat, because while members have spoken of relief schemes, members of the Government have not termed the work as such. Whether we like it or not, the difficulty we in the Labour Party can see is that very much of the work which may be giventhrough local authorities at this stage or this period of the year is more or less of a minor character. It is correct, of course, to say that we want to see if possible an expanding programme as regards road and bridge building, but in addition I believe that if we are to face the huge problem of so many thousands of unemployed and the even greater problem of keeping in employment those who are already working, it is not sufficient to say that with the active co-operation of local authorities everything is going to be well.

I remember particularly a special occasion here when the Government introduced a Bill which they considered was of vital importance to future progress in our country, yet, notwithstanding the points we raised and brought to the attention of the Government speakers at the time, this Bill which has since been passed into law relating to undeveloped areas, unfortunately did not go far enough in the view of some of us who are from day to day faced with the problem of not just undeveloped areas but of what in our opinion are equally bad, and those are distressed areas. It is fantastic to suggest that in those undeveloped and distressed areas, by the mere active co-operation of local authorities, such a stage is going to be brought about that we are then going to face an era of prosperity for the people living there.

One particular district in which there is grave unemployment at the present time—I want to assure the House that I am not picking out any special items for the particular purpose of painting a gloomy picture—is the Cork Harbour area, an area in which the Government themselves have actively co-operated, in so far as the investment of money is concerned, in an effort to promote employment. It is a calamity that at this particular period of the year unemployment is rife there. From the information available, it would appear that within the next few days the situation will be even worse owing to lack of work in the local dockyard. I shall not go into that matter further, except to say that the over-all picture is such that it demands the active co-operation, not just of the local authorities, but of theGovernment and of the Taoiseach as head of the Government, to see that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. These mistakes of the past must enlighten us to a degree and we should be prepared to face the future, determined to break away from a policy where weakness has been shown through lack of initiative, not by the local authorities, but by the Government itself.

Speakers on this Estimate have drawn special attention to agriculture. We all appreciate, we must appreciate, that agriculture is the keynote to our whole economy. There is no use in saying that we can make progress by concentrating on other forms of industry and at the same time not alone neglecting agriculture but just leaving it as it is, leaving the agricultural community to fend for themselves, as it were. We know that if that policy is continued in operation we shall be still far away from the ideal of the men of 1916 or of 1920, the ideal of securing true prosperity for Irishmen in their own country.

In an earlier debate this evening, speakers referred to certain advantages which could be classified as grants or rebates in rates that might be afforded to the agricultural community. Yet I believe the fundamental question in this matter is whether we are to have agriculture classified as our number one industry or whether, through concentrating on the building up of an industrial arm, we are going to allow agriculture to lag behind. It is, of course, correct to say, and it is well to know it, that there has been an increased output from the land in recent times and it is a source of satisfaction to all to know that we are able to export a greater volume of agricultural produce, whether as a result of the activities of the Government or due to the fact that nature has given us such a mild climate and blessed us with such advantageous conditions during the last harvest. While we are told that we have secured this increased output, unfortunately in answer to a question here recently in the Dáil we were informed that, coupled with that increased output, we had the problem of 22,000 persons leaving the land in one12 months. Surely that in itself constitutes a grave problem, perhaps directly related to agriculture but even more related to the problem of employment in the rural areas. It is not sufficient to take conditions in Dublin as an index to supply the over-all picture as regards prosperity or otherwise in this country. It is true that there may be emigration from Dublin, Cork, or other cities, but emigration is not so noticeable there owing to the constant influx of people from rural areas. We all know that should prosperity come the way of Dublin City or Cork City, that itself is not a sufficient index that increased prosperity has arrived for the country generally. The problem of unemployment as it affects rural areas particularly is a matter to which the Government must give particular attention.

An interesting point to which I should like to draw attention concerns agricultural prices versus agricultural wages. Later on, I may have to refer to the policy arising out of certain reports of the Central Bank, but at this stage it may be well again to draw attention to the fact that 22,000 workers have left the land in recent times. While the Central Bank may lay particular stress on the effect of increased wages, and while perhaps members of the Government from the Taoiseach down may say that agricultural wages have increased to a greater proportion than the cost of living—in this connection may I say that I have very little respect or regard for statistics which can be twisted to suit any argument—it must be remembered that prior to 1947 the wage rate on the land was so low that the present rate cannot be considered as a true rate to compare with the increased cost of living. I shall not go into these matters more closely on this occasion because I realise that the question is one which is more directly related to the Estimate for Agriculture, but it would be well for the Taoiseach to realise that emigration must of necessity be coupled not only with the question of production but with the standard of living which these people were told they would have to endure. If members of the Government tell usthat the cost of living, according to the famous index figure, has increased only to a certain proportion, I should like to know why it is that the report of the Central Bank failed to mention another outstanding fact and that is that out of the general wage increase, roughly from 33 to 35 per cent. of that increase has been charged against the allowance for food for these agricultural workers.

Another consideration which the Government naturally must bear in mind is that whilst a large number have left the land in recent years, we are now coming to the age, I believe, of the highly mechanised farm. That being the case, as year after year rolls by, we are faced to an increasing degree with the problem of the machine taking the place of the manual worker. That shows how fantastic it is for anybody to say here that local initiative with the co-operation of local authorities, and without the assistance of the Government, should be sufficient to supply a remedy for the unfortunate position that may arise year after year in regard to the unemployment problem in rural areas. It is true that during the period of the inter-Party Government they encouraged and helped agriculture by way of providing machinery for the land. They were prepared to face this grave problem that confronts us. Let us leave out personalities and personal spite and admit, after two and a half years of studying the results, that the mechanisation of agriculture, owing to the help and co-operation of the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, is such a success that it would have been well if the Government, instead of counteracting, as it were, such a policy, had improved on it.

The Tánaiste for some time back has been concentrating on and drawing particular attention to the importance of industrial exports. I believe that in doing so he means well. I also believe, however, that in doing so he is inclined to forget the other problem that may confront us should his policy be put into operation on the scale which he wishes. If we concentrate on industrial exports and the Government give theirblessing to that policy, ultimately we will be faced with a problem which other countries have had to face in the past and are still facing. Are we to believe that the over-all picture is such that we can compete successfully in England, America or Canada against the home manufacturers?

I give full credit to the firms in this country who, during a number of years back, built up a market for the export of certain commodities. They certainly built up a market, but it took many, many years. If we are to concentrate on the export market, particularly the industrial market, and want to compete successfully, we will have to revert to something which the Taoiseach and the Government for some time back have been completely opposed to, and that is subsidisation. If we adopt the line of approach to this problem of telling the home consumers that, in order to try and capture foreign markets, subsidies must be imposed, which, of course, must be paid for by the people of this country, I believe it is bound to be a failure. I believe that if a greater effort were made to concentrate on building up a home market we would be in a happier position to face the future than we would be in trying to queue up, as it were, with other countries from far and near who would be competing against us.

During your term of office you did a good deal to kill the home market.

Poor Deputy Burke has come in. Deputy Burke's contribution was confined solely to horticulture. I suggest that the nice mild weather we are having would help him greatly if he did a little horticulture.

My contribution was general.

It is hardly necessary for me to say that the Government had always the support of the Labour Party in their effort to build up the industrial wing and, by combining agriculture and industry, to build up an economic fabric in this country. I am sorry to say, however, that my own experience has led me to the conclusion in connection with some of the industries established with Governmentfinancial help, whether they are semi-State or otherwise, that in nine cases out of ten it is letters of recommendation from Fianna Fáil T.D.s that will get jobs for people. The sooner we get away from that system in this country the better. The sooner we are prepared to say that industry must be kept outside the political arena, as it were, the better it will be. Industrialists should realise that as long as they are prepared to put goods on the market which the people can buy at a reasonable price they will have our co-operation. If they are not prepared to co-operate in that way, then it is the duty of the Government to see that their activities are closely watched. I maintain, however, that political co-operation between industrialists and members of a certain Party is doing greater harm than many people realise.

Deputies have mentioned the close connection between the policy of the present Government and the reports of the Central Bank. I am not in a position to say whether that is so or not, but what strikes me as strange is that, even if they started from completely opposite ends, unfortunately the Government by their policy have arrived at the position which was more or less advised in the reports of the Central Bank. According to the Central Bank report, the public works can be cut down, owing to the favourable condition of employment. For the last couple of years, we know that the operations of Government policy caused certain reductions in public works and housing. As a result, whether we like it or not, we see that we have had in operation the policy which was advocated by the Central Bank, that is, nothing less than restriction in credit facilities. It has meant the removal of food subsidies and unfortunately it has meant unemployment. Whether it is that the Central Bank report has been swallowed lock, stock and barrel by the Government or whether it is that the directors of the Central Bank knew they had the Government's blessing is immaterial, but the result has proved disastrous, even in two and a half years.

During the same period, when such advice was given to the Governmentor to the country, we also had the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, taking it on himself, with the advice of his Government, of course, to discuss the future approach on these financial issues with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Britain. The Taoiseach may say that has no connection, but as we go along can we not clearly see the road for ourselves? Who will deny that the policy which has been in operation here has given the self-same results as it gave elsewhere? If that is so, the Government and the Taoiseach must be prepared honestly to say that their attitude to these problems has not given the desired result and that they are prepared to extend their activities into other fields to counteract that. It would be well for the Taoiseach to remember that a prominent member of the Government has openly expressed his complete objection to these famous reports and has termed them the "wailing banshees". The trouble is that the "wailing banshee" policy means unemployment and emigration and too much of a standard of living which is not in accord with the Christian ideal. No matter what Government may be in power, it will be judged by the policy it has put into operation, based on the problem of finance.

In the last couple of years, as also in the last 25 or 30 years, we have been faced with the question of raising loans. In this connection, one significant point is often forgotten—the repayment that must be made, plus the amount to be paid by way of interest. It may be well at this stage to draw attention to words used by a Government speaker in this debate. At column 1836 Deputy Briscoe said:—

"Money in the banks is private property. Therefore, it would be wrong to suggest nationalisation and acquisition of property of that nature."

In saying so, he drew particular attention to the fact that he was a follower of the Constitution passed in this country in 1937. If the champions of private enterprise want to tie themselves to this particular policy we do not object, but it is well to draw attentionto words used by the same Deputy on the same day, the 9th December, as given at column 1830:—

"It is a protection of the assets of those who have entrusted their money to the bankers."

We may ask in regard to those who entrust their money, what are these depositors receiving by way of interest? That question will not be answered in the House. We may be told it is outside our discussion here. What is not outside our interest is, what are the bankers charging this country for every house that is built for a farm worker, a road worker, or a city worker? What interest have we to pay, and continue paying, as in the past, for water supplies, sewerage schemes, lighting and so on?

The Government cannot say that private enterprise in itself will tide us over our ills. We realise that nationalisation in itself is not necessarily the cure for all our ills, but we do know that many industries are of such a nature that the only hope we have for the ultimate good of our people is nationalisation. We say the only way this problem can be approached—be it through the Central Bank or otherwise—is by a way that will ensure we will not be compelled year after year to repay not alone the loans—which naturally we know must be repaid—but hundreds of thousands of pounds throughout every county in the Twenty-Six Counties for supplying what is vitally important to our people —homes, hospitals, and so on.

The Government had 16 years in office and now has been two and a half years in office again. I am not speaking here for the satisfaction of saying one side of the House is all wrong and the other side is all right. If the Government is not prepared to consider this problem, which is directly related to the government of the country, and if they are not prepared to go further and secure finance at a charge which will not place an intolerable burden on our people, their policy, no matter how good it may sound or may look on paper, will not give the desired results to the communityas a whole. The Taoiseach himself has admitted that taxation at present is a heavy burden. In order to ease that burden, this problem must be faced. If the Government is not prepared to face it, that burden will not be relieved to any appreciable extent.

For the past two and a half years we have been hearing a lot about a few words. Governments in many countries coin certain phrases to their own advantage. In this country even the young children on the roadside are almost familiar with the words "balance of payments". In this House time and time again we had this question of the balance of payments thrashed out for us. That brings me back to that famous or infamous word "statistics". The phrase "balance of payments" may sound all right on paper but if the Taoiseach or the members of his Government ask one of the hundreds of thousands of financiers in any home in the country—the housewife —about the balance of payments, they will get a very different answer from that which they will get from the statistics that they are concentrating on year after year.

The Taoiseach may not admit it in this House but surely in his heart he must realise that the policy operated in the past two years, coupled with the famous matter of the balance of payments, has meant a lowering in the standard of living of many of our people. Even more unfortunate is our present unemployment problem and the large volume of emigration. We always seem to be bemoaning emigration but the tragedy is that many young members of this House who are anxious to co-operate in easing the unemployment situation and stemming the flow of emigration, and who look for advice and for a lead from persons who have been in this House for the past 30 years, do not get any encouragement. If there had been less concentration in the past two years on the matter of the balance of payments and more concentration on the provision of employment and the stemming of emigration, I believe it would be better for the country.

We have heard various Government Deputies and Ministers complain about stockpiling by the inter-Party Government. I might say, however, that the present Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, agreed at the time that stockpiling was important in view of the international conditions then prevailing.

Deputy Lemass agreed with no such thing. He agreed with the stockpiling of raw materials, not of finished goods.

Deputy Burke should get back to such subjects as horticulture and the widow from Balbriggan.

What about the timber which was diverted to Belfast?

That was the surplus which you bought.

I am sorry if I have interrupted Deputy Burke while he was writing his letters. I am trying to keep this on an even keel.

I am trying to keep you right.

I do not mind you at all, poor creature. If the Government had spread the work over a few years, I believe that we would remedy the problem of the balance of payments without half the hardship that has been caused to our people. The Taoiseach may laugh. Unfortunately, the Taoiseach is dependent on reports from outside. There was a time when the Taoiseach was in a position to acquaint himself much more fully with the economic situation and believe me when I say that I am sorry that he is not still in that position. I believe that the reports which come to the Taoiseach are completely different from what they should be. The economic life of our people is at stake. If the Taoiseach were, as he was some years ago, able to concentrate personally on these reports, we might not be faced with some of the problems which confront us at present.

Mr. Brennan

Are the Deputies on the Government side of the House not capable of keeping the Taoiseach in touch with the country?

I do not want to go into a personal matter. I have respect for the members of this House, no matter what Party they may belong to. I will not say any more about the matter.

According to a reply which was given in this House last week, there has been an increase of approximately 17,000 in the number of civil servants between the years 1939 and 1952 or 1953. I do not for a moment say that we should clear out the Civil Service. At a certain period in our history, the present Taoiseach and the present Tánaiste maintained that the number of civil servants, permanent and otherwise—the total number at that time being 20,000 —should be reduced by 18 per cent. It only goes to show how wrong they were in their assumption at that time. In view of the present high number of civil servants, I suggest that it might be a good idea to stop recruiting for some time to come. Surely we have enough now. In addition to the large number of civil servants we must also take into consideration the big increase which has taken place in local authority employment. It will not help the economy of our country if, year after year, we continue to increase the numbers in such employment.

Remember what Deputy Corry said about the civil servants.

I am conscious of the fact that undoubtedly the Civil Service can be of tremendous importance but, on the other hand, if the executives are permitted to have too much of their own way—as I believe they are in some State Departments—they will be more of a hindrance than a help and, in my opinion, that is because of the weakness of some Minister in the present Government.

Deputy Briscoe spoke in this House on Wednesday last, the 9th instant, and in the course of his speech hereplied to a point made by Deputy J. A. Costello. Deputy Costello had drawn attention to the transfer of certain moneys from the end of one financial year into the succeeding financial year and, naturally, he did not agree with that policy. Neither do I agree with that policy. I believe that moneys that are proper to one financial year should go in in that year rather than be brought over to the succeeding year. Here is what Deputy Briscoe said in relation to that matter, as reported at column 1844 of Volume 143, No. 10 of the Official Report:—

"... If we are going to have such a gift up our cuffs for the community, they will support us and put us back again."

The "gift" to which he was referring is certain money brought over to the next year. If that remark by Deputy Briscoe represents the attitude of the Government, led by the Taoiseach, the outlook for our people is gloomy. If the Government believe that they will gain by the adoption of these methods, they must think that the ordinary men and women down the country are fools. It would be a sorry day for our country if the outlook of Deputies of this House was not that it is our duty, individually and collectively, to take advantage of every possible opportunity to look after the interests of the community in general but merely to try to ensure their re-election to this House either as individuals or as a Party.

This Government might be termed a one-man Government. The tragedy now is that, because the Taoiseach is not able to have complete control of the reins of Government, the Government is in the position that it is forgetting the present, in order to prepare for the future. If we did not say that that lack of co-operation meant unemployment and increased emigration, I believe we would not be giving expression to the views of the people outside who say that what they want are not Government sops or lip service but a decent chance of employment in their own country.

It was suggested at the opening of this debate thatspeakers could choose their own subjects. Many of the speakers have mentioned the question of emigration and I propose to say a few general words about that subject. Apart from Partition, there is no other problem which has been the subject of so much discussion in this House as the problem of emigration. Leaders of both Church and State have been bemoaning the terrible evils of emigration since we achieved this modicum of freedom in this part of Ireland. Day in and day out, from every platform and every pulpit, we have had responsible people bemoaning the evils and dangers of emigration. Facts always speak for themselves and I have gone to the trouble of ascertaining from the census reports at various times the figures for emigration since self-government was achieved here. I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity of the leaders of all political Parties who are anxious to solve the problem, or at least to reduce the figures, but the position is that, in the past 30 years, we have succeeded in driving out of this country more people than the British drove out of it in any other comparable period, with the exception of the famine period. Between 1926 and 1951, we got rid of 473,430 people through emigration and of this number 142,815 were from the province of Connaught.

A total of 142,815 from Connaught, which Deputy Flanagan knows well.

I want to ask you a question about that in a minute.

The Deputy can make his own speech, if he has not already made it. Some people may ask if the position has not improved in the past five, six or seven years, but, from the figures I have looked up, I do not think there is any improvement. As a matter of fact, I think the opposite is the case. According to the census report of 1951, the figure for net emigration between 1946 and 1951 is 119,568. That is a five-year period, and, in that five-year span, we lost, through emigration, as many as we lostin either of the two previous ten-year periods. Nobody can argue that the steps taken to solve the problem have proved successful. I do not suggest for a moment that the various Governments made no attempt to solve the problem—that would be a most unreasonable suggestion—but I want to point out that, in my opinion, the opinion of just one individual, the figures I have given indicate that the steps taken so far have not been sufficiently vigorous to tackle the problem in the way in which it should be tackled.

To what extent do you think emigration is bad?

If a man or a woman who desires to live here, to work here and to rear a family here, is deprived of that opportunity by economic circumstances, the economic situation that denies them that opportunity is wrong and if emigration is caused by that condition of affairs, steps must be taken to remedy it. In other words, it is undesirable that any man or woman who wishes to live in Ireland should have to leave Ireland. It is interesting to note that, in the 1946-51 period for which I have given the figures, we had both an inter-Party and a Fianna Fáil Government, so that, as far as responsibility is concerned, I am not going to blame one Government more than another for helping to speed up the emigration rate.

I propose to give the figures for my own constituency without going into too much detail. In 1926, the population of County Roscommon was 83,000, which had gone down, in 1951, to 68,000 and a further examination of the figures will disclose that, between 1946 and 1951, we lost in County Roscommon, through emigration, as many people as we lost in either of the two ten-year periods prior to that. To put it in an even more blunt way to the political Parties here, since 1926, enough people to elect two Dáil Deputies, and to elect them with a comfortable majority on the present basis, left County Roscommon. If emigration continuesas it has continued since 1926, in 50 years' time, one Deputy will be sufficient for a constituency of that size. Many people may say that one is sufficient at any time, but, on the basis of allowing a public representative per so many of the population, there will be no need for these representatives because the people will not be there in 50 years' time.

The 1951 census figures disclose that County Roscommon is in the tragic position of having the second highest percentage emigration figures. County Leitrim heads this rather doubtful honours list. Many people may think that Donegal, Mayo and other Gaeltacht counties are hit harder by emigration than other counties, but the census figures reveal that Roscommon and Leitrim, counties which are side by side, head the list. I have not suggested, nor am I going to suggest, that efforts have not and are not being made by the Government to solve the problem. The Undeveloped Areas Bill was passed in this House. That measure is an attempt on the part of the State to aid private enterprise in its alleged efforts to give employment and increase the productive wealth of this country.

To my mind—I said this when the Bill was being passed—it was one of the last opportunities given to private enterprise to prove that it was capable of tackling such a huge problem as emigration and unemployment in the West. So far, a limited success has attended the efforts of those who put this Undeveloped Areas Act into operation. I use the words "limited success" markedly. I am afraid they will not be able to solve the problem, and I am afraid that as long as we depend to a great extent on the private enterprise outlook we will see the same conditions obtaining in ten, 12 or 20 years' time as obtain to-day in the field of emigration.

For years I listened in this House to a lot of twaddle about the sacred rights of private enterprise while all the time our country was being bled of its finest people. I think, unless as a nation we have lost all our fightingspirit, the present smug theories in connection with private enterprise will not be tolerated much longer by the public. If private enterprise fails to grasp its opportunities now with both hands, then I maintain that the State must step in no matter who likes or dislikes it for the very simple reason that it is the duty of the State to ensure that the opportunity to live and work in Ireland is given to everybody who is willing and anxious to do so.

I think that is the accepted thing. It is the right of men and women born in this country to work and live here if they so desire. They are entitled to work here and they are entitled to a living wage. People may dislike what I say but I do not care who likes or dislikes it. For too long the emigration ship has solved the worries of different Governments in power by carrying away the most virile of our youth. I believe it is really the cream of our population who leave this country—the people who are not going to be satisfied or gagged into relief and doles. It is those people who leave and, mind you, they do not get great conditions when they leave but they are a proud race. I wonder what conditions would be like here if there was an economic slump in Britain to-morrow morning and if the thousands of boys and girls who left here to go to England were forced to return? I wonder would we be able to make any effort to give them employment?

Some people may say that that is all destructive criticism. I said it all purposely. I gave what I considered to be facts with regard to the emigration position of my own county and the figures which I gave are correct generally for the country as a whole. The Undeveloped Areas Act and the setting up of the National Development Fund will in themselves help. I think there is one other thing that could be taken into consideration and that is a complete change in the fundamental outlook to development. I would like to enlarge upon that.

We will have to catch the imagination of the youth of this country. We will have to give them a feeling of confidence and security so that they will work here at home and not beattracted merely by the wages in Britain. We will have to instil in them a feeling that they will be proud to get the wages in Ireland and take part in development work and help to build the nation for which so many died in the past. That feeling so far is missing from the youth. We have to-day a very cynical, suspicious atmosphere among the youth now growing up. They are cynical for many reasons that I do not propose to go into in this House.

One of the most important things that we need with regard to youth to-day in the question of employment is a feeling of security and the knowledge that there will be continuity of work. There is no good offering a grown man three months' work in the year. I want to make it clear that, as a temporary measure and when the situation is bad, it is necessary to give a man that kind of work, but we should not put off from year to year the main problem of giving continuity of work to that man. Next March or April we forget what the position is during the winter time and when October and November come along we again get anxious and money is sanctioned for schemes in October, November and during the winter months.

It is a difficult problem and when I say it is a difficult problem I mean it is one which affects our outlook as much as the actual physical methods by which we think the problem can be tackled. There has to be a change in mentality before we can take the right steps to tackle a problem of this nature. I cannot emphasise too strongly what a spirit of discontent can do to workmen. The idea of security and continuity must be given to all and especially to those employed under State auspices. The pay packets must come in regularly each week. It is no use having the pay packet come in for three weeks or six weeks at certain times of the year. That pay packet must come in regularly in the same way as it comes to a civil servant, a teacher or a Guard. The workman must have the same feeling of security that these people have. He has only got that to a limited extent.

I will give a typical example of the type of bungling that goes on in certain State bodies. This matter was raised in the House by Deputy Norton some weeks ago. It concerned 100 men who were suddenly dismissed by Bord na Móna. That was perfectly true. Those men got no warning and no indication of any description. They were just told a week before that their services were no longer required. I am not suggesting for one moment that that State body could have kept on those men. What I am trying to get at is that some other State body should have been in a position to know that Bord na Móna would no longer need the services of 200 men, for example, and to make alternative employment available for these men. That brings me to a very delicate subject. It is one which may leave me wide open to misrepresentation in this House.

First of all, I say that at present there is very little co-ordination between the various Government Departments. In other words, if men are employed on forestry work for three months of the year another Department is going to compete with forestry at the same time for the services of these men. Consequently, there are periods of the year when we probably have a shortage of labour. What I am trying to get at is that there is no co-ordination of employment and if we cannot have that co-ordination there is a logical conclusion to it.

It can be safely said that no country in the world can offer a man employment in the exact locality that he wishes it and the exact type of work that he needs. It should be sufficient in the state of development of our country to-day that we should be able to say to our youth: "We are able to employ you but we cannot guarantee employment two miles from your own door or outside your own backyard, but at least we will give you employment some place in Ireland." That, to my mind, is a better proposition than having that boy or girl emigrating. We know what happens when they emigrate. They will have no say in regard to their employment or place ofemployment. Perhaps through force of circumstances or through the firms which employ them they may be shifted from one town to another, here, there and everywhere. However, they are getting work and continuity of employment.

We must be prepared to put into operation a system of co-ordination whereby if work ceases in one locality the men on that particular work can be transferred to other areas where work is available. What I am suggesting will not need the setting up of another State Department or a Ministry of Labour as in Britain. We have already, through the Department of Social Welfare, our labour exchanges and we have the actual machinery that can be put into operation to carry out my suggestion. The outlook with regard to the labour exchanges must be changed. In future as far as these exchanges are concerned their efforts should be almost entirely directed towards obtaining employment for people rather than acting as a medium of transmitting unemployment relief. The aim should be to have at their disposal employment for the numbers who register at these exchanges.

There is a section in the Government at the moment under Deputy Lynch, the Parliamentary Secretary. That section deals with the co-ordination of Government Departments in their work in the Gaeltacht areas. I criticised that office—Oifig na gCeanntar gCung—before and I stated it was unfair to have a man of Deputy Lynch's ability in an office like that where he has little or no power and where his power to co-ordinate efforts is very limited indeed. If he is going to have the power of co-ordination his powers should be extended to the country as a whole and finance should be put at his disposal.

The National Development Fund Bill ties in very nicely with the remarks I am making here. We have various schemes of development in the country; we have Bord na Móna and the E.S.B., with rural electrification and its power stations; we have a tremendous amount of reconstruction under way; there are big drainage commitments, large-scale housing constructionand a limited amount of afforestation. A great deal of employment is being given on those schemes. I venture to say that there is no co-ordination whatever between all these Departments to ensure that if there is a surplus of workers employed on one of those that that surplus, if suitable, can be switched to one of the other Departments. That is where the co-ordinating section comes in. Money should be made available to that co-ordinating Department. If there are men engaged on housing and for some reason or another the housing programme diminishes, this section I am talking about should be enabled to look around and find that, say, the Forestry Department could take on another 250 men in a certain locality.

Is the Deputy suggesting there is that mobility of labour?

I am suggesting that that mobility can be brought in. The Deputy was not here when I said I would be leaving myself wide open to misrepresentation.

I do not wish to misrepresent the Deputy.

I am not suggesting the Deputy wants to misrepresent me but it is such a delicate problem. If we are going to have continuity of employment somebody must take the step in connection with this question of mobility of labour. It can be achieved not completely but to a far greater extent than at present especially in work such as I have mentioned, drainage work, afforestation and road works. Operations under the Local Authorities (Works) Act are now in progress in parts of different counties. At the same time you have in progress a big road construction programme and both are competing for men in the various localities. That is a matter that requires co-operation and co-ordination. If the case arises where the local authority has not at its disposal sufficient funds to employ the men available then a State body such as Deputy Lynch has at the moment under his control should be in a position to co-ordinate the efforts of thevarious local authorities and to switch over from one county to another. I have already pointed out before Deputy Briscoe came in that it would be a grand thing to be able to offer people in this country continuity of employment.

The Deputy should not go over the same ground in order to explain to Deputy Briscoe.

Nobody is going to suggest that we can offer them employment in their own parish for the 12 months of the year, but if we can offer them employment in the country rather than that they should have to go outside, that is a step in the right direction. Without repeating what I said before, if Deputy Briscoe wishes to know what my earlier remarks were——

He can read them.

——he can look them up in the Official Records.

I will read them with interest. I take it the Deputy is separating rural from urban work?

Certainly. Last year I think the amount of money paid out in unemployment assistance was £1,500,000. Quite a large amount of that money need not have been spent in that way if steps had been taken on the lines I have suggested. The most important thing I want to bring home to Deputies—and I suppose I am straining their patience by repetition of it—is the fact that until we get a spirit amongst the young people that they are proud of this country, until they take a pride in the work they do and are anxious to see the nation improve and become prosperous, we will not make satisfactory progress. Offering them temporary employment, good though it may be under the circumstances as an immediate help to them to keep body and soul together, is not a sound proposition. Whether it affects rural workers or urban workers, there is nothing as demoralising to a human being as to be offered six weeks' or two months' work. In these circumstances, if an individual is offered twomonths' work he knows very well that at the end of that time his services are going to be dispensed with, and he says: "Why should I bother myself about this?" He will kill time and waste time because he knows that it is going to make no difference to him. In that way you create a demoralised outlook amongst workers by this policy of penny wise and pound foolish. The sooner we get down to spending money on long-term projects of real importance that will ensure continuity of employment the better.

There is one matter I should like to mention in connection with the amount of money that is being made available under certain headings at the present time. I understand that An Bord Fáilte will have £3,000,000 at its disposal to spend in the next three and a half years, and that under the National Development Fund a sum of £5,000,000 will be made available for development work generally throughout the country.

Each year.

Yes, each year. In that connection, circulars have been issued to the various local authorities by the Department of Local Government asking for suggestions as to how this money should be spent. The reason I mention that is that here, again, in connection with the spending of money, we have evidence of a lack of co-ordination. I have here a copy of a lecture or speech which was delivered by Mr. Nugent, the chairman of An Bord Fáilte, to the county managers in the course of which he told them that the board had this £3,000,000 to spend. In other words, he said in effect to them: "Help me to spend it in the next three and a half years." Some of the methods by which that money is going to be spent by the local authorities is on the provision of swimming pools, local improvement works such as the construction of footpaths leading to spots of scenic beauty and so on. These are all very good objects, but when one turns to see what suggestions are made for the expenditure of money under the National Development Fund, onefinds proposals of the very same kind coming from the Department of Local Government. In other words, you have two different bodies or Departments offering money to the local authorities to expend under identically similar proposals.

I am not criticising the expenditure of money on any of these useful projects, but what I am criticising is the fact that you have these two bodies making proposals to the local authorities, neither knowing what the other is doing. That is why I say we have this lack of co-ordination, with a resulting waste of the money. I am not saying this by way of criticism of the idea that is behind the National Development Fund, but rather in the hope that steps will be taken to have a discussion between these two bodies as to which of them is going to ask the local authorities to make provision for swimming pools and for some of the other works that I have mentioned. At any rate we ought not to have the two bodies making the same proposals to the local authorities. That is what I am anxious to see avoided.

Another subject that has been debated to a great extent is our financial policy. About a fortnight ago I was sitting in the House listening to a discussion on finance. The extraordinary thing was that it was the first evening this year that we had a really thick fog. I do not know whether the fog started in the Chamber here on the discussion on finance, or whether it invaded the Chamber from the streets outside, where, perhaps, it may have led to a traffic hold-up. Maybe it was created by the Deputies who were speaking and who were not clear in their own minds as to what our financial system should be. At any rate, every time we discuss that question in the House there is a fog, if not in the Chamber, at least in the minds of most of us who discuss it. I am not suggesting that I can clear away the fog from the minds of Deputies, but I think that, as far as many Deputies are concerned, they know that a change is necessary but are afraid to express themselves openly on that issue.

As far as the main Opposition Partyis concerned, I want to say that they cannot have it both ways. On many occasions I have heard members of that Party say in the House that this Government have no control over money here, and that the old lady in Threadneedle Street is the boss. That statement has been made on many an occasion in this House, that the Government have no control over the finances or over credit. Immediately after such statements had been made, other Deputies on that side have got up and accused the Government of having given a direction to the banks to limit credit.

I say that Deputies cannot have it both ways. If the Government have no control over finance or over credit, then, clearly, they cannot, as has been suggested, give any directions to the banks to place a restriction on the giving of credit. One thing, however, has been achieved in my opinion, and that is that there has been a gradual feeling growing up on both sides of the House that a change is necessary. There is a new approach definitely in this House on the problem of finance. People who have expressed rather conservative views in the past have, to my mind, shown courage in so far as they are prepared to admit that they have been wrong and are now agreed that a change is necessary. I am of opinion that no change of a drastic nature is likely to take place. If the present Government make a change they will make a gradual change of course. I think that any disagreement that there is on this question between the two big Parties is on a political basis alone, each trying to score off the other. Both Parties, as far as finance is concerned, are agreed that a gradual change is necessary.

Banking in this country is a monopoly. We have at the present time a commission sitting taking evidence about restrictions in different trades by monopolies, cartels and so forth, but the biggest monopoly we have is banking. The whole life stream of the country could be chocked by it at any time if this limited group of people, in a spirit of irresponsibility, were to choke off credit. For years pastthe State has left that tremendous power in the hands of those people. One of the most hopeful signs that I have yet seen was the recent speech made at a bankers' function by Deputy Derrig, the present Minister for Lands. I think that speech will bear fruit with the banking people of this country. If the Minister's warning was not good enough for the banking people, I am sure that the Government, of which he is a member, will be prepared to back up by action the viewpoints which the Minister, on behalf of the Government, expressed in that speech. I shall finish on that note, that in my opinion the Minister's speech was the most hopeful sign that I have yet seen. It indicated that a determined effort is going to be made by the Government to achieve the real control that is so desirable here for credit facilities, and for credit, generally, in the country. If that power is achieved and if it is properly used through development work, through the setting up, for instance, of the National Development Fund and other similar projects such as that under the Undeveloped Areas Act, I have no doubt that tremendous leeway will be made up with regard to the development of this country. We are all agreed that to a great extent we are completely undeveloped and if we are going to develop we need money and if this money is not forthcoming all the talk in the House about afforestation, drainage, housing and so forth is just hot air. I hope that the speech made by the Minister for Lands will really bear fruit and will obtain those results from the banking people that we all so ardently desire to see.

I think Deputies in this House generally will be in agreement with most of what Deputy McQuillan has said. As a matter of fact I could almost say I am in complete agreement with him so far as the question of finance is concerned. I think it is gratifying to note that there is a general feeling in the country that the private monopoly which controls credit and finance and currency should be questioned as to how they exercise that control. It may be said and it is true, in fact, that the banking interests are concerned with their own personalinterests and if their interests coincide with the interests of the nation I have no doubt they will invariably at all times do what is right, but if the interests of the small minority working for their own profit were to coincide at all times with the interests of the nation it would be a very remarkable coincidence indeed and I think it is with that attitude I would like to approach this question.

There is on the Order Paper a motion which asks for the setting up of a commission representative of all Parties in this House to inquire into the whole system of banking and currency and credit with a view to ensuring that our credit will be used for the purpose of promoting agricultural and industrial expansion and providing a living for our people here in Ireland. I think if that suggestion were adopted it might have very useful results. I have no sympathy whatever with any proposal to set up a banking commission as was done before composed entirely of bankers. They are certain to ask the questions and produce the answers that satisfy their own preconceived ideas but if you have a banking commission or committee composed of Deputies of this House of various Parties all anxious to find out what is wrong in our present financial system and how it can be improved, then I think some questions might be asked of those who control our financial system.

Is the Deputy anticipating the discussion on the motion?

No, Sir.

Well, it sounds like it.

The motion might not be reached for two years, and I think it would be better to have a decision taken on it soon. I think it would be better if an indication were given by the Government as to whether they would investigate this matter more thoroughly than has been done in the past.

Before theDeputy will get a chance to change again.

The Minister for Lands indicated that he does seriously question the present financial policy of those who control banking in this country. I think from that point we can go forward and see if it is not possible to ensure that whatever money is available within this country, or whatever financial power rests in our banking institutions will be used mainly for the benefit of our people. I think that is all that the nation requires.

It is a fact that emigration is in many ways one of our greatest problems but it is a problem that hinges upon employment and I am always rather inclined to regard unemployment as our most serious problem because if we can provide, as Deputy McQuillan suggested, the prospect of continuous employment for our people here at home then they will not need to emigrate unless they are naturally of a roving disposition. There will always be people in this country, and I suppose in every other country, who like to travel and see the world, but they are not, and cannot be, as great a proportion of the total population as the number who left this State over the last 30 years.

Deputy McQuillan asked what would be the position if those Irish people who are living in Great Britain were forced to return. We might put the matter in a different way and ask: what would be our position here if those 400,000 people who have emigrated had remained here over the last 30 years? What would the present position be to-day and what would be our economic and social problems? I believe if there had been no outlet such as is provided by emigration there would have been over the last 30 years, perhaps, a more drastic and more radical attack upon the economic problems that we have to face than has occurred. I think it is a good thing that Deputies generally, irrespective of Party, are thinking on those questions in a non-Party way. I think there is a general feeling that the problem of providing increased employment for our people is being tackled in a vigorous way.

The decision of the Government to provide a fund for national development work is a step in the right direction. It may not be a step towards a complete solution of the problem but it is one step that required to be taken, because even if we had further expansion in agriculture and industry and even if emigration were under better control than it is; even if we had that position there would always be a certain floating population, so to speak, of people who would not be able to find a foothold in industrial or agricultural employment. For those there must always be a flexible source of employment controlled and operated by the State and I think it is in that way that the Government are tackling this problem by providing additional sums of money to the various local authorities to enable them to employ additional numbers of men if and when they require them. We are ensuring that at least something very substantial is being done to cope with the problem of unemployment. The development of road works all over the country naturally suggests itself because the roads wander here and there throughout the length and breadth of the State. Because they do, it is possible to provide work on the public roads in all parts of the State and to direct money to whereever it is most urgently needed in any part of the State. For example, when numbers of workers are disemployed by Bord na Móna because of the seasonal nature of the work on which they are engaged a national development grant would go a considerable way towards ensuring the re-employment of these men immediately in some other occupation. I disagree with those Deputies who suggest that this fund represents relief work. It does nothing of the kind. It is for the purpose of work of national development. Any man who is employed in improving our roads and making them more passable, particularly for those who live in the remote rural areas, is doing useful work of national importance. So is the man who improves urban amenities and the main arteries which carry the transport of the State as a whole. All these people do useful national developmentwork, and work of that nature would be regarded as work of national development in any other country in the world.

Prior to the war we all read of the development works carried out by the totalitarian rulers of Italy and Germany. Possibly there was a good deal of window-dressing and exaggeration in relation to those works but nevertheless we know that a considerable amount was achieved and no one regarded what was done as relief work. These people were engaged in building up these particular countries. Whether they were building for peace or war is a question that the historians can dispute, but they certainly engaged in development work in their respective countries.

Work that improves our roads and that extends those roads into the remote rural areas is work of national development. Not only that, but it is work of tremendous national importance. Drainage work, whether it be arterial drainage or that carried out by county councils, is of immense value. There has been criticism of the Government because more money has not been spent under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I think the Government is spending a considerable amount of money under that Act. Admittedly, a very substantial sum was granted originally, but that sum was reduced by the previous Government and it has been stepped down over the years.

It must be remembered, too, that drainage work carried out by local authorities has not as flexible an employment content as has work done on the roads. Three, four or five miles of road can be resurfaced and reconstructed anywhere and, once the work is done, it will not have to be done again. If it is reasonably well carried out no problems are created. In order to carry out satisfactory drainage one must gauge the level of the area to be drained right from the source of the river to the outfall. One cannot pile water up in heaps. If one drains the upper reaches of a river one must continue the work right down to the outfall. That is where problems occur in connection with drainage. Last weeka Deputy referred to a particular case where a farmer required work to be carried out under the land project. It was not possible to do the work because the stream had not been cleared. The Deputy in question laid the blame for that at the feet of the Government.

The position is not quite so simple as that. Many farms cannot be drained because there is not a satisfactory outfall for the water. The carrying out of drainage piecemeal by the county council will not solve the problem. One can always theorise in matters of this kind. It is only when one comes up against a specific case that one can speak with more authority. I know of a particular case where a farmer applied to have his land drained under the land project three or four years ago. The officers of the Department pointed out that the work could not be carried out unless the local stream was cleaned up. At my request, the local authority carried out the cleaning of the stream and made a very good job of it. When the work was completed, without the help of excavators or any of the other essential equipment, it was still found that the level——

Would not all that be more relevant to the Estimate on the Department of Agriculture?

——was not satisfactory, to the detriment of this particular work. I am just instancing that as an answer to a case that was made by a member of the Opposition that the land project would have proceeded much more rapidly if more work had been carried out by the county council. Anyone who knows conditions in rural Ireland knows that that is not true. The whole problem of drainage must be tackled, not so much on a county basis, as on a catchment area basis. The tributaries of the rivers must be followed right through so that the water can find its way to the outlet. That is why Deputy McGilligan, when he was Minister for Finance, found it necessary to reduce very considerablythe grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

They were not reduced ever.

Yes, by £600,000——

They were up to the complete expenditure.

——in the last year that the Deputy was in office.

They were reduced by the Party you followed.

That, of course, was inevitable. The local councils can carry on a certain amount of work, but it must be done on an organised basis, having regard to water levels, and to the necessity of ensuring an outlet for the water. Therefore, it would be desirable in all future schemes of drainage to have close coordination between the officers of the drainage section and local authorities, in so far as they are involved, and of the officers in charge of the land project. The officers in charge of the land project must have a fairly extensive knowledge of the conditions in each county and could give very good advice and assistance to the local authority engineers or the engineers of the Office of Public Works. By such co-ordination we could ensure that good value would be got for any money expended on drainage, whether the work is carried out under the land project, under the Local Authorities (Works) Act or under the arterial drainage programme.

It is no harm to emphasise that the various schemes of road work and drainage could employ a large number of those who are now unemployed, and could employ them very usefully for a considerable period. This work is not relief work in any sense of the word but work of national development. In 50 or 60 years' time the roads that are constructed by national development grants will still be serviceable. The rivers and streams that are cleared up will still be valuable. That work can be linked up with the national arterial drainage scheme which should bespeeded up very considerably. An effort should be made to get more work planned and surveyed and put into operation under this particular scheme of arterial drainage. The Government would be well advised to make more money available for that purpose. The nature and contour of the country make it necessary to have drainage carried out on a very wide scale. Drainage should not be carried out in a piecemeal fashion but should be planned on a national basis.

Work of national development can go a long way to solve the problem of unemployment. If the problem is to be solved as completely as we would wish and if we are to deprive ourselves, if you like, of the safety valve of emigration, to which Deputy McQuillan referred, we must plan more boldly and vigorously. We must aim at ensuring that the agricultural industry is operated on lines somewhat similar to those adopted in the smaller European countries, which have set a very high standard of agricultural output and efficiency. It is essential that the fundamental agricultural policy of the present Government be continued, that is to say, we should continue to guarantee to our farmers who own the land, for certain products, wheat and sugar beet, for example, a remunerative price and a market. Certainty of sale and security of price should be the objective of the Government in regard to portion of the farmer's produce. The farmer cannot be guaranteed a price for every article that he produces. That would be impossible and might not be a good policy. We will always have an exportable surplus of agricultural products, particularly animal produce. As far as that is concerned the most any Government can do is to endeavour to assist the farmer in securing the highest price possible in external markets. Having done that, and having provided the farmer with the essential facilities for carrying on his industry, that is the limit to which the Government can go. The Government cannot guarantee a price in external markets. I do not agree with Deputy Desmond's suggestion that it might be possible to subsidise exports. I do not think that policy can be carried on toany extent or for any period. We can guarantee the farmer a price for wheat and sugar beet. As a farmer, I say that a guaranteed price for those two crops ensures that portion of the farmer's income at least is absolutely secure. He can be certain that for the output of a substantial portion of his farm he will get a market and a fair price and he can gamble with regard to the rest of the farm and do the best he can, using his own judgement as to the best commodity to produce for export.

In dealing with this matter last week the spokesman of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Dillon, referred to wheat in the terms in which he usually refers to it. He renewed or continued his attack on that particular crop. He made the case that Irish wheat at the price that is being paid to the Irish farmer, is 7/-, 8/- or 9/—I think he said—per cwt. higher than the price of imported wheat. That is gross exaggeration. It shows that the main Opposition Party are determined to put an end to wheat-growing and to deprive the farmer of one of the few products for which he has to secure market. I do not think that Deputy Dillon or any member of the Fine Gael Party is serving a useful purpose by creating uncertainty in regard to the future of wheat. Both sides of the House should come together and agree on the main form of agriculture or an outline of agricultural policy. In particular, they should try to agree on a wheat policy. If there is a feeling that the growing of native wheat would come to an end if there should be a change of Government, uncertainty is created amongst farmers, merchants and millers. If wheat-growing is to succeed to the maximum extent possible, very considerable sums of money must be invested in the improvement of mills, improvement of storage capacity at mills and improvement at corn-merchants' premises.

It is also, of course, essential that farmers should invest a certain amount of capital in tillage machinery, and they can only do that if a long term assurance is given that wheat growing will be national Government policy for a considerable time. But Deputy Dillon came into this House last week and created alarm and uncertaintyamong farmers by pointing out that wheat growing was completely uneconomic and giving a clear indication that if he once again got his way that particular industry would be knocked on the head. That is not the way to encourage national development or to encourage the farmer in the first place to plan his operations on his farm. If the farmer wants to think in terms of his future policy he must know with a reasonable degree of certainty what the Government intends to do in regard to his operations. If he knows that it is Government policy, regardless of whether there is a change of Government or not, to promote and assist the growing of wheat by a protected market and guaranteed prices, then he can go ahead and spend a considerable amount of money on improving his farm and perhaps purchasing additional agricultural machinery and purchasing and providing storage accommodation for grain on his farm. Those are all things to which the farmer has to turn his attention, but when he reads Deputy Dillon's speech as reported in the papers over the week-end indicating that wheat growing is uneconomic and bad Government policy then the farmer would ask himself: "Would I be justified in spending a certain amount of money with a view to continuing or increasing my acreage of wheat?" The farmer would ask himself: "Would I be justified in reclaiming rough grazing and making it suitable for tillage so as to grow wheat if perhaps when I have that done and a considerable amount of money expended another Government will reverse the present Government's policy and wheat growing will become a thing of the past?"

I think it would be no harm if there was a clear statement from the Opposition in regard to this matter. In so far as Deputy Dillon's statement was a statement of Fine Gael policy it was that wheat growing will come to an end if and when Fine Gael ever resume office. I would like to say that I am not raising this in a Party manner. I would like to see the Opposition and the Government sitting down and coming to a definite clear-cut decision in regard to the fundamentals of agricultural policy. What is true of wheatis also true of sugar beet. If it were to happen at some future date that sugar were to be cheap on the world market would Deputy Dillon, if he were Minister, advocate that the whole industry of growing beet and producing sugar in this State should be scrapped? As far as his speech last week goes it indicated that that would be his line in regard to this matter. I think that in this matter Deputy Dillon was not speaking as an ordinary Deputy of this House but as one of the leaders of the Fine Gael Party and as their shadow Minister.

We all know that there is and has always been something radically wrong about the Fine Gael approach to national economic questions. They seem to have swallowed a good deal of free trade philosophy. They seem to claim that we must produce anything we can produce in this country in competition with the whole world, and that no protection whatever should be offered in the home market either for the farmer or for the manufacturer. In a thousand different ways they put this proposition before the House. Sometimes they encourage the farmer to attack the manufacturer by saying that he is feather bedded and that he is, as Deputy Dillon put it, riding around in a Chrysler car on a feather bed on the farmer's back; but at the back of it all they have the idea that not only are they going to deprive the manufacturer and the industrial worker of protection but they are also going to deprive the farmer and the farm worker of the protection they enjoy— because it cannot be disputed that the farmer and the agricultural worker do enjoy a substantial measure of protection both in regard to the growing of wheat, the growing of beet and, over the last 20 years, in regard to dairying and dairy products.

In all those things there has been a considerable measure of protection provided for the agricultural industry, and I think a considerable measure of protection will need to be always provided, not for the complete output of the farmer but for a portion of his output, so that with the measure of security he enjoys regarding portion of the products of his farm he canadventure forth and sell the remainder of his output in the world market to the best possible advantage. That, I think, is and ought to be the fundamental basis of agricultural policy, giving the farmer at least some measure of security.

I remember that in 1931 when agricultural prices were collapsing completely the Government at that time said the farmers should keep one more cow, one more pig and till one extra acre. The farmer who kept one more cow found dairy prices falling, the farmer who kept one more pig saw pig prices collapse, and bacon was sold in this State at 3d. and 4d. a lb. When the farmer put one more acre under the plough the tillage produce was found to be utterly unsaleable, so that in the end he had nothing for which he could secure a remunerative price. Then I remember one of the then Ministers saying to the farmers: "Produce what pays and produce more of it." The answer came back from the farmers: "What article pays at the present time in agriculture?" That was the condition in 1931, brought about by world conditions generally, and the farmer had no shelter, no protection whatever of any kind. Even at that time there was a limited acreage of beet being grown, but even there the manufacturers of sugar, who were a private company, decided that they should keep in step with the general fall in agricultural prices, and they cut the price of beet down so rigorously that there was a complete close down for one year in the sugar-producing industry. We have to guard against that kind of thing, and we can guard against it. We can guarantee to our farmers a market and a price for a portion at least of the produce of their farms, and, having guaranteed that, we can expect the farmers to use their intelligence and their brains and their knowledge to conquer a place in external markets for the things that we have got to export. That would be my idea in broad outline of agricultural policy.

Last week, Deputy Dillon also referred to the question of feedingbarley. Having attacked Deputy Lemass for, as he said, suggesting that farmers were in some ways feather bedded, he proceeded then to attack the Government for having feather bedded the growers of barley in this State. For nearly an hour he concentrated on a fierce attack on the Government for keeping up the price of maize. Now it must be admitted, and, of course, we all know one of the reasons why the importation and distribution of maize was restricted for a certain time was to enable farmers who had grown feeding barley to dispose of their produce.

A funny thing in this connection is that while the Government did meet the farmers in a reasonable way—they held up, I suppose, the distribution of cheaper maize and they enabled the barley growers to dispose of their crop at a price which I think was fairly reasonable—all the time that that policy was being operated by the Government, they were being attacked by the Fine Gael Party for not doing more for the barley growers and for not coming in earlier in the year to announce a fixed price for feeding barley. In other words, you had the Fine Gael Party attacking the Government for not doing what Deputy Dillon now condemns them for having done. It is hard to have patience with a Party which pursues such an absolutely contradictory line of policy. If we are to believe their spokesman now, Deputy Dillon, we may take it that their future policy is to import maize as cheaply as possible and leave the Irish grower of feeding barley to fend for himself. I think it is time that the Fine Gael Party made up their mind as to what is their policy in this respect. If they stand for a fixed price for feeding barley, they cannot blame the Government for placing some restriction on imported feeding stuffs.

I know very well that the problem bristles with difficulties. If the Opposition Party were to face it in a reasonable way and discuss it purely on the basis of what is best for the country, I think they would get co-operation from the Government and that it might be possible to carry out an agreed policy with regard to this matter. Butif the Government is to be attacked, first for not announcing a remunerative price for feeding barley and then attacked for having tried to protect the growers of feeding barley, it does make it more difficult to carry out an agricultural policy in this State.

I think it is time that a more responsible attitude were adopted. We know that we have got to ensure that our exportable surplus of agricultural produce is produced as cheaply as possible so as to leave a margin of profit. How far that policy can be reconciled with the policy to assist the native grower of oats and barley is a difficult problem at any time, but it is rendered more difficult when you have an Opposition which adopts two contradictory lines of policy—at one time pretending friendship for the grower of Irish feeding stuffs and again, on the other hand, claiming that the grower of Irish feeding stuffs is exploiting the unfortunate feeder of live stock, the producer of pigs and poultry, and robbing him. That is the line Deputy Dillon took last week. I think it would be a good thing if Fine Gael, without going outside their own Party, were to sit down and decide whether they stand for protection for the grower of cereal crops or whether they stand for the free importation of the cheapest feeding stuffs from any part of the world, leaving the native grower to take whatever comes to him.

I think it is only just foolishness for the leaders of Fine Gael to claim credit, as they try now, for the increase in the volume of agricultural output and in the volume and value of our exports. They tell us that that was their policy and that the Government are now reaping the fruits of their policy. If we stretch our minds only a very short distance, we shall find that in the first year when the inter-Party Government were in power they were applauding themselves to the skies for the increased output of eggs and bacon and the increased exports of cattle which took place in 1948 although the hens which laid the eggs, the cows which gave the milk and the cattle which were being exported, had all been born the previous year or some years previously.It does not do any Party good to seek to acquire for themselves credit for every favourable circumstance that may arise or to try to attribute blame to the Government for every unfavourable circumstance that may occur.

In a matter of this kind, I think it would be a good thing if there was a little bit of reason and common sense. Agricultural policy, for example, is a long term continuous policy. Changes in the trends of live stock operate slowly. Changes, perhaps, in the acreage under tillage can be brought about more quickly. It is true that in a few years after 1948 the area under tillage was brought down by 500,000 acres. I think it was unnecessary and undesirable to have that very substantial decrease in the acreage under tillage. Land does not, and never will, produce to the maximum as long as it is left uncultivated. I think that is a principle which will be accepted by everybody. The high rate of productivity in Denmark and Holland is due to intensive cultivation. Even if a farmer wants to produce grass of the best quality, he has to till and manure the ground. Any policy that is calculated to cut down the total acreage under tillage is a bad policy, a policy designed to reduce the total national agricultural output.

It is no harm, since a good deal of boasting was done by the previous Government in regard to agricultural output, to refer to the fact that over the last three years net agricultural output has increased very substantially. Taking the index figure of the volume of net agricultural output excluding turf for 1950 as 100, in 1951 it was 101 and in 1952, 106—that is approximately an increase of 5 per cent. in one year. Five per cent. is not a very substantial increase but at least it is something. It is a step in the right direction and I think that when the figure for 1953 comes to be studied, it will be found that there was a further increase. At least, all the indications are that there will be a further increase in agricultural output. I think it is along these lines that we have got to make provision for meeting the problems to which Deputy McQuillanreferred—the problem of emigration and the problem of unemployment.

We have over the last two years expanded the acreage under forestry and there has been a very big expansion in the work of land drainage and reclamation. That work must go on. In fact, as far as afforestation is concerned, it ought to be stepped up very considerably. It would provide an increased output from the waste land of this State and it would provide increased employment. But, in addition to anything that may be done by the Land Commission or the Forestry Department, I have often thought it would be a good policy if we set up in this State a land development authority with power to acquire waste land and reclaim it, acquire it, in the main, by voluntary agreement and with absolute freedom to hand it over to the Land Commission for redistribution or to the Forestry Department for planting. At present, the Forestry Department will not take land if it is useful for agricultural purposes and the Land Commission will not take land if it is not suitable for division into holdings. Between the two, there is a great deal of marginal land which does require development, and which is practically waste at present and a source of immense loss to the whole nation. Therefore, I think something should be done in that direction.

Lieutenant-General Costello has, to a certain extent, blazed the trail in regard to tackling waste land and showing what can be done with it, and I think it is along the line he has indicated that a good deal of work can be done. While I am not enthusiastic about State bodies, I think it is to some extent through some State-financed body that work of that kind will have to be carried out. If that were done, it would make available a huge area of land both for agriculature and for afforesation, land which is not at present available. We know that farmers can drain their land under the land rehabilitation scheme but, where a farmer has a very large area of poor land, there is not often the incentive, or probably he has not the capital or the resources or the time or energy, totackle the job. If there were a State body which would purchase that land at a fair price by agreement, a very great deal of useful work could be done, a great amount of employment could be given, and it would add very much to the national output.

Deputy Cosgrave, in the course of his speech to-day, said that he doubted very much if the level of wages had kept pace with the rise in the cost of living. I had some doubt in my mind in regard to that matter but, instead of expressing that doubt, I made some inquiries in the Central Statistics Office. I find that while the cost of living increased by 14.7 per cent. since 1951, the level of agricultural wages increased by 18 per cent., the level of hourly wages in a number of industries by 23 per cent., the level of wages in the transport industry by 17 per cent., and in another group of industries the level of wages increased by only 13 per cent. So that, in the main, the rise in the level of wages has more than kept pace with the rise in the cost of living. As far as the farming community are concerned, their level of income, as can be gathered from the agricultural price index, has also kept pace with the rise in the cost of living. The agricultural price index in October, 1953, was 14.1 per cent. higher than in June, 1951. So that over a very wide range of various sections of the community we find that there has not been a lowering of but rather a rise in the standard of living.

Of course, in considering the general level of wages, we must also take into account the increase in the children's allowance, because the heads of families would be most severely affected by the cost of living. The increase in the family allowance, I think, would be about 35 per cent. as against an increase in the cost of living of 14 per cent. Taking all these things into consideration, I think it will be admitted that, as far as the working population are concerned, whether they be farmers or wage earners, the standard of living over the last two years has been maintained.

It is in regard to those who are unemployed that we all feel the greatest concern. The action of the Governmentin providing a National Development Fund, which is flexible in its nature and can be diverted to any area where there is a large amount of unemployment, is the best solution at the moment when it is combined with a policy of stimulating and encouraging agriculture, particularly by giving stimulation and encouragement to real agriculture, which is the cultivation of the soil and the growing of crops both for the home market and for conversion into animal feeding. I think it is in that way that we can step up and increase our agricultural output.

I hope those Deputies who sometimes accuse me of having some animosity towards Deputy Dillon will bear in mind what he said last week when he referred to the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee. He said that, while hard blows may be exchanged in this House, we all entertain a considerable amount of solicitude. As far as I am concerned, I have the deepest solicitude for Deputy Dillon and I wish him nothing but good luck and success. He made a reference to one particular matter in which I am very deeply interested as a farmer and a person living in rural Ireland. That was what he described as the parish plan. He said he had decided to introduce the parish plan, but that his successors knocked it on the head, that he in fact was the author of that plan. It is necessary to point out that he was not in any sense the author of the plan. The author was Very Rev. Father Hayes, founder of Muintir na Tíre, and the plan which he envisaged was entirely different from that which Deputy Dillon sought to introduce at a later stage.

The plan that Very Rev. Father Hayes had in mind was the organisation of the people of each parish into a group or guild, electing a parish council and working together, irrespective of class, creed or Party, for the benefit and the improvement of the parish. That was the parish plan laid down by Very Rev. Father Hayes. It was a good plan and it deserves to be considered and if possible put into operation. It would be a great thing if in every parish there were a unitworking to improve that parish. It would be a great thing if the money spent on the dole were handed over to a parish council and spent within the parish on the unemployed in that parish. If there were ten men unemployed there, the money could be given to the parish council, which could employ the ten men on improvements within the parish. In that way, a plan could be put into operation in which local initiative and local endeavour would be dovetailed into the more general financial policy and a real effort would be made by the people, in their own home areas, in co-operation with the local clergy, to seek to solve the problems of each local area.

The plan which Deputy Dillon proposed was to have a parish agent for every three parishes. That agent would be under no supervision from the local committee of agriculture and the local agricultural officer would have no control over him. He would be a free agent in local affairs, under the direct control of the Minister for Agriculture. He could be a very useful political agent for the Minister. I have a feeling that if Deputy Dillon's plan had come into operation, the so-called parish agent would find it necessary to sound Deputy Dillon's trumpet in every townland throughout the length and breadth of the State. That was the so-called parish plan Deputy Dillon had in mind. He was asked why he did not put it into operation and said he was held up by a "brat." That was his own description of the officer who did not co-operate in putting the plan into operation. It is amusing to think of the new dictator of agricultural policy, with all his glory and dignity, being brought to naught by someone he describes as a "brat." It is well that scheme was not put into operation.

A much better plan could be operated by increasing the number of agricultural instructors, giving each of them a specified area within a county, under the control of the county agricultural officer. If there were local agricultural committees in each district they could co-operate and direct in carrying out the operations in that district. In that way we would have in each county a number of compact agricultural districts each operated bya local agricultural officer, keeping in close touch with the people in that district and directed by the county committee and county agricultural officer. That would be a practical scheme, but Deputy Dillon's so-called parish plan was never a practical one and deserved to be brought to naught by what he described as a mere "brat".

In regard to financial policy, it would be a good thing, as I have said already, if there were a close and searching inquiry into the whole system of credit and banking. It would be a good thing if there were a committee set up, representative of all Parties, a Select Committee, to inquire into banking and credit. It could summon those who control the banking system before it and could find out how their policy is operated, how they hope to operate it and how it could be improved for the national benefit. By leaving Party feeling and Party politics aside and by concentrating on our economic and financial problems, we can go a very long way towards solving them if we have earnestness, courage and zeal on the part of all sides in the House. If we cease from seeking to make Party capital out of the incidents which inevitably occur from time to time in the operation of Government policy and in the ordinary economic life of the nation, if we are willing to forgo the taking of Party advantage and if we are prepared to search for a proper solution, we will find that solution. In the meantime, it is a good thing that the Government has decided to undertake works of national development.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

I will open with the ball where Deputy Gallagher left off. A while ago he was talking about football and how it should be encouraged. He was looking at it from the angle of finance. There is one thing I will always give credit to the Taoiseach for, that is, for having said at some pretty representative gathering in this country that all games should stand on their own feet. The significance of thathad, I hope, nothing to do with money.

The last speaker referred to wage increases and children's allowances. They have very little bearing in rural areas. The percentage of persons affected by wage increases in his own district would not have much effect at all. I can assure the Deputy that the standard of living is not nearly as good as it was before the recent Budget. The effect of the changes in taxation and subsidies were immediately offset by subsequent increases in wages to catch up with the increase in food prices. However, as a result of the steep rise in the cost of living, you had unemployment and emigration. The present unemployment and emigration figures should be a matter of grave concern to an Irish Government. In that connection, I should like to hark back to the people who voted for a reduction in the housing grant, a reduction in the forestry grant and all the reductions that directly led up to that state of affairs. Imagine voting for a reduction in forestry—considering how much it affects a county like Wicklow, not to speak of the whole country—at a time when a standard of timber cost £198. They talk about the almighty dollar. I am quite green and quite a baby so far as public speaking is concerned, and consequently, I will not go into statistics. Also, I am sorry that the Deputy from County Wexford called for a House, as I should be much happier with only the very small audience I had some five minutes ago.

The Deputy is brutally honest.

Broadcasting might be put to better use in this country. It could help to clear up the misunderstanding that exists between city people and the rural community on farming matters and particularly on the price of food. If farmers were given the chance to put their point of view before city people many of these differences could be overcome. The fee for a wireless licence was increased by the present Government to 17/6 and the radio is the medium to which people pay the most attention.

Wicklow, in common with Kildare and probably Wexford and Meath andother counties, is a very big milk producing county. There has been much talk recently about extending the installation of electricity. As that is more or less a Government-sponsored undertaking, I consider that the Government should press on with the installation of electricity so as to help in the matter of clean milk production. It would make a tremendous difference to the success of dairy farming if electricity were extended further in County Wicklow. Again, too, the veterinary people have very recently been pressing for the installation of water. Particularly as a result of the recent dry weather, many people have not enough water in the matter of clean milk production. I understand that some steps have been taken but that if water is not installed within the next three months these people will be compelled to go out of business. Electricity would save them an amount of money. The installing of petrol engines, diesel engines, and so forth, in the matter of the provision of water would become obsolete if electricity were connected.

Quite a good deal of progress has been made with regard to drainage. We should be very thankful for the schemes which were inaugurated by the inter-Party Government and probably pressed on, though not to the same extent, by the present Government.

At some stage in my statement I should have mentioned that I hope that what I have to say will not hurt anybody's feelings. Anything which I say is meant to be impersonal and impartial.

I should like now to remind the House of the period around the end of 1947 or the beginning of 1948 when the Taoiseach said that this country was down and out and that he saw no solution of our difficulties unless there was a reduction in our standard of living. That, in turn, would have the effect of bringing about unemployment and emigration. He said that we had our backs to the wall and that the position was such that if anybody in this House had any solution to offer he would be glad to hear it. In justifying the 1952 Budget, the Minister forFinance said in his Budget speech that even if they did nothing else the Government hoped to put this country and its finances into the sound position in which they left it in 1947 or 1948: I am not quite sure of the time but it was about this time of the year—either immediately before Christmas or immediately after it. Quite a lot of people up and down the country say that such statements could never be justified and that they should not, therefore, have been made. Vital matters affecting the lives of the people should be seen with the eye of faith if they are to be valued above the hair shirt, discipline and the chain. I think that one should find out what God's plan is, regardless of what one would like it to be, and make for that.

I feel compelled to refer to the injustice and the tyranny imposed upon a duly elected member of Parliament, Liam Kelly, who is at present in jail in Belfast. For his being there, I want to place the responsibility on the right shoulders.

Hear, hear!

The responsibility for having him in Belfast Jail rests on the Prime Minister of Great Britain and his friends in the British House of Commons. I want to put on the records of this House some words which were spoken by Mr. Churchill in 1912 —words which are as appropriate to-day, and more so, as ever they were. In 1912, Mr. Churchill said:—

"Whatever Ulster's right may be she cannot stand in the way of the whole of the rest of Ireland. Half a province cannot impose a permanent veto on the nation. Half a province cannot obstruct for ever the reconciliation between the British and Irish democracies and deny all satisfaction to the united wishes of the British Empire."

It would be more in keeping if the British Prime Minister would stay at home, rather than trot around the world on behalf of democracy, and give this nation the freedom which it is entitled to have. Mr. Kelly went before his people and deliberately told them what he was standing for. His constituents made it their business to go to the polling booths and vote for him.They voted him into the Parliament of this country, which is here. Because Mr. Kelly loves his country so much, he is at present in jail in Belfast, at the behest of the British Government. It is only fair that we should express our protest at his imprisonment.

Listening to and reading speeches from both sides of this House and from outside it for some time past, I must say that selfish vested interests, a lack of an elementary knowledge of the functions of money and credit and a fear of social change are our worst enemies. Deputy Carter last week suggested that I did not mean anything I said about money and credit. I do not propose to attack Deputy Carter because I think he is more to be sympathised with than blamed. I am satisfied that he has never given an hour's thought or consideration to the matter of finance and its effect on this country.

You did not give him the fiver all the same.

I am thinking of things which are much more serious than that. Deputy MacCarthy said that if I would show the easy way out, the Government would be the first to seize on it. He went on to say:—

"If the suggestion is to turn on the printing machine and print money as required, I am not prepared to face the consequences of that policy. Money is only a medium of exchange at best, but, without that medium, you cannot enter into trade or commerce or the other elements that make life revolve around us and keep people employed and interested."

I am serious in trying to get down to the fundamentals of all this and I want to ask Deputy MacCarthy, Deputy Carter, and even the Taoiseach, where does the money originally come from? Money is man-made. It comes from whoever exercises the power to originate or create it. Since it is man-made, is it not a case of the originator getting something for nothing which, we are told, is impossible? It is, and those who createour money under the existing banking system at the small cost of book entries or engraving a piece of paper, create out of nothing the money which they lend to us at interest.

I should like to bring Deputy MacCarthy and Deputy Carter back to Article 45 of the Constitution which, in paragraph 2, states:—

"The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing

i. That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs."

Then in paragraph iv it sets out:—

"That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole."

I suggest now to the Taoiseach and to every other Deputy——

Those are the Taoiseach's words.

——why not ask the Dáil to carry out the directives of our Constitution with regard to our money and credit? We should, as good Irishmen, demand that. I deny that I am advocating the use of the printing press for dishing out money as Deputy MacCarthy and others from time to time suggest, because I know well that we cannot live on paper money. We can only live on the production of our people, and our standard of living can be maintained only on the basis of that production.

I want to ask the Taoiseach now if bank credit is superior to State credit? Does the credit of our people increase in value by being entered in bank ledgers, which are privately owned, and lent to the people as a debt? I should like to hear that explained. Perhaps the Taoiseach would tell us if on a given day—and I suggest it should be a date in the very near future—this House coolly and responsibly decided that we should have a currency of our own and that, from a given date, wewould treat the British £ as we treat the money of other countries, what upset it would cause to our industrial development or to our social system. I suggest that there would be none, because whatever currency or credit we have is based on the capacity of our people to produce goods and services. So far as I understand credit, it has two aspects. There is the immediate wealth which the people have produced and the potential wealth which the people can produce to add to it, and I suggest, despite the silly insinuations about the printing press made by Deputy Carter or others, it is time we talked seriously about this matter and ceased to treat it in the frivolous way in which we often treat it in this House.

I listened to the Taoiseach saying that "the State capital outlay is already so large in relation to any reasonable assessment of what we can borrow from the public that it would be the height of imprudence to budget for a deficit on current account." Am I to understand from that statement that the extent to which the country's resources of productive power can be developed will depend not on a physical consideration but on financial considerations—that, in other words, money will be the deciding factor? When I discuss this matter of the need for having control of our money and credit, even with some of my nearest friends, they tell me: "That is beyond me. It is a matter for the financial experts." I do not see anything at all in it for the financial experts, because what I see done by these so-called financial experts are things which are detrimental to the country and I am inclined to believe that the financial experts we employ are people who are not very keenly interested in this country.

I heard Deputy Lehane recently asking the acting-Minister for Finance if the directors of the Central Bank were capable of doing the work they were called on to do and if he was satisfied with their competence. The Minister said he was. My answer is that I am quite satisfied that the directors of our Central Bank are as capable as and no less honest than the people in charge of our whole money and credit system, but that what is wrong is that theyhave not got power from this House to do the things the country demands we do. That is my answer to Deputy Lehane or to anybody else who inquires about the competence of the directors of the Central Bank.

As a member of the Labour Party, I want to say that we stand for a State bank, managed by a board of competent men under the control of this House or subject to the Government of the day. We stand for a State-regulated currency free from control by any outside body or organisation. We have to bear in mind that only a courageous and vigorous policy on the part of the Government is going to save our country. I feel—and I do not pretend to have a great knowledge except what I can glean from reading the newspapers—that this country is not served by being tied up with the British currency. I do not see any solvency about the British currency at all, no more than about anything else I read of. The Minister for Finance stated very deliberately, not in the heat of argument or discussion, that, when the £ was last devalued, we lost £120,000,000 in 12 months. I heard Deputy Carter talk about the danger of touching upon this question of money. I also heard Deputy MacCarthy and other speakers talk about the danger of touching on this question of money.

It would be very interesting to know how many millions we lost during the last war and since the war as a result of being tied to the British currency. I read in some of the English newspapers recently, statements to the effect that the debt of the British Government to-day is something like £26,000,000,000. I referred before and I am going to do so again to the British Government defaulting with the United States to the extent of millions of pounds. I should like to know where we stand since we are not masters in our own house.

I often spoke with people who are interested in the affairs of this country and they said that the time has arrived when we should get down to business and have the necessary control of our country and its credit. Is it too muchto ask those who talk about the printing press why the Central Bank should have the right to create money to the extent of the gap between the purchasing power of the people and the goods that are available and to that extent alone?

I blame the Taoiseach for some of the views expressed by some of his Party members in this House and outside it when they talk about the use of money. I remember the Taoiseach replying to some points I made on this matter. He told us about the dangers and pointed out what happened in Germany where it was more economical to paper the walls with marks than with wallpaper. I suggest that is not a fair comparison as regards this country. To those who are listening to me I want to say that we could learn a very valuable lesson from what Hitler did in relation to finance—not that I stand for his general policy. In 1933 Germany was a bankrupt country with over 7,000,000 people unemployed but in less than six years Hitler challenged the whole world in war. He continued that war over six years.

On forced labour.

The Deputy need not bring in these unnecessary red herrings. I do not stand for forced labour. I do not believe in force at all.

Millions of them.

The Deputy cannot deny that Hitler challenged the whole world nor can the Deputy say that the war ended because Germany had no money. During the same period another country, Japan, joined in the war. When Japan entered the war the great man who thought he knew everything said the Japanese would not last five or six months because they had no money. What did we find? Japan challenged the most powerful nation in the world and she did not fail because of a shortage of money. The moral I am trying to teach is that money does not count but labour and materials. If Deputies read the great writings of Keynes, they will see that in his Reconstruction of Britain After the War,hesaid that men and materials count and not finance.

I do not agree at all with the Taoiseach when he raises scares and talks about the printing press and the terrible dangers of it. In June of this year the Taoiseach went down to Cloyne and addressed a meeting there. He recalled that two centuries ago a famous Protestant bishop, George Berkeley, preached and wrote in sympathy with and encouragement of the disheartened and sadly conditioned people. The Taoiseach said that Bishop Berkeley had in his time asked a number of questions in his writings on national and economic subjects, amongst them being whether there was any other nation with so much good land and so many able hands to work which yet was beholden for bread to foreign countries and whether the industry of our people in foreign lands was not a great loss to the country?

Then the Taoiseach went on to say that when Fianna Fáil was formed they asked the same questions and set out in 1932 to give the answers in concrete form. I read some of the writings of Bishop Berkeley and I thought it rather strange that the Taoiseach did not recall or quote the most important questions asked by Bishop Berkeley some 200 years ago. I will quote a few of them. We can compare them with the ones given by the Taoiseach.

Bishop Berkeley asked: "Whether it be not a mighty privilege for a private person to be able to create £100 with a dash of his pen; whether all circulation be not alike a circulation of credit, whatsoever medium— metal or paper—is employed and whether gold be any more than credit for so much power." I suggest to the Taoiseach that those questions or statements are expressive of a great truth to-day.

About 120 years later, Abraham Lincoln, a man whom the Taoiseach often quoted during his own political career, said that the privilege of creating and issuing money was not only the supreme prerogative of the Government but it was the Government's greatest creative opportunity. Money would cease to be master andwould become the servant of humanity and democracy would rise superior to the money power. Of course, subsequent to making that statement Abraham Lincoln was murdered. There is evidently no proof that it was by the money power.

I would refer the Taoiseach, Deputy Allen and other members of the House to what Hilaire Belloc said in 1938 when writing about banking. It is as follows:—

"I have called it in general ‘the money power', and it is true that in general the eternal duel between monarchy and money-power includes the special form of money-power called banking, and lest a point, not often defined, should be misunderstood I will proceed to define it."

I quote this for the benefit of those people who sneer at and trifle with the question of the money-power in this country. Belloc goes on to say:—

"The power of a banking system lies in three things: first, that it is able to create currency uncontrolled by the State, and in amounts not limited save by bankers' own interest and convenience. It makes money ‘out of air' as it were.

"Secondly, this ‘money' is not real wealth as is land or crops or cattle and can, therefore, be transferred, expanded or concealed without offering any hold to the sovereign authority which should properly govern all society. In other words, a banking system is a State within the State."

I suggest to every member of this House and to the Taoiseach that the banking system of this country is a State within our State.

"Thirdly, the bank currency thus created out of nothing is what is called ‘liquid'. The whole of it can be used for whatever purposes the bank proposes. It comes to check industry at will, to bribe or subsidise whom it will or to penalise whom it will, to control as a moneylender the activities of the community and to drain the wealth ofthat community by the usury it demands.

"Since the whole of this power depends upon the capacity of a banking monopoly for creating currency, let us understand the trick by which it acquires this essential facility."

That was written in 1938 and it is very appropriate to show the justification there is for having this Government elected by the people as the sovereign authority in the country. It is a mere pretence to talk about sovereignty while we have a power outside this House controlling our money and credit. He went on to give an illustration as to how they bring off the trick:—

"You and I with £1,100 can pay 11 men to build a house for us in six months. But a banker with £1,100 can build ten houses where we build one. You and I can lend our £1,100 out at 5 per cent. and get £55 a year; but a banker can get £550 a year on the same basis."

Will the Taoiseach deny that that is not happening in our country since the formation of this State? Why have we to pay £12,000,000 usury—which it is —which comes under the heading of interest on our national debt? Why have we to pay £1,420,000 interest on the electrification of our country? What Belloc stated in 1938 is as true to-day as it was then. The reason we are so helpless since the foundation of the State and the reason we are not making the progress we should be making is the fact that we have not got control over our money and credit.

I would like to tell people both inside and outside this House what is said by persons who know and understand banking better than ever I could understand it. I would like to refer to a statement made by Mr. Marriner Eccles, Governor of the Federal Reserve Bank of America before the Senate Investigating Committee:—

"When the banks take a billion dollars of Government bonds as they are offered, they credit the United States Treasury with a billion dollars and charge their Government Bond Account with a billion dollars; or they create by a book-keeping entrythe money with which they buy the bonds."

Also the Carter H. Harrison Company, Investment Brokers of Chicago, in urging their clients to buy bank stock, say:—

"It is essential only to realise that all banks create out of nothing the money they lend even to the Government. You donate the bonds to the banker and then pay him interest on them besides."

I have often listened to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs referring to crackpots who talk about finance, inside or outside this House. I would like to know what the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs thinks about that crackpot system, one which is operating in our own country. Deputy Carter and others boast about the fact that Government loans were fully subscribed. I would like to know have they given any thought to this subject? We know well the banks have always participated in these transactions. However, as happened in America, if this Government or the last Government wanted money to carry them over and to do the work of the country until the taxes come in, is it not a fact that they would have to pay a large amount in interest to the banks? Why should the Government continue to pay these large sums in interest to the bankers? Last, but not least, I quote this. Mr. Vincent Vickers, who was for nine years a director of the Bank of England and who started to fight against the evils of the money system in England from 1926 to 1939, says this in his book called Economic Tribulation:

"I still believe that the existing system is actively harmful to the State, creates poverty and unemployment and is the root cause of war. I have seen both sides of the picture."

We often pride ourselves on being very religious-minded people and very fearful of doing anything that would interfere with the teaching of our Church. I cannot refrain from quoting what Pope Pius XI said in 1931:—

"It is patent that in our days, not wealth alone is accumulated but immense power and despotic domination are concentrated in the hands of a few who, for the most part, are not the owners but only the trustees and directors of invested funds which they administer at their own good pleasure.

The domination is most powerfully exercised by those who, because they hold and control money, also govern credit and its allotment; for that reason supplying, so to speak, the lifeblood of the entire economic body, and grasping in their hands, as it were, the very soul of production so that no one can breathe against their will."

I would remind the Taoiseach that we had 67,000 workers registering at the labour exchanges. At least 90 per cent. of those workers are anxious to produce the things they need. There is an amount of useful, productive work to be done which would benefit the country. We want to build more houses; we want to electrify the country more; we want to increase our afforestation schemes, to improve the land, to provide extra ships to do our trading in and out of Ireland. These people are standing idle every day. What is preventing them from being put to useful work? The majority of these people, and even those who are in employment, are not in a position to purchase the clothing they need both for themselves and their family. Very often they have meagre furniture and some have hardly any furniture in their homes. The Minister for Health came down to Cork not so long ago and complained—and rightly so—of the considerable loss to the nation because of the number of people laid up by sickness every year. I think he said the loss was at least £12,000,000 a year to the national income. Let us try to realise the loss to the national income represented by the unused labour of 67,000 workers.

Would it not be far better if, instead of having Deputies sniping at one another across the House, all of us were to sit down calmly and try to find a solution for these very seriousquestions on behalf of the people who sent us here? Do we not know that we still want thousands of houses while at the same time we have our men going across to England to look for work? I was speaking to some plasterers no later than last week-end who were thinking of going over. Others have already gone. They are enticed to go there because of the work that is being offered to them and the wages they can earn. Are we afraid to pay our people wages and to give them the purchasing power that would enable them to buy the things that we should be producing? Is the Taoiseach satisfied as to the way we are going about the revival of industry, of putting the kind of life into our industry that should be in it—to produce for us the things we want and so put purchasing power in the pockets of our people? Is there anything so expensive or so wasteful as unused labour day in and day out? In that situation, we have Deputies talking across the House at one another as if everything were serene and happy.

The directors of the Central Bank told us this year in their report—I am quoting from page 16—that:—

"The capital programmes of the State and of local authorities have been running in recent years at so high a level that the flow of current savings in this country has been quite inadequate to cope with the rate of domestic investment and consequently undue reliance has had to be placed on external disinvestment."

The implication in that statement is, I suggest, save more, spend less and create more unemployment. Will the Taoiseach say if that is not the implication in a statement of that kind? I am rather inclined to believe that that statement in the report of the Central Bank is very much in keeping with statements made by the Taoiseach himself during the past year. Speaking in the Dáil, on the 8th of May last, the Taoiseach said:—

"We are determined that taxation will not be increased if we can help it. We have reached a level as high as our present production will warrant and if there are further increases in expenditure they mustbe justified by an increase in production."

It would be nice to get that statement elaborated a little bit more. What is meant by that statement, and who is preventing production from taking place? I am anxious to know that because of all the unnecessary talk that I listen to here. I listened to-day for two or three hours to talk that had no meaning whatever for the people outside. I want to say to the Taoiseach and to everybody else that there is a good deal of cynicism amongst the people outside in regard to the people who are in this House, and upon my word, I do not blame them because very often we talk round in circles and very far away from the things which the people are asking us to do and are expecting us to do. The Taoiseach, when speaking on the same day, went on to say that:—

"The best cure for emigration is to do one's best to stimulate industrial and agricultural activity so that those who wanted to live here could do so in reasonable comfort."

Does that not demand some explanation from the Taoiseach? What is preventing us from doing it?

We have not got quite 3,000,000 people in this country. The Taoiseach himself in 1934, that is 19 years ago, said in very emphatic words that we could support 17,000,000 people in this country on a standard of living which they had never enjoyed before. He said that he could stand by that—that with proper organisation we could have a population of 17,000,000 people. Why is it that we have less than 3,000,000 people to-day, with 67,000 odd registering at the labour exchanges for employment? We have 57,570 of them drawing home assistance. Any member of the House, who is a member of a public body, knows the income of those people. We can picture the lack of purchasing power that there is amongst them, while at the same time we have goods stacked on the shelves in our shops that cannot be disposed of. Last week Deputy Carter asked me to go down the city with him to see the shops and the warehouses and said that the shopswere never so busy. While the Deputy talks in that glib fashion we know that there are so many thousands of our people who have not the means of living, people who are being denied the right to work—to produce the things they need, and to earn the money that would give them purchasing power. I suggest it is time that all of us here should be more realistic when we talk about these important matters.

When the Taoiseach was talking here during the year he said:—

"Our complaint against the Opposition is, that when they were in office the realisation of external assets was absolutely haphazard. There was no control, and, of course, having no control there could be no prudence shown in the matter."

There is a quotation that I would like to give to the Taoiseach when he talks about prudence. It is from a famous statement that was made by Pope Leo XII on "The Duties of Christians and Citizens." It is a quotation that is worth giving, because I am afraid we are often too sanctimonious and, very often as it were, too respectable to do the things we should do. This is what the Pope said:—

"As to those who mean to take part in public affairs, they should avoid with the very utmost care two criminal excesses, so-called prudence and false courage. Some there are, indeed, who maintain that it is not opportune boldly to attack evil doing in its might and in the ascendant lest, as they say, opposition should exasperate minds already hostile."

I am suggesting to the Taoiseach and to everybody else listening to me that we have suffered slums, poverty and social misery, because we have not avoided the two criminal excesses of prudence and false courage.

Talking about financial experts, I had a question down a couple of weeks ago asking where the Hospitals Trust moneys were invested. When I was a member of the Dáil in 1940, I asked the same question here and I was told that I could not get the information, that itwas a matter for the trustees. I was rather green as a member of the House at that time, but I thought it a strange thing, in view of the fact that money had been subscribed for the building of hospitals, and that it had been invested, that I could not be told where it was invested. Subsequently, I had the experience as a member of the Cork Corporation at a time when it was about to float a loan of being appointed as a member of the corporation to interview the Hospitals Trust people with a view to getting at least the £250,000 that we wanted for the building of 210 houses in Cork. The deputation, of which I was a member, met the secretary of the trustees. His answer to my question was that he would like very much to have the money invested in Cork Corporation stock, but that they would lose too much by taking the money from where it was at that time. The result was that we got nothing although we offered 4 per cent. for it to the banks and the banks refused to give us one shilling for the building of houses. As a result of that reply I came into the House to know where was the money invested and I could not get the information. When the inter-Party Government came in I made sure to put down the same question. I was expecting to get the same answer but I was told where the money was invested. I discovered a most remarkable thing had happened when I looked up the reports and found that no report had been published since 1947. I am quoting all this for this reason—that the policy of this Government has not been in the interests of the Irish people and the nation.

When I put down the question recently asking why was not the Hospitals Trust Commission Report published since 1947 I was told it was too expensive and that there was no demand for it and that I could get the information at the local hospitals. I had to go down to the local hospitals and they were not able to give me any information. All they knew was that the Hospitals Trust was giving so much money towards deficits of the hospital. I came back again and asked where was the money invested and what were the losses since 1947. Whatdid I find? That for the nine years for which that money was invested we lost £999,634, or an average of £111,070 per year for the nine years; and yet Cork Corporation were seeking money at 4 per cent. in 1939 but could not get £100 to invest in building houses for their people.

In looking up the matter further I found—and I am now coming very near the present date—that the investments held on 31st December, 1949, for the general purposes fund were £3,679,310 and of that amount £1,034,341 was invested outside the country. The redemption fund investment in 1949 was £29,931 and of that amount £13,662 was invested outside the country. The investment in the year 1950 was £7,325,808, and of that amount £4,928,321 was invested outside the country. For the year 1951, £4,548,708 was invested and of that amount £2,653,842 was invested outside the country.

Coming now to the last one, the investment held on 31-12-52 was £1,030,085, and of that amount £350,492 was invested outside the country.

Why was this money invested in National War Bonds in Britain at 2½ per cent. and for what reason was money invested in ten corporations in Britain at 3 per cent. and 3½ per cent.? While Cork Corporation and Dublin Corporation had to pay 5 per cent. why was this money invested in London Electric Transport Finance Corporation, Ltd., at 2½ per cent. when we were paying 5¼ per cent. for the money used in the electrification of our own country? Why was this money invested in British transport and in London County Council Consolidated Stock—note the places, in Nigeria, Newfoundland, Ceylon, Trinidad, Southern Rhodesia and New Zealand —at 3 per cent. while we had to pay 5½ per cent. and while individuals trying to build homes for themselves and their wives and families had to pay 6 per cent.?

I would like to know—and it is well to be frank about it—why did these people who are put in charge of the money of the Hospitals Trust Fund make these investments? What qualifications had they to hand over thatmoney and invest it everywhere outside the country rather than in their own country to build houses for our people at as cheap a rate of interest as possible? What qualifications had the Earl of Fingal and Lord Longford? Were these people any more honest or more competent than our own Pat Murphys.

You cannot discuss the composition of this trust now on this Vote.

I am talking about the policy of any Government which would put these men in charge of the Hospitals Trust money to invest it abroad.

I have allowed the Deputy to continue on a very doubtful line, but he will not proceed to discuss personalities.

We are entitled to have this information.

You are not entitled to discuss personalities.

When I asked for this information why was it not given to me? Because there was too much respect for vested interests, with people investing our money all over the world. That is happening to-day as well as then because we have people put into places and looking after our industrial development whose hearts and interests are not in Ireland and whose spiritual home is outside Ireland. The time has come when we must be brutally honest and frank about these things. It is like the question asked by Deputy Lehane expressing doubts about our bank directors. I am satisfied that there are men in this House on both sides—and outside it— who are competent to invest those moneys and invest them well, rather than lose £999,000 in nine years. I know where I would like to put them —these people who instead of looking after their own country splashed the money in war bonds and other foreign investments.

I am not afraid to mention names but I have some respect for the men who were put on recently as trustees. Iam quite satisfied that they will not send our money to Ceylon or Nigeria or to ten corporations in England at 3 per cent. and leave the Cork Corporation and Dublin Corporation to pay 5 per cent. for the money, but I have objection to people taking charge in such a way that I have to ask where the money was invested and have to be refused that information. In other words, their bank balances were more important than Pat Murphy.

On looking up the return of the Central Bank, I find that the net external assets of the Central Bank in June, 1951, were £107.8 million and in June, 1953, £124.2 million, an increase of £16,000,000. Bank advances, other than to the Government, were £122.5 million in July, 1952, and £119,000,000 in July, 1953. The total bank investments in the September quarter of 1953 were £19.2 million within the State, and elsewhere—£141.1 million. Then the Taoiseach tells us here there was no restriction of credit. Is it not time that we all talked seriously about the position here, about our financial position and about the position of the country? I am inclined to think that many people do not realise the true position. I am not an expert but I cannot but read certain things every day of the week and I feel we are not quite so happy at all as some people would appear to think in relation to what is happening round about us. This country is safely in a position where it can establish its own living standards without allowing itself to be dominated by outside influences. I am not satisfied that the Taoiseach is taking the serious view that he should take of our position. Reading his speeches and listening to what he has to say about money and finance, I often ask myself if he is really serious.

Listening to Deputy Derrig, Minister for Lands, the other day I really wondered if he meant some of the things he said. Is it not time we took the ordinary people into our confidence and told them truly what the position is? What control have we over money coming in and going out of this country? What functions has the Central Bank? Has it increased our status inany way? Two national loans were floated recently. I was reading some of the statements made when the last loan was being floated and a gentleman in the Irish Pressdescribed as the financial editor made the following statement: “The stock and interest will be exempt from Irish taxation to non-residents.” What an achievement! What a concession! Non-residents will be exempt from taxation if they contribute to the 5 per cent. national loan.

What is the position of the corporations in London which took £500,000 worth of stock and £100,000 worth? This gentleman went on to say: "An important factor in this connection is that an application is to be made in due course for a quotation for the stock on the London Stock Exchange." Is not that a most interesting development? Will that give us an increased acreage of beet or wheat or anything else? Some time ago I heard the Stock Exchange described very appropriately indeed: it was said that, "the Stock Exchange is a place where you buy what you cannot get for money that you have not got and then sell what was not yours for more than you did not pay." Then we are told by those who claim to be experts that an important factor is that the stock will be mentioned on the London Stock Exchange.

While that loan was being subscribed the Minister for Finance came down to Cork and he there made a statement:—

"Private enterprise can by increasing efficiency in industry, by increasing production per unit of labour, accumulate greater profits. No Government is prepared to concede to private industry the right to secure and enjoy adequate profits more than this Government is."

Now is not that a very encouraging statement for the 67,000 people who are registered at the labour exchanges? Is not that a very encouraging statement for the old age pensioners who are trying to exist in their old age on 21/6 per week?

And that comes from an old Socialist. He was a member of the Belfast branch of the Socialist Party.

I do not care what he was but, if he was, then it is all the more regrettable from that point of view. We have the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, making a statement on the 23rd June last:—

"With the disappearance of controls the Government's part in industry would again become mainly one of stimulation and helping rather than of controlling. We want to give private initiative its head to make everybody who is prepared to adventure in new industrial possibilities feel that he will be allowed to enjoy the fruits of success just as he has to pay the cost of failure."

In the same month he made the following statement:—

"There was now almost general agreement that further increases in taxation must be avoided if at all possible. However desirable or necessary the purpose to which tax revenues were put, the level of taxation was already high enough to constitute a serious burden on production."

Of course, the Taoiseach made similar statements. The Taoiseach himself stated that taxation had reached a point beyond which it was not good for the Exchequer, or anybody else, to push it.

I suggest that all these statements and speeches and talk are becoming very sorry reading and hearing for those who are at least capable of thinking for themselves. Arising out of that comes the cynicism to which I referred a while ago. Politicians are now being treated with a good deal of scorn because of the insincerity in our approach to our business here and the insincerity of the speeches we make both inside and outside this House. I am not excluding anybody from the accusation of flippant speeches: what we did and what you did, I can do better than you. That will provide no solution to our problems.

I suggest the time has arrived—indeed, it is overdue—when we should sit down here calmly and give a full week if necessary to discussing thenecessary changes we should make in the control of money and credit in our own country. We have to pay £12,000,000 for the servicing of the national debt—that is a lovely name for it—and for the accommodation of the banks. People are afraid to call it usury, but that is all it is. We are paying less than that £12,000,000 to the 51,283 agricultural workers who produce the food for the nation. That means that 51,000 agricultural workers pay that one item alone. I submit that it is contrary to religion, to common sense and to morality to allow the lifeblood of our country, the credit of the nation to rest in the hands of private enterprise and I suggest to the Taoiseach that something should be done. I suggest to Deputy Carter, to my own colleagues and to everyone else that they could not spend their time to more advantage during the Recess than in reading and digesting the minority reports of the Banking Commission. That will be time well spent and, if they do that, we will return here with some conviction. The Taoiseach, the ex-Taoiseach, the present Minister for Finance and the late Minister for Finance may have all the goodwill in the world but they cannot operate the present system. Do not talk about advocating private enterprise. I do not condemn private enterprise but you cannot reconcile private interests with the public welfare. It is equally impossible to reconcile those as it is to reconcile fire and water, because the one extinguishes the other. Private enterprise has its place but let us not be afraid to have the State come in. If we follow out the teachings of the Church we will find that we are told that the State should govern in lordly fashion on behalf of its people. Considering that we have to-day after 30 years of native government in a country of less than 3,000,000 people poverty and misery and bad housing it is time we adopted a serious attitude and considered doing something worth while.

When I talk about these things I have in mind the people who laid down their lives for the country. I can remember statements made by some ofour heroes in Cork and Dublin. The Taoiseach should take a headline from these men. If he does, he can rest assured that the people will not let him down.

The debate has been fairly long and seems likely to continue. The debate on this Estimate is important. My chief interest in listening to the speeches by the Opposition was to find out what their policy was. The Opposition referred to the restriction of credit, repatriation of external assets, the increase in the bank rate. They did not say much about the food subsidies. Labour referred to them. They are going to restore them in a different way. It is very unfortunate that a Party like the Fine Gael Party should try to bluff the community and even the members of this Dáil. Members of the Fine Gael Party know, as we on this side of the House know, that the increase in the bank rate was a thing over which the Government had no control.

That is a confession. The acting-Minister for Finance will whip you.

The only Party that can oppose us at the next election, or that will oppose us as a Government if they get a majority, is the Fine Gael Party. What are they going to do about it?

Wait and see.

What are they going to do about the bank rate? This is some of the bluff that has been carried on. Why not tell us straightway that they will set up a State bank and follow Deputy Hickey's lead? Would not that be the honest thing to do?

I hope your Party will do it and the Labour Party will stand behind them.

That is what they should do if they can get the support to do it.

You will get support all right.

They are continually silent on that. What is the reason? The reason is that, not alone are they trying to deceive the members of the Dáil, but that they did their utmost to deceive the electorate. This bluff has been continuing for a very considerable time. To-day Deputy McGilligan tried on the same game. Deputy McGilligan denied a statement by Deputy Cogan to-day that when he was Minister for Finance he found it necessary to reduce very considerably the grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That was one of the plums of Fine Gael. I do not deny that the Local Authorities (Works) Act was a very important measure and that quite a good amount of work was done under that Act and, in addition, as Deputy McGilligan says in his statement, quite an amount of work that was perhaps unnecessary. Consequently, when he introduced the Budget on the 2nd May, 1951—Volume 125, column 1900, Official Report— Deputy McGilligan, as Minister for Finance said:—

"The more urgent works have now been completed——"

that is in reference to the Local Authorities (Works) Act—which, of course, was quite true—

"——and this accounts partly for the lower provision this year."

He gave as a further excuse for the reduction, the undesirability of interfering with the supply of labour for turf production. The total reduction was £560,000. All the time we were told that there was no intention of doing that, that it was we who reduced the grants. Deputy Costello, to a large extent, made the same speech as he made last year except that he wanted the co-operation of the Fianna Fáil Party as far as the development of industry was concerned.

He advocated that it should be made a national business. Nobody can argue against that; that is perfectly right, but his second-in-command, Deputy Dillon, in the loudest possible voice that he could develop, told us that all these industrialists that were set up and organised by Fianna Fáil and, I take it, some by Fine Gael or theCoalition Government, were a pack of racketeers. If the Coalition Government should return to power I wonder how they will work together if the leader says one thing and the second-in-command says another. If they have a policy they should tell us something about it. The only inkling of policy that I got was from the Labour Party, who said that they would restore the food subsidies, but qualified it by saying that it would not be in the same way as before, that they would add them on to children's allowances and other things. The Fine Gael Party did not say a word about that.

Will you give us the quotation?

I am just giving it from memory.

Is it correct?

You may take it it is quite correct. I think the Deputy was present when these statements were made.

I was present and I know that was not said.

I think I am correct in saying that this was what was said.

I believe you to oblige you.

The very same bluff went on in connection with the White Paper and the Banking Commission report. They were in power at the time when the Banking Commission was set up. The Central Bank was set up. Their reports were ordered. Why did not they take steps to abolish that? Is this more bluff? If they became a Government to-morrow would they abolish them or would they set up a State bank? These are questions that should be answered. It is my candid opinion that the country is sick and tired of that sort of thing.

I do not think that I ever saw the country in a more prosperous condition than it is in at present. There is more bluff about that. Deputy Costellokicked off by telling us the terrible depression that was here.

Would the Deputy be prepared to test public opinion on that?

That is always the question. That is more bluff. You would be afraid of your blooming life to test public opinion. You know it well.

Let the people speak.

Order. Let Deputy O'Reilly make his speech.

Therefore the position is this, that the people seem to be quite satisfied with the present Government, and justly so.

If the last Deputy's accuracy is to be tested by his statement that it was not Fianna Fáil that set up the Central Bank then he must have a very poor concern for accuracy. The Central Bank was set up by the Party to which he belongs.

I did not say that.

I know you did not. You said it was set up by the Opposition. In fact, it was set up here after considerable arguments by Deputy Hickey, Deputy Mulcahy and myself in endeavouring to get it put here on some more modern road, but we failed, and everything stems from that. Deputy Hickey has addressed the House in the way in which he has been addressing it for many years, putting the same questions as he has put so strongly all over the years. He is not likely to get an answer, the real answer. I do not suppose he will get the answer to-night or whenever this debate comes to a conclusion.

I suppose the same performance will be put up as in every previous year. All the old bogeys will be pulled out of their pockets and retailed to try to frighten him. You will find the people in this country will be told that there is an attack made on depositors in the country, and you will find that you will have people down the country brought into such a state that they can invokeDeputy Lehane who told us the other night that there was now on foot a competition in socialism as between the Labour Party and the Party to which I belong, and that the result of that competition was going to be the driving out from this country of depositors, of the people who made small savings. The people will be told this. There is not, of course, one word of truth in all of this argument used against the point that Deputy Hickey makes. There are many untruths told, but Deputy Hickey ought to be at least comforted by this, that over the years his arguments have had some effect because there is discernible here in the last three or four months a change in the attitude, at least in the phrases in which the Government express their attitude, towards credit, credit policy, banks and banking restrictionism. It may well be that we are on the point of that turning, and if that comes about no man more than Deputy Hickey will have worked harder to achieve what he always thought was desirable and what a lot of us agreed with him in promoting as a desirable end. But there have been no real answers at any time to the points that Deputy Hickey has made over the years. They were put here when the Central Bank Act was going through. Deputy Hickey made the points then with regard to restriction of credit. He foresaw what was going to happen and attacked it as he has attacked it now— that in this undeveloped country there were resources in men and material that were not being used—and he found the main fault there in the fact that we could not get those two unused matters joined together.

He asked, as we did on this side of the House, that the Central Bank should be given the powers of a modern bank, and he asked, as we did with him, that such things as the creation of credit, the volume of credit, the direction of credit, should be under public control, arguing that this country was badly out of step with all modern communities in not having that under complete public control.

We failed, of course, to get the change made, and on that failure and on the failure of those who have foundedthe Central Bank and who under the legislation have run the Central Bank still is undoubtedly to be laid the discredit of many of the unwholesome things that have happened in this country. I see, as I say, a welcome sign of change, and I am going to come back to that later on this evening. I think we can agree with Deputy Hickey that what is vital, the real matter for consideration in this country, is this question of credit, the volume of money and its direction.

Before I enlarge on that, I want to deal with one aspect, whether it be called credit or not, which was discussed in this House last week. I will deal with it and put it in the forefront of my argument because I want to meet very briefly one point made by the acting-Minister for Finance on the Vote taken here the other night—with regard to higher university education, with regard to the special terms that were given in one point to the authorities of University College, Dublin. Winding up that debate, the acting-Minister for Finance said in answer to questions that the authorities of University College, Dublin, had acted in this matter on their own responsibility. He said that the Government had not given its approval to what they did. He even said that the Government had not been consulted. I read his remarks several times since I saw them in the Official Report and it is quite clear that what the acting-Minister for Finance wanted to propagand through the country was the single phrase that the authorities of University College, Dublin, acted on their own responsibility. He did not exactly say that the Government knew nothing of what was going on. That was one point he evaded; but the gist of his speech was clear, and the point he wanted to make the country see and to be taken up as the view later, was, that these people, given great authority and given great responsibility, had acted on their own. That is a contest between Deputy Aiken and the truth which may have ended last week in victory for Deputy Aiken, but the truth certainly was assaulted and maimed. I want to give the truth now.

When I became a member of a Governmentin 1948, it fell to the Department to which I was attached to get ready the plans for the very painful readjustments that had to be made all over the country in respect of the broken lives and shattered fortunes of those who, over the war years, had been shamefully treated by the Government of that period during the war years. We had to accept that the value of money had gone very low indeed, and we found many people who were having to live their lives as if money had not lost its old-time value, with all the hardships that that particular thing imposed on them. We approached those people in a certain order, an order that humanity ordained should be followed. We took the various people, the old age pensioners and other types of pensioners whose moneys were no longer capable of sustaining them on any reasonable level of existence at all. From that, we went through other pensioners, and we approached the servants of the State— the civil servants, the Guards, the Army and the teachers, and we set about readjusting—as I say, it was a painful process—their lives, which had been made painful by the fact that nobody had touched this problem before our time. We set about readjusting, as I say, all those people to the new circumstances by increasing the emoluments they were to get. Late in the group, but in the group, came those who were deriving their livelihood from university work. In the first year in which I approached this matter—and I am speaking mainly here of those who represented the constituent college of the National University and the recognised college attached to that university—I told them my difficulty was to deal with so many claims all at the same time, and my proposal, which was approved of by the members of the Government I belonged to, was that I should deal with the human element first and try to better the living conditions of those who were attached to the staffs of those three constituent colleges and of Maynooth. We gave them the extra grants. All those colleges had building problems, problems that had arisen over the years when no attention had been paid to them for the 15 yearsduring which Fianna Fáil held sway in this country. We put that one year behind the attention to the human folk, but in the end we approached that also.

The other colleges other than University College, Dublin, had been fairly well met by the provision of buildings, but they all had problems with regard to those buildings. Certain repairs and maintenance charges apparently had become too heavy for what provision could be made for them and the buildings were showing signs of wear. But there was one college which had never had its building problem properly attacked. That was the University College in Dublin. If one goes back over the years—I speak here with a certain amount of enthusiasm as a person who came through the university system at a time when we just had got the change-over from the old royal system to the National University—one looks back on those early years when the authorities of University College, Dublin, found themselves with a set of derelict old buildings that had been put up for the purposes of an international exhibition, and after that exhibition was over had been used for the purpose of annual flower shows around the city. They were buildings of no great substance, never intended to be anything but temporary. They were handed over to the authorities of University College, Dublin.

About 1912 a plan for new buildings was conceived. The then President of University College, Dublin, was asked to lend his assistance and to give his forecast as to the number of students so that there would be proper buildings to house the new university that was taking shape in this city. After looking at the conditions he found around him for the early years and allowing for the situation that was likely to develop after we had set up a National University here, he estimated that the number of students might be in the neighbourhood of 700. A building was then planned for 700 or 800 students with a possible expansion to cover the needs of up to 1,000. A plan was drawn up to provide for buildings for, say, 1,000 students. Then the1914-1918 war came on and the contractor found himself unable to carry out his obligations. When that war was over, the authorities of University College, Dublin, found themselves with about 50 per cent. of the buildings that had been planned for less than 1,000 students. The college grew and the students multiplied. They crossed the 2,000 mark and they got to the 3,000 mark.

In the early stages of that college's growth in 1926, the Government to which I first belonged helped the authorities by handing over to them two buildings, the building that was called the College of Science, part of Government Buildings, and the Agricultural College on the north side of the city. With that to relieve its necessities the college, struggled on and when I came to deal with the matter in 1948, 1949 and 1950 I found their situation was intolerable. They had restricted the number of students. They had restricted the numbers by a definite limitation of numbers in certain faculties. They had raised the standard of the entrance examinations in certain other faculties, and they had become more ruthless in their attitude so far as annual examinations were concerned. By these means the numbers of students were kept about the 3,000 mark but they would soon have been half-way to the 4,000 mark, if it had not been for these precautions. Even with that limitation, even when the cycle room had been cleared out and air-conditioned so that the students could be admitted in relays and the laboratory treated in the same manner, with research work cut down to a minimum, with the large classrooms having to be air-conditioned and the students divided up so that they would come in in relays, the possibility of large classes being almost completely out of question, they found themselves in a group of buildings, one part of which was the remnant that emerged from the contractor's hands in 1919 and the other part the ruins of the buildings of the old international show and of the flower show of later years. There were certain other buildings of a temporary type that had been put up to relieve the terrificnecessities of the medical side of University College, Dublin.

In a situation of that kind, it was quite clear that when that situation would be revealed to the Irish public, the Irish public would welcome any aid that could be given to the authorities in Dublin to get a proper situation and better buildings for University College. I arranged with the President of University College, Dublin, that he should develop the plan that he himself had conceived. If the Taoiseach here says that he knows nothing of this plan till he got word of it when he came back to office, I believe him but it will put a strain on my belief. The president's plan was put into pamphlet form. It formed part of the report of the president for the session 1948/49, produced in December

In that there were quoted at length the two memoranda on buildings that had been sent to the Government to which I belonged. That report was presented to the members of the Governing Body of University College, Dublin. On that governing body there are many friends of the Taoiseach, and I am informed that the Taoiseach was kept well informed of that plan and that he knew of it before 1950 had run more than a few months. There is every reason why he should be kept informed, and it was proper that he should be. Do not forget the composition of the college governing body. People who speak about it think of it as a collection of staffs—of professors and of the junior staff—and in their eyes it is a sort of a closed corporation. Even though reports come before the governing body that does not mean that nobody gets cognisance of them outside a restricted number.

There are 34 members of the governing body-some elected by the graduates, some elected by the staff, some appointed by the Senate of the National University, some nominated by the Government. There are eight representatives of the General Council of County Councils. There is also the Lord Mayor of the City of Dublin, and there is a representative of the Dublin County Council. There are ten people of the 34 who have no connection of astaff type with the college at all. Every one of these ten people got this document, and the document spoke of the president's plan.

The president's plan was that there was a very desirable site out along the Stillorgan Road, at a place known as Merville. It was a desirable place in itself. The architects' committee that has since drawn up plans for the development of the site, have referred to the natural beauty of the site on more than one occasion. They spoke of it as a well-wooded area, and they spoke of it in terms of praise. They have expressed themselves in a further report in certain terms. They have expressed themselves in terms of great praise of the site itself. It is a site which runs beside the area at Belfield, where the college has its sports ground. It is near another place known as Ardmore, and it is close beside another place nearer the city down the Stillorgan Road which the President of University College had also purchased. All these properties together form a compact area close to the site, a most desirable site capable of being converted into a modern university institution.

The president, with my authority— with my cognisance certainly and my approval as far as it was asked; I did not think it was part of my business to give approval but so far as I was asked I gave approval—set about purchasing this property. If it be complained that there was secrecy in regard to this, I confess that there was some, but I put it to the House that there had to be. The scheme I arranged with the President of University College, Dublin was this and I put it before the House and the public as being the only proper one in the circumstances. When I was increasing the annual grant for the college one of the difficulties with which the president had found himself confronted was the growing charges for a growing overdraft to the bank. I gave him enough money to clear that overdraft. There were letters from the Department of Finance which enjoined on him that he should not run into an overdraft again unless the Department of Finance or the Government had knowledge of what he wasdoing. I removed that prohibition from the letters and I did that deliberately. I encouraged him to have recourse to his bank to get sufficient overdraft accommodation to enable him to enter on the negotiations for the purchase of Merville. I gave him a guarantee that I would bring this matter before the Dáil in good time and would see that, if the Dáil discussed the matter and thought well of it, he would get the full approval of the House in good time, and so he proceeded to buy. The result is, as I said, that already having Belfield, he bought Merville and he bought another property along the Stillorgan Road, and there is another property about to be negotiated.

Lest the Taoiseach say that this is all from outside, that he knew nothing about it, or that he did not know it officially, there is one thing which must be put on top of it. Those who operated for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs bought a property called Ardmore, which lies near Belfield. The President of University College had bought a property called Montrose, which lies not so near Belfield and on the other side of the road. Before I left office I arranged for an exchange of these two properties and, as a result of the exchange, Ardmore was given to the President of University College, Dublin. That I am sure is again known, because the files contain that particular exchange.

How, in face of what I have recounted, anybody can say that the University College authorities acted on their own responsibility and that the Government were not consulted about this passes my comprehension. I was kept fully informed, but I did not think it was any of my business to approve of this at all. It was a matter of finding the money, and I thought the authorities of University College should be trusted to find their own site and to plot their own buildings, subject to the control of this House with regard to the money. I will make an exception in this way, that if it were found that the authorities were doing something which to anybody would appear lunatic, such as placing the new University College in some slum quarter in Dublin,I think a warning note might be sounded with regard to that.

I suggest that when the governing body, composed as it is, with the public represented by representatives of the General Council of County Councils on it, does this in clear daylight, with all its operations capable of being reviewed at any time, it is stretching care, prudence and responsibility too far to ask that the site or even the planning of the buildings should be brought to the public notice and subjected to public discussion and made await public approval. In any event, having bought these properties, this House was asked to vote the sum of money required to meet the overdraft accommodation which the president had. I understand that a full statement with regard to what is planned and proposed has been before the Government for many months and that they have been kept fully aware of every step in regard to this matter. If that is not the case, I should like to have it precisely denied. I suggest it is the case, and that the phrases used by the acting-Minister for Finance the other night were misleading. I think they were intended to mislead, but they certainly were misleading.

I bring this matter to the notice of the House because of the way in which it was treated. I also bring it before the House, in the context of other remarks which I want to make to-night, as being one of the things neglected for the 15 years Fianna Fáil held sway from 1932 to 1947. With the college student population growing in the way I have mentioned, with the buildings being as I have described—and I am using no terms of exaggeration in that description—there has been nothing done for that University College since 1926. The Government which preceded the Fianna Fáil Government gave to that college the building known as the College of Science, together with the Agricultural Institute up in the Glasnevin direction. The authorities were left to live miserably in buildings that were never intended to house the number of students the country sent to them. There was no recognition of what the problem was. There was certainlynothing done to meet what they were up against. I would have thought that the other night the opportunity would have been taken of the Vote to have this revealed to the House and, through the House, to the country, and that the Taoiseach would have let the country know what was contemplated and how far the plans had gone.

There has been some talk about removing this University College away from Dublin. You may take it that the responsible people who are on the governing body of the university did not just think of Merville and leave it at that, or did not just get a sudden rush to the head about Merville as an ideal site to buy without any consideration of the problems which may arise through the moving of University College from its present site at Earlsfort Terrace. Possibly it would help to clear the situation if I said this, and only this, that the student population in the college at present is about 3,000, that one-third of these at least are living with their parents, in other words that one-third of the students are Dublin folk. If you take those who live in ecclesiastical institutions in the city, the clerical students and the nuns or potential nuns, you can add on another 500 as representing these two groups, and those who look after the education of these young ecclesiastics knew of this plan; they were brought into consultation. That means that 1,500 of the student body can be regarded as fixed to Dublin, either by home ties or by hostels. Of the rest, the medical students, some of whom may be included in this 1,500, require hospital accommodation. Where are they to get that outside Dublin? Apart from whatever machinery may be installed in the new college, engineering students require to see machine shops and engine shops in different places. Where will they get them better than in the city? Go through the different groups that have attachments here in a variety of ways to things that pertain to their faculties and the case is complete for keeping the university inside or near this city.

I noticed the other night in reading the debate that there is a good deal of talk about a residential university, asif that was what was proposed. So far as I know these plans, plans certainly that the buildings committee encouraged and had drawn up, there is no question of a residential university. That, we hope, will come later. Whatever is proposed for Belfield and the compact area around it is mainly the university buildings themselves— libraries, laboratories, classrooms, dissecting rooms, whatever buildings the different faculties require—they are to be placed on this site.

This hope has been expressed—and I should think this should be considered as part of the plan that is in contemplation—that the university, having bought so well in the neighbourhood of the city, will have ground to spare, where I understand it is proposed to make a gift of sites to the different ecclesiastical and Church bodies who are interested in the higher education of the youth of this country. It is understood that some of them have agreed, and it is expected that others will agree, that they will build hostels at the Merville side, instead of those which some of them have at the moment in the City of Dublin and which some have contemplated but have been held up from building because of their knowledge that this plan was afoot.

The general idea is—as I understand the matter—that the hostels will provide the residential side and the hostels will carry out the old Newman idea of the halls, with the halls under the control of people who can attend to the standard of conduct and the morals of those who go to reside there. If that plan, which has only gone that length, goes to fulfilment, we will have carried out in our day the idea of a university that was Newman's and we will have done it under good conditions. It cannot be said that it has been done too soon. That problem has been growing over the years—like many another problem—and it got no attention from 1932 to 1947. It did get some attention in the years we were in office. If that appears to the Taoiseach to be funny——

It is, really.

——would he explainthe joke? It was no joke to the university authorities. They could not laugh.

Why did the University College authorities not put up their demands? What demands have been put up by University College that have been turned down by the Government?

They got one-third of what they asked for.

Answer the question I have put.

I will answer it. In 1947 when they put up the demand for funds they got one-third.

What funds?

Funds for the staff. They got one-third.

The question there is the question of salaries, is it not? That is a different question from the question you suggest.

It is a different question. It is the one we tackled first. We gave one-third of what they asked for, after a Civil Service Commission had inquired into it. A rival of theirs had no commission of inquiry and got 100 per cent. of their demands. The joke is not too good a one. They did make their demands. They wanted the human element attended to first and it was after they got that side eased that they proceeded to the other problem.

They had the other problem long before that.

What was that other problem?

The problem of trying to get buildings.

What did the Taoiseach do with regard to buildings for University College, Dublin in all his 15 years since 1932? Would he answer that question?

When I get up to answer, I will answer it.

Then refrain until you do.

I was asked a question and answered it. To my knowledge there was no application of any kind for buildings or further accommodation put up to us during our time which was turned down.

The buildings were allowed to fall into rack and ruin, and the answer is: "Why did they not ask for it?" When this plan is projected, the acting-Minister for Finance comes in and says: "We did not approve; we were not consulted; they acted on their own responsibility."

Why is the sum down in the Estimate?

I do not understand. The sum was brought in here with the statement that the college authorities acted on their own responsibility, the Government was not consulted, the Government did not approve.

I do not know. I have not seen it.

Some of the Deputy's Party voted against the Estimate.

I have not seen that.

That was said in the closing remarks. All these remarks are to be found in one page of the Dáil Debates. This trouble has arisen over the 15 years, like many another thing I am going on to—and apparently the excuse now is going to be: "Why did they not make a demand?"

Yes, surely. The governing body and the staff ought to know more about it than the Government.

And if they did make a demand for their livelihood and they got one-third of what they asked for——

The demand that has been suggested is for accommodation.

——would they be likely to come and ask for more Theirdemand for staff requirements was turned down and they were given one-third.

That is not an answer to the question. You have been making suggestions which are completely false.

I have been making the suggestion that the problem of the university authorities had been growing and was aggravated over the years and was not adverted to by the Government.

Why did they not make the demand?

So that is the line to be taken on it, that they were to go hat in hand and beg for it?

They had to get public money.

They had to make the claim?

They made the claim for what really had to be put in the foreground, which clearly was the staff requirements, their own lives. That was met in the way I have mentioned—they got one-third of what they asked for; and others were treated better.

That, however, as I say, is only one facet of what we have to consider over the country in the 15 years. I said earlier to-night that I thought Deputy Hickey's protestations probably were going to bear fruit at last. I do not know whether what he speaks of in the way of money, circulation and credit is going to be accepted in full, but at any rate there is some new approach. Deputy Derrig substituted for the absent Minister for Finance at the Gresham Hotel at the end of November. Two things emerged from his speech—one is a recognition that there are in this country resources that might have been developed and which had been neglected. Added to that, there was the demand put by him, for the Government and the banks, that they might expect as time went on anenlargement of the banks' portfolios of Irish Government and municipal securities. Am I right in saying that that speech was a confession and admission of neglect of resources, the resources that could have been developed and have not been developed? If there are undeveloped resources in this country, who bears the blame for that? Is it the people who held Government sway here for 15 years, or is there anyone else to take the responsibility on their shoulders? Now, with the recognition that there are resources that have to be developed, resources that have been neglected, we get this approach, that it is only legitimate to expect an enlargement—the mild word "enlargement"—as time goes on of the banks' portfolios of Irish Government and municipal securities.

One could ask what attention was paid to these undeveloped resources from 1932 onwards? What effort was made by the Government to get from the people or from the banks the money they are now seeking and which they say it is legitimate they should expect as time goes on to have from the banks? What did they do in the way of capital development over 15 years? I argued that the other night and gave a list of the loans that were looked for by the Fianna Fáil Government in its 15 years of office. I leave out the conversion loan, as that was not new money. I also leave out the loan which was floated to pay England £10,000,000, as that was not for the development of this country. There were three loans other than those two—one of £6,000,000, one of £7,000,000 and one of £8,000,000— £21,000,000 in the whole 15 years, of which the public subscribed £13,000,000. What they got by way of public subscription was £13,000,000 in 15 years, or if we take all Government funds and social security and other funds brought in, £21,000,000 over the 15 years. Now we are going mad for loans. We are offering to give the public 5 per cent. and 4¾ per cent. A financier I quoted a fortnight ago said that the first loan was badly timed. It came at a point when interest rates were high and when it could safely be forecast that they would drop. TheGovernment went ahead and followed up with a loan this year. In fact, the Taoiseach has announced that a national loan every year is now the ideal. Over the 15 years when the country's resources were not being developed, were lying there unused, all that the Government could think of doing was to raise £13,000,000 from the public—and to try to raise £21,000,000. What did they put the money into? Mainly, they put it into electricity development and into the services under the Postal and Telegraph Acts. These are two things which, once started, have no element of risk or insecurity about them. Money floats into Post Office development. It is hardly to be regarded as risk money at all. The same can be said—certainly between 1932 and 1947 —of electrical development in this country.

The Taoiseach stated recently—I think it was in Kilkenny where he was attending some celebration which was being held for Deputy Derrig, the Minister for Lands—when announcing the loan of this year, that he hoped people would subscribe their savings to that loan. He said that that was the only way in which national development could be carried on and that, if the people failed to fill the loan with their savings, other less desirable means of finance would have to be sought or would be sought.

Speaking in this House on the 7th November, 1952—a little more than a year ago—of the two loans for which I was responsible, Deputy Major de Valera said, as reported at column 1259 of the Official Report, that there was damage to the country's credit by letting expenditure far exceed revenue. Then he added:—

"... there was a damaging situation that we were borrowing more and more—going to the well too often for water—and naturally people were asking where it would all end and what would happen next."

May we now ask the question: Where will it all end and what will happen next? Surely the Taoiseach must realise that the people want an explanation of this peculiar change ofpolicy. In the years that the locusts have eaten from us, during which virtually no capital development took place in this country—the 15 years of their long sway—£21,000,000 was gathered in and most of it was spent on electricity development or on the postal and telegraph services. That was a period in which men emigrated and in which men who remained at home became unemployed. It was a period during which the standard of living in this country went down gradually and the value of money decreased gradually. Over that period, there was this dearth of development. When we bent ourselves to make up for the arrears left over those 15 years, we were met with hostility, with a vile propaganda, with talk about putting the country into pawn and with the display of the pawnbroker's calling plastered around the city. Then the present Government decided on a loan policy and on development. But the warning was given by Deputy Major de Valera—the warning not to go to the well too often because people would ask where it will all end and what will happen next.

The Taoiseach went to Kilkenny about the autumn of this year and spoke of the necessity of people giving their savings to the Government as otherwise less desirable methods of finance would have to be adopted. Finally, we come to a speech made by Deputy Derrig, the Minister for Lands, at the end of the month of November, in which he said that the Government feel it is legitimate that they should expect an enlargement of the banks' proportion of Irish Government municipal securities. Is this the screw to be put on the banks at last? Is this what the Taoiseach would describe, as he expressed it in Kilkenny in the early autumn, as, "less desirable methods of finance"? Is this something less desirable than getting the people's savings and the bribing of some of them with a greater interest rate on the loan? Where are we? What is the money to be used for? Are we now, at last, going to get a speed up with regard to the development of the unused and neglected resources of this country?

I gave figures here the other night about the early efforts of Fianna Fáil in regard to development in this country. I tried to find out the objectives to which we put the money borrowed over these 15 years. The items that occured, year after year, in the below-the-line services were the Shannon scheme, telegraph and telephone services, the Road Fund and moneys for the relief of unemployment. I found that, until the year 1936-37, these were the main objectives of any borrowing done in that period. After that, there was a speed up. Local loans came into the picture in 1936-37; air services in 1939-40; tourists in 1943-44; the National Stud in 1946-47. Some attention was also paid to turf in that last year. Was that what the present Government and its Leader thought was a proper programme of capital works from 1932 onwards? They were given a chance, if they had read some of the old documents, to get other objectives.

When the Shannon scheme was projected as many years ago as 1923, the people who projected that scheme —a German firm—wrote a special chapter on electricity in Irish agriculture. They spoke of the use of electricity as being widespread on the farms of Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and Denmark "where central generation of power and the use of long-distance transmission and distribution systems have made it possible to bring cheap electricity to the farmer." They spoke of the dullness of life in the country, the hard-working conditions and the low wages which agriculture could only afford to pay. They said that these circumstances, combined with the attraction of life in the towns and cities, first caused a shortage of labour and a corresponding rise in its cost on the German farms. They said that migratory labour was then resorted to—something of which we have had experience here in the past 20 years. The chapter went on to speak of the problems of lessening the dullness and hardships of the farmer's life. It pointed out that the progress has naturally been slow because the prejudice of conservative farmers, based on centuries of habit, has had to be overcome. Thechapter pointed out that as Ireland depends mainly on agriculture for exports the Irish farmer must be as well equipped as his Continental competitor and that, accordingly, he can neglect no development that will bring about reductions in production costs. The benefits which electricity brings were pointed out as well as how increasing use was made of it on the Continent as a result of propaganda and instruction. The chapter continued:—

"It will take many years before an electric transmission system is built which reaches to the majority of the farms"—

that is about Ireland—

"but the present scheme will make future development at least possible and a beginning has to be made somewhere."

Written in 1923, that chapter ended with these words: "On the Continent it was made more than 20 years ago." When the experts reported on that in 1925, they said that they were aware that in Ireland it is thought that the rural population would be unwilling to introduce the use of electricity to an extent worth mentioning. Then they gave their views. They spoke in the following terms in 1925:—

"In all civilised countries the electrification of the agricultural districts is regarded as a desirable object...."

And they continued:—

"It would, therefore, be advisable for the Free State, as soon as possible, to prepare for and guide this development."

I have quoted from two reports—one made in 1923 and the other made in 1925. The Shannon scheme was carried through. The people who got hold of that scheme in 1932 delayed—I think until the war had started—before they thought of adding anything even to the generating system that Shannon supplied. It was many years after that before they first began to talk about rural electrification.

When they did even get a schemeput up by the E.S.B. with regard to rural electrification, they delayed on it and starved it of finance. We went in and made finance easier in respect of the present generation by offloading it on to future generations, but they were not two months back in office until they had damaged our scheme of financing and had gone back to their own tried-and-found-wanting system of the years up to 1947.

There were plans for future developments at hand and there was material of a warning type issued to the Government as to how resources were being neglected and as to the necessity for involving the people's savings at home in development work at home; but Deputy Major de Valera, speaking in this House on 12th November, 1952, showed where he and his Party stood, so far as these famous sterling assets were concerned. He said, at column 1410:—

"If we are at the point where those assets are to be invested in the sterling area, where are you going to invest them better than in the British Treasury, which is really the Central Bank of the sterling area?"

After all the protestation Deputy Hickey had made here before Deputy de Valera came into the House—there were people here who could instruct him with regard to what Deputy Hickey said—we have Deputy Major de Valera in 1952 saying: "Where better can you have these invested than in the British Treasury, which is really the Central Bank of the sterling area?" That was, no doubt, a reflection of the policy he got explained to him in his Party rooms. It had never been explained here so clearly that the Government's attitude was that the British Treasury represented the Central Bank of the sterling area and was a first-class place for investment. That was the plan, so far as Deputy Major de Valera was concerned.

With regard to these sterling assets, we were told that we were disinvesting at too fast a rate—that there was no control and that things were haphazard. All the bogies were trotted out in the late part of 1951 and leadingup to the Budget of 1952. As part of that programme, we were given this famous White Paper referred to by Deputy Matthew O'Reilly to-night. He apparently still thinks a good deal of it, although very few other people give it any reference. It was presented to each House of the Oireachtas by the Minister for Finance in October, 1951. The phrase which has often been quoted in this House and which I want to quote again is on page 8, where we are told:—

"The current output figures for our staple exports rule out the possibility of any large increase in the volume of exports in the near future to bridge the gap."

Certain statistics follow with regard to the number of animals in the country and the paragraph ends also on page 8:—

"The inescapable conclusion is that any substantial relief in the balance of payments can only be achieved by importing less."

It was on that paper that the Government founded its policy and plan for a couple of years. I do not know who wrote that paper or produced that piece of statistical information, but, in the light of after events, whoever did it ought definitely to be suspect as a counsellor in Government Buildings and if a group of people combined to produce these two phrases, they ought, as a group, to be suspect for what they have produced to the public and made the foundation of Government policy.

Let us test it by events. In October, 1951, we are solemnly told that we must rule out the possibility of any large increase in the volume of exports in the near future and that the inescapable conclusion is that any substantial relief in the balance of payments can only be achieved by importing less. I take the Central Bank Report for the year ended March 31st of this year and on paragraph 10 I find certain figures with regard to the balance of trade. The comment at paragraph 10 is:—

"The improvement in the balance of payments in 1952 as compared with1951 has been due mainly to a reduction in the import excess on merchandise account, reflecting at current prices, a 16 per cent. drop in the value of imports and a 25 per cent. rise in the value of exports."

This was what the inescapable conclusion had to avoid—there was no possibility of a large increase in the volume of exports in the near future. The date of that again is October, 1951, and the bank, writing about the year 1952 in 1953, says there was a 25 per cent. rise in the value of exports as compared with 1951 and the volume of imports was 17 per cent. down and the volume of exports 22 per cent. up. Then, they draw attention to the fact that there was, in consequence, a significant rise in the proportion of the imports paid for by exports. However, the Government accepted that view, that inescapable conclusion that they must cut down imports and that there was no way out of it by increasing the volume of exports.

Let us see what they have done with regard to these imports. The table at the foot of page ten gives the trade imports for the years 1928, 1938 and 1948 and then the three consecutive years 1950, 1951 and 1952. 1951 is the year that caused all the trouble. The value of the imports that year was £204,000,000, having been £159,000,000 the year before and £136,000,000 in 1948. The figure for 1952 is given as £172,000,000 and this year a forecast of mine would be that they will be somewhere in the region of £180,000,000 to £185,000,000.

Let me take the average of the bad year 1951 and the two years before it. In these three years, the value was £494,000,000, an average of £164,000,000. I want that average compared with the cut-down imports under the sway of that pamphlet which brought the imports to £172,000,000, in excess of the average for these three years, even including the bad year 1951. One can take any one of these averages. One can take them over four years—I have taken them over three years. The inescapable conclusion from this is that imports are rising again and that imports in 1952, when efforts were madeto keep them down, had gone above the average for the three preceding years, even including the very bad year 1951.

Let me turn to the other side of it. The possibility had to be ruled out of any large increase in the volume of exports. I take the figures first. Exports in the year 1948 were £49,000,000. In 1947, they were much lower. In 1949, although towards the end of the war we had succeeded in getting them up, £49,000,000 was the figure. That was the circumstance left to us after 15 years of Fianna Fáil Government—our exports that year were running less than £50,000,000. In 1950, they had been raised to £72,000,000, and, in 1951, when the possibility of any large increase in the volume of exports had to be put aside, they went to £81,000,000. In 1952, they had gone over the £100,000,000 mark. When that paper was discussed in this House, Deputy Dillon and the rest of us prophesied with the greatest confidence that exports would be over the £100,000,000 mark in that year. They have gone over it and they are going higher this year.

When we get the new figures, we must delve into them to see whether the complacency of Deputy O'Reilly will be sustained.

He tells us that whatever increase there has been in exports was due to the Fianna Fáil efforts since 1951 and not to the efforts of those who preceded them for those critical three years. That is the picture I want to get out for the people of this country over Christmas, that the advisers of the Government on whom the Government pledged themselves and on whose forecast they built their plans have been falsified immediately by events. Their inescapable conclusion was a wrong conclusion and even though it was regarded as inescapable and the Government pretended to drive towards it, they have not been able to collapse imports in any significant way. The one possibility that had to be ruled out, according to the Government themselves and their advisers, was regarding any large increase in the volume of exports in the near future. Let there be no quarrel as to value and volume. That is dealt with in the report.

We know that was a nonsensical policy. We pointed out that a policy which was built on those phrases was bound to make for austerity in the country, and that that austerity was unnecessary. When we said it would cause hunger and hardship it did. It has helped greatly towards emigration. We said it would increase unemployment. The figures have shown that that is true. The people would not have minded and could even have suffered tightening their belts or facing up to emigration and unemployment if the circumstances demanded it but we showed in our argument that this policy was an unnecessary one and that these two rather firm foundations of the White Paper were rotten foundations. It took only two years' imports and exports returns to show how completely wrong that forecast was.

I do not know whether that policy is still being assisted by the people who brought out that pamphlet. If that policy is still being made by these people, surely the Government should take a lesson from what happened already and should realise that those forecasts were bad and that it took a very short time, indeed, to have them falsified to the knowledge of the public.

The Government, having had their two years of austerity, now with their compact group in the House in favour of the cutting of the subsidies, the imposition of hardships on the people, pretending to be complacent with unemployment and the cost of living and rise in the cost of living, the emigration figures and the rise in those, apparently have a new policy, something which is a despairing policy, and the banks are going to be approached. The first hint has been given that it is legitimate, surely, for the Government to expect that over the years there will be an increase in the holdings of the banks' portfolios for Government and municipal investments. I want to know what is below the surface in this. How far have the banks been brought into consultation? People are asking whether Deputy Derrig, Minister for Lands, operating that night as deputy Minister for Finance, was sent there, so to speak, as a warning to the banks, whether they had notice of this changeof policy and, if so, people would be glad to know what has been their new attitude towards this new orientation of policy.

I come back to the question I asked a fortnight ago, because I believe it is pivotal to the proper system of banking in this country. When the recent loan was floated we were told it was for £25,000,000. The public were asked to subscribe as to £20,000,000. The banks, we were told, had agreed to take up £5,000,000. The interest rate —I am taking in such things as discount—was about 4¾ per cent. Did the banks get 4¾ per cent. for the £5,000,000 they took up? I think we are entitled to have an answer to that. If so, does the Government believe they were entitled to get that return on the money? If the Government have investigated that, did they believe that the banks shed any better securities in order to buy £5,000,000 worth of the last national loan? If they have done that, has there been any investigation as to whether the banking system has suffered with regard to security, liquidity or return? I think we are entitled to have an answer to that.

I suggest that the banks will be found to have done what they told us they were going to do when we were discussing the £5,000,000 loan to the Dublin Corporation. They first of all pretended and made their case on the sale of investments and the dangers of the sale. They went into detail as to the interlocking of their whole system of investments and said that if one was pulled apart from the other it might change the whole field judged by the standards of security, liquidity and return. For a whole long day they had argued on these terms and made their case on that sort of proposition. At the end of the day, when they had agreed to give the £5,000,000, they laughed at the idea that anybody would sell securities. The banking system permitted a double entry in the books and the £5,000,000 was at the disposal of the corporation. That is an example in a theoretical way of what Deputy Hickey spoke of.

If the banks are manipulating credit in order to put £5,000,000 at the Government's disposal and if it is a manipulation of credit, they have no right to demand or get 4¾ per cent. or any other interest except the operational expenses having regard to the nature of that particular transaction. I said the other night that, once the banks yielded at the time of the Dublin Corporation loan, they had given their whole case away. I believe they know that now. Therefore, I believe they will insist that the present Government will give them their interest rate the same as any depositor or investor gets a return of the 4¾ per cent. type. I think that if they do not ask for that, then we will have the beginnings of a new banking system. We will then have a clear recognition of this pretence that is behind the whole banking system here.

Deputy Hickey will be with me in the ordinary operation of the bank where there is certain real money. One goes to the bank. Under that foundation they rear a whole credit superstructure and they may, if the demand is there, multiply by ten in respect of the credit or what they use as credit the actual amount of savings that come to them from small traders. For years they have been playing a very definite lie as far as the community is concerned pretending that they were only lending out depositors' money.

I was amazed that after the years of education on this matter to find that Deputy Lehane could, during the week, say that a difficulty was going to be created in this country on account of the rivalry in regard to socialistic schemes and that depositors would take their deposits out of the banking system here.

As regards Deputy Lehane and Deputy Briscoe, some of their remarks bear the same interpretation. Both these Deputies apparently believe that the banks to-day are operating like the old moneylenders, that they get in money and they lend that money out and that there is nothing in the banking system other than that. Anybody who has studied, even in a mild way, this whole matter knows here is notruth in that suggestion. As far as any plan that I have ever put forward in this House goes, I never wanted to interfere, so to speak, with real savings, with money that was put into the banking system. The people who own real savings could get a better return while the community could benefit better by an extension of the credit system and by the issuing of credit terms. That is what we have to aim at and that can be achieved while it gives complete and entire security to the depositors. The community can benefit and we can get idle men and idle materials brought together in so far as money has any function in bringing them together for desirable projects.

The Taoiseach has denied here several times that during the year there has been any restriction in respect of bank credit. I do not know whether his denial goes to the point of saying that there has been none or that the Government has not authorised any. Nobody believes that there has not been a restriction of bank credit in the country and it will weaken the Taoiseach's authority in the community if he countinues to say that because it is entirely discredited in the minds of any business men or traders in the whole community. If he says the Government were not behind the banks in restricting credit, that is a different matter, but the answer that should come to him and the answer he has to meet on that is that the Government should have taken action with regard to issuing credit in the circumstances that developed here in late 1951 and over the whole of the year 1952. There was a restriction of credit, a restriction of credit that was openly announced. I read in this House a quotation from the Governor of the Bank of Ireland in 1951, who said that even good projects, that is, good from the bankers' point of view, would have to be put aside and await more propitious times. Is there any meaning to be taken from that except that banks were restricting credit even for what they chose to call worth-while schemes? The Government said that that had nothing to do with them, that they were not responsible. I say they were indirectly and I answer again that they should have beenresponsible for taking steps against that particular situation which had developed.

Can anybody read the speeches of the Minister for Finance and of the various Ministers in the autumn of 1951 leading up to the Budget in 1952 and not believe that in the background, in the minds of the Government, there was clearly a policy of credit restriction? Would credit restriction not fit in with the policy of the 1952 Budget? Would the issuing of credit help the Budget of 1952? Would it not have run counter to whatever the Minister was proposing and all he thought he would achieve by his policy in 1952?

This country, through its Government, is committed to the slashing of subsidies. The policy was to make living dearer. People had to buy the commodities that had been subsidised. If they bought those at a higher rate, as it was expected they would, they would have less money in their pockets for spending on other things. Tobacco and beer were taxed. The Budget expectation was not that there would be less consumption of those things because they budgeted for an increase. The Budget policy would have gone astray if people stopped consuming beer and tobacco to any great extent because then they would have had the money in their pockets to spend on those articles which the Government wanted to put them off buying. The slashing of the food subsidies and the tax on beer and tobacco were all aimed at the same thing, to diminish the amount of money people had for spending, and the only policy that will fit in with that is credit restriction. Accordingly, in the issuing of credit, the interest rate on loans was raised. It was all a plan to stop people spending. The reason, according to this famous White Paper, was that the balance of trade was against us and we had the inescapable conclusion and the thing we could not count on: we cannot raise exports therefore, we must decrease imports. Imports can be directed by physical means, by control at the ports. They can also be controlled in another way, that is, the monetary way: diminish people's incomesby making them pay more for the things they have to buy and then there is less money to be spent on the commodities flowing through the ports. The only policy that fits in with that scheme is the policy of credit restriction. Credit restriction came and the people who were responsible for that can point to the Government and say: "We are acting fully in accord with what the representatives of the people proposed on that occasion."

Deputy Mathew O'Reilly asked the question: Do people here believe in what he called a State bank? If he meant do people here believe that such things as credit ought to be under public control, I say for myself, "Yes." Whether that involves a State bank or not is a matter of machinery and I do not propose to pursue that question. When the Central Bank Act was going through, we argued vehemently from this side of the House that both the volume of credit and its direction should be brought under control and suggested the only proper people to control it were the public authority, the Government of the day. We argued that many, many years ago, and in this House I could read from an article of the then editor of The Economist, in which he said that control of credit in the two ways which I have mentioned was the situation in the greater part of the world and the language he used about it indicated that he himself was inclined to accept that as something that was bound to come and in which he saw no danger. We thought we could get the Central Bank set up with definite powers and that there would be authority to control credit and its manipulation and manufacture in the way I have stated.

Supposing our plan had been accepted. Supposing the Government of the day was in control of the banking and financial situation here to the extent that they could either enlarge or diminish credit and direct it, say, as opposed to cinema and entertainment palaces, to other things that are showing better signs and a better chance of productivity, what would have happened over the last couple ofyears? Surely the present Government cannot deny that in accord with the Budget policy of 1952, if they had control of credit, they would immediately have operated a severe restriction of credit. They might have manipulated that restricted credit in a better direction than it was, but that there would have been full-hearted restriction of credit there can be no doubt.

I still think credit ought to be under control even though, as I say, possibly if it had been under the control of the Government over the last couple of years, it would have meant an even fiercer restriction of credit than we had. I believe that would have made a better situation because then there would not have been the possibility of the Government sitting back and washing its hands of the whole matter and saying: "That is none of our business; we never told the banks to restrict credit." The Government would have had to act as they should have acted, and their policy would then have been to deal with the financial policy not merely through subsidies and through the increased prices for the commodities people would continue to buy. We might have seen Government policy exemplified in a ruthless way, with credit being narrowed and the ravages of the past few years increased and probably made more severe than they have been.

Again, I suggest that would be a better scheme. The Government ought to be in charge of these things, and Deputies ought to know that when credit is restricted it either is with the approval of or by Order of the Government, and that there is some different policy being operated to minimise whatever the banks are doing. I still stand for that. It would be disastrous for the community if the old bogies were trotted out again and if public timidity were increased. I think, however, we have gone beyond that stage now. At the time that we were in Government we had to go cautiously because the present Government were then in opposition and were ready to carry on a most damaging propaganda against us on these plans which, to a certain extent they have now adopted as well as the policies that we had.

The last two years have had a very definite educative purpose. Folks have now come to recognise by hard experience the importance of the banking system. They have come also to realise the effect of a bad banking policy. I believe that the community generally agree with the views which I am expressing, and that it would be far better if the Government were clear and distinct on this question. We saw, however, that Government policy was not merely making the lives of the people harder but how they carried out their plans of austerity, afraid to have any easing of credit because that would have meant the spending of more money. We have seen also all the evil effects there were in respect of imports, particularly. The people who wrote the White Paper said there was one inescapable conclusion and that was to cut imports. That is the policy that was tried, and that led to all the hardships of the last two years. I have said that over the years the policy of the Government was to neglect the resources of the country. That neglect amounted to an appreciation of the fact that there were certain results that could not be avoided. We have had the burden of unemployment over all the years.

The policy which the Government now in power had was really a policy of wage restriction. Preparations for further wage restrictions were made in October, 1947. A minute made by the present Minister for Industry and Commerce dated 16th October, 1947, stated: "On the assumption that discussions with the Trade Union Congress will not result in any agreement on the stabilisation of wage rates, legislation will be required and it is necessary that immediate steps will be taken to prepare a draft Bill." The main purpose of the Bill was then set out—that wages must be again stood still as at the date of October, 15th, 1947. The second thing was that the protection of the Trades Disputes Act was withdrawn from any strike the purpose of which was to compel an employer to pay wages above the prevailing rate. At the end of the minute there was the note: "The duration of the Bill will be two years. Penalties should be severe."

There is no standstill on profits in that.

It was proposed to the community to have a standstill in wages. We know what happened, how wages were kept down ruthlessly and how profits and prices were allowed to rise. I have often produced here the chart which was made by the Statistical Department showing wages and industrial earnings. When one studies the curves, one sees the cost of living rising on the upper side and wages kept low. What is in between the balloon-shape represents what was cut out of the lives of those who were depending on wages and industrial earnings for their sustenance during the war years. That represents something that has never been given back to them. In 1947, it was proposed to use that machinery once more. When the Budget of 1952 was introduced, there was the pivotal phrase in it which I have so often read to the House, that:—

"The Government ... are satisfied that as incomes generally have already advanced more than the cost of living, and as essential foodstuffs are no longer scarce, there is now no economic or social justification for a policy of subsidising food for everybody."

Wages and earning had advanced more than the cost of living and that shocked the Government into cutting the subsidies. Was not that a continuation of the policy which they had operated during the war when wages were stabilised, but prices were not? That was the policy which was proposed in 1947, when new standstill legislation was contemplated. The Government was beaten then, but it turned around in 1952 and, in its Budget policy of that year, imposed exactly that policy on standstill. We know, from the lament of the present Minister for Justice in 1951, what Fianna Fáil really wanted. He lamented the increase in Civil Service salaries which, he said, would cost £700,000, and he continued:—

"The Army, the Gardaí and teachers are also entitled to increases, but the total cost is not yetdisclosed. Local Government officials will naturally expect increases also, as will workers all over the country."

That is the situation that Fianna Fáil were determined to prevent and would have prevented if three of the six lost Dublin seats had been held to give the present Taoiseach a majority. That is what they wanted to prevent and had prevented over the war years. It is what they had in contemplation in 1947.

After the lament of the present Minister for Justice, we had the Budget of 1952 with the cutting of subsidies and the policy of holding people down in their emoluments. They regretted finding the policy that was there, with no joy in the fact that the standard of living had risen and that wages had risen a bit more than the increase in the cost of living. Therefore, the benefits which the workers were enjoying must be taken from them by the subsidy policy of dearer food, and the policy of dearer beer and tobacco.

The papers have been full of the benefits of that policy—unemployment and emigration. I have a file of cuttings here taken over the years. The first is the impressions of a journalist who visited the County Clare in which, he said, there were no young women left to marry. A priest in Waterford had said that the Irish were becoming a vanishing race. We had revelations made in regard to the numbers of the Irish population in Great Britain, and more recently in London. There is an item taken from a Donegal paper of 600 people signing at the labour exchange in the small town of Bally-shannon; the notice that there had been a decline in farm workers as shown by the census of 1953, 78,000 people having left the land; the census return getting another headline: "Other Disclosures of Census Report: Fewer Young People in the Country": a statement in the Sunday Independenton February 8th, 1953, about women and girls who queue for work in Dublin; the justice in the court who said that many decent people came before him, brought up there for nonpayment of rates and his comment was that it was perfectly plain that thesepeople who were not paying their rates were not defaulters in the strict sense of the word but just could not pay on account of the big number of professional people among them.

We had also the theoretical moralising of the present Minister for Finance when he went to the University Commerce Society debate in Dublin, and proved that a full employment plan could not work; that when you got people into employment you had people competing for workers and there was a natural tendency for wages to be raised. The people would demand more and the community would break down under the strain of all those heavy wages. That is the man who, despite his policy on unemployment, was chosen to bring in the Budget, the man who believed that unless you had a policy of unemployment in the country you could not keep wages and conditions of employment down. These were the considerations that operated as a philosophy in the mind of that particular Minister.

Last year the Tánaiste had certain stunts of his own. This year his new stunt is export. We are told that unless our industries get into the export market we are doomed. Our best hopes and all the plans for raising the standard of living, ending unemployment and improving social conditions depend on our success, we are told, in the export drive. The remedy for all our frustrations is more exports, particularly from industry. The United States consultant produced a book with regard to dollar exports. That is a special type of export, I agree. I have asked some people to put a value on the products which they would consider suitable for dollar export. They left out some of the things that were going out under ordinary conditions, but I have never met anybody who put the value that the American consultant put on them —£50,000 a year. I wonder does anybody put a higher value on them? Is that what our dollar fund depends on? Is that what we depend on to have the dollars that our standard of living requires for the purchase of articles from the dollar area?

What are our chances of doing better away from the dollar markets with our industrial exports? We have, over the years, brought about a situation in which uneconomic industries are being fostered in the country and have cost the community so much that it would be a tragedy and a scandal to have them weakened to any extent. We are now told that our hope for the future depends on exporting to some markets from these industries. Do not forget the situation. You have industries promoted here under the shadow of protective tariffs that are very high. I would put the average at about 50 per cent. of the value. Yet, apparently, people pretend to have the belief that the people who can only live protected against competition from outside by tariffs of the order of 50 per cent. are going to produce goods under these conditions with which they will be able to meet competition in outside markets. In some of these markets they will have to meet protectionist devices used for the home products, but in any case, they will be in competition with people who are competing for these markets of ours and all our hopes for the future depend on getting exports of our industrial products— industrial products that are made here under very heavy protection, the ground for the protection being that these industries of ours cannot stand competition from goods manufactured elsewhere. Then we are to swing out of our own protected market and go into rivalry and competition with people whose rivalry we cannot bear at home. Our hopes for the future, all our social expenditure, all that we are trying to do in the way of relief from taxation are dependent on getting exports on these foreign markets.

That, of course, is merely a stunt, the same as when the Tánaiste in America asked Americans to invest money in Ireland. Who has stopped Americans investing money in Ireland? The same Tánaiste with his legislation in the Control of Manufactures Act. Has that policy been changed? If so, what is the reason for the change? The Tánaiste at the same time asked that the community in Canada should send us home some of our Irish emigrants tostrengthen our Irish economy. That phrase was uttered, of course, many thousands of miles away, but not many weeks away from the time when the unemployed were lying down in Dublin streets. The Tánaiste was cynical enough to address an Ottawa audience and ask them to send home some of our emigrants who had gone from Ireland to Canada—to strengthen our economy. Naturally, the question was asked would there be a special place on O'Connell Bridge if these returned Canadians wanted to lie down or would they just have to take their place with the mob that were on the streets in those days.

Now we are going to have a new investment policy. We are going to have a policy of a National Development Fund which will be discussed in a day or two. I do not know what amount of money will be raised for that immediately. I remember when a fund called the Transition Development Fund was first projected. When it was mentioned during many discussions, it was certainly understood to be something that was to be raised by taxation, and the moneys—the fruit of taxation—were to be used to tide over a certain limited period in which it was thought the costs of housing and materials for housing might be unusually high. The Transition Development Fund was expected to be a fund of £4,500,000. Very early in my period in the Government I asked how much was spent and on getting an answer to that—which was easy—I asked where was the rest of the money and, of course, there was no money. There was no fund. There had been speeches made here talking about the setting up of such a fund but there was no fund. I thought it was earmarked and lying ready for use somewhere—£4,500,000, or at least whatever was left after the one year's use that might have been made of it. There was no fund, or at least there was no money in the fund. There was some talk about Government buildings in relation to the Transition Development Fund.

That fund never was filled until after the first loan of the inter-Party Government had been achieved, and it was then that fund became a reality. We put money into that fund. It wastalked of, as I say, as something to be met out of taxation and it is interesting now to look back on the accounts of that year. There was no mention made here publicly in the House of what happened, but if you go to the Finance Accounts for the year after that in which the Transition Development Fund was supposed to have been founded you will find that there was a Budget deficit of just that amount and that was then left for borrowing. Not alone that, but it was left to the successors of the Government in the year following that in which the fund was supposed to be met; it was we, and nobody else, who put the money into that fund.

Will the National Development Fund be built in the same way? Will it be met by borrowed moneys? Will it be financed by a national loan? Will it be financed by some pressure on the banks? Will interest be paid to those who invest in the fund, who donate the moneys or subscribe the moneys for this new fund? If it is money advanced by the banks will the banks get whatever interest is paid, say, to people who invest in the national loan? What will be the rate of interest, if any, to be charged to those who use any of the proceeds of this National Development Fund?

Someone said to-night that this is a good idea: it would be flexible and it could be switched, so to speak, from place to place according as the need arose. We know where the need did arise in one by-election. Is the flexibility for the purpose of allowing the moneys to be switched to wherever they are required politically at a particular moment? Is that the new system of finance?

We have nowadays the ordinary services that are carried on the Estimates and met out of taxation. We have the capital services shown in the Book of Estimates but distinguished as being capital or of a developmental type. We have the below-the-line services. Now, in addition to all these—I suppose the Transition Development Fund has disappeared—we are to have another method of financing and another system of getting finance, namely, theNational Development Fund. Interesting questions will arise on this when we come to discuss it later on. I gave notice of a few of the points I will be inquiring into and I would like the Taoiseach, when he is replying, to enlighten the country in relation to his new policy for raising money, a policy that was forecast at the bankers' dinner by the Minister for Lands deputising for the Minister for Finance. Will this be what the Central Bank call—although I would not boggle at their description—forced loans or will it be some new system of distinguishing what I call real savings and the return that ought to be given on those from the credit structure that is erected on top of that and for which nothing will be paid except the operational cost? Is there anything in the Taoiseach's mind along those lines? Or is this some of what he previously described as the less desirable methods of finance that might have to be adopted if the owners of small savings did not hand those up to the Government for use by the Government by way of subscription to the national loan? If we get an answer to that we will know then if Deputy Hickey's observations during the years have been attended to and whether his exhortations are at last receiving the response they deserved to get much earlier.

As I listened to Deputy McGilligan's most interesting dissertation on finance, highly academic as it was, and to the words and phrases flowing so glibly from him, at times I thought this is not the man I knew so well; for once, the leopard has changed his spots and we find ourselves presented with a really progressive go-ahead individualistic Minister for Finance. I am not an economist but there are broad facts about economic matters of which we are all aware. Deputy McGilligan said that credit should be under public control, a suggestion made years ago when the Central Bank Act was under discussion. He also mentioned the amendments to the Control of Manufactures Act that he would like to see introduced. He trotted out the old suggestions about his anxiety to repatriatesterling assets and his anxiety to do something about the Central Bank in order to bring it into line with his policy. As all these ideas—many of them good, many of them excellent— came tumbling out I was carried away to a certain extent until he let us have one particular phrase which completely negatived the whole one or two hours—it felt like three hours—that we have sat here listening to him. That phrase came when he unconsciously challenged himself in the course of his own speech, when he must have felt that those of us who agree with these ideas, or some of them, must ask ourselves the question: What happened to this great Minister for Finance with the progressive ideas during the period in which he was Minister for Finance? Unconsciously he answered that question in the phrase: "We had to go slowly."

I hope that he has changed. I hope that the ideas he has put here to-night are the ideas in which he really believes, and I hope that the 20 or 30 paces from one side of the House to the other will not cause a complete reversion to the sedate, unprogressive, unimaginative, close-fisted Minister for Finance which I honestly believe theDeputy will in practice become should he ever become Minister for Finance again. I believe that in politics there is only one test and that is the test of achievement. Eloquence is a poor substitute for action and I think that, if the Deputy is tested in that way in relation to what he did when he had the power to do things, then all we have left is his eloquence.

I was equally unimpressed by his keening over the impecunious university professors, and the fact that they only got one-third of the increases they asked for on their salaries and remuneration. We would love to pay them more. We would all like to be paid what we think we are worth.

Of course, Trinity did better—100 per cent.

I do not know whether these professors came from Trinity or U.C.D. There are more important considerations than the question of what a professor in any university gets paid.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16th December, 1953.
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