On the motion to adjourn Deputy Esmonde has given notice that he would raise the subject matter of Question No. 12 on to-day's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate—Wheat Drying Plants.
The question I asked the Minister to-day was:—
"To ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will indicate if it will be possible for merchants in rural areas who install drying plants to obtain the maximum price for dried wheat payable at present only to the millers throughout the country."
I did not consider that the reply I received from the Minister was satisfactory. Therefore, it is with regret that I raise this on the adjournment. This is a matter of the greatest importance. Last year for the first time in this country a great deal of the wheat was harvested by combine harvesters and the position obtained whereby a limited number of people in this State had a licence to dry the said wheat. Therefore, on account of the wheat coming in to the millers as it did last year more or less in huge quantities at the same time these firms were totally unable to deal with the wheat that was delivered to them, with resultant hardship to the merchants who were buying wheat and more so to the farmers who were growing it and taking the risk of doing so against all the hazards of the weather. When it came to the time that they finished and cropped and harvested the wheat, instead of being able to deliver it straight away, in many cases they were held up not a question of hours but for days on end.
It is increasingly evident, I think, to anybody who knows anything about it that it will be necessary for any merchant who wishes to stay in the grain business under modern conditions utilising combine harvesters to install a drying plant. All the Deputies will appreciate that a drying plant costs thousands of pounds. The curious feature about it is that merchants or even farmers can dry oats and barley satisfactorily and are allowed to obtain for that the maximum price, but when it comes to a question of drying wheat the position that obtains in this State is that there are 36 people in the whole of Ireland who are allowed by licence to dry wheat and to obtain the maximum price for doing so. Anyone who buys a dryer can dry wheat but they would not get a licence from the Minister for Agriculture or the Department of Agriculture, as the case may be, to enable them to obtain any price for that wheat other than the maximum green price. What is the result? The result is this, that these 36 people have the monopoly. In reply to my question to-day and to supplementaries I put to him the Minister stated—and I have no doubt he believes this, but I suggest it is wrong—that these firms, merchants, farmers, whoever they may be, may make an agreement with the millers whereby they would be allowed the maximum price. My information is this, that merchants who bought dryers, and, in fact, any people in this State who have dryers and have tried to make an agreement with the millers, have not been able to make one. The millers have simply said: "We are going to dry wheat. That is our right. We have a licence to dry wheat and we are going to adhere to that." It strikes me as being entirely wrong that 36 people in a country like this should be in a position that they can decide ipso facto that they have the power to decide whether they will accept dried wheat from anybody or not. Why should they be in that position? What rights have they over and above any other citizens in this State?
I think it is a fair statement that the millers have not lost any money in Ireland over the years here. They had a good opportunity last year and they are going to have a better opportunity next year of making more money than they ever made before. The advent of lime on the land, the utilisation of lime—it is not necessary to go into why and how the farmers started using lime—but the advent of lime and concentrated fertilisers has enabled the Irish farmer to get a more economic production out of wheat than he had in years gone by. In my constituency and the Minister's, which is a tillage county the same as mine, people are ploughing land and preparing to sow wheat probably to a greater extent than they were before.
Last year we had a state of affairs whereby lorries were lined up and drivers were sitting in those lorries all night waiting to get into the mills to unload their wheat. I am not going to mention any names but I am absolutely certain that what I am saying is correct—that in any mill in Ireland at any time there was a queue waiting, and that delay was thrown back on to the merchant and on to the farmer as well. It should be perfectly easy for any farmer who grows wheat in this country to be able to dispose of it and trans-ship as soon as it is harvested, but that was not the case last year, and it is not going to be the case this year, because, as I say, the position is very much worse than it was before. It is a situation that can be very easily met. The Minister knows quite well that in his Department at the present moment they have a scheme for lending money to farmers to buy dryers. I have checked on that and I have seen the forms. He knows as well that co-operative societies have got together and bought dryers for the benefit of farmers, but they have not had the real benefit of drying grain of any sort except oats and barley. When it comes to a question of drying wheat you are back again to the old story. The monopoly steps in.
The Minister stated categorically here to me to-day—I will read what he said again:—
"It is not proposed to extend the present list of licensed wheat dealers and, therefore, merchants who are not so licensed may not purchase wheat from the growers for resale. Merchants who have drying facilities or propose to provide such facilities are, however, free to negotiate with the flour millers for the drying of wheat on their behalf."
I am not exaggerating when I say that the whole wheat harvest, the handling of the wheat harvest and the drying of the wheat, is handed over to a combine. That is the state of affairs that exists and that is what we object to here. We object to monopolies in any shape or form. The Minister probably spends, in his high office, a great deal more time in Dublin than he did originally on the land down in the country, and maybe the information he is getting from his Department is not providing the facts for him such as I am trying to make clear; but it is a known fact that there was, to put it mildly, a botch last harvest over the drying of wheat when the millers were not able to take it. They did not have the facilities for it, and if they did not have the facilities last year they are not going to have them this year.
I would ask the Minister that he would license any suitable applicant with a dryer, co-operative merchant or even a farmer, to dry wheat. After all this is a free country. Why should not anybody who grows wheat and expends capital in setting up a dryer be entitled to get the full benefit from it? Why should it be handed over to a monopolistic group? It is unfair to do that and I appeal to the Minister to rectify the situation. If the Minister does not seriously consider this matter, chaos and disorganisation will be caused in the harvest this year. If, on the instructions of the Department of Agriculture, people grow a particular crop they are then entitled to equitable treatment from the Department. It costs a certain amount of public money to insert notices in all the Irish newspapers asking the people to grow more wheat and possibly people will respond more so this year than hither to for the reasons I have stated.
The solution is a simple one and the Minister has the solution. I suggest that anybody who has the courage and initiative to spend £3,000 or £4,000 in putting in a dryer should be free to dry wheat and, having dried it, he should be entitled to the maximum guaranteed price. That should be available to anybody who is prepared to take the risk of investing money for that purpose. If the Minister considers this matter seriously he will have the thanks not only of the farmers but also of the merchants and of the people as a whole.
I think the Deputy is not fully aware of the present controls in relation to the purchase of wheat. Wheat can only be purchased by six categories under the Wheat Order. The first category is a person who purchases wheat as seed for sowing on land being cultivated by him; secondly, the licensed miller; thirdly, the registered distiller, fourthly, the licensed wheat dealer; fifthly, the holder of a seed wheat assembler's permit and, sixthly, the holder of a special permit to purchase specified quantities of wheat.
The wheat that is grown is the raw material for the miller. The drying and processing of that wheat is a highly technical job and I would ask the Deputy if, in sponsoring this motion and asking this question, he is fully aware of the difficulties that would confront farmers in finding the technicians to do this job properly. There is more at stake than the Deputy is aware of in the proper drying of wheat. If wheat is not properly dried that will mean bad flour. Bad flour will mean bad bread. Surely, after all the years of campaigning and trying to encourage people to grow wheat we are not now going to sacrifice all that has been done and all that has been said by handing over one of the most highly technical processes to farmers who have no knowledge or experience whatsoever of drying wheat, or even to the merchants who have been mentioned by the Deputy.
It is the farmer's function to grow wheat as raw material and, in growing that wheat and marketing it, he is under an obligation to see that he takes reasonable care to put it on the market in reasonably good condition. If he fulfils that obligation he is doing as much as we ask him to do. In the production of flour we ask the millers, on the other hand, to give us a high-class commodity, and unless we reserve for them the right of processing the raw material we cannot subsequently come back and tell them they have messed up the job entrusted to them. That is one of the reasons why this task of drying wheat is reserved to the millers.
There is another reason. The millers are statutorily bound and obliged to provide drying and storage facilities. They have already spent over £1,000,000 in providing those facilities. This year they are making provision to further extend drying plants and storage. Is it suggested that we should have duplication of that effort by permitting every merchant and every farmer who wishes to invest money in drying plant and storage to do so, irrespective of the fact that these facilities will not be needed? That is what the Deputy is asking us to do. If we succeed in getting sufficient storage and drying plant facilities provided by the millers we will be doing a good day's work.
If you can?
Mr. Walsh
We can. The effort is being made and we have been told by the millers they will erect this storage. I am sure Deputy Esmonde will not set himself up as an expert. I have been advised by those who are experts that this is a highly technical job and that there is grave danger that if unqualified people go into it we will not be able to manufacture flour from wheat dried as it should be dried.
Can the Minister not approve them if they install the drying plants?
Mr. Walsh
No. Why should I undertake that responsibility? My responsibility is to get wheat grown. If I succeed in doing that, I then hand it over to somebody to mill it and it is the miller's function to ensure that he produces a good article from the raw material. That is the miller's responsibility and we will not relieve him of that responsibility by bringing in a third party to do some of the work he should be doing.
Has the Minister not a responsibility for drying?
Mr. Walsh
Our bread to-day contains 75 per cent. Irish wheat. It took us over 20 years to establish wheat growing and we will not sacrifice that effort.
I am not suggesting these people should manufacture flour. I am merely suggesting they should be allowed to dry wheat.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy is asking me to permit them to destroy the raw material because it is more than likely that would happen. I will not permit that. I will not have duplication. Wheat is grown at a very high cost to the country, despite the efforts of some people who have over the years tried to persuade our farmers not to grow wheat. There are still people here who would prefer to see the flour and bread consumed here manufactured from foreign wheat. We have established the fact that we can provide as good bread with home-grown wheat properly handled and manufactured as any bread that can be baked from foreign wheat or from a mixture of Irish and foreign. I am very jealous of the record we have established in that respect.
The Deputy said that we had not the facilities to accommodate the farmers this year. We had the facilities. We have grown more wheat in the past than we grew this year, strange as it may seem to Deputies. With the advent of the combine there are many farmers and combine owners who are not taking the precautions they should take and must take if the wheat is to be marketed in proper condition. I know as well as Deputies know that many combine owners, in order to try to earn as much money as possible in the shortest time, have even tried to work through the night when the wheat was damp and not fit for harvesting. I have known many farmers who were getting anxious about their crop because they thought it was overripe and were afraid to leave it and who, even when it was damp and not in a fit condition to harvest, brought in the combine.
What precautions are taken to prevent that?
Mr. Walsh
A penalty is the only precaution we have and that is what we will have to impose on people who follow that line. If we are paying for an article, we must get it.
What about the farmers who have to leave it in the field for three or four weeks?
Mr. Walsh
In the past, before the advent of combines into the country, when we were growing barley, oats and wheat, I saw barley and wheat held for a month and five weeks.
In bags?
Mr. Walsh
Yes. It was safe and secure. It can be safe and secure even with the combine. I had barley which was harvested with the combine for six weeks this year in sacks and it was all right because it was in a fit condition when it was harvested. There is no excuse whatever for the man who tells me that because of the combine he must now get rid of wheat immediately it is harvested. He does not have to do it if he permits it to get ripe and to get dry and then have it harvested. There is no greater moisture in it than there is in corn harvested in another way if it is properly done.
The point is that the wheat is not being taken in. It is not a question of the condition in which the farmer has it.
Mr. Walsh
No matter what storage is provided, we cannot take in all the harvest in three or four weeks, even if all the merchants in the country were engaged in it. The harvest in the past covered a period of from eight to 12 weeks. With all the goodwill in the world and all the money we can invest in it. I do not believe we will have it all reaped and saved within a period of three weeks. There must be some other way of doing it. You will still have the bottlenecks created. Farmers who are anxious to use the combine must realise that they also have to take precautions, that they cannot reap corn to-day and think they can put the whole lot of it into the mill at night. It has not been done in the past, nor can it be done in the future.
Are we to spend £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 on the erection of mills and storage and drying plants at the mills and go down the country and encourage merchants and even farmers? Last year in the County Meath grants were offered to farmers to purchase small drying plants and there was only one applicant for a grant. These people must realise, as I said, that wheat is a product that must be properly treated if we are to get the best results from it. The only people who are qualified to do that at the moment, the highly technical people, are in the mills. It is not the merchants because they have no technicians to do this, and the farmers have no technicians. Until such time as our people are educated in the proper drying of wheat it must remain with the technicians who are in a position to do the work. That is why I told the Deputy this afternoon that I had no intention of deviating from the present system. It will be the responsibility of the farmers to produce the wheat in a reasonably dry condition and send it into the mills and it is the millers' function to produce good flour.
There is nothing to prevent any merchant or dealer, if he thinks he can get a sufficient quantity of wheat from farmers in his locality, from going to the miller and telling him he is prepared to co-operate with him and to erect a drying plant with the sanction of the miller; but the miller will be held responsible. It is not the merchant who would be responsible in that case. The miller is the man who is responsible to us for the manufacture of flour and not the agent or dealer who buys the wheat. He is not our agent; he is the agent of the miller. That is the system that I am going to follow.
The Deputy may rest assured that every effort is being made to get sufficient drying plant and storage; and as a result of last year's experience and of the greater quantity of wheat grown I can tell the Deputy that the millers are making every effort to provide extra drying plants and extra storage for the next harvest and that the people who are anxious to go into it need not invest the money they may wish to invest. Again, for the Deputy's information, I can tell him that I have talked with farmers' organisations in regard to this matter. He asked why they would not get the dried wheat price. I talked to them and pointed out to them the amount of money that is there for drying. It would not be worth their while drying wheat for the amount of money they would be allowed for drying. The sum of money covers many factors. You have transport costs, storage costs, interest on investment and all these things. In addition to that, let me tell the Deputy that the farmer who dries his wheat with a 23 per cent. moisture content will lose almost two stones of wheat, which at the present price is worth 8/-. After having these discussions with the farmers' organisations, they came to the conclusion that it would be better for them to leave it in the hands of the millers, and that is what I propose to do.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, February 17th