Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Feb 1954

Vol. 144 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 16—Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

Aire Gníomhaitheach Airgeadais (Proinsias Mac Aogáin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £125,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1954, chun Pinsean, Aoisliúntas, Cúitimh (lena n-áirítear Cúiteamh do Lucht Oibre), agus Liúntas agus Aiscí Breise agus eile, faoi na hAchta Aoisliúntais, 1834 go 1947, agus faoi Reachta iolartha eile; Pinsean, Liúntas agus Aiscí Eisreachtúla arna ndámhadh ag an Aire Airgeadais; táillí do Dhochtúirí Réitigh agus corrtháillí do Dhochtúirí; Cúitimh agus locaíocht eile i leith Díobhál Pearsanta; etc.

Tá suim de Chéad Fiche-Cúig Míle Punt sa bhreis ar an méid a soláthraíodh de dhíth don Bhóta seo. Is le haghaidh aoisliúntais don Gharda Síochána atá an méid iomlán sa bhreis ag dul, agus sé an fáth atá leis an bhreis-chaiteachas ná go bhfuil céadchodán mór den Gharda Síochána i dteideal éirí as ar pinsean anois agus gur imigh níos mó díobh i mbliana ná mar a bhí súil leis. Ina theannta sin tá na deontaisí aoisliúntais níos mó toisc gur hardaíodh páigh an Fhórsa ón chéad lá d'Aibreán, 1953.

Mr. Dillon

I was referring on the previous business to the statement that I seem to remember the Taoiseach making. He says my memory does not serve me well but my recollection was that he rose here in very solemn majesty at an early part of the year and said that he had laid down by fiat the general law in the Government that there were to be no more Supplementary Estimates because he felt that the burden of taxation on the taxpayers of this country had reached a level which it was quite intolerable to think of further increasing and that there was grave danger of detriment to the social weal being done if there was any further increase. I remember everybody was greatly impressed and all the Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party were shaking hands with one another in the benches that the Taoiseach had at last spoken. Now, the shower of Supplementary Estimates has begun to descend upon us.

I do not claim to be any very sophisticated scholar of the Irish language but I make no apology for saying that one single word of what the acting-Minister for Finance said I did not understand. One would want to be a student of Greek, Arabic or Sanskrit to understand it because it was barely Irish at all, what he read out. It does him great credit to wade through these O'Growneyesque depositions which are prepared for him and which he tries to read out for us in the House but, as he cannot speak Irish and his pronunciation is so grotesque that no one but scholars could conceivably understand him, I suggest that when the acting-Minister for Finance makes this gesture, he ought to circulate a translation of what he said. I challenge any Irish speaker in this House, did he understand a word of what the Minister read out? It gratifies me to hear men speaking the Irish language here but it is notorious that the acting-Minister for Finance cannot speak Irish and it is ridiculous for him to be getting up and laboriously trying to read out documents that he cannot read and then triumphantly sitting down, leaving the House in complete darkness as to the purpose of the Supplementary Estimate he has introduced.

I want to make it quite clear that both amongst native speakers of the language and amongst those who have learned it at school and amongst those who do not know it at all there is a common ignorance of the meaning of what the Minister read out to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is all the time talking in English of the Irish language.

Mr. Dillon

No, I am talking of the utter impossibility of understanding what the Minister said in justification of his Estimate, and I want to make it perfectly clear that he read out, or tried to read out, a very well-prepared document, which was prepared for him in Irish and which he sought to read out with singular lack of success. There may be those who imagined that he was speaking extempore. He was not. It is an abuse of our procedure.

Mr. J. Brennan

The Deputy did not even listen to the Minister. He treated him with contempt. He talked to another Deputy.

Captain Cowan

May I ask Deputy Dillon to speak clearly? I can only hear an odd word here and there.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would like that the Estimate, as circulated in the White Paper, should be discussed.

Mr. Dillon

Surely the Minister's statement in introducing the Estimate ought to be discussed?

An Ceann Comhairle

The amount of money that is in the White Paper should be discussed.

Mr. MacCarthy

The Deputy's implied reflection on O'Growney and O'Growney's Irish should not go unchallenged.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to challenge anything except the meaning of what the Minister said in introducing the Estimate. I gather that more members of the Civic Guard have resigned than was anticipated, but it seems astonishing that at the beginning of the year there could not be in the possession of the Department of Justice or the Department of Finance a sufficiently accurate forecast of the numbers of men, to avoid the necessity for a Supplementary Estimate amounting to 25 per cent. of the total original Estimate. The House is entitled to some better explanation than we have got so far.

Yesterday we were discussing an Estimate where the Minister for Health had made a slight underestimate and was obliged to bring in a Supplementary Estimate amounting to 80 per cent. of the original Estimate. This Estimate now represents 25 per cent. of the original Estimate. Bearing in mind the undertaking and direction given by the Taoiseach at the beginning of the financial year I would imagine Ministers would have tried to do more than Ministers are doing to justify their patent disregard of the policy of the Minister for Finance. Perhaps it is that the acting-Minister for Finance has reversed the finance policy of his colleague, the Minister for Finance, in his absence. If he has he should say so now. The Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, constantly tells us that one of the great constitutional principles of this State is the joint responsibility of Governments.

An Ceann Comhairle

Constitutional principles do not fall for discussion now.

Mr. Dillon

I am suggesting that the constant introduction of Supplementary Estimates represents a very serious departure from the alleged policy of the Minister for Finance. Has there been a change of policy—one policy when the cat is away and another policy when the cat is back again?

An Ceann Comhairle

What is up for discussion is the proposed expenditure as set out on the White Paper. This is a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I understood that the policy of the Minister for Finance was that he was giving no extra expenditure over the original Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy made that statement when the Estimate was being introduced it might be relevant. Clearly, it is not relevant now when the House allowed the Estimate to be introduced. The only thing that falls for discussion is the amount and the way it is going to be expended.

Mr. Dillon

The Chair told me that I could not discuss an Estimate on the occasion of its introduction.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not say any such thing.

Mr. Dillon

I did not know what the Estimate was for or anything about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Simulated ignorance will not affect the matter.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to discuss the Estimate until I get the necessary information, and I am not going to be shut up about it either.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will discuss the Estimate in the ordinary fashion. He will not discuss general principles. This is a Supplementary Estimate. What is in the White Paper falls for discussion and nothing else.

Mr. Dillon

I want to know why did not the Ministers responsible for these Departments form their Estimates more accurately. I was for a considerable time chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. When I was on that committee the principle was laid down that Estimates ought to be formed at the beginning of the year within 2 or 3 per cent. of what a Department wanted. I want to draw the attention of the House to the practice that has now grown up of bringing in an Estimate for £428,000 in respect of superannuation and retired allowances, and then blandly informing us in the month of March, at the end of the financial year, that a further 25 per cent. was required.

I think that reflects very gravely on the Minister responsible for making the Estimate. It is true that, technically, this Estimate is an Estimate from the Office of the Minister for Finance though it concerns the Minister for Justice who is primarily responsible for the Garda Síochána. If an estimate of what would be required for this purpose in the course of a financial year is wrong by 25 per cent. I think that should be the occasion of a very exhaustive explanation as to why more money is necessary, especially in view of the prospect that was held out to us that there would be no more Supplementary Estimates. Instead, we have received from the Minister for Finance an inadequate reading of a short statement prepared for him by officials of his Department which I do not think is a proper explanation.

We have here a sum of £105,000, retiring gratuities and an increase for pension allowances to be paid in the course of this financial year to retired members of the Garda Síochána, to their widows, children and dependents.

I observe that on the Order Paper of the House there are several Supplementary Estimates coming forward. I would be grateful if the Minister for Finance would take the occasion of this Supplementary Estimate to give the House some indication as to whether there are any more coming along and, if so, how many, because I think that we ought to have that information present to our minds when we are considering the expediency of authorising the expenditure of the sum that is here being requisitioned.

Mr. A. Byrne

When the original Estimate was going through many sympathetic references were made to the inadequate pension of £45 a year that is paid to the widows of Gardaí. I wonder has the Minister any intention of increasing the widows' pensions out of the extra sum that he is now seeking? We were led to believe that something would be done. We had a good deal of sympathetic talk. We were led to believe that the totally inadequate pensions which are paid to those widows would get consideration at an early date. I am just wondering now whether the Minister is going to give an increase to those widows whose husbands had given 30 years' service to the State. The pension of £45 which the widow of a member of the Garda Síochána gets is just sufficient to deprive her of other benefits. I would appeal to the Minister to consider increasing those widows' pensions.

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Dillon, with his inadequate knowledge of Irish, gathered from my inadequate reading of the explanation of this Estimate exactly the truth, and that is that there were more Gardaí retiring during this financial year than had been expected at the beginning of the financial year. It is a pity that a lot of Deputy Dillon's statements in the past were not in Greek, Hindustani or in some language in which they could not have been reported. Indeed, there stand in the records of this House statements of his that it would have been better if not made in any language, the one, for example, in which he said that he would never salute the flag because it was a dirty blood-stained rag.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is irrelevant on the Estimate.

Mr. Davin

He is at it again.

Mr. Dillon

It is a falsehood to begin with, and it is irrelevant.

Mr. Aiken

It is true and it is on the records. The Deputy said it in English that was understood by the reporters who put it on the records.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is quite irrelevant on this Estimate.

Mr. Aiken

The Deputy, of course, has been galloping around the country in recent weeks. He comes in here and makes statements which can be challenged. They are not just thrown out into the wind as they might be at some cross-roads down in the country or into the ears of the brethren assembled the other night in secret down near Monasterboice.

Mr. Sweetman

What was secret? Was not the Irish Press reporter there?

Mr. Aiken

The Irish Press reporter may have been let in, but this is a secret organisation and we do not know what Deputy Dillon was saying in secret to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

All this is irrelevant on the Estimate.

Mr. Sweetman

The Irish Press reporter was there.

Mr. Aiken

I wonder!

Mr. Dillon

Monasterboice put the wind up you.

Mr. Aiken

We will see what will happen in another week or so. A week will tell the whole story.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow this discussion on the question of Monasterboice or anywhere else. It must be confined to what is in the White Paper, the Estimate on the White Paper.

Mr. Aiken

I am wondering whether Deputy Dillon is prepared to tell the country or some secret meeting that he is against introducing a Supplementary Estimate for £125,000 in order to pay the extra pension which retiring Guards now draw because their pay has been increased. He knew perfectly well, he drew sufficient from my inadequate opening statement to know, that that was what was involved. Unfortunately, we in the Department of Finance and in the Department of Justice cannot reach that standard of accuracy which Deputy Dillon laid down some years ago at a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. The Garda Síochána have the right to retire fairly young, at 57, after 30 years' service, but they may carry on, and there is no knowing how many of them may opt to retire at an earlier age than they are compulsorily retired and ask for their pensions. If they do that, unless we bring in a law compelling them to remain, we have to foot the bill. Does Deputy Dillon want us to amend the Garda regulations in order to conscript them, to keep them in the Guards?

Deputy Dillon's statement which he attributed to the Taoiseach is in fact an echo of statements which he used to make here with great gusto and before he had the experience of being in Government. I remember him giving me a great lecture here when I was Minister for Finance from 1945 to the beginning of 1948 on how heavily the country was taxed and that we could not afford any more taxation. I remember him saying to me that there was now a burden of debt amounting to about £33 per head, and would I go to the people of Monaghan where I was on the run going around from houseen to houseen and say "my dear woman, I have succeeded in putting £33 per head on every man, woman and child in the country." They fought a campaign——

Mr. Sweetman

What has this got to do with the Estimate?

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Dillon said that the Taoiseach said that the taxable limit was reached and that we should not introduce supplementaries.

Mr. Sweetman

Deputy Dillon was not allowed to take that line.

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman went around the country in 1947 saying that if they got power here they would reduce taxation——

Mr. Dillon

And we did.

Mr. Aiken

——by £10,000,000 and instead they drove it up by £20,000,000.

Mr. Dillon

£6,000,000 we took off.

Mr. Aiken

They collected £20,000,000 more in the first year of their office——

Mr. Sweetman

£6,000,000.

Mr. Aiken

And I have no doubt that if they were returned they would probably put it up by £50,000,000.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have indicated that the only matter that falls for discussion on this Estimate is the matter set out in the White Paper and how it is proposed to spend the money asked for in the White Paper. Deputies must confine themselves to that.

Mr. Dillon

What about the taxes taken off by the inter-Party Government when it came into office or the 6d. taken off the income-tax?

Mr. Aiken

There is two-gun Dillon from Ballaghaderreen off again at a gallop.

A Deputy

Are we in Cork or Louth?

Mr. Dillon

Monasterboice.

Mr. Davin

This is a somewhat irregular reference.

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Dillon thinks he is dancing a jig on the tombstone of the Irish Party and a Republican flag in each hand.

Mr. MacBride

Is that on the White Paper?

Mr. Cosgrave

He is talking through his top hat.

Mr. Sweetman

They are done away with.

Mr. Cosgrave

He has his, but he only wears it in London, and very becoming it is, too.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister on the Estimate.

Mr. Sweetman

Yes, but on the Estimate.

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Dillon can talk about me; can I talk about Deputy Dillon for a while? After all, this should be interesting. There should be reciprocity.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was endeavouring to confine the discussion to what is in the White Paper, and I must ask the Minister to confine himself to that.

Mr. Dillon

The acting-Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The acting-Minister, and the actual Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. Aiken

If I am allowed to do it, I am quite prepared to confine my remarks solely to this Estimate and to ask the House to pass it in order that we may provide the extra pensions for the Guards who will, we now expect, leave the Force between now and the end of this financial year.

Mr. Dillon

Arising out of that——

An Ceann Comhairle

I called on the Minister to conclude.

Mr. Dillon

May I not ask a question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may ask a question.

Mr. Dillon

I understood the Minister for Finance to say that he wanted this money to provide for the Guards whom he expected would be resigning between now and the end of the financial year. Surely to God there is not going to be a general exodus from the Guards in the course of the next three weeks which will require £125,000 to finance. May we not assume that much of this money is required to deal with members of the Force who have retired during the financial year?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is an argument, not a question.

Mr. Dillon

Will the money be used for members of the Force who have already resigned? Surely the Minister does not tell us that there are going to be so many resignations between now and the 31st March as will require this provision?

Mr. Aiken

There are a number of Guards going out between now and the 31st March and we will require more money in order to meet their claims.

Mr. Dillon

Surely all this provision is not required for men going out between now and 31st March.

Mr. Aiken

The whole of the sum for the financial year is for the Guards who went out during the financial year——

Mr. Dillon

That is more like it.

Mr. Aiken

——and this sum will pay for those who will go out between now and the end of the financial year.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.