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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jun 1954

Vol. 146 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1954—Second Stage (Resumed).

While I was speaking before I moved to report progress I referred to some of the propaganda which the Parties now forming the Government published before the election, and I referred in particular to the fact that, despite the crippling burden that Fianna Fáil was alleged to have placed on the people, despite the fact that the Parties opposite always maintained that it was unnecessary, the sum total of their reliefs to date amounts to approximately 1/3 a week in the case of the average family, and I think it could be contended that it is even less in the case of the majority of the families of the country.

There has been, however, as well as the published pre-election propaganda, a pamphlet published in the past few days which I think is the official Labour journal, at least for the Dublin area. Its title is Labour and it is issued by the Dublin Regional Council of the Labour Party. The first heading is: “Labour Keeps Faith with the People: Prices to be Cut.” It is worth while quoting some of the contents of this front page article. It carries, of course, photographs of four of the Labour Deputies, all representative of Dublin constituencies, Deputy James Larkin, Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll, Deputy Denis Larkin and Deputy Seán Dunne.

Do you like them?

They are very good looking people I must admit. The journal says:—

"The first point in the election programme of the Labour Party was ‘reduction in food prices and use of subsidies on essential articles of food to achieve this objective.' Our Party fought the election mainly on that pledge, to reduce prices. It made it very clear that it would not support or take part in any Government which did not undertake to lower the cost of living. Labour was the only Party which gave this pledge to the electorate. Fianna Fáil took the line that nothing could be done about prices. Fine Gael insisted that it would make no promises. Well, Labour said that something would have to be done about prices and it made very definite promises. Labour has kept faith with the people. It has honoured the pledge given by it to the electorate."

I will agree that it has honoured that pledge to the extent of being instrumental, I take it, in bringing about a promise at least that butter will be reduced from a date in August. It says lower down:

"Soon butter will be cheaper and we are confident that the outcome of the Government's review of the prices of other commodities will be further reductions. Let there be no mistake about it; Labour is serious when it says that prices must come down."

I take it that it has at least swallowed the pill that there will be no further reductions for the balance of the current financial year but I think I can take it also, from the context of this document, that there will be wigs on the green if at the end of the financial year there are no further price reductions. Further on there is a little qualification:

"We are under no illusion as to the margin available for reducing prices. We do not expect this or any other Government to work miracles or achieve the impossible."

I do not think that understanding or well-informed approach was very evident when Labour Deputies were speaking from this side of the House before the last election. If one listened to their speeches and read them one could only take from them that there would be no difficulty whatever in bringing about the reduction in prices and, as Deputy Dunne promised, an immediate reduction in those prices. Deputy Dunne's photograph is, of course, here too and apparently Deputy Dunne's immediate promise has now gone by the board. I presume that is the first of the many promises that will be thrown overboard as Fine Gael has done in regard to the high cost of living. The pamphlet goes on to say:—

"Apart from the question of prices, there are other points in the Government's programme which the people will welcome, in particular the undertaking to increase social welfare benefits (old age pensions, widows' pensions, etc.)."

The Minister for Social Welfare has reasserted the Government's intention in that respect. It will be interesting to know to what extent he can get agreement from his Fine Gael colleagues to increase those benefits still further. It will be more interesting to get from the responsible Minister the source of the moneys which will go to provide those increased benefits. I assume that, since it has been put forward as agreed policy by the Government, Fine Gael are in agreement on increasing those benefits.

We doubled them the last time.

In what respect?

Old age pensions.

That is a complete fallacy. The old age pension, when Deputy Dillon left office as Minister for Agriculture, stood at 17/6 and prior to that the old age pension was 15/-. When one takes in other supplemental benefits that were payable, I am sure the Minister will agree that there is no truth whatsoever in the suggestion that they were instrumental in doubling the old age pension. But it is a fact that before the Minister left office in 1951 he was given the opportunity by the Fianna Fáil Party who were then in opposition, that if they brought legislation in to increase the old age pension still further, no opposition would be offered on this side. Deputy Norton and his colleagues failed to take advantage of this offer. Within a month of resuming office Fianna Fáil had in fact increased the old age pension to 20/- and later 21/6. However, Fianna Fáil had to find the money somewhere and the increased taxation that followed was inevitable if we were to pay for those increased pensions.

Fine Gael seem to have gone one better than their previous declared policy in regard to social welfare. I refer to an advertisement which appeared in the Southern Star of the 15th May, 1954, which advocated the candidature of Deputy Seán Collins and his colleague, Councillor John L. O'Sullivan and in which they stated in point 5 of their published propaganda: “Old age pensions for all with the abolition of the means test.” I am sure Deputy Murphy in his assiduous reading of the Southern Star noted that with particular care and put it aside for future reference so that at least as far as the Fine Gael Party representative from West Cork is concerned he will have no difficulty in enlisting his support to persuade the Government to abolish the means test. To revert to this Labour pamphlet——

Be sure to buy that regularly.

I promise the Deputy I will.

Is there any mention of the Paris Embassy there?

We will discuss that when the Estimate for External Affairs comes before us.

It is passed and you did not mention it.

Unfortunately, I was absent.

Or were you awake?

I will make one observation and repeat what Deputy Aiken said or what he is reported as having said, that during the inter-Party régime, from 1948 to 1951, a much higher price was paid for the purchase of an embassy abroad. I have not heard that contradicted and, therefore, I take it that it is a fact. As well as that, I noted with pleasure that the Paris correspondent of the Irish Times, commenting on the purchase of the embassy there, said it was about the best buy that could have been made.

Be careful of the Irish Times! Its approbation is equivalent to the “Kiss of Death”. They blessed the Fianna Fáil Party before the election. See the result!

I thought the Deputy was about to quote the "By Line".

I do not read the cartoon. Apparently a man on the spot thought it was a good buy. Now this pamphlet, to which I have been referring, states:—

"Labour is moving forward. Year by year it is gaining the confidence of more people. Our Party, the Party of Connolly and Larkin, is moving towards the goal of a Labour Government for the whole of Ireland."

I take it that is a warning to Fine Gael that Labour are using them for the purpose of eventually forming a complete Labour Government. But Labour might well look out for Fine Gael because Fine Gael has a habit of swallowing erstwhile colleagues and supporters.

We swallowed three of yours the last time.

And if they do not regurgitate them into the Seanad they will be altogether sunk.

At least we have a clear-cut policy and we have not the duplicity to suggest, on the one hand, that we are prepared to coalesce and, on the other, to aspire at the same time to complete domination. I am sure complete control ultimately is the aim and object of the main Parties comprising the Government at the moment. I take it that if Deputy Dillon found himself surrounded with a sufficient number of Fine Gael Deputies to form a Government, without the support of Labour or anyone else, he would not hesitate. I take it the same applies to Labour if they found themselves sufficiently strong numerically to form a Government.

We have been promised better times in almost every corner of the country. The people can sit back and wait for these better times. If they do not come, the Government must realise that its day of reckoning will have dawned.

I think this is a very nonsensical discussion. It is a sheer waste of the time of this House and I believe there is not an atom of sincerity in the amendment put down by the former Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass.

We appreciate that the Fianna Fáil Deputies on the Opposition Benches are very dissatisfied. We appreciate that they are disgruntled because the Irish people expressed in no uncertain terms through the medium of the ballot boxes on the 18th May last that they wanted a change of Government, an inter-Party Government, to again control the destinies of this State. That was the democratic right of the people and Deputy Lynch and those associated with him in Fianna Fáil should appreciate the people's right to elect an alternative Government to theirs. Fianna Fáil was here too long. I am sure that they will never again find themselves on this side of the House.

The main argument advanced by the Opposition speakers is in relation to promises made by the Tánaiste and others. They are charging that this Deputy, that Deputy and the other Deputy made certain promises during the election campaign. They are going around the country gathering up every scrap of paper they can find from Donegal to Cork, taking statements from their contexts——

They are all in their context here.

——in an endeavour to bolster up their case that the inter-Party Government got in by making false promises. I have much more faith in the Irish people than the Deputies in Fianna Fáil have. The Irish people examined the position as it was put before them by the then Government Party and by the Opposition groups, which now comprise the Government. The then Opposition groups told the people that they believed the inter-Party system of Government was a better and more beneficial system for this country. They told the people to weigh side by side the achievements accomplished here during the inter-Party régime from 1948 to 1951 with the achievements of Fianna Fáil from 1932 to 1948 and from 1951 to 1954. They asked the people to judge which Government gave the best service to the country and the people, adjudicating on that issue, decided that the inter-Party system gave the best service; it is on that basis the people decided in favour of the inter-Party Government.

There was no duplicity. Neither was there any deception. In West Cork, as indeed throughout the entire country, we put it clearly before the people that it was most unlikely that any Party would get an over-all majority in the recent election. We told the people that the system of Government which obtained here from 1948 to 1951 was the most beneficial system. I told them, as did my colleagues, that if I were elected I was pledged to support that system of Government.

Subject to certain conditions.

Subject to the condition that we knew very well, having had experience of that type of Government from 1948 to 1951, that it would be a Government which would introduce beneficial legislation here. Surely it is not expected that we could change the face of the country overnight. Surely it is not expected that on the 23rd day of June, a month after the election, we can remove all the disastrous policies Fianna Fáil implemented here during the past three years and make Ireland into a kind of heaven upon earth inside five or six weeks. The Deputy can rest assured that when he gets an opportunity of going before the people again five years hence the 12-point programme we have laid down will have been fully implemented.

I am sure Deputy O'Malley would not like to see the country prosperous. I regret to say that is the impression I have formed as a result of the views I have heard him express. He would like to see this Government making the same blunders that Fianna Fáil did from 1951 to 1954 with such disastrous results for the people.

That is what we are trying to prevent.

Order! Deputy Murphy is in possession.

That is what the Deputy is hoping will happen, but I am satisfied that the destinies of this country are once more in safe hands and that the Government is constituted of men of ability with a thorough knowledge of the people's needs and requirements. I am equally satisfied, as are the majority of the people, that they will introduce beneficial legislation here. They do not expect to introduce that legislation overnight, but in the course of time it will be brought in. We can afford to think over the problems confronting us. We have no need to rush hasty legislation through the House because we have a solid majority which we got from the Irish people on the 18th May and we will utilise that majority for their benefit.

Who are these Fianna Fáil Deputies to castigate anyone about false promises? Have not Fianna Fáil existed on false promises? My colleague, Deputy Kyne, had occasion to refer to the promises made when Fianna Fáil first got control of this country's destinies in 1932. The people were told then that if Fianna Fáil was elected and made the Government of the country Ireland would become overnight a kind of heaven upon earth. Fianna Fáil would bring back all the emigrants from England and Canada and the United States of America and provide them with employment at home. The former Taoiseach said that Ireland could maintain 17,000,000 people. After 20 years of Fianna Fáil Government it is not to-day able to maintain 3,000,000 people never mind the 17,000,000 about whom the former Taoiseach boasted. Fianna Fáil must recognise that it scarcely ever honoured a promise it made to the people. You came in as a Government in 1951 under false pretences. As you have been told by Deputies in the Fine Gael, Clann na Talmhan, Clann na Poblachta and Labour Parties, you got in on the votes of a few Independent members who had been elected by the people to support the inter-Party system of Government.

The Deputy should address the Chair.

I am addressing those people through you, Sir.

Does the Deputy deny the right of an Independent Deputy to vote as he likes?

I dislike very much referring to former members of the House who are not here to defend themselves, but the fact is, as we have maintained here time and time again, that those particular Deputies misinterpreted the views of the people who supported them at the previous election. That was clearly demonstrated on the 18th May last; at the first opportunity which their constituents got of determining the matter, they did so in no uncertain manner by removing those people from this House.

That is the justification for the statements which have been made time and time again here by the Deputies who sit in the Parties on this side of the House, that the Fianna Fáil Government during the period 1951 to 1954 enjoyed office because of misrepresentation by four Independent Deputies that we had in this House. They had been elected to support the inter-Party system of Government but did not do so. Therefore, I say that the last Government had no mandate.

I do not want to delay the time of the House. Since the change of Government a wave of contentment and satisfaction has swept throughout the country from Cork to Donegal. The people now realise that they have a representative, responsible and democratic Government in charge of the affairs of the country, and that the one-Party dictatorial system of Government which obtained here during the past three years, and for a number of years prior to that, has ended. The people know very well that the ordinary rank and file members of the Fianna Fáil Party had little say in regard to policy.

Does the Deputy repudiate the views of his official organ on its ideal of a Labour Government?

We can grow in strength and we are growing in strength, and if we succeed in sweeping some more of you out the next time, as we did this time, there is every possibility that we will become a Labour Government in the not too distant future.

You will forget then what you have said about an inter-Party Government.

I would remind Deputy Lynch that I prefaced my remarks by saying that it was the considered opinion of the Labour Party, and indeed of every Party forming the inter-Party Government, that it was most unlikely that any Party would get an over-all majority in this election. The issue was put before the people as to whether they were in favour of a one-Party dictatorial system of government, such as we had under Fianna Fáil, or of a democratic inter-Party system of Government. The Irish people decided in favour of the inter-Party system of government, and that is why we are here and you are on the other side. The Irish people expressed their approval of the inter-Party system, and that is the position.

So far as promises and assurances are concerned, the people were told that the inter-Party Government, if elected, would continue the policy which it had pursued during the period from 1948 to 1951. I feel sure that Deputy O'Malley cannot but agree that the country prospered very much under the inter-Party system of government, and that we had a much more prosperous time between 1948 and 1951 than we had from 1951 to 1954. I believe the people are satisfied that this Government will act as the former inter-Party Government acted. The people are satisfied that this Government's handling of the country's affairs will be competent and capable, that it will not arrive at any hasty decisions but will consider closely and carefully every piece of legislation, and will see that there will be no wanton or wasteful expenditure such as occurred under Fianna Fáil for a number of years. This Government will ensure that every penny of public funds will be used to the country's advantage, for the advantage of the people in providing them with gainful employment, and will cut out wanton schemes such as had been envisaged by Fianna Fáil. I suppose if Fianna Fáil had got back the last time they would have started on the building of a new Parliament at a cost of £12,000,000 and throwing away money on racehorses and schemes of that sort which were of no benefit. At present Fianna Fáil has no propaganda left except in newspaper cuttings. I was rather surprised to find Deputy Lynch, a former Parliamentary Secretary, going around looking for these newspaper cuttings.

The Deputy has not heard the end of them yet.

It is a good job for the Deputy, but these newspaper cuttings have no bearing whatever on the present position. No member on this side of the House, no matter what Party he belongs to, made any false promises to the people. Deputies did point out to the people the marked increase that there had been in the cost of living. The former Minister for External Affairs, in the course of his speech to-day, produced a number of these quotations and said that Deputies on this side had assured the Irish people that they would reduce prices to the 1951 level. He was not, however, able to name one single Deputy on this side of the House who had made any such statement.

What we pointed out to the people was that we believed that the marked increase in the cost of living was quite uncalled for, and that we would endeavour in so far as we could, if successful in the election, to halt that increase in the cost of living and make reductions wherever possible. That was the general promise which those on this side of the House made to the people. It is one that we are going to implement. We have already given an earnest of our intention to do so.

I should like to make an appeal to some of the new Deputies, and in particular to my friend Deputy Moher who comes from County Cork, to adopt a more progressive policy and to cut themselves away from disruptive tactics.

I will take that advice.

The Party opposite should bear in mind that they have been rejected by the people and that this Government is here by the will of the people, and I believe will be here for the next five years. I do not think there can be any doubt about that. There is an obligation on the Opposition Party to give as much help as possible to the Government, help such as we gave to them when they were in office. Any criticisms that we made in our time from the opposite side were of a constructive character, their object being to stop the then Government from pursuing the wasteful and wanton policy which they had embarked on. That should be the line of the Opposition to-day as it was our line.

I have little more to say. The people gave their verdict a very short time ago. That verdict is more powerful and more expressive than any statements that can be made in this House six weeks after the election. I should like to say, in conclusion, that I have no doubt the present Minister for Finance, the most responsible Minister in the Government, is a man who will prove himself well capable of his job. He has had experience as a member of the House and enjoys the confidence of every Deputy irrespective of whether that Deputy is a member of the Fine Gael, Labour, Clann na Talmhan or Clann na Poblachta Parties. We stand firmly behind him in his difficult task, knowing the financial problems that he has to face. We are quite confident that he, with his other colleagues in the Government, will succeed in bringing about an era of peace, contentment and prosperity to the country. In my opinion, the condition, so far as people are concerned, will have changed very much for the better when the term in office of this Government will have ended in four or five years' time.

First of all, I should like to congratulate the present Minister for Finance on his appointment, and to say that, much as I may differ from him on many matters, I hope he will be a great success in his capacity as the new Minister for Finance. He has the most important Ministry of State. The success or otherwise of the policies which each Minister would like to bring into operation depend to a great extent on the financial backing and support they are going to get from the man who holds the purse. Personally I am more concerned in this House with the measures that are going to be taken by the Government over their period of office towards stemming emigration and increasing employment than in dealing with the immediate questions of who said such a thing should be brought down or who made promises on certain lines prior to the election. Speaking as an independent Deputy I could very well forcibly remind all the Parties in the House that they have all made political promises in the past and many of these promises were more honoured in the breach than in the observance.

There is a motion here before the House and frankly I was rather surprised to see a motion of this nature so early. I feel that we should recollect—those of us who were here in 1951 when the change of government came—that the Government which took office at that period made it clear to many of us that they had no intention of interfering with food subsidies or similar things and yet because when they took up office they found it was essential that money be raised they had to take the step they did not believe would have to be taken prior to the election, and in the following year they reduced the food subsidies. In that connection that particular Government got 12 months to work. They took over Estimates that had been prepared by the inter-Party Government and those Estimates were worked on by the incoming Government for 12 months.

The Estimates of this year were prepared by the Fianna Fáil Government and I think it is a bit early to get a complete overhaul on the lines suggested now by the Opposition. I do not for a moment believe that they expect anything revolutionary to take place now and possibly this motion is designed more to embarrass certain members of the Government Parties and make them a little more careful in future about statements they make. If it is for that purpose it is perhaps no harm as a reminder to individual Deputies that when they do make promises the people are entitled to some return.

One point I should like to mention first of all is in connection with the reduction in the price of butter. I think it is a great thing to say the price of an essential commodity is going to come down. I also feel that we must approach this reduction from another angle. When this reduction in the price of butter takes place we must take into consideration that in many of the houses here in Dublin, in Cork and in all towns, there are many people living in poor areas who can ill afford to buy butter even at the reduced price. Many of these families are to-day using margarine and I can foresee that in a short time the problem will arise in that there will be a surplus of butter in this country and on the cost of production of 1 lb. of butter we will have to pay a price to the British or some other people to take this butter off our hands. From one point of view I think it is wise to reduce the price of butter, but if we examine carefully into the problem of who is going to benefit most by the reduction we will find it is not the poorer section of the community. The family that can afford to buy but 1 lb. of butter will save only 5d. but if we go and look at the luxury hotel using maybe 1 cwt. of butter in a week, we will see whom the reduction in the price of butter benefits most.

I would prefer when a reduction in the price of an essential foodstuff takes place that the benefit of that reduction would be given mainly to the very poor sections of our community. There are two ways of doing that: one is by a system of rationing—I am not suggesting that that should come into operation—and the other is by giving increases in allowances through children's allowances, through old age pensions and through increases in wages if necessary, so that those people who are on the borderline so far as the cost of living is concerned will be able to purchase this commodity and so that the well-to-do sections of the community, the hoteliers and possibly the tourists will bear a fair share of the cost of living.

I will bet, as far as the Minister is concerned, that in three months' time he will not find a reduction in the charges for hotels for guests staying for a night in spite of the reduction in the price of butter. That is not going to be passed on to the public.

I mention that as a criticism of the manner in which the reduction took place. I know it is very difficult when you do something in a hurry to satisfy everybody and possibly I am very hard to satisfy.

I am, however, satisfied that efforts are going to be made by this Government over a period of time to solve some of the major problems that face the country, and that the key to success lies in the hands of the Minister for Finance. It is an old saying that the man who holds the purse can control the destiny of the nation, and I have listened on many occasions to the present Minister for Agriculture and other colleagues of his on the Front Bench when they have time and again pointed out that the power to create credit should lie in the hands of the State and that rates of interest on money for development should be lowered especially as regards money for capital development. If we are going to get the expansion in this country in agriculture and in afforestation that we need it will take money and that money must be made available at a low rate of interest; otherwise future generations will not be able to bear the interest rates that will lie heavily upon them. There is a heavy bill to be met now out of the Budget, to be raised out of revenue for the repayment of interest charges. That is mounting each year. We are paying to private moneylenders a huge rate of interest so that the country may be developed. If we are going to leave power in the hands of those private groups they are going to choke off the lifeblood—which is money—for the development work. I make no bones about it when I say that every time there was an increase in the rates of interest for money in Britain a similar change took place here.

If Britain wanted to clamp down on credit and if the British Government wanted to make a decision to reduce credit they ordered the Bank of England to take the necessary steps and no sooner had that taken place in England than our commercial banks here followed suit. It is a significant thing that whenever the question of finance or of control of credit came up in England the decision with regard to increasing the rates of interest was always announced in the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the British House of Commons. All decisions with regard to interest rates and money were made and announced in the House of Commons. Here in Ireland, when a change in the rate of interest is contemplated, the commercial banks merely politely notify the Government that they are about to increase their rates of interest. In other words, the Government or the State have no say whatever in the matter and, when they have not, all our hopes for the expansion that is so essential in our economy can never be realised, while that power lies outside the control of the State.

I am going to take a rather long-term view in connection with the present Government. I am watching to see the steps they propose to take in connection with financial matters. If the necessary steps are taken, I see no reason why the Government should not get solid support. They will get it certainly outside the House if the people see that fundamentals are being tackled. However, it will take time to do these things. So far as the Opposition are concerned, they are entitled at the present time, I suppose, to make capital out of everything they can. At the same time I do not think it fair, at such an early stage in the lifetime of the present Government, to hold up the business of the House on an amendment of this kind. If an amendment of this kind were put down in 12 months' time, I could see every reason for the Opposition pursuing their tactics tooth and nail, provided the necessary adjustments and changes that have been suggested were not brought about then. I see no reason why in 12 months' time, after a close examination of the various Departments, the present Government should not be able to make certain improvements and reductions in the cost of living.

At the end of 12 months the excuse will not be available to the Government that the Estimates were prepared by a previous Administration. After 12 months, the present Government will have the responsibility for the preparation of next year's Estimates. I think that is the time that the criticism that is now being levelled against the Government should be levelled, if it can be justified. I personally do not favour a motion of this kind at this juncture. Even though amendments may be introduced here on the Committee Stage which I should like to support, I do not intend to support them because it would not be practicable at the present time to take steps to bring them into operation.

There is one matter that strikes me in connection with the tax on drink. Suggestions were made by prominent members of the present Government that if the penal tax imposed on spirits were reduced, we would be able to get more money into the Exchequer. If that proposition has been examined by officials of the Department since the change of Government, I should like to know whether the views of the experts in the Department of Finance coincided with the views expressed by members of the present Government who stated on numerous occasions that if these penal taxes were reduced more money would come into the Exchequer. I want to get an answer to that as a matter of information.

I also want to make it clear that I think this Government or any other Government would be very foolish, either now or in the future, to take any steps to reduce the tax on spirits or whiskey. I think that under no circumstances should any reduction be made. If any reduction is to be made in the tax on drink, let it be in connection with the pint, the poor man's pint as it is called, though it is not the poor man alone who drinks it. If there is to be any reduction made, let it be in connection with that particular drink but certainly not in connection with spirits because if we allow a reduction to take place now in the tax on spirits, whatever chance we have of expanding our export trade will go up the spout.

The distillers are only too anxious to increase their output and their sales on the home market if we give them the opportunity to do so, but it is quite different with the export market, the dollar market that stares us in the face if we would only try to develop it. Personally, if necessary, I should prefer to see the Minister losing money for the Exchequer by increasing the tax on spirits so that these distillers would be forced into the foreign market and forced to bring much needed dollars into this country to help to balance our economy. I repeat once more that although the new Minister and I may differ on many matters, I wish him the very best of success in the onerous undertaking he has before him.

Perhaps one might think that a new and young Deputy like myself coming in here for the first time, might be overawed and consider it necessary to bring in a number of files, newspaper cuttings and statistics. I do not view it in that light. I think the issue in the motion before the House is a very simple one. The Parties represented in the Government know only too well that what we desire is an opportunity of exposing their tactics to the Irish people, to the electorate. I came in here, I suppose, with a certain amount of ideals and principles but I was certainly very quickly disillusioned, even on the very first day the Dáil met to elect the Taoiseach. I think that if we are to do business here we, as an Opposition, must offer constructive criticism at all times and it is certainly not the policy of this Party to go in for destructive criticism or to do anything which would retard the progress of the country. On the day the Dáil met here first we had Deputy Mulcahy, now the Minister for Education, proposing Deputy Costello as Taoiseach. In doing so he held him up as an example of a man who had given up so much for so little. Did they forget or did the proposer of the Taoiseach forget, how much Deputy de Valera, Deputy Lemass, Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Dr. Ryan and other men who have rendered service to the country, have given up for so little? That kind of hypocrisy, in my opinion, should not be tolerated. That is on the point of honesty; I am afraid I am very much disillusioned.

I can, I think, sincerely say to the Minister for Finance that I heard him utter only two true words: "I move". We here shall expose on every possible occasion the falsehoods which Fine Gael have tried to put over on the people of this country. The Taoiseach came in here and said: "Before the election we gave no promises." Yet, last night the Attorney-General, Deputy McGilligan, said: "Yes, and every one of our promises will be implemented." Notice should be taken of that by the Minister for Finance. The Taoiseach said: "We gave no promises" while Deputy McGilligan said: "Yes, we did and we shall implement every one of them." It is easy for Deputy McGilligan to talk. Perhaps he hopes that he will not be there to have to answer the electorate at a future date, that he will be looking down upon us from the Supreme Court.

That does not arise in this debate.

How soon the Taoiseach changed his tune. A few weeks earlier he said that the people should be encouraged to a recognition of the fact that all promises of benefits were, in fact, promises by politicians to take more money from the people and spend it for them. That is soon forgotten. Then we had Deputy McGilligan last night saying in this House that only for proportional representation we would see a landslide. How little he knows about proportional representation. In fact, if proportional representation did not exist in this country, we would be returned to power with something like 104 seats. There was no landslide in this election. The election was decided by certain elements in Dublin and certain elements in Cork City. You could call the election, in fact, A Tale of Two Cities—and that got the hammer yesterday at, the Curragh—it did not stay and the Coalition will not stay either.

That is what you think.

In this country, unfortunately, we have very gullible people. I was amazed to find that there are people and Parties who would sell their principles for ministerial office. When a new Deputy comes into the House he gets a copy of the Constitution. A copy was handed to me and one of the things I read there was that the Taoiseach shall have the power of nominating his Ministers.

We are not discussing the formation of Governments. We are discussing the financial policy of the Government.

I am on the point of discussing the honesty of the present Government.

He is being constructive, Sir. You should not interrupt.

The amendment deals with promises that were made. We are not discussing the formation of Governments, as the Deputy is.

The Labour Party need have no doubt whatever. I can speak about my own constituency, East Limerick. Their Party leaders and their canvassers went around the housing schemes of Limerick City together with their Fine Gael allies and they promised the poorer classes down there—if I am challenged outside the House I can prove it—that without a shadow of doubt all the social services would be increased immediately. Now we can see the attitude they adopted: "We are in now."

And you are out.

Nemo me impune lacessit. Deputy O'Leary can never plead being mute of malice.

He will grow; he is only young.

Three white mice.

It was a disgraceful thing for the Coalition to carry out that kind of electioneering tactics. I cannot understand how people can go into political life in this way and consider themselves honest. We could have promised the world too.

You promised the straight road.

We could have prostituted our ideals like everyone over there on the Coalition benches did.

You promised them the straight road.

Consider the way in which the civil servants up here were bought by the Fine Gael Party—by Deputy McGilligan—a night or two before the elections. I recall Deputy Norton speaking on the 21st April in this House, when he described this present Budget and said: "A few morsels are being set as bait in the hope of deluding simple electors." Yet Deputy McGilligan turned around and, to buy the votes of the civil servants, he offered them this bribe and possibly with some success. He made the statement last night that he would do all in his power to see that no civil servant became redundant but, sotto voce, he spoke of the 1,500 who go out every year through marriage or death or for some other reason and he did not say whether the 1,500 positions would be filled. I wonder what the Labour Party's attitude is on that matter.

To follow the arbitration award for civil servants—a thing you did not do.

Deputy O'Leary should stop interrupting.

We had the option under the arbitration of making it retrospective if the money was there. The question is that this country has been sold by Fine Gael before. It was sold in the past. There are young people in the country to-day who, unfortunately, are not politically educated to that fact. Besides selling us out politically, as they did when they sold the Six Counties——

That is not relevant to the amendment before the House. That is a long time back. The motion before the House is a financial motion.

——there is a thing which could be just as serious, it is to sell the country economically. The Government have been asked by speakers on this side of the House where are they getting the money. They did not give a coherent answer yet. I will give the Minister the answer—he is going to borrow it. Can I ask the Minister "yes" or "no", is not that right? Of course it is right. They are going to borrow the money and the day will come when this country will be a bankrupt nation if you continue in office and we will have to go with our hat in our hand to Britain and America for credits and they will say: "All right. If you want certain facilities from us, we want certain facilities from you." You know what the facilities will be. You could throw overboard overnight, so to speak, all that was won and fought for so dearly in this country.

I have no statistics here. The Minister must agree that that is what he is going to do—borrow—because the Minister well knows who is keeping him in office, who is keeping the Government in office. The man who is keeping the Government in office to-day is Deputy Jim Larkin and when he pulls the string that is the end of the Coalition Government. The Labour Party turned around and they said that they genuinely thought and they genuinely would see that all these promises were implemented. The Minister knows who can bring him down and the Minister, if he is honest, will have to face facts and face them very quickly. He can offer the children of this nation bankruptcy in future or he can say to the Labour Party: "I am sorry. I have to tell you the truth. The money is not there. I did the best I could. We are in power. Pull together. Try and stay for five years and then we will hope for pot luck."

Why did Labour win seats at the last election?

Labour won seats because it gulled the public. Is not that the obvious answer? We did not promise. If we had promised all this and heaven too, we would have got back with an over-all majority but the Deputy will have to agree that if there were a general election to-morrow morning, even at this early stage——

You would lose one-quarter of your seats.

You were asleep for five years.

I doubt that we would lose one-quarter of our seats. Deputy O'Leary should know the position better than anyone in this House. He boasts that he is a man of the people. Move around among the people and hear the talk that there is now about the 5d. per lb. off butter— the sop he gave them to keep them quiet. You would think the price of butter was down already. To-day is only 24th June.

It would never come down if you had got into power.

Deputy O'Malley should address the Chair. Interruptions should cease.

Our policy in this election was that we considered that the social services were very meagre indeed. We put it on our electioneering pamphlets. We did not promise that when we got back to power we would implement immediately the social services we would like but we did promise that now that the country, as handed back to the Minister for Finance, is on a sound financial footing, that in time—what the Minister is now looking for—time—we would certainly remember the less well-off members of the community but we never, in order to get votes, gave, as Deputy O'Leary did in the Bull Ring in Wexford, all these promises which he knew in his heart he could not keep.

Do you remember the time you gave us free beef?

Some Labour members spoke about the 14 point programme of the Labour Party. One of the planks in the Labour Party programme was the nationalisation of the flour milling industry. It gave a lot of concern to us in Limerick and I put down a question about it. Brave as you like, the Minister for Industry and Commerce said no, the Government had no intention whatever of nationalising the flour industry. Therefore the first point of the Labour Party programme goes like that. It does not worry them any more. They are delighted amongst themselves. They are all feeling very happy to be there for five years. I uttered a very ominous few words to-night.

Do not take yourself too seriously.

Perhaps in my innocence, but the time will come when I will be proved right. There has been much talk in this House by the members of the Labour Party but I think they only represent 13 per cent. of the electorate.

You do not like them.

How would Deputy O'Leary, if he was connected with a company, like to see a man with 13 per cent. of the voting power turn around and run the company in exactly the manner he wished? I do not think he would agree that that would be a proper procedure. Another thing that the Labour Party will have to agree on is this. The rank and file of the Party are not satisfied with the action of their so-called leaders in accepting ministerial positions.

How does this arise? We are dealing with the financial policy of the Government and taxation and the Deputy will have to relate his remarks to the motions before the House.

This is his first time and we can make excuses for him on that account.

Please God, it will not be my last. They are very strange bed-fellows indeed. I never thought I would see the day when there would be an alliance between the Labour Party and Fine Gael. We all know the Fine Gael is the Party of the snob.

You should be over here then.

It is the Party which advocated closer ties with Britain. It is not so long ago since the leaders of Fine Gael advocated closer ties in Trinity College.

Who brought the Commander-in-Chief of the Army in the North to the Curragh?

One Minister who was kicked out by Fine Gael and taken back again is the man who recently involved us in a nice position. I would say that Deputy Morrissey would not agree with that, no matter how bad things might be otherwise. As I said, this country will be brought to the brink of bankruptcy in a very short time if the policy of the Minister for Finance which I have prophesied is put into operation, and it is the only policy, as far as I can see, that he can put into operation to fulfil his promises. Borrow, borrow, that is what he is going to do. He is going to borrow, without any shadow of doubt, and when he is concluding this debate he should have enough guts to admit to the Irish people that that is what he is going to do.

It was thrown at me, on my first appearance in this House, that I had a lot to learn. I may not have the forensic ability of the Minister for Agriculture and I may not be a lecturer in economics, but I have enough common sense to see that this country is being led to ruin. As I said before, the Fine Gael Party has brought us to political ruin and they are trying now to bring us to financial ruin. But I cannot see how, in their hearts, the Labour Deputies who are not members of the Government can support this. I can visualise the day coming very shortly when there will be a break. It is even apparent already.

You are a good prophet.

I may be. Deputies may laugh when I say it is even apparent already, but you can hear mutterings and mumblings here and there. The Minister for Finance knows the arguing and the bickering that went on between Labour and Fine Gael and what went on at the meeting at the Gresham Hotel of Clann na Talmhan Deputies.

The Deputy should relate his remarks to the matter before the House.

Had the Deputy his ear to the keyhole?

It is usual to allow a Deputy to make his maiden speech without interruption.

It purports to be the speech of a seasoned warrior.

There are a lot of disappointed people in the country to-day.

And in the Dáil.

And in the Dáil. The Minister for Finance has a responsibility such as no other individual has had for many years. I cannot see what he is going to do. We are not going to taunt the Government that they promised this and promised that. We say that the money is not there to implement the promises. We say that even after a short time the people who voted for you and put you here now realise without any shadow of doubt that they were codded, that they were gulled. Deputy Morrissey laughed heartily when I said that if there were an election in the morning there would be a very different result.

The Deputy would not cod them a second time.

We would be returned with an over-all majority. I ask the Minister to bear in mind that it is but a step from the Capitol to the Tarpeian Rock and, when it comes to the day of reckoning, if he does not do what we are trying to ask him to do constructively, then the Minister for Finance can rest assured that the inter-Party Government and the Coalition cliques will be wiped from the political map of this country forever.

I do not think that day is too far distant. We heard a lot during the election campaign about the repatriation of external assets. Those opposite were going round in my area promising they would bring back those millions of pounds from England immediately they got back into office—£41,000,000 and £127,000,000—and reinvest it here. The Minister for Finance knows only too well that is a physical impossibility. The Labour Party should face up to the facts, now that they have responsibility for the national well-being and when they realise that the Government cannot implement those promises they should not do anything which would damage the country. I will conclude by repeating my prophecy to the Minister for Finance that he will be brought down by the small percentage, 13 per cent. of the electorate, by that Party who put him into power.

I do not intend to intervene for long in this debate. In the past two days the House has had submitted to it considerable documentary evidence of the various promises made and broken by the Coalition. It started fairly early on last year during the by-election in East Cork of which this House heard so much. My constituency was invaded by the itinerant soapbox orators of Fine Gael and the people were subjected to a psychological blitz. In my constituency one morning I was speaking at the church gate at Coolagown and two members of the Fine Gael Party spoke there before me.

On that particular morning they were telling the farmers of Coolagown that Deputy de Valera was building a new jail at Chapelizod to meet the creamery milk producers when they came to Dublin the following spring. That sounded very well at a church where the entire congregation consisted of dairy farmers. A very strange thing happened that night, when another team of the itinerants spoke in the town of Fermoy and piped a very different tune, saying they did not know how the housewife or the mother of a large family could buy milk at 5d. a pint or butter at 4/2 a lb. That is a sample of the duplicity which we had then and in the recent election. In that instance they wanted dear milk in Coolagown and cheap milk and butter in Fermoy three miles away.

There was an argument yesterday evening by the lawyer members of Fine Gael on certain statements quoted from this side of the House, that they did not contain the meaning which the speakers on this side put on them. One has to remember that many of the statements and advertisements were ambiguous, but one has also to remember that the Front Bench of Fine Gael found its place because of the reckless promises made by the various Deputies who succeeded behind them. It was the majority of the legswhich sent the heads to the Front Bench. I listened to the Attorney-General, Deputy McGilligan, talk of the arid years of Fianna Fáil adminisstration and then, looking across at the Labour Benches, I thought that the lingering shadow of Deputy McGilligan must look very like Banquo's ghost to the Labour Party.

I will cite another instance, the case where the price of eggs dropped, through external circumstances. We had been warning the people as far back as 1948, when Deputy Dillon, the present Minister for Agriculture, was stalking the country telling the people he would drown the British with eggs. We were warning the people then that, in view of the considerable subsidy which the British were giving to their home producers, they should be very careful that the amount of capital which they invested in the poultry industry would be recoupable within a certain limited time. However, Deputy Dillon placed no reserve or limit, he stated in his usual extravagant way that he would drown the British with eggs.

What happened? In a short time, encouraged by the subsidy, the British produced something like 85 per cent. of their total requirements in eggs, leaving 15 per cent. for competition between all-comers; and the bottom fell out of the price. Last year some of those opposite were saying in the towns that the policy of Deputy Dillon reduced the price of eggs to the consumer, but in the rural areas they blamed Fianna Fáil for the fall in price.

That was the kind of duplicity to which the people were subjected. That is one of the reasons why I am here— because just one year elapsed when I fortunately was given an opportunity to return to those same constituents and to expose the duplicity and the false promises made by the people opposite. I have always maintained that our people are an intelligent and politically mature people and that they will very soon punish those who deceive them. That accounts for my presence here. I missed no opportunity of recalling the speeches made and of reminding the people of the various promises made by that concentration of Deputies opposite which invaded the constituency of East Cork on that occasion. I repeat that if our people were intelligent enough between the years 1953 and 1954 to punish Fine Gael for its duplicity on that particular occasion, when they are given the opportunity again they will certainly mete out a like punishment for the deception of which the people opposite were guilty.

I regret I had not the opportunity yesterday to listen to the ollagoning of the Fianna Fáil Party over their loss of office. I am quite sure that, like the rest of the people of the country, it would to me have been entertaining. It is very ironical, when you think of it. We have the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition coming in here and complaining — complaining, mind you—that a more speedy reduction in prices has not taken place. It is a sad commentary upon the development of political thought in the Fianna Fáil Party that we have had this exhibition of ineptitude on the part of the former Tánaiste. Surely he does not think for a moment that the people of this country, who recently had an opportunity of expressing their view as to the right form of Government for the Republic of Ireland, have forgotten the actions for which his Government were responsible.

One could make many excuses for the large number of new Deputies in this House who were not present when the 1952 Budget was introduced and who, consequently, can have no recollection of the impact of that Budget upon the House and upon the people of the country. In saying that, I should like to make it clear that all of us welcome the infusion of new blood into this House. One can excuse, therefore, the lack of recollection on the part of the new Deputies. Those of us who were here, however, remember very well that, within the short space of a few hours, the whole economic fabric of this country was ruthlessly interfered with by the Minister for Finance of the Fianna Fáil Government. People who had been living not well but fairly well, workers who had been finding it possible to cope with the cost of living during the three years of the first inter-Party Government found themselves overnight in an impossible position when the prices of essential foodstuffs particularly and, after that, of commodities which are described by many as "luxuries"—that is, cigarettes and the worker's drink—were increased to such an extent as to put them out of the reach of the working people of the country.

I have often thought that the Opposition, when they were in Government, were so out of touch with the feelings of the people that they did not really appreciate what they were doing. They did not appreciate, for instance, that in the built-up areas—areas such as Ballyfermot, Cabra, Kimmage and other areas around the City of Dublin with which many of us are particularly acquainted—they put butter off the table of the working people and for the three years of Fianna Fáil mismanagement there was nothing within their reach except margarine. Many will think that that is an exaggeration. If anybody doubts what I say, I suggest that he should go around these areas, talk to the people there, go into their houses and see for himself whether or not what I have said is true.

The people then got an opportunity of expressing their view upon the actions of Fianna Fáil in Government —and they expressed it in no undecided way. They said they wanted a change. They have got a change. I committed myself to the policy of reduction in prices. I believe that prices can be reduced and I believe that if we have to reduce them by way of subsidy—and at the moment it seems there is no other method of doing it—it should be done. In every democratic country in the world where Governments are found who consider the welfare of the working people, the policy of the subsidisation of essential foodstuffs is accepted.

This Government have given evidence that they propose to reduce prices. Inside the short period of a month, they have already announced a very substantial reduction in the price of butter. The best reply that Fianna Fáil can make to that is to come into this House and to ask us to reverse their policy—not our policy but their policy—and to reduce prices immediately still further. I believe that this Government will bring the cost of living down to a level somewhat similar to that at which it was before Fianna Fáil assumed office under false pretences in 1951. Fianna Fáil, at that time, were a minority Government. They had not the support of the people. They were here by virtue of the votes of Deputies who were not elected to uphold Fianna Fáil—and, when the opportunity came, the people of Ireland gave their verdict in no uncertain way on the actions of those particular Deputies.

Some of us will recall, too, that in the 1951 election certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party pledged themselves openly and in writing to the continuation of the policy of reduction of the price of essential foodstuffs by way of subsidy. No sooner did they achieve office than they went back on that promise. Reading the newspapers to-day and reading the comments of the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McGilligan, I think it must be admitted that he summed up the situation fairly accurately. What we have witnessed on the part of the former Tánaiste, the present Deputy-Leader of the Opposition, is no more than an outburst of anger at the loss of office. Let nobody allow himself to be misled: the people of Ireland will recognise it for what it is, an outburst of anger.

The people of this country await the progress of stable Government and the improvement of their lot, and I have no doubt that this Government will bring about that improvement. God knows, the people deserve it after having endured three purgatorial years of Fianna Fáil Government.

For cool, cynical, reaction to the public confidence it would be difficult to beat Deputy Dunne's contribution and, in fact, that of the other Labour Deputies who have spoken here to-day. It is notable that Fine Gael refuse to defend this Finance Bill and leave the job to the Labour Party.

What Deputy Dunne has not told the House, however, is that the provisions of the 1952 Budget, with all the hardships which it imposed on the Irish people, are still in force—and they told us here in 1953, speaker after speaker, that we had re-enacted the 1952 Budget. Anybody who looks up the speeches made in 1952 will find as colourful and, I might say, sulphurous a collection of adjectives describing that Budget as one would get anywhere in the world. "Savage," I think, was the one most frequently used. That savage Budget which imposed savagery with a cool, calculating hand is still in operation and was re-enacted, according to themselves, in 1953 and has now been adopted by Deputy Sweetman, the present Minister for Finance. Deputy Dunne recants everything he said in 1952 and 1953 and defends the same proposals here to-night. Is it not within the public memory, short and all as it is, that there was a public meeting called outside the General Post Office in O'Connell Street, that people were injured and motor cars damaged in a violent Labour Party protest against the 1952 Budget? That Budget is being adopted and recommended by Deputy Dunne, Deputy Kyne and all the other Coalition speakers who spoke here to-day.

Is it any wonder, therefore, that this Party would, with all the vehemence at its command, show up the hollowness and the hypocrisy of this attitude? Is it any wonder that the name of politician stinks in the nostrils of a great many people of this country?

The votes show that.

The votes were got because the promises were made not on the public platforms but on the kitchen floors of the housewives in every house in Ireland that within a month of a change of Government butter would be down to 2/10 a lb., tea to 2/8 a lb. and sugar down 4d. a lb. Do we not know that these promises were made? It is on these promises that the votes were got and the change, of Government brought about.

A Deputy

What about the threats your people made?

He knows he is wrong.

I do not know whether the new Deputy represents an urban or a rural constituency, but if he represents an urban constituency and goes to the working-class areas he will find that those statements were made.

That is very wrong.

Deputy Bartley must be allowed to speak without interruption.

There is a noticeable difference in regard to the conduct on the two sides of the House. It did not matter whether Fianna Fáil was on this side of the House or on the opposite, they always afforded Deputies a hearing no matter how unwelcome it was.

That is not right.

There is no doubt that the Deputy cannot take any kind of criticism. I have here a document issued by Fine Gael which was supported by the Labour Party.

It is a very fine document.

It is a very fine document, indeed, because it succeeded in getting votes that the Coalition set-up would never have got otherwise. What I want to stress about it is the footnote to it which says that all these rises in prices were due to the deliberate action of the Fianna Fáil Government. It is quite obvious that that document was meant to convey and did, in fact, convey to the hard-pressed housewives that the deliberate action which brought about these prices would be reversed and that a Supplementary Budget would be introduced and that the 1951 scale of prices would be back within a month of the Coalition taking over. That was the understanding, although the words were not so palpably obvious as the picture on the document says. There was no doubt whatsoever in the mind of the average voter that this document was meant to convey that this scale of prices would be reintroduced within a short time of the change of Government.

If that is not so and if the Fine Gael and the other Coalition speakers say that that was not the impression, we have no less an authority than the present Minister for Finance for the truth of the statement that that was, in fact, the public expectation. The Minister for Finance told us here that in the first two months of the financial year revenue dropped by over £1,000,000. Everybody knows how that drop was brought about. It was brought about by the anticipation of people in business of an immediate reduction in the taxes and in the things which were spoken of from every platform in the country and by every candidate in the country who advocated the Coalition. That is the obvious answer to the quibbles now as to the time in which the reductions are to take place.

We will have a duty in our speech making to the country to retain the speeches which have been made in this House on this Bill and we will ask the people in the various places where we speak as to whether the speeches made in this Dáil were understood by them to be the truth in regard to the promises that were made to them when their votes were being sought. I have no doubt whatsoever as to what the public reaction to it will be.

Is the Deputy threatening us?

They did not believe you in the last election.

Deputy O'Leary is a very prolific interrupter. I must say that he is given the greatest latitude by the Ceann Comhairle.

That is a reflection on the Chair. Surely it is not in order?

I do not think it is as much a reflection on the Chair as on Deputy O'Leary, not that I want to reflect on him.

Does the Deputy want to be put out?

Sin é an scéal mar a fheicimse é. Cuireadh an Comhrialtas isteach ar bhréeaga agus ar mhealladh bréagach. Ní raibh aon cheist sa toghchán ach ceist an ime, an aráin, an tsiúcra agus praghas na dtoitíní agus na beorach. Ní raibh aon cheist eile ann ach sin. Mura gcuireann an Comhrialtas na geallúintí sin i bhfeidhm fanaidís istigh chomh fada agus is féidir leo ach nuair a thabharfaidh siad seans eile do mhuintir na hÉireann gheobhaidh siad freagra eile seachas an ceann a fuaradar.

Fuair tusa do fhreagra i nGaillimh.

Do chaill an Comhrialtas 700 vótaí i nGaillimh.

Interruptions in Irish are as disorderly as those in English.

I only want to intervene briefly to make a few comments. It is difficult to understand why the Government are perturbed because we use our right in this House to express our opinion of the shortcomings of the Government at our first opportunity to do so. Some Deputies tried to suggest that we are opposing the Financial Resolution brought in by ourselves.

I would remind Deputy Dunne, who admitted he was not present in the House when the debate began, that the motion which we are discussing is that: "The Dáil declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill because it fails to give effect to pledges made by Ministers before their elevation to office to bring about the immediate reduction of taxation which they had asserted to be practicable." That is the motion which we have a perfect right to put before this House and which the country expects us to put before this House in order to expose the shortcomings of the Government and their betrayal in the first instance of not merely a promise or promises but a blitz of promises which enabled them to secure that small margin of support which secured for them sufficient votes to form a Government. As one of the previous speakers here has said, 13 per cent. extra votes is all that has to be swayed one way or another to upset that which is claimed to be a very decisive result in the election. On this occasion some of us ask ourselves, do the people expect reductions in prices or do they not. The Deputies opposite seem eager to deny that they made promises of any kind. Did they make promises or did they not? Those of us who had to fight the election and went around the country—do they think that we are unaware of the actual blitz of promises that was launched on the electorate on this occasion not merely from platforms or by advertisements?

Deputy Lemass yesterday was careful to quote not merely one but several advertisements and to quote from several speeches made in order to put the facts before the people in this House, to convince you people that you definitely made promises; but the people throughout the country who were awaiting results did not need to have definite facts quoted to them from advertisements or from the Press because they know that your canvassers lifted the knocker on every door and at their own fireside promised them everything, and Heaven, too. Nothing was too much. The sky was the limit—better social services, lower prices, higher wages, lower taxation. Heaven on earth was promised to those who were prepared to swallow it at the first opportunity, and there was no doubt left in the minds of the people as to what those promises meant. That is the reason why we want to expose the attitude of the Government in their very first opportunity to implement that blitz of promises which they made by which they have hoodwinked a margin of the people to support them on this occasion. It is surprising that so few were fooled. When one considers the promises made, it is surprising that so few were fooled into supporting the Coalition groups.

Now what have they got? We all remember the interruptions across the floor after the ex-Minister for Finance concluded his last Budget speech when some of the Deputies from this side said it would never come into effect— the electorate would deal with that. Now you are standing over it and you are telling the same people whom you told during the election what you could do and would do——

The Deputy should use the third person.

Do not blame the Ceann Comhairle for everything.

What have you done already? I want to draw attention to the fact that the subsidisation of butter, according to a reply given to a question here to-day, will bring down the cost of living by .058 of a point.

.58 of a point.

.58, I think. Half a point. Slightly over half a point.

A medium.

That is the extent to which subsidies will go and we were assured last night by the previous Minister for Finance in the Coalition Government, Deputy McGilligan, that any further reductions are going to be effected by means of economies; and this is what he said about economies, because he knows perfectly well that the Coalition do not intend doing anything further. He said:—

"Let no one believe that these economies can be achieved this year or next year. If it can be done at the end of our period of office we will have done good work."

There are the promises now. That is what they amounted to. Deputy Dunne was not in the House to hear that, but that is the extent of the promises made by the various groups. That is what they amount to when boiled down. But we had to listen in every constituency to this absolutely impossible programme that was preached off every platform—lower taxation, a higher standard of living, lower prices, better social services. Then naturally we questioned "where will the money come out of?" Some of the speakers found the answer to that, too, and they actually said: "We are spending £8,000,000 on an army. One hydrogen bomb would wipe out the entire Army. There is £8,000,000 to be saved right away." Was that a serious statement or was it not? No matter whether it was or not it is typical of the depths to which they stooped in order to find something with which to attract that margin of support to enable them to secure the extra support in this House.

Yesterday, when Deputy Lemass was proving in his usual logical manner how they had already run away from those promises at the first opportunity, the Minister for Finance said: "Be prepared for a shock to-morrow. You will get a shock to-morrow morning." I bought a copy of every section of the Press this morning to see where we are going to have prices brought down to the 1951 level, whether we were going to have the pint reduced; and I waited for the shock, but I have still got no shock except that he was referring to the failure——

A Deputy

It was on 19th May you got that shock.

——except he was referring to the failure of the public to subscribe to the Dublin Corporation loan. That was the only shock I got this morning, which was also a demonstration of the lack of confidence the investing public have in what is supposed to be a stable Government.

You got a document in your Dáil correspondence this morning. You cannot have read it.

I got no shock.

The mere matter of £150,000.

We know that these promises were made. We read the advertisements to the people that they inserted and we heard their pledges, and so the question arises; do the public expect reductions in prices or do they not? Those of us who move around among the people in rural Ireland know what their supporters even expect. We know what the supporters of the Fine Gael Party even expect. We know that the travellers for the wholesale spirit premises and distillers have hardly been able to book up an order prior to this debate because the people amongst whom they moved expected a reduction in spirits and beer. You have only to discuss the matter with them to prove that the public were actually waiting on a complete reversal of the Budget which you are now putting before the House with your approval.

We think that we have not merely the right but the duty to expose the shortcomings of the Government in failing to give effect to the speeches they made and with which they captured the support of the people on this occasion. As I said here a few days ago, that may be all right—for the Deputies merely to say: "We fooled them. We are here now for five years and we do not give a hoot what those people think. We succeeded in getting here. We will have five years out of it and then Fianna Fáil can take over if they wish". That is all very fine, but it is more serious than that. Those people who think that we should remain silent instead of exposing these things fail to realise that we have not merely a right but a duty here. We shall exercise that right and shall perform that duty on every occasion to expose until the day this Dáil is dissolved, their failure to implement the programme with which they purchased that small margin of votes which enabled them to sit on those benches.

What a short memory you have.

The question we are discussing mainly to-night is one which is agitating the minds and thoughts and study of the people of the world— the cost of living; and how to bring that cost within the level of what the people are prepared to pay is seemingly an insoluble problem. Philosophers, learned men and politicians put forward their views and their suggestions, but apparently with little result. Politicians say: "We are the solution," but usually the section of politicians who proclaim most loudly that they are the solution are those who are in opposition at the time.

I do not know if any solution has been put forward and I cannot say that I see one myself, but I know that one school of thought claim very strongly that the solution is greater production. I know, however, that very often in many parts of the world over-production has led to greater disasters than the opposite, and therefore I have come to the conclusion that, while greater production must naturally provide a greater range of goods for the people's needs, it, in itself, can also be very disastrous. What, then, about the other alternative, lower production and a greater scarcity of these commodities? This must inevitably result in higher prices and increased cost of living.

Where does the solution lie between these two schools of thought? I am afraid that somewhere in between there must be some hidden hand which somehow and in some way determines what is the cost of living and what is the value of goods. Could it be this mysterious thing to which we often hear reference made, but which we are told is a dangerous subject to discuss —almost as dangerous as a discussion of the tenets of our religion—finance?

Is it world finance, the hidden control that controls every effort of the human mind and drives people and nations into internal squabbles, discontent and economic disaster? I do not know, but there seemingly is, somewhere in the life of nations, an influence which is beyond the control of the mind of the average person and it is not worth while seeking a remedy in that direction. It is an important question, but we are told to hush, to be quiet, when we seek to speak of it. It is apparently some deep mysterious subject which can be discussed only by the higher minds and more sensitive brains the world knows. I have been told that the number of these is very small and meanwhile our problem remains unsolved.

If our policy, as seems to be the policy of Governments to-day, is to increase our production and sell a little cheaper than the other fellow can sell in the world markets, so that we sell more goods and acquire greater revenue from outside sources, how far does the Budget we are discussing contain the requirements for development along these lines? Is there embodied in the Budget such plans as will enable the Government to raise, by scientific or other methods, our rate of production per unit and reduce the cost of that production, and if so, what range of products does the Government aim at developing on these lines? Personally I think the greatest possibility is offered by a development of the land of the country and by maintaining more people on the land than we have maintained in the past.

I welcome this motion because it will have the effect of drawing from the Government some indication as to their general policy and thus provide a steady outlook for the community for the next 12 months. The present degree of uncertainty, with the promise of a reduced cost of living and so on, does enfeeble the efforts of the average business person in relation to making purchases, because of the fear that the goods he buys to-day may, if a price reduction takes place during the year, leave him in the position in which he will suffer a loss. A clear statement on that issue is vital.

This motion also is welcome because it will have the effect, not now but in the future, I hope, of compelling those people who go to the electorate and seek their votes to be more candid and honest in their statement of the facts and of the distance they are prepared to go to improve conditions. A policy of reckless promises is a devastating policy which can lead only to disillusionment and, in the long run and over a period of time, to the people placing no trust in the promises of public representatives. That could be a very destructive result and it should be carefully guarded against. At present, we have any amount of that—people can get on to platforms, make reckless promises and seek to persuade the voters by lies and other means to vote for them and lead the community into supporting any "ism" they wish. It is the duty of the Government to make a clear statement as to the lines on which they propose to proceed for the next two years or three years with a view to making conditions easier for the people.

How is this cost of living to be reduced? We know well that it is easy to reduce the cost of commodities by the use of subsidies, but surely no sensible Government will advocate a course of borrowing to reduce prices for the time being, with the dire results that usually follow for the borrower. I suggest that the policy of the Government should be a policy of spending money on education and on the training, even in the primary schools, of the youth of the country into a knowledge of national economics. Let them understand them and let them know the fallacy of the idea which has prevailed and which has been advocated and promoted here, that somehow Governments can work miracles and that money can be made in some mysterious way by the Government in office. I am afraid that notion has been promoted for political purposes. Let us educate our people to understand that no more can be taken out of the pool than is put into it, and, in the long run, we will get our people to understand and to co-operate in the provision of the reasonable requirements of the people.

At the moment, there is no plan other than increased production, except the plan of getting the people to accept a lower standard of living, to take less out of the pool so that the pool will require less to replenish it. Which of these courses is to be adopted? The people of the country are entitled to know from the Government what line of policy they propose to pursue.

If we are to have a reduction in the cost of living is it to be achieved by tightening our belts, living on less and spending less and thus reducing business; or are we going to achieve it by increased production and, if so, by what methods? Give us this information and we will be in a better position to face the realities.

There is, of course, another means but I am afraid that is not generally accepted. Christianity has taught a means by which we can achieve our objectives, by goodwill, fellowship and charity—these principles to provide a means of securing equitable distribution. The adoption of a spirit of goodwill and forbearance has been taught for 2,000 years but all that time we have had wars. Nations have refused to accept these principles and I see no indication at present that we are more likely to adopt them than humanity has been for the last 2,000 years.

It is up to this Government to tell us what their plans are and how they are going to solve the problems which face us. Does this Budget contain anything in the way of a new departure? Responsibility rests with those who sit in the front bench of the Government. It is not by remaining silent or by smart answers across the floor of this House that our problems can be solved. There is no way other than by earnest thought and honest action, by taking the people into their confidence and telling them what they intend to do.

I must speak as one who represents an area that has not alone missed the opportunity of development but has suffered destruction as well. I come from the West of Ireland, where the congests were many some years ago but are now few, not because of Government action to remedy their position, to encourage youth to marry and children to grow up around their own homes, but because the youth are being forced to leave the country due to the fact that there is nothing to entice them or justify them in marrying and rearing their families as their fathers did before them. Is that the policy that is to be pursued? Is the problem to be solved by the elimination of large numbers of the population in the West of Ireland? I want the Government to show me that they are handling this matter in a sincere way and that they intend to remedy the grievances that exist and stop this national suicide. I will vote for no Budget until it embodies a Christian attitude towards a community that has suffered severely under the economic policy adopted here.

The needs of the people in the West of Ireland were few. They lived in a meagre way and never acquired expensive habits. They depended a great deal on home industries and one of the primary industries was the hen roosts. The small profit they acquired from eggs and poultry provided them with the ready money to buy their weekly needs. We all know the value of eggs to-day. They have dropped to an uneconomic price and I want to know what steps the Government intend to take to have that industry reestablished.

As regards cattle, the price which small farmers in the West are able to obtain is more of a deterrent than an advantage. The number of cattle would not amount to more than three or four per year and the margin of profit would, therefore, be very small. The price of pigs is also uncertain again and cannot be depended upon to provide an adequate return.

There is no use talking about finance and about national needs while we are watching the decay of our people. Tariffs have been applied protecting industries in the big centres and this has meant an increased cost of living to those who are not benefiting in any way by employment. The people who are engaging in small home industries, such as poultry keeping and pig production, have had to sell at world prices in order to protect industrialists who have been favoured in every way by Government assistance as well as protection. The result has been the annihilation of the real Irish in this country, the wastage of their farms and homes, small church attendances and schools closing steadily.

What do the present Government intend to do about this situation? If they intend to change their policy we want to know in a general way what that change will be. If they are going to sit back and allow this destruction of which I have spoken to continue, they should not be in office.

The speech we have just heard is the most damning indictment that could be made of the Fianna Fáil Party which has been in power in Ireland for 19 out of the last 22 years. I shall at a later stage comment on one other matter that the Deputy mentioned. Before doing that, may I go back somewhat to the beginning of this debate. It has been noticeable that in the debate on the amendment —there was no debate on the Bill— this week, as last week, we have found the Fianna Fáil Party speaking with two voices. I suggest it would be easier for the country to understand them, as well as easier for the members of this House, if they kept to one line of argument. Deputy Lemass, first of all, when moving his amendment yesterday rated me soundly because last week I had been too specific. Deputy Aiken came along to-day and rated me soundly because I had not been specific enough. Deputy Lemass yesterday made it clear that, so far as he was concerned, he believed the promises that had been made were false promises. Yet, he would have us try to put these promises into effect.

Deputy de Valera said last Tuesday that so far as he was concerned he would not make any such effort. He was quite clear and quite specific on that matter at column 146 of the Official Report, should anybody wish to check the reference.

The plain facts of the matter is that the Deputies on the Opposition Benches do not yet know what hit them when they went to the country. What did hit them was something very simple. It was not anything that was said by the Deputies who now comprise the Government Parties; it was the fact that the people remembered what Fianna Fáil themselves had said in 1951 and the shameless way in which they subsequently broke the promises they had given to the people at that time.

Now, in an effort to throw a smokescreen over that decision of the people, we have this amendment. Of course, this amendment is primarily based on the contention that it should have been possible for this new Government to introduce new financial proposals in the very short time that has elapsed since its formation on the 2nd June last. I do not think that those of us who know Deputy Lemass, and know the case that he is capable of making, can have any doubt whatever, from listening to him yesterday, that Deputy Lemass, of all people, knows quite clearly that the case he was making was entirely without justification and entirely without foundation. The Deputy was long enough in Government to know and realise, and understand and appreciate that it would have been utterly impossible for the newly elected Government of 2nd June last to reframe the budgetary proposals and come in here with new Financial Resolutions in the short interval that has elapsed.

The Deputy also knows, no one better, that unless such proposals are brought in at an early stage in the financial year, they will not have in my own words—I believe the Deputy quoted them yesterday—really operative effect and will not be worthwhile. It is, of course, common knowledge that any Budget introduced by any Minister for Finance must be built up over a certain period of time. It is common knowledge that a Minister for Finance does not produce a Budget in a matter of weeks, He certainly does not produce it in a matter of a couple of weeks, which is all the time that we have had at our disposal.

I have got quite clear evidence of that fact here should anybody wish to challenge me on it. I have got quite clear evidence of the manner in which my predecessor very properly over many months considered the line he should take in his Budget statement when examining the different aspects of it and it is cynical, to say the least of it, that there should be any suggestion now that what was always done even by the Fianna Fáil Administration in relation to taking adequate time to prepare financial proposals should not be done now because Fianna Fáil are over there and we are here.

The position is that it was quite impossible to do any such thing and the Deputies over there know that. They turn then from that in an effort to get out of their responsibilities for that situation. I cannot stress sufficiently the fact that the responsibility is theirs, and theirs alone. We made it quite clear, those of us who now sit on this side of the House and who were in the last Dáil, to the last Fianna Fáil Administration that the one main reason why it was necessary to have an early election was to enable the new Administration to have sufficent time and opportunity to put its own proposals before this House when the new Dáil met. That was clearly set out in the motion of Deputy Costello on 11th March last; it was clearly set out in the arguments that were then put to the House and negatived by Fianna Fáil in the Division Lobby when they refused to give the new Administration that chance and that opportunity.

Now, having themselves, and only themselves taken that responsibility, they are endeavouring to set up this smokescreen in order to shift the blame from where it really belongs, namely, on their own shoulders. Deputy Aiken, when speaking here to-day, said he wanted a clear statement of our financial policy. Even taking the expression of opinion that was put upon the statement I made by Deputy Lemass, I thought that what I said last week was clear enough. A few minutes ago Deputy Maguire asked a question more or less on the same lines.

I thought last week I was as specific as I could possibly be. So far as we are concerned we want the people to know exactly what the position is and exactly what the position will be during the current financial year because of the inheritance to which I have already referred. I made it quite clear last week, and I make it quite clear again now in reply to Deputy Aiken, that so far as this Government is concerned we believe it is proper that current expenditure should be met from current income. It was for that reason that I made it clear last week that the additional subvention that has been given towards the cost of living will be met out of the economies which we propose and which would not have been proposed by our predecessors.

As part of the criticism that has been made we are told by this amendment that we should have specified the particular proposals. What happened on 21st April last when my predecessor introduced these proposals? May I digress here to say that, no matter how we may differ in politics or outlook, I sincerely hope my predecessor will be soon restored to health and back again in this House so that we may have an opportunity of discussing his proposals and my proposals across the floor of this House.

My predecessor in his Budget statement indicated that he was proposing to make an economy of £4,000,000. Did he give any indication of where that economy would be made on the 21st April last? He did not. Did he give anything other than a general direction as to where these economies would be made in the subsequent six-week period during which he remained in office? He did not. Is it reasonable, therefore, that when he did not do that having had months in which to prepare and to consider the matter, to suggest that we in this Government after a couple of weeks in office should give a specific indication? The fact is we have already instituted searching inquiries into certain aspects—indeed, into all aspects—of Government expenditure with a view to ensuring that appropriate expenditure will be met in the appropriate way.

We were told by Deputy Lemass yesterday when he was introducing this amendment that in order to carry out the economies that had been mentioned, economies to the extent of the concessions which we have announced, there would have to be an appalling cut in and an appalling hardship inflicted on the Civil Service.

The Deputy, of course, knew quite well that, when he was talking yesterday and saying that 95 per cent. of all expenditure went on salaries, he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek.

Mr. Lemass

What about the social welfare service?

Even with that proviso which was not made yesterday, the Deputy still knows that he is speaking with his tongue in his cheek. Suppose, for example, the Deputy was right, why did he not put that same point of view to his colleague, my predecessor? My predecessor, in his Budget statement on the 21st April last, indicated that he was going to find savings of some £4,000,000 in this way. Of course, we know quite well that this is another of the inconsisten cies which we have seen from the Fianna Fáil Party. We will see more of them from now on from that side of the House.

It was interesting, too, to hear Deputy Lemass, as the spokesman of his Party, coming out as the defender of the Civil Service. The Fianna Fáil Party had, in the last Government, a Parliamentary Secretary who came out on this subject with such views as Deputy Kennedy came out with at Collinstown on the 19th April, 1953. Deputy Kennedy told us at that time that there was a 20 per cent. redundancy in the Civil Service. Apparently that was then part of the line and of the argument that he wished, and that the Party wished to put out as regards the Civil Service.

It is interesting to hear that Party now come out as the defender of the Civil Service in view of the fact that they have left us the burden of honouring the commitment in regard to the arbitration award to which they gave their accord when they were the Government, and which, as I indicated last week, will be honoured by this Government. Of course, we know quite well that the speech which was made by Deputy Kennedy when he was dealing with the 20 per cent. redundancy was merely one of those speeches which is made down the country for the purpose of getting a particular type of vote there, but that a different speech altogether would be made by the Deputy when speaking in this House.

We were told, too, by speakers on this amendment that we only had to— shall we say?—shell out the £10,000,000 extra that was put there by the additional taxation that had been imposed in 1952. I only wish that the £10,000,000 that was there in 1952 was there now, because if it was there now, as it was then, it would be a very simple operation for anybody sitting in this seat. The fact, of course, is that if you compare the estimated current expenditure for this year with the actual revenue intake for 1952-53, you find that there is a difference of £9.7 million, which is miraculously near the £10,000,000 about which we were talking two years ago, on the Budget at that time. It is unfortunate that expenditure has risen to the extent it has since that day and has, as I say, swallowed up the gap that was there then and about which we were speaking at that time.

It is significant also that, in criticising the proposals that were made by this Government in introducing the financial proposals of our predecessors, not one of the Deputies on the other side made reference to what they did in 1951. They came in here in 1951 and adopted the Budget of their predecessors; they adopted the Financial Resolutions of their predecessors; they adopted the Finance Bill of their predecessors and, in addition, they, too, made a couple of slight variations. The variations that they brought in were brought in in exactly the same way as we have introduced the variation to which I referred last week.

No doubt, Deputy Lemass remembers that the Minister for Agriculture of that day brought in at once a Supplementary Estimate for £400,000, and that the Deputy himself, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, brought in a similar Supplementary Estimate on food subsidies, of which £250,000 was specifically referable to the change in policy. There is an exact analogy between what they did then and what we are doing now and, merely because they are on that side of the House, they bring in this motion for the purpose of throwing a smoke screen around the fact that the election is over, and that they were beaten and soundly beaten in that election.

We heard a lot, too, during this debate about the cost of living, and, again, we find the Fianna Fáil Party speaking with two voices. During the election campaign they were at the very greatest pains to make it clear— Deputy de Valera, Deputy Lemass and right down along the line— that the Fine Gael Party were promising nothing—that there were no promises being made. Time and time again they said that. Now they come into this House on this motion and suggest that we were promising all round. The Sunday Press of the 2nd May has this banner headline: “Mr. Costello has been saying that he is making no promises, declared An Taoiseach at Tuam last night. He speaks wisely.” Deputy Traynor, who was then Minister for Defence, speaking at Parnell Square on 1st May said that: “A Fine Gael election leaflet compared the prices of goods in 1951 with the prices of the same goods to-day.... There was not a word in the leaflet to suggest that these prices would be reduced.” To-day they are telling us that in that leaflet we were promising the sun, moon and stars. Deputy Lemass himself at Banagher on 4th May said that “Not one Fine Gael leader has committed himself to subsidise prices. That fact has at last been made clear.”

Mr. Lemass

It is very clear now.

But the Deputy was saying yesterday that we had promised to subsidise prices. We come along finally to no less a person than the editor of the Irish Press speaking, not during the turmoil of a meeting during an election campaign when perhaps there may be rival meetings going on, but speaking quietly from his editorial chair on the 6th May, when he says: “Mr. Costello stresses in every speech that he will promise nothing.” But the whole basis of this amendment is that promises were made at every corner, and that the Deputy wants those promises put into immediate operation.

As I said a moment ago, so far as the cost of living is concerned we made it quite clear that we were going to shape our policy along lines similar to the lines that had been adopted by the inter-Party Government between 1948 and 1951. We made it quite clear in the election, both in the hustings and in the canvass, that we were going to remind the Fianna Fáil Party on every possible occasion of the line they had taken in the 1951 campaign and of the manner in which they had duped the people on that occasion and of the manner in which they had gone back on the election promises they made. I think I am speaking not only of my own experience and the experience of my Party, but of the experience of all Parties on this side of the House when I say that the real feeling of the people was their resentment not merely in the general election but in the by-elections, that they had been fooled by Fianna Fáil in 1951 by those undertakings so solemnly given on that occasion.

We heard from Deputy Childers to-day their explanation of why they had had to go back on those promises. We heard from him that it was solely a world consideration and that it was only a world trend. Of course, the facts are that it was the spring of 1951 which showed the peak of world prices and that is clearly shown from this— that when you take the record, the index of import prices produced by the statistics office, a couple of months from that peak you will find that it was within two or three months after the last Government got into office in September, 1951, that there was the highest peak of import prices and after that date the curve had tended downwards—the import prices, the prices of things that had to be brought in from outside were all the time falling gradually and that it was the converse in regard to our own cost of living here at home.

While Deputy Childers was speaking I thought of the current issue of The Economist. It so happens that in the current issue, dated June 19th, we have a table available to us of the prices— the cost of living shall we say—in various European countries. We have in that issue the cost of living for 1952 and 1953. Unfortunately this particular issue that I have in front of me does not go back to 1951 because I venture to say if it did go back to that the comparison would be even more striking. The countries that are given here are set out in alphabetical order and it so happens in that alphabetical order Ireland is seventh. And what is the position? In Austria between 1952 and 1953 the cost of living has gone down one point; in Belgium it has remained static; in Denmark it has remained static; in France it has gone down one point; in Germany it has gone down two points; in Greece it has gone up and in Ireland it has gone up seven points. So that out of the first seven picked out alphabetically, in five it has not gone up, in Ireland it has gone up; and in Greece alone of the other seven countries it has also gone up. I think that somewhat demolishes the argument we had here from Deputy Childers at some length to-day.

Deputy Derrig spoke last night and referred to the fact that we were not taking sufficient account of depreciation in our capital schemes. He knows, I am sure, and the House knows, of course, that there is included in the Finance Bill in Section 28 a specific provision that was brought in for the first time by Deputy McGilligan in the period in which he was Minister for Finance in the previous inter-Party Government by which the cost of these capital schemes is amortised by annuity over a period of 30 years and, indeed, far from that being too liberal a method of finance I have heard people say that in making the provision that these capital services should be paid back over a period of 30 years we are being far too strict and conservative rather than the reverse.

Again, on that small point that Deputy Derrig raised, we hear the two voices speaking for Fianna Fáil, because Deputies of this House will all remember that my predecessor based part of his Budget on the fact that there had been too large an account taken in for depreciation by C.I.E. in their accounts and that my predecessor considered that it was wrong that as much depreciation should be taken in as had been taken in, in earlier years. The basis of my predecessor's Budget, in which he provided for repayment by C.I.E., was the repayment of moneys for which credit had been taken for current depreciation when my predecessor considered that that depreciation should not have been charged to current income but should be charged to capital—exactly the reverse of what Deputy Derrig said last night.

While my predecessor took that line for 1952-53 and 1953-54, the members who were in the House on the last occasion will remember when we were discussing the out-turn of the Budget for 1951-52 and when we were on the opposite side of the House, we alleged that there had been deliberate loading of the out-turn of that financial year by my predecessor. One of the things by which it was then suggested that there had been such loading was the charge for depreciation and for renewals put in for C.I.E. If what my predecessor did in regard to the years 1952-53 and 1953-54 is correct, it would have been equally correct to do it for 1951-52, because exactly the same principle is involved, and it is quite clear in that alone that the charge that was then made by us that the Minister was deliberately loading the out-turn of that Budget for the purpose of discrediting Deputy McGilligan has been clearly proved now that we are on this side of the curtain to see the facts and figures.

Deputies will remember also that there was a by-election in Cork City in March last. I have here one of the posters that were put out, put out, of course, not merely by a local organisation but by Fianna Fáil headquarters itself.

It was suggested in this poster dealing with the National Development Fund that £5,000,000 a year for five years had already been provided for such development. That is one of the reasons people were urged to vote No. 1 for Fitzgerald.

Deputy Briscoe last night made exactly the same suggestion, that the money had already been provided. I only wish that the money were in fact there—£5,000,000 a year for five years. Again, it would make the task much easier for whoever might be sitting in this seat. All that happened was that the Government of the day indicated that there was power in the Act to do that. There was no question of the money being left available for it to be done, as there was when £22,500,000 was left in the Loan Counterpart Fund when my predecessor took up office from Deputy McGilligan in June, 1951. We are not in the same happy position.

Deputy Briscoe last night also tried to suggest by implication—I am not certain he did not go even further than implication but I content myself by saying by implication—that he had an assurance from the previous Government that they were going to provide funds to enable the Dublin Corporation to expand, by approximately three times, the employment content of the schemes for the current year as compared with last year. I think he mentioned a figure of 1,200 men last night. The employment content for last year was 400 and 1,200 is three times 400. He suggested that the previous Minister had made all the necessary arrangements, that all the necessary machinery was there and that the only danger was that we might stop it. The unfortunate part of it for him is that I have the record and the record, far from showing that, shows indeed a very different story because on the 21st May last, three days after the election, my predecessor not merely did not increase the provision that was going to be made from the National Development Fund for this Vote, but actually decreased it by £100,000.

It was in existence then.

The position was quite clear. The proposal that was put up was for a grant of £500,000 and on the 21st May, my predecessor decreased that £500,000 by £100,000 to £400,000. That was not anything like the story that Deputy Briscoe tried to make us believe last night.

It existed already.

Of course it did exist in May of this year. Even Deputy Lemass knows that Deputy Briscoe is merely putting his foot further into the mire. The fact, of course, is—and let everybody in the House be quite clear as to what even in the interim period I have done in that respect—that I have given instructions, not on the question of figures because I want to be quite sure where the figures stand, but to see that the appropriate allocations on that Vote will be made to ensure that at least the same level of employment will be maintained this year until we have an opportunity of looking into the matter.

May I come to other things in regard to the National Development Fund? Deputy Derrig last night referred——

Mr. Lemass

There was no National Development Fund last year.

Do not be trying to create a diversion. That is an old game.

The Minister is in possession.

He knows this is harmful.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister explain what he means by keeping the allocation at the same figure as last year?

Does the Deputy not remember the Government decision of the 27th November of last year?

Mr. Lemass

There was no National Development Fund last year.

There was, There was an allocation made on the 27th November, 1953. That was the allocation that was given by my predecessor for a period of four months and when it came to this year, he decreased the allocation for a period of 12 months compared to what previously had been there for a period of four months.

Mr. Lemass

You have got it all wrong.

I have got it all right. The trouble with the Deputy is that I have got it all right.

You can always know——

Mr. Lemass

The Dublin Corporation is left holding the baby here.

Order! The Minister.

If Deputy Lemass has forgotten the allocation that his Government made, I shall willingly send him a little note giving him the effect of the decision. Deputy Derrig last night used the phrase "wild cat schemes" about the capital programme. Let me be quite clear that that phrase "wild cat schemes" is Deputy Derrig's, not mine. I did not coin that phrase in respect to anything that might be there. I took the precaution, however, at a very early date of ascertaining what some of the proposals were that were pending at the time that we came into Government for the purposes of allocation from this National Development Fund. I found that some of the proposals that were pending were: a proposal to rebuild one barracks at a cost of £266,000; to rebuild part only of another barracks at a cost of £220,000. I found there was a proposal still standing—though proposals had been knocked down—this proposal was still standing and presumably was being retained for implementation or consideration at a later stage—to spend no less a sum than £200,000 on this building in which we are, Leinster House. I found there was another proposal to spend a similar sum of £200,000 for a new headquarters for the Garda Síochána.

Apparently that was not considered sufficient and there was to be another £100,000 provided for new headquarters for the Dublin Metropolitan Division of the Garda Síochána. I found that in addition there was a proposal pending to spend £1,890,000 on new Garda barracks throughout the country, that there was a further proposal to spend £2,100,000 on building 700 houses at no less than £3,000 per house.

Mr. Lemass

For whom?

For the purpose of the Guards—£3,000 a house for 700 houses notwithstanding that we all know on all sides of the House what is the cost of a house for the ordinary person who wants to build a house, to get married and to start his family.

I went on from that and I found that, apparently, it was believed that the arrangements for the criminal courts in Dublin were not sufficiently satisfactory. Maybe they are not, but I find it difficult to understand the provision that was put in in respect of them, the provision that was proposed, presumably, by the authority of the then Minister, for a central criminal court, a court of criminal appeal and district courts and a new prison. Perhaps the idea was that there would be people protesting at their other expenditure and they would want therefore to make certain that they had adequate provision for them in such a new Bridewell. The amount for that set of new criminal courts was no less a sum than £600,000.

Some of these things that I am mentioning—and I am not suggesting otherwise—are no doubt excellent ideas in their own, excellent things, but there is a due and a proper priority in respect of a country such as this and we must in our country cut our cloth according to our measure.

Then I went on and I found that the predecessor of Deputy General Mulcahy in the Department of Education had submitted there certain further schemes which, again, I say may be excellent, excellent in their conception, but they are not things that will help to produce at this stage more wealth for the country. I suggest that the figures indicate that they were being planned in a way and in a manner that was and is and will be far beyond our means—a new national library, for example, at a cost of £1,000,000, a new historical museum in Kilmainham Jail at a cost of £100,000, additional accommodation for the National Gallery in Merrion Street at a cost of £500,000 and a Folk Museum in Kilmainham Hospital at another cost of £500,000. However desirable those things may be——

Mr. Lemass

Is the Deputy suggesting these expenditures were approved?

These expenditures were sent forward by the respective Departments.

Mr. Lemass

Who were asked to make suggestions for possible schemes of work.

They were sent forward by the respective Departments and I do not imagine for one second that any Department would send forward to the National Development Committee projects for approval unless the Minister in charge of that Department approved of the project so sent forward.

Mr. Lemass

To be done some time.

If the Deputy considers that that type of what I might term millionaire conception——

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister read out all the projects that were submitted by all the Departments?

——is a suitable one for the country then I think he and I would differ in that respect.

Mr. Lemass

Read out the projects submitted by the Department of Agriculture. Will you read out these projects? I am trying to get all the facts available.

Take your medicine. You were ranting here yesterday for one and a half hours.

The Deputy yesterday was putting a lot of things into people's mouths that were not there.

Mr. Lemass

It would be a good idea to read out the whole list, not those of only two Departments.

You can give them in the Irish Press in the morning.

I think the list I have given is sufficiently frightening.

Mr. Lemass

Were there any projects from the Department of Lands?

Give it to us in the morning in the Irish Press.

What about the Department of Lands?

Mr. Lemass

Were there any projects from the Department of Lands? What do you think of them?

Unfortunately, the only project there was from the Department of Lands was already turned down before the last Government left office.

Did the Minister find out anything about the biscuit factory?

The Minister must be allowed to make his concluding speech.

There was something about a blue lagoon.

We will approach this question of national development in a different way. We will ensure that the resources that there are of men, material and of money are made available for things that will not merely give employment in the interim period while they are being produced, such as these, but will give a sound and a lasting contribution towards increasing production and, in that way, increasing the wealth of our people. It is on that basis and on increasing the national wealth that we believe we will be able to ensure that we will get into the Exchequer sufficient moneys to be able to carry on the business of Government.

We had a discussion—perhaps discussion is the wrong word—we had a speech last night, several speeches, on the meaning of the words "reduced taxation" and "reduced taxes". Deputy Lemass quoted a statement which I made a week ago. He did not quote the context in which it was made. The context was quite clear. It was in the context of the questions put by Deputy de Valera as to what was in our Government policy. "Reducing taxation" Deputy de Valera on that occasion was trying to say meant reducing the total volume of tax that was collected. "Reducing taxation" so far as the people understand it means that they have to give less to the Government out of every £ of their own money and that the rates of taxes are lower. That is the way the people understand it and it is towards that aim and that object that we propose to push our policy.

Finance Bill, 1954—amendment in the name of Deputy Lemass to delete certain words and to substitute others. I am putting the motion as set out in the Order Paper.

Division challenged.

Finance Bill, 1954. The motion was: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time". To that Deputy Lemass proposed an amendment to delete all words after "That" and substitute other words. I am putting the question: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

Mr. Lemass

I do not think the Leas-Cheann Comhairle put the question in that form, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand." He put the amendment as a direct motion.

If the Deputy wishes I will read the amendment so that the Dáil will perfectly understand what is being done.

Mr. Lemass

As the question was put first, Deputies on this side thought they would be voting in the "Tá" lobby; now they are to vote in the "Níl" lobby.

You had better get used to that.

That is the usual form in which it is put.

He can do what I often did, put somebody at the top of the stairs to direct Deputies.

Mr. Lemass

I want to make sure that Deputies on this side of the House and on the other side of the House do not vote in the wrong lobby.

The motion was, "That the Finance Bill, 1954, be now read a Second Time." To that Deputy Lemass proposed an amendment as follows:—

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—"the Dáil declines to give a second reading to the Bill because it fails to give effect to pledges made by Ministers before their elevation to office to bring about the immediate reduction of taxation which they had asserted to be practicable."

The question now is "That the words proposed to be deleted stand". On that question a division is being taken.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 63.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Johnny.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynods, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully James.
  • Tuly, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Doyle and Spring; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard.
Motion—"That the Bill be read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
Question declared carried. Amendment lost.

The main motion is: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Lemass

On that motion, I should like to say a few words of explanation relative to certain remarks of the Minister for Finance. He referred to projects which had been submitted for consideration to the interdepartmental committee in charge of the National Development Fund. Members of the previous Dáil will be aware, from the discussion which took place on the National Development Fund Bill——

On a point of order. Is this motion open for discussion?

No, it is not open for discussion. The debate has closed.

Is not the discussion on the motion for the Second Reading of the Bill concluded?

That motion was before the House with the amendment. The motion: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time," was discussed with the amendment to that motion and a decision has been taken on the amendment. I am now putting the main question. I think Deputy Lemass understands that.

Mr. Lemass

Only if that is agreed. I am not saying that is a desirable precedent.

It is not a precedent. It is a practice of the House and I submit that we are in the middle of taking a decision on that.

Mr. Lemass

I submit, on a point of order, that while it is undoubtedly true there were many occasions in the past when the motion for the Second Reading and a reasoned amendment were debated together that was done by agreement and there was no such arrangement on this occasion. I want to make it clear that I have no desire to delay the passage of the Bill at all or delay the Second Reading, but it is, in my view, an undesirable precedent to establish that the Second Reading be automatically conceded if a reasoned amendment is defeated.

I want to make it clear that there is no such thing as agreement necessary, that it is the practice and the convention of the House and the rules, that both the amendment and the motion are before the House at the same time.

Mr. Lemass

Only by agreement. I have no desire to dispute the point now, but I think it is a bad precedent to establish. We could have one or more reasoned amendments.

I am not establishing a precedent. It has been long since established.

Mr. Lemass

I cannot agree with that and I want to be on record as not agreeing.(Interruptions.) I submit I am entitled to make a point of order without being interrupted by the Deputies opposite, and if I am not entitled to do that, this Bill will not pass.

The Deputy is quite entitled to make his point of order.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30th June, 1954.
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