Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 1954

Vol. 147 No. 3

National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1954—Second Stage.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Sweetman)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill proposes to amend the law in relation to the preservation of national monuments. Experience of the working of the National Monuments Act, 1930, has brought to light certain practical difficulties which it is desired to resolve, and some simplification of procedure is also proposed. The 1930 Act, which defines the word "monument" in a very comprehensive manner, enabled the Commissioners of Public Works or local authorities to become the guardians or owners as the case may be, of any monument

"... the preservation of which is a matter of national importance by reason of the historical, architectural, traditional, artistic or archaeological interest attaching thereto".

Our country is very rich in monuments but it is not possible for the State to assume ownership or guardianship of every monument which might be represented as worthy of preservation. A choice of the most important must therefore be made. There are about 500 monuments or groups of monuments in the ownership or guardianship of the Commissioners of Public Works for maintenance. About 200 of these have been dealt with under the 1930 Act and the balance under earlier enactments. In addition some 200 Preservation Orders have been made under the 1930 Act with a view to preventing demolition, removal, injury, defacement, etc., of the structures covered by the Orders.

The amendments now proposed are mostly of a machinery or administrative character, the more important being:—

(a) Provision to enable the transfer if considered necessary to the Commissioners of Public Works from local authorities of national monuments of special interest which are in the guardianship or ownership of such authorities but which under existing law cannot be transferred;

(b) Provision to expedite the issue of Preservation Orders so as to render this procedure less cumbrous in administration and therefore more valuable and effective;

(c) Provision for the making of temporary Preservation Orders to afford protection to monuments which are discovered to be in immediate danger of injury;

(d) Provision to secure that certain monuments to be specified in published lists shall not be interfered with without notice to the Commissioners of Public Works;

(e) Provision to enable a national monument in the ownership of the Commissioners of Public Works to be removed to the site of another national monument if the commissioners consider such a course desirable;

(f) Provision whereby in urgent cases authorised persons can be permitted to conduct an archaeological excavation without a formal licence;

(g) Provision to strengthen the position in the matter of the restriction of the illegal export of archaeological objects;

(h) Provision to place the National Monuments Advisory Council on a more appropriate basis as regards tenure of office and to give more latitude in the nomination of ex-officio members.

That is the general scheme of the Bill and a summary of the main provisions. So far as the detailed provisions are concerned I think it is hardly necessary for me to go into them at any great length but if any Deputy would wish that I would, even on this Second Stage, go into any section in detail, of course I will be glad to do so.

Mr. Moylan

When the National Monuments Bill of 1930 was being discussed in the Dáil, a great many fears were expressed about the danger that might be contained in the Bill in regard to intrusion on individual rights and property. Experience has shown that those fears were groundless and events have proved that the action taken then was a wise action. I think we can approach this Bill, which is a broader one, with less timidity than the previous Bill was approached. This Bill, as I see it, makes further provisions for the protection and preservation of national monuments, the prevention of their destruction, and ensures that the educational and prestige value of these monuments, buildings and objects as such, shall not be lost to the nation. The difficulty of framing a Bill in their regard that will ensure against any possible infringement or alleged infringement of individual rights is so great that we can only try to weigh the eventual national benefit against any minor, temporary individual inconvenience, and we must be prepared to run the risk of occasionally creating such an inconvenience in the national interest.

Our considered views embodied in a measure of this nature should be slightly in advance of current public opinion, if public opinion is to be properly informed, interested and formulated along the right lines. I believe that conditions in regard to matters of this sort are to-day far better than they were in 1930. There is greater interest generally, a wider knowledge and a more obvious desire on the part of the public to co-operate with the authorities. Sometimes I do personally think that it is impossible to concede all the demands that are made for the care and protection of buildings of reputedly historical importance, and generous as I would wish the State to be in a matter of this sort, I do realise that there must be a limit to expenditure. I have in mind principally demands, sometimes very insistent, for the protection and preservation of a number of 18th Century houses, the architectural features of which are altogether similar, and I do think the preservation of a few outstanding examples should be adequate. Many of the demands made concern buildings whose historical significance is "That lowlier rooftrees are sturdier for their fall" and I am not displaying any interest in those.

However, legislation will be of very little use if we are not prepared to make adequate provision for taking advantage of the power the Dáil will give. I wonder if the Minister is satisfied that all we need is legal authority and has he any misgivings as I have about the adequacy of inspectorial staff and field staff? The Minister must remember also what an important place the national monument must have in any such work as this and he must be aware that it is impossible to care for properly and display properly the material already acquired, material which is being daily accumulated due to the inadequacy of space in the museum. I think further that the Minister might look into the fact that the museum staff has been greatly diminished for various reasons. This will be an agreed measure and I do not think the Dáil will at any time oppose the needed expenditure and the Minister should ensure in putting this piece of legislation through that its effect will not be nullified, no matter how difficult his position is, by the lack of adequate financial provision.

Mr. T. Lynch

I have always had a deep interest in our historical monuments. I happen to be a member for a long time of the historical society and I now have the honour to be chairman of that society in Waterford. In regard to this measure Deputy Moylan mentioned the museum. I am not sure whether the museum is under the authority of the Minister or not but there are museum pieces that could be classed as national monuments even though they might be only small items and they have been acquired by the museum. That is a good thing, but the museum has so many objects there that they are not able to display them and many of the pieces that the museum has acquired would have more of a local interest than a Dublin interest and, wherever possible, these items should be sent down the country on permanent loan to the various centres if local authorities or local people are prepared to provide for their permanent exhibition.

One of the most important problems facing the Commissioners of Public Works—and they have done their work very well in preserving monuments—is the sign-posting after preservation. It is very important to have it done in as concise a form as possible in relation to the historical place, building, monument or whatever the object may be. There is a danger, and there has been a danger during the past seven or eight years, of the destruction and the wiping out altogether of the various liosanna and mounds that are spread throughout the country. They were preserved down through the years, some say through the superstition of the people, who thought if they removed them or did anything to them that they might bring them bad luck or that the fairies might come out. Now, of course, we are in a mechanical age and we have acquired such things as bulldozers and tractors——

Mr. Moylan

Would the Deputy regard Master McGrath as a national monument?

Mr. T. Lynch

I think Deputy Moylan will agree with me in saying that Master McGrath's monument is now quite safe. It would have disappeared but for the accident of a car which went astray at midnight and the arrival of four famous cock-fighters at the monument to find it was lost in a forest. However, I am off the point but Deputy Moylan and a few others know what I am talking about.

Sign-posting is very important. I do not know whether this is a matter for the Commissioner of Public Works or the local authorities. I have in mind places such as New Ross. The battle of Ross was fought in the streets of New Ross but with the exception of the Three Bullet Gate there are no markers there. There is nothing to show where and how the battle was fought. It was on that account principally that I got up to speak. I consider that we should have some marker in the street from Three Bullet Gate to show that 16,000 patriots fell in the teeth of cannon fire. It was cannon fire which brought them down and not drink. That should be recorded for all to see.

Going through the country, I notice that there are various monuments erected in memory of men who gave their lives for the Republic in the War of Independence. That was a noble deed. We should have markers to show what happened. I have in mind national shrines such as they have in America. In Lexington, for example, they might have a rock on which would be inscribed—I cannot think at the moment of an American patriot but I am sure Deputy Moylan will not object to my using his name to illustrate what I mean—"Here stood Seán Moylan" or "Here fell so-and-so" or "Here stood the enemy". I think we should commemorate these actions in that manner and not—I hope the House will excuse me for using the expression— in a casual manner as is being done at the present time.

I should like to compliment the Commissioners of Public Works in regard to their work on the various monuments throughout the country. They did a magnificent job on Jerpoint Abbey in County Kilkenny and on Carrick Castle. In another ten years the roof of that castle would have fallen in. They have now preserved that. Before I conclude, I should like to impress on the Minister that the matter of sign-posting is very important.

Mr. MacCarthy

There are just a few points I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister. Very many ancient monuments, castles and abbeys are being allowed to go into ruin because the idea prevails that only one of a particular type should be taken over and preserved. These castles and abbeys are all equally important for their own localities. There is a castle in Monkstown which is in a good state of preservation. Very many of these have gone to ruin and are lost to their own areas because of the attitude to which I refer.

Another point is that you have advisory bodies connected with county councils and corporations. They make an effort to do something in their own counties each year. I do not know who allocates the funds to them but the £100 or £200 which is at their disposal each year for this purpose is really so small that nothing can be done without waiting four or five years by which time more and more damage is done by reason of the fact that attention was not given when it should be given.

Another point is that the craftsmen who can bring about the restoration of these monuments in their original shape or as near to it as possible are gradually diminishing. There is no time to be wasted if these monuments are to be taken over and preserved as they should be by craftsmen who know their work and who are skilled in it. No doubt, we have a number of these still and advantage should be taken of them.

Houses of national and cultural significance have been destroyed in recent years because they did not come under the category of ancient monuments. They are not ancient to their generation but they will be ancient for the generations to come. If what is left of them is preserved now—too many of them, unfortunately, have been demolished—the question always comes up: "Oh, it will be too expensive to maintain." We are losing the culture and contacts with the traditions of our race very often for the sake of the expenditure of a few hundred pounds per year. If education and the preservation of the physical side, so to speak, of our history is not worth that it seems amazing to me that we try to teach from books what we have in our countryside if proper attention is given to it.

Mr. Kennedy

Maidir leis an mBille seo, I am not going to compliment the commissioners on their work in preserving ancient monuments. They have pointed and done some work on certain monuments over a number of years. They have left them under the care of caretakers whose duties do not appear to be specified. The monuments become overgrown with weeds, shrubs, small trees and everything else. The money spent on them is a dead loss.

Take the case of Fore Abbey which is one of the most historical piles we have in the Midlands. The Board of Works spent some hundreds of pounds on it years ago. They did a good job on it. They pointed the old gates going into the City of Fore and they pointed the old abbey. They did some preservation on the cloisters, which they dug up and reconstructed, but they then let the place go into decay. In the last two years, however, the local branch of Muintir na Tíre had on their own initiative pulled up the weeds and bushes and cleared a way in out of their own funds. Without this action and without the sand and gravel which had been put down, I believe that Fore Abbey would be unapproachable. From the tourist point of view, there were often as many as seven C.I.E. buses in the village on the one day, and the tourists had to go and look for the caretaker to get the key. A book giving the historical background to the abbey had been produced some years ago and in order to obtain this very well-turned-out publication they had to go to the local public-house where possibly a copy would be procured for them. That was not a proper way to do things. The caretaker's duties should be well defined and there should be some place where the tourists could get a copy of the historical associations of the monument. The caretaker should be available at all times and the monument should not be under lock and key except at night.

The preservation of historical monuments requires the co-ordination of many Departments in the State. Up to this year practically every road leading to the village of Fore was nearly impassable. One road was repaired this year and about four others remain to be done. The cooperation of the Department of Local Government is necessary so that grants could be made available for these roads. Fógra Fáilte—whose fate we do not know—did show a keen interest in the past year in the matter of roads. It should be a matter for the Oireachtas and the Government to see that ruined walls and unsightly approaches to this monument and others are removed, and that where there is a green—as in the village of Fore—it should be planted with shrubs and trees. In other countries where they have monuments not half so valuable, this was done. I do not know if there are greater monuments historically or architecturally than ours in other countries, but I do know that if other countries had the monuments we have the road approaches to them would be good and there would be shrubs and suitable small trees planted along the highway. That should be our approach to the matter, too.

In my county, we have a number of these monuments, On one of the islands in the Shannon we have a very historic church, and while I cannot give the architectural details of it, I think it is preserved by the Board of Works. It is worth going to see, but if you do, you have to inquire where the island is, whether a boat is available, and who will row you across. You need to be well versed to know the island is there at all, and that there is such an historic church on it. As I said about Fore, if they had such an island anywhere else with such ruins they would do everything to attract tourists to it, and there would be printed literature available.

Fógra Fáilte and the Board of Works are, I think, considering the preservation of Delvin Castle and village, and the building there has become a positive danger to the houses around about, and if some action is not taken soon, it will fall and kill someone. We cannot have delay in these matters if we want to preserve these monuments and if we do not want them to do damage. I draw the attention of the Minister and those responsible for this Bill to that particular point.

Again, in my county we have—I think it is a combination—the remains of a castle and church at Kirpatrick. There you have a stone roof far and away bigger and better than the one that is preserved at Glendalough. I draw attention to the fact that in one corner it is beginning to fall in. I have drawn the attention of Fógra Fáilte to that fact. There is also an old Norman keep at Newtown which attracted many people, but again the approaches are impassable, and if this Bill is going to do anything it should remedy such situations. I saw in Wales and in many other countries of Europe the meticulous care and the amount of money spent on things of lesser value.

One of the Deputies—I think it was Deputy Lynch—on the other side referred to the monuments to patriots, and said that they should be preserved, and I endorse what he said. When we think of the magnificent work put into the '98 monuments by Irish artists 60 years ago and contrast it with the atrocities being put up now to the men of 1921, surely we should go down to Wicklow and honour our artists, the Hogans and the rest of them, who did splendid creative work in marble and stone in Wicklow and elsewhere and ensure that these monuments are preserved.

I would not agree with the Deputy that we should make any endeavour to preserve the atrocities costing hundreds of pounds which have been put up to the 1921 men. I believe it is intended to put up one proper monument and that is the one at the Custom House. But when we look at the things they are putting up now to men of our own generation I would not agree with the Deputy that we should preserve them. We should do everything possible to preserve the work done 60 years ago to honour the men of '98.

I do hope that as a result of this Bill the approaches to all our historical piles and buildings will be made passable, that proper roadsides and greens will be provided and that we will have a great speed-up in the Board of Works. Those responsible in the Board of Works for deciding whether something is worth preserving or not should take a broader view. There are places like Killafree in County West-meath with monuments which might not meet the eye or the taste of an expert but which are of grave significance to the local people who take a great pride in them. They can trace their history back 400 or 500 years and when local people through their local county councils draw attention to these things as being worth preserving, the experts in the Board of Works should have a broader and a more tolerant approach.

Mr. P.S. Doyle

I wish to avail of the introduction of this Bill to refer to a number of matters relating to national monuments generally which are declared to come under the national monuments section of the Office of Public Works. From time to time I have been receiving complaints from visitors and other people of the undesirability of permitting cattle to be grazed in close proximity to national monuments.

I will give a specific instance. I am informed of the case of a very important and exceedingly historic national monument, an abbey surrounded by a substantial wall, with an entrance gate. This abbey and the surrounding wall are situated in a large field in which cattle graze from time to time. While there is no criticism of cattle grazing there, it has been suggested that it is highly undesirable that the gate in the wall surrounding the abbey should be left open and cattle permitted to graze within the precincts of the monument, including part of the Abbey at present in ruins. The whole appearance detracts very much from the beauty and history of the abbey and visitors are anything but impressed by the filthy condition of the ground around it through which they have to walk when visiting the ruins.

I appreciate that there may be many difficulties in the way of providing a remedy. However, I think the Minister and his advisers might think the matter over and see if it is possible to do anything to cover the point I have raised. I think that it might be necessary for the Minister to take powers to authorise the various national monuments committees to expend some money to meet such cases and ensure that adequate protection is provided. I know of ruined castles which are used as byres for cattle.

Section 10 deals with burials in specified parts of national monuments, and I should like to draw attention to the fact that throughout the country there are quite a number of burial grounds in some way associated with an abbey of historical note or something of that kind. As an example of what I want to draw attention to, I quote Glendalough. Sometimes during the summer season, at least 20 bus-loads of visitors are brought from Dublin to Glendalough and they cannot be very much impressed when they enter through the cathedral gate there to find themselves, if it is a wet day, up to their knees in wet grass which, in some cases, is many feet high as I saw it only last year. If they take a walk down towards the other ruins there, they will find that the ground is all muddy.

I do not want to have it thought that I am criticising the Board of Works for that; the point I want to make is that I think the commissioners should try to make some effort where ruins of such historical note as Glendalough and the Seven Churches are concerned, to ensure that at least the burial grounds should be put in proper condition.

In regard to Section 8, which deals with publication of lists of national monuments, I suggest that the Minister should consider implementing this section and have a list or record of monuments in each county which are under the care of the Commissioners of Public Works circulated. There may be difficulties in that, but I think they would be of considerable interest to visitors who would know where these monuments are. As a result of visitors not having definite and correct information at present, some old story is told to them and the monuments are turned into something more amusing than anything else.

These remarks are not intended as a criticism of the Commissioners of the Board of Works. I realise the difficulties they have. They are matters that are apparently not under their jurisdiction about which I am complaining, and I am sure they will receive attention.

Mr. MacBride

I am glad of the remarks made by Deputy Doyle about the work done by the Commissioners of Public Works in regard to ancient monuments. The truth of the matter is probably that no Government Department is really either equipped or devised so as to be able to undertake work of this kind absolutely satisfactorily. There are quite a number of difficulties involved and what I would like to urge on the Minister, and through him, on the Commissioners of Public Works, is that they should encourage as much as possible local committees and local associations. There are quite a number of these in existence at the moment in different parts of the country. Naturally, they vary in character. In some places, there may be a very responsible and able committee and they could probably help much more than any caretakers or any officials from Dublin. My one appeal to the Minister would be to urge the commissioners to make the fullest possible use of local committees, county committees and county organisations, which have been set up in many areas to look after ancient monuments. The problem is by no means simple, and, of course, the commissioners will have to exercise fairly careful supervision over the work done.

Deputy Doyle mentioned a particular case—I do not quite know what monument it was—and complained that cattle were allowed to graze too close to it. I know that in many cases it is an advantage to have cattle close to monuments of this kind because they keep down the briars, nettles and various weeds which very often tend to undermine a monument, including ivy, and I have seen many cases of monuments close to which cattle have been in the habit of grazing which were in a better state of preservation than monuments which were completely railed off, because in the case of monuments which are completely railed off, the briars and nettles had taken over completely

In that connection, I was interested to hear Deputy Kennedy refer to an island on the Shannon, on Lough Ree. I take it he was referring to Inchleraun, which, with Clonmacnoise, is probably the most important monument we have of that period, the fifth or sixth century. There are on Inchleraun a number of fairly well preserved remains which are extremely interesting. Deputy Kennedy complained that it was very hard to get there and very hard for anybody to see the monument because there was no way of finding out where it was and they could get no boats to get there. I should like to add that even if they did get on Inchleraun, they would find it extremely hard to see the remains on account of the growth of briars, nettles and booha-launs. I do not know that it is part of the function of the caretaker to keep these down, probably not; probably his function is to see that nobody interferes with what is there but I feel that if you had a local committee, some kind of local development association or some responsible committee in the neighbourhood they could quite easily supervise any work that needs to be done in order to preserve these monuments and make them available.

It seems to me that there are three problems to be dealt with. First of all, there is the question of preserving what we have and there, as I pointed out, much has to be done by purely local initiative with the assistance and supervision of the Board of Works. The second task is that of using the monuments that we have as a form of attraction for tourists and visitors and also for promoting local interest, historical interest, in the monuments we have. That is essentially a publicity task. I would ask the commissioners, if they do issue a list of monuments or any publicity matter, to try to get away from the stereotyped kind of Government publication and to get these things done a little more attractively. There have been some most useful publications issued by the Government Publications Office with regard to some of our Irish monuments. They may be very satisfactory from the purely antiquarian or archaeological point of view but I feel that we should try to make them a little more up to date, a little more stream-lined, so that they can be used for visitors and tourists as well.

The third problem, which is a more complicated one, in a number of cases where old monuments or old buildings of historical importance are collapsing or are on the verge of collapse, is the extent to which the work of restoration should be undertaken. I know in many cases it should not be undertaken. Perhaps it would spoil the value of the original monuments. I think, however, in a number of cases the commissioners might well consider the actual restoration of certain monuments. There, again, it is a matter in which we should move very carefully and cautiously but it is a thing that should be considered.

I hope the Minister and the commissioners will make the fullest use possible of voluntary organisations in connection with this work. A problem that we have in connection with this type of work, not only in this Department but in many other Departments, is the question of the relationship between voluntary organisations and the Civil Service organisation. I do not think it has ever been approached in an entirely satisfactory manner. The Civil Service, I believe, seem to think very often that voluntary committees are more a hindrance than a help. Naturally the approach of civilians to problems of this kind is entirely different from the approach of the Civil Service. I think we should aim at trying to get some method of co-ordination between the local voluntary organisations and the Commissioners of Public Works on this question.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Cuirim-se fáilte mhór roimh an mBille seo mar ceapaim go spreagfaidh sé suim níos mó in ár sean-iarsmaí foirgnimh agus eaglaisí atá chomh flúirseach ar fud na tíre. Ba mhaith liom go mór spreagadh níos mó a chur san obair seo. Ba mhaith liom go mór-mhór, dá mbeimís i ndon an obair a bhí deánta trí na blianta anuas a fheabhsú. Ba mhaith liom níos mó suim a fheiceáil ag an bpobal i gcoitinne sna sean-fhoirgnimh seo. Dá mbeadh níos mó tuisceana ag na daoine tríd an tír san obair seo, d'fhéadfaí i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh faoi'n gceist seo. Caithfimíd suim na ndaoine a mhúscailt sa rud seo. Nuair a bheidh sé sin againn beidh leath na hoibre déanta againn. Is é tá ag cur imní orm ná an bhfuil airgead go leor le cur ar fáil le haghaidh na hoibre seo. Dá mbeadh an Aire Airgeadais sásta níos mó airgid a chur ar fáil, sílim go rachamíd ar aghaidh níos fearr leis an obair. Ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh níos mó dlúbhaint idir Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí agus Fógra Fáilte chun ár sean iarsmaí stairiúla a shábháil. Tá meascán mearaí anseo idir an obair atá ar siúl sa dá oifig. Thóg Fógra Fáilte suas an obair seo tar éis an Bille Cuairtíochta a chur i bhfeidhm ag an Dáil agus tá cuid mhaith oibre déanta acu ar fuaid na tíre. Go mór-mhór, chuir said suas fógraí á rá cén áit a raibh na seaniarsmaí seo. Táim-se lán tsásta leis an obair atá déanta acu, ach tá go leor le déanamh go fóill.

Chuir mé a lan suime san óráid a rinne an Teachta Ó Cinnéide agus é ag labhairt ar an mBille seo. Rinne sé tagairt speisialta do Chondae na hIar-Mhidhe, ach ba mhaith liomsa a rá go bhfuil iarsmaí den chineál chéanna i ngach condae agus ceantar sa tír agus tá cuid mhaith díobh nach bhfuil aon rud déanta fós chun iad a chaomhnadh agus a bhuan-choimeád. Cuimhním go ndearna mé féin iarracht cupla bliain ó shoin chun Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí a spreagadh chun rud éicint a dhéanamh faoi cupla sean-fhoirgneamh i gContae Luimnigh. Thuigeas nárbh fhéidir cur isteach orthu toisc gur roilig a bhí ionntú. Cheap mé go mbeimís i ndon feabhas beag a chur orthu ach bhí orm éirí as an iarracht. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil aon rud dhá dhéanamh fúthu anois.

Seán Ó Maoláin

Tá.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá mé sásta más mar sin atá sé ach ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh i bhfad níos mó suime ag an bpobal san obair. Tá leabhrán i gcló ag Coiste Comhairlitheach na Sean-Iarsmaí ag tabhairt míniú, eolas agus stair faoi na rudaí seo. Leabhrán an-luachmhar is ea é agus ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh liosta mór den tsaghas seo curtha amach agus go mbeadh gach uile iarsma agus foirgint sa tír ann in aon liosta amháin agus go ndéanfaí rud éicint chun aire do thabhairt do gach uile cheann acu i ndiaidh a chéile. Tá na céadta díobh scaipithe ar fud na tíre, agus tá sé an-riachtanach gur spreagfar na ndaoine chun iad do chosaint i gceart ón lot is ón mbás. Bhí a lán rudaí eile le rá agam ach do thóg na Teachtaí a tháinig romhaim ó mo bhéal iad. Ba mhaith liom a rá ar aon nós chomh sásta agus atáim leis an obair atá déanta sa cheist seo ag Fógra Fáilte. Ach tá a lán oibre eile le déanamh.

Dr. Esmonde

I welcome this Bill because I believe a nation largely depends for its individual identity on its historical and cultural background and on its monuments. Perhaps we have not, heretofore, given sufficient attention to such matters. Possibly there is a certain difficulty in the situation because so many different Departments are concerned. This Bill represents a new approach towards unifying the work and, under it, the Minister for Finance, through the Commissioners of Public Works, will be in a position in future to give attention to our monuments.

I agree with Deputy MacBride that societies, such as historical and antiquarian societies and so forth, which are functioning through private enterprise should be utilised in the development and maintenance of our monuments. I welcome the fact that under this measure the commissioners will be in a position in future to take over and attend to monuments with greater facility than they have been in the past. In my own constituency there has been a certain amount of delay in the taking over of monuments. I think this Bill will go a long way towards meeting that difficulty in the future.

There is another point to which I would like to draw attention. I do not see anything in this Bill—perhaps the Minister will consider this point— covering Irish monuments abroad. From time to time many famous Irishmen have had to leave our shores. They have served abroad with honour and distinction. The other day the case of a famous Wexford man, Myles Byrne, was brought to my notice. He is buried in Montmartre in Paris, and there is no distinguishing mark of any kind on his grave. It should be possible through the medium of this Bill, or some similar legislation, to ensure that our ambassadors are placed in a position to attend to such monuments. It is only right and fitting that famous Irishmen of bygone generations should have tribute paid to them by the present generation of Irishmen. These men were forced to leave the country. They served all over the world with honour and distinction and they are entitled to receive from the present generation the consideration that is their just reward. I ask the Minister to consider the position from that angle and to ensure that no monument anywhere in the world representing an Irishman is left untended.

As far as our own native monuments are concerned, I do not think they receive the attention they should receive. Every year there is an enormous influx of tourists, and it is only right that we should preserve our historic and cultural traditions by preserving our monuments and the approaches to them in the way in which they should be preserved. It should be made possible for our visitors to view these permanent characteristics of our civilisation, characteristics which speak such volumes for the best traditional, cultural and Christian standards of the Irish nation.

Mr. Cunningham

As an Teachta Ó Briain has said, the main difficulty in this matter is lack of money. There is a good deal of work to be done in relation to our ancient monuments. In order to do that work more money will have to be provided. First of all, we have to deal with the actual monuments. Secondly, the approaches to these must be improved. Damage suffered by these monuments because of the passage of time and other factors must be remedied.

As an Teachta Ó Briain said also, it will be necessary to compile a list, or lists, of these monuments. I would myself be in favour of a list for each county. That list should be available —possibly in the county council offices —so that people who are interested could find out where the monuments are and know something of their history before they actually visit them. Thirdly, it will be necessary to have a history compiled—I realise that this would not be a matter for the Commissioners of Public Works but rather for the Department of Education—in pamphlet form relating to each monument and that history should be made available to primary schools. Teachers of primary schools find it very difficult to get authoritative information on many important ancient monuments and such information should be compiled.

I often wonder why this work, which is of national importance, was given to the Commissioners of Public Works. It is work that could be taken under the wing of An Bord Fáilte. In Donegal there is the Grianan of Aileach, the seat of the ancient kings of Ireland, a prehistoric, circular fort. Recently, a very fine road was built going into that monument by An Bord Fáilte, by moneys provided by the board. It cost £2,000. Now the approach to that ancient monument is perfect whereas the monument itself remains neglected and dilapidated with stones thrown here and there.

If the care of ancient monuments were transferred to An Bord Fáilte or to the Department of Education it would be much better than the present position. As I understand it, under the 1952 Act, An Bord Fáilte have certain responsibility and have been empowered to spend money on ancient monuments. The attention, therefore, that is paid to these monuments is more or less divided. Co-ordination is needed. A body such as An Bord Fáilte that has spent over £2,000 on a roadway into one of our ancient monuments should have the further authority to spend money on the monument itself.

More and better signs should be erected pointing the way to these monuments. Tourists may pass very near important ancient monuments and be unaware of it. They may even be looking for them and cannot find them. Proper signs should be erected.

The most important thing is that whoever is charged with the responsibility of looking after the monuments should have more money to do the work that requires to be done. The longer this work is delayed the greater the amount to be expended must be. As each day passes greater damage is being done. More money should be made available to remedy that position.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Tá taobh amháin den cheist seo agus ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dí, sin í "iargcúltacht". Nuair abraim "iargcúlta" nílim ag tagairt do cheantar ar bith sa tír. D'fhéadfadh sean-fhoirgneamh a bheith iargcúlta agus a bheith suite i gContae Atha Cliath. Sé an bhrí atá ag an bhfocal "iargcúlta" agamsa gan aon bhealach isteach go dtí pé'r bith sean-rud atá i gceist. Cuirim i gcás a leithéid An Dún Aonghus istigh ar Oileáin Arann. Ní hé gurb é an ceann is seanda agus is ársa i nÉirinn é ach deireann na stairithe gurb é an ceann is seanda agus is ársa san Euroip féin é. Tá sé an-deacair ag cuairteoirí cúirt a thabhairt ar Dhún Aengus—sin i dturas lae—agus téann cuid mhaith de na daoine isteach go Arainn ar turas lae. Nuair bhíos béile ite acu agus aistear déanta siar cúig mhíle ar charr cliathánach, bíonn orthu ansan dul suas i n-aghaidh cnoic scéirdiúil go dtí an dún seo agus is deacair é mar caithfidh tú bheith ag strapadóireacht thar ailltreacha.

Bíonn airgead á chaitheamh 'chuile blian ar scéimeanna fostaíochta. Tá Oifig na Scéimeanna Fostaíochta Speisialta faoin stiúrú céanna agus atá Oifig na gCoimisinéirí Poiblí; tá siad faoi stiúrú an Aire Airgeadais agus dob fhéidir scéimeanna fostaíochta a leagadh amach do chuid mhaith de na háiteacha a mbeadh gá leis ionntu. Do bheadh dhá éan da marú ag aon chloch amháin—scéim fostaíochta a cháitheas a bheith ann agus obair fhónta á dhéanamh le freastal ar na sean-dúin.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil millteanas á dhéanamh ar na fothracha so ar son an mhillteanais féin. Tá fhios agam gur deineadh millteanas nuair bhí obair eile ar bun. Cuirim i gcás rud a tharla istigh in Ard Oileán ar chósta Chontae na Gaillimhe. Bhíodh na lads óga ar thóir na gcoiníní—ba é sin sul dá rabh "myxomatosis" orthu—ach ar aon chaoi leagadh cuid mhaith de na chlocháin a bhí ann. Tá mé ag ceapadh gur "beehive houses" an Béarla atá orthu. Bhí cuid mhaith acu ann. Ní dóigh liom anois go bhfuil fágtha ach aon cheann amháin. Rinneadh an millteanas san, ní de bharr an mhillteanais féin. Cuireann sé sin ag tagairt mé do rud a dúirt an Teachta Mac Giolla Bhride nár cheart aon ath-tógáil nó deisiú a dhéanamh ar na rudaí seo. Is é mo thuairm féin gur sin sompla gur mb'fhéidir gur ceart do Choimisinéirí na n-Oibreacha Poiblí machnamh a dhéanamh ar cheist so na h-ath-tógála. Tá na clocháin loitithe ag na lads óga. Tá mé ag ceapadh gur fearr iad do chur le chéile arís san áit a raibh siad. Is mó an chontúirt go ndéanfaí millteanas nuair bhionn áit iargcúlta i gceist. Dá mbeadh bóthar ag dul isteach ann agus daoine ag dul isteach ann gach lá laghdófaí an chontúirt go ndéanfaí millteanas. Dá gceapaidís go mbeadh daoine ag teacht ar rothair nó i gcar-ranna, nó fiú amháin ag siúl, bheadh daoine den tsórt sin san airdeall gan scrios no lot a dhéanamh. Bíonn strain-séirí ar Oileáin Arann ag caint air seo —agus sin é an fáth gur sheas mé suas ag caint air. D'fhéadfadh níos mó strainséirí teacht chun na sean-dúin sin a fheiceál da mbeadh casán suas ann. Ba mhaith liom go dtabharfaí aire don taobh sin den cheist.

Mr. Sweetman

As most Deputies appreciated and stated, the real trouble in respect of doing as much as one would like with regard to national monuments is one of money. There are many things in this sphere and in many other spheres that we would all like to do, but we come up pretty often and pretty soon against the difficult task of providing the funds to do what we would wish.

I think Deputy Moylan was right when he said in the beginning that there had been a certain amount of apprehension in 1930 that the preservation of our monuments would mean some interference with individual rights and that as the years had worn on it was found that that apprehension was entirely without foundation. There may be very odd individual cases where there are some slight hardships to the individual, but they are very few and far between and cannot be set off against the benefit that accrues from the preservation that was commenced in 1930.

I would like very much to underline what was said by Deputy MacBride as to the amount that can be done by local interests. There is, I am afraid, not merely in respect of our national monuments but in respect of almost every aspect of our life here, too much of the tendency to look to some other fellow to do something for us. There is far too great a tendency to look to the Government of the day or to look even to the county council of the particular area or to look to anybody other than ourselves. It would be much better if local people could be interested in keeping in good order the local national monuments that might be in their parish. In the first place, they would have a much greater pride in them as they belonged more especially to them. They would have a monetary interest also, as if they were well kept that would tend to bring tourists to the parish and to bring business to the area.

I hope that, whatever is done in the future, the tendency will be to bring the local people more into what is being done and to assist them in doing things, rather than that there should be a continuous approach from below to above, to get the people at the top to do something that those in the locality will not come together and do themselves. It is not merely in our monuments that that viewpoint has crept into our life: it is in everything, and it would be a very good thing indeed if the tendency were reversed.

I understand that there is in preparation a book, a brochure or a list of our monuments which will to some extent meet the need referred to by Deputy Doyle and others. There is also need to co-ordinate the work that is done in this respect by the Commissioners of Public Works, with the work done by Fógra Fáilte in regard to tourist literature. I am afraid there has been a tendency in past years for bodies charged with a particular type of work to go along the line of that work, without any effort to co-ordinate it with analogous work being done by other bodies. We find, for example, in other spheres work that was being done by the Tourist Board was at the same time being paralleled in other Departments of the State which were doing work that was practically identical. It would be very bad indeed if anything the Commissioners of Public Works might do under this Bill or under the parent Act, in producing a book or brochure about national monuments, should not be done in such a way as to tie in with our general literature, so that tourists would get what they require in one place in regard to our monuments rather than have to go to two or three places for it.

I do not accept the view that was put forward by Deputy Cunningham that the Commissioners of Public Works are a lower order of things than Bord Fáilte. The Deputy was a little bit unkind to the commissioners when he suggested that. Perhaps he did not mean the suggestion quite in that way.

Mr. Cunningham

There was no question of inferiority about it.

Mr. Sweetman

This is really an enabling Bill. It is a Bill to ease out some of the difficulties that have been found in practice over the years since the original Act was passed in 1930. I think it will ease out some of those difficulties, but it will only ease them out. In the last analysis, whether a national monument is preserved and whether its approaches are such as would be conducive to what we would wish, will ultimately depend on the interest local people show in that monument and in its preservation.

Some Deputies thought that not nearly enough had been done. People often take that line in regard to various aspects of our national life. I am inclined to take the other line, that considering we have only had our freedom and our own Government institutions for 25 years we have done a great deal. We ought to be proud of the progress we have made, while at the same time hoping to make greater progress in the future.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Mr. Sweetman

This day week. I understand some Deputy wants to put in an amendment.

Mr. Moylan

In Section 8, sub-section (3), line 45 on page 3, there is a case of urgent necessity. A tremendous amount of damage might be done by a man unconsciously. Perhaps the Minister could put in something like "under the direction of an officer of the commissioners," if that is possible.

Mr. Sweetman

I am afraid I do not get the Deputy's point.

Mr. Moylan

I have in mind line 45 of Section 8 (3) on page 3. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that a man is notified that the commissioners are taking over a building. He pleads it as a case of urgent necessity. I submit that he may do a great deal of damage by way of alteration or building during the period he is allowed. In my view, there should be some direction. It is quite clear in my mind.

Mr. Sweetman

I am afraid I do not appreciate the Deputy's point. The restriction in the section is that the work cannot be done for two months unless there is urgent necessity.

Mr. Moylan

"Urgent necessity." Why allow a man to excavate or demolish as a case of urgent necessity without having some direction over it?

Mr. Sweetman

I can see a case where, for example, there might be a national monument on a main road and where, as a result of traffic, it had started to topple. Are we to prohibit a man from rendering it safe?

Mr. Moylan

Arising out of Deputy Kennedy's statement, might I suggest to the Minister that we have a complementary Bill? There was a statute in England which was described as the finest image in Europe of a snowman when the first effects of a thaw had set in. This country is full of them.

Mr. Sweetman

I will not suggest that I should arbitrate between Deputy Kennedy, Deputy Moylan, myself or anybody else as to what is or is not artistic. Probably none of us would agree.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 10th November, 1954.