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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Mar 1955

Vol. 149 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account—Motion by the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Before the debate was adjourned, I was adverting in detail to the patent dishonesty and distortion that have been a feature of the rather grotesque performance by Deputy Aiken this afternoon. Among other things he tried to depreciate the development that has been effected by the E.S.B. in rural areas. Far from the situation being as suggested by Deputy Aiken, I am happy in the knowledge that in my own constituency areas like Inchigeela and Ballingeary, long denied development, are now scheduled for development within the year. I cannot see on what premises the Deputy bases his argument. He apparently is not able to appreciate the fact that that development has enabled substantially increased earnings to come back into the E.S.B. through the medium of the power supplied; and it is significant that as the amount of current being used increases not only is the revenue of the E.S.B. likewise increased but the board is in a position to make certain adjustments.

The picture painted by Deputy Aiken in relation to agriculture was a somewhat amazing one, to put it mildly, coming from the member of a Party which succeeded during its short period in office in causing more confusion and upset to the agricultural economy than can ever be wiped out. When I see crocodile tears being shed over the plight of the farmer to-day my memory instantly goes back to the economic war, to John Brown and all the other people who at one time had the entire farming community completely under their sway in the days when we saw the bailiff put in and all sorts of impositions on the farmer to bring him to heel. Let us face the fact that the agricultural community is getting a better deal to-day than it has had for many years.

Consider the over-all picture. The farmer is now relieved from unwelcome interference. He is relieved from the dire threat of compulsion, so lucidly and graphically described by Deputy Smith when he threatened to pull down their ditches and recruit not one but ten fields of inspectors. Fianna Fáil should realise that it is the confidence the agricultural community had in the expansionist ideas and development plans of the previous inter-Party Government and their continued confidence in this inter-Party Government to carry out those plans and implement that development that is the chief reason for Fianna Fáil's early return into opposition. The agricultural community has confidence that it will be looked after and that adequate provision will be made for the marketing of agricultural produce to the best possible advantage. It is no use Fianna Fáil crying crocodile tears over the Irish farmer because the Irish farmer knows what kind of treatment he got during the long years in which Fianna Fáil were in office, from 1932 to 1948.

Fianna Fáil should realise that this Book of Estimates is but an indication of a new development in the economic sphere. This Government has been taunted by the Opposition on the question of prices and reductions at the rate of millions per minute. I would not sing that song too loudly if I were a member of Fianna Fáil because Fianna Fáil is thereby focussing attention on the mess that they left behind and on the harm that was done to the whole economic structure. Consider the position when they came back into office in 1951: "Came back into office" may not be the correct description— they got into office someway. At that particular time they took control of an economic structure which envisaged an expansionist development by the use of the Counterpart Fund for syphoning in moneys, where moneys were necessary, to make good deficiencies in projects requiring immediate financing. It was estimated that over a period of years this reserve could be used to augment and support capital development. With its usual profligate regard for sound economic theory, that complete fund, which should have been held in reserve for a period of years, was dissipated within six months.

As I mentioned earlier, we also saw the consequences of the 1952 Budget with its disastrous borrowing policy at the interest rate which the last Government had chosen. We had that picture. We had confidence within the State shaken by the inept attitude of the Government, with the complete lack of capacity which they were revealing from day to day. We saw a panic and expansionist type of activity and the efforts made by them to bolster up in an unrelated way, various schemes. We saw them flummoxed in an effort to try and deal with an alarming rise in unemployment. Now, that is not a very pleasant economic heritage, or a very pleasant premises for the Opposition to argue from, but these are unassailable facts.

This Government has to face the problem of getting the expenditure side of the nation's business thoroughly examined. We have seen that it has been enabled to stop the upward trend and to show some reasonable trend towards a reduction. But the real purpose of this Government, and what the Minister for Finance has to face in his responsibility to this House, is that we expect more and more of these reductions in expenditure. We expect to see the implementation, month by month and year by year, of a coordinated plan that is going to see more and more people put into gainful employment. We want to see a proper impetus put into land drainage and land reclamation, and into the development of all schemes that are going to prove, on the capital side of the Budget, to be valuable national assets.

It is easy for people to talk of reducing the price of this and the price of that. I myself have often conceded that, in relation to prices, the Government's sphere of influence may not be very considerable, but there is one thing which this Government can and must do, and there is one thing which Fianna Fáil will have to sit for years in opposition watching it do, and that is to bring about an improvement, year after year, in the national income of this State. Fianna Fáil will have to sit there year after year, watching this Government improve the earning capacity of the people, because once you can give the people the capacity to earn more and maintain prices at their present level, the increase in the people's pay-packet will help to offset the economic stringency which has arisen purely as a consequence of direct Government action which started with the black Budget of 1952.

This Government must be alive to the fact that the people do not expect miracles overnight, but they do expect as I said previously, a concerted coordinated plan that will ensure the advantageous use of the moneys allotted for capital development. I want to see, and have always advocated courage and vision in relation to capital expenditure. I do not ever want to see the Government facing, with temerity, the problem of doing a worth while job, just because it is too big to tackle. I think the Opposition can fairly take this Vote on Account as an indication of the fact that the Government's activity is going to be directed towards curbing dead weight administrative costs and of working up in a coordinated way, an expansionist policy for this nation.

We have seen many improvements over the years. We have seen in the recent past uncertainty and instability in Government. That era is gone. We now have an effective and strong Government in the State. The Government have the opportunity of sitting down and, in a deliberate fashion, of planning a policy of development over a period of years. We, on this side of the House, say to the Government, that, while we welcome the practicality of its approach to the administrative costs and supply end of the Book of Estimates, we look forward to ever increasing activity on the investment side of our development. It would not be any great source of contentment to us if we could curb rising administrative costs if, at the same time, we could not show to the Nation an effective co-ordinated expansionist plan that would bring hope to the people who are flying from this country or who are seeking, for other reasons, employment outside its shores. We accept the earnest that we have got in the spirit in which is was given, but at the same time we look forward to an era of planned, step by step development in this Nation which will give us the forests we require, the drainage of our rivers that we require and the settlement of the many problems that have aggravated our people over the years.

As regards forestry, I want to see the Forestry Department getting down to the job of spending the money it is given in the year in which it is voted rather than see the Forestry Vote coming in here with large Appropriations-in-Aid, these being shown as unspent moneys in the following year. We have all complained, not of cuts in the Estimate for Forestry, but of interminable delays in getting on with afforestation. I take the classic case that I have raised on more than one occasion with the present Minister for Lands, even when he was in the previous inter-Party Government, the question of the Leigh-White estate in Glengarriff. That is typical of forestry ailments. The voting of an extra £100,000 in these Estimates makes no difference if the Land Commission or whoever deals specifically with land acquisition does not get after the acquisition and the development of land. I do not want reserve pools of land built up for afforestation. I want to see land being acquired, not notionally, but in fact and nurseries being planted, not being put into Books of Estimates in an ephemeral way.

We face the future with confidence in our support of the Government because we know what it is to have a rising surge of confidence. Not only in the people in general but in every particular indicator, whether it be commercial or business, we can see the effect of stability and strength in the Government. There is a will among the people and all sections of the people to get down to the task of geting a job of work done. You will not get that job of work done on the basis of schoolboy pranks, spurious arguments based on misconception. You will get it done only by the Opposition realising that for a long period of years the only part it can effectively play in Irish affairs is to be a useful constructive Opposition and to help us to get on with the job. It is a job that will take a lot of doing.

I hope, as the years go by, we will not be coming in here to argue on decreases in the administrative costs of running the State. I hope we will be coming in, as year follows year, to give more and more encouragement to a Minister to go out on the expansionist side in the capital investment of Irish money in the land of Ireland, in the homes of Ireland and in the over-all project of putting more and more Irish people into effective and gainful employment in their own land.

Let Fianna Fáil realise that they made a most disastrous and most retrograde contribution to our economy from 1951 until they were put out of office last year. It is not easy to measure how deep that serious blow has gone, any more than it is possible for us even yet to gauge the calamity that this nation suffered from the stupidity of their economic war. Let them leave their mistakes behind them and be patient and watchful and they may be able to learn, in the course of the next four years, that sane reasoning, effective planning and co-ordinated effort can even undo much of the harm that they have done and may enable this nation to march forward on the road of progress that will give us all the things we require, that will make our economy sound, that will give us increased agricultural production, improved fertility of our soil, the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, improved and better-developed marketing facilities for all our live stock, increased industrial potential and, above all, step by step, the Ireland that it was the ambition of those who paid the supreme penalty that we might have the right to have.

Apart from the Minister, only two members of the Government Parties have so far spoken and listening to them one could only attribute a very low standard of political intelligence to the Irish people. Deputy Barry referred to the years in which the people suffered maladministration and ill-government under Fianna Fáil. Deputy Collins referred to the oppression that the farming community in particular had to suffer as a result of Fianna Fáil government. It is well to remember that up to the year 1948 the Fianna Fáil Government was the second longest Administration in Europe at the time and, if the people were so misgoverned and so oppressed, having regard to the system of election that we have in this country, it reflects very badly on the standard of ordinary intelligence, let alone political intelligence, that the Irish people have.

Deputy Collins or any Fine Gael Deputy who has any ideals that pretend to be national, should not refer so glibly to what happened during the economic war. I first came to political intelligence during that period and certainly, as an Irishman, I would not have liked to be on the side that opposed the Irish Government in trying to restore national dignity to the Irish farming community. It is a significant fact that it was amongst that community that the Government got the bulk of its support that maintained it in office to continue the fight against Britain in that economic war. I think it ill-becomes any Deputy, no matter on what side of the House he stands, to boast of any part taken by any Party or individual or group of individuals against our properly constituted and elected Government of that day.

The Minister may well feel pleased at the fact that he was able to introduce this Book of Estimates and point to an over-all reduction of £2.77 millions in the house-keeping bill, as he sees it, at the present time but, when that reduction is broken up and examined home, the amount of pride that the Minister has taken in his performance and that of his Government will possibly be somewhat watered down.

In the first instance, we were led to believe during the first Coalition Government period that they and only they had a full realisation of the value of capital investment. It is a rather significant fact that now, in their second term of office and at the first opportunity they get, they cut the capital outlay of the State by almost £1,750,000. I think there are many items that the Minister and the several Ministers responsible for the expenditure of these capital items will be called upon to explain in more detail than the Minister has done here this afternoon.

The Public Works and Buildings sub-head shows a decrease of £410,000 which is the sum that was provided in last year's Estimate for the purchase of Arus Brugha and the Paris Embassy. Nevertheless, there must be reflected in that some diminution of capital outlay on other necessary public works and public buildings. When one takes that item into consideration with the one that immediately follows—new works, that is, new buildings and reconstructed works which shows a decrease of £219,000—one's opinion is reinforced that there is some intention to diminish to some degree the capital outlay on the erection of necessary public buildings. As far as my own knowledge of the situation is concerned, I can only point to a possible slowing down on works on school buildings. Certainly, from the results that the Minister for Education has shown since he assumed office, and judging by the replies he has been giving over a period of five or six months to questions on the progress of particular projects for the building of schools, and for the reconstruction of old schools, one can only assume that the push has now gone out of the effort to provide the nation adequately with school buildings.

In my constituency there are several places where these schools are necessary because of new housing development. I need only mention Ballyphehane, Mayfield, Wilton and Bishops-town areas. The answer given by the Minister, not three weeks ago in the House, was anything but encouraging from the point of view of the accommodation of school-going children in these new areas. Several schools in my constituency urgently require reconstruction, and I am sure that, having listened to some of the replies given by the Minister, the same applies to many other areas throughout the country. I would like to be reassured by the Minister for Finance or by the Minister for Education if he proposes to intervene in this debate or at least in the course of the presentation of his Estimate, that that which is the most fundamental of all capital services, will not suffer by the reduction to which I have referred.

I do not quite understand to what reduction the Deputy is referring.

There is a reduction on new works.

Is the Deputy referring to the figure of £14,000? It seems hardly worth while making that reference.

I am referring to the figure of £219,000 under sub-head B, and I take that in conjunction with the reduction of £410,000, under sub-head A.

£219,000?

It is the second item on the Summary of Capital Services.

Is it £270,000 the Deputy means?

I am reading from the Summary of Capital Services.

The Deputy is taking the summary in the front of the book. If the Deputy looks at page 45 he will find that the figure is broken down there.

I am only looking for a reassurance.

I thought the Deputy was approaching it honestly and straightforwardly. If the Deputy looks at page 45, he will see that the difference in Education is only £14,000 out of £1.4 million.

The reduction is not on schools at any rate.

But on the other hand, there is a feeling, as I have said, that the push has gone out of the effort towards adequate provision of schools and their reconstruction. On the second page of the summary there are two other significant figures. The grants to local authorities towards the cost of housing schemes show a reduction of £120,000, and grants to local authorities for the provision of sanitary services works show a reduction of £23,500. These two figures, taken together, suggest to me that there is some falling off in the effort towards rehousing.

I have always accepted that the housing of our people is a matter above Party. I will not accuse the Government of trying to diminish it in any way, but if for any reason their administrative policy turns in that direction, I hope it will be corrected. The reduction of £120,000 may well be attributable to the fact, as we have been claiming for the past three or four years, that the housing targets of many local authorities have now been reached, or have almost been reached. There is a further fact. The big city areas on which housing development was possible have now been eaten up, and housing authorities are required to go further afield to get suitable land for site development.

Naturally, that must tend to increase the provision for sanitary services to these authorities. This reduction in the capital summary of £23,000 on grants to local authorities for the provision of sanitary services works is at least an indication that there is some diminution of the work envisaged in that field in the coming year.

Deputy Collins mentioned that the reason for the reduction in the hospital capital outlay Estimate in the current year was that so many hospitals had now been almost completed, and that some were, in fact, completed, and were waiting for formal opening. But the Minister, even though he intervened when I challenged Deputy Collins, said in his opening statement —and I think I took it down corectly— that that meant that expenditure would be £1.5 million less than anticipated, having said, of course, that the expenditure for last year was £1.6 million less than expected.

But next year I am estimating for £250,000 more than was spent this year.

Therefore, that again indicates to me that something is amiss in that particular programme. Either we have not got the necessary materials, the necessary skilled workmen, or at least the will to get on with the job. I believe there is plenty of material, plenty of skilled workmen, and goodness knows plenty of non-skilled workmen available for any worth-while capital development. Therefore, one can only assume that the traditional opposition by the Minister's Party to hospitalisation is having some effect on the hospitalisation programme in the coming year.

Does the Deputy really think that is true?

On performance, I cannot but believe it is true.

Then, I will withdraw what I said a minute ago, that the Deputy was approaching the matter honestly and straightforwardly.

I think I have always adopted an honest approach.

The Deputy could not be doing that when he makes such a statement about hospitalisation.

As far as I am aware the reason given by the Minister for Health for his failure to implement the 1953 Health Act was that there was not sufficient hospitalisation available. One would imagine, therefore, that any Minister who was interested in getting on with the job of curing the defects he found in the machinery there when he took up the job would have bent all his efforts towards repairing these defects, the most obvious defect, as he pointed out, being lack of hospital facilities. Nevertheless, in the original programme, there was a proposal to spend £1.5 million more on hospitalisation in the coming year than is actually being spent. If that is not a statement of fact, I do not know what is, and, so far as I am concerned, it is an honest approach to the problem as I see it.

The Minister's action last week in meeting the members of the Banks Standing Committee was commendable and the result was certainly satisfactory. I do not think the Minister would claim all the credit for that, because some of it naturally must be due to the approach by the bank people to the problem as presented by him. When the British Chancellor of the Exchequer announced his proposals for the increase of the bank rate in England and for his restriction of the hire purchase facilities obtaining there, he said that the reason for his doing so was that there were inflationary trends in the country. These were largely brought about by the desire of the people to buy goods that were easily available and in many cases imported.

Towards the end of the last inter-Party Government's period of office, there was a similar trend in this country. Money that was earmarked for capital development was being spent in the purchase of imported consumer goods. The Fianna Fáil Minister for Industry and Commerce, on assuming office in 1951, had to take very positive and swift action to arrest that trend. I need only mention the quantitative restriction which he imposed on certain fabrics and wearable goods that were being freely imported up to then. If that trend had been allowed to continue, inflation must have resulted here and the Banks Standing Committee which met the Minister would not have been so easily able to agree to the Minister's proposals not to follow the lead given by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer and the British banks.

Fortunately, in this country, the hire purchase system has not got a grip to the same extent as it has in England. However, I am not entirely against hire purchase because it gives the people an opportunity of enjoying now goods which might be described in many respects as luxury goods but which in most respects are essential goods, which they might not otherwise be in a position to buy, but it is a matter the Minister will have to keep his eye on, to make sure that hire purchase does not bog down the average wage earner, the average person relying on a fixed income. Naturally, with the increase in the standard of living in this country, many people, being human, will try to be at least as good as, if not to emulate, their neighbours in the possession of what are now considered the necessaries of life.

People can buy suites of furniture, wireless sets, carpets and all kinds of electrical labour-saving devices on the hire purchase system and in many cases a particular item might add only an extra half crown or five shillings per week to the deficit side of any family budget; but the taking of a lot of these things together in many cases has ended up in people being sued by these companies and having no answer whatever to their claims not only for the return of the goods but for the payment of any repayments due on the particular goods. The position in England seems to have got to such an advanced stage that the Chancellor had to step in. I hope that such a situation will never arise here, but, on the other hand, I am not advocating that any clamp down should be made on that type of industrial enterprise, if one might call it that.

On the social welfare side, if, as the Minister said, the decrease in unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit is due to the fact that there has been an increase in employment, it is, too, very gratifying, and one can only hope that this decrease has not been contributed to too much by the scourge of emigration. Unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that it has, to some extent, but the Minister will soon be speaking, and, if we are to take heed of what Deputy Collins has said, he will be able to give us some reassurances in regard to his statements as to the possibility of increasing old age and blind pensions in the near future, but it is nevertheless significant that, in these Estimates, under the old age pensions sub-head, we see a small decrease of £10,000 for the coming year. The total figure runs at the moment about £9,500,000, and a 10 per cent. increase in old age pensions would mean an extra £1,000,000 per annum, or something in that neighbourhood, but if it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation whereby old age and blind pensions will be increased, there will be a very big Supplementary Estimate necessary and I should like to hear at this stage whether or not we can believe that there is going to be an increase in these particular items and, if so, why some indication of it is not given in the Estimates.

Again I want to refer to part of the Minister's opening statement in which he blamed the 1952-53 increase in the cost of living on deliberate Government policy. The deliberate Government policy of that time was such that any Government who disagree with it can be just as deliberate in reversing that policy and restoring the status quo. The efforts so far made by this Government certainly have not gone very far towards that end. The only earnest we have seen of the oft-repeated protestations about their intentions to restore the 1951 price levels is the reduction of 5d. in the price of butter.

If deliberate Government policy increased the cost of living to such an extent and so damaged the national economy, surely this Government is long enough in office now to arrest, by their own deliberate policy, that particular trend. If it was so damaging to the national economy, one would expect that some further effort would be made and that at least an attempt to restore these prices would be apparent from these Estimates. The remedy is simple. It is a question of subsidising, or not.

In recent months the leading members of the Government have stated that, generally speaking, the Government themselves cannot control the cost of living as it is largely influenced by world economic events. To the extent that there was deliberate Government policy in the 1952 Budget, which so increased the cost of living as to damage the national economy, this Government have the necessary power and can avail of the remedy to revert to the position that obtained when they last left office. I wonder whether or not we will see a restoration of subsidies in the coming year. As far as I can see from the Estimates, no effort is being made in that direction. Therefore, so far as this Government are concerned, the effects of the deliberate policy of the Fianna Fáil Government are being allowed to continue.

I should like to comment on Deputy A. Barry's statement about the profligate spending of Marshall Aid by the Fianna Fáil Government. Even though Deputy A. Barry was not a member of this House at the time, I would remind him that while the present Minister for Agriculture was in opposition between the years 1951-54 he boasted on three separate occasions of being able to spend £5,000,000, £6,000,000 and £7,000,000—he mentioned a different figure on each occasion—of Marshall Aid moneys in one afternoon while he was in America. The spending of these moneys would have been justified were it not for the fact that they were spent on consumer goods that could well have been produced in this country. If that is not profligate spending, nothing is, and certainly no member on the Government Benches should be too ready to criticise Fianna Fáil's expenditure of Marshall Aid in the light of what Deputy Dillon then said.

In the past few years the Exchequer has apparently been able to claim a credit on the Road Fund. I think I read recently that the credit for the year just finished was something in the neighbourhood of £215,000; if I am wrong the Minister will correct me. I think, too, that for the year before, or some couple of years previously, there was a similar credit as a result of expenditure from that fund. I should like to mention one particular aspect of that Road Fund or of its distribution in so far as it affects my constituency. For many years past, Cork City has failed to get any advance out of that particular fund—largely, I suppose, because we have not sufficient of what are known as "main roads" within the constituency. An odd time we have got about £10,000; many years we got nothing. Certainly, however, there is one approach into Cork City that needs a fairly heavy outlay at the present time to put it into proper condition: I refer to the Tivoli Road, which leads to Dublin and to Waterford. This road is fast getting into a very bad condition——

I feel that this would perhaps be more relevant on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government.

May I set the Deputy's mind at ease by telling him that he is correct when he says that, under his Government, no such allocation has been made but, for the coming year, the Minister for Local Government has already announced an allocation.

I am very pleased to hear it. I do not remember reading the announcement.

If the Deputy had been here last week he would have heard it.

Unfortunately I was unable to be present last week. However, I knew that it was one of the matters that the Deputy members of the Cork Corporation intended to raise with the Minister. I am glad to learn that the Minister has acceded to their request and I shall now pass from that subject.

Deputy Aiken referred to the reduction in the grant to Mianraí Teoranta. Again, reverting to what was stated before this Government took up office, may I point out that the Minister for Justice made a specific statement when speaking in his own constituency, to the effect that more money would be available for mineral exploration as soon as the inter-Party Government was restored to office?

I have page 271 of the Book of Estimates open before me and, under Minerals Development, I note that there is a reduction of almost 100 per cent. in payments to Mianraí Teoranta for prospecting. Lest I should be accused of exaggerating, may I say that it is not quite a reduction of 100 per cent. Last year's figure was £74,000, while this year's figure is £40,000. I know it is very difficult to continue to make grants available for prospecting for minerals with a view to mineral development in this country but the fact is that mineral prospecting is a very expensive form of activity. Sometimes we reach a stage when so much has been spent on a particular prospecting project that it is then too late to turn back and we have to go forward. I assume that whatever prospecting is being done by Mianraí Teoranta at the present time has already cost the State a considerable sum of money.

I presume that those who are in charge of Mianraí Teoranta, aided and advised by their technicians, would not be seeking money unless they were reasonably sure it would be an economic proposition. Therefore, I believe that any easing-up on prospecting at this stage—having regard to the fact that mineral development would be of such outstanding value to us—would be a mistake. From the point of view of the Minister for Justice, it would be a huge political mistake.

In conclusion, I want to refer to one of the points—I forget how many they had—this Government published when they assumed office, and that is the establishment of a separate Ministry for the Gaeltacht. These Estimates certainly do not envisage any such establishment. As far as I can see, very little has been done to advance the economic interests of the Gaeltacht. I know that the matter is fraught with difficulties but one would at least expect, after almost eight months of office, some earnest from the Government in regard to that particular promise. If some increased Government activity were envisaged in the Gaeltacht in the coming financial year, one would have expected that it would have been portrayed in some manner in these Estimates, but it is not.

The Minister can claim with some justification that he has effected a decrease, but when one examines it home and realises that the decrease on the capital side of £1.63 millions is largely made up by a decrease in the capital outlay under health of £1,250,000, and that of the £1.1 millions decrease on the Supply Services we have £700,000 odd attributable to the Government's policy on wheat—we can only say that the decreases are more notional than real. The Minister told us that it was not with a great deal of confidence or complacency he was facing his Budget. Certainly, having regard to what we were told to expect before they assumed office, having regard to the charges made against the Fianna Fáil Government "which overtaxed the people and which overestimated to the tune of £10,000,000", one cannot understand why the Minister should feel so worried that he will not be able to produce what Deputy Flanagan described as the Budget the people have been waiting for for seven years.

You used up all the money first.

I believe that a very great measure of congratulation is due to the Minister and to the Cabinet for the Estimates now before us. In the Opposition speeches, there lies more proof that this is so than in anything that has been said by us. The first speaker, the ex-Taoiseach, Deputy de Valera, stressed in his own way the repeated tendency of the figure to grow year by year. It does not require any figures of mine to give the impression that is created in the minds of the people that every year these Estimates increase. They do—and they have done so right from the formation of the State. What the Minister has done must be considered in this light, because not only has he arrested this trend but he has reduced the figure by £2.7 millions. Deputy de Valera also told us that if we were to continue like this the Government must learn to say "No" to new proposals. Certainly the Government must learn to say "No" to new proposals. The Government has said "No" to many new proposals. To instance just a few of the old reliables of which we like to remind the Opposition we can trot out the Bray Road and Dublin Castle.

We heard of building here to-night. Last week we heard even of Dublin Castle from Deputy Briscoe. We heard to-night from Deputy Lynch and Deputy Aiken. Which is it better to turn down a proposal like this and turn to something which is productive —such as the increases in the Estimates now available show—or to continue on the profligate spending as described by my colleague, Deputy Barry? My colleague from Louth, Deputy Aiken, confined most of his remarks to wheat. He said a very great saving had been made by the Government in the new price of wheat. He did not mention the situation which faced the Government and the Minister for Finance as well as the Minister for Agriculture. It is, therefore, wise for us to consider the whole trend of what has happened since the reduction was announced in the price of wheat. The reduction was announced because, as the Minister for Agriculture told us, many non-farming speculators were gaining money from the land of Ireland and not restoring the fertility that must lie therein if we are to be prosperous.

The figures show that in three years the increase was from 252,000 acres to 334,000 acres and, finally, last year to 491,000 acres. Deputy Aiken never reminded us of this. It would be a very good thing to grow plenty of wheat if we had the use for it, but Deputy Aiken did not remind us that all we have the use for—as decided not by our Government but by the Fianna Fáil Government and written in black and white on the memorandum of the 17th January, 1954—is 450,000 acres as a maximum. The figure was 491,000. God did not provide us with a surplus of wheat grown on 41,000 acres. If God had sent that, the Government would have lost £250,000 or, alternatively, would have had to ask the people of the towns to provide a subsidy of £250,000 or, alternatively, would have had to ask the pig feeders, poultry producers and the cattle feeders to pay £250,000 more for the produce of that 41,000 acres.

If the Government had allowed the trend to continue and if there had been an extra 100,000 acres next year or an extra 150,000 acres the year after, one of those three groups of people—those who give us our general funds from taxation, the people of the towns in the non-wheat producing counties or, alternatively, the people who are feeding pigs, poultry and cattle for export and who are giving us such a wonderful return in these last years—would have had to produce £5,000,000, £6,000,000, £7,000,000 or maybe £10,000,000 to make up the deficit.

It is very important to register here to-night and place on the records of the House the fact that, a fortnight later, when Fianna Fáil brought their wheat motion to the Seanad, they sent their principal speaker there, Senator Paddy Cogan, and his line was not that we should pay £4 a barrel for all the wheat there was—because he knew it could not be done when he heard the memorandum of the Fianna Fáil Cabinet of the 17th January, 1954—but that we should introduce the contract system. Therefore, Deputy Aiken's approach to wheat is that there should be a reduction, of the contract system, or a group of people had to suffer. His line was "Now that I have not the responsibilities of Government it is my purpose to cash-in on it politically." That has been his attitude in County Louth, even up to three days ago.

Reference has been made to hospital services. Deputy Lynch said that the reduction is evidence of the Government's hostility to the health programme. If he had been making representations to the Department of Health he would know that the Hospitals' Trust Funds have been allocated up to 1960. If the building programme is behind, because of bad weather and various other things, and if we have not to provide for parts of it in this year's Estimate, and if there is a reduction as a result, can he blame the Government for it?

He also spoke of social welfare. As I see the Minister for Social Welfare here to intervene in the debate, I do not think I should say much about it. Deputy Lynch put the question, no doubt for the Opposition Press tomorrow, as to whether the decrease in unemployment was paralleled by an increase in emigration. I would like to inform Deputy Lynch that but for the deliberate action of the Fianna Fáil Government we would know. It is not necessary now for a person emigrating to report to the local Garda station. There was one law whereby they must report. It was deliberate action on the part of the Fianna Fáil Government that saw to it we did not know so that they could hide the rising emigration which was a feature of the Government from 1951 to 1954.

Reference was also made by Deputy Lynch to Deputy Dillon, the present Minister for Agriculture, spending six, seven or eight million pounds in one afternoon. He bought on that occasion fertilisers in New York with funds from the American Marshall Aid. He brought them to this country and, as a direct result, the price of fertilisers dropped by as much as 25 or 30 per cent. The reason was that the only other source we have is the British source and this source is completely controlled by Imperial Chemical Industries. At that time the present Minister for Agriculture had it in his power to go to another source and put these people into competition. He did so and Deputy Lynch should not now demean him for so doing because as a result of the action of the present Minister for Agriculture the price of fertilisers at that time was reduced by 30 per cent.

Did he not do a very essential work? It must be put on record that he was prepared to bring in the fertilisers at £9 per ton at the port of entry and make them available to every farmer but Fianna Fáil were not so prepared to do. They later sold them at £17 per ton. Deputy Lynch should not refer to the purchases of the present Minister for Agriculture during his previous term of office.

There are increases in this Book of Estimates. We should examine those increases. Everyone knows that agriculture is the basic industry of this country. Everybody also knows for a fact—what the Minister for Agriculture has repeated again and again—namely that, when agriculture falls, the first man that falls is the townsman, the professional man or somebody who has no direct relation with agriculture. Increases in the Estimates for agriculture are, therefore, very important. It is interesting to note that there is an increase of £218,000 in the Estimate for farm building schemes. The land project scheme shows an increase of £208,000 and, when the American Grant Counterpart Fund is taken into consideration, £933,000 will be used of which some £600,000 will be used to produce ground limestone and £100,000 for the milk pasteurisation scheme. That is the type of thing that our Government look to in order to provide a higher standard of living for our people. We do not look to the Bray Road, Dublin Castle, the building of 700 Garda houses at £3,000 each or any other grandiose scheme. We look to the fields, the farmers and the workers in order to give everyone a higher standard of living.

Decreases there are. I explained the decrease in regard to health. The decrease in regard to defence is large but it is interesting and very gratifying to note that in the Estimates the decrease in wages and salaries to be paid is as low as 8 per cent. of the total. I would recommend the Minister for Defence to consider, perhaps next year or the year after, increasing the individual payments to the members of the Forces because if we are to have a small force, in the light of nuclear warfare, that force, I think, should be well paid. People should be induced to join but the only way you will attract people is by making the life something into which firstclass men will go.

Some of the results of the efforts of the present Minister for Finance in the last eight months are very gratifying. We all know of his wonderful national loan. I do not believe that any other person in this country could have had such a success in such a short time. There is nobody so hard to convince as bankers. The Minister for Finance was successful in convincing the banks not to increase the rate of interest because there is no inflationary trend in Ireland to-day. That was something which no Minister for Finance ever succeeded in doing before. It meant a complete break and has created a precedent. Its importance cannot, and must not, be overlooked.

Let me return to social services for a moment. I am disappointed that the Book of Estimates does not show some increase in the sum allotted for old age pensioners and grants towards the supply of fuel for necessitous families and many other things. The poor are always with us. But after all, it is a proud thing to have reduced unemployment by 7,060 in eight months, or more than 1,000 a month. It is a fact that there are many poor people and many necessitous persons with us and the cost of living is nothing which gives us any right to complacency at the moment. I would have liked to have seen an increase in the sums allotted for old age pensions and for the supply of fuel to necessitous people, etc. I hope that later in the year we will hear of that. I will conclude on that note.

I am really not surprised at the figure of the Vote on Account as an approximate estimate of the amount that will be required for payment during the first four months of the next financial year on the basis of a Budget estimated to require these sums of money for payment. When the Minister for Finance spoke to-day, at one stage I really came to the conclusion that we were going to have a postponement of the local elections and, possibly, that we might have an election Budget and a general election.

The Minister for Finance knows that statements have been made and definite commitments entered into as a result of those statements and that at a later stage—how late I do not know; but within this financial year, 1955-56— there will be sums provided to give additional moneys to the old age pensioners, the widows and orphans and necessitous people. It was definitely stated by the Minister for Social Welfare that the Cabinet had agreed. Why it is not included as an increase in the Book of Estimates is beyond me. There is no doubt about it that these figures can be just as accurately estimated as the figures for the provision under the present rates. Obviously this Book of Estimates is not a true Book of Estimates for the coming year because if there is any definite commitment and any truth in the promise to the old age pensioners, widows and orphans and necessitous people of an increase in payment to them, then there would have to be a substantial Supplementary Estimate brought in.

I do not think the Minister for Finance can quarrel with that appreciation. Now, how many millions that will mean I will leave to Deputy Barry to estimate, if he likes, seeing that he was so kind as to honour me with mention when he made his short speech to-day with which I will deal later. But it is on a par with the letters Deputy Barry wrote to the Press during the election campaign when he said the price of tea should be 2/8 per lb. and were it not for Deputy Lemass it would be 2/8 per lb. and that he was going to see that it would be sold at 2/8 per lb.

You are on a very bad spot on tea. Keep off that subject; it is a bad one for you.

Deputy Barry should keep off it. The pot is boiling for him because I am sure some of his constituents are very disappointed.

They are very pleased.

A great number of members that make up the Government Benches owe their seats there to promises made, promises which have not yet been honoured. One of them was to bring down the price of tea. Coming to the tea point, the Minister knows in spite of what he said to-day that it is unlikely that tea will ever come down again to be sold at the prices at which we knew it to be sold before the war or during the emergency period, and that this piling up of a deficit arising from the tea not being sold at its commercial price, will have to be met by the State at some time. Are we to take it that it will not be met in this financial year? This tea for which this debt will pile up will be consumed and out of existence, and we will have an additional million or so for a second Supplementary Estimate within the year, again bringing up the total of these Estimates to a much higher figure than is held out now.

The Minister spoke about tea coming down, and he is either misinformed or he has misread the statements to which he referred of the big tea sellers in England. They have brought down tea by 4/- a lb. from the 8/- rate by——

By 1/8 a lb. they brought it down. Could you not give the right price?

They brought it down from the top price by 1/8 but the recent decrease was 4/- a lb.

It was worth chancing.

Deputy O'Donovan chanced his arm to-day when he read his speech.

The Chair ruled on that.

And the Deputy afterwards had to give his speech to somebody to write for him.

The Chair ruled on that and you are flagrantly violating the rules.

You chanced your arm by pretending you were not reading——

That may not be discussed further.

The tea merchants in England who are selling tea retail and wholesale admitted they were reducing quality at the same time as they were reducing the prices. Does Deputy Barry deny that if he is so accurate in correcting me as to what the reduction was? Is it not admitted by them that they have reduced the quality? There is no answer to that: we can take that as being admitted.

You cannot take it as admitted.

I have been taking it for a great number of years. Here are two points that the Book of Estimates has not included and is concealing from the taxpayer, a liability to be met and not yet estimated but for which commitments have been made. In the case of the tea, the distributors are selling the tea at a certain price and a loss is being made, and the suggestion has been made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach — he was one of those who made it — that when tea falls below its present level, it will be kept at the same price to the people until the deficit now created is wiped out.

Or near it; that is the idea.

Do you believe that is going to happen?

It is worth trying.

It is worth trying on the people to see if they will swallow it, but it is very weak tea, so weak that it will be accepted for what it is, a drop of water.

The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

All his remarks seem to be addressed to me.

There is a form of politeness in this House — I do not object to interjections — that at least the interjector is entitled to have the reply to his interjection addressed to him.

All interjections are disorderly.

I am not questioning that, but I am just pointing out that out of politeness the reply to an interjection must be addressed through you, Sir, to the interjector.

It is my province to see that interjections do not take place, and I hope the Deputies will help me.

It would be a very dull House if we did not have an odd interjection, and I do not think that any member of the House would wish to have the rule enforced so rigidly that we would speak as if we were addressing tombstones.

I hope that is not an invitation for further interruptions.

I have referred first of all to this commitment of increased payments to the widows, orphans and aged and other such beneficiaries of State assistance. Perhaps the financial expert in the Government could tell us what that is estimated to cost, when it is going to be introduced and how much it is going to add on to the Book of Estimates. I have referred to the tea, and I say that is something we should be able to estimate so as to see how much further the Book of Estimates figure must rise.

Now I come to something else which I consider to be an unfair method of saving Government expenditure, a device whereby certain responsibilities are being transferred from the National Exchequer to the ratepayers and savings are made — or apparently savings are being made. Again, the fact is that the money has to be found but it is being lifted off the shoulders of the taxpayers to reduce the figure in the Book of Estimates and being transferred by a device to the shoulders of the local authorities and through those to the ratepayers who again, as taxpayers, pay it without knowing they are paying it that way instead of this way. I will come again to that later on, but beforehand I want to refer to Vote 9 — Public Works and Buildings. There is a magnificent saving there, a very substantial decrease. We have had questions within the last few weeks in this House, the purpose of which was to elicit from the Minister the state of our schools and the need for a rapid approach to the closing down of schools unfit for use under our present appreciation of what is, or what should be, the standard schoolhouse for children, so that such schools would be replaced urgently and immediately. But in this Book of Estimates the amount of money to be spent on the building of schools by the Board of works is down. Is that denied?

The Deputy's Party never spent even half of the money they provided for the building of schools.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to get the appropriation accounts for the last year — we have not got them for this year — and tell us the figure?

If I do get it it will bear me out.

When the Parliamentary Secretary, instead of threatening to do so, gets the figures and quotes them I will accept them, but I am not going to accept as a matter of fact a threat to be translated into a fact. I challenge the Deputy now to procure them. In the Book of Estimates here if you analyse expenditure under the Office of Public Works it will be found that the provision of money for the building of schools is less than was estimated to be provided for in the last Book of Estimates and is one of the big items in bringing this expenditure down.

The big items?

I say "big" in this way. We all know there was of necessity a hold-up in work during the emergency years and we all know that at the present time Deputies on the Government Benches have been trying to force the Government to make provision for the building of those schools and in the building of them there would be employment given as an alternative to the employment which no longer exists to the same extent in the building of houses particularly in rural areas and areas away from what you might call centres.

We will spend all the money we provide.

Would the Deputy not indicate what he means by "big" in terms of money?

I will go into the question. In the meantime the Parliamentary Secretary will get the correction for me from the appropriation accounts as I challenged him to do. There was £1,413,000 provided in the last year and there is £1,398,000 provided this year. I would like to know what was spent last year.

What is the decrease?

It was big, I say, in relation to the undertakings given. There were going to be hundreds of schools rebuilt, as is on the records of the House from last week's replies to questions. That is one item. We heard the Deputy who last spoke say that he was glad to hear the erection of Garda barracks would not be an item on which there would be extravagant expenditure.

The Deputy said nothing of the kind. He said houses for Garda not Garda barracks.

Under the expenditure for public works and buildings there was an Estimate and Supplementary Estimates amounting to £4,647,000 whereas this year it is £3,800,000. Where is the difference coming in and what is the saving to be? Is it a departure from certain types of works or does this total include savings on machinery? I do not know how many items are involved in this but there is a very substantial decrease between what was estimated last year together with Supplementary Estimates and what is being estimated now. Or are we to take it that there will be a Supplementary Estimate for that Department as well, again adding on items for this year's expenditure which is either not foreseen or is deliberately withheld in order to make the bill of costs look smaller than it is actually going to be?

There is another item I would like the Minister to explain to me and possibly to those of us here who are members of local authorities. Vote 17 is the Vote under which the Government makes its contribution to local authorities in lieu of rates. Rates are going up everywhere and yet the Government expenditure on this particular item is going down. Can the Minister tell me how that particular piece is worked? Is it that the Government is going to give up occupation of certain premises and to cease paying rates on them? How you can reduce the Government payment in lieu of rates to local authorities when rates are going up is beyond my comprehension because it is not detailed in the sense that we can easily trace it. Perhaps the Minister will be good enough to explain that when he is replying, or maybe at the moment, if he wishes to tell me where I am off the track, but certainly Vote 17 includes a considerable amount of payments, I suppose to a great extent in the City of Dublin. I do not know whether the President's establishment has got smaller or what has happened but the rates on that are down from £1,565 to £1,500. The rates in Dublin are definitely going to go up and how the Minister can save £65 from the rates I do not know. The rates contribution for the Houses of the Oireachtas is £2,555 for the year for which we are now estimating. It is down by £110.

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy but I must point out that on the Vote on Account we do not go into the items of an Estimate. It is the general, over-all policy of the Government in respect of the spending of money that must be discussed. It might be just as well to make it clear now that we do not go into the items of a Vote on Account because the Vote on Account is not itemised. The Deputy must wait until the particular Vote is being taken.

The point I am trying to make is that this Book of Estimates appears to me to be one which is not giving a fair picture to the public. I have pointed out already that certain payments which are bound to come up for payment within the course of the financial year are not in this Book of Estimates and I am asking — I will not say charging — how certain of these payments can be fixed in the face of rates going up every year. I want just to illustrate a couple of cases——

If the Deputy wanted to do that he could travel over every Estimate in detail and somebody else might want later on to go over the various Estimates — those on agriculture, fisheries, lands and so forth.

I only want to substantiate the point of view which I am arguing and the reason I am arguing that point of view. I see the rates in the City of Dublin, to which the Government makes substantial payments, are going up, and unfortunately they will go up again because payments previously made out of the Exchequer will be thrown on the backs of local ratepayers, and on the backs of industrial ratepayers. I am saying that because I think that only on that basis is it possible to estimate here for less when we know that the payments must go up. Normally, any private person who occupies a premises or a business house, if he makes any additions to his property, will suffer from higher rates because the Valuation Office people come round and put up his valuation. We have discussed that matter before and we hope some time to see some more equitable approach to the problem. But in addition to rates going up in Dublin we are, Sir, with your permission, continually adding to the size of this House.

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

I take it you are in charge of this House, and that if there is any building to be done here it must be done with your permission, and I am sure, Sir, that you will admit you have not been responsible for demolishing any parts of Leinster House in order that there could be a reduction in the rates. That is a simple instance, and I want to know how it is done. It is a marvellous thing but I think — and whoever has done the pruning has slipped up there — that the Minister will have to mend his hand here.

If there is going to be a cutting down of payments to the local authorities at a time when rates are rising the Government might find the local authority may reduce its services. We may, in fact, cut off the water here and make the Government pay for the water. I have said already that there is a new device in operation and, of course, the 1953 Health Act will be brought to the assistance of the Government as the big gun of their defence. But I should like to say to the House this, and I should like to have my remarks put on record: up to some months ago industrial workers contributed, or the employers contributed for them, under the National Health Scheme, and if such an industrially insured worker required hospital treatment or anything else of that kind, it was the Department of Social Welfare which paid for his hospital upkeep or for whatever other medical treatment he thought he might need. What happens now? The stamps are still being paid by the worker or by his employer and the money still goes into the Exchequer but now the charge for the health maintenance of these insured workers is paid out of the rates.

Did not the Deputy himself provide for that?

I am coming to that, too. I said the big guns would be turned on, but there will be a few little machine guns in reply which might very well put the big guns out of action. I discovered yesterday at the meeting of the Dublin Corporation that there is an additional £150,000 to be provided for by the Dublin Corporation because of these transfers to us of these charges of which, I admit, we are recouped 50 per cent. But that leaves us a matter of £75,000 a year for these workers alone. That is an imposition on the ratepayers, with the consequent saving of £75,000 to the State. It means 8d. in the £ on the rates and when Deputy Barry gets back to Cork he will find the same situation, but to what extent in money or by way of increasing rates he will have to find out later. Is not that a nice state of affairs?

Who dunnit?

The man who dunnit was the Minister for Health in this Government.

All this is discussing legislation which has been passed. Is what the Deputy is discussing administration? Is what he is discussing done by administrative action by the Minister or is it done by legislation?

It is done by administrative action by the Minister.

By the 1953 Health Act.

I am not going to let that be the answer. Under the Act there was provision that the Minister could administer in certain ways, in other words that he had power to do so and so.

But is not the Deputy discussing legislation that was passed by the House?

I am referring to an act of administration by the Minister which would not come before the House.

The Deputy says the Minister was entitled to do certain things by virtue of an Act of the Oireachtas. Accordingly, he cannot escape discussing legislation that passed through the House.

The Minister might, or might not, do the things referred to.

The Minister had no such discretion at all.

That is not correct.

I am assured that it is.

The Deputy cannot avoid discussing legislation passed by this House if he goes on the line he has been following. Obviously he may not do that.

I want to show the House how a big saving has been made in the Vote for the Department of Health——

Under the provisions of a certain piece of legislation passed by the House.

Subject to your ruling, a Cheann Comhairle, I want to take that as an argument to show how savings can be made in the Vote for the Department of Health by concealment and by transfers. The Minister recently ordered the Dublin local authority to increase by 100 per cent. the payment it made to hospitals for the maintenance of Dublin patients. Previously, the State made up the deficits of the public hospitals. Now it reduces the payments by saying to the customers: "Pay more," the customer in this case being the local authority. That is going to impose another couple of shillings in the £ on the ratepayers in Dublin and it is taken off the Book of Estimates. I call it just a device.

Now, there was a time before the first inter-Party Government was formed when their predecessors in office, the Fianna Fáil Party, had built up a substantial fund of Hospital Trust moneys which were invested for the purpose of bringing in a certain amount of money every year to meet deficits. When the first inter-Party Government came in, in their anxiety to build hospitals at an even greater rate than had been done by their predecessors they wiped out roughly £5,000,000 already saved for the purpose of having an income to meet deficits, and they had then to meet deficits out of taxation. Now, in order to reduce national expenditure, there is a shift on to some other public authority to collect from the public and the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Donovan, had the audacity to say the other day that if I was making as good a job of the Special Works Committee of the City of Dublin as I was of the rates he would not think much of it. But these are the gentlemen who are causing all the trouble where the rates are concerned.

Have I not been vindicated by this morning's news? The rates are going up by 2/11; does not that vindicate me?

For a person who holds himself out as an expert in finance that is rather an extraordinary question. I have been for the last ten or 15 minutes trying the patience of the Chair in an effort to prove that 2/11 has been imposed on the ratepayers of Dublin because of a shift of the burden from the Exchequer and the Parliamentary Secretary now wants to make out that I am responsible for that; I am his Minister for Finance doing this on the people of Dublin.

Could not the Deputy have made a few economies the same as we did?

The Parliamentary Secretary is talking over the Deputy's head now.

He is not talking over my head. He may be talking over Deputy Barry's head. I am not able to deal in magic. I have proved conclusively, and I defy contradiction on it, that the change of payment for certain health services from the Exchequer to the rates is a device to show a decrease in the Health Estimate and is the cause of the increase in the rates levied by the local authority. Surely to goodness, that is a form of words which does not put anything over anybody's head. Deputy Barry will have to answer for the increase in Cork City and there will be just as big an outcry there as there is in Dublin; and I certainly will not be held responsible for the increased rates in Cork City, but Deputy Barry will.

The National Development Fund is not included in this figure of estimated expenditure, but there is a note to say that it will be introduced later in the year. How much will it be? Will it be £1,000,000? Will it be £3,000,000? Will it be £5,000,000? It will be something. The Minister for Finance and the Government can take it from me that it is no more likely that full employment will eventuate in this year than it is that tea will come back to its pre-war level.

Exactly what point is the Deputy making?

I am asking how much the National Development Fund will cost from the point of view of another Estimate.

When I was making my calculations I deliberately subtracted the amount of the National Development Fund last year from this year in order to produce an honest picture.

The Minister talks about honest and dishonest pictures. He plays with words. He tries to use this House as a political platform as if he is addressing a meeting somewhere in Kildare during a general election campaign.

There is no necessity for me to worry about that for five years, or four-and-a-half perhaps.

The last time we were told it would be 16 years.

There is not a word about that in the Vote on Account.

There may be some provision for the cost of a general election.

I cannot find it so, therefore, it is not relevant. We will proceed to discuss the Vote on Account now.

I will discuss another decrease that has been effected. I was saying it is not likely that we will have full employment in the coming financial year and, therefore, it will be necessary to make provision in the Estimates so that money will be available to give immediate employment to those who are in need of it. It is no use our waiting until the situation is such that it has to be met by way of panic or emergency measures. Does the Minister not realise despite what he says about a reduction in the numbers of people signing on that a tendency towards further disemployment has grown up during the last few months. Strange to say, there is not a single member of the Labour Party here except, of course, the Minister for Social Welfare. I must apologise to him, but I am talking really of backbenchers like myself; there is not one here to ask why no provision has been made for what the Minister for Social Welfare promised by way of additional payments to old age pensioners and widows and orphans.

Wait and see.

Why is it not in the Estimates? I must protest on behalf of Deputies and the public that we have here a Book of Estimates in relation to which a claim is made that there is now a tendency to bring down national expenditure, and when I challenge the fact that there is no provision for a particular type of expenditure I am told by a Minister: "Wait and see."

Was the Deputy's miserable 1/6 put into the Estimates in 1952?

We did not enter into it as a commitment as this promised increase has been entered into. I would welcome the Minister for Social Welfare coming into this House at any time and saying: "I am in a position to be more benevolent than I have been and, because income is much better than we expected, or for some other reason, we can now give more benefits to the people." That is a different story. That is how we did it. But we have been told here that there is a definite commitment that the increase will be given, and there is no provision for it in the Book of Estimates. Either the increase will be given or it will not, but, in any case, it is wrong not to show it.

The Deputy is trying to draw the Minister for Social Welfare.

I am not trying to draw the Minister for Social Welfare, and the Minister for Social Welfare is well able to take care of himself without the assistance of the Minister for Finance.

I took care of the Deputy, too, on occasions.

I agree, and very good care of me. I am not grumbling about it. I am talking about the Book of Estimates produced here by the Minister for Finance: "So many millions were required last year; we will require so many millions less this year; we are a good Government — a wonderful Government."

I am glad the Deputy realises it.

I am not agreeing with it. What I am saying is that that is what the Minister for Finance is claiming. I am pointing out that it is a fictitious claim, and that there are millions of pounds yet to be provided for to which the Minister has been committed by his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare. If I know the make up of the Cabinet, the fact that the Minister for Social Welfare has publicly said so, means that the money will be provided for that purpose. If it is not, it might be a good thing to provide in the Estimates a little bit more money for a general election which might come sooner than expected.

Can I send the Deputy a copy of our 12-point programme and policy?

This House does not happen to be a body of people assembled around a beautifully festooned platform, with bands playing, listening to promises made "If you vote for us". We are here on serious business. The 12 points have nothing whatever to do with this Estimate. This Estimate has a certain number of Votes in it — a 66-point programme. There are 66 Estimates.

And 34 out of the 66 have been reduced.

34 out of 66 reduced? I say reduced by pure misleading information or by the concealment or withholding of demands that will be made later by means of Supplementary Estimates or by shifting the burden, as I have proved, from the State National Exchequer to the local authorities and through them to the ratepayers. That is how it is being done. Does the Minister not realise that the public will be educated into an understanding of why these things are happening? Does he not know that there is a great demand by public opinion for a shifting of certain responsibilities from the backs of the ratepayers to the National Exchequer, and that there are more than sufficient statutory demands on local authorities over which they have no control and no say but that by administration in Government offices additional payments have to be extracted from the public without the people understanding how or why.

I am making the case that this Book of Estimates is not going to be the full Book of Estimates. As I said before, I would be glad to welcome it if it were. It strikes me as being the kind of Book of Estimates which is an insurance policy against a possible split in the present component parts that make up the Government. If they do split, it will make an excellent election Budget, not for the Labour people because they have been left out.

I have seen statements made by prominent Labour members saying that they had forced the Government to keep the price of tea at its present level. That would indicate that the Minister for Finance may not be too happy about it. The Minister must have some idea or some information about this, and I should like to ask him, how much money does he think the coming financial year will become liable for as a result of the loss accruing by keeping the price of tea at its present level, and why is provision not being made for it in the Estimates?

We might not want it.

I have great respect for a person of my own age as far as years go, but I certainly have great sympathy for someone who is an infant so far as experience in this House is concerned. The Deputy says: "We might not want it." I want to say to him that you cannot legislate on the basis of what might or what might not be. One has to estimate on the basis of what one thinks is going to happen and make provision for it.

My guess is as good as yours there.

I am not guessing.

I think you are.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to speak without interruption.

The Deputy is hoping that tea will be dearer.

I certainly am not hoping that, in parts of the world over which we have no control or association, circumstances will again come to the point when people will have to live on nothing in order to supply us and other countries with rice and tea at a cheap price. I am not hoping for that. I am a realist.

Is the Deputy not getting tedious?

I may be getting tedious to Deputy O'Sullivan, but I am certainly not getting tedious to myself.

The Deputy did not see the pun.

Who would call that a pun?

The Deputy does not know anything about tea.

The Deputy says that I do not know anything about tea. I do not because I do not deal in tea, but I do claim to know something about world tendencies and conditions. I know — I mentioned this in an earlier debate—that the tea-drinking population of the world has increased considerably. We all know that the demand for tea exceeds the supply and that tea is now sold in a free market. People bid for it against one another.

And you know that it is cheaper now than it was a month ago.

Yes, a lot cheaper.

We told you a month ago that it would be cheaper.

Deputy Barry has already spoken and he should not interrupt.

Probably it will be a lot cheaper in a couple of months' time, but it will never again be sufficiently cheap to sell it at 2/8 per lb. Maybe Deputy Barry would put that in his pipe and smoke it. There should be appreciation of the situation that we have confronting us. The point that I am coming to is that if the Government wish to subsidise tea they should do so and if necessary in doing so should ration it so that the tea subsidised by the taxpayers' money will not be smuggled out of the country or be taken in excess by those who can better afford to buy it in comparison with those who cannot afford to do so. Let there be some proper control. The same applies to butter. The Minister talked about the cost of butter and mentioned, I think, the figure of £2,000,000.

£2,015,000.

I will take the round figure of £2,000,000. I am saying to the Minister that, in my opinion, that sum of £2,000,000 could have been better spent by reducing the price of the loaf by one penny. I said in a previous debate that such a reduction would have brought far more benefit to the people whom the Minister for Social Welfare wants to help. Why should I get 5d. off the lb. of butter?

Why did you put 3d. on the loaf?

The Deputy is leaving the House and so I cannot answer him. Why did I put 3d. on the loaf?

The voice of conscience.

I did it all on my own? I put it up on a stick and Deputy A. Byrne is carrying the stick around and the loaf is still on top of it. I am hoping that by the time the Budget is introduced the public will be properly educated to a full appreciation of the trick, as I call it, that is being played on them. As Deputy de Valera, the Leader of this Party, said to-day, you can trick the people once or twice but that is about the last time.

He should know.

Was that another pun? I did not catch the Deputy.

Perhaps the Deputy would repeat the interjection. I did not catch it.

Interjections are out of order. The Deputy should confine himself to the Vote on Account.

I said while the Ceann Comhairle was in the Chair, and I say again, that I would hate to see this House conducting its business without an odd interruption.

In that case the Deputy's speeches would be very short.

No. I could keep going for a long time without interruption. The Minister might read some of my speeches. We will hear from Deputy O'Donovan an explanation that there is adequate provision in this Book of Estimates for everything that will need to be met in the course of the coming financial year. Deputy O'Donovan will tell us that.

The Parliamentary Secretary.

I am very sorry, Sir. It is the confusion between the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Sullivan, and the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Donovan, that constantly upsets me. The Minister for Finance talked about the bank rate. That was referred to by another speaker, and great credit was being given to the Minister for the wonderful job he had done in getting the banks to agree not to raise the overdraft rate of interest notwithstanding what had happened in England, but I notice this morning that the banks have announced an increased rate for deposits. It is very interesting. Why was that done? It is quite clear to me that if our banks, which have branches in Northern Ireland, in the occupied Six Counties, and have connections across the water, if the difference between the rates of interest chargeable is very significant, obviously the money will be transferred there because, under present conditions, the banks are the trustees for money which is deposited with them by the public or on loan and nothing can stop the persons taking out their money.

If, on the one hand, you have a lesser rate of overdraft than normal and you have a more attractive deposit rate somewhere else, the individual who has his money in the bank for long periods would be inclined to take it out, say, of our area and put it in the other area where he would get ½ per cent. more interest on his money and that would immediately cause a situation which would be very unsatisfactory. I do not know, I do not suppose the Minister knows — at the present moment I do not suppose it would be fair to go into it in any great detail— nobody knows what margins there are for our banks.

The Minister was responsible for the setting up of a tribunal to examine and to try to bring to an end a dispute where the banks resisted a demand for increased payment to their staffs because, they said, their profit margins would not allow it. On the other hand there is, and always has been, a volume of opinion that the banks made very substantial profits and could easily afford to be more generous, not only with their staffs but with their customers in the rates they were charging.

The Deputy is widening the debate very much.

The Minister for Finance introduced it as part of his contribution to the reduction in the cost of living. It may be all he says. It may be a good thing but it also has very dangerous consequences. It might mean that the State, for the first time, would have seriously to interfere in the control and management of money, and it might affect very seriously the whole life and employment of our people and the cost of living. It is not a thing that one can toy with. It is a subject that has been discussed and argued for many years. Deputy MacBride is a student of this matter and has certain definite views. I have other views. There are others who have other views again. Friends who are in close association with each other and who discuss this matter day after day cannot find agreement because of the peculiar position that money holds in the scheme of things in the whole free world. I should like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Donovan, on this matter. We have had statements made by the Minister. The Minister was lauded by the Deputy from County Louth. Reference was made to this matter by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government the other day. Perhaps he would elucidate the matter further and tell us how this will in fact help us in our present situation.

The central services payments, to which Deputy de Valera alluded to-day, include, as the Minister also rightly said, interest charges and sinking fund on borrowed money. It may be thought that by keeping our bank rate down the Government and local authorities that have to borrow from the public may be able to get money cheaper than has been possible in recent years.

It will not be dearer anyway.

It is all very well to theorise about it. The Parliamentary Secretary is now in a position where he is part of the machine that is responsible for providing certain services. The oil for that machinery has to be found, the oil in this case being the money. If, by wrong management or wrong manipulation, money is not available, certain things cannot be done. Dublin Corporation has to borrow very heavily. Our borrowing is going from £5,000,000 to £5,500,000 to £6,000,000, mainly for housing. Over a period of years we have had to increase the amount of interest paid in order to attract money to corporation securities. There is no use in saying that the reason why the corporation cannot get money as readily as the State can get it is that there is not the same confidence in the corporation as there is in the State. Local authoritity bonds or securities are in fact guaranteed in full by the State. The reason is that the area of sale is much less than the area of sale of a national security or sterling securities of, say, the British Government.

Money is a commodity and, if you cannot, by an offer of a certain rate of interest get money in sufficient quantities to meet the needs then you must offer a more attractive rate to the people who hold the money. Whether we like it or not, there will be these ups and downs all the time, depending upon the availability of ready money. There is no use in thinking that by legislation we can regulate the flow of money one way or the other. It depends entirely on the earning capacity of the public, the method by which they can save the amount left after paying profits tax and income tax and the opportunities for investment.

There is no use in thinking that under present circumstances we can regulate and regiment the supply and the flow of money just by saying we will keep down the rate of interest charged. It is a very delicate thing with which to just play around. It is a very grand thing to see that there may be money made available at a cheaper rate, but one has to see in the long run what the consequences are going to be. I want to sum up what I started to say. I do not accept this Book of Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1956, as a true picture of the amount of money which will be required in that financial year. I have said, because of commitments made and promises given, of necessity Supplementary Estimates will have to be introduced, for how many million pounds I do not know.

I have said, and I believe that, within the year, some adjustment will have to be made with regard to tea. This is something which cannot be carried on from year to year, for an unlimited number of years with expectancy that the price of tea will come back again to what it was in prewar years. I have given the reason for that. I also say that the cost of living will not come down as was expected — I will not say promised— that it will continue to rise, and Government expenditure will continue to rise.

I do not think it is any use making a comparison between the amount of money which was required in 1927, 1928 or 1932. We all know that one of the contributing factors in the increased expenditure is that the purchasing power of money has diminished to such an extent that £1 to-day is only really worth 8/-. Therefore, we should approach this matter from a realistic point of view. I would far rather hear the Minister for Finance saying: "We attacked you. We thought that you were budgeting for a surplus of £10,000,000. We have found that that was not so. We know you will understand the fact that we need so much more than you people now, and this is why we need the money, and we are giving the public benefits as a result of this expenditure." It is not going to do the country or anybody any good, even the inter-Party Government, trying to put in the minds of the people that they are, in fact, carrying out what they undertook to do when they faced them in the general election; because that is not being done. It cannot be done. My only grievance, if you like, and the only fault I am finding, is that there is an attempt to proceed to blindfold the people, instead of taking the bandages off their eyes, and letting them see what the position really is, and instead of trying to educate the people into understanding why it is costly to govern the State, why it is costly to provide all the social services, and so on. An attempt is being made to continue the farce of telling the people that you are, in fact, reducing the expenditure. I say definitely it is not being done.

In conclusion, I shall refer to the shifted burden from the Central Fund to the backs of local authorities. I want to protest as much as I can against this device, which is only for the purpose of helping to reduce the national expenditure. It is all in the same picture and scheme of things. It does not mean anything, and I ask the Minister, when he is replying, to tell the House what he estimates will be the total amount of the Supplementary Estimates which will be introduced before the end of the next financial year has been reached.

I think most of us enjoy Deputy Briscoe's speeches. In his speech to-night, he appealed to us to be realistic. I do not think that he himself in his approach, or in his examination of the Book of Estimates, has been very realistic. I want to take him up on one point before I go any further, and that is, his complaint that there is no provision in the Book of Estimates for an increase in old age pensions. As a matter of fact, he complains that there is a reduction of £10,000.

I did not say there was any reduction.

You did say it.

I did not speak about it. I did not make a reference to that reduction.

Deputy Lynch did.

I beg your pardon. In any case, Deputy Briscoe complains that there is no provision for an increase, and Deputy Jack Lynch complained that there was a reduction of £10,000. In the first place, I want to assure the House that the reduction of £10,000 in the Book of Estimates does not affect at all the amounts that will be paid to old age pensioners. As far as that amount is concerned, it is merely explained by the fact that there is a reduction in the number of old age pensions for next year, as there has been a decrease in the number of old age pensioners in the country over the past four years. But Deputy Briscoe wants the Minister for Finance to include in the Book of Estimates this year an additional sum for old age pensioners.

Widows and orphans.

You just mentioned old age pensions.

No, I mentioned the three of them.

I asked Deputy Briscoe to wait and see, and I still tell him to wait and see. I think I said to him, by way of interjection, whilst he was talking, that the 1/6 per week increase given to old age pensioners when Fianna Fáil were in power in 1952, was not reflected in the Book of Estimates. Deputy Briscoe's general attitude on this particular Vote seems to be that it should be in the nature of a Budget discussion, and he would merely ask the Minister for Finance to make his Budget speech and his Budget proposals; but we did not see reflected in the Book of Estimates for the year 1952-53 the proposals that were subsequently introduced to slash the food subsidies.

But we had not made promises, and that is the difference.

We made promises to increase old age pensions, and that will be done much quicker than Deputy Briscoe wants it to be done. I want to remind him of this. Deputy Briscoe seems to be anxious to see an increase in old age pensions. I am rather doubtful as to whether the leader of his Party wants to see an increase. If Deputy Briscoe had been present at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis in November last, he would have heard Deputy de Valera say that under present circumstances it would be dangerous to increase the social services. Does Deputy Briscoe believe that?

That is a different thing from increasing the rate of social services.

Does he or any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party believe it would be a dangerous thing to increase the social services?

He also said that in Cavan a fortnight ago.

The extent of social services.

While it is not included in the Book of Estimates, the Government will definitely honour its promise to the old age pensioners.

How much will it be?

Now, wait and see.

Wait until when and see what?

Wait and see. As a matter of fact, speaking at the same Árd Fheis — it is not my habit usually to throw quotations in the faces of people, but it is interesting to quote on this occasion — Dr. Ryan inferred that it would be better if the old age pensioners, rather than getting an increase from the State, were to get a little extra from the local authorities. That was advocating what Deputy Briscoe deprecated a few moments ago —the placing of additional burdens on the local authorities.

I still do.

As far as I can gather, the leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party —I exclude the Deputies here to-night —do not want to see old age pensions increased.

Do you subscribe to the tax of £2 an acre on the farmers suggested by one of your leaders?

Do you want a straight answer? No.

That is all right, but it has been suggested by one of your leaders.

Not by the leader.

Will Deputy Briscoe cease interrupting? He has spoken at length and he should allow the Minister to speak.

I can well detect, and one does not need to be a very good detective to recognise, the utter disappointment of members of the Fianna Fáil Party with the amount in the Book of Estimates. I want to say this —and this allegation has not been made by any member of the Fianna Fáil Party — that, in this Book of Estimates, there is no provision in any Vote which will mean a decrease in employment. Will any member of the Opposition point to any of these Votes where there is——

I said it.

——a decrease in services.

I said it — public works.

We will come to that later. These Estimates have been framed to ensure that Government will be run on the most economical lines, without doing any injury to employment or to services, whether social services, health services or any other. That is the important thing, so far as this Book of Estimates is concerned.

Deputy Aiken spoke about unemployment and told us that the trend was upwards. Does anybody in the House believe that?

Is there anybody who will allege that there has not been a substantial decrease in the unemployment figures compared with this time last year and is that not a heartening trend? Surely these words come strangely——

The figures are less.

Surely Deputy Briscoe should keep his mouth shut and not interrupt the Minister every moment.

The Taoiseach might be a little more polite.

The Deputy is interrupting.

I was interrupted many times, but I did not use the language the Taoiseach uses.

I repeat it.

I do not mind interruptions in good part and I took them in good part.

The interruptions should cease.

We had a pleasant House until the Taoiseach came in.

He stopped the interruptions, anyway.

If Deputy Briscoe does not cease interrupting, I will have to deal with him.

Surely it does not come well from a member of the Fianna Fáil Party to talk about unemployment in the year 1955, when we remember that, in the spring of 1953, there were practically 90,000 unemployed. I think it is fair for us to compare the unemployment figures at present with those of last year and of 1953 when the unemployment figures reached the colossal total of 90,000, a total they had not reached for decades and decades.

On that point, Deputy Aiken complained that there was substantially less provided in the Book of Estimates for unemployment assistance. Of course, there is, because we believe, and we have evidence, that the trend in unemployment is downwards. There will be substantially less required under that particular heading this year. Deputy Aiken, on the other hand, says that there are an increased number drawing unemployment benefit. That is admitted, and the reason for it is that, due to the change in the Social Welfare Act, there are more and more persons becoming eligible for unemployment benefit. That is the simple explanation. There is no mystery about it, but what the amount provided for in respect of unemployment assistance is based on is the general trend of unemployment, which, as I say, is downward. Deputy Briscoe might well know that, in respect of a particular type of employment in Dublin City——

I am keeping my mouth shut.

So far as the figures disclose the numbers employed on general building construction and repair, those unemployed under each heading have decreased substantially over the past two years. At present, the unemployment figure for those normally engaged in general building construction and repairs is 7,481. At the same time last year, it was 8,906, and, at the same time in 1953, 9,690. Everybody will agree also that so far as house building is concerned, there is once again a spur to local authorities to build more houses, and the reason there is less unemployment in the City of Dublin is that, in one instance, there are more people employed on house construction in the city. Credit for that can be taken by the new look that is on the Department of Agriculture and the new frame of mind, the new attitude of mind, on the part of the Minister, similar to that adopted by the Local Government Ministers in the inter-Party Government from 1948 to 1951. I alleged while in Opposition that there was a slowing down of house building so far as the Custom House was concerned and I repeat that here.

There was.

I saw evidence of it in constituencies all over the country and the figures we now have for employment in that industry in the City of Dublin bear out what we alleged when we were in Opposition.

Some Deputy complained that there was a decrease in sub-head A of Vote 9 for the Board of Works in relation to the provision of new buildings. There is a decrease, of course; there is a decrease of £410,000 because next year we do not intend to buy an embassy at over £100,000. That is one of the reasons it is down, but it will have no effect on employment in this country. Deputy J. Lynch alleged that the Vote indicated that there would be less money spent on the building of schools. That is not so. There is a similar amount of money to that provided last year for the building of schools, and it is wrong to say that there is any change of heart on the part of the Minister for Education, or of the Government generally, in relation to school buildings. Employment and emergency schemes remain the same, but, in view of the fact that the unemployment figures have shown a decrease, it will mean that that money can be expended in another direction.

So far as Vote 27 — Department of Agriculture — is concerned, I think the increases shown in the Book of Estimates indicate the Government's desire to invest money in the land of this country, to invest money in the agricultural industry, and while members of the Opposition on the Front Bench talked about decreases in certain Votes, there was no reference by them to these important increases which, as I say, are an indication of the Government's determination to provide more capital for the building up of the agricultural industry. There is an increase of £216,000 for farm buildings and water supplies. I have not heard anybody from the Opposition make any comment about that. This will be of tremendous help to the agricultural industry and will, in itself, give employment on the land. The land project shows an increase of £208,000. Let us not get into any argument now as to who started the land project.

Deputy Childers says Fianna Fáil.

This Government believe that the investment of money in the land is the best way to encourage agricultural production. Neither is there any use in getting into an argument as to whether or not it was desirable to sell the land project machinery. Personally, I think it was a very bad idea. However, the damage has been done. The land project is now being geared up to a fairly rapid speed and this injection of £208,000 should make that scheme go at an even greater rate.

There is a provision of £262,000 for the eradication of bovine T.B. and a provision of £100,000 for the pasteurisation of milk. This is money which is being devoted in the right direction.

I did not hear many people from the other side of the House speak about the increases provided under the Vote for the Department of Local Government. As a matter of fact, I think some Deputy complained that there was a decrease in the amount to be provided for housing. If the Vote is examined it will be found that, as far as grants for private house building and reconstruction are concerned, there is an increase of £250,000. I do not think anybody would say that there has been any change of heart so far as this Government are concerned in the matter of house building. Over the past two or three years it was alleged that there was not the same demand for houses. It was alleged by the former Taoiseach that, in certain of the smaller local authority areas, the demand for houses had been filled.

"Had reached saturation point."

I do not think that is the case. I do not say that the former Taoiseach was deliberately telling an untruth, but I do not think he was fully aware of the situation that existed in the country. He mentioned several of these smaller local authority areas where, he said, the housing demands had been met. We find, however, that, over the past two years, there has been an actual demand in these local authority areas. He based his allegations on a survey carried out in 1946. As Deputies will remember, a housing survey was carried out in 1946. That survey revealed that a certain number of houses — I think the figure was 100,000 houses — were needed in the country. In my opinion, that survey was carried out in a slipshod manner in many counties and did not present the true picture in regard to housing. As a matter of fact, after two or three years, it was absolutely outdated. Therefore, I feel it would be a very good idea to have another survey because, even in the period from 1946 to the present time, many houses have been demolished or have come into disuse and the general situation has changed to a very great extent.

The indications are that house building in the country generally has got more encouragement than it had been getting in the past three years. I cannot imagine why it was not encouraged to the utmost extent during those three years of Fianna Fáil Government. Many reforms were suggested by the then Minister for Local Government, but I do not think they were for the better. Whether it was intended or not I do not know but, whatever happened, those suggested or proposed changes went a great deal of the way towards slowing down the whole machine. In my view, the policy suggested by the late Deputy T.J. Murphy when he was Minister for Local Government from 1948 to 1950 should be pursued at the present time. He favoured to the utmost extent possible a system of direct labour for house building by local authorities. He did not want to insist that local authorities should engage in that type of house building but he believed, as I believe and as the present Minister for Local Government believes, that, working the two systems together — the policy of direct labour by the local authorities and private building where they so decided — we could fill our housing demands in a reasonable time.

I am sure it must be very welcome news to Deputies, especially Deputies from rural constituencies, that an extra £500,000 is to be provided for county roads. Not alone will that fill a long-felt want — that is, the improvement of many of these second and third class roads — but, as far as I am concerned, it will provide much-needed employment in rural areas.

How many miles would that represent?

I do not know but it means that there is an increase of 30 per cent. on the amount that was provided last year. A sum of £1,700,000 was provided for county roads last year and, this year, the sum is £2,200,000. That will provide more employment. In addition, less of the big and heavy type of machinery will be used. The result, therefore, in many of our rural areas will be that there will be much-needed employment available and, in turn, that will help to modify in some way, as I think Deputy Briscoe mentioned, the flight from the land. All of us must admit that, for a long number of years, there has been a tendency on the part of the rural worker, through force of circumstances, to go into the towns or, more unfortunate still, to emigrate.

Either Deputy de Valera or Deputy Aiken complained that there are certain cuts in the Forestry Vote. If my reading of that Vote is correct, it means that there is an increase of £289,500 for forestry development and maintenance. Deputy Briscoe shakes his head. Possibly he has the book before him. If he will look at Vote No. 48 sub-head C (2), he will see that there is an increase of £289,500 for forestry development and maintenance. That, in itself, creates more employment. Deputy de Valera complains that less money was provided for the acquisition of land.

That is right — £60,000.

I want to assure the House that at least the same programme of acquisition will be carried on for next year as in the present year. Deputy Briscoe may question that and ask how can it be done on a Vote reduced by £60,000. The Minister for Lands interjected here to-day to say there is a carry-over which will provide the same amount if not more than was provided in the Estimate for this year.

Does the Minister know how much was provided for the acquisition of land in 1948 — £8,000 is the figure.

The fact is that there is a carry-over and has been a carry-over for the last two or three years— because the former Minister for Lands did not use the amount provided in the Estimates for those particular years. It may seem a fantastic story to Deputy Briscoe, but that is the fact. Because it was not spent in the last two years it will be possible now to carry it over and provide for the Minister for Lands the same amount, in order that he may acquire at least the same as was acquired for the last two or three years. In the same Vote there is provision also for an increase in timber conversion and that, in itself, provides more employment.

There has also been some comment regarding health services. I want to assure the House and those who are interested that what this Government want to see and what I want to see is not a health service scheme on paper but a health service scheme in operation. It is very easy to have on paper a grandiose scheme that is not capable of being put into operation within a certain time. As far as I am concerned — and may I presume to talk on behalf of my Party — as far as my Party is concerned, it is determined to see that the best services that can be made available will be made available. The Minister for Finance announced here to-day that there will be spent next year on health services £760,000— over three quarters of a million pounds —more than will be spent in the present year. He also indicated that certain other important portions of the Health Act will be brought into operation in the present calendar year. Let nobody believe or be influenced by any speeches or any Press reports when it is alleged that there is a cut of over £1,000,000 in the Health Vote. The Health Vote for this year provides that there will be increased and better services for the people. That is in accordance with the pledge given by the Minister for Health speaking a few months ago. He said then that as soon as ever he could he would put into full operation the other parts of the Health Act of 1953.

I think it was Deputy Aiken who spoke about the stores in the Army. I want to assure Deputy Briscoe that no soldier will go unclothed for the next year.

I did not mention a soldier.

But you are not Deputy Aiken.

I know. I do not want the Taoiseach rapping me on the knuckles again. Leave me out of it.

I said Deputy Aiken.

You said Deputy Briscoe.

I am sorry. He was worried about the Army and tried to give the impression that there was not a uniform up in the barracks for any new soldier. I want to assure Deputy Aiken and the House that there is sufficient of that type of clothing and stores for one and a half or two years so let no one get the impression that this Government is trying to cut down on any of these things for the personnel of the National Army.

I got the impression in the last few weeks from some members of the Opposition that had they been in power they would have made little effort to do anything about the cost of living or about prices. I recognise a sense of disappointment at the determination of this Government to do everything in its power to control prices. There was an obvious disappointment in the ranks of the Fianna Fáil Party when butter was reduced by 5d. a lb. Deputy Briscoe said his preference would be for bread. I suppose that is a matter of opinion. There might be people in his own Party who would differ from him on that. When I canvassed in the last general election in various constituencies, the strongest complaint I heard from housewives generally was on the price of butter. Because it was felt that the cost of butter to the ordinary family fell very heavily on them, the Government decided as a first step to decrease that particular commodity by 5d. a lb. That was done during the year and there is provision for that particular subsidy in the Book of Estimates.

I am not as good a speculator as Deputy Briscoe in prices and certainly not in the price of tea but I would back certain prominent gentlemen in the tea trade as against him in regard to fluctuation in tea prices. I do not think it would have been fair to the Irish people to slap on the increase that was recommended by the Prices Advisory Body in October last. The decision of the Government not to increase the price of tea at that particular time and not to increase the price when it was recommended again in January was, in view of all that has happened since, the right decision to take. I do not think anyone on the Government side has said they expected tea to go down to the price it stood at last June, July or August. I do not say that is going to happen but I think that the price which obtained in Britain a month or two ago was largely an artificial price and because we are concerned about the cost of living it would not have been right or just for us to impose the increase that was recommended to us by the Prices Advisory Body.

It seems to me that if the Fianna Fáil Government were in office their attitude would have been to throw up their hands in respect of nearly every single commodity and say: "We can do nothing about it". That seems to be the general attitude. They are disappointed that prices have not gone up in this or that direction in respect of various commodities. We are determined to make every effort and to take all necessary steps to see that the cost of living is controlled so as to bring it to a level at which the Irish people can bear it. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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