Anyhow, I am thankful to the Minister for his generosity towards the area that naturally is the most important place in the world to me. At the same time he has interfered with my line of thought, if I really had any serious thought at all, so to that extent I am not a bit grateful to him. I said I would venture to guess what those local bodies by a majority would do and rightly do. Let me say more. When we of this Party were discussing the question as to whether this power should be left with local bodies, I happened to be at the time a member of a local body and as far as I can recall, my own view was against the decision that was made then. If I am convinced now that the course that was taken was right, it is because I have had a good deal of experience since then.
What I cannot understand on the part of some Deputies is this. They are greatly concerned about what members of county councils will do. They seem to regard them as a lot of irresponsibles. But let anyone here go into a council chamber, meet these men at a conference table or listen to them discussing the affairs of their area and he could not reasonably come forward here and show all this concern as to their incapacity to appoint a few rate collectors, as the Minister has stated, one each year for each county council in the country.
It is only a few weeks since the present Attorney-General, addressing a Fine Gael Convention in County Galway, drew attention to the fact that this piece of legislation was designed to give to local bodies a greater power. He expressed the hope, and he expressed not only the hope but the conviction, that as a result of the extension of the powers that were contained in this Bill, a better type, moryah, of representative or candidate would present himself to the electorate. You cannot merely talk this away by trying to anticipate the argument of those who are in favour of the present position. You cannot meet the case by saying: "I know you may charge me with criticising and complaining over the last nine, ten or 15 years because you have deprived members of local bodies of this power", You will say to me: "Those who were carrying on that campaign are now asking the Legislature to relieve the local body of the one substantial power they have." You just cannot justify the inconsistency you show by making that case.
When the present Attorney-General made these remarks at the meeting to which I have referred, he had in mind, of course, that judges are appointed on a political basis, that briefs are distributed on a political basis. There is no use in any member of this House, whether he is in Fianna Fáil or any other Party, pretending that the public cannot see this. When we stand up here and express our concern for democracy because of the way in which these powers will be abused by the elected members down the country, the people must say: "Surely they have their tongues in their cheeks," and they must have a good laugh at us.
Some Deputies here have suggested all kinds of methods by which these appointments could be made. Some of them do not look too kindly upon the machinery of the Local Appointments Commission, and not being satisfied with that machinery, some of them suggested that it should be some form of local committee, or some form of interview board.
It was on a previous stage of this measure that I made reference to the powers exercised by the managers all over the country in that regard, and I expressed my doubt and my fear and suspicion of that system, and I will express it again, because there are dangers in that system ten thousand times greater than the danger that a local body—a county council—might decide to appoint the son of a member of that body, or a brother of a member of that body. What is that system? Is it not the bringing together by some officials of a number of men within the area of the council itself or outside the area—in all cases mainly outside the area? Is it not apparent to any person who wants to look at the thing squarely that that system is full of dangers, and that the activities of secret societies and secret organisations of all kinds can come fully to play on it? As far as I am concerned, I would prefer a thousand times to have these minor appointments made by a free vote of the council, even though in a few cases they were not just perfect, rather than made by a type of machinery that some people seem to think might look well on the outside and which would be satisfactory to all concerned, and would be a source of protection to democracy. That is the very thing that would undermine it, that will produce a complete lack of confidence and trust. In fact, I would say, even the extent to which the power which managers have at the present time has been exercised through that system, has tended to shake considerably the confidence of many people who are watching it closely and intelligently.
As I say, when this proposal was first mooted I was not openly hostile to it. But when you give them that responsibility it is not out of the way to say: "Well, having given that responsibility we will allow you to devise the machinery by which you are going to collect rates". I did not intend to intervene in this discussion at all. My own mind was completely clear. As Deputy Allen and Deputy Brennan have said, it is natural, where members of a political Party have a majority, that majority will exercise its power. No matter how you appoint officials, are they not going to have political views anyhow? Take the Civil Service and the Local Appointments Commission. Did you ever hear of an official—I do not know of any— appointed through any machinery you may think of, who will not have a political view both before and after? What harm will it do him?
Deputy Allen said that the rate collectors do their work well. Deputy Brennan, from a different part of the country, said likewise. I come from more or less the same sort of area as Deputy Brennan. I have some experience of the work of rate collectors everywhere, and have met quite a few. I must speak of the general standard of intelligence and behaviour of these men from the point of view of appearance, conduct and capacity to do their work, irrespective of whether they were appointed because of a political ticket or not. They do their work well. The rates are brought in. If they do not take them in they pay the penalty. They have to provide an insurance bond. There is no danger to the local authority, no danger to anybody.
Here we are trying to pretend that we want everything raised above the political level. If the public could see those of us who are making that case they would know that we do not mean it, and that even in our own lives we do not mean it. I think if we gave, by example, more evidence of our support for that type of machinery, than by just a mere uttering of words in this House, it would be of far more benefit.