Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Mar 1955

Vol. 149 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

When introducing the Estimate for Forestry last June, I told the House of the clear indication which then existed that the Estimate had been undercast both in relation to wage increases which even at that early date were far heavier than had been anticipated, and in relation to the volume of essential work in the forests. Throughout the year the position was kept under observation to see what savings elsewhere in the Vote could be made available to offset the anticipated excess on labour expenditure and as Deputies will see substantial savings have been effected.

On the labour heads of sub-heads C (2) (Forest Development and Maintenance, etc.) and C (3) (Timber Conversion) extra sums totalling £38,500 are required. These are offset in part by a saving of £6,000 on labour on the maintenance head of sub-head C (2) which is included in the gross saving of £24,500 for that sub-head as shown in the details of the Estimate. The net additional sum required for forest workers' wages on sub-heads C (2) and C (3) is therefore £32,500 of which £18,750 flows directly from wage increases. The total expenditure on forest labour for the year is expected to be £968,500, representing an average employment of over 4,250 men.

The extra expenditure on cartage and freight is due mainly to increases in cartage contract rates and to the heavy programme of road construction undertaken this year. This is an item which is hard to estimate with accuracy.

For running expenses and repair of machinery on the capital expenditure head of sub-head C (2), an extra sum of £5,750 is needed in addition to the original provision of £23,000. Under an arrangement which became effective in the current year, the Office of Public Works is undertaking the repair and maintenance of most of the heavy plant utilised by the Forestry Division. Close examination of the plant by Office of Public Works engineers has revealed a necessity for heavier expenditure on repairs than had been allowed for in the original Estimate.

The aggregate additions to sub-heads C (2) and C (3) total £37,750, of which £25,240 can be met out of savings on other sub-heads.

I am glad to be able to draw attention to the fact that the remainder of the money needed can be made available by additional Appropriations-in-Aid. Considerable attention is being given to the development of improved markets for the produce of thinning operations, and I can now anticipate receipts from sales of timber exceeding by £10,500 the amount for which allowance was made in the original Estimate. An additional £2,000 is also to be derived from lettings of areas acquired and held in reserve for future planting.

I am, accordingly, asking the Dáil only for a Supplementary Vote of a token sum of £10 to enable the savings and increased revenue I have mentioned to be utilised to defray the extra expenditure on the main operational sub-heads of the Vote.

Mr. Derrig

Are we to take it that the remainder of the savings of £24,500 was on sub-head C (2) (1) which, I think, covers nurseries? The Minister referred to a saving, as I understood him, of some thousands of pounds on sub-head C (2) and sub-head C (3) but he did not explain how it arose that the remainder of the £24,500 was not expended during the year. Furthermore, is the saving on the nurseries, or in whatever other respect savings have been made, due to deliberate action on the part of the Department or to any circumstances beyond their control which have arisen during the year? I think that if there is a saving of £20,000 or thereabouts in connection with particular work such as nurseries, the House is entitled to an explanation of how it came about that that money was not expended.

It is satisfactory that the sales of timber are showing an improvement and that the Minister expects to have additional receipts during the year of £10,500. With the arrangements that have been made to expedite the general programme for thinning in the plantations and the administrative arrangements that have been made for the supervision of the marketing of the cuts, I am quite sure that benefit should accrue—particularly if, as seems likely, the timber imported into this country will not show any decline in price. It is a commodity, as far as we know, that is likely not alone to maintain its price but to increase in value. Under the arrangements that the Forestry Department have made and the fact that they will have additional supplies available for sale, I feel sure that there will be an increase in these sales and that the Vote will benefit by increased appropriations such as we now have.

Mr. MacBride

There is no State undertaking which deserves more attention and more approval than the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands. Forestry is probably an example of one of the sins of omission in respect of which successive Governments have been responsible. I always feel that the House should devote a lot more attention to forestry than it does.

As a nation, we lack raw materials save such raw materials as we can produce through agriculture but we have at hand the means of producing one of the most important raw materials in the world to-day, a raw material which is in increasing demand and the supply of which is decreasing. The price of timber in the course of the last 20 or 30 years shows that it has constantly increased and that the importance of timber as a raw material has been growing. As far back as 1902, I think, it was estimated that we had 1,250,000 acres of land suitable for forestry which was lying idle and unused.

In the past 30 years, since we secured control of our own affairs, we have succeeded in planting approximately only 150,000 to 160,000 acres. That is very far short of what the forestry policy of the State should have been. I think statistics show that we have a smaller area of timber lands than most other countries in Europe, though we have probably a more suitable climate for the growing of timber. Timber requires a mild, damp climate. We have that.

All Parties in the country have agreed, in theory at least, that forestry is of the utmost importance. Yet, for some extraordinary reason, it seems impossible to get the Department responsible to go at more than a snail's pace in the development of forestry. I am not blaming the present Minister for that. I think the Minister can be assured that he will receive the support of every Party in the House whenever he requires money for afforestation purposes. He has the land available to him. He has the money available to him, and he has the manpower; I am glad that there are 4,200 employed in forestry. But that is only a very small fraction of the number of people who could be employed in afforestation provided we were prepared to engage in large-scale forestry operations. For 30 years, or more, speeches such as the one I am making here this afternoon have been made both inside this House and outside it, but some kind of dead hand seems to prevent any progress in afforestation.

In 1949 I was instrumental in getting the then Government to come to a firm decision that a minimum plantation rate of 25,000 acres per annum should be embarked upon. That decision was not merely a Government decision; it was a decision which received the approval of this House and one which was embodied in the long-term programme prepared in connection with the spending of Marshall Aid. That policy was published in one of the White Papers approved by this House at that time. At page 22, paragraph 49, of a pamphlet entitled: "The European Recovery Programme —Ireland's Long-term Programme (1949-1953)", it is stated:—

"So far, reafforestation has been carried out only on a very small scale; in recent years the rate of planting in the State forests has been approximately 6,000 acres per year. It is proposed to step this up to 25,000 acres per year. The aim will be to plant 1,000,000 acres by annual increments of 25,000 acres. At maturity, and assuming an average yield of 3,500 cubic feet of timber per acre on a 50-year rotation, the annual return on a 25,000 acre felling will be of the order of 87.5 million cubic feet or approximately 350,000 standards of sawn timber."

Now that was the Government policy decided upon in 1949. In that same year that policy was submitted to this House and approved of by this House. We are still nearly 50 per cent. short of that target though, so far as I know, this House would be prepared to make available the money required to carry out such a programme. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that a Department of State is probably not the best way of furthering afforestation and that the time has come when the Minister should consider setting up an independent board, such as Bord na Móna or the E.S.B., to undertake afforestation.

It is quite obvious that if a Department of State has failed to carry out the wishes of this House, something must be done about that failure. A Department of State has failed to carry out the wishes of this House for one reason or another in connection with afforestation. Probably the network and the cobweb of red tape of one kind or another that surrounds the Civil Service renders a Civil Service department unsuitable for the carrying out of field operations of this kind. I would, therefore, take this opportunity to strongly urge upon the Minister a reconsideration of the present system or the finding of a new system so that the wishes of the Government and the wishes of this House can be given effect to, because they are not being given effect to at the present moment, in connection with afforestation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If I might interrupt the Deputy. It is not usual to discuss the whole field of forestry, for instance, on a Supplementary Estimate. The general policy of a Department is not discussed on such an Estimate.

Mr. MacBride

I appreciate that and I propose to leave the matter now. I merely raised the point so that the Minister might have an opportunity of considering the matter between now and the introduction of his Estimate and might be in a position then to put forward to the House some proposals to ensure that forestry will go ahead.

There is one other matter to which I would like to refer. It has often occurred to me that there should be some greater degree of co-operation between the Forestry Branch of the Department of Lands and the Department of Industry and Commerce in regard to the utilisation of timber. The Minister referred to that point himself and to the fact that good prices are now being obtained for timber. It occurs to me that the time has come when the question of setting up pulp mills and subsidiary industries based upon timber should be considered jointly by the Minister's Department and the Department of Lands. Reafforestation and the question of subsidiary industries fringe on the field of industry. I, of course, approve of any additional Estimate the Minister may require to carry out forestry operations. Indeed, I wish he was coming before the House for a much larger sum and I am quite satisfied that if he wants a much larger sum at any stage he will receive it from the House.

Mr. O'Hara

I agree with most of the viewpoints expressed here by Deputy MacBride. I am one of those who has come to the same conclusion as Deputy MacBride in relation to the progress made in reafforestation. Whatever has been holding up progress in the past, will, I hope, be got rid of at the earliest possible moment because it is both necessary and desirable that there should be progress.

Reafforestation is very important in particular in that part of the country that I represent, namely, the western areas. There is mass emigration from these areas. From the point of view of employment, reafforestation is a worthwhile project. I suppose it is no use crying over spilt milk, but previous Governments do not seem to have taken this matter of reafforestation seriously and they did not go ahead with it as they should have done. We have a very considerable acreage of poor land in the western areas which would be ideal for planting with timber. It is noteworthy that it is from these districts that there is the greatest percentage of emigration.

The House must appreciate the problem of the uneconomic holder with a £4, £5 or £6 valuation, and sometimes an even lower valuation, with no other income; it is quite understandable that such people must emigrate. If reafforestation was tackled in the way in which it should be tackled it would go a long way towards redressing that evil. I would like to impress on the Minister also the importance of increasing the amount of the grant to individuals, small farmers, perhaps, who have tracts of land which should be suitable for the planting of timber. I am sure there would be quite a number of such people in this country who would be prepared if they found it possible to go ahead with planting on their own. The difficulty seems to be, first of all, that the grant of £10 is insufficient. It is not sufficient encouragement to an individual to take on himself the responsibility of planting forest trees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid, Deputy, that is not relevant on a Supplementary Estimate, but it would be relevant on the main Estimate which comes before the House shortly.

Mr. O'Hara

I fully appreciate that, but I would just like to say for the Minister's consideration at this stage that we hope that the points of view which Deputy MacBride has advanced here will be seriously considered, and that the advisability of increasing the amount of the grant payable to individual small farmers who might be prepared to plant some timber would also be considered.

On the subject of technical advice, I would like to say briefly that the Minister should try as far as possible to make more technical advice available to such individuals. He can appreciate that we do not know what type of timber, or what type of tree would be suitable for planting in a particular area. I would stress the importance of trying to make such advice available to individuals who would be prepared to do something in this respect. I think if in an important matter of this kind the support and co-operation of such bodies as the county committees of agriculture could be enlisted, it would be most desirable.

Mr. J. Flynn

I am just raising one point. I do not want to go into the question of this scheme or the Estimate which will be introduced at a later date. I would like to make one point which I mentioned before by way of a question and that is the number of men employed in forestry schemes in South Kerry. The number, in some cases, is just a half dozen men in a very important scheme and in a congested district. I am speaking now of two districts in particular, Glenbeigh and Glencar, because quite a number of people emigrate from those two areas. We thought that when this scheme was being put through a couple of years ago a good many men would be employed and I would appeal to the Minister again to find some way of developing and extending the scheme so that an additional number of men can be employed in each of the districts to which I have referred. Great play is sometimes made about a forestry scheme and about taking over 1,000 or 3,000 acres of land as the case may be and then you will find after some 12 months or so that only five or six men are employed as a result of all those statements and that expenditure on fencing and so on.

I do not see the great benefit that is in so far as the unemployed are concerned. I would like, if at all possible, to have the programme readjusted if necessary so that whatever system is devised the men are employed stage by stage in the development of the forestry centre. I think we have now reached a stage in our part of South Kerry where the number of men could be increased and I would again ask the Minister to consider my proposals in that regard.

Mr. Blowick

To deal with the last speaker, Deputy Flynn, first—I want to tell him that Kerry is one of the counties where we are most anxious to develop forestry, north and south. It is also one of the counties where the acquisition of land is most difficult and several attempts to establish new forestry centres—to sow the seeds of forestry as it were—have not met with a great deal of success for this reason: that the farmers would not sell to us. Deputy Flynn mentioned the fact of five or six men being employed. I was not aware that the number in any forestry centre was as small as that. It occasionally happens that a forestry centre might have 1,000 acres here and 200 or 300 acres some miles away. At times it might be necessary for the forester to do certain essential work and break up his gang into two or three bunches so to speak to deal with different lots of work in a forest centre. That may be what is happening here. If that is not the explanation, I do not know, but I can inquire into it in the case of the areas he mentioned, Glencar and Glenbeigh, and see what is possible and let him know inside a week.

Deputy Derrig was anxious to get a break-down of the figures. Of £24,500 on sub-head C (2), the principal part of that is a lump of £13,000 approximately, detailed for the purpose of new machinery, but because certain— if I might call them so—experiments are taking place in other countries which we are closely watching here, we do not like to commit ourselves to machinery until we are absolutely certain that we will have the latest and most suitable type for the particular type of work we have to do. While we are anxious to get machinery we must still pay attention to the particular type required, and that results in a sum of approximately £13,000 which might have been expended if we had got that machinery last year.

The £3,500 also in sub-head C (2) for building came about because the cost of erection of certain buildings did not come to, or at least was less than, what was anticipated due to a drop in the cost of certain materials. On constructional expenditure and materials there was a saving of £1,500. On labour there was a saving of £6,000. Most of these are incidentals that will occur in a Department because where there are certain works laid down to be carried out it may not be possible to have them carried out. As Deputy Derrig knows, particularly in the case of labour, a very frosty winter or at least a winter with long spells of frost can completely upset expectations. There is a certain expectation of a certain number of weeks of frost and bad weather during which men cannot stay out working, but this winter was particularly bad and I am sorry to say there was a saving of approximately £6,000. That was due not to any fault of ours but entirely to weather during which the men could not stay out.

Among other savings there is one of £7,900 which is due to a delay in opening Kinnitty, because of certain improvement works being carried out which have not proceeded as rapidly as we thought. Most of the £7,900 is largely due to the fact that we were not able to put students into Kinnity; in other words, because it was not fit to receive them as early as we had expected.

To deal with other questions—I want Deputies MacBride and O'Hara to know that I am very anxious to push forestry and if Deputies MacBride and O'Hara are not satisfied with the rate of progress, neither am I. We have the money. I am quite sure from past experience—and that goes for practically every Minister for Lands that comes in here—that this House will never deny money to a Minister for Lands for forestry. I do not like to be saying this all the time but I am convinced (1) that we are the most treeless country in Europe and (2) that forestry can do more than any other thing to hold the people on the land.

I am afraid, due to the fact that we were conquered in years gone by, the people on the land, particularly in the poorer areas, cling to it. I have a first-class staff. I want to pay that compliment to the men in the Forestry Division. There is no shortage of money. The land is the great trouble. I hope, before the end of this summer recess, to introduce a certain measure that will help to increase the inflow of land.

Title is one of the big troubles and the areas in which we would like to push forestry the hardest are the areas in which the land is poorest and where people have their roots deepest in the land. It is not easy to ask a person who has been engaged in hill farming as it is called, who has had sheep and cattle on the hills, to sell the land to us and to take on employment with us in the forests. Such people look askance at such a proposition.

Deputy MacBride mentioned a board. There is a difficulty about a board. The E.S.B., for instance, and Bord na Móna, do not take land.

Mr. MacBride

Bord na Móna does.

Mr. Blowick

Bord na Móna takes bog. I must say that I would not like either the Forestry Division or the Land Commission to use the methods that I have known to be used on one particular occasion. The big difference between these two boards is that for the material they produce—electricity and turf—they can get revenue within six months. Bord na Móna cuts turf in March, April, May and June, and most of it is sold by the end of the following harvest. When the E.S.B. electrifies a rural area or town the revenue starts pouring in within ten weeks.

Forestry, because this is the most treeless country in the world, must be dealt with on a long-term policy. We have a very small, poor, miserable acreage of mature timber and have no big reserves. The Appropriations-inAid at the foot of the Estimate each year are very small due to the fact that our thinning acreage is small and the amount of mature timber we can sell is absolutely negligible.

Mr. MacBride

You get all the money you want from the House.

Mr. Blowick

I get all the money I want from the House. That is my trouble. I have the money. I have the staff. Unless we use compulsion to take the land, that is the whole trouble. I want to assure Deputies that there would be no trouble whatever in planting 25,000 acres a year if we could get the land. I have succeeded in stepping up the acreage immensely, up to 20,000 per year. That is very well and I hope to increase it still further, but I will not be content until we pass acquisition of 30,000 acres a year. There is bound to be a certain amount of unplantable ground in most of the areas we buy. Experience has taught us that, in order to get 25,000 plantable acres a year, the total acquisition would have to exceed 30,000 and maybe go as high as 33,000. I hope to do that.

I have every hope in forestry. If a difficulty that exists, because the Forestry Division must have clear title, could be overcome, most of the troubles in acquisition would be eliminated. A great deal of the land, particularly in mountainous areas, that we want for planting, is held in commonage. A commonage was offered to me in the last three months in the West of Ireland where there were no less than 48 tenants. I do not believe that four out of the 48 tenants had clear title. The title might go back to their grandfathers' time. That is the difficulty. These people want the money in their hands for the land. If I could overcome that difficulty, we would have no trouble whatever in attaining 33,000 acres a year intake of land, plantable and unplantable, and it would give us 25,000 acres a year planted, which is what I would like to see. Our country is purchasing enormous quantities of foreign timber each year, both timber and wood products.

Mr. MacBride

Fabulous.

Mr. Blowick

Fianna Fáil, when they were the Government, made a great cry about growing wheat in this country. That was all to the good—no Government wants to pay £1 for foreign wheat if they can produce it at home—but they failed miserably in regard to a crop which is equally important, that is, timber. We paid £9,000,000 last year for imported timber and wood products. There is no reason why we should not produce it at home. Wheat requires the very best land. Fortunately, timber will grow on medium or poorish land, as has been demonstrated time and again. For that reason I intend to push forestry as hard as possible.

The question of the user of land is red hot. Deputy MacBride said there was a dead hand somewhere. It is the love the people have for the land and their reluctance to part with it that is our big difficulty. I am afraid any Minister, if he goes to take land by force, would find that instead of there being a dead hand, it is very much alive and red hot.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I was very interested in a remark the Minister made about title difficulties and about bringing in a Bill. I understand the Minister said he will bring in a Bill later in the year.

Mr. Blowick

I am not promising but I may.

Mr. S. Flanagan

You may?

Mr. Blowick

I may, yes. I would be in hopes that I would be able to find some solution to the terrible drag that is on the acquisition of land because of title difficulties in every single case.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I come up against that from a different point of view. I hope the Minister will persevere with that intention because many of his problems could be solved by legislation designed to simplify the diffculties of his Department in regard to title in the acquisition of these lands. I was very interested in that.

Mr. Blowick

I have given a good deal of attention to it because the title difficulty in every case is the hold up in the Forestry Division. Any measure that would aim to ease that, as far as I see, would mean extinguishing the claims of many people to their holdings. Take a Mr. X who wants to sell a couple of hundred acres of mountain for planting. We would be anxious to buy. He finds that a number of his brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and their families in England and Australia have equal claim. The big difficulty is that legislation along those lines would have to aim at extinguishing the claims of these people.

I am examining at present whether such a measure would be just or not. If it would be unjust or if it would deal a hard blow to these people who have claims on the old sod, as they call it, I would be very slow to introduce such a measure. I would dearly like to see some way out of the present impasse.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I would strongly urge the Minister to have legislation of this kind drafted and let us have a whack at it to see what we can make of it.

Mr. Blowick

I assure the Deputy that it will not be easily done.

Vote put and agreed to.